PDA

View Full Version : Shivworks push dagger



JCS
06-03-2017, 01:28 PM
Looks like these will be available within the month on Amazon. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170603/4842223c3271c01c66dce096a0a1425c.png

Wondering Beard
06-03-2017, 05:03 PM
Looking forward to those.

blues
06-03-2017, 05:21 PM
I've never owned a push dagger...I'll be interested in hearing your impressions, T.

Paul Sharp
06-03-2017, 05:30 PM
I've never owned a push dagger...I'll be interested in hearing your impressions, T.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170603/a7ccf092d321852af2b4c75cf95e27f8.jpg

I'm digging it.

JCS
06-03-2017, 05:31 PM
I'm wondering what the attachment on the Kydex sheath is?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

blues
06-03-2017, 05:34 PM
I'm digging it.

Where on your person do you carry, Paul? Is it legal for the citizens in your area to carry concealed?

Paul Sharp
06-03-2017, 05:36 PM
Where on your person do you carry, Paul? Is it legal for the citizens in your area to carry concealed?

On my left side forward of my hip. Embarrassed to say I'm not sure about the legalities.

blues
06-03-2017, 05:38 PM
On my left side forward of my hip. Embarrassed to say I'm not sure about the legalities.

Pretty much exactly where I carry a spare mag when I wear one OWB (as I am at the moment).

Thanks, brother.

Paul Sharp
06-03-2017, 05:44 PM
Pretty much exactly where I carry a spare mag when I wear one OWB (as I am at the moment).

Thanks, brother.

Right on. Dark Star Gear makes a mag pouch that will let you carry the mag IWB while wearing the PD or other fixed blade OWB. Some folks don't like it because the mag and the blade are occupying the same piece of real estate. However, I like it.

blues
06-03-2017, 05:47 PM
I guess the usage would be similar to how one might deploy the Perrin "griffe".


1712417125

voodoo_man
06-03-2017, 06:02 PM
Lots of guys use cold steel urban edge's which are like $25 everywhere. Usually behind a mag pouch.

Not a fan personally. Especially for concealed carry, a proper blade is perfectly suitable.

Hambo
06-03-2017, 06:20 PM
Right on. Dark Star Gear makes a mag pouch that will let you carry the mag IWB while wearing the PD or other fixed blade OWB. Some folks don't like it because the mag and the blade are occupying the same piece of real estate. However, I like it.

Any links or pics? It's not that I'm out of real estate, just out of useful real estate. ;)

Paul Sharp
06-03-2017, 06:52 PM
Any links or pics? It's not that I'm out of real estate, just out of useful real estate. ;)

I don't have any at the moment. The mag pouch is or was a prototype so I don't know if I can post pics. Maybe @Dark Star Gear can post a link?

Willard
06-03-2017, 06:56 PM
Are these Chinese or US made? Thanks.

Hambo
06-03-2017, 07:03 PM
OK, Paul. Thanks.

Wondering Beard
06-03-2017, 07:39 PM
I guess the usage would be similar to how one might deploy the Perrin "griffe".


1712417125

Similar, but not exactly.

While I haven't gotten hold of one yet and my experience with punch daggers is limited, this would seem to work more with a straight punch, twist and rip down. The Griffe is probably more versatile though.

There's a video somewhere out there (Watson's instagram maybe?) where he very easily pushes through a tire with this punch dagger and I would think that the angle of the blade to the hand of the griffe might not make that action as easy to do.

As always, I could be wrong.

El Cid
06-03-2017, 07:53 PM
Definitely interested in this! Thanks!

SouthNarc
06-03-2017, 08:18 PM
Are these Chinese or US made? Thanks.


Chinese.

Up1911Fan
06-03-2017, 09:15 PM
Chinese.

Where's the Disciple?

SeriousStudent
06-03-2017, 10:26 PM
Joe and I talked about this a couple of weeks ago, during a break at a shooting class.

I'm planning on picking one up with the drone, just to test and practice with. I'm also going to bring it to classes, and get ideas and feedback from my instructors.

Joe is a solid dude, and I hope he's doing good business at Blade in Atlanta this weekend.

Totem Polar
06-03-2017, 11:13 PM
I remember rumour of these, i'm way in; thanks for the heads up.

Flamingo
06-04-2017, 12:46 AM
Right on. Dark Star Gear makes a mag pouch that will let you carry the mag IWB while wearing the PD or other fixed blade OWB. Some folks don't like it because the mag and the blade are occupying the same piece of real estate. However, I like it.

Can you post a picture of this set up please?

Disregard... I saw your answer about it later.

RevolverRob
06-04-2017, 09:00 AM
Me? I'm going to get two and a trainer.

"A push-dagger in each hand and then you're fuckin' Wolverine. And no one wants any of that." - S'Narc.

blues
06-04-2017, 09:07 AM
I had a brief PM chat with Craig last night. I'm in.

ssb
06-04-2017, 10:30 AM
SouthNarc, can we expect a similar price point to the production Clinch Pick? Do you have a number for the size of this batch/how many available upon release? Finally, there was an Instagram video (I think) that showed a sheath for this with a velcro'd on clip for ride height adjustment -- is that what's going to be shipping with the knives?

orionz06
06-04-2017, 10:39 AM
I don't have any at the moment. The mag pouch is or was a prototype so I don't know if I can post pics. Maybe @Dark Star Gear can post a link?


Yup


Where's the Disciple?

Ban Tang has his own, they're rather nice at any price but his are relatively low cost.

Hizzie
06-04-2017, 12:27 PM
p/1tNww2RW67

RevolverRob
06-04-2017, 06:32 PM
Moving on. I dig this push-dagger design, saw it at EWO back in Feb. Both the pre-production version and the Joe Watson custom version. Both feel great in the hand and don't suffer from the torquing in the hand that a lot of push-type knives do. The scales are a bit large and it will take up some real-estate on the belt line, but if you can conceal a handgun AIWB then this won't be a problem.

FYI, to the person who asked, my understanding is that YES the factory sheath clip will be velcro-attached and height adjustable. That's what Craig said their plan was back in Feb. I hope that is still true.

ssb
06-04-2017, 06:40 PM
FYI, to the person who asked, my understanding is that YES the factory sheath clip will be velcro-attached and height adjustable. That's what Craig said their plan was back in Feb. I hope that is still true.

That'd be me. You mentioned your exposure to the PD was at EWO. I assume the sheath design held up well through that course?

RevolverRob
06-04-2017, 07:25 PM
That'd be me. You mentioned your exposure to the PD was at EWO. I assume the sheath design held up well through that course?

Unfortunately, no one pressure tested it. So I can't say for sure. Craig had it with him as part of the various demonstrators. So I got a few minutes to play with it and feel the weight/shape test the grip a bit, but nothing like a full-on test. I'm going to try to get to ECQC later this year, if so I should have a trainer by then to pressure test a little bit during EVOs.

orionz06
06-04-2017, 08:25 PM
Unfortunately, no one pressure tested it. So I can't say for sure. Craig had it with him as part of the various demonstrators. So I got a few minutes to play with it and feel the weight/shape test the grip a bit, but nothing like a full-on test. I'm going to try to get to ECQC later this year, if so I should have a trainer by then to pressure test a little bit during EVOs.

I think it is safe to say the body of work behind the clip itself is solid and that won't be a concern. The velcro would be the only point of contention but considering the demands placed on it I'd not be worried.

RevolverRob
06-04-2017, 09:02 PM
I think it is safe to say the body of work behind the clip itself is solid and that won't be a concern. The velcro would be the only point of contention but considering the demands placed on it I'd not be worried.

Yes, I meant to mention that. I tried "ripping" the clip loose from the velcro by pulling down on the clip like you might if you were drawing IWB. NO budging. It should be very solid. Time will tell how well access will be when entangled (shouldn't be any worse than a handgun), but I don't know if it will be as fast and smooth as the CP. It's so hard to block/stop the draw from the horizontal belt-line of a CP.

For folks who have been running the PD any comments on access?

orionz06
06-04-2017, 09:18 PM
I don't know if it will be as fast and smooth as the CP. It's so hard to block/stop the draw from the horizontal belt-line of a CP.

For folks who have been running the PD any comments on access?

Faster/stronger. It seems that once one has a grip on the PD getting it out leaves that arm far more free than a CP. Blocking a CP draw is hard but I think a PD is even harder. Access might be slightly harder, by the smallest gap.

Hizzie
06-04-2017, 09:27 PM
3M Dual Lock ain't no joke. That stuff really holds.

Rich@CCC
06-05-2017, 10:06 AM
Just a reminder to the non LEO members. Make sure this is legal to carry in your state/area.

Ohio's knife laws are ridiculous in their lack of defining anything and as knives are not covered under state concealed carry licenses and there is no state preemption regarding knives there is literally no way to determine if any knife from a Victorinox Solitaire to a Spyderco Civilian would be considered "Any deadly weapon other than a handgun" and thereby not legal to conceal.

psalms144.1
06-05-2017, 02:08 PM
IANAL, but just about everywhere I have lived have had special provisions about "push" and "punch" daggers making them a legal no-no for daily carry. I used to roll with several of the CS versions, but gave them up after seeing the legal ramifications in several different jurisdictions.

Not sure why that is, but the "push dagger" appears to be the "evil black rifle" of the knife world - to the unwashed. Of course, a SWITCHBLADE Push Dagger would be a weapon of mass destruction in those same circles...

blues
06-05-2017, 02:43 PM
IANAL, but just about everywhere I have lived have had special provisions about "push" and "punch" daggers making them a legal no-no for daily carry. I used to roll with several of the CS versions, but gave them up after seeing the legal ramifications in several different jurisdictions.

Not sure why that is, but the "push dagger" appears to be the "evil black rifle" of the knife world - to the unwashed. Of course, a SWITCHBLADE Push Dagger would be a weapon of mass destruction in those same circles...

A switchblade balisong push dagger would hit all the right buttons. :cool:

psalms144.1
06-05-2017, 02:57 PM
A switchblade balisong push dagger would hit all the right buttons. :cool:That would actually cause anyone within the grid square to spontaneously combust.

Chance
06-05-2017, 03:14 PM
Embarrassed to say I'm not sure about the legalities.

The legalities are also what I'm worried about. Obviously not an issue for LEOs, but civvies are a different story. What muddies the waters is that John McPhee's SOB Punch Dagger won the NRA's Golden Bullseye (http://sobtactical.com/sob-puncher-wins-2017-nra-golden-bullseye-award-accessory-year/) award this year, and it would be a little odd for the NRA to endorse something that wasn't legal for civilians to carry.

ssb
06-05-2017, 03:29 PM
When I was traveling across the country, I made a point to look at the knife laws in states I'd be traveling through. Most of the states I looked at specifically prohibited punch/push daggers or were worded vaguely enough (seriously, WTF counts as a "dirk knife" in 2017?) to where I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying some of my knives as a non-LEO. Thankfully, my state is no longer one of those.

FWIW, my out-of-state carry knife is a waved Endura for that reason.

Caballoflaco
06-05-2017, 04:24 PM
Here in Alabam and much of the southeast it's Bowie knives that folks got all skeert of back in the 1800's and wrote laws against.

Here's the applicable law for the state of Alabama, but local municipalities can have their own ordinances. Of note, I don't remember the case, but a large kitchen knife was found to be of like kind or description to a Bowie knife.

Section 13A-11-50

Carrying concealed weapons.

Except as otherwise provided in this Code, a person who carries concealed about his person a bowie knife or knife or instrument of like kind or description or a pistol or firearm of any other kind or an air gun shall, on conviction, be fined not less than $50.00 nor more than $500.00, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not more than six months.

(Code 1852, §15; Code 1867, §3555; Code 1876, §4109; Code 1886, §3775; Code 1896, §4420; Code 1907, §6421; Code 1923, §3485; Code 1940, T. 14, §161; Code 1975, §13-6-120.)

blues
06-05-2017, 04:55 PM
The TV show was one of the reasons I became fascinated by blades as a young lad...

17165

Chance
06-05-2017, 05:28 PM
Knife Rights (https://kniferights.org) seems to be making some progress pushing back against those laws, because I also don't know what a "dirk" is. Craig talked about it on the VTAC podcast, so maybe he can explain it better (paging SouthNarc).

blues
06-05-2017, 05:29 PM
A dirk is generally a wee dagger. (Although, apparently, it was also considered a long dagger. Go figure.)

So as long as the law refers to dirks as being outlawed...apparently they can make it whatever suits them at the time.

Caballoflaco
06-05-2017, 05:43 PM
Since my edit time expired here's a site that lists local city ordinances for a lot of the cities in Alabama, I didn't bother looking at other states, but a lot are listed. I only found one city in AL (I didn't check all the cities they had listed) that had additional knife laws for adults and that was Anniston with a ban on switch blades. I'm not a lawyer so don't trust me, but this does seem to be a useful site.

https://www.municode.com/library/

SeriousStudent
06-05-2017, 07:26 PM
Knife Rights (https://kniferights.org) seems to be making some progress pushing back against those laws, because I also don't know what a "dirk" is. Craig talked about it on the VTAC podcast, so maybe he can explain it better (paging SouthNarc).

Correct. Texas House bill 1935 made it through the Senate, and is on Greg Abbott's desk.

It does get rid of the "dirk, dagger or poinard" and Bowie knife language, and modifies the restricted locations.

So I still could not carry a push dagger to church. Sigh. :(

Chance
06-05-2017, 08:01 PM
So I still could not carry a push dagger to church. Sigh. :(

So just carry more guns.

SeriousStudent
06-05-2017, 08:24 PM
So just carry more guns.

Glock 17 AIWB right hand side

S&W 342 in left front pocket

And before I cut back for Lent, a S&W 43c in an ankle holster.

If I carry any more metal, I'll ring like a church bell.

blues
06-05-2017, 08:31 PM
Glock 17 AIWB right hand side

S&W 342 in left front pocket

And before I cut back for Lent, a S&W 43c in an ankle holster.

If I carry any more metal, I'll ring like a church bell.

Just dedicate the push dagger for intruders and unwelcome visitors that show up on your doorstep.

Chance
06-05-2017, 09:12 PM
And before I cut back for Lent, a S&W 43c in an ankle holster.


You gave up a gun for Lent?

Heretic.

Chance
06-06-2017, 02:48 PM
I've written an e-mail to Knife Rights (https://kniferights.org/contact/), asking them specifically about the legality of the SOB Punch Dagger in Texas (I focused on the SOB Punch Dagger because of its publicity, and Texas because that's where I live). When/if they respond, I will share it with everyone.

ETA: Well, that was fast. Here's the entirety of the response I received -


See:

https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/action-alert-knife-rights-texas-illegal-knife-repeal-bill-hearing/

Also:

https://kniferights.org/resources/legal-blade/

Be advised that some states are considering bills that outlaw non-metallic “undetectable” knives.

Regards,

Doug Ritter
Chairman and Executive Director
Knife Rights, Inc.
Knife Rights Foundation, Inc.
www.KnifeRights.org
twitter.com/KnifeRights
facebook.com/KnifeRights
Email: dritter@KnifeRights.org

BillSWPA
06-06-2017, 09:56 PM
I recall reading a case in Pennsylvania wherein a knife that could be opened so that the blade was held either parallel or perpendicular to the handle was found to fall under the catchall class at the end of the statute prohibiting the carry of various weapons (18 Pa.C.S.A. sec. 908). The language in that statute dealing specifically with knives has been explained by the courts as only prohibiting switchblade knives, although it is sometimes misread by police to apply to double edged knives. I have not yet found any cases dealing specifically with a double edge knife. The bottom line, however, is that it is not just the wording applying to knives that must be considered, but also the catchall clause. Based on the cases I have found, I would advise against carrying a push dagger in Pennsylvania.

The result is most likely similar in most states, with a small number of exceptions.

BillSWPA
06-07-2017, 12:41 AM
I've written an e-mail to Knife Rights (https://kniferights.org/contact/), asking them specifically about the legality of the SOB Punch Dagger in Texas (I focused on the SOB Punch Dagger because of its publicity, and Texas because that's where I live). When/if they respond, I will share it with everyone.

ETA: Well, that was fast. Here's the entirety of the response I received -

I spent the $2 to get the app in the 2nd link. It is useful, but READ THE STATUTES THEMSELVES AND DO NOT RELY SOLELY ON THE CHARTS. The charts DO NOT tell the whole story, and often fail to include blade length limits that appear in the statutes.

The book, Knife Laws of the 50 States is a very good resource. http://www.gunlaws.com/KnifeLawsof50States.htm

Totem Polar
06-07-2017, 01:04 AM
That app seems pretty sketchy, at least based on perusing a couple of locations that I have previously researched pretty hard. There are more thorough online sources.

Hizzie
07-09-2017, 03:46 AM
Any updates? Checking Amazon and not finding.

UNK
07-09-2017, 07:32 AM
Yup



Ban Tang has his own, they're rather nice at any price but his are relatively low cost.

he does have nice stuff but every time I look at his blades I wonder how the heck you sharpen them. The nightmare grinds look even worse to sharpen than his standard fare.

voodoo_man
07-09-2017, 07:59 AM
I recall reading a case in Pennsylvania wherein a knife that could be opened so that the blade was held either parallel or perpendicular to the handle was found to fall under the catchall class at the end of the statute prohibiting the carry of various weapons (18 Pa.C.S.A. sec. 908). The language in that statute dealing specifically with knives has been explained by the courts as only prohibiting switchblade knives, although it is sometimes misread by police to apply to double edged knives. I have not yet found any cases dealing specifically with a double edge knife. The bottom line, however, is that it is not just the wording applying to knives that must be considered, but also the catchall clause. Based on the cases I have found, I would advise against carrying a push dagger in Pennsylvania.

The result is most likely similar in most states, with a small number of exceptions.

In PA, per 908 - http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=18&div=0&chpt=9&sctn=8&subsctn=0&mobile_choice=suppress - subsection C, it clearly states "dagger" which would be any knife with two sharpened sides, and by state definition would be illegal to carry, but not to buy or own.

What case are you referring to?

Jason M
07-09-2017, 08:45 AM
In PA, per 908 - http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=18&div=0&chpt=9&sctn=8&subsctn=0&mobile_choice=suppress - subsection C, it clearly states "dagger" which would be any knife with two sharpened sides, and by state definition would be illegal to carry, but not to buy or own.

What case are you referring to?

Since 908 is so poorly worded it is up for local interpretation. We take the "compound sentence" approach and consider this phrase applicable to all of the aforementioned cutting tools "the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism,". We consider this to be a prohibition on switchblades only. The other knives regardless of grind are good to go. The take away is that, due to the poor wording, a knife carrier's LE experience may vary by location within the Commonwealth.

BillSWPA
07-09-2017, 08:46 AM
In PA, per 908 - http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=18&div=0&chpt=9&sctn=8&subsctn=0&mobile_choice=suppress - subsection C, it clearly states "dagger" which would be any knife with two sharpened sides, and by state definition would be illegal to carry, but not to buy or own.

What case are you referring to?

That section is modified by the blade opening by a push button or switch. This is consistent with interpreting criminal statutes in the defendant's favor, as well as every court case I have found interpreting this section (unfortunately as dicta and not applying specifically to the facts of that case).

I have read a lot of cases over the past 20 or so years. I will need to look later to see the specific case.

I would still discourage carrying a double edge blade, not because it is illegal, but because you may end up arrested and paying a lawyer to prove it is legal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

voodoo_man
07-09-2017, 09:22 AM
Since 908 is so poorly worded it is up for local interpretation. We take the "compound sentence" approach and consider this phrase applicable to all of the aforementioned cutting tools "the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism,". We consider this to be a prohibition on switchblades only. The other knives regardless of grind are good to go. The take away is that, due to the poor wording, a knife carrier's LE experience may vary by location within the Commonwealth.

Yeah I agree of course, its always up for officer discretion and local interpretation.

That said, walking around with a question mark over your head at any given time is not a good way to go about carrying a blade concealed.

Especially when there are other, just as good single sided options available.

runcible
08-06-2017, 06:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_RALHn6Bb4

Viewing material for the wait until release. :)

karmapolice
10-30-2017, 02:53 PM
Any update on these yet, I really want one for my concealed carry use!

SouthNarc
10-30-2017, 05:00 PM
Any update on these yet, I really want one for my concealed carry use!

We just took possession of the latest run so we'll have them to Amazon within 3 weeks at the latest.

blues
10-30-2017, 05:34 PM
I posted this image earlier in the EDC thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16474-EDC-items-photo-thread&p=668326#post668326) but it seems like it would be germane here as well (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16474-EDC-items-photo-thread&p=668387&viewfull=1#post668387).

21254

ssb
10-30-2017, 06:14 PM
We just took possession of the latest run so we'll have them to Amazon within 3 weeks at the latest.

Can we get a notification when they're up? Also, trainers available?

blues: how's that sheath working out for you?

blues
10-30-2017, 06:41 PM
Can we get a notification when they're up? Also, trainers available?

blues: how's that sheath working out for you?
ssb...The sheath is serviceable and is probably fine for my needs. It holds the knife so that it wouldn't come out on its own, or if shaken...but it doesn't have the kind of retention that a custom sheath such as the one Tom makes for the Izula possesses.

I'd be more comfortable with a PTD loop as opposed to the Dual Lock especially if I want to wear the rig horizontally, but that's primarily a function of how I wear the sheath on the outside of the belt. In vertical fashion I can cover with the tail of the belt. (I didn't want to set the knife up for wear inside of the waistband as I feel that drawing in that position has certain potential downsides.)

Stand by and I'll try to grab a quick pic in the mirror...

blues
10-30-2017, 06:57 PM
Shown alongside G19 in a Mastermind Tactical AIWB holster and AIWB magazine carrier...


21262

21263

21264

Nice and comfortable. Sitting on the couch watching the ball game is no problem whatsoever and all items are easily drawn and replaced on demand.

The sheath is attached via the 3M Dual Lock to a spring clip...like the one Tom uses on his popular AIWB holsters.

ssb
10-30-2017, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the pics. Hopefully I'll be able to snag one from this batch.

Totem Polar
10-30-2017, 11:47 PM
Wait... WTF... these are a production thing now?

I thought I was on top of this stuff. I am in, assuming I can get in.

Cecil Burch
10-31-2017, 11:48 AM
Can we get a notification when they're up? Also, trainers available?

blues: how's that sheath working out for you?

Not blues, but I have been using mine since August and I can say the sheath is decent. Nothing great or earth-shattering, but solid for my needs. I am pretty sure that as soon as they go public, Tom at DSG will get one, and have a better sheath available not longer after that. I have not talked to him about it, but it is a good guess. I will snag one up right away, but until then, the standard sheath will do the job.

Dark Star Gear
10-31-2017, 12:00 PM
Not blues, but I have been using mine since August and I can say the sheath is decent. Nothing great or earth-shattering, but solid for my needs. I am pretty sure that as soon as they go public, Tom at DSG will get one, and have a better sheath available not longer after that. I have not talked to him about it, but it is a good guess. I will snag one up right away, but until then, the standard sheath will do the job.

That's the plan. In all likelihood all we'd be able to offer over the stock sheath is a mechanical fastening method that is likely overkill. My personal preference is for soft loops so we're gonna look at that as well.

blues
10-31-2017, 12:36 PM
That's the plan. In all likelihood all we'd be able to offer over the stock sheath is a mechanical fastening method that is likely overkill. My personal preference is for soft loops so we're gonna look at that as well.

Judging by the retention on your Izula sheath, Tom, I think you'd not only up the "mechanical fastening method" but provide more positive retention of the blade itself. (Not to say that the stock sheath is unworthy, not at all...just a different standard of function and capability from what I've come to know based upon my experience with your designs.)

blues
10-31-2017, 02:07 PM
Not blues, but I have been using mine since August and I can say the sheath is decent. Nothing great or earth-shattering, but solid for my needs. I am pretty sure that as soon as they go public, Tom at DSG will get one, and have a better sheath available not longer after that. I have not talked to him about it, but it is a good guess. I will snag one up right away, but until then, the standard sheath will do the job.
Cecil Burch...

Cecil, out of curiosity, how and where do you carry the push dagger? IWB or OWB? Horizontal, canted or vertical?

Just curious since there are various options and its not a mode of carry I've got a great deal of experience with (having been primarily reliant on neck knives like the Perrin "griffe" or pocket carry by and large over the years).

Thanks in advance my friend.

Cecil Burch
10-31-2017, 04:23 PM
Cecil Burch...

Cecil, out of curiosity, how and where do you carry the push dagger? IWB or OWB? Horizontal, canted or vertical?

Just curious since there are various options and its not a mode of carry I've got a great deal of experience with (having been primarily reliant on neck knives like the Perrin "griffe" or pocket carry by and large over the years).

Thanks in advance my friend.


I generally run it weak side IWB with a vertical orientation.

You lose a little draw functionality that way, but you get maximum concealment. Years ago I tried carrying a PD horizontally, and the draw was really nice, but I was never truly satisfied with the concealing it that way. And back around 2008 I had a guy make me kydex rig that was IWB but with more ride height and it was able to be canted with the handle to the rear. Again, draw was good, concealment was okay, but I had some concerns with the retention. So years of trying a bunch of stuff has led me to the current configuration.

blues
10-31-2017, 04:34 PM
I generally run it weak side IWB with a vertical orientation.

You lose a little draw functionality that way, but you get maximum concealment. Years ago I tried carrying a PD horizontally, and the draw was really nice, but I was never truly satisfied with the concealing it that way. And back around 2008 I had a guy make me kydex rig that was IWB but with more ride height and it was able to be canted with the handle to the rear. Again, draw was good, concealment was okay, but I had some concerns with the retention. So years of trying a bunch of stuff has led me to the current configuration.

Thanks, Cecil. Just what I was looking for. Appreciate it.

critter
10-31-2017, 04:52 PM
Just dedicate the push dagger for intruders and unwelcome visitors that show up on your doorstep.

Yeah, but there's nothing quite like cranking the chainsaw to send the JW's scurrying off the porch.

I'm nothing remotely resembling a proficient knife fighter, but damn, I want one of these.

El Cid
11-01-2017, 08:25 PM
I had no idea these were so close to release! I need to set aside some money to be ready.

SeriousStudent
11-29-2017, 11:44 AM
Any updates for the general public? I'm itching to buy a pair of Christmas presents for those on the nice list. :)

eaglefrq
11-29-2017, 12:54 PM
Looking forward to getting one of these when they are available.

SouthNarc
11-29-2017, 03:39 PM
They are being shipped to the fulfillment centers this week.

SeriousStudent
11-29-2017, 04:21 PM
Woohoo! Thanks very much! :)

eaglefrq
11-30-2017, 05:30 AM
That is awesome news!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

CWM11B
12-03-2017, 04:35 PM
And what does one find this little gem? My searches find nothing but cool pics.

SeriousStudent
12-03-2017, 06:22 PM
Bookmarked. Thanks very much Tom.

Ballistic_RT
12-14-2017, 10:39 PM
Do we have an estimated price? May just have to replace my CP with this as its not really working for me. Had a BCM Colonel that was okay but the design ended up being hard for me to conceal. Maybe this will be the middle ground.

eaglefrq
01-05-2018, 04:32 PM
Any new updates?

El Cid
01-05-2018, 10:28 PM
Any new updates?

I pre-ordered the G19X so the push dagger will be released about the time I have to pay for that and will sell out before I'm ready to buy. Lol!

RevolverRob
01-08-2018, 03:38 PM
Do we have an estimated price? May just have to replace my CP with this as its not really working for me. Had a BCM Colonel that was okay but the design ended up being hard for me to conceal. Maybe this will be the middle ground.

What's the difficulty you're having with a CP? If you want to start a thread, a few of us are more "knife guys" than "gun guys" we might be able to make some suggestions for you.

Ballistic_RT
01-10-2018, 08:43 PM
What's the difficulty you're having with a CP? If you want to start a thread, a few of us are more "knife guys" than "gun guys" we might be able to make some suggestions for you.

My main issue with the CP is the way it is designed to be carried. Having it OWB handle down I have ran into issues with shirts riding up and exposing it when reaching for objects. Now how much of a viable issue that is is debatable, however I would still like to avoid it if possible. I have it in a DSG sheathe currently.

RevolverRob
01-10-2018, 09:49 PM
My main issue with the CP is the way it is designed to be carried. Having it OWB handle down I have ran into issues with shirts riding up and exposing it when reaching for objects. Now how much of a viable issue that is is debatable, however I would still like to avoid it if possible. I have it in a DSG sheathe currently.

Ah, I've had the same problem. Turn the knife horizontal and place the handle of it just laterally of your belt buckle, I mean right there...it'll look like it is part of your belt-buckle under a shirt. Use the wrap around to secure it tightly around the belt. In my experience the downward angle works if you have long shirts or a cover garment, but the average t-shirt is a bit short (tip, use genuine golf shirts they have longer hems to stay tucked in when swinging a golf club).

I have been running mine horizontal for years; in EWO I had no problem with in-fight access and speed is not compromised horizontal relative to downward angle. The only thing that occurs is that horizontal you have a tendency to pull the blade past the midline, when drawing quickly. In my experience this isn't a major problem. Not saying it couldn't be...but given the uptick in concealment and virtually no change in speed of draw, I'm satisfied.

-R

Ballistic_RT
01-10-2018, 10:35 PM
Ah, I've had the same problem. Turn the knife horizontal and place the handle of it just laterally of your belt buckle, I mean right there...it'll look like it is part of your belt-buckle under a shirt. Use the wrap around to secure it tightly around the belt. In my experience the downward angle works if you have long shirts or a cover garment, but the average t-shirt is a bit short (tip, use genuine golf shirts they have longer hems to stay tucked in when swinging a golf club).

I have been running mine horizontal for years; in EWO I had no problem with in-fight access and speed is not compromised horizontal relative to downward angle. The only thing that occurs is that horizontal you have a tendency to pull the blade past the midline, when drawing quickly. In my experience this isn't a major problem. Not saying it couldn't be...but given the uptick in concealment and virtually no change in speed of draw, I'm satisfied.

-R

Ill give that a try. May have to augment a bit. Im right handed, left eye dominant. So i carry my handgun on the left side and the CP with the handle to the right hip for right hand access.

SouthNarc
01-17-2018, 11:36 AM
Allllrighty then!

After ALOT of ass pain with Amazon we've taken control of customer fulfillment and are doing it ourselves on the push dagger.

This is experimental and hopefully won't be to buggy. We had to do this after Amazon sent back all of our inventory because they won't allow "push knives"

Anyway here's the link and they're live so go get 'em.

I appreciate everyone's patience on this. Tom is already making DSG sheaths that are really slick and better than the stock model.


https://shivworkspg.com/

DI1
01-17-2018, 11:46 AM
Order in!

Crusader8207
01-17-2018, 12:03 PM
ordered!

JaredW
01-17-2018, 12:23 PM
Ordered! Thanks for getting these out!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Wondering Beard
01-17-2018, 01:16 PM
Done!

Jackdog
01-17-2018, 01:21 PM
Ordered!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BillSWPA
01-17-2018, 01:26 PM
Allllrighty then!

After ALOT of ass pain with Amazon we've taken control of customer fulfillment and are doing it ourselves on the push dagger.

This is experimental and hopefully won't be to buggy. We had to do this after Amazon sent back all of our inventory because they won't allow "push knives"

Anyway here's the link and they're live so go get 'em.

I appreciate everyone's patience on this. Tom is already making DSG sheaths that are really slick and better than the stock model.


https://shivworkspg.com/

Glad you got this worked out. Surprised and disappointed with Amazon that they couldn’t figure this out right from the start.

SouthNarc
01-17-2018, 02:01 PM
Glad you got this worked out. Surprised and disappointed with Amazon that they couldn’t figure this out right from the start.

HUGE pain in the ass with them on this blade.

El Cid
01-17-2018, 09:09 PM
Tom is already making DSG sheaths that are really slick and better than the stock model.



@Dark Star Gear any chance we can get a peek? I didn't see it on the website. Thanks!

El Cid
01-17-2018, 09:30 PM
He posted a picture in a comment thread on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/DarkStarGear/photos/p.1749721055078501/1749721055078501/?type=3

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/26239925_1749721055078501_6963657857062805243_n.jp g?oh=6424316497dc4ae4261e03181d80e6a1&oe=5AF23ABD

Perfect - thanks! I was having a devil of a time trying to figure out how to "@" his screen name. Lol!

Dark Star Gear
01-17-2018, 10:46 PM
Links to the live and trainer sheaths. They're a standard vertical clip-on with the same 1.75" clip. Works well with nearly all clothing. Wear the clip on the pants and under the belt to keep things tighter.

Live blade (https://darkstargear.com/product/swpdl/)
Trainer blade (https://darkstargear.com/product/swpdt/)

They won't ship until after SHOT Show.

Crusader8207
01-22-2018, 01:42 PM
Received my push dagger and trainer today. The knife feels awesome in the hand. I look forward to training with it. The sheath definitely needs some work. As it stands, I'm not able to get a good grip on it without the sheath and my knuckles coming in contact with each other. The Kydex used is .93 and is very thick. I think it can be sculpted differently but I may just opt for one from DSG. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180122/2b64d3d8a8a654f1bd8ee59cf6752247.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180122/b895335a85f65c2b5b6ba45d04d30d0f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180122/d6d5fb73021cb114987279721da6f79c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

blues
01-22-2018, 02:01 PM
The version I received from SouthNarc, (thanks again, Craig), didn't come with a PTD loop, it came with the spring clip that Tom will use on his sheathes but with 3M Dual Lock to secure it. I have the same issue as far as clearing knuckles and will have to trim some of the material to allow more space for easier access.

How do you like horizontal deployment vs. setting it up for vertical access?

Crusader8207
01-22-2018, 02:33 PM
The version I received from SouthNarc, (thanks again, Craig), didn't come with a PTD loop, it came with the spring clip that Tom will use on his sheathes but with 3M Dual Lock to secure it. I have the same issue as far as clearing knuckles and will have to trim some of the material to allow more space for easier access.

How do you like horizontal deployment vs. setting it up for vertical access?

I will work with when I get home tonight and give you a better idea. I personally think vertical access AIWB is going to be my preference .

blues
01-22-2018, 02:47 PM
I will work with when I get home tonight and give you a better idea. I personally think vertical access AIWB is going to be my preference .

Here's how mine is mounted at the moment:

23189

23190

Crusader8207
01-22-2018, 03:03 PM
Here's how mine is mounted at the moment:

23189

23190

Looks good, I'm thinking about it being slightly angled. Will be working on it.

blues
01-22-2018, 03:13 PM
Looks good, I'm thinking about it being slightly angled. Will be working on it.

That's one thing that can be accomplished with the Dual Lock secured spring clip or PTD loop fairly easily. Look forward to seeing what you come up with. I may have a loop somewhere that I can replace the spring with if it proves superior.

SouthNarc
01-22-2018, 06:10 PM
The Chinese just CANNOT get kydex right and with the language barrier over email and the phone we've kinda' conceded. The DSG is leaps and bounds ahead of the stock model.

blues
01-22-2018, 06:54 PM
The Chinese just CANNOT get kydex right and with the language barrier over email and the phone we've kinda' conceded. The DSG is leaps and bounds ahead of the stock model.

Well, just be glad you didn't name the knife "The Claw"

http://stujay.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/get-smart-CRAW2.jpg

:p

CWM11B
01-22-2018, 07:01 PM
Trainer/live combo ordered. Bad ass looking blade. I carried an original CS urban skinner on my vest for years. Look forward to getting this set. Definitely going to find a way to train with you Southnarc, be like old times, plus a long time coming catch up.

STI
01-23-2018, 02:15 PM
Is it a true dagger with a second edge? My state disallows daggers.

Honestly I cannot figure out whether a concealed single edge push knife is legal in Washington, I'd appreciate help if anyone knows. Yes I've read the RCW.

blues
01-23-2018, 02:22 PM
Is it a true dagger with a second edge? My state disallows daggers.

Honestly I cannot figure out whether a concealed single edge push knife is legal in Washington, I'd appreciate help if anyone knows. Yes I've read the RCW.

No. It is a single edge.

I can't tell you whether this link (http://www.knifeup.com/washington-knife-laws/) is up to date or accurate but it may be a start...

STI
01-23-2018, 02:51 PM
No. It is a single edge.

I can't tell you whether this link (http://www.knifeup.com/washington-knife-laws/) is up to date or accurate but it may be a start...

Read that. The hard part here is there's an ambiguous "dangerous weapons" verbiage in the RCW. I'm almost certain it prohibits concealed carry of a sap. I just don't know if a push knife fits in there.

blues
01-23-2018, 02:56 PM
Read that. The hard part here is there's an ambiguous "dangerous weapons" verbiage in the RCW. I'm almost certain it prohibits concealed carry of a sap. I just don't know if a push knife fits in there.

The laws are (in my view) intentionally left vague so that it allows interpretation by the state to determine whether to pursue prosecution. The problem lies in failure to define various terms so where one officer might arrest, another would send you on your way for a mere technical violation where no intent of violence was present. It's a crap shoot at best.

Here in NC, I have my doubts about the legality of carry of the push dagger (even though I don't consider it a dagger, per se). That said, in my county I doubt that most of the deputies would make an issue of it absent some contributing cause.

For anyone else interested in trying to make some sense of their own state's laws, KnifeUp (http://www.knifeup.com/knife-laws/) may help with your research.

Drang
01-23-2018, 03:27 PM
Read that. The hard part here is there's an ambiguous "dangerous weapons" verbiage in the Revised Code of Washington. I'm almost certain it prohibits concealed carry of a sap. I just don't know if a push knife fits in there.

Clarification for those not in the Evergreen State. ;)

Edit to add: I believe concealed carry of a "dagger" is still prohibited. I think knife laws illustrate the absurdity of the way laws are written even better than gun control laws: What is a "dirk"? or a "dagger", for that mater? Is an assisted opening knife that same as a switchblade?

As for saps, last time I looked, which may have been a couple of revisions ago, there was specific language regarding "slung shot", which is actually a reference to saps and blackjacks, or for that matter a bar of soap in a sock, not a forked stick and a rubber band.

STI
01-23-2018, 04:00 PM
Clinch pick and push knife are all for naught. A little more poking around shows Seattle's "dangerous weapons" includes all fixed blades.

Somebody needs to make a folding push knife

McD
01-23-2018, 08:23 PM
Received mine today. Nice!! And, while I have a DSG sheath on order, the sheaths that came with my set are actually more than adequate. No knuckle knocking on mine and excellent retention and deployment.

DI1
01-23-2018, 09:03 PM
Received mine today as well. Very happy with the knife, have DSG sheath on order.
My sheath doesn’t hit my knuckles, but has very little retention (easily fixed with a heat gun).
Really great design!

BillSWPA
01-23-2018, 11:28 PM
The laws are (in my view) intentionally left vague so that it allows interpretation by the state to determine whether to pursue prosecution. The problem lies in failure to define various terms so where one officer might arrest, another would send you on your way for a mere technical violation where no intent of violence was present. It's a crap shoot at best.

Here in NC, I have my doubts about the legality of carry of the push dagger (even though I don't consider it a dagger, per se). That said, in my county I doubt that most of the deputies would make an issue of it absent some contributing cause.

For anyone else interested in trying to make some sense of their own state's laws, KnifeUp (http://www.knifeup.com/knife-laws/) may help with your research.

I just checked that site for Pennsylvania, and as an attorney admitted to practice in PA, I disagree with that site’s conclusions re: double edge knives being illegal. However, that misunderstanding is sufficiently widespread that a double edge knife is something I would avoid carrying in PA.

It is often vary, very difficult to tell what is and is not allowed in a given state. I often can’t reach a definite yes or no conclusion on some knives in some states after hours of reading cases from that state.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BillSWPA
01-24-2018, 11:43 AM
One other point: when deciding if a push dagger is legal in your state, you not only need to consider the specific banned knife characteristics, but also the impact of any “catch-all” clause in the statute. This might read something like any implement designed to cause serious injury or death and serves no common lawful purpose.

There has been at least 1 conviction in Pennsylvania for carrying a folding knife with a blade that could lock parallel or perpendicular to the handle, so fixed v. folding may not be a strong legal position.

Southnarc made a good decision in making these single edged, but in many states that might not get us much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DI1
01-24-2018, 06:21 PM
I added a Bladerigs metal clip to the stock sheath and fixed the retention issue. Much better now!
Still awaiting the DSG sheath ( I realize they won’t ship until after SHOT), always good to have options...

eaglefrq
01-25-2018, 09:49 AM
Would love to get one of these, but they appear to be illegal to carry concealed (clipped to my belt under a shirt) due to the "like kind" wording in VA knife laws.

CWM11B
01-26-2018, 06:05 PM
Got my combo pack today, I really like it. It is illegal to CC in NC, but not OC from my reading of the statute. Active LE should be good to go. I'll figure out how to make it work. Even if I can't, I'm happy to support Craig for old times sake!

blues
01-26-2018, 06:31 PM
Got my combo pack today, I really like it. It is illegal to CC in NC, but not OC from my reading of the statute. Active LE should be good to go. I'll figure out how to make it work. Even if I can't, I'm happy to support Craig for old times sake!

Thanks for posting that up. My reading of the relevant statutes made it sound a no-go though I "doubt" that the locals would make much of an issue under most circumstances. Then again, I've been around the block a time or two and know just how much such assumptions are worth. Glad to have your take on it.

CYA.

dontshakepandas
01-26-2018, 07:34 PM
I tried really hard to talk myself out of buying one, but I caved today. I'm excited to try it out.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Hizzie
07-17-2018, 08:21 PM
So who is actually carrying one of these and how are you doing so?

Holmes375
07-17-2018, 09:33 PM
I carry mine in a horizontal Dark Star sheath at 11:00 for a right hand draw.

SeriousStudent
07-17-2018, 11:05 PM
I carry mine at 5 o'clock on the right hip, on my belt above a back wallet pocket.

It's very easy to draw in response to a "Gimme yer money!"

blues
07-18-2018, 08:05 AM
I carry mine at 5 o'clock on the right hip, on my belt above a back wallet pocket.

It's very easy to draw in response to a "Gimme yer money!"

"Your money or your life knife!"

SeriousStudent
07-18-2018, 11:00 AM
That's pretty much the case.

blues
07-18-2018, 03:53 PM
That's pretty much the case.

I see what you did there...you ol' rascal!

https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/catalog/image/catalog/1488243700_51_991_1.jpg

Guerrero
07-18-2018, 03:54 PM
I see what you did there...you ol' rascal!

https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/catalog/image/catalog/1488243700_51_991_1.jpg

You made your point.

Cecil Burch
07-18-2018, 04:55 PM
So who is actually carrying one of these and how are you doing so?

I carry it in a Dark Star Gear clip on vertical sheath generally right in front or right behind (depending on dress that day) the hip.

Holmes375
07-18-2018, 08:34 PM
I carry mine in a horizontal Dark Star sheath at 11:00 for a right hand draw.

Pay no further attention to my inability to read and comprehend.

I carry a Clinch Pick, not a push poker.

My keyboard and I shall see ourselves out ;)

orionz06
07-18-2018, 08:46 PM
Pay no further attention to my inability to read and comprehend.

I carry a Clinch Pick, not a push poker.

My keyboard and I shall see ourselves out ;)

Ha! That makes me feel better. I was trying to figure out how the PD sheath was seen as horizontal.

Cecil Burch
07-19-2018, 12:46 PM
Also, that metal clip that DSG uses is so grippy that I will use the same carry position without a belt, as in wearing sweatpants or gi pants running to the store or the academy. In fact, I generally pair that with the DSG j-frame holster as well.

Hizzie
07-19-2018, 12:49 PM
Also, that metal clip that DSG uses is so grippy that I will use the same carry position without a belt, as in wearing sweatpants or gi pants running to the store or the academy. In fact, I generally pair that with the DSG j-frame holster as well.

So strong hand weapons only?

Cecil Burch
07-19-2018, 01:02 PM
So strong hand weapons only?


No. I was not clear in the previous post. The PD is carried on the left side.

My apologies.

Hizzie
07-19-2018, 01:41 PM
No. I was not clear in the previous post. The PD is carried on the left side.

My apologies.

No worries. Thanks for your input. I’m looking for a light enough workout shorts/pants/sweats/pj’s setup.

Cecil Burch
07-19-2018, 02:12 PM
No worries. Thanks for your input. I’m looking for a light enough workout shorts/pants/sweats/pj’s setup.


I wouldn't say it was "light", but it is not so heavy that I have found any issues on sweatpants running up to the grocery store at 9pm

Hizzie
07-19-2018, 02:34 PM
I wouldn't say it was "light", but it is not so heavy that I have found any issues on sweatpants running up to the grocery store at 9pm

I wonder if yanking the G10 off in lieu of cordwrap would save much weight.

Cecil Burch
07-19-2018, 05:00 PM
I wonder if yanking the G10 off in lieu of cordwrap would save much weight.

Holy crap. That is genius. I love the cord wrap on my CP. Why not the PD too?

Hizzie
07-19-2018, 05:07 PM
Holy crap. That is genius. I love the cord wrap on my CP. Why not the PD too?

If you try it, weigh everything.

SeriousStudent
07-19-2018, 07:30 PM
I wonder if yanking the G10 off in lieu of cordwrap would save much weight.

I sense a limited release push dagger........

Or maybe Version 2.0?

Hizzie
07-19-2018, 09:42 PM
I sense a limited release push dagger........

Or maybe Version 2.0?

That sounds like a Craig question. I only talk to Joe.

runcible
09-01-2019, 12:29 PM
Due to a series of events, I ended up not carrying a gun for two months, both when on and off of work. For some of that period, I had significantly limited use of one of my arms, through nobody's fault but my own. During this time, I carried a Shivworks Push Dagger (hence SPD) full-time, and wanted to write up some thoughts on the matter. Some of these thoughts are centric to push daggers in general, and several are specifically towards the Shivworks option; I will differentiate accordingly. I do not write authoritatively on this matter, nor speak for Craig Douglas nor Joe Watson on these things.

Push daggers in general reduce the number of adaptations for power-striking with an edged weapon; their alternate name of "punch daggers" is very self-descriptive. The video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONH7iHCBVFI describes a wealth of information on the idea in general and the SPD in specific. Being able to fire off a linear or arcing strike sufficient to drive the point into the opponent, with power, is more or less plug-and-play with orthodox boxing. Accessing the push dagger from concealment is much more akin to accessing a pistol from concealment than when accessing a straight blade, particularly as relates to wrist angles and how much vertical travel is required to clear the blade from the sheath. This is particularly emphasized when drawing a push dagger from AIWB into a modified thumb-pectoral-index to setup for bravehearting or launching strikes, with the main adaptation to that being the thumb being folded down rather than flagged upwards.

Many push daggers have a symmetric design as relates to the handle-shaping; this is seemingly desirable due to equal access and grip characteristics to either hand. However, I don't find that to reflect well when power-striking against a hard-surface for practice, with impact loading onto the lower of the two knuckles choked up against the neck of the blade. More so, to optimize use of such a characteristic, the push dagger would have to be carried closer-to or at center-line; which is more difficult to setup for most without the use of a bridging option such as the PHLster Flex panels. My preference thus leans towards a push dagger with an angled handle, that the blade's orientation more closely align with the run of the forearm bones when grasped between the first and second fingers. Related to that, more minimalist push daggers don't fully fill out the fist, and that allows for movement under impact and for the outer surface of the fingers to bear the brunt of it. There's a deeper dive available on such geometry; but Craig addresses it much more thoroughly in the link above and Joe accomplished such well in the designing of the SPD.

The SPD has a hand-filling grip, at an angle that readily aligns the tip when held in a convulsive grip with the thumb tucked, that remains static in orientation throughout repeated power-striking. It transfers the force of impact into the palm of the hand as opposed to the outer surface of the fingers. There is minor debate as to whether the blade should be aligned with the second knuckles of the clenched fist (maximum alignment with the arm bones) or with the neck buried as close to the first knuckles as allowed for (blade is parallel-to but not aligned with the arm bones, but the wrist is neutral); but I believe that anywhere at either point or within that range to be acceptable, with a preference to the latter.

As far as methodology of use in entanglement, the item that jumps out foremost is an adaptation to defeating a wrist-tie. Pummeling directly towards the opponent's thumb remains the same as with any other contact weapon; where practice departs is in pummeling free and then retracting directly to the modified TPI, from which linear strikes can be launched immediately if appropriate and desired. This is as opposed to continuing the pummeling motion upwards until the knife prescribes a circular arc, terminating in a low-line strike into the opponent. As with more traditionally-shaped aluminum trainers (e.g. straight blade trainers, folding knife trainers), this is not appropriate to do with any degree of force or with weight behind it (h/t to Craig for that terminology); however, NOK Training Knives now has a foam replica available for use during such training, available for immediate purchase. Hitting a training partner with a metal training knife is unkind at best and injurious at the worst; but striking them with a metal training push dagger is that and to a much greater degree: please don't do that.

On the equipment side of things, my observation is that more-pistol-shaped knives benefit from sheaths set up more alike to modern holsters than not. A muzzle\tip pad is more user-preference than not; but a wing- or claw-like feature offers significant dividends. The OEM sheath for the SPD is out-of-the-box compatible with the PHLster Tuckstrut ( https://www.phlsterholsters.com/shop/tuckstrut-retrofit-kit/ ), though different spacers are called for. I use some nylon spacer washers that I have for other applications, but rubber washers as are common in the kydex space work just fine. If desiring a pad, so that the grip is deviated to ride closer to the body, then the use of Velcro Coins (pile-type) and the Dark Star Gear made Flat Pad are pretty accessible options. Coins can be purchased here and at other retailers: https://www.hookandloop.com/products/coins/velcro-brand-velcoin-fasteners ; Flat Pads can be purchased from: https://darkstargear.com/product/flatpad/ .

As far as Clinch Pick vs SPD, I enjoy and prefer both, and discriminate between the scale of the individual load-out in question. The Clinch Pick plays very well with more comprehensive setups of equipment, given its smaller size and frequent carry angled\inverted in the off-side inguinal crease. The Push Dagger does its best for me when paired with a minimum of other equipment or when a shorter\slimmer shirt is worn, which would be in-conflict with below-belt wear of the Clinch Pick. In example of this are the SPD worn off-side AIWB in complement to a strong-side AIWBed pistol, or the SPD worn strong-side AIWB as primary with a light worn off-side AIWB. As a slighter person with a <30" waist and a comprehensive work requirement for on-body equipment, I'd prefer the Clinch pick during working hours; especially so as to accommodate an additional magazine worn off-side AIWB. I prefer the Push Dagger as a primary when sans pistol, particularly as relates to either rehabilitative periods and date nights.

Shivworks Push Daggers can be purchased from https://shivworkspg.com/product-category/push-blade/ , https://warriorpoetsupplyco.com/push-dagger-shivworks/ , and https://warriorpoetsupplyco.com/push-dagger-and-push-dagger-trainer-package-deal-shivworks/ (presently a dead link).

Totem Polar
09-01-2019, 01:56 PM
That’s a solid post, IMO.

Tangential: I’d love to see a non-metallic SPD/sheath variant for some primary applications. (Just so you know, Craig)

Hizzie
09-01-2019, 05:01 PM
Finally got to handle one. The handle feels a little big/bulky to me. I saw Craig post something about a smaller handler version and that excites me. Until then I have to pass.

p/B1ggTrRA4lw

runcible
09-01-2019, 05:30 PM
(Argh, I see typos.)


Sidheshooter,

Thank you for the kind words!


Hizzie,

It's definitely thicker and longer than most competing options that I've handled, and I'm grateful for that; for reference, I wore a 2 to 4 size USGI glove for nomex flyers and green liners. I regard it as a very striking-optimized design: that breadth and girth to the grip keeps it locked in the hand and at an enduring orientation. The symmetric, lower-profile\shorter-handled, and those with thinner grips consistently roll or rock within my grip when hitting things; and some of them bite into my knuckles pretty aggressively when they're doing just that. I put such push knives in the category of being intended more for wear than usage, and frankly they'd turned me off to the idea of running one for quite a while.

While it's got a greater lateral profile than most knives, as worn; it's still less than almost any gun of substance, and I believe concealable with a wing\claw.

(...if\when Craig sells a smaller version, I'm buying one. I'm ecstatic with the present one, so why not?)

blues
09-01-2019, 05:38 PM
Mine tucks reasonably well under a t-shirt without showing. Placement is everything here.

I'm hoping to get one of Tom's (Dark Star Gear) soonish. But he's playing hard to get with me. (Just kiddin'.)

I really like the way it fits my hand, the OEM sheath is the biggest negative for me because of fitment / placement...and even so it still works pretty darn well.

blues
09-04-2019, 11:52 AM
Big fan of the Shivworks push dagger. The Dark Star Gear sheath is highly recommended.

That fickle fella that runs DSG finally deigned to take my order earlier today. ;)

Looking forward to the upgrade.

blues
10-02-2019, 06:18 PM
Well, my sheath for the PD came in today from Tom, orionz06, at DSG and it doesn't disappoint.

I had to change the hardware over for gripping with strong hand, and hit it a couple times with the heat gun to get it just right for my PD, but five minutes later it was good to go.

Hides well under a t-shirt, riding at about 11...with a J frame at about 1.30

Releases slicker than cat poop but snaps back in with authority. Get one.

43209

blues
10-03-2019, 09:07 AM
I am curious how many of you that carry the Shivworks PD have it set up for support side draw vs. strong side draw. Clearly there is a rationale for both methods.

Since I have mine (currently) set up for strong side draw, I was testing support side draw from that position. While not ideal, it works well enough in a pinch though the grip is not as strong as in the standard orientation.

Still, I find that I can retrieve with my left hand, and get a decent grip with the PD secured between the ring and middle fingers. Allows it to be used to good effect for jabs and thrusts (but with less overall power / stability than standard grip would afford).

Anyone care to share their thoughts and experience?

Wondering Beard
10-03-2019, 11:26 AM
I am curious how many of you that carry the Shivworks PD have it set up for support side draw vs. strong side draw. Clearly there is a rationale for both methods.

Since I have mine (currently) set up for strong side draw, I was testing support side draw from that position. While not ideal, it works well enough in a pinch though the grip is not as strong as in the standard orientation.

Still, I find that I can retrieve with my left hand, and get a decent grip with the PD secured between the ring and middle fingers. Allows it to be used to good effect for jabs and thrusts (but with less overall power / stability than standard grip would afford).

Anyone care to share their thoughts and experience?

I can't carry one here (ianal but my read of Va law makes the push dagger a no-no as far as I'm concerned), but I have experimented a little with it and if I were to carry one it would be weak side AIWB (around 10 o'clock) to. 1) my gun is strong side AIWB, so there's no room and this sort of knife, for me, would be used when things have already gotten to "hands on" and AIWB works best for that sort of scenario, as far as I'm concerned. 2) The basic simplicity of use of that design makes it work very easily for my less skilled weak hand; I could get more out of it strong hand but see 1). 3) I can, though not very smoothly, get it in my strong hand in some sort of strange reverse grip (blade sticking out between the ring and little finger) and get some jabs and stabs in, so it's somewhat ambidextrous from that position.

All that said, I haven't really worked with it in a good long time so ... I may change my mind on the matter

Madnik
12-25-2019, 05:24 PM
My family gets me. A combo pack was wrapped and waiting for me under the tree. The live blade presently rides support side, just left of my buckle, static corded on a repurposed spare Surefire landyard.

Merry Christmas!

runcible
02-27-2020, 06:28 PM
Tardy crossposting...

LittleLebowski
02-27-2020, 08:59 PM
#SoMuchWant (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=SoMuchWant)

runcible
02-27-2020, 09:12 PM
(That’s the stock sheath, PHLster Tuckstrut, and RCS wedge; as described previously. I just neglected to post the pictures way back when. Everything is stock or off the shelf.)

orionz06
02-28-2020, 08:10 AM
I need to work up a teaser...

runcible
02-28-2020, 10:05 AM
I need to work up a teaser...

/instigating intensifies

orionz06
02-29-2020, 09:55 PM
So Runcible and I are working on a product for the PD that overlaps our needs damn near by 90%.
One of the issues we've both seen with our PD sheaths is the ability to easily account for the manufacturing variances while allowing for a good master grip, adequate retention, and practical concealment and attachments.

The stock PD leave very little room for adjustment unlike the Clinch Pick. What we've been able to do is get to a point where we can get the required adjustment and clearance with the range of current and future PD's.

Timeline is open still, it's still a work in progress, but it's on the front burner.

blues
02-29-2020, 10:04 PM
So Runcible and I are working on a product for the PD that overlaps our needs damn near by 90%.
One of the issues we've both seen with our PD sheaths is the ability to easily account for the manufacturing variances while allowing for a good master grip, adequate retention, and practical concealment and attachments.

The stock PD leave very little room for adjustment unlike the Clinch Pick. What we've been able to do is get to a point where we can get the required adjustment and clearance with the range of current and future PD's.

Timeline is open still, it's still a work in progress, but it's on the front burner.

Looking forward to seeing what you're working on.

Since I hit yours with the heat gun that day we spoke, it's been great. Excellent retention but releases with a nice tug. (Definitely want to give some care while re-sheathing, though.) I also switched it back to being drawn by the support hand to increase my options.

orionz06
02-29-2020, 10:12 PM
Yeah, this is to avoid that. Actually have a customer, perhaps a poster here, with the same issue. Or the knives changed in production just enough to invalidate the current molds. Gotta find out when the last batch came in.

All of which is easily handled with the design we're working on.

blues
02-29-2020, 10:16 PM
Yeah, this is to avoid that. Actually have a customer, perhaps a poster here, with the same issue. Or the knives changed in production just enough to invalidate the current molds. Gotta find out when the last batch came in.

All of which is easily handled with the design we're working on.

I don't remember exactly when Craig sent it to me, Tom, but I had it for some months before I ordered your sheath. So, I'd bet there is some variation in the tolerances even going back some time.

Hizzie
03-23-2020, 05:09 PM
p/B-Fu8fvJt1L

https://shivworkspg.com/product/shivworks-el-nino-pre-production-prototypes/

blues
03-23-2020, 05:26 PM
Nice setup at a very reasonable price.

SeriousStudent
03-23-2020, 07:43 PM
Nice setup at a very reasonable price.

Whew! Snagged the last one. It's gonna be a present to one of the minions at work. The lad is showing the proper attitude towards weaponry, and that needs to be encouraged. :)

RevolverRob
03-23-2020, 08:52 PM
Whew! Snagged the last one. It's gonna be a present to one of the minions at work. The lad is showing the proper attitude towards weaponry, and that needs to be encouraged. :)

Nice! I almost hesitated, but ended up pulling the trigger, getting the 3rd one left.

Hizzie
03-24-2020, 11:50 AM
Wish I could’ve. I’ll have to wait on production models.

RevolverRob
03-25-2020, 12:06 AM
ShivWorks Products Group on IG says production El Niños hopefully later this year (I’ve heard that before...weather guys). So for folks who missed, save ‘dem pennies.

dontshakepandas
04-18-2020, 08:34 PM
Looks like there are 3 of the prototypes in stock as of right now. I snagged one a few hours ago.

dontshakepandas
04-23-2020, 07:58 PM
I got my El Niño prototype in the mail today and I have to say... they got it perfect.

I ordered one of the original push daggers when they came out and returned it because it was just too big to work well for me.

This is just enough smaller to conceal easily and still big enough to get a good grip. I actually think it feels better in my hand than the full size.

The new sheath is great too. I took it straight out of the box and clipped it to some athletic shorts and took the kid for a walk.

shannongt3
05-09-2020, 04:45 PM
We just posted a few more El Ninos and trainers for sale.

RevolverRob
05-09-2020, 05:28 PM
We just posted a few more El Ninos and trainers for sale.

Great news!

If anyone is on the fence, I say get one. I've been carrying mine almost daily. It's effectively perfect for the two specific roles I wanted:

1) AIWB carry in athletic shorts/pants for dog walking with minimal gear.

2) Pocket carry with the sheath mounted on a pocket shield dropped into the side pocket of my vest of jacket.

I find the El Niño works better than a Clinch Pick in these two roles, by being shorter in overall length (easier to conceal) and offering a very secure grip for the draw stroke. I'm much preferring it to a folder clipped to the waistband or a vertical oriented CP.

Jackdog
05-09-2020, 06:55 PM
We just posted a few more El Ninos and trainers for sale.

I missed the earlier buy. I got my order in today!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

eaglefrq
09-24-2020, 05:17 AM
Is the El Nino single or double edged? In VA they specifically list a dagger ass being illegal. But their definition is double edged. If these are single edged, it sounds like they might be legal here.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Joe S
09-24-2020, 06:30 AM
Is the El Nino single or double edged? In VA they specifically list a dagger ass being illegal. But their definition is double edged. If these are single edged, it sounds like they might be legal here.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Single. But I would still carefully review state law and related cases, because if they've got a clause about "deadly weapons" or some such, you're likely to get jammed up. Not sure how a CCW might affect this.

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/virginia/

eaglefrq
09-24-2020, 08:24 PM
Single. But I would still carefully review state law and related cases, because if they've got a clause about "deadly weapons" or some such, you're likely to get jammed up. Not sure how a CCW might affect this.

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/virginia/

Thank you. I was planning on doing a lot more research prior to purchasing, I just wanted to make sure it was single. If it was double, I wasn't going to bother since I know that would be illegal. I appreciate your concern, and unfortunately, the CHP won't help with that in VA.

RevolverRob
09-25-2020, 01:39 PM
Thank you. I was planning on doing a lot more research prior to purchasing, I just wanted to make sure it was single. If it was double, I wasn't going to bother since I know that would be illegal. I appreciate your concern, and unfortunately, the CHP won't help with that in VA.

Depending on your needs, the Clinch Pick or another more traditional fixed blade may work better for you?

The El Niño is great and I love mine, but it is a very specific role knife for me (gym shorts/lounge wear). Once I put on a pair of pants with belt loops, I go straight to a Clinch Pick.

Wingate's Hairbrush
09-25-2020, 03:42 PM
Thank you. I was planning on doing a lot more research prior to purchasing...Had to look into VA knife laws once and strongly suggest your research be thorough and you err on the side of caution in final choice. Relevant laws are open to a precipitously wide berth in interpretation.

If you plan to carry concealed, you'd do well to stick with a folder and a decidedly compact, civilized looking one that appears intended as a "tool" rather than a "weapon".

Let us know how it all shakes out...

eaglefrq
09-26-2020, 06:41 PM
Had to look into VA knife laws once and strongly suggest your research be thorough and you err on the side of caution in final choice. Relevant laws are open to a precipitously wide berth in interpretation.

If you plan to carry concealed, you'd do well to stick with a folder and a decidedly compact, civilized looking one that appears intended as a "tool" rather than a "weapon".

Let us know how it all shakes out...

Yes, I've done some more research and it looks like the way the laws are written and could be interpreted, this would be a no-go. It looks like I will stick with a folder for now.

BK14
10-17-2020, 10:22 PM
Yeah, this is to avoid that. Actually have a customer, perhaps a poster here, with the same issue. Or the knives changed in production just enough to invalidate the current molds. Gotta find out when the last batch came in.

All of which is easily handled with the design we're working on.

Any update on this development? I just picked up a push dagger, and it’ll be perfect for running once I get a clip-on sheath for it. Trying to find a way to integrate with my duty gear as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Norville
10-18-2020, 09:19 AM
ShivWorks Products Group on IG says production El Niños hopefully later this year (I’ve heard that before...weather guys). So for folks who missed, save ‘dem pennies.

Looks like El Niños and trainers are in stock :)

SouthNarc
10-19-2020, 08:11 AM
Looks like El Niños and trainers are in stock :)

They are indeed!

SLUZENE
10-29-2020, 01:04 PM
Anyone have the weight of the El Nino available? I didn't see it on the Shivworks PG website.

SouthNarc
10-29-2020, 01:39 PM
Anyone have the weight of the El Nino available? I didn't see it on the Shivworks PG website.

4.4 ounces without the sheath and 5.8 with by my kitchen scale.

SLUZENE
10-29-2020, 01:50 PM
Thank you Craig!

Hambo
10-29-2020, 05:41 PM
4.4 ounces without the sheath and 5.8 with by my kitchen scale.

Any ETA on El Ninos? I'm chomping at the bit for a push dagger. If the ETA is P-F Soon, I'll just buy the big one.

SLUZENE
10-29-2020, 07:04 PM
Any ETA on El Ninos? I'm chomping at the bit for a push dagger. If the ETA is P-F Soon, I'll just buy the big one.

They show as in stock.

https://shivworkspg.com/product/shivworks-el-nino/

joker581
10-29-2020, 07:27 PM
Any ETA on El Ninos? I'm chomping at the bit for a push dagger. If the ETA is P-F Soon, I'll just buy the big one.

They are shipping. Mine should have showed up today.

SouthNarc
10-29-2020, 08:47 PM
Any ETA on El Ninos? I'm chomping at the bit for a push dagger. If the ETA is P-F Soon, I'll just buy the big one.

We got ‘em!

https://shivworkspg.com/product/shivworks-el-nino/

Hambo
10-30-2020, 05:23 AM
They show as in stock.


They are shipping. Mine should have showed up today.


We got ‘em!

Alrighty then. Got one on the way. :cool:

joker581
10-30-2020, 08:35 AM
I opened my El Nino up when I got home from work this morning and it’s great. I still like my original push dagger, but this one is more compact with better grip texture, a finish that I like better, and a sheath that blows the original PD factory sheath out of the water. From what I’ve seen so far, there wasn’t a single change that wasn’t a significant improvement over the original.

Savage Hands
03-09-2023, 04:12 PM
We got ‘em!

https://shivworkspg.com/product/shivworks-el-nino/


I'm late to the party but I ordered one!!! :cool:

Since I'm in California (Boo!!!) I had to look up the legality and I'll be Open Carrying it haha

1.1. Knives that may be worn, but not concealed

This category of laws applies to “dirks” and “daggers.”
Penal Code 21310 PC makes it a crime in California to carry a concealed dirk or dagger.1 The concealed carry of one of these weapons includes:


tucking it into a waistband or other article of clothing, or
carrying it in a purse, pocket, briefcase, backpack, or any other container.

California law, though, has an “open-carry” law for these knives. This means that a person may carry a dirk or dagger openly in public provided that:


the knife is contained within a sheath, and
the sheath is worn suspended from the person’s waist.2

A “dirk” or “dagger” (https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/dirk-or-dagger/) is:


any knife or other instrument with or without a handguard,
that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon, and
may inflict great bodily injury (https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/12022-7/) or death.3

Examples of these knives include:


daggers,
stilettos,
chef’s knives,
ice picks,
fixed blade knives,
bowie knives,
knitting needles, and
scissors.

Carrying a concealed dirk or dagger is a wobbler (https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/laws/wobbler/) in California. This means it can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony.
A misdemeanor offense is punishable by:


custody in county jail for up to one year, and/or
a maximum fine of $1,000.4

A felony offense is punishable by:


imprisonment in county jail for 16 months to up to three years, and/or
a maximum fine of $10,000.5

willie
03-10-2023, 06:33 PM
I'm late to the party but I ordered one!!! :cool:

Since I'm in California (Boo!!!) I had to look up the legality and I'll be Open Carrying it haha

1.1. Knives that may be worn, but not concealed

This category of laws applies to “dirks” and “daggers.”
Penal Code 21310 PC makes it a crime in California to carry a concealed dirk or dagger.1 The concealed carry of one of these weapons includes:


tucking it into a waistband or other article of clothing, or
carrying it in a purse, pocket, briefcase, backpack, or any other container.

California law, though, has an “open-carry” law for these knives. This means that a person may carry a dirk or dagger openly in public provided that:


the knife is contained within a sheath, and
the sheath is worn suspended from the person’s waist.2

A “dirk” or “dagger” (https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/dirk-or-dagger/) is:


any knife or other instrument with or without a handguard,
that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon, and
may inflict great bodily injury (https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/12022-7/) or death.3

Examples of these knives include:


daggers,
stilettos,
chef’s knives,
ice picks,
fixed blade knives,
bowie knives,
knitting needles, and
scissors.

Carrying a concealed dirk or dagger is a wobbler (https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/laws/wobbler/) in California. This means it can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony.
A misdemeanor offense is punishable by:


custody in county jail for up to one year, and/or
a maximum fine of $1,000.4

A felony offense is punishable by:


imprisonment in county jail for 16 months to up to three years, and/or
a maximum fine of $10,000.5


The list omits hat lady's hat pins. Probably that was an oversight. Few today have heard of them.

BobM
04-10-2023, 11:13 AM
SouthNarc , I saw a video on Greg E’s weekly knowledge dump about a new sheath coming out that fits both the trainer and live El Niño. Do you know when I could buy the set that would come with the new sheath?

SouthNarc
04-10-2023, 11:38 AM
SouthNarc , I saw a video on Greg E’s weekly knowledge dump about a new sheath coming out that fits both the trainer and live El Niño. Do you know when I could buy the set that would come with the new sheath?

Hey buddy it's out with beta testers like Greg right now. As soon as we get a consensus that there's nothing major that needs to be changed we'll be releasing them.

runcible
04-10-2023, 01:24 PM
Hey buddy it's out with beta testers like Greg right now. As soon as we get a consensus that there's nothing major that needs to be changed we'll be releasing them.

Andrew's stuff is awesome - I can't wait to see it go live!

NoLock
05-01-2023, 01:33 PM
How close is the blade of the el nino trainer compared to the standard push dagger trainer?

Any idea if an el nino trainer will fit in a DSG standard push dagger trainer sheath?

WobblyPossum
05-01-2023, 01:59 PM
How close is the blade of the el nino trainer compared to the standard push dagger trainer?

Any idea if an el nino trainer will fit in a DSG standard push dagger trainer sheath?

I can confirm when I get home and have them in my hands, but I believe the El Niño and standard Push Dagger have identical blades. Only the handles are different in size.

BobM
05-01-2023, 03:03 PM
SouthNarc , I saw a video on Greg E’s weekly knowledge dump about a new sheath coming out that fits both the trainer and live El Niño. Do you know when I could buy the set that would come with the new sheath?

They are available now with the new sheaths. Should have mine in a few days.

Dark Star Gear
05-01-2023, 08:38 PM
How close is the blade of the el nino trainer compared to the standard push dagger trainer?

Any idea if an el nino trainer will fit in a DSG standard push dagger trainer sheath?

Same blade, different handle.

BobM
05-12-2023, 06:54 PM
They are available now with the new sheaths. Should have mine in a few days.

I’ve had this a week now and have worn it every day except when working. I’ve carried a pocket clip folder about 30 years. Last fall I took Greg Ellifritz’s knife class and an afterward dug out my old TDI knife and trainer with an aftermarket sheath and have worn it since when wearing pants with a belt. I have the clip on factory sheath but didn’t like it.

I got the El Niño package with the new sheath and trainer last Thursday, clipped in my bike shorts and went for an hour ride. I like being able to have it on with whatever I’m wearing. I’ve walked, biked, and lifted with it on.

Porcupine
03-06-2024, 03:37 PM
Well, my sheath for the PD came in today from Tom, orionz06, at DSG and it doesn't disappoint.

I had to change the hardware over for gripping with strong hand, and hit it a couple times with the heat gun to get it just right for my PD, but five minutes later it was good to go.

Hides well under a t-shirt, riding at about 11...with a J frame at about 1.30

Releases slicker than cat poop but snaps back in with authority. Get one.

43209


A few years late here,where can I find this particular sheath? Was this a custom deal?

Dark Star Gear
03-13-2024, 11:18 AM
A few years late here,where can I find this particular sheath? Was this a custom deal?

We now have the APS (https://darkstargear.com/product/aps-pd-lv/), which is a joint effort between runcible that we both wanted for years.

We can still make the one seen, but the APS (https://darkstargear.com/product/aps-pd-lv/) is better all around, IMHO.

NoLock
03-14-2024, 11:43 AM
Does the tool variant work in the live or the drone sheaths?

Especially interested in the Omni sheath.