Paul Van Dunk Video re recoil control

[JHC]

I found this thought provoking. Not being extremely adept at recoil control I try to keep and open mind re methods.

I will try to play around with this concept in dry fire and some live fire when the monsoons pass.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/02/different-approach-handgun-recoil-management/

[CCT125US]

Similar concept to Vogel seen below at the 3:20 mark. Different visual demo, but technique appears very similar.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc

[Surf]

This is a.not so uncommon technique and I use it. We or at least I have discussed this technique here in a few various threads about grip and push / pull vs side to side pressures. Definitely a good visual descriptor of the technique as it is harder to convey in just written form.

I often tell people to make a thumbs forward grip without a gun in hand. Good forward wrist can't and while keeping the thumbs straight and forward roll your grip inward as if your trying to cross your thumb over thumb. I also think of putting a bit of flare in the elbows as if you are trying to point them outward. It is hard to describe, but the stick thing is a good visual.

[JHC]

This is a.not so uncommon technique and I use it. We or at least I have discussed this technique here in a few various threads about grip and push / pull vs side to side pressures. Definitely a good visual descriptor of the technique as it is harder to convey in just written form.

I often tell people to make a thumbs forward grip without a gun in hand. Good forward wrist can't and while keeping the thumbs straight and forward roll your grip inward as if your trying to cross your thumb over thumb. I also think of putting a bit of flare in the elbows as if you are trying to point them outward. It is hard to describe, but the stick thing is a good visual.

Oh yes, well remembered reads.

The thing here that made me go hmmm was based on the sticks as a prop to form an X and some of his gestures making a prying up sort of motion from opposing sides. If I interpreted him correctly.

I thought that injected a slightly different dimension to the elbows out and pec squeezing ideas.

[Mr Pink]

That's pretty interesting. I advocate something similar, but instead of twisting the hands in, I'll often tell students to twist their palms together as if they were throttling a motorcycle or wringing out a towel.

[JHC]

Similar concept to Vogel seen below at the 3:20 mark. Different visual demo, but technique appears very similar.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc

Roger that but I've previously interpreted (perhaps mistakenly) his counter pressure to be opposing on a generally flat horizontal plane with torque; again in the same plane. Watching it again I do see some similarity. It might just have been Van Dunk's crossed sticks that got the point through my head.

[blues]

Good discussion and timely as I've been giving thought to grip mechanics of late.

[octagon]

Roger that but I've previously interpreted (perhaps mistakenly) his counter pressure to be opposing on a generally flat horizontal plane with torque; again in the same plane. Watching it again I do see some similarity. It might just have been Van Dunk's crossed sticks that got the point through my head.

If I am understanding your understanding of Vogel's technique I think you had it right from the beginning. In the class he came around and had each student hold the gun strong hand only. He then grips the gun with his support hand and so you can feel the amount and direction of torque or pressure. When it was my turn I only found inward at the top pressure on the horizontal plane right at the slide to frame line. I was surprised by how much pressure he used and it is part of what I am changing and working on.

[Rex G]

Interesting.

[Surf]

That's pretty interesting. I advocate something similar, but instead of twisting the hands in, I'll often tell students to twist their palms together as if they were throttling a motorcycle or wringing out a towel.

Try using both methods at the same time. I set the lock with my support hand, side to side clamp or wringing a towel and roll the support thumb and index finger into the slide. It almost seems counter initiative as the heels of the hands want to separate from the grip but will not if your lock is set cortect. It gives me a bit more leverage on the pistol. I have some injury issues in both upper limbs and this helps me.

[CCT125US]

I have found it is not just about "crossing the sticks" but the lateral pressure applied by the pinky and ring fingers into the sides of the grip. My constant struggle is getting to the desired grip in a timely manner. More thought later from a full keyboard.

[luckyman]

...It almost seems counter [intuitive] as the heels of the hands want to separate from the grip but will not if your lock is set correct. It gives me a bit more leverage on the pistol. I have some injury issues in both upper limbs and this helps me.

I highly appreciate this comment. This (counter-intuitive bit about heels of hands theoretically wanting to separate) has been an ongoing niggling worry of mine re: if I was doing it wrong or not.

[Mr Pink]

Try using both methods at the same time. I set the lock with my support hand, side to side clamp or wringing a towel and roll the support thumb and index finger into the slide. It almost seems counter initiative as the heels of the hands want to separate from the grip but will not if your lock is set cortect. It gives me a bit more leverage on the pistol. I have some injury issues in both upper limbs and this helps me.
Thanks. I'll give that a try!

[blues]

I'm going to work on some tips gleaned from Vogel and Defoor with my G26, and maybe the G19 as well, today. They both seem to stress a very similar grip technique.

Thanks again, Joe, for bringing up this topic. It's something I've been wanting to concentrate on of late.

[nwhpfan]

Works for some....not for me. I tried this years go and found the lower portion of my off hand grip slowly squirming off. For me the key to the grip is the clamping with the bottom three fingers and treating the hand like a vice giving equal pressure.

[JustOneGun]

I have found it is not just about "crossing the sticks" but the lateral pressure applied by the pinky and ring fingers into the sides of the grip. My constant struggle is getting to the desired grip in a timely manner. More thought later from a full keyboard.




This is important to remember. I like to use the pressing of the hands together because it works for most people no matter what their grip.

His is an interesting way to view it. With a thumbs forward grip where the thumb is way forward the twisting/crossing of sticks seems to force the support thumb, more forward, drives the support ring and pinkie finger into the bottom of the grip and slightly loosens the pinkie and ring finger of my primary hand. I could work almost like relaxing the primary hand and tightening the support.

When I tried it with the thumb about even with my trigger finger (like many new people find easier) it could cause problems. Like many newer shooters who have problems with the grip slipping. If your support thumb is about even with your trigger finger on the grip twisting as he advocates causes me to shoot like I was holding a mouse gun. My pinkie and ring fingers of both hands just don't do much. If one has a thumbs way forward grip then it works pretty well.

Just something to remember depending on how forward one's thumb is with their thumbs forward grip.

[David S.]

I'll have to mess with this. For some reason I always interpreted it as applying even lateral pressure, like you were using a peck deck.

[BJXDS]

Interesting, as i am always searching for better recoil management. I tried Vogels method, and it works when I can take the time to properly acquire it, but it is slow and uncomfortable for me. Honestly I am not sure if I have a recoil management issue or a sight tracking issue, probably both. Less movement would definitely make it easier to track the sights. The never ending journey continues.

[blues]

Interesting, as i am always searching for better recoil management. I tried Vogels method, and it works when I can take the time to properly acquire it, but it is slow and uncomfortable for me. Honestly I am not sure if I have a recoil management issue or a sight tracking issue, probably both. Less movement would definitely make it easier to track the sights. The never ending journey continues.

I found the same thing. I have to think through the process vs. the way I naturally draw and shoot from an OWB holster at qualifications or from concealment. I may experiment with it further but I'm not convinced based upon my hand size, structure and some injuries over the years, that it's necessarily a good fit for me.

I did find it pretty accurate for both slow and rapid fire when I set the grip up, however.

[YVK]

Lifting elbows up drives thenar eminences into a grip without moving the lower portion of hands away from the grip, at least, not nearly as much as wrist twisting motion does.

[CCT125US]

Lifting elbows up drives thenar eminences into a grip without moving the lower portion of hands away from the grip, at least, not nearly as much as wrist twisting motion does.

Also known as the ball of the thumb for those who don't want to google.

[JustOneGun]

Also known as the ball of the thumb for those who don't want to google.




LOL! You saved me Googles of time.

[JustOneGun]

Lifting elbows up drives thenar eminences into a grip without moving the lower portion of hands away from the grip, at least, not nearly as much as wrist twisting motion does.



This is true but only as one gets close to full extension. In self defense one might want or need to soot at eye level without full extension. So having a draw where it works with a decent grip from #2 all the way through #3 has advantages. I suspect that as the bones of the forearm roll inward at full extension the crossing of the sticks just happens. As newer people obtain a decent grip having them drive the support thumb more forward then allows the full benefits of that locked wrist and control of muzzle flip. Sort of a best of both worlds.

[blues]

I found the same thing. I have to think through the process vs. the way I naturally draw and shoot from an OWB holster at qualifications or from concealment. I may experiment with it further but I'm not convinced based upon my hand size, structure and some injuries over the years, that it's necessarily a good fit for me.

I did find it pretty accurate for both slow and rapid fire when I set the grip up, however.

Been working on acquiring the grip coming out of the draw...some last night and a bit today and it's starting to click.

(I'm one of those early 80's LE relics that has used something akin to Mas' "thumb-lock" grip (literally) for decades. Gonna see if I can't make the transition, even at this late date. Or at least give it a fair try before deciding if it's not for me.)

[octagon]

Been working on acquiring the grip coming out of the draw...some last night and a bit today and it's starting to click.

(I'm one of those early 80's LE relics that has used something akin to Mas' "thumb-lock" grip (literally) for decades. Gonna see if I can't make the transition, even at this late date. Or at least give it a fair try before deciding if it's not for me.)

Wow I thought I was the only one. I stuck with that type grip for years after being shown and looking at the thumbs forward grip and trying it some. I even used paint on a red gun to see if the contact area was greater with thumbs forward grip vs thumb lock style grip. I just couldn't switch. Near the end of my time on the job I was shooting less and then I took a year or so off from shooting. I then started again trying to switch to the thumbs forward grip with lots of dry fire and live reps. That has done it for me. I have changed over to use it consistently and under the shortest of time constraints. Good luck.

[blues]

Wow I thought I was the only one. I stuck with that type grip for years after being shown and looking at the thumbs forward grip and trying it some. I even used paint on a red gun to see if the contact area was greater with thumbs forward grip vs thumb lock style grip. I just couldn't switch. Near the end of my time on the job I was shooting less and then I took a year or so off from shooting. I then started again trying to switch to the thumbs forward grip with lots of dry fire and live reps. That has done it for me. I have changed over to use it consistently and under the shortest of time constraints. Good luck.

Thanks for sharing that...gives hope to this old dog.

I've done fine with the old method by and large over the years but the influence of this place makes me want to see if I can do just a bit better.

(I had to laugh last year at my LEOSA quals when one of the deputies told me that my scores for my G26 and G19 were good enough to make their SRT team. I knew, despite the score and from my few years on a team, I was anything but.)

Anyway, it's not for any other reason than for trying not to remain stagnant and hopefully make some positive gains. You never know if it will prove to make a difference down the road and there's nothing lost by trying.

[rodralig]

I got to learn this technique from Paul during his event with the SoCalGunClub in 2016. That said, I never really appreciated nor understood this technique, as I was fairly NEW to firearms then. But I still tried to incorporate it in my dry practice, even if it were SO awkward.

Then when I competed in my FIRST IDPA match and classifier just a few weeks back, people have commented that there is hardly any muzzle flip when I shoot (am using factory ammo Blazer Brass 115G 9mm). So, am really happy that there was indeed value to it...

That said, I have signed up for Vogel’s class in about two months. I’ll make it a point to check with him on the details of a recommended grip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Surf]

Interesting, as i am always searching for better recoil management. I tried Vogels method, and it works when I can take the time to properly acquire it, but it is slow and uncomfortable for me. Honestly I am not sure if I have a recoil management issue or a sight tracking issue, probably both. Less movement would definitely make it easier to track the sights. The never ending journey continues.I think Vogel mentions that he indeed sacrifices a small amount of time to lock in his grip but his advantage overall is big under multiple rounds and rapid fire. But don't quote me on this as I am a bit remote at the moment and don't feel like searching it.

For myself the inward roll happens on press out and I may actually adjust on the actual string of fire. I was able to shoot some video on the topic and I hope to update later with my thoughts on this and what I actually do. Again nothing works for everyone across the board and there is also the possibility of not getting a technique correct off a written description alone.


Been working on acquiring the grip coming out of the draw...some last night and a bit today and it's starting to click.

(I'm one of those early 80's LE relics that has used something akin to Mas' "thumb-lock" grip (literally) for decades. Gonna see if I can't make the transition, even at this late date. Or at least give it a fair try before deciding if it's not for me.)Having carried a revolver for my first few years OTJ and actually being more of a Chapmanesque type of shooter it was a hard time for me to adjust to a thumbs forward Iso shooter. But when things clicked the progression sped up quickly and rapidly passed beyond where I was at.

[blues]

Thanks, Surf. Time will tell.

[blues]

BTW, if Joe doesn't mind expanding on this excellent discussion somewhat, I wanted to share something from a conversation I've been conducting with Mas Ayoob on this topic via PM...I don't think I'll be disclosing any secret information by sharing with my forum brethren...


After several years with straight thumbs, I went back to the locked down grip. 2 main reasons. From Bill Rogers to Rob Leatham, they agree that the curled down thumb strengthens the hand and is superior for ONE-HANDED defensive shooting.

In a match or qual, we always know beforehand when it will be one-handed or two, but on the street we and our students never know if it will be two-handed until the support hand gets there.

I don't want my people to have to branch between one-handed and two that fast under life threatening stress; with the thumb always locked down, if the support hand does make it up to grasp, a simple thumbprint-over-thumbnail hold completes it without any grip shifting. Second, in gun retention, if the strike to the gun comes by surprise, a curled down thumb can resist the initial disarming attempt much more strongly than straight thumbs.

In the many years since I went back to thumb-lock, I've seen no difference in my qual or match scores from when i shot straight thumbs.


Agree or not, it's excellent food for thought and discussion, and very timely as I explore whether the transition is right for me personally.

Thoughts?

[Wondering Beard]

I don't think it needs to be an either/or. If I come off my two handed hold, my strong hand thumb naturally curls back down for a stronger single hand hold, and extends just as naturally when my support hand comes back up. It ends up, to sort of use Massad Ayoob's terminology, thumb print over thumb base.

Now, getting to the modern day grip took me some time as I started off as a Weaver/Chapman type of shooter. The first time I tried the modern isoceles, I couldn't get rid of my habit of push/pull and all my shots went left due to the absence of real isometric tension; that lasted for months, so much so that I just went back to my old weaver. The thumbs forward/canted support hand made the move to the modern day grip much easier to move to and frankly, I've got much better recoil control than I used to.

So, Blues, believe me when I tell you that I have a good understanding of your troubles :-). Still, a locked down thumb for one handed shooting and thumbs forward for two handed shooting aren't incompatible. I think that's the way DeFoor shoots too.

[blues]

I don't think it needs to be an either/or. If I come off my two handed hold, my strong hand thumb naturally curls back down for a stronger single hand hold, and extends just as naturally when my support hand comes back up. It ends up, to sort of use Massad Ayoob's terminology, thumb print over thumb base.

Now, getting to the modern day grip took me some time as I started off as a Weaver/Chapman type of shooter. The first time I tried the modern isoceles, I couldn't get rid of my habit of push/pull and all my shots went left due to the absence of real isometric tension; that lasted for months, so much so that I just went back to my old weaver. The thumbs forward/canted support hand made the move to the modern day grip much easier to move to and frankly, I've got much better recoil control than I used to.

So, Blues, believe me when I tell you that I have a good understanding of your troubles :-). Still, a locked down thumb for one handed shooting and thumbs forward for two handed shooting aren't incompatible. I think that's the way DeFoor shoots too.

I wouldn't call them troubles so much. I suppose I'm a casualty of the forum in a sense.

Consider that over the years, beginning in the early 80's, I've been to numerous academies, SWAT schools, on the job refreshers, quarterly qualifications and training etc etc.

Over those years I just sort of absorbed whatever was thrown my way and had no particular vested interest in any "school" per se. I took what they taught, used what felt natural and moved on along. This included isosceles, modified isosceles, Weaver, Chapman, what have you.

For the next few decades right up until quite recently, I really never gave a second thought to all this. When I'd shoot at the neighbor's or the local indoor range with the sheriff's office, I'd just do what my body instinctively told me to do whether it was standing, crouched or prone.

All of a sudden, for some ungodly reason, I find myself rethinking what I've pretty much been doing by rote all these years and I just know it's gonna screw me up come next month and my annual LEOSA requal.

Sometimes reading the forums is a dangerous thing.

All that said, I don't mind incorporating a new wrinkle if it will help me be better...as long as doing so will not be a drag on speed. I realize that this will depend on time, effort and practice.

I've never been one to believe that there is a single best way in most things but that there may be ways that are better or not for us individually. And we don't know what we don't know.

Time will tell if this will work for me. The problem I'm having now is thinking too much which is definitely going to slow my roll until I get sorted again.

[Wondering Beard]

[QUOTE=blues;613551]All of a sudden, for some ungodly reason, I find myself rethinking what I've pretty much been doing by rote all these years and I just know it's gonna screw me up come next month and my annual LEOSA requal.

Sometimes reading the forums is a dangerous thing.

Yup :-)


All that said, I don't mind incorporating a new wrinkle if it will help me be better...as long as doing so will not be a drag on speed. I realize that this will depend on time, effort and practice.

I've never been one to believe that there is a single best way in most things but that there may be ways that are better or not for us individually. And we don't know what we don't know.

Time will tell if this will work for me. The problem I'm having now is thinking too much which is definitely going to slow my roll until I get sorted again.

Agreed.

[blues]

I'm starting to feel somewhat optimistic. In practicing around my home I'm finding that I'm able to come up from AIWB and have my hands meet, (more often than not), in an acceptable thumbs forward grip. No doubt this is made somewhat simpler based on the fact that I carry a Glock. (I've been varying the attempts with a G26, 19 and 17 just to develop a bit of muscle memory due to the different sized grips.)

At the rate my adjustment seems to be developing, I think I may be okay by the time my day/night quals come up in a few weeks.

(I was at the neighbor's for a bit today and shot his and another friend's Para-Ordnances (9mms) with the grip. Shot pretty good on the plates and dueling tree with the hold but the single action trigger was a bit too light for my liking coming from my Glocks. I didn't bring my guns as it was just about to commence a storm and I figured I'd play with someone else's toys.)

[Wondering Beard]

I'm starting to feel somewhat optimistic. In practicing around my home I'm finding that I'm able to come up from AIWB and have my hands meet, (more often than not), in an acceptable thumbs forward grip. No doubt this is made somewhat simpler based on the fact that I carry a Glock. (I've been varying the attempts with a G26, 19 and 17 just to develop a bit of muscle memory due to the different sized grips.)

At the rate my adjustment seems to be developing, I think I may be okay by the time my day/night quals come up in a few weeks.

Yeah the "hands meet" part required some work too for me.


(I was at the neighbor's for a bit today and shot his and another friend's Para-Ordnances (9mms) with the grip. Shot pretty good on the plates and dueling tree with the hold but the single action trigger was a bit too light for my liking coming from my Glocks. I didn't bring my guns as it was just about to commence a storm and I figured I'd play with someone else's toys.)

It's always fun to play with someone else's toys, especially if they're guns :-)

[Surf]

"After several years with straight thumbs, I went back to the locked down grip. 2 main reasons. From Bill Rogers to Rob Leatham, they agree that the curled down thumb strengthens the hand and is superior for ONE-HANDED defensive shooting."

Thoughts?I will opt for the disagree point here.

If we look particularly at the quote about Bill Rogers and Rob Leatham where they agree about the one handed grip, what is their opinion on a two handed grip? In other words do they in turn advocate something similar in reference to a "defensive shooter" whereas they should adopt a one size fits all grip?

Just speaking for myself, it is my opinion that you are handicapping your two handed grip, to do a blanket "what if" scenario and going to a poorer two handed grip. In my case I do use a curled thumb one hand grip and a standard two hand grip. So do most of the people that I run across and train. I have yet to ever see this become such a training issue where it has even "pinged" my radar much less ever needing to think about changing a two handed grip to a poorer performing two handed grip to address IMO a real non-factor of a topic.

When I put one hand on a pistol I grip it naturally one way. When I put two hands on a pistol I again grip it with my standard two handed grip. If I remove one hand, or replace the support hand I don't even think about it. I also don't think it is a factor even for newer shooters learning one or two handed techniques. At least I haven't run across the issue, except in those initially learning the thumbs forward grip and just not understanding how set the grip up from the draw to presentation. After that, it seems pretty intuitive to switch back and forth. I mean heck we draw with one hand and then place the second hand on the weapon and vise versa when we re-holster. Never thought of it as an issue.

[blues]

Surf, if you get a chance, I sent you a PM the other day in regard to an earlier post. Thanks in advance.

[Surf]

Sorry, been off the grid a bit, will check it.

[Mas]

Surf, to the best of my knowledge, both Rob Leatham and Bill Rogers are still teaching thumbs forward for two-hand, thumb curled down for one hand.

[Robinson]

I don't think it needs to be an either/or. If I come off my two handed hold, my strong hand thumb naturally curls back down for a stronger single hand hold, and extends just as naturally when my support hand comes back up. It ends up, to sort of use Massad Ayoob's terminology, thumb print over thumb base.

Now, getting to the modern day grip took me some time as I started off as a Weaver/Chapman type of shooter. The first time I tried the modern isoceles, I couldn't get rid of my habit of push/pull and all my shots went left due to the absence of real isometric tension; that lasted for months, so much so that I just went back to my old weaver. The thumbs forward/canted support hand made the move to the modern day grip much easier to move to and frankly, I've got much better recoil control than I used to.

So, Blues, believe me when I tell you that I have a good understanding of your troubles :-). Still, a locked down thumb for one handed shooting and thumbs forward for two handed shooting aren't incompatible. I think that's the way DeFoor shoots too.

That all sounds pretty familiar to me. Some years ago I was carrying revolvers and my 1911s were just fun guns. When I transitioned away from revolvers to carrying a 1911 I also transitioned away from Weaver to Iso. Took me a while but was definitely worth it. One difference from the above is when I grip a 1911 strong hand only, I still keep my thumb on top of the safety so I guess that is still "thumbs forward".

[blues]

So, I've got a question for you thumbs forward mavens...

With your support hand thumb forward on the pistol, (Glock in my case), how much inward pressure are you exerting on the frame?

I feel like I've been making progress transitioning from my old grip to the "thumbs forward" and my accuracy has been good, especially with the 147gr and 124gr ammo vs. 115gr.

That said, I'm finding that the support hand thumb doesn't stay riveted to the frame after taking the shot though the rest of my grip doesn't need to be reset. Is this normal or is it something I need to concentrate on more? Wanted to ask you guys first before ingraining a bad habit by applying too much pressure and possibly pushing the muzzle to the right.

Thanks in advance.

Got some practice in drawing from AIWB and it's all starting to come together. (Ordered a Blackhawk demonstrator the other day to practice grip and draws with. Should be here Saturday.)

[Talionis]

So, I've got a question for you thumbs forward mavens...

With your support hand thumb forward on the pistol, (Glock in my case), how much inward pressure are you exerting on the frame?

I feel like I've been making progress transitioning from my old grip to the "thumbs forward" and my accuracy has been good, especially with the 147gr and 124gr ammo vs. 115gr.

That said, I'm finding that the support hand thumb doesn't stay riveted to the frame after taking the shot though the rest of my grip doesn't need to be reset. Is this normal or is it something I need to concentrate on more? Wanted to ask you guys first before ingraining a bad habit by applying too much pressure and possibly pushing the muzzle to the right.

Thanks in advance.

Got some practice in drawing from AIWB and it's all starting to come together. (Ordered a Blackhawk demonstrator the other day to practice grip and draws with. Should be here Saturday.)

Little to none. Other than the base of the thumb, it is just not consistent pressure enough for me, so I generally keep the thumb off or in light contact, no more.

[octagon]

As a shooter that is more recently switched from thumb over thumb to thumbs forward grip and changing some after Robert Vogel course. I am pressing inward against the frame very close to the frame slide line with similar pressure to a firm handshake. This is more with the base and first thumb of the support hand than the thumb tip or last joint of the thumb for me. When I do it correctly it makes a noticeable in recoil control and muzzle rise movement but I haven't solidified it in dry practice or live fire. YMMV

[blues]

Thanks, gents. Hopefully others will pitch in with their thoughts as well...

[ER_STL]

So, I've got a question for you thumbs forward mavens...

With your support hand thumb forward on the pistol, (Glock in my case), how much inward pressure are you exerting on the frame?

I feel like I've been making progress transitioning from my old grip to the "thumbs forward" and my accuracy has been good, especially with the 147gr and 124gr ammo vs. 115gr.

That said, I'm finding that the support hand thumb doesn't stay riveted to the frame after taking the shot though the rest of my grip doesn't need to be reset. Is this normal or is it something I need to concentrate on more? Wanted to ask you guys first before ingraining a bad habit by applying too much pressure and possibly pushing the muzzle to the right.

Thanks in advance.

Got some practice in drawing from AIWB and it's all starting to come together. (Ordered a Blackhawk demonstrator the other day to practice grip and draws with. Should be here Saturday.)

Unless you’re able to get the support hand somewhat behind the gun (as often happens with rounded-gripped guns like the 1911), it gets involved solely via friction between it and the strong hand fingers and the grip of the gun. The inward rotational force discussed here is simply a means of increasing that frictional force; using your chest to compress your hands inward is another way.

In my experience – and I find that I grip the gun pretty much as is being shown in the videos – I have to grip very hard and apply a considerable amount of inward torque in order to keep my support hand thumb glued to frame, provided that I’m using it to apply force to the gun (and I have decent grip strength (CoC #2)). I’m not sure how much value it provides to include the thumb verses flagging it out a bit and like you noticed, the rest of the hand seems to stay in place. It can however become an issue if your thumb moves off of the frame and changes the alignment that your hand has with the gun. That results in you having to either adjust your grip or your alignment as the sights won’t naturally return to their original POA.

I’m always playing with my grip and I still haven’t found what I’d call my “final” configuration so enjoy the journey… :)

[blues]

E, thanks for the reply. I'm not addressing anything but the support hand thumb tip or pad as it lies (presses) on the frame, forward and just below the slide. I don't mean the base of the thumb and I should have been clearer in my post above.

I have good hand strength, I work my grip regularly, but my question is an attempt to determine whether or not it is advisable to use the additional force necessary to "glue" that thumb (tip) to the frame so that it stays in place during the recoil phase... or merely apply and use whatever friction it provides even if it moves after the shot is taken and is re-positioned afterward.

The reason I ask is because in watching videos, and stopping to capture individual frames, I often see various instructors' thumbs (pad / tips) coming off the frame at least momentarily after the shot is taken. However, I haven't heard any of these gentlemen discuss whether or not it is important that the thumb pad or tip remain in contact with the frame throughout the recoil phase or not...nor how much force they impart via the support thumb at the tip.

My support hand and fingers are otherwise well locked on the grip and not requiring milking between shots.

I hope that helps explain what I'm trying to get at here better than did, perhaps, my earlier post. (I'm hoping to get some direction before I develop a habit one way or the other and then may have to "unlearn" it.)

[ER_STL]

E, thanks for the reply. I'm not addressing anything but the support hand thumb tip or pad as it lies (presses) on the frame, forward and just below the slide. I don't mean the base of the thumb and I should have been clearer in my post above.

I have good hand strength, I work my grip regularly, but my question is an attempt to determine whether or not it is advisable to use the additional force necessary to "glue" that thumb (tip) to the frame so that it stays in place during the recoil phase... or merely apply and use whatever friction it provides even if it moves after the shot is taken and is re-positioned afterward.

The reason I ask is because in watching videos, and stopping to capture individual frames, I often see various instructors' thumbs (pad / tips) coming off the frame at least momentarily after the shot is taken. However, I haven't heard any of these gentlemen discuss whether or not it is important that the thumb pad or tip remain in contact with the frame throughout the recoil phase or not...nor how much force they impart via the support thumb at the tip.

My support hand and fingers are otherwise well locked on the grip and not requiring milking between shots.

I hope that helps explain what I'm trying to get at here better than did, perhaps, my earlier post. (I'm hoping to get some direction before I develop a habit one way or the other and then may have to "unlearn" it.)

Yep....got it my man. As I'm not qualified to instruct I'll avoid polluting the thread too much more, other than to offer that you can find top-level shooters who do one of the other. Dave Sevigny, D.R. Middlebrooks (and I suspect Paul Sharp on the board) and Travis Haley are examples of those who do press the support-hand thumb into the grip, and there are plenty of shooters who insist on ensuring that it makes no contact whatsoever. I hate to say it but it sounds like this is another facet of the grip that may depend on the shooter and his/her preferences more than an absolute way of doing it.

[blues]

Yep....got it my man. As I'm not qualified to instruct I'll avoid polluting the thread too much more, other than to offer that you can find top-level shooters who do one of the other. Dave Sevigny, D.R. Middlebrooks (and I suspect Paul Sharp on the board) and Travis Haley are examples of those who do press the support-hand thumb into the grip, and there are plenty of shooters who insist on ensuring that it makes no contact whatsoever. I hate to say it but it sounds like this is another facet of the grip that may depend on the shooter and his/her preferences more than an absolute way of doing it.

Friends can never pollute a thread. At least not from my vantage point. That said, I suspect you are right in that there is no one right answer...as in most things.

I guess we'll just wait and see how my LEOSA qualification scores compare to last year running the same guns. (OEM sights replaced by Trijicon HDs (and now with "gadgets".)

[Gio]

Friends can never pollute a thread. At least not from my vantage point. That said, I suspect you are right in that there is no one right answer...as in most things.

I guess we'll just wait and see how my LEOSA qualification scores compare to last year running the same guns. (OEM sights replaced by Trijicon HDs (and now with "gadgets".)

For what it's worth, I press my support hand thumb into the frame pretty hard. I almost use the section of the frame forward of the slide lock as a poor man's gas pedal to help apply leverage into the frame.

[JackRock]

I just recently got a chance to head to the range after reading the link in the OP. And I do have to say, it was a SIGNIFICANT improvement over my usual shooting. It may not be the ultimate answer, but it seemed to have some resonance with me and my grip. I'll be giving it another try next time.

[blues]

For what it's worth, I press my support hand thumb into the frame pretty hard. I almost use the section of the frame forward of the slide lock as a poor man's gas pedal to help apply leverage into the frame.

Thanks, Gio, that is about where my thumb is positioned so next time out I'll concentrate on focusing some additional leverage there and see how it works out for me.

Do you find that in so doing your thumb remains on the frame throughout the recoil and while reacquiring POA without need of being reset?
(Not the rest of your grip, only referring to the pad or tip of your thumb.)

[Wondering Beard]

I do it pretty much like Gio and I don't find that my thumb needs to be reset at all, moreover that thumb placement gives an index feel so that I can easily tell if my grip is good.

[blues]

I do it pretty much like Gio and I don't find that my thumb needs to be reset at all, moreover that thumb placement gives an index feel so that I can easily tell if my grip is good.

Thanks, T. I'll have to work on applying sufficient pressure to retain the attachment to the frame. I'll give it a go next time out.

[psalms144.1]

Blues - a lot of these grip techniques are best worked on in dry fire first, until they become well ingrained. Remember to CONSCIOUSLY apply a LOT of grip strength in dry fire so you're not "going through the motions" and cheating yourself out of reps.

On the range, I'd suggest building this all into a progressive draw-fire routine where you consciously walk through the four step draw process, making sure your grip is the way you want it to become (not the way you've been doing it for decades) before you press the trigger.

A side note, you're in the minority of folks who want to learn a new skill to replace an old one. This is actually harder and generally more frustrating than learning a skill as a blank slate. Don't get discouraged, stick with it and remember that you're having fun!

[blues]

Blues - a lot of these grip techniques are best worked on in dry fire first, until they become well ingrained. Remember to CONSCIOUSLY apply a LOT of grip strength in dry fire so you're not "going through the motions" and cheating yourself out of reps.

On the range, I'd suggest building this all into a progressive draw-fire routine where you consciously walk through the four step draw process, making sure your grip is the way you want it to become (not the way you've been doing it for decades) before you press the trigger.

A side note, you're in the minority of folks who want to learn a new skill to replace an old one. This is actually harder and generally more frustrating than learning a skill as a blank slate. Don't get discouraged, stick with it and remember that you're having fun!

Thanks, Kevin. To be honest, I'm not really finding it frustrating as I've been able to take my time with it either in live fire or "dry" practice. It'll become more convenient when the Blackhawk demonstrator shows up on Saturday.

I think the fact that I've been going over the process mentally several times during the day either while I'm doing some other task that doesn't require great concentration or during idle moments, has helped me "realize" the process better when I practice live at my neighbor's range.

Been doing something very similar to what you mention. I'll envision raising shirt, obtaining grip, drawing weapon, joining support hand (setting the pins), rotating thumb forward and maximizing grip surface, driving out while acquiring the front sight etc etc. (Not an exhaustive list, just illustrating something akin to what I'll do several times a day and then enact at home or at the range.)

I have reset my grip a time or two prior to firing to "feel" the difference between what I am actively seeking versus something close but not quite what I'm looking for. I can see the difference on the target when I get in the groove.

Thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate it and the journey feels like time well spent.

[JHC]

As a shooter that is more recently switched from thumb over thumb to thumbs forward grip and changing some after Robert Vogel course. I am pressing inward against the frame very close to the frame slide line with similar pressure to a firm handshake. This is more with the base and first thumb of the support hand than the thumb tip or last joint of the thumb for me. When I do it correctly it makes a noticeable in recoil control and muzzle rise movement but I haven't solidified it in dry practice or live fire. YMMV

That is close to how Frank Proctor taught it to my younger son and I when we spent some time with him. He promoted orienting the pad of the thumb so its actually the thumbprint flat on the frame. My son uses that to this day. My thumb pad is not that fully rotated into the frame but I apply a good bit of pressure from the side of my thumb against the frame as you say.

When I get slack on it and see ragged results from a string of fire and then re-apply it with vigor I see a measurable improvement in control and tightening up of the hits.

[blues]

^^^^Good info, Joe. Thanks for sharing that. ^^^^

This thread has been very informative. I'm glad you started it as it's motivated me to go beyond what has been good enough for decades and see if I can achieve better results by incorporating a few changes.

[Wondering Beard]

Thanks, T. I'll have to work on applying sufficient pressure to retain the attachment to the frame. I'll give it a go next time out.

If it helps any, here's a pic of where my support hand thumb is. It's not quite exact because I removed my firing hand in order to take the photo but I think you may be able to see where and how the pressure is applied (none against the slide -I don't touch the slide-, some a little inward against the frame, some down like Gio's "gas pedal'). It's helped by the fact that the Glock frame sticks out a bit.

17508

[blues]

Thanks, T. My thumbs are relatively short compared to the length of my other fingers. (What that says about me I'm afraid to find out.)

In any case, the image is helpful. My support thumb tip rests around the "T" in Austria, (maybe slightly further forward, it's hard to tell exactly while holding a decent grip). The "attitude" of the thumb on the frame is similar.

[ER_STL]

Heh....I dug this up a few weeks ago after posting in the G17/19 hand-size thread. I had this filmed after getting back that problematic G26 that had been previously tossing brass back into my noggin:


https://youtu.be/YpmJNf2tseI

It's poor quality but that's using the Vogelesque grip with my support-hand (and thumb) mashed into the grip. Usually the thumb stays put but sometimes it'll slip, as you had been noticing with your shooting. When I used to run matches and had to focus on solving shooting problems I didn't notice it having any effect on how the gun ran. That means that either it was working well -or- I just sucked bad enough for it not to matter. ;)

[blues]

...It's poor quality but that's using the Vogelesque grip with my support-hand (and thumb) mashed into the grip. Usually the thumb stays put but sometimes it'll slip, as you had been noticing with your shooting. When I used to run matches and had to focus on solving shooting problems I didn't notice it having any effect on how the gun ran. That means that either it was working well -or- I just sucked bad enough for it not to matter. ;)

How do you expect me to get anything out of that when you shoot with the wrong hand?!? :p

Looks like your support thumb stayed on the G26 pretty solidly and recoil was minimal.
(I'm trying to remember now if it was the 19 or the 26 that I noticed the issue with more often. No matter, as I'll have to train the 17, 19 and 26 for the same result.)

Thanks for sharing the clip. That's very useful. :cool:

[spinmove_]

So, I've got a question for you thumbs forward mavens...

With your support hand thumb forward on the pistol, (Glock in my case), how much inward pressure are you exerting on the frame?

I feel like I've been making progress transitioning from my old grip to the "thumbs forward" and my accuracy has been good, especially with the 147gr and 124gr ammo vs. 115gr.

That said, I'm finding that the support hand thumb doesn't stay riveted to the frame after taking the shot though the rest of my grip doesn't need to be reset. Is this normal or is it something I need to concentrate on more? Wanted to ask you guys first before ingraining a bad habit by applying too much pressure and possibly pushing the muzzle to the right.

Thanks in advance.

Got some practice in drawing from AIWB and it's all starting to come together. (Ordered a Blackhawk demonstrator the other day to practice grip and draws with. Should be here Saturday.)

IF my thumb makes contact with the frame it's providing 0 pressure to the frame. All of the inward force exerted comes from the palm with the majority of that coming from just below the base knuckle for the thumb.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[blues]

So, just a minor update...

Been practicing around the house, terrorizing the wife and dog with the Blackhawk demonstrator and got out to shoot for an hour or so on Tuesday.

Definitely making progress on B-8 and IPSC targets with the new grip...and the draw is coming along as well from AIWB.

Still haven't solved how to keep the pad of the support thumb welded to the forward section of the frame of my G26...which is what I'm primarily training with since it's my main LEOSA gun for travel up to NY and environs. Don't get me wrong, the rounds are hitting pretty much where I want them to go...but my support thumb is definitely losing contact with the frame after the shot but I'm able to replace it quickly enough to fire off my rounds with a nice cadence (and minimize recoil).

So, I'm not sure it really matters but I'll work on it some more. Maybe bring some Krazy Glue with me to my next outing and see how that works out for me. ;)

I know the grip is starting to take because I had to think about how I was gripping the Glocks previously when I was showing my buddy the changes I had been incorporating.

[octagon]

So, just a minor update...

Been practicing around the house, terrorizing the wife and dog with the Blackhawk demonstrator and got out to shoot for an hour or so on Tuesday.

Definitely making progress on B-8 and IPSC targets with the new grip...and the draw is coming along as well from AIWB.

Still haven't solved how to keep the pad of the support thumb welded to the forward section of the frame of my G26...which is what I'm primarily training with since it's my main LEOSA gun for travel up to NY and environs. Don't get me wrong, the rounds are hitting pretty much where I want them to go...but my support thumb is definitely losing contact with the frame after the shot but I'm able to replace it quickly enough to fire off my rounds with a nice cadence (and minimize recoil).

So, I'm not sure it really matters but I'll work on it some more. Maybe bring some Krazy Glue with me to my next outing and see how that works out for me. ;)

I know the grip is starting to take because I had to think about how I was gripping the Glocks previously when I was showing my buddy the changes I had been incorporating.

Could a piece of grip tape help on the side of the frame where your support hand thumb rests? I did similar on my Glock 43 but in different areas.

[blues]

Could a piece of grip tape help on the side of the frame where your support hand thumb rests? I did similar on my Glock 43 but in different areas.

That's an idea. Might give it a try at some point. Thanks.

[blues]

Well, I guess the grip is taking. Took my LEOSA quals today with the sheriff's office. (Day / Simulated Night)

Had to use my AIWB holster outside the pants (under the belt) since I realized that none of my old OWB holsters would work with the Trijicon HD front sight.

Used the thumbs forward grip from the draw with both a G26 and a G19.

Scores were 95% Day / 100% Night for the G26.

100% Day / 98.7% Night for the G19.

Oddly enough, when I got home to clean my guns I noticed that the G26 front sight was loose and moving around. It was fine when I cleaned the gun last week so it must've just happened today.

I'm pleased that the grip is becoming second nature and my sincere thanks to all who have provided input to help with the transition along the way.

[Wondering Beard]

Congrats E. !

[blues]

Congrats E. !

Merci

[octagon]

Glad it worked out. Now to get my own grip issues sorted.

[Wondering Beard]

Merci

Prego

[Surf]

Great job E!

Great to see seasoned guys learning more modern technique. Learning something new after years of using something else is not easy and often the hardest part is convincing them that just because something worked for so long doesn't mean that something else better exists.

[blues]

Great job E!

Great to see seasoned guys learning more modern technique. Learning something new after years of using something else is not easy and often the hardest part is convincing them that just because something worked for so long doesn't mean that something else better exists.

I am particularly indebted to you, Surf, for the info posted here and in your PM which resonated strongly with me. I worked on both grip and stance based upon info you shared.

It led me to some further study...both reading and video...and then to the Blackhawk demonstrator, (first recommended to me by Tom of DSG), which helped reinforce the grip much like eating and sleeping with one's rifle.

I've certainly got plenty of room for improvement and refinement but I feel good about the progress made thus far.

Thanks again to you and everyone that helped make that transition an enjoyable learning process as Kevin (Psalms) put it.