Hk USP LEM Match Hybrid

[Clobbersaurus]

This has probably been covered here several years ago, but my search skills are weak on this forum. Sorry in advance if I am rehashing old news.

I've been reading a bit about the Hk USP. It seems that the USP LEM Match Hybrid trigger is one of the best overall combinations of ease of use and shootability. According to the information I could find, there is something about the design of the USP in particular that gives you better trigger characteristics with the LEM Match hybrid (lighter and smother, with a shorter reset) than any other Hk series of pistol. Basically you get a light DA/SA style trigger with no need for a decocker or safety. It seems an almost perfect trigger system for a true DA/SA fan.

Here's a video of the trigger system for those that are interested:

https://youtu.be/KbzHPZxLr58

I'm quite interested in giving it a try, but I read something that gave me some pause on the whole idea. There are some reports that the USP, with it's recoil spring system, is quite difficult to shoot decently at speed. I've read that it's tough to get splits under .22, which I can almost get with my 92D.

So how shootable is the LEM hybrid? Is it all it's reported to be? If so, I am a little surprised it's not more popular.

Paging GJM....:D

[JHC]

This is just a test of my memory from following the discussions but here goes:

I thought the odd recoil spring impulses that might interfere with a good shooter at max speed were not really manifest in the USP FS or Compact in 9mm.

They show up in the Expert length and perhaps other models in larger calibers. But even there they don't seem to hamper GJM and Dr. No.

Now let's see what they say.

[Leroy]

My dabble into USP was enjoyable and I don't see myself letting them go. Here is my opinion on the triggers and recoil characteristics.
The light LEM is okay, but I couldn't run it like a SA. It feels like a single action once you take out the slack but I had to treat it like a really short and light double action or I would start putting rounds low. I put the match trigger return spring in for hot moment and pulled it out immediately because the reset force was almost nonexistant. I prefer a strong reset but the standard TRS wrecks the trigger in my opinion so I compromised with the light TRS. After playing with the LEM I determined that it was an incompatible shooting trigger for myself unless it was to be my main gun. I would not be able to bounce in and out of it like I can with striker and DA/SA. I then switched it over to DA/SA with 12 lb hammer spring, light fpb spring, and light trs and could instantly run the shit out of the gun. I don't think the USP gets enough cred for how decent a DA/SA trigger it has. The hammer parts from what I have heard only lighten the SA which I think is light enough already. I don't do overtravel screws on triggers so I didn't bother with the match trigger.
In terms of recoil characteristics I much prefer the compact for higher speed close range work. Cycles flat and normal. That gun can be split sub .2 at 7 yards in a Bill drill while maintaining the A zone. The full size is different beast. When the slide cycles it bottoms out against the recoil assembly and then the barrel and slide move rearward together yet again maybe another 3/16 to 1/4 inch. If you retract the slide like normal and then really pull on it hard you'll see the barrel move rearward yet again. This gives the gun a weird double pulse that when I really try to split it fast the shots start to climb the target. Can't say I have successfully run sustained splits below .2. For myself I prefer the larger grip of the full size and shoot it more accurately but is defenitely slower than the compact. I feel like the fullsize USP system is screaming for a more powerful cartridge. I really intend to pick up a 40 and a 45 to harness the system. I think I may be able run 40 as fast as 9 through this gun.

[Clobbersaurus]

^^ That is a really great post, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I kinda wish I had kept my P2000 to see what I could do with that system. It and a PSP are my only experiences with HK, both were favourable, but with their quirks. I am a much better shooter than I was then so my reference of their performance potential just isn't there.

[ShooterM9]

Reality check: There is no trigger action out there that is going to make you a better shooter if you have not mastered the fundamentals of trigger control. Period. End of story. Once you have done that, you can effectively use any handgun you are using in a SD situation. I know the "industry" wants desperately for people to believe there is in fact some magical/mythical "far better" handgun or trigger style out there, but ... nope. Fundamentals are fundamentals. If you have only shot your handgun on a relaxed square range your odds of surviving a real-world gunfight are lower than guys who train, regularly and hard, in high-stress situations. If you do not have the fundamentals mastered nothing else matters.

[GJM]

I can't think of any HK hammer gun or hammer gun trigger that is optimized for shooting fast, close target, splits. With the Expert 9, I shoot .22-.25 splits to the body. While that is the bad news, the good news is I can shoot splits to the head about as fast. The USP pistols draw well to shot one, too.

The main reason I have USP FS and Expert pistols in 9, is as sub caliber trainers for the USP FS .45. The USP pistols are not competition guns, they are defensive guns, where some disadvantage in pure splitting speed is more than offset in my book, by their accuracy, reliability and durability.

[Clobbersaurus]

I can't think of any HK hammer gun or hammer gun trigger that is optimized for shooting fast, close target, splits. With the Expert 9, I shoot .22-.25 splits to the body. While that is the bad news, the good news is I can shoot splits to the head about as fast. The USP pistols draw well to shot one, too.

The main reason I have USP FS and Expert pistols in 9, is as sub caliber trainers for the USP FS .45. The USP pistols are not competition guns, they are defensive guns, where some disadvantage in pure splitting speed is more than offset in my book, by their accuracy, reliability and durability.

Thank you for the response.

[MSparks909]

I can split .17-.20s regularly with my P30 V3. I had a USP9 briefly and sold it after two range trips...didn't like the grip or recoil impulse. Just felt odd to me.

[LSP552]

Bruce Gray, who shot for HK in the past, once compared the USP recoil to a gymnast on a pogo stick.

[OlongJohnson]

Been googling for awhile without finding the answer.

If I want to go match-LEM hybrid for a USP full-size without the overtravel screw (because eliminating potential failure modes in defensive use), is there any reason to buy the match trigger itself? Is the geometry different? Or just the threaded hole?

[SteveB]

I have a USP9c with the match-hybrid LEM trigger minus the match trigger itself; apparently the match trigger with over travel stop does not fit in the compact. What I ended up with was kind of an enhanced light LEM trigger on the 9c. Comparing it to a USP9 FS with match-hybrid trigger, it was tough to tell the difference. So, while I'm not positive about the specs of the two triggers themselves, I can tell you that the trigger feel is similar.

[JHC]

I have a USP9c with the match-hybrid LEM trigger minus the match trigger itself; apparently the match trigger with over travel stop does not fit in the compact. What I ended up with was kind of an enhanced light LEM trigger on the 9c. Comparing it to a USP9 FS with match-hybrid trigger, it was tough to tell the difference. So, while I'm not positive about the specs of the two triggers themselves, I can tell you that the trigger feel is similar.

Boy that sounds like a nice carry pistol. If I understand the configuration options - this could retain a thumb safety that is only a thumb safety or no?

[GJM]

Boy that sounds like a nice carry pistol. If I understand the configuration options - this could retain a thumb safety that is only a thumb safety or no?

On the USP and USP C, you can have a thumb safety with LEM, if that is what you want.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

On the USP and USP C, you can have a thumb safety with LEM, if that is what you want.

In addition to this, the decocker will not drop the inner hammer. So no need to spend the extra $10 on a safety-only detent plate.

[Leroy]

This thread made me pull my USP pistols out for a range session. Just a quick update on my previous post. These guns are not going to be easy to pick up and just shoot fast splits without maintaining some dryfie and livefire.. I had get some considerable trigger time before I could start pushing fast shots in that sub .3 range. They are flippy compared to say a Glock and the reset is weak so I have to work them a little to get in the groove. Everytime I pick one up I really dig the grip, controls, and the general feel of the gun. Otherwise my first post is still my opinion with some maintained training.

[GJM]

LEM and USP skills are perishable.

[GyroF-16]

LEM and USP skills are perishable.

I second that observation.
I carry one for work, and generally practice weekly. If I miss a session (or more), I can generally see the difference. For me, it requires more practice than other systems, but is well worth it for the extra margin of safety, improved "people management" aspects, and simplicity of use, before, during, and post-event. For those reasons, it's what I carry off-duty as well, by choice. And for all of the above reasons, it's also what I use to compete, when I have the opportunity.

Gyro

[GJM]

Bolke is the only guy I know who gets away with not being monogamous ... on the LEM.

[Dagga Boy]

Bolke is the only guy I know who gets away with not being monogamous ... on the LEM.

It is hard enough carrying a polymer Beretta 9mm everyday. Replacing my bedside HK45 LEM with the Surefire U-Boat with a PX4 would just be too much. I guess I like the Beretta in the daytime, but HK in the bedroom....;-)

[Sigfan26]

It is hard enough carrying a polymer Beretta 9mm everyday. Replacing my bedside HK45 LEM with the Surefire U-Boat with a PX4 would just be too much. I guess I like the Beretta in the daytime, but HK in the bedroom....;-)

I believe you are trying to say: Beretta on the streets, HK in the sheets


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[Dagga Boy]

I believe you are trying to say: Beretta on the streets, HK in the sheets


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Exactly....

[GJM]

So along with shooting my Benelli this afternoon, I needed to check zero on a Glock 22, after finding the front sight was canted to the right slightly and adjusting it. I shot it from 10-80 yards. When I finished, I decided to draw my HK45C with light LEM, that I was wearing, and shoot a few rounds of Super. I kept pressing on the trigger and nothing was happening. Stopped, started pressing again, and finally the shot fired. Almost thought it was broken for a second. Fired a mag of Super, and got back in the groove, but the first few shots were brutal.

[Balisong]

Ok folks,
Sorry for the necro bump, but my Google Fu is failing me here. I'm about to convert my TDA USPc to a match/lem hybrid, just need to order the match hammer spring. I have all the other parts. But I'm just now realizing, I don't actually know what the end result difference is between the hybrid lem and the light lem. It seems to just be the match hammer spring and nickel plated match sear that makes the difference, but what IS the difference? Is the hybrid trigger pull just smoother, or lighter or......?

Feeling a bit silly because this whole time I've been intending to do the hybrid without knowing if maybe just the plain light lem would be adequate for me and sparing me the need for more parts.

Thanks in advance

[Doc_Glock]

LEM and USP skills are perishable.

Quoted due to cold hard truth...

[einherjarvalk]

Ok folks,
Sorry for the necro bump, but my Google Fu is failing me here. I'm about to convert my TDA USPc to a match/lem hybrid, just need to order the match hammer spring. I have all the other parts. But I'm just now realizing, I don't actually know what the end result difference is between the hybrid lem and the light lem. It seems to just be the match hammer spring and nickel plated match sear that makes the difference, but what IS the difference? Is the hybrid trigger pull just smoother, or lighter or......?

Feeling a bit silly because this whole time I've been intending to do the hybrid without knowing if maybe just the plain light lem would be adequate for me and sparing me the need for more parts.

Thanks in advance

Is your USPc's hammer spring blue or gunmetal colored? The "match hammer spring," HK part #215694, in full-size HKs is usually just the standard USPc 10#-11# hammer spring. The blue hammer springs are rated at 12#, but have become the "standard" hammer spring you usually get if you call up HK or Brownells and order a #215694 hammer spring (which happened to me previously). Other places may have the older gunmetal hammer spring - I ordered mine from Top Gun Supply and got one that was the correct color.

That said, in my TDA USP, I didn't notice much difference between the 10#-11# "match" hammer spring and the 12# one. It's maybe a few ounces at most. It might be more dramatic a change in LEM, but if I were you, I'd just install what you have and decide whether or not you think it's worth chasing that extra little bit of break reduction.

[Doc_Glock]

Ok folks,
Sorry for the necro bump, but my Google Fu is failing me here. I'm about to convert my TDA USPc to a match/lem hybrid, just need to order the match hammer spring. I have all the other parts. But I'm just now realizing, I don't actually know what the end result difference is between the hybrid lem and the light lem. It seems to just be the match hammer spring and nickel plated match sear that makes the difference, but what IS the difference? Is the hybrid trigger pull just smoother, or lighter or......?

Feeling a bit silly because this whole time I've been intending to do the hybrid without knowing if maybe just the plain light lem would be adequate for me and sparing me the need for more parts.

Thanks in advance

I don’t think I can tell the difference between the match LEM in the USPc and the Light LEM in the P2000, other than reset length.

You should just do the conversion, then if you don’t care for it swap in the hammer spring as that is super quick and easy.

[Balisong]

Thanks you guys. I think I'll take your advice and just go ahead and convert with the parts I have, which do include the match sear. As Enel mentioned the hammer spring is really easy to change, even for a man of my mechanical ineptitude. So I may put a match hammer spring on my Christmas list and if I get one I'll try it out.

einherjarvalk- my USP compact is a 2015, and has a blue HS, which I understand all current ones do, and those are not the Match HS.

[rayrevolver]

Thanks you guys. I think I'll take your advice and just go ahead and convert with the parts I have, which do include the match sear. As Enel mentioned the hammer spring is really easy to change, even for a man of my mechanical ineptitude. So I may put a match hammer spring on my Christmas list and if I get one I'll try it out.

einherjarvalk- my USP compact is a 2015, and has a blue HS, which I understand all current ones do, and those are not the Match HS.

I will admit the converting a USP to LEM was rough compared to anything with Glocks or ARs. I did buy the pliers designed to help with the TRS install. I can lend em out if you decide to run down this path.

That said, I would recommend reading some of the threads on HKPro that talk about LEM and Hybrid Match LEM. I am glad I did since I learned at some point the Tactical models changed from match springs to more standard springs with the match trigger and hammer.

I cannot remember what I did with certainty. I think I left the match TRS out and installed the heavier "light" TRS from the LEM kit. The scuttlebutt says it helps with a more positive trigger return with a little added pull weight. Regardless, my USP9T with the Hybird Match LEM is a great trigger but not a fast trigger in my hands.

[Balisong]

Thanks rayrevolver. I appreciate the offer, but I did get a pair of those pliers when I bought the other parts. I've got lots of pages bookmarked on hkpro with videos and pics of LEM conversion instructions. As I previously mentioned, I'm awful at mechanical stuff. I've never even detail stripped a glock. But I'm confident that with a lot of time, tears, pain, and 4 letter words I'll get it done.

If I don't post on here anymore it's because my hands are covered in cuts and blood blisters.

[einherjarvalk]

As I previously mentioned, I'm awful at mechanical stuff. I've never even detail stripped a glock.

On one hand, this is gonna be a bit of a chore. Make sure you get great lighting; I bought a little gooseneck LED lamp from IKEA for $12 (https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00385941/) that made what would've otherwise been an impossible task into something that was merely difficult.

On the other, once you've torn down and reassembled a LEM gun correctly, you will never, ever have problems taking a Glock apart. May as well be a preschool toy by comparison.

[Balisong]

Good idea on the little work light. I'm sure that's handy for any work being done on a gun, or even doing a good cleaning. That'll be a worthwhile investment.

[Exiledviking]

Just ordered one. Thank you!
That'll come in very handy.

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