First IDPA Match & Review

[Sterling Archer]

I recently shot my first IDPA match and I decided to write a review on IDPA as a whole and whether it has any relevance to real life usage of a firearm. As always I'm interested in feedback.

Here's a link to the article and video from the match: https://gunpowdermeditation.com/2017/05/26/idpa-review/

[Peally]

Games are there for testing your fundamentals, nothing more.

[olstyn]

Games are there for testing your fundamentals, nothing more.

I hear they're also fun, or at least, I remember almost every match I've ever shot being fun. (USPSA - I haven't personally tried IDPA, although I assume it's also fun.) YMMV, of course.

[Peally]

I hear they're also fun, or at least, I remember almost every match I've ever shot being fun. (USPSA - I haven't personally tried IDPA, although I assume it's also fun.) YMMV, of course.

They get less fun the harder you work at them but yes :D

[Luke]

Peally spittin troof!

[Wobblie]

They get less fun the harder you work at them but yes :D

Fun diminishes as the frustration level climbs. True for any game I guess.

[Zincwarrior]

I recently shot my first IDPA match and I decided to write a review on IDPA as a whole and whether it has any relevance to real life usage of a firearm. As always I'm interested in feedback.

Here's a link to the article and video from the match: https://gunpowdermeditation.com/2017/05/26/idpa-review/

Good for you young man. I think you'll find IDPA is a big bag of fun.
EDIT: I read your review. You seemed to have missed that IDPA is a game. Did you lose that badly?


Games are there for testing your fundamentals, nothing more.
Thats why I run stages blindfolded (literally, seeing your target is for chumps). Whats more fundamental than walking! :cool:
Plus everyone sees how awesome I am and leaves quickly in utter shame, so I always win. Sometimes they leave so fast they are burning rubber.

[Sterling Archer]

Good for you young man. I think you'll find IDPA is a big bag of fun.
EDIT: I read your review. You seemed to have missed that IDPA is a game. Did you lose that badly?



I addressed your comments in the article. Unless you want to follow me around posting the same incorrect information, then feel free. Hope you have a better day and learn to not take an article you weren't remotely involved with personally.

[Zincwarrior]

I addressed your comments in the article. Unless you want to follow me around posting the same incorrect information, then feel free. Hope you have a better day and learn to not take an article you weren't remotely involved with personally.

I didn't take it personally. If I did my post would have included four lines worth of insults because I am mean and spiteful like that.
Also you posted the link so I replied to the link. Don't post the link if you don't want comments.

Nearly every point you made is easily refuted with the simple admonition that ITS A GAME. Nothing I posted is incorrect.

To restate:
*crowding cover is something new shooters do. you are not forced to do that.
*leaning out is a result of the fault lines which are new and in place to take human variability out of the game (aka cover calls).
*you complained about getting a call for not wearing cover. You must have missed where everyone else was wearing cover. Its a simple, basic rule and SOs will typically remind you if you come up to the stage without it. You argued it was Texas, well I compete (badly) in Central Texas. And?
*you complained about ten round counts, when again, its a game and the rule is designed to take variability out of it (same as in production in USPSA).
*you complained about moving while shooting. Other games have no movement whatsoever (steel challenge/bullseye). It just depends on the game. IDPA / USPSA / three gun have movement.

The old IDPA/USPSA WILL GET YOU KILLED!!! is an old trope and frankly its tiring. Its a game that is fun and helps you practice some of the basics. Its not designed for anything else. You wouldn't mistake Moto cross as evasion training.

[Sterling Archer]

As I said, I already addressed your comments in the article. I'm not going to engage with you when you continually won't read what's already been posted.

If you want to have a real discussion I'm more than happy to, I don't think that's what you're all about though. So thanks for your feedback and have a nice day.

[Zincwarrior]

As I said, I already addressed your comments in the article. I'm not going to engage with you when you continually won't read what's already been posted.

If you want to have a real discussion I'm more than happy to, I don't think that's what you're all about though. So thanks for your feedback and have a nice day.

I read your post there. You didn't dispute any of the posts I made. You do appear to like to sling passive aggressive slights though, which is interesting.
I'd love to have a "real discussion" here or there if you refute my actual points.

So lets step back and do that. Which point is off?

[HopetonBrown]

So what place did you come in, out of how many shooters?

[45dotACP]

Nice work jumping in man!

As far as gun games having much relevance in real world use of handguns...well someone could write a book about that. They definitely help you with being able to shoot and manipulate your gun efficiently. How much of that is involved in a defensive shooting is not a question I can personally answer, but it's one less thing for you to have to worry about. All the other things involved in fighting...well that's probably not something you can easily develop in a weekly IDPA match, but it seems like you've trained with some good defensive shooters.

Plus, a healthy dose of competitiveness will drive practice, which will improve skill. Better to be the guy who can clock a one second draw to an A-zone (or down zero if you prefer) from concealment than the guy who keeps his pistol in a sock drawer and shoots it once yearly.

I highly suggest USPSA...it's fun. In spite of it being hard work to get good, shooting guns is still pretty damn fun. That said, you'll get soul crushing junk punched by more than a few stages/classifiers/shooters.

[Sterling Archer]

So lets step back and do that. Which point is off?

Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. My responses are below in bold.



Nearly every point you made is easily refuted with the simple admonition that ITS A GAME. Nothing I posted is incorrect.
As I said in the article " First and foremost it’s a game, in most meaningful defensive facets, just like USPSA. Is that a bad thing though? Not necessarily. If you just want a game to play and you prefer the IDPA format over others then rock on. In any competition shooting, if you want to keep it real life relevant, then make sure you don’t confuse the two."

To restate:
*crowding cover is something new shooters do. you are not forced to do that.
With the fault lines and target placement there is no other way to get the required angles/shots unless you crowd and bend around. This wasn't just in my match, as I said in the article, I watch a lot of match videos.

*leaning out is a result of the fault lines which are new and in place to take human variability out of the game (aka cover calls).
I realize that and for a game it's fine. For real life I don't believe it is.

*you complained about getting a call for not wearing cover. You must have missed where everyone else was wearing cover. Its a simple, basic rule and SOs will typically remind you if you come up to the stage without it. You argued it was Texas, well I compete (badly) in Central Texas. And?
I didn't complain, even when I got the call. I asked for clarification and then moved on. A lot of active IDPA shooters dislike the rules, it's probably one of the most talked about subjects in IDPA. It was part of the experience I was writing about and therefore relevant to the article.

*you complained about ten round counts, when again, its a game and the rule is designed to take variability out of it (same as in production in USPSA).
Once again, I didn't complain. You just can't seem to get past trying to assign me some discontent that isn't there. I pointed out one aspect of the game and even explained why it was like that. No where did I say it was bad.

*you complained about moving while shooting. Other games have no movement whatsoever (steel challenge/bullseye). It just depends on the game. IDPA / USPSA / three gun have movement.
Again with the complaining... I illustrated why it's not real life relevant and provided a quote by Paul Howe supporting that assertion. If you believe you know better than him then take it up with him. I on the other hand will take his instruction and real life experience to heart.

The old IDPA/USPSA WILL GET YOU KILLED!!! is an old trope and frankly its tiring. Its a game that is fun and helps you practice some of the basics. Its not designed for anything else. You wouldn't mistake Moto cross as evasion training.
As my article already stated, yes it's a game. Did you really not fully read the article before posting your retort? There are things like crowding cover, which IDPA matches seem to encourage, that can get you killed. As evidenced by the video of the fallen officer. IDPA markets itself as being more real life relevant than USPSA for example. My article was focused on that myth and how IDPA may or may not translate to real life.



As I said in my article "If you’re a shooter looking to advance your skills through competition, make sure you establish your priorities going in and don’t confuse the two. Do you want to play the game or practice for real life?"

[Sterling Archer]

So what place did you come in, out of how many shooters?

I don't know, I never looked. I went in wanting to focus on my accuracy and did just that. Several shooters complimented me on it after nearly cleaning several stages. I got to experience something new, meet a fellow forum member, and shoot. All my goals were met.

I typically don't check my match scores unless someone points it out to me. When I shoot steel matches for example I track how many overall rounds fired verse how many would be required to clean the match. I'm more interested in tracking my accuracy than how fast I shot compared to others. Once I stopped focusing on speed and stayed focused on accuracy I started winning.

[Sterling Archer]

Nice work jumping in man!

As far as gun games having much relevance in real world use of handguns...well someone could write a book about that. They definitely help you with being able to shoot and manipulate your gun efficiently. How much of that is involved in a defensive shooting is not a question I can personally answer, but it's one less thing for you to have to worry about. All the other things involved in fighting...well that's probably not something you can easily develop in a weekly IDPA match, but it seems like you've trained with some good defensive shooters.

Plus, a healthy dose of competitiveness will drive practice, which will improve skill. Better to be the guy who can clock a one second draw to an A-zone (or down zero if you prefer) from concealment than the guy who keeps his pistol in a sock drawer and shoots it once yearly.

I highly suggest USPSA...it's fun. In spite of it being hard work to get good, shooting guns is still pretty damn fun. That said, you'll get soul crushing junk punched by more than a few stages/classifiers/shooters.

Thanks! I've been looking at USPSA matches in my area. June offerings are pretty sparse though so it may not be until July, the main club seems to be on vacation.

I'm a big believer in competition providing real world benefits. I've often quoted a Massad Ayoob article: "At the first Bianchi Cup in 1979, I shot on the same squad as Jim Cirillo. We were walking together from one stage of the event to another when Jim told me he had never felt this much stress in any of his gunfights. I asked him why. He replied that there weren’t all these people watching, and there wasn’t all this time to build up to it."

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2017/03/gunfight-survival-tips/#gunfight-survival-1

On another forum someone posted a video by Rob Leatham on the subject, I thought it made some good points.


https://youtu.be/HmcXPc8qGic

[HopetonBrown]

I don't know, I never looked. I went in wanting to focus on my accuracy and did just that. Several shooters complimented me on it after nearly cleaning several stages. I got to experience something new, meet a fellow forum member, and shoot. All my goals were met.

I typically don't check my match scores unless someone points it out to me. When I shoot steel matches for example I track how many overall rounds fired verse how many would be required to clean the match. I'm more interested in tracking my accuracy than how fast I shot compared to others. Once I stopped focusing on speed and stayed focused on accuracy I started winning.

You should be able to check online. To be honest, your blog post and posts here kinda sound like sour grapes because you might not have done as well as you thought you should have.

[Peally]

I find it odd that these threads always turn to subtle shit flinging. I can't stand IDPA for multiple well documented reasons, but I don't go out of my way to poo on IDPA threads (at least I try most of the time). Everyone go and dry fire a little more.

[Sterling Archer]

To be honest, your blog post and posts here kinda sound like sour grapes because you might not have done as well as you thought you should have.

You're going to read into it what you will based on your own perception. Perhaps you should read some other content from my training journal to gain a new perspective. I am brutally honest in my self review. If I tank a match I own up to it and don't put off blame, I've posted videos of horrible outings I've had. I'm not sure where you would even get the idea as I never once talked about my shooting or score. My only reference was a minor paragraph on the procedural call. Had I complained about my score or calls I considered bad then you would have a case. Currently you're basing your theory on a, feeling? :confused:

Everything I stated is factual. I didn't use generic statements like "Shooting IDPA will get you killed!" with no further content. Instead I addressed specific actions and the consequences of them, with clear and relevant supporting material. If you don't like the light it puts on IDPA then that's your right.

I enjoyed shooting my first match and asked a local club if they would let me shoot my way or consider it a hinderance to their match. They were very nice and accommodating, saying it would be fine and just notify the RO/SO so he doesn't verbally call me on it during the stage. I'm looking forward to my next match.

[HopetonBrown]

You're going to read into it what you will based on your own perception. Perhaps you should read some other content from my training journal to gain a new perspective. I am brutally honest in my self review. If I tank a match I own up to it and don't put off blame, I've posted videos of horrible outings I've had. I'm not sure where you would even get the idea as I never once talked about my shooting or score. My only reference was a minor paragraph on the procedural call. Had I complained about my score or calls I considered bad then you would have a case. Currently you're basing your theory on a, feeling? :confused:

Everything I stated is factual. I didn't use generic statements like "Shooting IDPA will get you killed!" with no further content. Instead I addressed specific actions and the consequences of them, with clear and relevant supporting material. If you don't like the light it puts on IDPA then that's your right.

I enjoyed shooting my first match and asked a local club if they would let me shoot my way or consider it a hinderance to their match. They were very nice and accommodating, saying it would be fine and just notify the RO/SO so he doesn't verbally call me on it during the stage. I'm looking forward to my next match.

To be fair, everyone thinks they're brutally honest in their self critiques.

IDPA is just a game. Games have rules. Follow the rules, play the game, have fun. IDPA/USPSA/3 gun/ICORE/SASS are all gun games. Participation helps the shooter work under time pressure.

There's always a guy at a match who will tell you he's "just there to have fun". If you run that through your decoder ring that translates into "I'm not doing very well, but I don't care, because I'm doing this for a different reason than you". Evidently he thinks everyone else is there because of some sort of employer mandated program.

"I'm just here to have fun" or "I'm going to shoot it tactically" is an out to explain why they did poorly, in my experience.

So instead of trying to make something into something it's not, why not just play by the rules and enjoy the sport? You can do the tactical in your next FoF class, or join a local airsoft club.

I've got a buddy who is a Limited GM. He knows that I'm a recovering tactard. He said that his complaint about "tactical" shooters is that they take everything so seriously all the time. I agree.

[Sterling Archer]

To be fair, everyone thinks they're brutally honest in their self critiques.

IDPA is just a game. Games have rules. Follow the rules, play the game, have fun. IDPA/USPSA/3 gun/ICORE/SASS are all gun games. Participation helps the shooter work under time pressure.

There's always a guy at a match who will tell you he's "just there to have fun". If you run that through your decoder ring that translates into "I'm not doing very well, but I don't care, because I'm doing this for a different reason than you". Evidently he thinks everyone else is there because of some sort of employer mandated program.

"I'm just here to have fun" or "I'm going to shoot it tactically" is an out to explain why they did poorly, in my experience.

So instead of trying to make something into something it's not, why not just play by the rules and enjoy the sport? You can do the tactical in your next FoF class, or join a local airsoft club.

I've got a buddy who is a Limited GM. He knows that I'm a recovering tactard. He said that his complaint about "tactical" shooters is that they take everything so seriously all the time. I agree.
Thank you for illustrating my point. It doesn't matter what I say, you'll spin it fit your idea of what you think I'm saying to say instead of just listening. There is simply no help for that. Have a good evening.

[Cory]

Hey bud! Glad to see you over here. Seems you've gotten a wonderful reception with this thread. People seem to take your write up as a complaint thread about not doing well. Those of us who have had conversations with you for awhile now know different.

I think the big problem as I see it, is that IDPA tries to take itself seriously. IDPA tries to come off as the tactical timmy game that is more realistic. And I think everyone will agree on that. USPSA doesn't try to be "realistic" it is purely a performance and ability game. IDPA is too... but like you said it markets itself differently.

You've been doing steel challenge for awhile now, did a practical competition feel different? By that I mean were you worried at all about the additional complexity with reloads and movement? Did it feel like there was more pressure? I'm headed to my 3rd local club steel match this weekend, and am looking forward to trying USPSA sometime this summer. I'm wondering if there is a higher pressure level that I can get used to performing under. I'm also curious if you changed your practice regimen at all in preparation for the match, or if you kept going with normal practice just to see how the match differs.

-Cory

[Zincwarrior]

Its just me, but I'd proffer the primary difference between USPSA and IDPA with the new rules changes is that its more focused to moderate budget/competitors. With the addition of reloads generally anywhere and fault lines the differences are substantially with more focus on forced accuracy and slower game.

I think of it as "amble and shoot" vs. "run and gun."

[Jim Watson]

IDPA tries to come off as the tactical timmy game that is more realistic.

IDPA is not a conscious entity that "tries" anything. Some people try one thing, some try another.
I find the IDPA Tacticians to be a lot more common on the internet than on the range. Most of us shoot the CoF for the best score, just like USPSA but with a few limitations.
I am pretty sure Bill Wilson is not a "tactical timmy" and while I am not always sure what Joyce Wilson is getting at, I don't think she is either.

It is commonly said that "IDPA is "just a game."" Well, it is a game but it is not just a game. It is a business and its management is going to run it so as to improve revenue. They might be wrong on details, but they are working in their own interest.

[DAB]

you can shoot matches and try to be the fastest

you can shoot matches and try to have the best score (speed plus accuracy)

you can shoot matches and try to be the most accurate

you can shoot matches and just have fun

there is never a bad day at the range, shooting your gun with friends.

if you try to get too much out of it, you'll go home mad and frustrated.

[Sterling Archer]

You've been doing steel challenge for awhile now, did a practical competition feel different? By that I mean were you worried at all about the additional complexity with reloads and movement? Did it feel like there was more pressure? I'm headed to my 3rd local club steel match this weekend, and am looking forward to trying USPSA sometime this summer. I'm wondering if there is a higher pressure level that I can get used to performing under. I'm also curious if you changed your practice regimen at all in preparation for the match, or if you kept going with normal practice just to see how the match differs.


It was some additional complexity for sure. It wasn't as bad as I thought, but the stages weren't too awfully complicated either. I liked the increase thinking under stress that was required to run the stages properly.

The previous week I shot my first steel match with movement which was a good primer. While not as complicated as IDPA stages it got me used to the competitive movement. In training/class for example when we're moving we use the sul position, often because we're bounding over our partner to the next piece of cover. In competition you've got the 180* degree, you'll see where it slowed me down in the match as I had to figure out the best way to keep my pistol pointed downrange but run uprange.

My training has stepped up lately as I'm taking a 5-day CSAT instructor course in a few months. So while I didn't change my training per se I did start doing dry-fire 5 days a week, instead of just random times I thought of it. I've found it has really increased my first round speed, hit percentage and confidence.

I'd love to see some match video, do you post those in your journal?

[Sterling Archer]

IDPA is not a conscious entity that "tries" anything.

That's exactly what it is. Their consciousness is the board members/leaders who make the decisions on the sport. On their webpage under About IDPA is "IDPA is the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios using practical handguns and holsters that are suitable for self-defense use. The main goal is to test the skill and ability of an individual."

Someone had to write that and it gives an obvious direction of what they're trying to be.

[Jim Watson]

That is what I term Pious Platitudes and a lot of it is not reflected in practice. At least not at a level that impresses a number of readers.
You will find similar stuff in the introduction to IPSC and USPSA, which is roundly ignored at their events.

[Zincwarrior]

That is what I term Pious Platitudes and a lot of it is not reflected in practice. At least not at a level that impresses a number of readers.
You will find similar stuff in the introduction to IPSC and USPSA, which is roundly ignored at their events.
Indeed. The stage where I was shooting from a simulated horse or shooting zombies while holding a fishing rod in one hand (don't lose your catch!) kind of belay that. :)
Now some are much more focused in that area obviously or are more purely skills focused, but for most people (aka nonPoPo), real defensive scenario options are limited.

[Sterling Archer]

That is what I term Pious Platitudes and a lot of it is not reflected in practice. At least not at a level that impresses a number of readers.
You will find similar stuff in the introduction to IPSC and USPSA, which is roundly ignored at their events.

Okay, but you disagreed with Cory that IDPA tries to be something. Then you called their statement a pious platitude. You just contradicted yourself. Either it's trying to be something or trying to represent itself as something, or it isn't.

[DAB]

:rolleyes:

was anyone mean to you, or did a bunch of folks welcome you and encourage you to have a good, safe time?

get involved. get to know the MD. offer to design stages (i've done a bunch). create a stage that you think reflect reality better than fishing with zombies. all kinds of variables you can play with to create an interesting and challenging stage. the possibilities are endless.

[Jim Watson]

Okay, but you disagreed with Cory that IDPA tries to be something. Then you called their statement a pious platitude. You just contradicted yourself. Either it's trying to be something or trying to represent itself as something, or it isn't.

No, what I am saying is that "IDPA" is not an individual. Somebody wrote the pious platitudes - Bill Wilson or one of the other original BoD, most likely - and HE wanted to represent a policy for IDPA shooting. But the rules and application don't always promote that policy. There is no "it" for IDPA.

It doesn't really matter outside the realm of gunboard discussion. I will attend a match on Saturday and go by the rules, policies, and procedures as applied at the individual range. And always considering Rule Zero.

[Cory]

It was some additional complexity for sure. It wasn't as bad as I thought, but the stages weren't too awfully complicated either. I liked the increase thinking under stress that was required to run the stages properly.

The previous week I shot my first steel match with movement which was a good primer. While not as complicated as IDPA stages it got me used to the competitive movement. In training/class for example when we're moving we use the sul position, often because we're bounding over our partner to the next piece of cover. In competition you've got the 180* degree, you'll see where it slowed me down in the match as I had to figure out the best way to keep my pistol pointed downrange but run uprange.

My training has stepped up lately as I'm taking a 5...

Awesome. I'm looking forward to shooting a match with added pressure. I think that is where the true value in competition is. If you can subconsciously use your firearm to make shots while your thinking about the problem your solving... that seems like a win to me. Performance under pressure while thinking about something else.

I don't have any match video. When I go to the match I don't really know anyone well enough to ask them to video for me. And, the only thing I would have to video with is a cell phone with a smashed screen. My camera died on my last range visit and I had to try to use my cell. It didn't go well... so I don't know about video. I'd like to get one. I think it would be really helpful to review after.

I think we're going to have to let those who believe the International Defensive Pistol Association doesn't attempt to market itself as real world defense continue on their way (Or the board who represents the entity tries to market it... semantics). I would really be interested in hearing your thoughts on USPSA if you get a chance to shoot a match.

-Cory

[MVS]

It was some additional complexity for sure. It wasn't as bad as I thought, but the stages weren't too awfully complicated either. I liked the increase thinking under stress that was required to run the stages properly.

The previous week I shot my first steel match with movement which was a good primer. While not as complicated as IDPA stages it got me used to the competitive movement. In training/class for example when we're moving we use the sul position, often because we're bounding over our partner to the next piece of cover. In competition you've got the 180* degree, you'll see where it slowed me down in the match as I had to figure out the best way to keep my pistol pointed downrange but run uprange.

My training has stepped up lately as I'm taking a 5-day CSAT instructor course in a few months. So while I didn't change my training per se I did start doing dry-fire 5 days a week, instead of just random times I thought of it. I've found it has really increased my first round speed, hit percentage and confidence.

I'd love to see some match video, do you post those in your journal?

I was wondering about that. Do you think those were fairly typical IDPA stages? As a guy who has just started competition shooting last fall (USPSA), those stages seemed pretty easy and, well, almost boring.

[Jim Watson]

. I think that is where the true value in competition is. If you can subconsciously use your firearm to make shots while your thinking about the problem your solving... that seems like a win to me. Performance under pressure while thinking about something else.

My thought exactly. And of the noted shooter who told his LE class, "I'm not here to teach you tactics or when to shoot, when not to shoot, I'm here to teach you HOW to shoot."

[Cory]

My thought exactly. And of the noted shooter who told his LE class, "I'm not here to teach you tactics or when to shoot, when not to shoot, I'm here to teach you HOW to shoot."

I just binged firearms nation podcast and heard that. I thought it was pretty spot on. Although i think it needs to be balanced with the other type of training.

-Cory

[Sterling Archer]

I was wondering about that. Do you think those were fairly typical IDPA stages? As a guy who has just started competition shooting last fall (USPSA), those stages seemed pretty easy and, well, almost boring.

It was a nice introductory IDPA match for me because it was such an easy layout. I watch a lot of match videos and was expecting something a bit more complex. It could have just been that specific club, it was my first time with them. I've connected with a club closer to me and will be shooting their upcoming June matches, hopefully they're more complicated. Unfortunately the only June USPSA match is when I'm scheduled to shoot a steel match with several friends. I'm hoping in July I can catch one, I've heard they're a lot higher round count.

[DAB]

generally speaking, local matches, with their limited budgets and time, don't have overly complicated stages. as you go up the ladder in Tier 2-4 matches (regional, state), the hosts like to show off for all the out of town guests, and have the time and budget to create more complicated stages. and when you get up to the national and worlds, some of the complication is actually taken back out so that the stages can run reliably for all 400+ shooters over 3 days. the Tier 2-5 matches have literally 3-9 months to plan and build their stages. local (Tier 1) matches are almost always set up the day of the match by the shooters.

simple does not always mean easy though.