On duty pistol vs off duty pistol

[Bigghoss]

I'm not sure how much this has been discussed but I'm not really sure how to search for it or really even how to title the thread. I did attempt to search and I found a kinda similar topic from 2012 but I was hoping to get some advice a little more specific to my situation. If it's a beat-to-death topic than let me throw myself on the mercy of PFC and beg forgiveness right now.

So for 11 years now I have worked as a civilian armed security guard for the Department of the Army. I carry a carbine and a bog-standard clapped-out Beretta M9 which I'm not allowed to change anything on and it must be carried empty chamber, safety on. Luckily I have large enough hands that I can work the backward-ass safety without any trouble. Ever since I got my concealed carry permit I've been carrying Glocks because I prefer striker fired guns. I probably should have figured this out a long time ago but I suspect it's probably not the best idea to do things that way, right? I should probably be carrying something off duty as close to my issued sidearm as possible. I did recently trade in my USP compact for a 92A1, my first personally owned gun in that family, so I could be practicing with something akin to my duty weapon. I was tempted to order of bunch of the upgrades for it from Beretta and/or Wilson but I'm starting to rethink that for the time being. Up until now I had been practicing with my old Ruger P95DC.

So should I change my off duty to match my on duty or am I overthinking this? I don't think I am since an M9 and a Glock 19 are so different.

I wouldn't mind a 92 compact but does it need to be the same family of handguns or would it be alright to stray from the 92 platform? I've also been eyeing the PX4 series and the subcompact model would be a nice option to have when I can't dress around a larger gun for whatever reason. I am also a fan of the S&W classics so getting one of those would be a treat. What other options might one consider? I also like the Ruger P-series but the mag release on the 9mm variants if different than any other handgun I'm aware of and it's hard to reach with my thumb.

Should I be carrying empty chamber, safety on like I'm required to on duty? I know it's handicapping myself but I would think the consistency would offset that to some degree.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated and I thank you for taking the time to read this post and help me unfuck myself.

[DocGKR]

When I carried a 92F, 5906, & 4566 on duty, I carried a 3913 off-duty.

When I carried a 5" steel 1911 on duty, I carried a LWC off-duty.

When I had a G17 on duty, I carried a G19 off-duty (although these days, I'd just use a G19 for both on and off duty should I ever be in that position again).

[OnionsAndDragons]

What is your primary weapon on duty?

If it is your carbine, I wouldn't worry overmuch. Just maintain that long gun.

I would definitely avoid carrying chamber empty on personal time, when your pistol is your primary and likely only firearm. There is some argument to going with a pistol that shares the same ergos and controls, like a different 92 or even a PX4 of some sort. It's likely best practice unless you perform significantly better with a different weapon.


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[TGS]

There's merit in carry the same thing on and off duty. If you do all your practice with your personal Glock, what is going to happen if you're on duty and something happens when you need your Condition 3 M9? Your manual of arms is very different. In my opinion there should be a modicum of similarity....even if it's a 92G carried hot.

With that said I wouldn't go out and buy a 92 right now given the Army is switching to the P320.

[Duelist]

As a civilian contract security guard (working at a stateside base?) you'll probably be carrying an M9 until after all the line units and combat support units and combat service support units and reserve units and NG units get new pistols. IOW, don't hold your breath.

I have a 92A1. I really like it. It's got a light on it and a 17 rd mag in it by my bed right now. As DocGKR suggests, unless I'm pocket carrying, I carry a 3913. I actually have two of them, and I'd consider another at the right price.

[Hambo]

Our policy was that you could carry anything from the duty list or BUG list off duty. If I had to guess I'd say that half carried their BUG off duty, and the other half split between carrying their duty gun or a gun from the same family (5906-3913, 1911-Commander, etc like Doc said above). No matter what they chose they were familiar with it and had qualified.

In your shoes I'd carry a 92 or maybe a PX4.

[Dave J]

A few random thoughts:

Used PD-trade in Beretta 92's are often available at reasonable prices. (try summitgunbroker.com.) I have an old Police Special that has done well for me as a training gun.

I haven't personally had to contend with chamber-empty carry, but I don't think I'd handicap myself all the time on account of work rules. If in your situation, I would try to condition myself so that a draw from a duty holster ALWAYS includes a slide rack. IMHO, the draw from concealment can be a different "mental program," as long as you put in the work to ingrain both.

FWIW, when I was in a situation a few years ago where I was using both Berettas and Glocks, I found the difference a little less bothersome if the Glock had a NY1/"-" trigger combo. I'd also find that my thumb was manipulating a non-existent decocker on the Glock when coming off target...I don't think I could have develop that habit if I wasn't also putting in sufficient reps with a Beretta.

Eventually, a 92 compact became my civilian carry gun for whenever my job likely involved deploying with an M9. I'm happy with where I'm at on that, although if I didn't already have the 92C I'd be thinking hard about a PX4CC.

Also, the new TC 3-23.35 explicitly states that the M9 is safe to carry decocked and safety off. That might help influence a change in policy at your work, if the leadership isn't stuck in "how I learned it in 1995" mode. (long shot, I know :))

[Lon]

My duty gun is a 229. My off duty is a CZ P07 because I wanted to stick with DA/SA like my duty gun. If I were you I'd look at a M9A1 Compact or the PX4CC. I think there's merit to keeping the same style pistol for duty/off duty.

[ST911]

I have DOD types (mil and civ) come through that carry M9s on their day jobs, but mid to full size Glocks as PT or reserve police officers and CCW'ers. Trigger control issues (beyond the norm) are common, as are warm-up periods and requals. Practice on both systems with deliberate and conscious trigger work helps. Issues with other controls on the gun are minimal if any. They're shooting neither to potential. Interestingly, there is less issue with when the daily M9 or 226 (mostly) is paired with a distinctly smaller striker counterpart like a G26, G43, Shield, etc. Those seem to produce their own wiring.

Get your choice(s) on a timer, target, and quantifiable standard and see what's up.

[Bigghoss]

Yeah, some of the guys wear excited about the switch to the Sig. Until I pointed out how long it took to fully replace the 1911 with the M9. I'm pretty sure I'll be in another job before us security guards get the new Sigs.

I just acquired a 92A1 and right now I could probably conceal it but I started a weight loss program a while back and it's working very well. I imagine by the end of the year I won't be able to do that very easily. Although maybe by that point my love handles will be gone and I could carry IWB/AIWB. I've seen a couple of the single stack S&W 3rd gen guns for not a whole lot of money so I might keep my eye out for another. The facility I'm at is slated to close in about 3-5 years, I haven't totally decided if I'm going to wait and take a transfer or start looking for another job with a different agency.

There has been talk that we might change how we carry the pistols. Until recently we were carrying our rifles with fucking chamber plugs in them. So there is hope that we might be able to at least start carrying with the safety off, very remote chance we might even go to loaded chamber, safety on. But working for the gov, I know not to expect anything until it actually happens. These fucking jackwagons still think that loading the mags totally full will damage the springs so we only have 10 rounds in our 15 round M9 mags. So I sure as hell ain't gonna hold my breath for loaded chambers.

So I guess I need to get a holster for my 92A1 and start shopping for a 92 compact and/or PX4 compact/subcompact. And condition myself to rack the slide and manipulate the safety from a duty holster but from concealment not to. I think I can manage that since I have to lift my cover garment. And I do have the carbine with me most of the time (Also safety on, empty chamber) but I can rack that and change the selector at the same time vs having to do them separately on a pistol.

So G-type or manual safety?

[Bigghoss]

I have DOD types (mil and civ) come through that carry M9s on their day jobs, but mid to full size Glocks as PT or reserve police officers and CCW'ers. Trigger control issues (beyond the norm) are common, as are warm-up periods and requals. Practice on both systems with deliberate and conscious trigger work helps. Issues with other controls on the gun are minimal if any. They're shooting neither to potential. Interestingly, there is less issue with when the daily M9 or 226 (mostly) is paired with a distinctly smaller striker counterpart like a G26, G43, Shield, etc. Those seem to produce their own wiring.

Get your choice(s) on a timer, target, and quantifiable standard and see what's up.

So if my off duty is something that has a drastically different feel to it (IE subcompact vs fullsize/compact) that seems to help the brain switch between the two? So I should probably change to my G26 off duty until I sort this out to help "switch" from duty mode to CC mode?

[TGS]

Yeah, some of the guys wear excited about the switch to the Sig. Until I pointed out how long it took to fully replace the 1911 with the M9. I'm pretty sure I'll be in another job before us security guards get the new Sigs.

I just acquired a 92A1 and right now I could probably conceal it but I started a weight loss program a while back and it's working very well. I imagine by the end of the year I won't be able to do that very easily. Although maybe by that point my love handles will be gone and I could carry IWB/AIWB. I've seen a couple of the single stack S&W 3rd gen guns for not a whole lot of money so I might keep my eye out for another. The facility I'm at is slated to close in about 3-5 years, I haven't totally decided if I'm going to wait and take a transfer or start looking for another job with a different agency.

There has been talk that we might change how we carry the pistols. Until recently we were carrying our rifles with fucking chamber plugs in them. So there is hope that we might be able to at least start carrying with the safety off, very remote chance we might even go to loaded chamber, safety on. But working for the gov, I know not to expect anything until it actually happens. These fucking jackwagons still think that loading the mags totally full will damage the springs so we only have 10 rounds in our 15 round M9 mags. So I sure as hell ain't gonna hold my breath for loaded chambers.

So I guess I need to get a holster for my 92A1 and start shopping for a 92 compact and/or PX4 compact/subcompact. And condition myself to rack the slide and manipulate the safety from a duty holster but from concealment not to. I think I can manage that since I have to lift my cover garment. And I do have the carbine with me most of the time (Also safety on, empty chamber) but I can rack that and change the selector at the same time vs having to do them separately on a pistol.

So G-type or manual safety?

Personally I'd do a G, but if you can reliably hit the safety on the draw under stress and are comfortable with it then I think it's in your best interests to run the 92A1 with the safety instead of converting to G.

[Duelist]

Personally, I like the idea of the decock only mod, but my TDA Beretta and S&W 3rd Gen pistols all have functioning safeties. YMMV.

[JTQ]

So I guess I need to get a holster for my 92A1 and start shopping for a 92 compact and/or PX4 compact/subcompact.
If you're used to the M9/92A1, the full size PX4 may seem small enough to be a concealment gun.

[Bigghoss]

I read about a method of disengaging the M9/92 safety where you kinda sweep the firing hand thumb forward and it cams the safety off rather than trying to get under it and push it up. And I have played around with that and it works for me and it seems a little quicker too so that's how I do it. I feel pretty confident working the safety but I know ideally a decock-only system is better if I weren't trying to work around my duty pistol.

[JTQ]

I read about a method of disengaging the M9/92 safety where you kinda sweep the firing hand thumb forward and it cams the safety off rather ...
This Tim Lau article in Modern Service Weapons?

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=15317

[Bigghoss]

If you're used to the M9/92A1, the full size PX4 may seem small enough to be a concealment gun.

My Ruger P95 is roughly the same size as a fullsize PX4 I think. Fullsize guns for me tend to print just a tiny bit at the very butt of the gun. Not enough for most people to tell it's a gun but gun savvy folks would probably pick up on it. It helps that I don't wear any gun swag out and about. All my hats and T-shirts are free of logos or slogans and my daily driven vehicle doesn't have stickers on it. My '84 Blazer that doesn't get driven as much does have a couple NRA stickers and some general redneck/patriotic stickers so I should probably scrape those even though the truck still screams "country boy/redneck" without and decoration. Who else would drive a Chevy square body 4x4?

[Bigghoss]

This Tim Lau article in Modern Service Weapons?

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=15317

I don't believe it was that specific article but it is that method. I bend my thumb more but that way WORKS. Talk about a game-changer.

[1slow]

I agree no gun/training/martial bumper stickers or T shirts. Why give the enemy extra data.

[Bigghoss]

It also helps that my trucks look like crap and that I can't afford anything of value so there'd be nothing to steal. Reality is I just like older trucks and not making payments.

[walker2713]

"....start looking for another job with a different agency."

Given the condition under which you're currently treated by the "jackwads" at your facility, I'd suggest it's not too soon to get started looking for another position, maybe in LE.

Condition 3 pistols, chamber plugs in carbines?

Sheeesh!:rolleyes:

[psalms144.1]

I dislike mixing/matching action types (DA/SA and SFA and/or SAO). I really dislike carrying weapons of such dissimilarity that I might be confused by manual of arms, handling/pointing, etc.

In your shoes, a "perfect" choice would be a 92C - but those are rare as hen's teeth. The PX4 Compact might be the best option to be as close as possible to your daily carry. I agree the M9 is on the largish side for daily off-duty concealed carry, but you might be able to pull it off with the right holster and covering garment.

[psalms144.1]

Given the condition under which you're currently treated by the "jackwads" at your facility, I'd suggest it's not too soon to get started looking for another position, maybe in LE.

Condition 3 pistols, chamber plugs in carbines?

Sheeesh!:rolleyes:When I was still on Active Duty with the Army, our DOD police had to carry only 10 rounds in their M9s, to "comply with the magazine restrictions of the Assault Weapon Ban." So, condition 3, 10 rounds of 9mm FMJ in the magazine - PERFECTLY ready to defend themselves and the base...

[walker2713]

When I was still on Active Duty with the Army, our DOD police had to carry only 10 rounds in their M9s, to "comply with the magazine restrictions of the Assault Weapon Ban." So, condition 3, 10 rounds of 9mm FMJ in the magazine - PERFECTLY ready to defend themselves and the base...

Yeah! I forgot about the 10 rounds in a 15 round magazine! Maybe in NJ or NY they'd only have 7? Or something? Hardball of course.

[psalms144.1]

Yeah! I forgot about the 10 rounds in a 15 round magazine! Maybe in NJ or NY they'd only have 7? Or something? Hardball of course.Shortly after the passage of the NY SAFE act, the contract security officers at the Federal Court for the Southern District of New York were told they had to download their 15-round G19 magazines to hold only 7 rounds. Not sure how long that stupidity lasted, but it was in force for the two weeks of the trial I was attending...

[walker2713]

Shortly after the passage of the NY SAFE act, the contract security officers at the Federal Court for the Southern District of New York were told they had to download their 15-round G19 magazines to hold only 7 rounds. Not sure how long that stupidity lasted, but it was in force for the two weeks of the trial I was attending...

I think we have two choices:

1) The people who make these rules are cluelessly stupid;

2) They're working for the other side.

[SamAdams]

Option 3 -

Career bureaucrats who absolutely won't stick their necks out and risk personal paycheck and pension, no matter how stupid something is.


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[Dave J]

When I was still on Active Duty with the Army, our DOD police had to carry only 10 rounds in their M9s, to "comply with the magazine restrictions of the Assault Weapon Ban." So, condition 3, 10 rounds of 9mm FMJ in the magazine - PERFECTLY ready to defend themselves and the base...

Sweet baby Jesus, that is...well, unfortunately not all that surprising. I knew C3 carry was a common requirement back in the day, but had never heard of forced magazine downloading until now.

If it makes you feel any better, the DoD police at my home station back in CONUS use Condition 1, and even had a policy in place supporting concealed carry of privately owned weapons to and from work per LEOSA, so things seem to have improved somewhat, at least in some places.

[SamAdams]

Would not surprise me in the least if federal protection details for politicians were exempt from such restrictions.


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[Dave J]

So G-type or manual safety?

I strongly prefer G-types, but in your situation, you should absolutely keep your training gun as a safety/decocker F-type, IMHO.

Reason being, that slide rack you have to do coming out of the holster has a high probability of inadvertently activating the safety. If you train with a "G" model, you'll never know when that would have happened, nor can you effectively practice manipulations that help avoid at.

[Duelist]

I don't believe it was that specific article but it is that method. I bend my thumb more but that way WORKS. Talk about a game-changer.

There's a video of Ernie Langdon demonstrating that. Very good stuff!

[Bigghoss]

I strongly prefer G-types, but in your situation, you should absolutely keep your training gun as a safety/decocker F-type, IMHO.

Reason being, that slide rack you have to do coming out of the holster has a high probability of inadvertently activating the safety. If you train with a "G" model, you'll never know when that would have happened, nor can you effectively practice manipulations that help avoid at.

I meant for my carry gun. I plan on having a manual safety on the gun I use to replicate my duty pistol for training/practice. Once during a force-on-force exercise with sim rounds I shot the mag dry and did an emergency reload and activated the safety while racking the slide. I really dislike the slide safety levers

[OnionsAndDragons]

I read about a method of disengaging the M9/92 safety where you kinda sweep the firing hand thumb forward and it cams the safety off rather than trying to get under it and push it up. And I have played around with that and it works for me and it seems a little quicker too so that's how I do it. I feel pretty confident working the safety but I know ideally a decock-only system is better if I weren't trying to work around my duty pistol.

Someone mentioned a video of Ernest demonstrating this a bit up thread.

When I asked about the safety design in a class EL informed me that it was designed to be used that way. The main issue is that people with medium to smaller hands often have a lot of trouble with the design.

It seems that with medium hands, one can train to cam the safety with the thumb pad, but the technique really works optimally for people with decent sized mitts.


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[GardoneVT]

All things considered equally, I'd advocate the OP carry concealed in the same manner they do on duty, which regrettably means accommodating the C3 regulations.

That's because under stress is not a time for deep cognitive thought,such as trying to remember which form of carry you're using at that moment. Carrying a Beretta chamber loaded and hammer down calls for a different draw type then carrying chamber empty and racking the slide through the draw as you'd have to do on duty.Mix them up and you'll have problems in either circumstance.

Getting your management to sign off on chamber loaded carry sounds like a bureaucratic nonstarter, so you'll have to work around the C3 requirement. I've found racking the slide by using the muzzle cuts on a 92 with the thumb and forefinger are a good technique which avoids the "safety snafu" the F models can have.

[BehindBlueI's]

Personally, I'd not carry C3 off duty. That's stupid. Just train so that the default to racking the slide. That way if you go into auto-pilot the only thing you've done is cost yourself one cartridge.

I carry a TDA Sig, but still have to occasionally qualify on the Glock. I hit the invisible decock on the Glock before I holster. Decocking is my "default" because of how I've trained, I have to think about it to do something different. Train that way to rack the slide. It's a "no lose" option, as opposed to failing to rack when you needed to (or failing to decock when you should have).

Some "combos" are easier than others to find that "no lose" option. Sig and Glock work well together, Sig and 1911 not so much. Think the motions through, find what's compatible, and go for it. Sticking with the same family, preferably same sights and same grip angle, makes a lot of sense to me. Sticking with the same empty chamber carry does not.

[Bigghoss]

Some good food for thought on both accounts. I'll have to chew on that a while.

[GardoneVT]

Personally, I'd not carry C3 off duty. That's stupid. Just train so that the default to racking the slide. That way if you go into auto-pilot the only thing you've done is cost yourself one cartridge.

I carry a TDA Sig, but still have to occasionally qualify on the Glock. I hit the invisible decock on the Glock before I holster. Decocking is my "default" because of how I've trained, I have to think about it to do something different. Train that way to rack the slide. It's a "no lose" option, as opposed to failing to rack when you needed to (or failing to decock when you should have).

Some "combos" are easier than others to find that "no lose" option. Sig and Glock work well together, Sig and 1911 not so much. Think the motions through, find what's compatible, and go for it. Sticking with the same family, preferably same sights and same grip angle, makes a lot of sense to me. Sticking with the same empty chamber carry does not.

Im not trying to kick off an E-pissing match by saying this,but I think we can agree the policy of C3 carry is the stupid part here,not the measures he needs to work around it.

That established ,racking the slide regardless would accomplish no benefit for him with a loaded gun,as the value of carrying hot is being able to draw and fire immediately. He can't train to do so lest on duty he points an empty weapon at a threat. So he'd have loaded the gun for nothing.

Also- wouldn't an unfired round recovered at the scene of a defensive incident complicate the legal response? As in bad guy (or his attorney) cooks up a story the OP racked his gun as a display of aggression ?

[TGS]

Im not trying to kick off an E-pissing match by saying this,but I think we can agree the policy of C3 carry is the stupid part here,not the measures he needs to work around it.

That established ,racking the slide regardless would accomplish no benefit for him with a loaded gun,as the value of carrying hot is being able to draw and fire immediately. He can't train to do so lest on duty he points an empty weapon at a threat. So he'd have loaded the gun for nothing.

FWIW I don't think you're creating a pissing match. This sort of critical thinking and discussion is exactly the kind of stuff that Tom is always hoping we'll have. :)

I am in 100% agreement with BBIs. The ramification of carrying C3 off duty where his sidearm is his only weapon heavily outweigh the ramifications of carrying hot and having to carry C3 on duty where the pistol is his secondary weapon, and he has friends with guns to back him up.

He didn't load his gun for nothing if he needs that round in the chamber during an entanglement, one handed draw, etc.


Also- wouldn't an unfired round recovered at the scene of a defensive incident complicate the legal response? As in bad guy (or his attorney) cooks up a story the OP racked his gun as a display of aggression ?

That would be easily explained given his agency mandated TTPs versus his now memorialized decision making process to carry hot. I am not a murder investigator like BBIs, but add in an expert witness to testify on "defaulting to your training" and my answer is that's not something that will hold water.

[GardoneVT]

FWIW I don't think you're creating a pissing match. This sort of critical thinking and discussion is exactly the kind of stuff that Tom is always hoping we'll have. :)

I am in 100% agreement with BBIs. The ramification of carrying C3 off duty where his sidearm is his only weapon heavily outweigh the ramifications of carrying hot and having to carry C3 on duty where the pistol is his secondary weapon, and he has friends with guns to back him up.

He didn't load his gun for nothing if he needs that round in the chamber during an entanglement, one handed draw, etc.



That would be easily explained given his agency mandated TTPs versus his now memorialized decision making process to carry hot. I am not a murder investigator like BBIs, but add in an expert witness to testify on "defaulting to your training" and my answer is that's not something that will hold water.

This presents training complications for the OP then.

He must now religiously train two different drawstrokes for two different carry methods ,and drill down which method to use under stress. Otherwise Problems.

At that point he may as well go with a different pistol entirely from the M9 for off duty carry,as the manual of arms will be totally different between C1 and C3.

[TGS]

Would not surprise me in the least if federal protection details for politicians were exempt from such restrictions.


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Well, we're LEOs....so yeah, we typically can carry according to the law, which given our statutory existence means we can carry however and whatever our agency sees fit.

Sometimes somebody up at the top ruins the fun, so you won't see us get out of our vehicles in Manhattan with M203s and HE anymore. :(



At that point he may as well go with a different pistol entirely from the M9 for off duty carry,as the manual of arms will be totally different between C1 and C3.

I thought about that too, but my answer is that more commonality the better (*up to a certain point), and the draw is only one part of the gunfight....there are still other manipulations (namely decocking) that will be the same once the shooting starts.

Yes, I agree that "otherwise problems." It's not an optimal situation to be in, but carrying C3 with your only gun off-duty, likely without backup, raises the severity on the risk matrix versus having backup (likely next to you for most posts) and having a fuckup with your secondary. In the grand scheme of things, the adherence to commonality between off-duty and on-duty at that point is detrimental*.

Not to go all reductio ad absurdum on your butt, but when they still had chamber flags on duty should he have carried his AR15 with a chamber flag when hunting varmints? I mean, commonality, right?

ETA 900th time: Sorry for the constant edits and stream of consciousness. I'm going on 6 hours of sleep for the last 2.5 days.

[GardoneVT]

The biggest problem I see with C3 is timing. In many personal defense scenarios having a loaded gun ready might not be fast enough to matter depending on circumstance. C3 for a personal defense situation off duty isn't much better then no gun at all from that perspective.

BUT, comma, training two different scenarios also poses a risk. It is part of why a "carry rotation" isn't the best practice for CCW,because different guns behave differently depending on their setups. The OP could carry C1 off duty/C3 on,but then he'd have to define when to draw and when to rack slide as part of the draw. He'd also have to change his admin handling habits - and it would be far too easy for the OP to load his Beretta at work C1 by accident because that's what he does with his Beretta at home or carry C3 by mistake off duty.

It's my understanding an admin handling fuckup like that would be punished disproportionately severely ; so this isn't a concern to dismiss.

[BehindBlueI's]

I am in 100% agreement with BBIs. The ramification of carrying C3 off duty where his sidearm is his only weapon heavily outweigh the ramifications of carrying hot and having to carry C3 on duty where the pistol is his secondary weapon, and he has friends with guns to back him up.


Right. Security carry on a military installation is completely different than walking around street crime. I had to carry C3 when I worked for DynCorp. I understand why. Not just due to AD concerns, but because the easiest way for an unarmed TCN to arm themselves after going through checkpoints was to jump a guard. Retention was significantly more important, as was making the weapon harder to use if they did get it from you. You were not alone, you would not have to grapple for any extended period of time, and you had buddies who could shoot some asshole off you. I trained to draw C3, but when I was home I did not carry C3...because that's stupid when you're outside that sort of environment.


Im not trying to kick off an E-pissing match by saying this,but I think we can agree the policy of C3 carry is the stupid part here,not the measures he needs to work around it.

That established ,racking the slide regardless would accomplish no benefit for him with a loaded gun,as the value of carrying hot is being able to draw and fire immediately. He can't train to do so lest on duty he points an empty weapon at a threat. So he'd have loaded the gun for nothing.

I don't think you understand my training to a default comments. You can train so that if that if you go on auto-pilot you go to the "do no harm" option. In this case, racking the slide. If you do have time to think, simply don't rack it and get the benefits of carrying a functional weapon. If you don't you revert to the default and the only thing you are out is one cartridge. If you can't do that, carry a revolver. The completely different feel makes it much easier to know what to do when you pull.

I'll put this as plainly as I can. C3 is stupid in all but a few limited environments. Whatever tiny gain you think you are getting to carry C3 off duty isn't worth it. Any trade off you can make to avoid C3 carry is worth it. I'd carry a revolver ready to fire any time over a pistol that's not ready to fire. I've seen too many people lose because they didn't or couldn't get a round chambered due to time constraints, grappled, etc. Encouraging someone who can safely carry a handgun to carry C3 for the purposes of self defense is encouraging them to do something that can get them hurt or killed.

[GardoneVT]

Right. Security carry on a military installation is completely different than walking around street crime. I had to carry C3 when I worked for DynCorp. I understand why. Not just due to AD concerns, but because the easiest way for an unarmed TCN to arm themselves after going through checkpoints was to jump a guard. Retention was significantly more important, as was making the weapon harder to use if they did get it from you. You were not alone, you would not have to grapple for any extended period of time, and you had buddies who could shoot some asshole off you. I trained to draw C3, but when I was home I did not carry C3...because that's stupid when you're outside that sort of environment.



I don't think you understand my training to a default comments. You can train so that if that if you go on auto-pilot you go to the "do no harm" option. In this case, racking the slide. If you do have time to think, simply don't rack it and get the benefits of carrying a functional weapon. If you don't you revert to the default and the only thing you are out is one cartridge. If you can't do that, carry a revolver. The completely different feel makes it much easier to know what to do when you pull.

I'll put this as plainly as I can. C3 is stupid in all but a few limited environments. Whatever tiny gain you think you are getting to carry C3 off duty isn't worth it. Any trade off you can make to avoid C3 carry is worth it. I'd carry a revolver ready to fire any time over a pistol that's not ready to fire. I've seen too many people lose because they didn't or couldn't get a round chambered due to time constraints, grappled, etc. Encouraging someone who can safely carry a handgun to carry C3 for the purposes of self defense is encouraging them to do something that can get them hurt or killed.

We are saying the same thing here. Frankly the OP may be better off with a revolver for off duty use.

I say that because OP might not have enough time to think "at home- draw and shoot" vs "at work- rack slide first" mid assault .There's a nonzero chance he'd (or any of us) could mix those steps up with detrimental consequences. That's also omitting the admin handling risk of chambering a round when he's not supposed to ,with damaging career consequences.

A revolver is different enough from a Beretta that he can just grab it without prior manipulation of the weapon ,and there's little risk of an admin handling error that could get the OP written up or censured.

[TCB]

I carry HK's at work (P2000) and off duty (VP9sk) and shoot a VP9 for training to maintain commonality for manipulations (mag release). I shoot a 1911 & a 2011 extensively in competition. I've never had a problem knowing what gun I was carrying and have not defaulted to trying to drop the mag on my work/carry/training guns like I do on my competition guns or vice versa. Triggers go to the rear, sights should be aligned and on your PID'd target...it's not rocket surgery. I don't think switching back and forth between platforms is as big of an issue as we think it might be? If you can't differentiate between platforms and how to properly manipulate them under stress, should you really be making a deadly force decision under stress? This isn't directed at anyone...just sayin'...something to consider?

[Bigghoss]

Accidentally chambering a round at work is a non-issue. We load at a clearing barrel under the guidance of a supervisor. You hand him the mags, close the bolt/let the slide go forward then he hands the mag to you to insert in the weapon. If somehow I were to accidentally chamber a round it would be handled right there and not be a big deal so long as I didn't also have an ND.

I think I'm leaning toward's BBIs' suggestion of carry loaded off duty but lean more heavily on practicing racking the slide. On duty I have a level III holster, off would be a level I from concealment so I already have to practice two different draws. On duty I'll have a carbine, off I won't and any time I don't have a carbine there are people standing right there. If I'm entering a situation that even the slightest bit sketchy I can take a sec to chamber a round and backup would already be on the way if not there already. If, for example, I have to pull over a vehicle that's not authorized to be somewhere I call it in and dispatch will have at least one other patrol en route.

My main concern when I started this thread was that how I carry off duty would end up hindering me if I needed to draw on duty. But I'm realizing now that if I need to draw my pistol on duty there's most likely already somebody fighting on my behalf.

TCB, the main issue in my situation isn't really shooting the different guns, it's how drastically different the draws are. From disengaging the safety and racking the slide on a DS/SA to pulling a striker from concealment. I can put the rounds on target reasonably well with any of the guns I own. Maybe you're right, so long as I minimize the platforms and carry methods I devote effort to, I might be able to train enough to be able to perform ether task on demand without fumbling. After reading the 9mm outdoor load thread and getting Critical Duty ammo in my normal carry gun I can probably give up on DA revolvers as a platform I need to maintain proficiency with. I still feel like maybe, for me, it would be best if I try to minimize the differences as much as reasonable.

After reading the responses I think I'm going to pick up a compact or subcompact DA/SA gun with a slide safety as soon as feasible. I'll probably go with a Safariland als holster as it's also kind of similar to the Safariland holster they will be issuing to me soon. And I'm leaning towards carrying safety on because I know the technique for getting it off and I feel comfortable with it. Or at least getting myself in the habit of swiping it off, even if it's not engaged or I end up with a decock only. Off duty I'll carry with a loaded chamber but I'll put more emphasis on my on-duty draw so hopefully if I mess up it'll be adding a step I don't need to instead of forgetting one. At least that's what I'm thinking. More input is always welcome and I would like to thank all of you very much for taking the time to help me.

[Hambo]

And I'm leaning towards carrying safety on because I know the technique for getting it off and I feel comfortable with it. Or at least getting myself in the habit of swiping it off, even if it's not engaged or I end up with a decock only. Off duty I'll carry with a loaded chamber but I'll put more emphasis on my on-duty draw so hopefully if I mess up it'll be adding a step I don't need to instead of forgetting one. At least that's what I'm thinking. More input is always welcome and I would like to thank all of you very much for taking the time to help me.

Just because the current trend in DA/SA is to use the decocker/safety as a decocker only does not meanit was always so. I remember noticing one sergeant whose 5906 was carried safety off and thinking, "What's up with this guy?" (He didn't wear a vest either, so I had a lot of WTF thoughts about him) Like you my hands are large and it's not a big deal to disengage the safety and I trained myself that way for years. Of course now I'm cool and all my 92s have been converted to G models.

[Clobbersaurus]

Accidentally chambering a round at work is a non-issue. We load at a clearing barrel under the guidance of a supervisor. You hand him the mags, close the bolt/let the slide go forward then he hands the mag to you to insert in the weapon. If somehow I were to accidentally chamber a round it would be handled right there and not be a big deal so long as I didn't also have an ND.

I think I'm leaning toward's BBIs' suggestion of carry loaded off duty but lean more heavily on practicing racking the slide. On duty I have a level III holster, off would be a level I from concealment so I already have to practice two different draws. On duty I'll have a carbine, off I won't and any time I don't have a carbine there are people standing right there. If I'm entering a situation that even the slightest bit sketchy I can take a sec to chamber a round and backup would already be on the way if not there already. If, for example, I have to pull over a vehicle that's not authorized to be somewhere I call it in and dispatch will have at least one other patrol en route.

My main concern when I started this thread was that how I carry off duty would end up hindering me if I needed to draw on duty. But I'm realizing now that if I need to draw my pistol on duty there's most likely already somebody fighting on my behalf.

TCB, the main issue in my situation isn't really shooting the different guns, it's how drastically different the draws are. From disengaging the safety and racking the slide on a DS/SA to pulling a striker from concealment. I can put the rounds on target reasonably well with any of the guns I own. Maybe you're right, so long as I minimize the platforms and carry methods I devote effort to, I might be able to train enough to be able to perform ether task on demand without fumbling. After reading the 9mm outdoor load thread and getting Critical Duty ammo in my normal carry gun I can probably give up on DA revolvers as a platform I need to maintain proficiency with. I still feel like maybe, for me, it would be best if I try to minimize the differences as much as reasonable.

After reading the responses I think I'm going to pick up a compact or subcompact DA/SA gun with a slide safety as soon as feasible. I'll probably go with a Safariland als holster as it's also kind of similar to the Safariland holster they will be issuing to me soon. And I'm leaning towards carrying safety on because I know the technique for getting it off and I feel comfortable with it. Or at least getting myself in the habit of swiping it off, even if it's not engaged or I end up with a decock only. Off duty I'll carry with a loaded chamber but I'll put more emphasis on my on-duty draw so hopefully if I mess up it'll be adding a step I don't need to instead of forgetting one. At least that's what I'm thinking. More input is always welcome and I would like to thank all of you very much for taking the time to help me.

I think you would be pleased with the PX4 series. I have found the PX4 and 92 series guns to be very complimentary in terms of transitioning platforms. They index very similar on the draw and the controls are almost identical in terms of practical use. The PX4's grip is slimmer and you have the option of switching the safety levers to the 92 series with the PX4. Try one out at a gun store. I think you will be very happy with it.

Here's a pic that shows the size of a Full Size PX4 vs a 92 Centurion
http://i.imgur.com/MWbbz6f.jpg

[Bigghoss]

So again I would like to thank everyone for their time and advice. Went shopping today and found a decent 3914. Got it for just under $320 out the door. Midway has mags on sale for $26 and change so I'll grab a handful and a new recoil spring. Should get me by until I get a PX4 or 92 compact.

https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19274947_10155152273005219_5695245360699066003_n.j pg?oh=acf46b936e2de2c44293eb2251990fb4&oe=59D52BB3
https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19396978_10155152273080219_2589735723837670611_n.j pg?oh=6e125549e1ee1dd0b7285d52ac0ef0fa&oe=59CC9505