Multiple stabbing on Portland MAX train

[Clusterfrack]

Man ordered Muslim women off train before slashing the throats of passengers who stepped in to help - The Sun
https://apple.news/A0QdlCAwdRSWsOIuQrYxOZg

[LittleLebowski]

I'm betting on a crazy dude doing crazy things that will be spun as the tip of the growing white supremacist movement led by Trump.

[Bummy425]

Fake news? Nothing on CNN or NBC nightly....

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[Malamute]

Made me curious,

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Portland+stabbings&filters=tnTID%3a%22F8DD1A90-9295-4fce-B9F7-390D854EDDA9%22+tnVersion%3a%221965169%22+segment% 3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%2219%22+tnOrd er%3a%22525fdf35-9ca8-4855-9151-50a015d09ee9%22&efirst=17&FORM=HPNN01

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm betting on a crazy dude doing crazy things that will be spun as the tip of the growing white supremacist movement led by Trump.

Well, I don't know about Trump but the White Supremacist part seems hard to dispute.

http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2017/05/27/19041594/suspect-in-portland-hate-crime-murders-is-a-known-white-supremacist

There is a go fund me set up for the victims.

[LittleLebowski]

Well, I don't know about Trump but the White Supremacist part seems hard to dispute.

http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2017/05/27/19041594/suspect-in-portland-hate-crime-murders-is-a-known-white-supremacist

There is a go fund me set up for the victims.

What I was getting was the Narrative that is is endlessly pushed.

[45dotACP]

Sounds like real news to me...CNN, WaPo etc reporting the same thing. Guy screaming racial slurs didn't respond to verbal de-escalation and sliced up a few dudes.

Hate crimes happen folks...a CNA I worked with had to see her father savagely beaten in front of her by a group of guys calling him a "sand nigger" and a "terrorist". He's a Sikh and he was wearing his headdress or whatever they are called. He was in the ICU for a few days.

It's no jump for me to imagine that people can murder for racism. It's done from time to time.

Was the guy unstable? Yeah probably. Well adjusted folk don't kill because of race, religion, sexuality or because someone talked shit about fireclean.

Just too bad nobody had their CCW and capped his ass

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[Lester Polfus]

It is most certainly real news.

The narrative that is most real for me, is that three men got stabbed, two fatally doing something I've done more than a couple times: trying to help a woman that was being verbally harassed by some shit stain on a Portland MAX train.

[TheNewbie]

An evil piece of human garbage. To deny that there are white racists in America is idiotic, to think American is a racist nation is even more foolish.

I hate this for the victims and their families.

[Clusterfrack]

Bad situation--MAX cars are cramped--not a good place to have someone trying to stab you. The three guys were heros for sure for coming to the girls aid. Hard to know if things would have gone better if they were armed. Better ECQC skills needed...

[LittleLebowski]

An evil piece of human garbage. To deny that there are white racists in America is idiotic, to think American is a racist nation is even more foolish.

I hate this for the victims and their families.

Yup. I'm still leaning towards crazy, but have no attachment to my gut feeling. Also, wouldn't the correct word for religious hate be bigotry, not racism?

[BehindBlueI's]

https://www.gofundme.com/tri-met-heroes for the families

https://www.gofundme.com/tri-met-hero-recovery for the survivor

[Bummy425]

Man ordered Muslim women off train before slashing the throats of passengers who stepped in to help - The Sun
https://apple.news/A0QdlCAwdRSWsOIuQrYxOZg
My apologies, you actually reportrd this faster than mainstream media, nice job!

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[ShooterM9]

We continue to have attacks on our Metrolink light rail system in the STL metro area. Local law enforcement is having a hard time coordinating across our crazy patchwork quilt of jurisdictions and the Metro system does not want anyone "policing" the rail. It's a huge mess. Random attacks all times of day and night, in "nice" areas as well as the usual areas of criminal activity in our inner urban areas.

[walker2713]

Just too bad nobody had their CCW and capped his ass

There you go......

[octagon]

I heard on the radio this morning that "authorities have not yet confirmed this was an act of domestic terrorism" I can see it being labeled a hate crime but if they didn't label the Ft Hood shooting or the knife attack,beheading in OK IIRC terrorist incidents but "workplace violence" then this shouldn't be labeled domestic terrorism.

[RJ]

I heard on the radio this morning that "authorities have not yet confirmed this was an act of domestic terrorism" I can see it being labeled a hate crime but if they didn't label the Ft Hood shooting or the knife attack,beheading in OK IIRC terrorist incidents but "workplace violence" then this shouldn't be labeled domestic terrorism.

My guess is this translates to 'Unfortunately we can't find anything in his social media profile to tie him to Trump. :\

But seriously: what an unfortunate thing to have happen. I feel very sorry for the victims and their families.

I hope the asshole who did this rots in jail.

Been thinking lately about what elements of an IFAK I can literally carry every day, like my keys or my phone. Going to review what is in my range bag for a GSW that's applicable to general trauma.

Since bleeding is the common element, maybe a 4" sterile square dressing and a SWAT-T...?


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[GuanoLoco]

Sometimes a little gun violence is exactly what is required to resolve an ugly situation.

[LittleLebowski]

I heard on the radio this morning that "authorities have not yet confirmed this was an act of domestic terrorism" I can see it being labeled a hate crime but if they didn't label the Ft Hood shooting or the knife attack,beheading in OK IIRC terrorist incidents but "workplace violence" then this shouldn't be labeled domestic terrorism.

Not to mention the police murders in Baton Rouge and Dallas.

[Joe in PNG]

Put me in the unsurprised camp. The US does have a population of men who are figuring if they're going to be called racist no matter what they do, they may as well go full bore into white supremacy.

And unbalanced kooks are going to kook- whether For the Purity of the White Race, Against the Oppression of the Black Race, For Islam, For Anarchy, or Because My Dog Told Me.

[BehindBlueI's]

Put me in the unsurprised camp. The US does have a population of men who are figuring if they're going to be called racist no matter what they do, they may as well go full bore into white supremacy.

And unbalanced kooks are going to kook- whether For the Purity of the White Race, Against the Oppression of the Black Race, For Islam, For Anarchy, or Because My Dog Told Me.

My dog told me to reply angrily to this post, but he can't even read, so what does he know?

[Tamara]

Getting my chuckles watching the people on my social media feeds decry this guy as a loner, crazy, deranged, non-representative, whatever...when if he'd had slightly swarthy skin and an even vaguely Levantine name, they'd have mocked any reporter who said the same things about him.

Police up your own whackos, people. You know, like you keep telling others to do?

[Nephrology]

One of the deceased went to the same very small college I attended. I actually recall meeting him many years ago when I went back to visit. Seemed like a very nice guy.

Terrible. What an awful way to die. RIP.


Getting my chuckles watching the people on my social media feeds decry this guy as a loner, crazy, deranged, non-representative, whatever...when if he'd had slightly swarthy skin and an even vaguely Levantine name, they'd have mocked any reporter who said the same things about him.

Police up your own whackos, people. You know, like you keep telling others to do?

Amen

[blues]

Racists and supremacists of any stripe are vermin and a blight on humanity. There are plenty of valid reasons worth hating people for.

Accident of birth and nationality isn't one of them, imho.

[Totem Polar]

Police up your own whackos, people. You know, like you keep telling others to do?

Whenever law-abiding, self-responsible, community-minded self defense enthusiasts shit the bed, I'm on it. ;)

This does remind me of a story, since I briefly went to school in North Idaho, back before the lawsuits bankrupted Butler and the Aryans. So, the "tactical pistol" guys of the time and place were centered around "paladin" matches, and bowling pin shoots. A couple of Saturdays a month, the local club--spearheaded and energized by Rob Leahy, of Simply Rugged Holster fame, would organize some sort of pistol match along those lines and dozens and dozens of people would come out to shoot. I was friends with Rob, and I was always willing to pitch in and do what I could to help out.

One fine Saturday afternoon, a couple of young college-age guys show up for the match sporting their Aryan Nation colors. I'm immediately pulled aside by a professor friend of mine (jewish) who is obviously not pleased, commenting that guys like that were the whole reason he got into shooting and went to LFI in the first place. I told him we'd get on it, and I went over to Rob and gave him the scoop. Rob didn't miss a beat, he just picked up a clipboard, flipped the paper over and hastily scrawled a number list on it--putting a few of our names on the list to start, and walked straight over to the guys, clipboard in hand.

It wasn't long before they were gone, and Rob was back. "What did you tell them?" I asked. "Nothing. I welcomed them to the match and passed them the clipboard, telling them that we were taking sign ups for the club yarmulke order; only 20 bucks, and they'd be in..."

[Peally]

Police up your own whackos, people. You know, like you keep telling others to do?

Thankfully at least folks here are colorblind and would have dropped the fucker regardless. Shame no one on that train did to save some folks.

[BehindBlueI's]

https://images.gofundme.com/nmWwJulP1hMsuQscD1VEedYKwxg=/fit-in/1534x0/https://d2kw0licpa1moo.cloudfront.net/20703980_1496015992.5835_updates.png

Here's the survivor recovering. Who gives a shit about the dickhead criminal?

[Chance]

What these guys did took courage, and I respect that. I just can't help thinking that this is an example of why relying on your social contract to keep you safe doesn't work.

The purest of intentions created murder victims. The only thing that's guaranteed to solve violence is greater, more effective violence.

People'd do well to accept that.

[Drang]

Here's the survivor recovering. Who gives a shit about the dickhead criminal?

I could not care less about a dickhead criminal.
I care about the victims, and also about people who claim that said dickhead criminal is somehow related to me, and an indication of what I believe and how I will act.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/muslims-thank-community-for-support-after-fatal-stabbing/

[ReverendMeat]

Fucking piece of shit.


This makes me really sad.

[Tamara]

I wonder where the stabber got radicalized?

[BaiHu]

I wonder where the stabber got radicalized?
From the local Bed Bath & Beyond. In the cutlery section.

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[Drang]

I wonder where the stabber got radicalized?

Seeing reports he was a Bernie Bro*...?

ETA: Jill Stein weighs in on Portland stabbing in Trump’s America; Doesn’t mention attacker was a supporter – twitchy.com (http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/05/27/jill-stein-weighs-in-on-portland-stabbing-in-trumps-america-doesnt-mention-attacker-was-a-supporter/)
16989



*Not that that would be a surprise in Portland**.
**Or Seattle.

[Tamara]

Seeing reports he was a Bernie Bro*...?



*Not that that would be a surprise in Portland**.
**Or Seattle.

He was super Free Speech-y (https://twitter.com/itsmikebivins/status/858400860325281792), so obviously he must have been on the other guys' team. You know how them Bernie Progressives are so hateful of the foreigners, after all.

(I mean, there are people in my social media feed right now who are lionizing crazy Portland dude, and claiming that he was just following in the spirit of...and I am not making this up..."St. Breivik".)

[Drang]

He was super Free Speech-y (https://twitter.com/itsmikebivins/status/858400860325281792), so obviously he must have been on the other guys' team. You know how them Bernie Progressives are so hateful of the foreigners, after all.

Looks like your quote went up even as I was posting my edit, with (admittedly partisan) supporting links.

He was a nutjob; the fact that he was (apparently) a Bernie Sanders/Jill Stein supporting Islamophobic nutjob is hardly cause for celebration, but I fail to see why I should take responsibility for a Bernie Bro Islamophobe. (I acknowledge that the facespace and twitter posts indicating Bernie-Bro-ness and related tendencies might be fakes, but I doubt it.)

Unless you can prove that he was a Ted Cruz supporting libertarian MI Geek from Detroit, I find it difficult to identify or claim much in the way of kinship with him.

[Tamara]

I fail to see why I should take responsibility...

I just used a general "you" in a forum post. You can pull that shoe on as far as you think it fits. (Alternatively, "The hit dog yelps." ;) )

[Drang]

I just used a general "you" in a forum post. You can pull that shoe on as far as you think it fits. (Alternatively, "The hit dog yelps." ;) )

I had a really great riposte involving being a middle aged Cis gender male veteran from the rust belt, #I'mAVictimToo, and decided that engaging in a battle of snark with Tamara is probably right up there with land war in Asia and wagers with Sicilians with death on the line...

[idahojess]

I wonder where the stabber got radicalized?

I think he has been in prison multiple times on several violent felonies. He also was shot by the police about 15 years ago:


He has a criminal history, including felony robbery, kidnapping and weapon convictions, records show. When he was 20 years old, he was shot in the face by Portland police after he robbed a convenience store.

In October 2011, Christian was convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm in federal court and sentenced to time served, plus three years of supervised release.



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/05/portland_suspect_in_2_slayings.html

[HCountyGuy]

This guy shouldn't have been free to walk around, obviously belonged locked up somewhere.

[BaiHu]

I think he has been in prison multiple times on several violent felonies. He also was shot by the police about 15 years ago:


He has a criminal history, including felony robbery, kidnapping and weapon convictions, records show. When he was 20 years old, he was shot in the face by Portland police after he robbed a convenience store.

In October 2011, Christian was convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm in federal court and sentenced to time served, plus three years of supervised release.



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/05/portland_suspect_in_2_slayings.html


This guy shouldn't have been free to walk around, obviously belonged locked up somewhere.
What the eff does a guy need to do in Portland to spend 20 to life in prison?

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[Nephrology]

(I mean, there are people in my social media feed right now who are lionizing crazy Portland dude, and claiming that he was just following in the spirit of...and I am not making this up..."St. Breivik".)

This is a great opportunity to remove these people from your social media feed and, comcomitantly, your life. That's straight up neo-Nazism which I personally have vanishingly little tolerance for.

[octagon]

What the eff does a guy need to do in Portland to spend 20 to life in prison?

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Kill 2 people while committing a hate crime?

Seriously I think a hate crime in the known liberal region may finally do the job and get him more time than the previous crimes since those may have been just "the system failing him" as the quoted post hinted to. Real or not that general thinking is too common in some areas.

[blues]

What the eff does a guy need to do in Portland to spend 20 to life in prison?

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You can pretty much ask that question anywhere in the country. Even in areas (at least formerly) known for being tough on crime and prosecution, the number of miscreants on the street is pretty astounding. And this despite the U.S. having the reputation of over-incarcerating its citizenry.

Must be something in the water.

Tam made an interesting comment "wondering where he was radicalized" and I thought about this last night and this morning because that offhand remark is really quite telling in many ways.

For those with a certain bent or mindset, or bent mindset if you will, it is relatively easy to connect the dots from frustration to anger to lashing out.

Think for a moment about the things that had lots of relatively sane, reasonable and thoughtful folks voting for Trump because the alternative seemed even worse. Think about some of the lies being perpetrated by so-called community leaders and soldiers for social justice such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the fringe elements, (to be charitable), of the BLM movement in how they characterized, demonized and marginalized masses of folks of a differing skin tone to achieve and accomplish their ends. The truth was a victim in much or most of their invective.

(I use those individuals and group as an example because they offended my sense of truth and justice most recently. White supremacist, racist, nationalist groups, as well as similar Muslim groups could also be used for the illustration. Hell, even commentators on certain news outlets were a step short of calling for counter-insurrection.)

I clearly remember how angry this political rhetoric and the inciting of violence made me and how I'd walk around for days on end deeply disturbed by what I saw happening across my country. A country I love and have dedicated most of my adult life to serving.

Now think of the response to the same bombardment by a mind somewhat less sound, less capable of reining in an emotional response, more inclined to take marching orders from leaders or speakers who have decided to dehumanize and make villains and targets of the opposition. What you get is a dangerous and potentially lethal cocktail of seething emotions blindly acted out upon despite an actual, legitimate target not being in focus.

No side can claim to be free of this fringe element and only the center can do its best to hold the line and try to keep things from spiraling out of control. The answer is clearly not a simple one. Things need to be addressed from nearly every angle of our daily lives...from child rearing and education to our cultural and government institutions.

Just a few thoughts. Nothing earth shattering, but some of what has been on my mind in the wake of all these tragedies.

Much of it because of the simple question..."I wonder where he was radicalized?"

[BaiHu]

You can pretty much ask that question anywhere in the country. Even in areas (at least formerly) known for being tough on crime and prosecution, the number of miscreants on the street is pretty astounding. And this despite the U.S. having the reputation of over-incarcerating its citizenry.

Must be something in the water.

Tam made an interesting comment "wondering where he was radicalized" and I thought about this last night and this morning because that offhand remark is really quite telling in many ways.

For those with a certain bent or mindset, or bent mindset if you will, it is relatively easy to connect the dots from frustration to anger to lashing out.

Think for a moment about the things that had lots of relatively sane, reasonable and thoughtful folks voting for Trump because the alternative seemed even worse. Think about some of the lies being perpetrated by so-called community leaders and soldiers for social justice such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the fringe elements, (to be charitable), of the BLM movement in how they characterized, demonized and marginalized masses of folks of a differing skin tone to achieve and accomplish their ends. The truth was a victim in much or most of their invective.

(I use those individuals and group as an example because they offended my sense of truth and justice most recently. White supremacist, racist, nationalist groups, as well as similar Muslim groups could also be used for the illustration. Hell, even commentators on certain news outlets were a step short of calling for counter-insurrection.)

I clearly remember how angry this political rhetoric and the inciting of violence made me and how I'd walk around for days on end deeply disturbed by what I saw happening across my country. A country I love and have dedicated most of my adult life to serving.

Now think of the response to the same bombardment by a mind somewhat less sound, less capable of reining in an emotional response, more inclined to take marching orders from leaders or speakers who have decided to dehumanize and make villains and targets of the opposition. What you get is a dangerous and potentially lethal cocktail of seething emotions blindly acted out upon despite an actual, legitimate target not being in focus.

No side can claim to be free of this fringe element and only the center can do its best to hold the line and try to keep things from spiraling out of control. The answer is clearly not a simple one. Things need to be addressed from nearly every angle of our daily lives...from child rearing and education to our cultural and government institutions.

Just a few thoughts. Nothing earth shattering, but some of what has been on my mind in the wake of all these tragedies.

Much of it because of the simple question..."I wonder where he was radicalized?"
Making a new thread as not to derail. I'll respond later, but the title will be enough to create "kindling".

ETA: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=26220

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[OlongJohnson]

(I mean, there are people in my social media feed right now who are lionizing crazy Portland dude, and claiming that he was just following in the spirit of...and I am not making this up..."St. Breivik".)

Damn.

I thought that asshole was only good to illustrate that extreme restrictions on firearms ownership won't stop crazy.

FWIW, Oregon's history is arguably the most overtly racist of anywhere in America outside the South. Cultural roots run deep.

[Nephrology]

Damn.

FWIW, Oregon's history is arguably the most overtly racist of anywhere in America outside the South. Cultural roots run deep.

Yes. Let's not forget that Tom Metzger (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger) inspired two skinheads to brutally murder a foreign student (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulugeta_Seraw) in Portland, of all places.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I know from personal experience when I lived there till 1994, that Oregon has a solid racist, neonazi, anti-Semitic subclass. Folks think that Portland was typical of the state. It was and is not. Even in Portland, racist and violent incidents were not uncommon.

[blues]

Damn.

FWIW, Oregon's history is arguably the most overtly racist of anywhere in America outside the South. Cultural roots run deep.

Been to Boston lately? Don't be fooled into thinking that racist thinking is particularly rooted in particular areas. It runs deep. Period.

[OlongJohnson]

When Oregon was admitted to the United States in 1859, it was the only state whose state constitution explicitly forbade black people from living, working or owning property within its borders. Until 1926, it was illegal for black people to even move into the state. (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/vanport-oregon-how-countrys-largest-housing-project-vanished-day-180954040/)

[idahojess]

Kill 2 people while committing a hate crime?

Seriously I think a hate crime in the known liberal region may finally do the job and get him more time than the previous crimes since those may have been just "the system failing him" as the quoted post hinted to.

Just to be clear, I don't think the system failed him . I think the system failed us, and particularly, the people he killed. Not trying to be argumentative, but I wanted to make sure there was no confusion at what I was hinting at.

[octagon]

Just to be clear, I don't think the system failed him . I think the system failed us, and particularly, the people he killed. Not trying to be argumentative, but I wanted to make sure there was no confusion at what I was hinting at.

I put it in quotes so that anyone reading it would realize it was not MY words but the words of those that believe "the system failed him"

[11B10]

To everyone who believes in our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and the American way of life, please find and read a book I just finished reading (would you believe at one sitting?): "Defeating Jihad," by Dr. Sebastian Gorka. The copy I read was in my local public library, was 154 pages without the appendices, so it'll be easy to find and read. To say this book is timely would be a gross understatement as it came out last year! Dr. Gorka had me before I finished the prologue, which, in this case, is required reading, along with the introduction. You must read both. He also provides several tremendous websites and books to further your education in what HAS to be (at least it SHOULD BE) the most critical, vital area of interest for any patriot, any freedom loving American. Even if you're not a big reader, or, you read one book a year, make THIS book - THAT book for the year, for you. It's THAT important.

[blues]

To everyone who believes in our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and the American way of life, please find and read a book I just finished reading (would you believe at one sitting?): "Defeating Jihad," by Dr. Sebastian Gorka. The copy I read was in my local public library, so it'll be easy to find. To say this book is timely would be a gross understatement as it came out last year! Dr. Gorka had me before I finished the prologue, which, in this case, is required reading, along with the introduction. Please take the time to read both.

Dr. Gorka does not appear to be free of controversy (http://www.newsweek.com/senators-question-trump-adviser-gorka-ties-nazi-linked-group-570453).

I don't have any facts to offer pro or con what is reported and folks can make up their own minds. I will say that I used to enjoy some of his contributions when he'd be a guest on Fox News shows. That said, if the information reported is true, I'd have a less sanguine view of his politics.

[Soggy]

Believe it or not you are legally allowed to be an asshole, even to minorities*. "Hate Speech" is just speech, not a crime. Speculation alert: If the three solid citizens threatened or went hands on first to get this particular asshole to STFU I suspect said asshole will claim self defense.

(*Please don't construe this statement of fact as an endorsement to be an asshole to anybody).

[11B10]

Dr. Gorka does not appear to be free of controversy (http://www.newsweek.com/senators-question-trump-adviser-gorka-ties-nazi-linked-group-570453).

I don't have any facts to offer pro or con what is reported and folks can make up their own minds. I will say that I used to enjoy some of his contributions when he'd be a guest on Fox News shows. That said, if the information reported is true, I'd have a less sanguine view of his politics.

I'm not sure how you read my post while I was still editing it (not real pc savvy). Whatever else you uncover, you should still read it. I-M-HO.

[Soggy]

I'm leaning classic MSM/progressive smear job: https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/04/04/anti-semitism-at-the-jewish-forward/

Having said that, I'm pretty sure there were no islamic terrorists in that rail car, so not entirely sure of the relevance of Dr. Gorka, even if islamic terrorism is significant issue in its own right.

[Chance]

I wonder where the stabber got radicalized?

It's genuinely sad this is as funny as it is.


To everyone who believes in our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and the American way of life, please find and read a book I just finished reading (would you believe at one sitting?): "Defeating Jihad," by Dr. Sebastian Gorka.

Not familiar with that gentleman. When it comes to radical Islam, the book I point people to is Enhanced Interrogation (https://www.amazon.com/Enhanced-Interrogation-Motives-Islamic-Terrorists-ebook/dp/B01AES52NC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496113726&sr=8-1&keywords=enhanced+interrogation), written by one of the guys that ran the EI program before it was shut down. Only pieces of the book discuss the ideology of extremism, but a lot of things fell into place when it did.


Just to be clear, I don't think the system failed him . I think the system failed us, and particularly, the people he killed.

"The System," as it were, failed everyone. "The System" is filled with noble, yet error-prone people, and it can't save everyone. My step-sister's ex-husband killed himself this week. Dude was seeing a counselor, a psychiatrist, and attending AA meetings.

"The System" failed the guy, even after he had given it an opportunity to work at every level. Some people can't be, or won't allow themselves to be, helped. I don't​ consider that an indictment of "The System," it's just a fact of life.

[BehindBlueI's]

Believe it or not you are legally allowed to be an asshole, even to minorities*. "Hate Speech" is just speech, not a crime. Speculation alert: If the three solid citizens threatened or went hands on first to get this particular asshole to STFU I suspect said asshole will claim self defense.

(*Please don't construe this statement of fact as an endorsement to be an asshole to anybody).


It's legal to be an asshole. It's not legal to be disorderly (which at least in my state would include making unreasonable noise after being asked to stop, fighting, or tumultuous behavior. It's also not legal to intimidate someone, in my state a threat for a prior lawful act or a threat intended to force someone to do something against their will is Intimidation.

Additionally, "any person" may make an arrest for any felony, or a misdemeanor that involves an ongoing breach of the peace and the arrest is necessary to stop the continuation of the breach of the peace, and deliver that person to a sworn law enforcement officer.

So "Hate speech" could very well be a crime, content and context dependent, and one that your fellow citizen can arrest you for.

[Tamara]

It's legal to be an asshole. It's not legal to be disorderly (which at least in my state would include making unreasonable noise after being asked to stop, fighting, or tumultuous behavior. It's also not legal to intimidate someone, in my state a threat for a prior lawful act or a threat intended to force someone to do something against their will is Intimidation.

Additionally, "any person" may make an arrest for any felony, or a misdemeanor that involves an ongoing breach of the peace and the arrest is necessary to stop the continuation of the breach of the peace, and deliver that person to a sworn law enforcement officer.

So "Hate speech" could very well be a crime, content and context dependent, and one that your fellow citizen can arrest you for.

You with your actual law and logic and stuff!

[critter]

It's legal to be an asshole. It's not legal to be disorderly (which at least in my state would include making unreasonable noise after being asked to stop, fighting, or tumultuous behavior. It's also not legal to intimidate someone, in my state a threat for a prior lawful act or a threat intended to force someone to do something against their will is Intimidation.

Additionally, "any person" may make an arrest for any felony, or a misdemeanor that involves an ongoing breach of the peace and the arrest is necessary to stop the continuation of the breach of the peace, and deliver that person to a sworn law enforcement officer.

So "Hate speech" could very well be a crime, content and context dependent, and one that your fellow citizen can arrest you for.

Isn't a threat different from hate speech? Threats have been criminal for as long as I can remember, at least here. Hate speech is a relatively new addition. I don't understand "a threat for a prior lawful act" - does that mean a threat in response to someone conducting lawful act? Could you please elaborate on that?

lastly, in a citizen's arrest scenario, to what extent, if any, may a citizen be permitted to forcibly detain the one being arrested? Logically, holding this knife wielding nut at gun point (after his having been disarmed) should be permissible, but is it? Shooting him should he attempt to flee, flee without imminent threat of grave danger that is, would almost certainly lead to criminal charges.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you scream and yell at children at a public place and tell them to leave the country, that goes beyond being an asshole. Trying to cover that with some sophistry about being an asshole even to minorities is ridiculous. Not a lawyer or officer but it would seem that such actions are intended to intimidate the children in a manner to deny them safe access to a public place. Trying to legalize this asshole's actions is pathetic.

[BehindBlueI's]

Isn't a threat different from hate speech? Threats have been criminal for as long as I can remember, at least here. Hate speech is a relatively new addition.


So "Hate speech" could very well be a crime, content and context dependent...


I don't understand "a threat for a prior lawful act" - does that mean a threat in response to someone conducting lawful act? Could you please elaborate on that?

It means if I threaten you because you are doing something illegal, it's not Intimidation. "Stop stealing out of my vending machine, or next time I catch you I'll hit you with a stick" isn't Intimidation because stealing isn't a lawful act. If I threaten you for calling 911, sitting in my favorite booth at the restaurant, or wearing a wig, then it's Intimidation as any of those things are allowed by law.

[critter]

If you scream and yell at children at a public place and tell them to leave the country, that goes beyond being an asshole. Trying to cover that with some sophistry about being an asshole even to minorities is ridiculous. Not a lawyer or officer but it would seem that such actions are intended to intimidate the children in a manner to deny them safe access to a public place. Trying to legalize this asshole's actions is pathetic.

To me it's pretty logical and deceptively simple, perhaps too simple. I do realize that logic and the law often don't mesh. We have thousands upon thousands of ridiculous, complicated laws which should be negated and erased. "hate this or that" is absolutely one of them.

If you scream publicly *at* someone telling him/her to leave the country, you are infringing upon that individual's rights. If you stand in public and scream stupid shit *about* a group -- any group -- it's protected speech, unless you are specifically threatening in some way (not that some fee fees get hurt and they feeeeeeeeel threatened, but, actually contextually threatening to do harm -- no one is responsible for someone else's feeling offended or any feelings at all save their own).


The recent example of BLM comes to mind. For them to scream about how cops are devils (or whatever) is protected speech. For them to call for the assassination of police is not -- inciting violence.

For Musims to gather and scream that they are being treated unfairly - absolutely protected. To scream for death to the west and for Sharia -- inciting sedition/treason.

Gathering in groups to shout down speakers at universities? or blocking roads? not protected because it is infringing upon the rights of others to speak or move about freely.

as an aside-
Click-it or ticket? government infringing upon the right of an individual to be an blithering idiot. This (non) action doesn't affect, harm, infringe upon another. Same with motorcycle helmet laws.

[critter]

It means if I threaten you because you are doing something illegal, it's not Intimidation. "Stop stealing out of my vending machine, or next time I catch you I'll hit you with a stick" isn't Intimidation because stealing isn't a lawful act. If I threaten you for calling 911, sitting in my favorite booth at the restaurant, or wearing a wig, then it's Intimidation as any of those things are allowed by law.

Ahhh, I get it now. Perfect explanation. Thank you.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

For Musims to gather and scream that they are being treated unfairly - absolutely protected. To scream for death to the west and for Sharia -- inciting sedition/treason

You have no idea what the latter part of your post actually means. Demonstrating to say that you want Sharia law in the USA is has absolutely protected as past groups demanding that their religions be officially recognized by the state. It would quite constitutional to have an Amendment to void the religious protections of the 1st Amend. and make the country Christian by official proclamation or Islamic. Plenty of politicians get up there and say this is a Christian country. Is that sedition/treason?

In the case under debate, we are talking about screaming at children. So you agree that the murderer had no right to scream at children at on a train. He could legally protest and demanding that they be deported at public venue in a manner that did not disrupt the traffic. We have a wonderful history of doing this to minority groups and going beyond that. Recall that the Sedition acts were used to imprison hundreds of folks in WWI who protested our involvement in that stupid war.

I see a difference between hate speech and hate crimes. They are being confounded in some discussions. The latter is an added motivational nuance in a criminal charge for some action. We evaluate motivation in criminal actions all the time. The former is protected if not done in manner that is threatening or disruptive.

[critter]

Plenty of politicians get up there and say this is a Christian country. Is that sedition/treason?



They're not calling for the action of instituting biblical law to supersede the constitution, it's merely a patently erroneous statement.

I'm not so sure that Bill of Rights may be negated. They are to guarantee what is innate to every individual, not permission granted from government. At any rate, that would most certainly create revolution.


Protesting war, government actions are indeed protected. Under a Declaration of War by congress (of which we have not been since WWII) the situation may change somewhat and other powers are granted, which could include all kinds of invasive procedure - of which I am vehemently opposed. Lincoln did all kinds of crazy unconstitutional stuff during the Civil war.

Freedom always rests upon a slippery slope. Government is always creeping tyrannical (generally using euphemistic language, e.g., Patriot Act). It's our responsibility to protect liberty and to vehemently fight the creep (or the creeps in government).

[Kukuforguns]

I see a difference between hate speech and hate crimes. They are being confounded in some discussions. The latter is an added motivational nuance in a criminal charge for some action. We evaluate motivation in criminal actions all the time. The former is protected if not done in manner that is threatening or disruptive.

This incident and the related discussion has me questioning my prior positions on the illegality of terrorism and hate crimes and the similarity between both.

I've previously thought that it was silly/improper to create a separate crime for hate crimes. If the underlying action is illegal (battery/murder/etc.), why create an additional offense (or enhanced punishment) if the crime was motivated by racism/bigotry/etc.? Why is killing a Christian worse/better than killing a Muslim/Atheist? Isn't the intent to kill the real crime? It made no sense to me.

With respect to terrorism, I felt it was somewhat like pornography in that it's hard to define, but "you know it when you see it." I've generally been comfortable with terrorism as a separate crime while at the same time being intensely unsatisfied by the vague definitions and the rather arbitrary way the government can label an act terrorism.

Now, I can begin to see a rationale for hate crimes. If the purpose of attacking a victim of a particular demographic is to inflict fear on other people of a similar demographic, isn't this just terrorism writ small? Why does society not apply terrorism laws to hate crimes?

And, is it really necessary to have a separate offense (or sentencing enhancement) for terrorism? If you intentionally drive over 15 innocent victims without justification, should society kill you more deader depending on your motives?

Just maundering.

[Kukuforguns]

lastly, in a citizen's arrest scenario, to what extent, if any, may a citizen be permitted to forcibly detain the one being arrested? Logically, holding this knife wielding nut at gun point (after his having been disarmed) should be permissible, but is it? Shooting him should he attempt to flee, flee without imminent threat of grave danger that is, would almost certainly lead to criminal charges.
The law regarding citizens arrest is jurisdiction specific. What works for me almost certainly won't work for you.

[BehindBlueI's]

They're not calling for the action of instituting biblical law to supersede the constitution...

Certainly debatable in some cases.

[BehindBlueI's]

lastly, in a citizen's arrest scenario, to what extent, if any, may a citizen be permitted to forcibly detain the one being arrested? Logically, holding this knife wielding nut at gun point (after his having been disarmed) should be permissible, but is it? Shooting him should he attempt to flee, flee without imminent threat of grave danger that is, would almost certainly lead to criminal charges.

Sorry, didn't notice this the first time.


IC 35-41-3-3
Use of force relating to arrest or escape
Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is
justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an
arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person
committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless
that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.


(Chapter 2 is IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property)

So, in Indiana a non-LEO can't use lethal force to effect an arrest only, but can for protection of self or third parties.

[critter]

Certainly debatable in some cases.

Be ever vigilant... against the encroachment of any religion into government policy or law.

"based on Christian principles" is simply not correct, unless the principles happen to be both common and Christian. In fact, a basis in Christianity with the biblical narrative of Jesus as example would place us in a ginormous commune.

It's derived from Common Law.

As a staunch Jeffersonian Constitutionalist, the most productive thing I can do is lend his comments on the religion question.



"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802?


Jefferson scratched out anything in the Bible with which he disagreed, and kept that with which he did -- resulting in the Jefferson or Jeffersonian Bible.

[TGS]

Lastly, in a citizen's arrest scenario, to what extent, if any, may a citizen be permitted to forcibly detain the one being arrested? Logically, holding this knife wielding nut at gun point (after his having been disarmed) should be permissible, but is it? Shooting him should he attempt to flee, flee without imminent threat of grave danger that is, would almost certainly lead to criminal charges.

Right. Garner v TN established that you cannot use lethal force simply to effect an arrest. As you noted, you must be able to articulate that there is an imminent threat (imminent not being the same word as immediate).

It doesn't matter what state you're in, whether you're LEO or not....this comes from the US Constitution.

Change the scenario and you change the answer. If he was just disarmed but you believe he's intent on murdering someone specific, takes off running and you believe he still has the means/will have the means to commit that murder, and you feel that he will be able to avoid capture prior to committing that murder, then you could be justified in shooting him (under the US Constitution, at least). It's a big "what-if" game that you can go round'n'round about for days, so the best you can do is have a solid understanding on the laws guiding use of force.

[Buckshot]

My prayers for the fallen. As someone who spent YEARS riding the MAX at all hours of the day & night in violation of the law in relationship to concealed carry, I feel somewhat vindicated for "cheating". If anyone bothered to mention that the MAX system is a gun free zone,i missed it.

[Caballoflaco]

Certainly debatable in some cases.


Indeed; one of my favorite local examples: Judge Roy Moore

Wiki page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore

[BehindBlueI's]

Right. Garner v TN established that you cannot use lethal force simply to effect an arrest. As you noted, you must be able to articulate that there is an imminent threat (imminent not being the same word as immediate).

That's the difference beween LE and non-LE in Indiana.

TN v Garner:


The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

Indiana Code is explicit that non-LEO can not use deadly force to affect an arrest and that LEO can (within the confines of Garner). Non-LEO, at least in my state, are more constrained than Garner would otherwise allow. Emphasis added to relevant code:

Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is
justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an
arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person
committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless
that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.
(b) A law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable
force if the officer reasonably believes that the force is necessary to
Indiana Code 2016
effect a lawful arrest. However, an officer is justified in using deadly
force only if the officer:
(1) has probable cause to believe that that deadly force is
necessary:
(A) to prevent the commission of a forcible felony; or
(B) to effect an arrest of a person who the officer has
probable cause to believe poses a threat of serious bodily
injury to the officer or a third person; and
(2) has given a warning, if feasible, to the person against whom
the deadly force is to be used.
(c) A law enforcement officer making an arrest under an invalid
warrant is justified in using force as if the warrant was valid, unless
the officer knows that the warrant is invalid.
(d) A law enforcement officer who has an arrested person in
custody is justified in using the same force to prevent the escape of
the arrested person from custody that the officer would be justified
in using if the officer was arresting that person. However, an officer
is justified in using deadly force only if the officer:
(1) has probable cause to believe that deadly force is necessary
to prevent the escape from custody of a person who the officer
has probable cause to believe poses a threat of serious bodily
injury to the officer or a third person; and
(2) has given a warning, if feasible, to the person against whom
the deadly force is to be used.
(e) A guard or other official in a penal facility or a law
enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force, including
deadly force, if the officer has probable cause to believe that the
force is necessary to prevent the escape of a person who is detained
in the penal facility.
(f) Notwithstanding subsection (b), (d), or (e), a law enforcement
officer who is a defendant in a criminal prosecution has the same
right as a person who is not a law enforcement officer to assert
self-defense under IC 35-41-3-2.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L

[ReverendMeat]

My prayers for the fallen. As someone who spent YEARS riding the MAX at all hours of the day & night in violation of the law in relationship to concealed carry, I feel somewhat vindicated for "cheating". If anyone bothered to mention that the MAX system is a gun free zone,i missed it.

Public transportation is not off-limits per ORS. I also checked Trimet's website and it doesn't say anything about guns, hell I saw a guy get off the 33 with a rifle a couple years back.

[Mjolnir]

I'm betting on a crazy dude doing crazy things that will be spun as the tip of the growing white supremacist movement led by Trump.

I read he was an Antifa member.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Drang]

I read he was an Antifa member.
Maybe. Established that he was a Bernie Sanders/Jill Stein supporter. A loon, certainly. Caught a snippet from his first appearance in court, claimed to be a patriot.


ETA: Portland Stabbing Suspect Yells 'Free Speech or Die' in Court Appearance - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/portland-stabbing-suspect-yells-free-speech-or-die-first-court-n766416)

"You call it terrorism, I call it patriotism, you hear me? Die," Christian said before being led out of court.

Christian also yelled "death to the enemies of America" and "death to antifa." Antifa is a name by which groups calling themselves "anti-fascist" are known.

Related: Portland Murder Suspect Appears Unlinked to Northwest's Racist Groups (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/portland-murder-suspect-appears-unlinked-northwest-s-racist-groups-n765681)

Some of his rants appear to contradict his past support for Sanders and Stein. Either he has had a change of heart, or his current public pronouncements are a facade.

[Soggy]

Sorry, didn't notice this the first time.



(Chapter 2 is IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property)

So, in Indiana a non-LEO can't use lethal force to effect an arrest only, but can for protection of self or third parties.

Thank you for the additional information BBI. Does that change your analysis of my initial post?

This guy does have a history of being provocative: http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/05/portland-two-good-samaritans-who-came-to-aid-of-muslim-woman-being-attacked-stabbed-to-death/

My concern is that he may have been well aware how far he could go to push peoples buttons, but stay on the right side of the law. If he was acting within the law, or at least not committing a felony, what then?

To repeat: I'm just speculating. I still haven't found a detailed description of what happened / who said what to who and when. If anyone has please share the link.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thank you for the additional information BBI. Does that change your analysis of my initial post?


No. Why would it? None of the victims used deadly force to effect an arrest. As far as we know, none of the victims used any force at all, nor did they attempt to arrest the asshole.

Even if he claims self defense, the force used in self defense must be reasonable. Good luck speculating a situation where you've precipitated a fight with your own actions and slashing the throats of three people is then a reasonable level of force to extricate yourself from that situation.

[Soggy]

No. Why would it? None of the victims used deadly force to effect an arrest. As far as we know, none of the victims used any force at all, nor did they attempt to arrest the asshole.

Even if he claims self defense, the force used in self defense must be reasonable. Good luck speculating a situation where you've precipitated a fight with your own actions and slashing the throats of three people is then a reasonable level of force to extricate yourself from that situation.

Here is what you said in response to my initial post:
"So "Hate speech" could very well be a crime, content and context dependent, and one that your fellow citizen can arrest you for."

If the guy limited himself to being a dick, but did not directly threaten anybody (which goes beyond what is commonly understood as hate speech), is that still the case?

[Zincwarrior]

Maybe. Established that he was a Bernie Sanders/Jill Stein supporter. A loon, certainly. Caught a snippet from his first appearance in court, claimed to be a patriot.


ETA: Portland Stabbing Suspect Yells 'Free Speech or Die' in Court Appearance - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/portland-stabbing-suspect-yells-free-speech-or-die-first-court-n766416)


Some of his rants appear to contradict his past support for Sanders and Stein. Either he has had a change of heart, or his current public pronouncements are a facade.

He was a racist not just a loon.

[orionz06]

I've not been able to keep up, did the stabber do anything that warranted a response or was he just being an asshole? What was the cue for the good samaritans to jump in?

[Zincwarrior]

I've not been able to keep up, did the stabber do anything that warranted a response or was he just being an asshole? What was the cue for the good samaritans to jump in?


You mean other than the yelling at children on a train thing? In most civilized places that alone would warrant a strong response including ejection from the bus/train by the conductor/others up to an including a severe beatdown.

I know on my bus just the yelling part would likely get you squashed like a grape (its a REALLY early bus). We had one guy start yelling at the bus driver and as soon as we got off the HOV the bus stops and four metro cops appeared and used his head to inspect the door frame prior to and during removal.

[BehindBlueI's]

Here is what you said in response to my initial post:
"So "Hate speech" could very well be a crime, content and context dependent, and one that your fellow citizen can arrest you for."

If the guy limited himself to being a dick, but did not directly threaten anybody (which goes beyond what is commonly understood as hate speech), is that still the case?

You're conflating several things. I'll break it down, and if you need sources, read what I've already posted again.

1) Can hate speech also be Intimidation (or your state's equivalent)
Yes.
2) Is it always?
No.
3) Was it in this case?
Factors to include would be content and context. We do know the context included a grown man yelling at teen age girls and some of the content (at least what the media believes it to be), but not enough to make a decision.

There's also no indication that the victims did anything to attempt to effect an arrest, or did anything beyond verbally confront the guy. The arrest portion probably isn't relevant to this specific incident, more of a "in general" bit of information. Even if it was, however, he could still be arrested by his fellow "any persons" in my state. Intimidation or not, the asshole's conduct would meet the requirements for disorderly conduct and fulfill the "breach of the peace" requirement for an arrest should he continue with the breach of the peace.

[orionz06]

You mean other than the yelling at children on a train thing? In most civilized places that alone would warrant a strong response including ejection from the bus/train by the conductor/others up to an including a severe beatdown.

I know on my bus just the yelling part would likely get you squashed like a grape (its a REALLY early bus). We had one guy start yelling at the bus driver and as soon as we got off the HOV the bus stops and four metro cops appeared and used his head to inspect the door frame prior to and during removal.

Yes, was he doing anything other than that?

[Zincwarrior]

Yes, was he doing anything other than that?

I've not seen reports of other actions until he started stabbing people. He was however, illegally carrying a weapon.

[Clusterfrack]

Here's a summary from this morning's Oregonian:

Christian began harassing two teenage girls, one wearing a hijab.

The girls moved away from him. Christian moved suddenly toward Meche, who stood up.

Christian pressed his face close to Meche and shouted "Oh, do something (slur)"

Fletcher stood and Christian shoved him, then Fletcher shoved him. Christian said "Hit me again."

Fletcher told him to get off the train.

Christian had a folding knife concealed in his right hand, and stabbed Fletcher in the left side of his neck, and then stabbed Meche fatally.

Best tried to intervene, and Christian stabbed him fatally in the right side of his neck.

After being taken into custody, Christian said, "I just stabbed a bunch of (expletives) in the neck. I'm happy now. I can rest easy. I'm a patriot and I hope everyone I stabbed died."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As far as being an asshole, if one looks back to the Neo-nazis and Tom Metzger's involvement, he would train these folks to look for an minority (ethnic, religious). They would then spout insults towards this person and if the person responded, they would confront the person and start a fight with murderous intent. They would then claim mutual combat or that they were provoked. They would drive around Portland looking for folks to insult.

Thus, with these folks - I find little defense in 'being an asshole' as we have a history of such a strategy being used to justify a racist attack. This was brought up in the trials and suit. I have actually seen this done when I lived there.

So self-defense - yeah, right.

[Zincwarrior]

Here's a summary from this morning's Oregonian:

Christian began harassing two teenage girls, one wearing a hijab.

The girls moved away from him. Christian moved suddenly toward Meche, who stood up.

Christian pressed his face close to Meche and shouted "Oh, do something (slur)"

Fletcher stood and Christian shoved him, then Fletcher shoved him. Christian said "Hit me again."

Fletcher told him to get off the train.

Christian had a folding knife concealed in his right hand, and stabbed Fletcher in the left side of his neck, and then stabbed Meche fatally.

Best tried to intervene, and Christian stabbed him fatally in the right side of his neck.

After being taken into custody, Christian said, "I just stabbed a bunch of (expletives) in the neck. I'm happy now. I can rest easy. I'm a patriot and I hope everyone I stabbed died."

Racist %&$^. Hang him on public tv.

[Peally]

Yep, pretty clear cut case requiring a hanging.

Hanging needs to make a comeback. It's cheap, efficient, and relatively clean, and you don't rely on imported drugs.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Well, it's not clean when you hang a very fat person and his head pops off. That used to happen. For this guy - well, not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Peally]

We can rebuild the rope, we have the technology. Double fat guy rated rope.

[GuanoLoco]

Well, it's not clean when you hang a very fat person and his head pops off. That used to happen. For this guy - well, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Oops. Sorry. Time to update the weight to drop distance calculator.

[GuanoLoco]

Misfire

[Tamara]

...or his current public pronouncements are a facade.

No true Scotsman would say stuff like that.

[Soggy]

You're conflating several things. I'll break it down, and if you need sources, read what I've already posted again.

1) Can hate speech also be Intimidation (or your state's equivalent)
Yes.
2) Is it always?
No.
3) Was it in this case?
Factors to include would be content and context. We do know the context included a grown man yelling at teen age girls and some of the content (at least what the media believes it to be), but not enough to make a decision.

There's also no indication that the victims did anything to attempt to effect an arrest, or did anything beyond verbally confront the guy. The arrest portion probably isn't relevant to this specific incident, more of a "in general" bit of information. Even if it was, however, he could still be arrested by his fellow "any persons" in my state. Intimidation or not, the asshole's conduct would meet the requirements for disorderly conduct and fulfill the "breach of the peace" requirement for an arrest should he continue with the breach of the peace.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Disclaimer: I'm not defending the asshole, so if it came across that I was was I apologize. I speculated he would claim self defense, not that it was justified. Certainly based on the recent info coming out the other men were heroic in an extremely dire situation.

Beyond the current case, I'm still to understand the proper response if confronted with a similar situation (without the clear - cut violence or the threat of imminent violence, where there is a well established answer). Assholes like this are not uncommon, and I've seen some pretty bad behavior get excused as 'free speech/nothing we can do' when I called it in. My motivation for nitpicking this is if people get the idea they can "citizens arrest a hate crimer" it could lead to all sorts of bad outcomes.

Regarding conflating issues, I was trying to draw distinctions between 'hate speech' and legally define crimes. But suppose someone is meeting the legal definition of intimidation or breech of the peace. Based on the other info you provided citizens can only make arrests for felonies. Is intimidation/breach of the peace a felony in Indiana? (I couldn't figure out how to navigate the legal code). In Oregon "Harassment", "Interfering with public transportation", "Intimidation in the second degree", "Disorderly conduct" and "Menacing" are all misdemeanors.

EDIT to ADD: Figured it out. Disorderly conduct is a misdemeanor in Indiana. Is my reading of the other info you provided correct? It needs to be a felony for a citizens arrest?

[Soggy]

As far as being an asshole, if one looks back to the Neo-nazis and Tom Metzger's involvement, he would train these folks to look for an minority (ethnic, religious). They would then spout insults towards this person and if the person responded, they would confront the person and start a fight with murderous intent. They would then claim mutual combat or that they were provoked. They would drive around Portland looking for folks to insult.

Thus, with these folks - I find little defense in 'being an asshole' as we have a history of such a strategy being used to justify a racist attack. This was brought up in the trials and suit. I have actually seen this done when I lived there.

So self-defense - yeah, right.

This is pretty much what I described. Assholes will try and provoke people. Outcomes could be as in the Metzger case, or if someone decides to 'punch a nazi' who was only being a nazi and the nazi didn't fight back, the 'nazi-puncher' would be in trouble. Then the nazi will laugh his ass off. Understanding what/how these assholes are thinking and their motivations is useful when confronted by one. "Know your enemy" etc.

[SAWBONES]

Yep, pretty clear cut case requiring a hanging.

Hanging needs to make a comeback. It's cheap, efficient, and relatively clean, and you don't rely on imported drugs.

PUBLIC hanging.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is pretty much what I described. Assholes will try and provoke people. Outcomes could be as in the Metzger case, or if someone decides to 'punch a nazi' who was only being a nazi and the nazi didn't fight back, the 'nazi-puncher' would be in trouble. Then the nazi will laugh his ass off. Understanding what/how these assholes are thinking and their motivations is useful when confronted by one. "Know your enemy" etc.

This is a misinterpretation of the Metzger situation. They were not trying to provoke people so that the nazi-puncher would get in trouble and they would laugh. It was a deliberate and planned strategy to commit premeditated murder or serious assault and set the foundations for a legal defense. They were not trying to provoke a punch. Even a verbal response to them would get them out of the car to confront and attack you.

They were not 'assholes' but folks on the way to commit murder or assault. If the Oregon guy was in that mode, I don't know. His knife carrying and response suggests that it certainly was in his plans for his actions.

For the civilian, there is no way to know if someone just wants to yell insults or is working up to kill you. A person who yells Nazi or racist insults in a person's face is not an 'asshole' but a clear danger. Avoidance is the best strategy. On a train, you have little degrees of freedom.

As far a being an asshole, the current definitive book is: Assholes by Aaron James. You can get the Kindle edition for a couple of bucks. A summary review:


James proposes a theory of assholes (a person is an asshole when his sense of entitlement makes him immune to complaints from other people) that explains not only why assholes are a vital part of human society, but also how to recognize them and coexist with them. The author addresses some fundamental questions—such as whether assholes are born or made, a sort of nature-versus-nurture debate for the asshole crowd—and rigorously avoids what must have been a strong temptation to go for the cheap laugh (although it must be pointed out that this is definitely a lighter book than Nunberg’s more academic study).



Read the summary from:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008AEGGNS?_encoding=UTF8&isInIframe=1&n=283155&portal-device-attributes=desktop&ref_=dp_proddesc_0&s=books&showDetailProductDesc=1#iframe-wrapper

The folks in Oregon are not simply 'assholes'.

[orionz06]

What are the Oregon laws for carrying a knife? I'm still trying to see why it was a good idea to go after the asshole and involve yourself. Are the laws such that your average American male is breaking a law by carrying a typical pocket knife?

[Mr_White]

What are the Oregon laws for carrying a knife? I'm still trying to see why it was a good idea to go after the asshole and involve yourself. Are the laws such that your average American male is breaking a law by carrying a typical pocket knife?

Oregon generally has great knife laws, which is part of why there are so many of the big knife companies are here.

IANAL, but, EVERYTHING is legal to carry openly, for CONCEALED CARRY there is no blade length limit, folders and fixed both legal, "tool-only" purpose not required - only automatics/assisted/gravity/daggers/dirks/specifically designed for stabbing are illegal to carry concealed.

[AMC]

Listening to this shitstains statements and reading about his past activities, I can't figure out exactly what he believes. His actions on the train indicate religious or possibly racial bigotry (the two young girls were black).....not in and of itself illegal. In my town, in California, he could have been charged with disturbing the peace (415 PC "fighting words"), or local MTA codes for interfering with the rail line. I haven't seen anything in his supposed statements that crossed the line into felony threats under California law, but we don't really know. Under California law....if that's the case, we would have a hard time proving a Hate Crime enhancement....cause the felonies he committed (murder, attempted murder) were not committed against the targets of his bigoted rant. An argument could be made that the assaults were committed in furtherance of his racist/bigoted motives, but it would be tricky. Anyway, fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

[Totem Polar]

I've read that assholes theory book. Not bad.

I dunno. My main takeaway from this is a very good example to bring up the next time the left throws a fit when some guy who "only had a knife" gets blown up by the police. OMMV.

[Peally]

PUBLIC hanging.

No other way to do it, half the effect is showing other people "hey, you probably shouldn't do what this guy did" ;)

[critter]

Oh please... public hangin'?? Come on... human life is so precious. We should never, ever, EVER take a life. We should imprison him, reform him into a more effective criminal, then release him ten years early to escalate with his new found knowledge. We are civilized.. it's the current year!

[Soggy]

This is a misinterpretation of the Metzger situation. They were not trying to provoke people so that the nazi-puncher would get in trouble and they would laugh. It was a deliberate and planned strategy to commit premeditated murder or serious assault and set the foundations for a legal defense. They were not trying to provoke a punch. Even a verbal response to them would get them out of the car to confront and attack you.


I think you may have missed a critical "or" in my statement:
"Assholes will try and provoke people. Outcomes could be as in the Metzger case, or if someone decides to 'punch a nazi'..."

I meant the Metzger outcome as you described it, and just reiterated, is one potential outcome. Or another potential outcome (based on a different motivation) could be provoking an unjustified assault. Is that more clear?

I had forgotten about Metzger until you brought it up. In my initial post I speculated that the Portland slasher could try and claim self defense. I didn't claim it was a winning defense, or recommend anybody run out and use it to start killing people, just that it could be this guys thought process. Given the Meltzer case is similar to what I speculated was going on, that sort of thinking is not unheard of by unhinged people in that area.

[Lester Polfus]

Getting my chuckles watching the people on my social media feeds decry this guy as a loner, crazy, deranged, non-representative, whatever...when if he'd had slightly swarthy skin and an even vaguely Levantine name, they'd have mocked any reporter who said the same things about him.

Police up your own whackos, people. You know, like you keep telling others to do?


No true Scotsman would say stuff like that.

It's when you say stuff like this that it makes me wish more people were just like you....

[45dotACP]

Oh please... public hangin'?? Come on... human life is so precious. We should never, ever, EVER take a life. We should imprison him, reform in into a more effective criminal, then release him ten years early to escalate with his new found knowledge. We are civilized.. it's the current year!
Lol if you think our bleeding hearted contemporaries aren't capable of dancing/spitting on this assholes grave...

....just wait.

Civilization is only skin deep.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[idahojess]

I'm still trying to see why it was a good idea to go after the asshole and involve yourself.

Here is the PC affidavit. As noted in Clusterfrack's post, it actually doesn't appear that he was really "confronted by" the three victims. He just made victims out of the three of them... It sounds like he concealed the knife until he basically had the opportunity to stab.

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/PCAFFIDAVIT2JEREMYCHRISTIAN.tif-2.compressed.pdf

[orionz06]

Here is the PC affidavit. As noted in Clusterfrack's post, it actually doesn't appear that he was really "confronted by" the three victims. He just made victims out of the three of them... It sounds like he concealed the knife until he basically had the opportunity to stab.

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/PCAFFIDAVIT2JEREMYCHRISTIAN.tif-2.compressed.pdf

They attempted to intervene. They entered the mix on their own it seems.

[idahojess]

They attempted to intervene. They entered the mix on their own it seems.

PC affidavit says that "Mr. Forde" attempted to intervene. He wasn't one of the guys who got stabbed. All this happened on a train-- kind of hard to get out of the way...

[idahojess]

Here is video from the day before, after a woman maced him after he threw a bottle at her. (Video taker should have gotten the heck out of there... Guy's a whacked out criminal.)


http://youtu.be/HTHEceaGw0A


An article describing the video:


At one point he gestured pulling something out of his pocket. And at that point all of people around him got up and moved to the other end of the train. I hesitated and moved slowly shortly after in fear my quick reaction would trigger him further. His rant was about 15 mins long, but I was only able to get the tail end of it until I felt so uncomfortable I moved. The max driver was alerted and stopped for a few mins at gateway where me and the other passengers assumed the max driver would have him removed and hopefully arrested, but instead did nothing!!!
http://www.wweek.com/news/2017/05/28/video-shows-alleged-killer-ranting-against-religion-and-antifa-and-threatening-to-stab-anybody-who-tried-to-stop-him/

[TAZ]

Here is video from the day before, after a woman maced him after he threw a bottle at her. (Video taker should have gotten the heck out of there... Guy's a whacked out criminal.)


http://youtu.be/HTHEceaGw0A


An article describing the video:


At one point he gestured pulling something out of his pocket. And at that point all of people around him got up and moved to the other end of the train. I hesitated and moved slowly shortly after in fear my quick reaction would trigger him further. His rant was about 15 mins long, but I was only able to get the tail end of it until I felt so uncomfortable I moved. The max driver was alerted and stopped for a few mins at gateway where me and the other passengers assumed the max driver would have him removed and hopefully arrested, but instead did nothing!!!
http://www.wweek.com/news/2017/05/28/video-shows-alleged-killer-ranting-against-religion-and-antifa-and-threatening-to-stab-anybody-who-tried-to-stop-him/

Interesting to say the least. So basically, the day before he killed 2 and seriously injured another the "system" had a chance to take him out of the public perview and chose not to. Awesome.

I too am confused by the sequence of events. Did the 3 guys who got stabbed physically confront the guy. Was he threatening to hurt the girls or just ranting at them? How old were these "girls" and why were they alone on the MAX? I am trying to figure out from a legal standpoint if they had any business stepping into the situation. You can argue morals all you want, but in court youre better of if there was a legal reason to get involved. Protection of a third party from imminent injury and such. The guy is obviously whack and this situation has huge parallels with domestic violence in that its going to be shit show no matter how you deal with it. So as a non LEO with no training, backup or apparently even weapons why get involved in any manner unless the threat of imminent injury exists. If that threat exist why are the good samaritans talking instead of dog piling the bad guy?

[idahojess]

The PC affidavit, which I think is the most reliable source of info right now, says the girls were juveniles, so they were probably under 18. Two of the charges listed in the affidavit are intimidation, which I would guess at least one stems from his statements before the physical confrontation , particularly "decapitating heads." (I'm not familiar with Oregon statutes...) Probably one count for each of the girls. Those are added on to the murder charges and assault charges.

[Jay Cunningham]

No video of the actual event? Neither smartphone nor CCTV?

[Drang]

No video of the actual event? Neither smartphone nor CCTV?

Apparently not on YouTube, anyway.

Really wish I hadn't gone looking, either, because I think I facepalmed myself so hard I gave myself a concussion when I saw all the posts there "proving" that the whole thing is a COINTELPRO Hoax...

[RoyGBiv]

Police search for man who allegedly swiped victim's belongings
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/02/portland-stabbings-police-search-for-man-who-allegedly-swiped-victims-belongings.html

[Lon]

Police search for man who allegedly swiped victim's belongings
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/02/portland-stabbings-police-search-for-man-who-allegedly-swiped-victims-belongings.html

What a shit stain. I hope karma comes back and kicks his ass.

[orionz06]

I am trying to figure out from a legal standpoint if they had any business stepping into the situation.


That's where I'm at, just doesn't seem to make sense to get involved with someone who is already upset and/or into a plan. Turning things up on behalf of a stranger who wasn't harmed? Pass.

[Zincwarrior]

Whats the issue. From a "legal standpoint" there is no legal issue with others standing up for someone being bullied. What is the argument here? only if those bystanders commit a crime (assault/battery/criminal nose picking) is the law involved. In contrast, depending on the situation, those bystanders may have legal rights for a citizen's arrest, depending on the activities of the BG.

Does it make sense? That is a question, but it is not a legal one.

[orionz06]

It's a little spoiled as we know the ending but my stance on speaking up when it's unnecessary remains the same. In this case standing up wound up having some poor consequences, wouldn't ya say?

[Zincwarrior]

It's a little spoiled as we know the ending but my stance on speaking up when it's unnecessary remains the same. In this case standing up wound up having some poor consequences, wouldn't ya say?

It sounds like however, the victims were not actually the ones speaking up. Maybe I mistook the articles.

Its an interesting argument and a reasonable one-when should someone intervene? To myself thats a personal issue and I've argued that I personally mind my own business as no one is going to take care of my family if something happens to me. On the other hand this is an adult racist attacking teenage girls. As I have one of those (UT Austin mad scientist school here she comes!) myself, if no one protects them, who will protect mine? (of course mine has been taught to burn his eyes out with mace...)

[orionz06]

It sounds like however, the victims were not actually the ones speaking up. Maybe I mistook the articles.

Sounds like one guy got the other two stabbed.




Its an interesting argument and a reasonable one-when should someone intervene? To myself thats a personal issue and I've argued that I personally mind my own business as no one is going to take care of my family if something happens to me. On the other hand this is an adult racist attacking teenage girls. As I have one of those (UT Austin mad scientist school here she comes!) myself, if no one protects them, who will protect mine? (of course mine has been taught to burn his eyes out with mace...)


I don't want things in court similar to Zimmerman/Martin. Before interacting the eventual outcomes need considered and I'm not sure that "he was saying mean things, I had to get involved" is the best start to my defense if it turns into a fight and the (then) first amendment activist who was being an asshole dies.


That's not to say that's what the guy was but that's how it could be painted to the jury.

[Zincwarrior]

Depends on the jury and area as well. I can say with excellent certainty in Williamson County that if the defense started with "he was saying mean things to two girls on the bus, I told him to shut up" the case would never go to trial. In Travis County, well you're taking your chances.

[orionz06]

At what point are you, the guy standing up for someone, the instigator? The assholes free speech is somewhat protected, save for the hate crime potential. Hard to view it as too different than you being the one to walk up and start a fight and if we assume the white knight wins the altercation and the asshole is dead the whole process looks like a murder.

[Zincwarrior]

At what point are you, the guy standing up for someone, the instigator? The assholes free speech is somewhat protected, save for the hate crime potential. Hard to view it as too different than you being the one to walk up and start a fight and if we assume the white knight wins the altercation and the asshole is dead the whole process looks like a murder.

You're the instigator when you commit a crime. Until then you're not. Telling someone to shut up is not a crime nor does it set up a claim for self defense on the part of the other party.

Your note about his free speech rights apply only until they fall into the realm of assault upon the children -the threat of imminent harm or offensive touching. If I as Joe Wiener Dog reasonably believe his actions/words are meeting the definition of causing an assault on those children then I can act to protect those children or effectively make a citizen's arrest.

[Lester Polfus]

I think the way we are having this discussion is part of the problem.

Assholes shouting obscenities and threats to people on public transportation is wrong. One of the hallmarks of civilized society is that people can walk around without being subjected to that sort of thing. It's particularly troublesome when the targets of the abuse are young women. While it's certainly true that there are plenty of pipe hitting, bjj rolling, CHL holding women out there, there are still plenty that aren't.

It's then incumbent on able bodied people on the train, men in particular, to take care of that shit.

While I appreciate everyone's arguments about how it isn't your job, or the costs maybe aren't worth it or etc, I've intervened in shit like this before, and fully intend to again in the future. And while I also appreciate the sardonic, world weary comments about how thin the veil of civilization is, it gets much thinner when people won't take care of this sort of thing.

[RJ]

It's a little spoiled as we know the ending but my stance on speaking up when it's unnecessary remains the same. In this case standing up wound up having some poor consequences, wouldn't ya say?

I'm kinda with Tom on this.

Obviously we all have different yardsticks to measure what's acceptable in using deadly force to 'protect' others.

By most accounts, in this case two bystanders are dead for intervening. I don't know what they saw or heard or experienced. I am very sad though, and hope the asshole gets what's coming to him after a fair trial.

I will say in my case my thoughts changed significantly after reading Andrew Bianca's book The Law of Self-Defense, particularly the section on several case studies about third party interventions. Some IIRC did not work out for the interveners.

As a senior citizen civilian with no hands on skills, seeing someone being verbally assaulted in a Public space, I'm going to tend to get me and mine (meaning, blood relative) safe and then call the cops. YMMV, obviously.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TAZ]

I think we are all commenting based on our own internal lines in the sand which is then confounded by the fact that we know the sad outcome of this event. I'm betting that if the story was 3 good Samaritans throat punch guy threatening 2 young girls we'd all be going good job.

Just goes to show how fast an average day can turn into a shit show.

[Totem Polar]

That's where I'm at, just doesn't seem to make sense to get involved with someone who is already upset and/or into a plan. Turning things up on behalf of a stranger who wasn't harmed? Pass.
True this. Logic says that you had best A) have skills and means to control the situation and keep yourself from harm and, even worse, B) have skills and means to control the situation and keep the asshole from being killed or seriously hurt while you intervene.

Ultimately, it's a conundrum; I also agree that regularly occurring "free speech" like this does nothing to help keep up the thin veil.

Consider how else this could have played out; folks could have called the po-po, and sat on their asses filming, and we'd be just as likely to see videos of a mentally disturbed man being shot by officers on video.

Sort of a no-win "kobayashi maru" (for you geeks) scenario, really. Like that fictional test, the only way to win is to hack it before it starts; baihu had the answer back on p1. This guy should have been behind bars.

[Zincwarrior]

True this. Logic says that you had best A) have skills and means to control the situation and keep yourself from harm and, even worse, B) have skills and means to control the situation and keep the asshole from being killed or seriously hurt while you intervene.

Ultimately, it's a conundrum; I also agree that regularly occurring "free speech" like this does nothing to help keep up the thin veil.

Consider how else this could have played out; folks could have called the po-po, and sat on their asses filming, and we'd be just as likely to see videos of a mentally disturbed man being shot by officers on video.

Sort of a no-win "kobayashi maru" (for you geeks) scenario, really. Like that fictional test, the only way to win is to hack it before it starts; baihu had the answer back on p1. This guy should have been behind bars.

It could also have played out that he kills the girls and maybe some other bystanders.

[Hambo]

If you haven't read Greg Ellifritz's post on this, you probably should.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-portland-train-stabbings

[Peally]

Mirrors my idle thoughts on the event. I'd never get into a heated verbal argument with someone clearly crazy, but if I'm stuck in the area I'll definitely attempt to positively intervene if there's a requirement for firearms.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It could also have played out that he kills the girls and maybe some other bystanders.
Or even just the girls. It sucks that it turned out this way but I can't fault the guys for intervening. And if not those girls, clearly this guy was a ticking time bomb who'd have gone off on someone.

Maybe those guys threw themselves in front of a bus and saved a couple of kids. If so...sure, maybe there wasn't a good rational argument for them to intervene. But it was a damn fine thing to do.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Buckshot]

delete please

[Buckshot]

Public transportation is not off-limits per ORS. I also checked Trimet's website and it doesn't say anything about guns, hell I saw a guy get off the 33 with a rifle a couple years back. WOW, TriMet regs must have changed since I left in '98. I clearly remember it being a no-go in my day, & since Clyde Caseres was my OR CHL instructor, I doubt he got it wrong.

[Mr_White]

WOW, TriMet regs must have changed since I left in '98. I clearly remember it being a no-go in my day, & since Clyde Caseres was my OR CHL instructor, I doubt he got it wrong.

It may have changed. I wasn't really in the gun world or Portland in 98, but there has been a multiple-decades-long process of Portland and various administrative sub-fiefdoms like Tri Met asserting the anti gun and knife rules they'd LIKE to have, only to get shot down by a higher court later due to the overall state preemption scheme or constitutionality issues.

[Drang]

It may have changed. I wasn't really in the gun world or Portland in 98, but there has been a multiple-decades-long process of Portland and various administrative sub-fiefdoms like Tri Met asserting the anti gun and knife rules they'd LIKE to have, only to get shot down by a higher court later due to the overall state preemption scheme or constitutionality issues.

The same process has been going on pretty much simultaneously north of the Columbia.

[orionz06]

If you haven't read Greg Ellifritz's post on this, you probably should.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-portland-train-stabbings

Nailed it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Is intimidation/breach of the peace a felony in Indiana?

EDIT to ADD: Figured it out. Disorderly conduct is a misdemeanor in Indiana. Is my reading of the other info you provided correct? It needs to be a felony for a citizens arrest?

Intimidation can be a Misdemeanor A, Felony 6, or Felony 5, depending on various factors. http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-45-2-1.html

Disorderly Conduct is always a Misdemeanor.

"Any person" can arrest for a misdemeanor if it involves an ongoing breach of the peace.


 (a) Any person may arrest any other person if:
(1) the other person committed a felony in his presence;
(2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony;  or
(3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.
- See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-33-1-4.html#sthash.VgOHnd3Q.dpuf

[TAZ]

If you haven't read Greg Ellifritz's post on this, you probably should.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-portland-train-stabbings

Excellent article.

[Soggy]

Intimidation can be a Misdemeanor A, Felony 6, or Felony 5, depending on various factors. http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-45-2-1.html

Disorderly Conduct is always a Misdemeanor.

"Any person" can arrest for a misdemeanor if it involves an ongoing breach of the peace.

Thanks BBI. I saw that bit about arresting for breach of the peace after I posted. I did not see a definition for "breach of the peace" in the code though, which I thought was odd. Did I miss it?

Thanks again.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks BBI. I saw that bit about arresting for breach of the peace after I posted. I did not see a definition for "breach of the peace" in the code though, which I thought was odd. Did I miss it?

Thanks again.

It's based on common law. There is also supporting case law that would apply only to Indiana. A quick Google would answer your questions, or take a look at State V Hart or Lemon v State.

[blues]

It looks like they found the lowlife slug (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40144831) that took the ring and backpack of one of the victims.

[LittleLebowski]

Am I crazy or did two American Caucasians stand up to an American Caucasian racist to protect minorities?

[blues]

Am I crazy or did two American Caucasians stand up to an American Caucasian racist to protect minorities?

It's been known to happen. (http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/slain-civil-rights-workers-found)

[Soggy]

It's based on common law. There is also supporting case law that would apply only to Indiana. A quick Google would answer your questions, or take a look at State V Hart or Lemon v State.

A noteworthy bit from both cases, applicable to Indiana: "Our supreme court has stated that violence, either actual or threatened, is an essential element of breaching the peace."

[idahojess]

Guilty on 12 counts, including 2 counts of murder and one count of attempted murder:

https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/02/jeremy-christian-guilty-on-all-counts-in-max-stabbings-trial.html

[Alpha Sierra]

Yet another reason to stay the fuck off public transport of any sort

[GyroF-16]

But it’s a gun-free zone, so it’s safe. <S>