Need some advice on marksmanship--Newbie

[Shapap]

Hello, long time lurker coming out of the shadows here. Just wanted to say thank you for this site and all the drills/targets/great articles and resource base. Its really helped me out alot. That said, i've been really trying to get my marksmanship down with a handgun and I've seem that have hit a wall. I tend to get a little ocd with these things so i'm not sure if what i'm wanting/expecting more of myself than whats generally perceived proficient accuracy from a service grade pistol, cause I'm starting to get pretty frustrated.

A bit of a background:

I've been mainly a rifle/carbine shooter most of my life. I've gotten pretty confident with my marksmanship and speed (although we all know there is always room for improvement) and I've just recently started getting into handgun shooting. I really love the challenge its giving me, but at the same time I lose confidence in my abilities very quickly from week to week. I haven't yet moved up to the speed shooting and just have been practicing over and over the basics and fundamentals of marksmanship. I figure once I get those down, then I can start going faster (though my logic could be flawed from the start, not sure).

I'm currently using a HK P2000 v2 LEM 9mm (its like a 8lb trigger break I think?) with a Safariland ALS holster. I use the 'Official 50 ft. slow fire pistol targets' at about 7 yards. I always shoot unsupported and just practice slow fire marksmanship. My groups i'm generally happy with, as they are pretty tight and I can make a ragged hole for the most part. The problem is, say I shoot five rounds...I always get atleast one flier, so if i shoot 10 rounds..I get two etc. With the fliers and PMC ammo its generally a 4" group. Without the fliers, its usually about a 2" group. Now the part that really annoys me, is that my groups are always about 1-2 inches Left of the 10 circle, and a couple in the grouping are about 1" low (I catch myself dipping the muzzle with LEM and haven't been able to break myself of it yet.) I Just can't seem to put them exactly where I want them (the 10 circle) and its so random from week to week. One week i'll shoot 1-2" above the 10, and the next week i'll start dipping the muzzle again by 1". Only thing that seems consistent is the 4" group size with the fliers.

Watching all these videos of some of you guys do these drills and FAST tests is like watching superman to me. Most of the time, I can't really see accuracy in the videos, so I'm just assuming they are all going where you want them. So I guess my question is, am I expecting too much of myself? I really want to start going faster, but the 4" groups keep holding me back. In my head I want them all knocking out the 10 circle at about a 1-2" group from 7yards unsupported, but I don't even know if thats a realistic expectation or not, cause I just can't seem to make my body do it.

I practice every saturday on a private range, and I definatly have the drive to get better...I just feel like I've hit a wall, and just can't seem to break myself of just being slightly off when that trigger breaks. I do alot of dry firing...that goes well, and I do ball and dummy drills on the range...and those seem to help a bit (although I keep just barely dipping the muzzle by 1" on paper and it drives me crazy!) How long did it take some of you experienced guys to start putting those rounds where you wanted them? I've considered taking some classes in the future, but right now i'm afraid of being "that guy" that slows down the rest of the class cause I suck.

Sorry for such a long first post, this stuff has really been eating at me for awhile because I really have no idea if I'm even doing decently or just expecting too much like 25 meter rifle accuracy out of a handgun at 7yards. I really appreciate any help/advice you guys have for me.

[Jay Cunningham]

It's difficult to "analyze" over the internet, but I'll give it a shot. First I need to ask you some questions:




How often do you dry fire? You said "a lot" but can you quantify that? What does your dry fire session look like?

When you shoot, what are you looking at? Where are your eyes focused the moment the shot breaks?

Do you have a buddy you can shoot with?

Do you own/use a shot timer?

Can you describe your grip? Can you describe how tight/loose each hand is gripping in percent?

How is your vision? Have you had it checked lately?

[JodyH]

When you shoot, what are you looking at? Where are your eyes focused the moment the shot breaks?

^^^ This ^^^

[Shapap]

Thank you for the replies, I really appreciate it.

I dry fire every night typically for about 15-30min using the wall or coin method. I don't seem to notice any problems with the front sight moving as the trigger breaks.

I focus on the sights all the way through the trigger pull. I take the white dot of the front sight and cover the 10 circle with it...making sure the rears are lined up. Target is a blurry mess at this point. I tend to do a little* better with both eyes open but not much.

No I don't have anyone to shoot with :(

Don't own/use a shot timer yet.

I use the thumbs forward grip as high up on the bore as I can. I'd describe my grip pressure as a firm handshake, about 60% with my shooting hand, and 40%'ish with my support hand (should my support hand be applying more force?)

I wear contact lenses, and the eye I use for aiming is -1.0 weaker than my other one before the lense correction, however with rifles I don't seem to have a problem with shooting straight. A few people have shot my rifles from supported positions after I zeroed them and were able to confirm on paper with the same results.

I should probably mention that I have this problem with all handguns (except revolvers for some strange reason). Even with a .22lr semi auto I shoot about 1-2" left. I've tried placing differant amounts of finger in the trigger, but it seems to not affect me much. I normally just use the pad like I do with rifles as this is whats the most comfortable to me. I've tried using less finger and also more and results seemed to stay the same either way.

I know the information I'm giving probably isn't too helpful and I probably need to spend some time in a physical class, I guess I'm just looking for some specific things to try to improve on so I can build a little bit of confidence and shoot straight before I go.

Thank you for your time and Happy New Years!

[Jay Cunningham]

Try this:

Focus on the top edge of your front sight instead of the dot - focus on it with crystal clarity with both eyes. If you have big white dots on your rear sight, consider blacking them out with a Sharpie.

Try using a 50/50 grip on the gun, but don't ever grip with more force using your shooting hand. You can use a lot more grip with your support hand if you desire, but no more than 50% with your shooting hand.

Try a 1" square at 3 yards for your target.

Ultimately the way you stand and how you grip the gun is largely unimportant when it come to pure marksmanship. As long as you align the sights and press the trigger without disturbing your sight alignment you will hit. One minor thing about your grip is if you use too much strong hand it can induce a bit of a tremor due to fatigue - have you ever noticed this? Do your groups seem to open up as your range session progresses?

Can you describe how you do you ball-and-dummy drills?


I'm not saying the above is going to magically cure you - and everybody has their own opinion - but I work with lots of new shooters and am usually pretty successful. The Internet diagnosis thing can be tough though.





Thank you for the replies, I really appreciate it.

I dry fire every night typically for about 15-30min using the wall or coin method. I don't seem to notice any problems with the front sight moving as the trigger breaks.

I focus on the sights all the way through the trigger pull. I take the white dot of the front sight and cover the 10 circle with it...making sure the rears are lined up. Target is a blurry mess at this point. I tend to do a little* better with both eyes open but not much.

No I don't have anyone to shoot with :(

Don't own/use a shot timer yet.

I use the thumbs forward grip as high up on the bore as I can. I'd describe my grip pressure as a firm handshake, about 60% with my shooting hand, and 40%'ish with my support hand (should my support hand be applying more force?)

I wear contact lenses, and the eye I use for aiming is -1.0 weaker than my other one before the lense correction, however with rifles I don't seem to have a problem with shooting straight. A few people have shot my rifles from supported positions after I zeroed them and were able to confirm on paper with the same results.

I should probably mention that I have this problem with all handguns (except revolvers for some strange reason). Even with a .22lr semi auto I shoot about 1-2" left. I've tried placing differant amounts of finger in the trigger, but it seems to not affect me much. I normally just use the pad like I do with rifles as this is whats the most comfortable to me. I've tried using less finger and also more and results seemed to stay the same either way.

I know the information I'm giving probably isn't too helpful and I probably need to spend some time in a physical class, I guess I'm just looking for some specific things to try to improve on so I can build a little bit of confidence and shoot straight before I go.

Thank you for your time and Happy New Years!

[Shapap]

Thanks a ton! I DO notice some fatigue in my strong hand even just after a few rounds. My ball and dummy drills are only sometimes effective in that since I shoot alone I load the mags myself randomizing between live and dummy rounds and just trying to forget the order of them. Sometimes I have someone else at the house load the mags for me before I go to the range, but that is more rare of an occasion.

I do now notice that my eyes pick up and want to focus on the rear white dots quite a bit as I'm trying to align them with the front. I'm getting ready to head to the range right now and give what you said a go. I'll report back once I get home. Thank you very much for your time.

[Lomshek]

Be careful that you're not milking the trigger (pressing/pulling it s-l-o-w-l-y) and anticipating recoil which would make you maybe squeeze your hands just as you expect the shot to break and throw off your aim low and/or left for a righty.

Regardless of your trigger there should not be a noticeable time gap as you work through the trigger pull. Lots of folks with some variation of a DA trigger will do the trigger pull over the course of a second or two in slow motion under the mistaken idea of being able to milk the trigger to just before it breaks then treating it like an SA trigger. If you do this your chance of anticipating the shot is very high.

Other than that find an IDPA or USPSA group to shoot with. Nothing like competition to force you out of slow habits that are holding you back.

[Shapap]

Ok just got back from the range...I put up a few 1" sticker targets and shot from 3 yards.

Things noticed:

I am having a bit of trouble getting my brain to focus on the front sight only as the shot breaks (the rear white dots are distracting me as I'm trying to line up the sights) I will take your advice and black them out.

When I am able to ignore the rear dots, my shots no longer pull left (thank you for that, that was the biggest thing that has been frustrating me). However I am still dipping the muzzle just enough to put my group about 1-2" low, but atleast its centered for the most part now!.

I have trouble even hitting the 1" target at 3yards during slow aimed fire. I am also still getting random fliers in a 5 shot group.

I think I am doing that milking the trigger thing pointed out by Lomshek.

Now heres the kicker, towards the end of the session I decided to shoot a bit faster just for the hell of it. I would draw the pistol from my holster and make sure that my support hand was applying equal (or close to it) pressure with my strong hand and I would fire a round every 1.5-2 seconds (5 round groups still) at the 1" target. I would try to do this as fast as I could just trying to focus on the front sight and grip pressure only, and my group size significantly decreased. I was consistently getting 2-3 shots into the 1" target and the others on the outside would be nearly touching it. I tried this for several groups and it was pretty much the same every attempt. I also did not have any fliers until I started trying to go 'too fast'.

So then I went back to slow aimed fire, just thinking that maybe I warmed up a little...nope all the same problems came back with fliers included. And now that you mention it, I think I am doing the trigger completely wrong in slow fire.

When I am doing my trigger pull for a slow well aimed shot, I take all the slack (the super light part) out of the trigger until I get to the heavy part (where the hammer is all the way back, about the break). Then from there I try to gently squeeze until the shot breaks. When shooting faster, I completely forget about the trigger and have no idea what I'm doing there except trying to squeeze the trigger as fast as possible in one motion. I thought that was a bad thing called 'jerking' the trigger, but I think I need a dictionary on all these differant terms sometimes :)

[Lomshek]

1) When I am doing my trigger pull for a slow well aimed shot, I take all the slack (the super light part) out of the trigger until I get to the heavy part (where the hammer is all the way back, about the break). Then from there I try to gently squeeze until the shot breaks.

2) When shooting faster, I completely forget about the trigger and have no idea what I'm doing there except trying to squeeze the trigger as fast as possible in one motion. I thought that was a bad thing called 'jerking' the trigger, but I think I need a dictionary on all these differant terms sometimes :)

#1 is the definition of milking the trigger. It's possible but very difficult to to do this accurately because you keep thinking "here it comes, here it comes, here it comes".

#2 is a proper DA trigger squeeze. Watch videos of skilled IDPA or USPSA shooters using revolvers. They're working straight through that trigger as fast as they can. There's no slow cautious pull. They practice until they can accurately pull the trigger fast.

The grip is equally important, as Jay pointed out, to holding the gun still enough to not throw the shots.

To help your front sight focus if you are trying to shoot both eyes open (which you should be doing) place a target paster or piece of tape over your non-shooting eye glass lens so you can keep both eyes open without the confusing optical input of two eyes that some folks struggle with initially.

[Shapap]

Thanks!!!! all clear now. I will keep practicing what you and Mr. Cunningham have said, I am getting much better results now. This handgun shooting stuff is VERY addicting....I foresee burning through lots of ammo this year :)

[fixer]

Good thread. I suffer from some of the same issues.

I've diagnosed myself has having a poor support hand grip.

[Shapap]

Yeah, i noticed when doing slow fire my support hand thumb actually bounces off the frame during recoil. I seem to have a really bad habit of over-thinking things and trying to focus on too many things at once as I pull the trigger. When I draw from the holster and fire a shot as fast as possible I seem to grip the pistol alot tighter with both hands with much better results. In slow fire I'm trying to put on a 50/50 grip, but I think I'm squeezing the gun with my shooting hand a bit tighter just as the shot breaks.

I have a few LEO's in the family/friends and they all tell me completely differant things, so it gets rather frustrating. Like for instance half of them will tell me not to lock my elbows, then the other half will tell me to. Some will tell me to roll my shoulders as I extend out (or I think 'press out' is the correct term?), and some will tell me not to roll my shoulders. So obviously by the time I get to the range I start trying everything with no real consistency and it just seems like I end up wasting ammo with no real end result or goal to keep focusing on. I've learned more in a day from the wonderful people in this thread than I have in a year from the local people around here. I now feel like I'm starting to get somewhere.