Vicker's explanation of how to use a DA/SA

[breakingtime91]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivs-URdfWu4


If someone could Imbed, I am still inept. Interesting.

[Mr_White]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivs-URdfWu4


If someone could Imbed, I am still inept. Interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivs-URdfWu4

[Paul Sharp]

That's interesting. I flip and press so my trigger press is relatively the same for every press regardless of what I'm shooting.

[GJM]

Is it just me, or does it seem like The LAV gets an awful lot of muzzle rise, for shooting 9mm through a heavy, empty weight pistol?

16927

[GardoneVT]

Good advice all around. Its unfortunate most ordinary shooters won't run their DA/SA guns from the hammer down position.

[JV_]

Is it just me, or does it seem like The LAV gets an awful lot of muzzle rise, for shooting 9mm through a heavy, empty weight pistol?

You're missing one key variable, the ammo type.

[GunRacer]

If that's ammo related recoil, then someone better have slipped him 9mm Major. There's no way, even with +P. LAV needs to tighten up.

[breakingtime91]

This thread was not started to critique LAV or his ability to control recoil, take that shit else where. In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA

[Kyle Reese]

That's interesting. I flip and press so my trigger press is relatively the same for every press regardless of what I'm shooting.

Same here.

[warpedcamshaft]

I'd love to hear Earnest Langdon chime in... This video did not describe how I work a DA/SA trigger.

[Wobblie]

This thread was not started to critique LAV or his ability to control recoil, take that shit else where. In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA
Well put. Vickers isn't double tapping targets in a match, he's demonstrating for a camera.

[Paul Sharp]

... In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA

Not a DA/SA expert but I'm a diligent student of the gun. I flip and press as taught by Rogers, Claude Werner and DR Middlebrooks. DR is the one I learned it from in a hands on manner. I reinforced and/or deepened my understanding of the technique through conversations with guys like Claude and Les Pepperoni. I've wrote about that in previous posts on this forum and TPI. I find it interesting that when you watch the slo-mo of Vicker's trigger technique you see him flip his finger forward, then make contact with the trigger and begin the SA press. It's a stretch for me to say but here goes; I think mentally and verbally Larry is approaching the trigger in a way that's incongruent with his physical approach.

In other words;

1) Mentally/verbally - roll through, now reset, take up the slack and press.

2) Physically - Flip and press.

[warpedcamshaft]

Is it just me, or does it seem like The LAV gets an awful lot of muzzle rise, for shooting 9mm through a heavy, empty weight pistol?

16927

Not sure, but I doubt many have been filmed with a handgun fired at these frame-rates. I would crane-kick a nun to see what Ben Stoeger or Bob Vogel's recoil control REALLY looks like at this frame rate.

[breakingtime91]

Not a DA/SA expert but I'm a diligent student of the gun. I flip and press as taught by Rogers, Claude Werner and DR Middlebrooks. DR is the one I learned it from in a hands on manner. I reinforced and/or deepened my understanding of the technique through conversations with guys like Claude and Les Pepperoni. I've wrote about that in previous posts on this forum and TPI. I find it interesting that when you watch the slo-mo of Vicker's trigger technique you see him flip his finger forward, then make contact with the trigger and begin the SA press. It's a stretch for me to say but here goes; I think mentally and verbally Larry is approaching the trigger in a way that's incongruent with his physical approach.

In other words;

1) Mentally/verbally - roll through, now reset, take up the slack and press.

2) Physically - Flip and press.

I was hoping you would come back and chat more. Interesting. I guess as someone who put minimal effort into DA/SA I have a hard time understanding flip and press. You apply that to all pistols?

[Paltares8]

I'd also like to hear some other peoples' thoughts on this. I've been getting much better with my double action trigger work, but am always open to suggestions. It is getting more natural and requiring less, if any, conscious thought, but I'm also not nearly at the level of shooting I'd like to be.

And in the time it takes me to write that 3 people chime in....lol

[GunRacer]

This thread was not started to critique LAV or his ability to control recoil, take that shit else where. In the spirit of the thread I'm interested to hear other DA/SA experts opinion on this and how they run a DA/SA

Okay, okay :) Well, I wouldn't say I'm a DA/SA expert by any stretch, but at one point I made Prod GM with a CZ. I don't fundamentally disagree with anything he's teaching here. That's pretty much what I used to do-- treat the DA and SA differently. Because unless you're a hardcore presser, you have to. Changing gears takes discipline and practice, as anyone who's taken DA/SA seriously can attest.

[breakingtime91]

Okay, okay :) Well, I wouldn't say I'm a DA/SA expert by any stretch, but at one point I made Prod GM with a CZ. I don't fundamentally disagree with anything he's teaching here. That's pretty much what I used to do-- treat the DA and SA differently. Because unless you're a hardcore presser, you have to. Changing gears takes discipline and practice, as anyone who's taken DA/SA seriously can attest.

Cool, thanks for contributing. Do you think of the DA pull as a roll through also? I have heard someone, can't remember who, describe it as rowing a paddle.

[Paul Sharp]

I was hoping you would come back and chat more. Interesting. I guess as someone who put minimal effort into DA/SA I have a hard time understanding flip and press. You apply that to all pistols?

Yes sir, as well as shotguns, and rifles. This way I don't have to worry about learning the reset of each weapon. The trigger is simply a speed bump in between my finger and the front strap. I think that terminology came from one of the Barnhart Performance guys at an FBI range but it might well have come from Claude. If I think about it as simply a speed bump and my finger speed is regulated by the relationship of target-distance-difficulty it mentally frees me from a lot of limiting thought around triggers, particularly DA/SA triggers. I'm not sure if that's making any sense, I guess maybe a better way of putting it is my trigger finger movement from front of the trigger guard to front strap is smooth and undisturbed by any obstruction aka trigger found within the trigger guard.

[GunRacer]

Cool, thanks for contributing. Do you think of the DA pull as a roll through also? I have heard someone, can't remember who, describe it as rowing a paddle.
Heck, I don't know. Rowing a paddle sounds like a better description to me. I think we're getting caught up in analogies here. Does it really matter how it feels if you don't disturb the sights?

Anyways, how I would prep a DA trigger always depended more on the target than anything.

[45dotACP]

I just kinda roll through every trigger press. I'm no expert shooter and I definitely like Larry's suggested drill, but I disagree with his recommendation of how to best shoot a TDA gun.

Like Paul, I don't change the way I manipulate the trigger or even finger placement when I shoot a different gun. Very often I find myself shooting "socially" or that is to say, with friends or family. In those cases, I bring the "bag o'guns" and end up shooting a few different types, but the mechanics of the trigger press is always the same...press the trigger without disturbing the sights. It's a smooth, continuous press with minimal tension on the trigger finger and maximum grip with the weak hand.

That's why I don't like some​ pistols that make it hard for me to get my preferred trigger reach and why I modified my 1911 to use a short trigger. It's also why I like Beretta more than CZ for a DA pistol. I keep my technique so consistent to the point where I change guns to match with it rather than change technique to match my gun.

Some triggers are shorter, some are heavier...but it doesn't really make a difference when you boil it down to marksmanship fundamentals.

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[MGW]

I would love to flip and press. It seems to be the most natural way to shoot different pistols at speed. I end up getting a lot of involuntary movement from the pinky of my dominate hand resulting in low shots.

[GJM]

Many trigger discussions break down because of terminology and perception. People often use different words to describe the same thing, the same words to describe different things, and think they are doing one thing while doing something else.

His recoil control, though, distracts from his trigger control lesson.

[Luke]

Many trigger discussions break down because of terminology and perception. People often use different words to describe the same thing, the same words to describe different things, and think they are doing one thing while doing something else.

His recoil control, though, distracts from his trigger control lesson.


/thread

[GunRacer]

Many trigger discussions break down because of terminology and perception. People often use different words to describe the same thing, the same words to describe different things, and think they are doing one thing while doing something else.

His recoil control, though, distracts from his trigger control lesson.
Hear, hear!

But while we're discussing it.... Flip and press? Same thing as resetting in recoil, no? Coming off the trigger after the shot breaks and re-prepping. Just don't call it trigger slapping, please.

Unless I'm completely off about what y'all are talking about.

[breakingtime91]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Jay Cunningham]

Let's please leave moderation to Staff.

[Jay Cunningham]

A reminder also that this is a technical forum. Criticism of technique is valid. Criticism of personalities is not.

[breakingtime91]

Let's please leave moderation to Staff.

Can we split LAV and his recoil control into another thread then? If not, since it's my thread, can I request to have it closed?

[SamAdams]

Hmmm . . . this is the way I've always shot TDA. I didn't use any particular terminology to describe it though.

[GardoneVT]

I believe the LAV video's intended audience are shooters who aren't experienced with the DA/SA system.

[MSparks909]

Hmmm . . . this is the way I've always shot TDA. I didn't use any particular terminology to describe it though.

Sames.

For the "Flip and Press" guys, I always attributed that to coming off the trigger more than necessary, IE more than just to where the trigger resets.

[SamAdams]

I imagine maybe a lot of us who've shot TDA also have lots of DA revolver & 1911 trigger time ? Maybe that helps.

[Luke]

Haven't you made a commitment to nothing but glock for the next two years?


I think so many people get hung up on the TDA pistol trigger and make it more of an issue than it is.

I've got quite a few rounds through a TDA gun and my trigger press for everything is identical. No matter what type of trigger you have all you have to do is yank it to the rear without disturbing the sights. I think trying to remember and train two different techniques for the first shot and the rest is a mistake and a waste of mental energy.


This is obviously worth what you paid for it.

[SamAdams]

Years back I carried Sigs. I was going to continue with them, but their QC went to hell and they were a little heavier than what I liked (noticed it in the lower back). Made the switch to Glocks, but still enjoy hearing about other platforms though will stick with Glock for numerous practical reasons.

[guymontag]

Agree with GJM (everyone had their own description/perception) and Luke especially (everyone makes it more of an issue than it is). Load up a magazine and shoot the thing. Your sights and your shots will tell you what you need to know if you just shoot with awareness.

But then again that YouTube video wouldn't get a quarter of the views or discussion.

[GJM]

I think so many people get hung up on the TDA pistol trigger and make it more of an issue than it is.

I've got quite a few rounds through a TDA gun and my trigger press for everything is identical. No matter what type of trigger you have all you have to do is yank it to the rear without disturbing the sights. I think trying to remember and train two different techniques for the first shot and the rest is a mistake and a waste of mental energy.


This is obviously worth what you paid for it.

So I started thinking about how I press the trigger on a striker, DA/SA and LEM. I am about to fly a helicopter to Alaska this weekend, without all my stuff. I decide to go press the trigger on the PPQ, USP LEM, and DA/SA, and I think "crap," I don't have a DA/SA gun here to compare. Figure I must have a DA/SA here somewhere, am racking my brain for a few minutes, and then realize I am, at that moment, carrying a DA/SA Langdon Beretta mod 4.

Of course, the reason I forgot I was carrying a DA/SA, was that I don't think in terms of carrying a DA/SA, striker or LEM. I just think in terms of pressing the trigger as fast as I can, without disturbing the sights for the target I am trying to hit, and that doesn't change between striker, DA/SA or LEM.

And what is it that effects how fast you can press the trigger, without disturbing the sights? It is, of course, grip. The harder you hold the pistol, the more you can get away with, on the trigger. (The red dot pistol constantly reminds the shooter of this, because when the dot is wiggling more, you need to grip more, and miraculously, the dot settles down.) Discussing trigger press without discussing grip, is incomplete, because they are so interrelated.

Considering shooting low prob targets with one hand, using just two fingers to hold the pistol. You need a careful press, because you don't have your support hand to grip the crap out of the pistol. Contrast that with shooting a pistol in a ransom rest, where trigger press is pretty unimportant, because it won't cause the sights to move. Now consider all the variations between shooting with just one hand and a few fingers, and having a ransom rest grip like Robert Vogel. It is easy to see how trigger press discussions get so convoluted, and different people can believe different things.

So what does this have to do with the LAV video and recoil control? The same grip that allows you to press the trigger more aggressively also keeps the pistol flatter. Larry may well be describing trigger technique that works for his grip. I went and did screenshots from four recent videos, shooting a Walther Q5. Looking for the apex of my muzzle rise, in each instance, my slide was significantly flatter than Larry. Larry is a bigger guy than me, and I assume much stronger than me. However, my slide was flatter, despite the Q5 weighing substantially less than a Brig Tac.

Lots of words to say, that grip, recoil control and trigger press are related.

[Jared]

Someone, OP maybe, asked about the rowing thing with the DA press. Rowing, rolling, what you want to call it, is mostly an admonishment to not try to stage the DA press. Basically, press it all the way through in a smooth continuous motion, don't try to stop at the last bit before the hammer falls and then smash that last little bit "right now."

I've never been formally trained in the flip and press, but I'd bet it's pretty close to what I do. I don't try to ride the reset or any of that, just move my finger forward during recoil and start the next trigger press.

I think, and have said before, people get a little too hung up on DA/SA and turn it into a boogeyman that it's just not. Like mastery of any type of handgun or trigger system or just mastering shooting in general, it takes time and diligent practice.

[breakingtime91]

Can we split LAV and his recoil control into another thread then? If not, since it's my thread, can I request to have it closed?

So no?

[RJ]

I'm not GJM, by any stretch, but: same for me.

Which is weird, because I am so new in terms of shooting.

I only have a VP9 and a P30SK, but it seems to me I shoot them the same.

I mean, once I figured out the best way to hold two handed: I just grip the snot out of the gun, and try and press the trigger rapidly all the way to the rear without the sights moving.

I shoot "The Test" a lot, and don't believe I'm much different Shooting my SFA vs. my hammer.

I hadn't thought about LEM vs SFA quite like this before. So, good thread.

[JSGlock34]

I really enjoy shooting my Wilson Combat/Beretta Brigadier Tactical 92G, but its DA pull with a 13# mainspring and trigger job is a far cry from the beat-up M9 with a 20# mainspring that was my first DA experience. I agree that TDA isn't the voodoo that it is often made out to be, but I think both instruction of the technique and the equipment have come a long way.

[Lomshek]

More than the description that's easily misunderstood or misinterpreted Vickers showed not creeping along for the DA shot but just stroking through it. Saying "roll" or "flip" is an awful hard thing to grasp without being there and being shown the different methods side by side whatever they may be.

As far as recoil control maybe he's not getting any younger. I know the tendinitis I've been dealing with has made it much harder to hold the gun steady through the trigger press and my recoil control is a fraction of what it was 5 years ago.

[breakingtime91]

No. People, unless I missed it, aren't talking about Larry except in the context of his technique, which as Jay correctly noted is totally OK.

ok

[GardoneVT]

More than the description that's easily misunderstood or misinterpreted Vickers showed not creeping along for the DA shot but just stroking through it. Saying "roll" or "flip" is an awful hard thing to grasp without being there and being shown the different methods side by side whatever they may be.

As far as recoil control maybe he's not getting any younger. I know the tendinitis I've been dealing with has made it much harder to hold the gun steady through the trigger press and my recoil control is a fraction of what it was 5 years ago.

DA/SA is ultimately an enthusiast gun owner's trigger system. Most people I see at the shooting range who bring Berettas and Sigs run them in Single Action between 7-20 yards, have fun, then lock them up while carrying something striker fired. The reality of the trigger system is it takes effort to run well, and no instructor can say a magic incantation that will impart that kind of practice.

Compare that to a Glock or 1911 whose triggers have a much shorter learning curve.

[s0nspark]

I think so many people get hung up on the TDA pistol trigger and make it more of an issue than it is.


I so much agree with this....

[HCountyGuy]

DA/SA is ultimately an enthusiast gun owner's trigger system. Most people I see at the shooting range who bring Berettas and Sigs run them in Single Action between 7-20 yards, have fun, then lock them up while carrying something striker fired. The reality of the trigger system is it takes effort to run well, and no instructor can say a magic incantation that will impart that kind of practice.

Compare that to a Glock or 1911 whose triggers have a much shorter learning curve.

Very much this.

Anyone can pick up a striker-fired gun and become proficient to a mediocre degree with little effort expended.

TDA takes some work, but I believe benefits the user more if they can attain a respectable proficiency with it. Like Todd covered in his thread on DA/SA (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4212-General-Thoughts-on-DA-SA-Pistols), learning TDA well has the potential to make a shooter able to transition platforms more easily. I firmly believe if I didn't push myself to learn my TDA P229, I'd be a lesser pistol shooter in terms of ability.

[Trukinjp13]

Recoil control wise. Lav always seems to have quite a bit of flip in his vids.

I have learned after running a few different tda triggers that if the double action is smooth and the break is clean. I can actually shoot the da better then I can a 1911/striker gun. Does not have to be light. But for a fast da shot a lighter trigger really helps me not pull a shot. I like Lavs vids and like was mentioned I think he aims for a less knowledgeable group with his stuff sometimes. The best vid I have seen on tda shooting is Langdons. Very thorough on the prep, fire and follow up. It really does make a difference to actually train. Run strings of da/sa da/sa over and over.


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[Robinson]

I'll add this since I've noted several references to 1911s in the thread already. It's been said that the 1911 trigger is easier to master, but I think it's more accurate to say the 1911 trigger is simply lighter, has almost no take up, and takes a little less focus on pressing the trigger without disturbing the sights. But it brings with it a critical dependence on proper manipulation of the thumb safety. Once your mind tells your finger to press a 1911 trigger, the shot will probably be fired.

A couple years ago when I experimented with TDA guns, I came to like the double action first shot. I had done a lot of revolver shooting prior to that, so the heaviness was not an issue. What I liked about it was I could start the trigger press earlier, with more force being applied, and yet still have control over when the shot broke. The problem I had to overcome was not the double action first shot, it was being accurate with the single action second shot. I did not re-position my hands or trigger finger, but the two trigger presses were definitely registering differently in my brain. I had familiarity of the longer double action first shot from my years of revolver shooting, and familiarity with the single action second and subsequent shots from my years of 1911 shooting. In order to get good at the TDA pistol I would have to put them together and allow the transition between the two to become ingrained/second nature. It can certainly be done with practice.

[Robert Mitchum]

I just dry fire every day in DA with one of my HK 45's.
Not even going to try to sound like... I know what the #### I am talking about.
After watching ... Fear Not the Double Action Shot .. a few years ago and a ton of dry fire.
https://youtu.be/FsoX26OhDCY

20 rounds 6" Circle ..... 18 are in a 4" Circle ... 15 Rounds where fired in DA.... at 15 Yards
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HK 45 .. 5.. 7 ...10 & 15 Yards DA
16942



HK P30L ... 25 Yards 10 Rounds .. 5 Rounds DA .. 5 Rounds SA
7 out of 10 on a 3x5 Card
16943

There is nothing wrong with the stock DA/SA HK trigger ..

[BillSWPA]

The tendency of many shooters to shoot TDA guns only in single action mode is a concern I share with others in this thread. One advantage of a SAO, striker fired, or DAO gun is that having only one trigger pull means that trigger pull is always the one being practiced.

I also worry more about making sure the trigger hits the reset point on whatever platform I am shooting than in hitting the reset point exactly on a specific platform.



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[ReverendMeat]

I think Vickers is making it more complicated than it needs to be. Two different mindsets, roll and press, I don't know about that. How about same mindset, press and press? The principle is the same, save for the distance your trigger finger has to move. I agree with Trukinjp13 above, Langdon's video is much more helpful though it lacks the (admittedly spiffy) high-speed video.

Also still don't know what "flip" means in this context.

[MSparks909]

It's when you flip off the trigger (noticeably so) before your next press. I didn't mind Vicker's video and thought it communicated exactly what I do when I shoot TDA guns. The big caveat is I don't over analyze and think about it. I'm a Beretta guy but give me a Sig, a Glock and a 1911 and I can shoot each of them 90% as well as I can a Beretta. People make shooting wayyyy more complex than it needs to be. If you can track sights while you press a trigger then you can run just about anything at a decent level.

[45dotACP]

It's when you flip off the trigger (noticeably so) before your next press. I didn't mind Vicker's video and thought it communicated exactly what I do when I shoot TDA guns. The big caveat is I don't over analyze and think about it. I'm a Beretta guy but give me a Sig, a Glock and a 1911 and I can shoot each of them 90% as well as I can a Beretta. People make shooting wayyyy more complex than it needs to be. If you can track sights while you press a trigger then you can run just about anything at a decent level.
Funny you should mention that...I recall the section in Brian Enos' book that pertained to trigger control underwhelmed me because it pretty much just seemed to say "Watch the sights"...just not in so few words.


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[Clobbersaurus]

After thinking about this a bit, I believe LAV's video is an OK attempt at explaining the issue to novice shooters. Ernest Langdon did a much better job with his "fear not the double action shot" YouTube series.

After spending a long time on DA/SA guns, I think a good description for new shooters would be to let your sights/target dictate your trigger finger cadence. Grip the gun hard enough and the DA/SA transition becomes a non issue. There is no need to have two different types of trigger manipulation styles.

I try to think of it like a gas peddle in a car. Need to go fast - you stamp down on the gas. Need to navigate though a tight parking lot - you press down more gently.

Like the gas peddle, I press my trigger the same way every time, but the speed of that press is dictated by what I need to accomplish. High percent shots - I slap straight through the trigger. Low percent shots - I press straight through.

The only difference is cadence and that is dictated by what I need to see. Grip pressure is the one constant, and I think it's the key component to shooting DA/SA, and most striker fired guns, at a high level.

[Trukinjp13]

I am just happy that the tda is getting some love. It is nice to see it is not "dead". I truly enjoy shooting them and like that I have to spend some more time on the range to get better. I can shoot everything pretty good now. But that is because I have spent so much time on a tda system now.

One thin Lav said in the video that sort of makes sense is the sa vs da puts you from one end to the other. So if you can really get them both down and do not only ride the reset you can shoot anything well.

Master of one, master of none?

[GardoneVT]

After thinking about this a bit, I believe LAV's video is an OK attempt at explaining the issue to novice shooters. Ernest Langdon did a much better job with his "fear not the double action shot" YouTube series.

After spending a long time on DA/SA guns, I think a good description for new shooters would be to let your sights/target dictate your trigger finger cadence. Grip the gun hard enough and the DA/SA transition becomes a non issue. There is no need to have two different types of trigger manipulation styles.



Even for newbies who've probably never shot their pistol DA?

I agree that once someone gets to a certain skill level there is no "DA/SA Transition". You just run the gun.
But it's a tough & ego busting road to get there,especially when they can just go back to shooting a Glock or 1911 and feel like rockstars again. Note that while I've never personally observed someone at my range shooting their DA/SA from DA ,I have seen far too many cases of people carrying those guns cocked with the hammer back.

Here on P-F we probably see stuff like this and go "WTF? This isn't even an issue!" But for the guy and gal who shoot every six months and can't hit a backstop with their $1400 Wilson Combat Beretta,it IS a big deal- especially when we live in the Striker Fired Era where few instructors are familiar with the DA/SA system.

[Cory]

it IS a big deal- especially when we live in the Striker Fired Era where few instructors are familiar with the DA/SA system.

I disagree. If you're speaking of newbies especially. There are plenty of instructors who are familiar with the DA/SA system. The M9 has been a service pistol for a lot of veterans over the last 16 years of war, and veterans make up a large portion of firearms instructors. While those instructors may not be able to mentor people into GM status with a TDA they can certainly teach new shooters how to handle the firearm safely and get on paper at 7 yards.

-Cory

[Clobbersaurus]

Even for newbies who've probably never shot their pistol DA?

I agree that once someone gets to a certain skill level there is no "DA/SA Transition". You just run the gun.
But it's a tough & ego busting road to get there,especially when they can just go back to shooting a Glock or 1911 and feel like rockstars again. Note that while I've never personally observed someone at my range shooting their DA/SA from DA ,I have seen far too many cases of people carrying those guns cocked with the hammer back.

Here on P-F we probably see stuff like this and go "WTF? This isn't even an issue!" But for the guy and gal who shoot every six months and can't hit a backstop with their $1400 Wilson Combat Beretta,it IS a big deal- especially when we live in the Striker Fired Era where few instructors are familiar with the DA/SA system.

I think the vast majority of novice shooters, from the time they first pick up a pistol, are not taught to grip the gun hard enough. Considering the vast majority of new shooters are "taught" by other shooters who have no clue what they are doing, that's not surprising.

Barring a huge physical impairment (very small hands, physical infirmity, etc), A good instructor can teach that the DA/SA transition is a nonissue in a very short period of time, even to the most novice of shooters. Proper instruction in the key.

[farscott]

How does one know that the grip is hard enough? If I really bear down, my grip will show tremors. For a two-handed grip, I am trying to use my strong hand to push the gun outward and my weak hand to pull the gun towards me. My grip on the gun itself is firm, but I do not know how much grip pressure is too much until I see the gun move.

[Clobbersaurus]

How does one know that the grip is hard enough? If I really bear down, my grip will show tremors. For a two-handed grip, I am trying to use my strong hand to push the gun outward and my weak hand to pull the gun towards me. My grip on the gun itself is firm, but I do not know how much grip pressure is too much until I see the gun move.

I like to explain it as gripping the gun hard enough until you see tremors then back off just enough for the tremors to go away. I don't push pull. I clamp down on the gun trying to squeeze my palms together through the gun. I grip as hard as I can with my left and just hard enough with my right to still allow me to manipulate the trigger cleanly. I'm no expert, but that's what I do. As you get more accustomed to gripping hard on the gun it becomes second nature and you rarely have to think about it other than training tune ups in focussed dry practice or live fire.

A great way to teach this to new shooters is to shake their hand using the same amount of pressure you use on the gun. A very good instructor I have trained with a bunch illustrates this by walking down the line and shaking everyone's support hand with the same pressure he uses on the gun. Most new shooters are shocked by the amount of pressure he applies. It's a good way to illustrate the point and set the stage for his trigger press discussion.

[Cory]

I think a lot of folks over think it. I'm not an expert marksmen by any means... but I'm working on it. I think it boils down to "Hold the pistol in place, keep the sights straight, and run the trigger without messing up the positioning".

Rob Leatham seems to know what he is doing. He pretty much says hold on the pistol and pull the trigger without messing up the sights. People use works like squeeze, press, pull, roll, slap, jerk, 40% this hand, 60% that hand, xyz, lmnop... I think when a lot of folks stop thinking about little nuance and start thinking about keeping the sights on target and pulling the trigger they will shoot better. When you find something isn't going right, then pause and find out why. It's likely that your disturbing the sight. Just hold as hard as you can without messing up the sights when you pull the trigger. That pretty much applies to every action type and manual of arms. TDA, Striker, SA, whatever. It's easy to say and hard to master... but I think it's the real solution.

-Cory

[farscott]

I like to explain it as gripping the gun hard enough until you see tremors then back off just enough for the tremors to go away. I don't push pull. I clamp down on the gun trying to squeeze my palms together through the gun. I grip as hard as I can with my left and just hard enough with my right to still allow me to manipulate the trigger cleanly. I'm no expert, but that's what I do. As you get more accustomed to gripping hard on the gun it becomes second nature and you rarely have to think about it other than training tune ups in focussed dry practice or live fire.

A great way to teach this to new shooters is to shake their hand using the same amount of pressure you use on the gun. A very good instructor I have trained with a bunch illustrates this by walking down the line and shaking everyone's support hand with the same pressure he uses on the gun. Most new shooters are shocked by the amount of pressure he applies. It's a good way to illustrate the point and set the stage for his trigger press discussion.

Thanks for the explanation. I am going to try the squeeze the palms through the gun and to eliminate push-pull.

[beenalongtime]

I have read something in this thread that makes me realize I don't know what an abbreviation means. This will seem like a stupid question to a lot of you, but, there are those new here, who haven't yet found a/the abbreviation explanation section (couldn't find it).
So what is a LEM trigger then? I thought it stood for (L)aw (E)nforcement (M)odel and was more about the gun in general (extra magazines etc)?
Won't learn if I don't ask.
Thanks

[BobLoblaw]

I agree with Clobb. Telling myself how to press DA vs SA is like saying "left, right, left, right" to make sure I walk correctly. The force on the trigger is the same but the size of your target determines how fast you apply said force.

[RJ]

I have read something in this thread that makes me realize I don't know what an abbreviation means. This will seem like a stupid question to a lot of you, but, there are those new here, who haven't yet found a/the abbreviation explanation section (couldn't find it).
So what is a LEM trigger then? I thought it stood for (L)aw (E)nforcement (M)odel and was more about the gun in general (extra magazines etc)?
Won't learn if I don't ask.
Thanks

Welcome to p-f. The LEM is HK's Double Action Only trigger, available on several hammer-fired guns:

For example, from HK USA for the P30SK:

"...And like its larger frame counterparts, the P30SK is available in multiple trigger firing modes including HK’s enhanced double action only “Law Enforcement Modification (LEM).” For the P30SK, the LEM trigger is configured with a “light strike V1” setup — requiring approximately 5.4 pounds-force to pull the trigger."

http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/p30sk/

Probably the best discussion of the LEM is here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&highlight=Street+trigger

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not being a DA/SA transition type, I'm wondering how much this is all academic under pretty low stress range practice. There are two trigger pull motor sequence which you have to launch out of your motor memory. You have to 'recall' them (not consciously) to execute them. But complex motor programs can be incorrectly recalled under stress. I'd be interested to see if someone in a real critical incident does this? Have someone run 50 yards at speed (not me!), have a targets that takes two shots quickly - . You get to the stop line, have to fire to avoid 'being shot' yourself. Do folks actually use two methods or just pull the trigger in the same manner. Or, you have to use only one hand as we 'disable' one under some stress and speed. Do these nuances go away?

So you see someone make a furtive movement, come up with a gun, etc. I think we see that many shots are made with one hand, while moving, backing up, etc. - your motor systems are going to bother with this?

Just a thought. It is an argument for one trigger pull and that starts the whole DA/SA fight again. Anecdotely - folks forget to take off the safety on 1911s in a match even though they have practiced that into the ground. I commented once that I saw it when folks didn't have their classic draw to the get gun into action. That breaks the motor memory recall. So why expect this sequence to activate if everything else is going to hell?

Personally, we had a stage where we had to shoot a target 'gangster' style one handed (for grins). The first shot from my 1911 really hurt. I can shoot one handed no problem. But with the different angle, something grip wise screwed up. Ouch! My conscious mind said - grip, Idiot - and the rest of the targets no problem.

[GardoneVT]

Not being a DA/SA transition type, I'm wondering how much this is all academic under pretty low stress range practice.

Once one gets to a certain skill level with a DA/SA pistol,running it is cognitively identical to a pistol with a singular trigger system. I don't shoot my Beretta with the distinction of "DA" vs "SA" - I just run the gun.

While there may be some quick studies who grasp that skill level instantly ,I assuredly was not one of these folks.It took time for me to get to that level of comfort. When I dry fire it's a personal goal to get as many DA repetitions as I do SA. Building skill with a DA pistol is not difficult, but it does take some more planning then just picking up the gun and shooting.


Frankly -not to be Mr Pessimism - LAVs video is basically preaching to the choir. 99% of ordinary shooters will either carry a striker fired option, a 1911, or holster a DA/SA pistol cocked before carrying hammer down. Berettas and Sigs are basically range toys ; the serious use gun today is something square with a plastic frame and striker fired action.

[StraitR]

Clearly, everyone is in agreement that pulling the trigger without disrupting the sights is the answer and having a strong grip is a huge benefit. So, it's definitely simple, but the rub is that it's not easy. If it were, there would be no reason for PF and everyone would shoot like TGO and Robert Vogel.

And while I think grip strength certainly plays a role, I don't think it's fair to say you can't talk about trigger pull without talking about grip strength. That may be the case with two handed shooting, but not necessarily the case with SHO/WHO. If you're Magnus Samuelsson or some young strong dude that laughs at COC #3, then you need to know absolutely nothing about the technical aspects of pulling the trigger with a two hand grip. For the rest of us mortals, and anyone that doesn't exclusively shoot two handed, the pursuit of a proper trigger pull that helps discharge the gun with minimal movement of the sights is often a lifetime journey.

ETA: For better or worse, I also treat every trigger the same, and make no distinction between DA/SA, SAO, or SFA. I believe this was the source of my frustration and quick abandonment of the LEM.

[GJM]

I would say grip technique, which incorporates your strength, how your technique, and your willingness/awareness of deploying technique and strength.

[LSP552]

Not being a DA/SA transition type, I'm wondering how much this is all academic under pretty low stress range practice. There are two trigger pull motor sequence which you have to launch out of your motor memory. You have to 'recall' them (not consciously) to execute them. But complex motor programs can be incorrectly recalled under stress. I'd be interested to see if someone in a real critical incident does this? Have someone run 50 yards at speed (not me!), have a targets that takes two shots quickly - . You get to the stop line, have to fire to avoid 'being shot' yourself. Do folks actually use two methods or just pull the trigger in the same manner. Or, you have to use only one hand as we 'disable' one under some stress and speed. Do these nuances go away?

So you see someone make a furtive movement, come up with a gun, etc. I think we see that many shots are made with one hand, while moving, backing up, etc. - your motor systems are going to bother with this?

Just a thought. It is an argument for one trigger pull and that starts the whole DA/SA fight again. Anecdotely - folks forget to take off the safety on 1911s in a match even though they have practiced that into the ground. I commented once that I saw it when folks didn't have their classic draw to the get gun into action. That breaks the motor memory recall. So why expect this sequence to activate if everything else is going to hell?

Personally, we had a stage where we had to shoot a target 'gangster' style one handed (for grins). The first shot from my 1911 really hurt. I can shoot one handed no problem. But with the different angle, something grip wise screwed up. Ouch! My conscious mind said - grip, Idiot - and the rest of the targets no problem.


There have been so many people put in the dirt with DA/SA guns that there is no question they can be applied under stress. There have also been a ton of screw ups and poor shooting with every action type ever made. In the end, it comes down to training and the individual's ability to perform under stress.

[Peally]

I'm not an expert but I always just pulled through it like any other trigger pull, it was just heavier. YMMV

[StraitR]

I would say grip technique, which incorporates your strength, how your technique, and your willingness/awareness of deploying technique and strength.

I agree, but the discussion of grip as it relates to effecting trigger pull, has been about strength. You made a lot of good points earlier that resonate with me, but I don't believe any of it was about technique. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.

I think there is a synergy, a give and take, between technique and strength. The more limited one is in strength, the more proficient they need to be with technique. In this aspect, there is much crossover between trigger pull and grip. This was the basis for my example using Magnus.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My point was whether the nuances described in the video were actually maintained under stress. Obviously people can use the guns successfully. I think Peally and others have it down - pull the trigger and have a good grip.

[Doc_Glock]

I keep my technique so consistent to the point where I change guns to match with it rather than change technique to match my gun.

Some triggers are shorter, some are heavier...but it doesn't really make a difference when you boil it down to marksmanship fundamentals.

Do you switch guns to keep the start of trigger reach the same, or the end when the trigger is all the way back?

[45dotACP]

Do you switch guns to keep the start of trigger reach the same, or the end when the trigger is all the way back?
The initial placement. Trigger throw doesn't mean much to me tbh. Actually...I'm fairly insensitive to triggers. I shoot similar size groups with a Smith model 64 as a Glock 19 or Beretta 92.

1911s I shoot better because I do most of my shooting with one, but that's a function of more practice with one.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Surf]

I was a heavy Sig Sauer P226 in .40 guy long before Glock and I took a look at old video just to confirm my thoughts. It was video from over a decade ago and just pre-youtube for me, when I was using video purely for self diagnostics, so it was an interesting trip down memory lane. Hundreds of thousands of rounds through my primary training P226 from that era.

Shot difficulty and sights always dictated cadence or trigger pull. I will note that I have always stated that I have more than one trigger pull type and more than one presentation to the target and I still do to this day. So it is no big secret that with a DA/SA pistol my pull types vary ever so slightly from DA to SA. I reset under recoil, with a reset, and re-prep to the wall with a Glock trigger all during recoil. Of course when your running .20 splits or less, it is virtually impossible to notice and looks like you are just rowing the trigger, but it is still happening to a degree. Obviously slower cadence shots and it is much more clear.

Now on most of my 1911/2011 pistols that have little overall trigger movement especially back to reset, I flip and press it to avoid missing reset.

Now I am not saying that I agree with anyone discussed here and perhaps we are getting hung up on what definitions actually mean to us, so I will just describe as best I can what I do. I think much also has to do with the pull weight on the DA and I guess the SA pull weight matters but perhaps to a much lesser extent.

Now if we go back to the P226 as my example of one, on that pistol I will definitely pull the DA trigger shot more like a heavier pull on a revolver. Not meaning that I use more finger, but the pull is a bit different on the DA than on the SA. Of course if I am at 3-5 yards and I have a big target and do a fast draw to one shot it isn't as noticeable, but I am definitely rolling into the trigger and the hammer is moving as I am decelerating in the last 2 inches or so. Might be similar as a "prepping the trigger" movement on a Glock as example, but it is in my mind uniquely different enough that I can make note of it. On video it is virtually impossible to notice, unless if you look at very high speed video and are into nuance. Would someone else call it different? Maybe not, but for myself it physically feels different with an ever so slightly different technique.

Of course if your brutish about your trigger mash and do one thing all the time and that works for you, keep on doing it. Physical ability, inability, limitations due to body structure, dexterity or injury play a role in everything. If your objective and performance get you the desired outcome, I have no problems there and hard to argue anyone's technique.

I had a trigger pull video from the past that talked about the Glock trigger. Some more narrow minded took that as how I might manipulate all triggers, or that I meant that everyone should do it that way only, when that is not true. The factors above often determine what works for each of us individually. Hell you cannot determine difference in my technique, unless if you closely analyze, up close, high speed video and even then it is hard to distinguish. So many of us might even be doing similar things but don't really know it or our verbal description of what we perceive may not match how someone else may chose to word things as a descriptor.

On a side bar, I will also throw out there, that our agencies performance on qualifications and hit percentages in actual incidents have improved notably. Now that is definitely attributed to high quality training finally received by the Officers during the transition training but you can definitely attribute that to a change in trigger types and mostly the lack of two different weights. Is that the problem of the platform? Some might argue yes, some might say it is the user, but I will simply say that it does require more dedicated effort on behalf of the user on a DA/SA but then you get a typical and in PF fashion a huge thread drift on the benefit of a heavier first pull to "get off the trigger" as necessary in a "combative situation", or greater chances of an ND, but I am not going to go there. ;)

[GJM]

I agree, but the discussion of grip as it relates to effecting trigger pull, has been about strength. You made a lot of good points earlier that resonate with me, but I don't believe any of it was about technique. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.

I think there is a synergy, a give and take, between technique and strength. The more limited one is in strength, the more proficient they need to be with technique. In this aspect, there is much crossover between trigger pull and grip. This was the basis for my example using Magnus.

"Grip" or "grip strength" is just shorthand for the application of technique and available strength.

Look at Larry's gun in recoil:

16952

Now, look at my muzzle. I am a stick insect compared to Larry, who probably has 75 pounds on me, and considerably more strength.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_1849_zpsnhipeisd.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_1849_zpsnhipeisd.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_1845_zpsnscoqkku.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_1845_zpsnscoqkku.jpeg.html)

Somehow, through stance, technique, or willingness to apply a high percentage of available strength, I am managing to exert more control over the pistol. It may be that for the speed Larry wants to shoot, he doesn't think his muzzle control is a limiting factor. I see it differently, though, as the same technique that provides optimal recoil control, also allows you to be more aggressive (read faster) on the trigger, for the same level of accuracy, or more accuracy for the same speed with less grip.

In terms of the question of grip vs trigger, I think there are infinite combinations, based on your individual trigger technique and grip technique/strength. So, the advice to press the trigger without disturbing the sights off the target you are aiming at, may be the best advice, as there is no one size fits all solution to how you do that. People need to do the work to figure that out for themselves. BTW, a pistol with a red dot is a major learning aid in figuring this out, as you see what you are doing with the trigger by watching the red dot throughout the press. (Certainly you can do this with irons, but it is just much easier to interpret with the dot.)

[LittleLebowski]

I would not say Vickers has recoil management issues based off of one still frame from a video. Larry knows how to shoot well and handguns are his favorite.

[GJM]

I would not say Vickers has recoil management issues based off of one still frame from a video. Larry knows how to shoot well and handguns are his favorite.

I think that is a fair statement, that one screenshot in not necessarily representative. Here is another screenshot from his recent Wilson EDC X9 video. It is quite possible he was not focusing on grip technique during this filming, but the muzzle sure climbs higher than I experienced when I had the X9 for a few weeks.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_1852_zps6g5zlxsa.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_1852_zps6g5zlxsa.jpeg.html)

[JSGlock34]

Doesn't seem like he experiences nearly as much muzzle rise with a .45 here...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XzSYeQUU8w&app=desktop

[GardoneVT]

I think that is a fair statement, that one screenshot in not necessarily representative. Here is another screenshot from his recent Wilson EDC X9 video. It is quite possible he was not focusing on grip technique during this filming, but the muzzle sure climbs higher than I experienced when I had the X9 for a few weeks.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_1852_zps6g5zlxsa.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_1852_zps6g5zlxsa.jpeg.html)

Can we evaluate a shooters technique based off of apparent "muzzle rise"?

I say that because hand size will impact how a pistol behaves,especially if the gun's wider in the grip. LAV has smaller hands by his own admission,which means he'll grip a 1911 better then a double stack gun all things held constant.

It also means a video of me shooting a Beretta will look better then his because with larger hands it doesn't look "muzzle flippyy" in my hands,even though LAV would crush me on the line.

[jeep45238]

I've got a really simple brain, so my thought process on the transition is simple:

It's a double action pull with a really short reset. In a classic Sig design, a slightly stiff but smooth with near 1911 trigger on the reset with srt sear.

Anybody incorporating reset in their technique is doing a variation, regardless most trigger systems- glock is long then short, same with smith striker, etc.

That's how I approach the pistols - length of first pull is different, and when I have a click I know the mechanism is good to go. Usually this is far before my sights are, but that's me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nwhpfan]

I would crane-kick a nun to see what Ben Stoeger or Bob Vogel's recoil control REALLY looks like at this frame rate.

I'd venture to guess it's about half and pretty flat.... But those guys are consciously trying to control recoil whereas in the example LAV is making a video. I'm pretty sure LAV knows how to control recoil just fine...as if I'm not mistaken, besides his other exploits, he finished top 10 at USPSA Nationals once.

FWIW, roll and press makes sense to me. The DA is very long and at about 13 pounds you're not exactly going to slap through that for double A's. Roll through as quickly as you can without disrupting the sights. As for SA, some like to slack and press, or prep and press....I don't think about slack that much I just ignore it.

[Jared]

Back a couple years ago a friend/shooting buddy of mine decided to ditch his XD after shooting with me for a day. Decided he wanted a Beretta like what I shot. I told him then that a gun switch would not fix anything unless he did some serious practice, and then he asked my favorite question, "how should I practice?"

He went ahead and got the Beretta, and I gave him a D spring. I told him then, start with the good old white wall drill, and experiment until you find the grip/ finger placement/ grip strength combo that lets you work that DA trigger without disturbing the sights and then burn that feeling in. Check it live fire by shooting DA/SA pairs on NRA B8 bulls starting at 5 yards and working back to as far as you possibly can.

He did this, pretty religiously in the beginning since he had "excited about new gun syndrome." Today, he's not Langdon, but he hits more 8" plates at 20 yards with the DA shot than he misses by far, and on a timer. Granted, I told him to do exactly what I did when I first got my Beretta, so I may be biased, but I've found that it's a decent practice program for someone new to DA/SA.

One thing be didn't do that I think is optional but helpful is get a DA 22 revolver and shoot a ton of DA shots that way.

[Paul Sharp]

Re; grip pressure and it's affect on trigger control. I really like Keith Sanderson's holding drills. DR taught a form of these, and I spent quite bit of time practicing these. Keith Sanderson is the only person I know of that has put together a decent tutorial on the drills and made it available online. These drills will help you build the sport specific strength needed to lock the pistol down and keep it locked down despite the heavier initial trigger pull. He mentions doing the drills with one and two handed holds. I have done these drills WHO, SHO, and freestyle.


https://youtu.be/FfARgCqWCvQ

[ShooterM9]

I just read this entire thread and really appreciated all the on-point comments.

Here's my question:
I use HK DA/SA handguns and like to carry them "cocked and locked." Is this "wrong" or ... let me put it another way ... why wouldn't you carry it cocked and locked, with the safety on, of course?

[David S.]

After thinking about this a bit, I believe LAV's video is an OK attempt at explaining the issue to novice shooters. Ernest Langdon did a much better job with his "fear not the double action shot" YouTube series. .

+1. I saw absolutely nothing noteworthy about this video. It's the same ol', same ol', mediocre description on how to manage the trigger system. Same ol' tired overemphasis on how difficult it is to learn two trigger systems.

Yawn.

On the other hand, it is nice to see arguably the biggest name in tactical training giving DA/SA some love.

[GJM]

I just read this entire thread and really appreciated all the on-point comments.

Here's my question:
I use HK DA/SA handguns and like to carry them "cocked and locked." Is this "wrong" or ... let me put it another way ... why wouldn't you carry it cocked and locked, with the safety on, of course?

I have found the thumb safety on the P30 and HK USP pistols not nearly as ergonomic as the thumb safety on a 1911. Trying to reliably hit the HK thumb safety compromised my draw, and on the USP for example, I converted to V3 which was decock only, no thumb safety. My draw is faster and more consistent on the HK starting in DA than SA with the thumb safety.

[M2CattleCo]

The only reason I would consider not to carry it cocked and locked is if safety manipulation was an issue.

Otherwise you're at an advantage.

[s0nspark]

I just read this entire thread and really appreciated all the on-point comments.

Here's my question:
I use HK DA/SA handguns and like to carry them "cocked and locked." Is this "wrong" or ... let me put it another way ... why wouldn't you carry it cocked and locked, with the safety on, of course?

Nothing "wrong" with that if that is your preference and you train that way.

Personally, I feel there is more of an advantage to the initial DA pull than there is in "avoiding" it with cocked and locked carry, so... I would say you are missing out on one of the gun's great features. ;-)

As mentioned all through this thread, though, TDA guns require a certain commitment to master and whether the juice is worth the squeeze is really something only you can answer. For me it definitely is.

[ShooterM9]

I feel there is more of an advantage to the initial DA pull than there is in "avoiding" it with cocked and locked carry...

Can you elaborate on what these advantages are?

[s0nspark]

Can you elaborate on what these advantages are?

Well, some of these are personal opinions and observations but here you go...

1. A longer, heavier first pull provides a useful "stress buffer" - this, to me, is the big one. HUGE. :)
2. Decocking and then thumbing the hammer when reholstering provides an additional level of safety. (Important to me as an AIWB guy.)
3. Carrying a TDA gun decocked makes it a point and shoot device, like an easier to use SA gun (or a "safer" SFA gun) but with the above benefits.
4. Once mastered, a DA trigger pull allows you to be more aggressive on the trigger on the press out ... without compromising safety.
5. I shoot TDA guns better, faster. I am more accurate with the first shot and faster with the followups.

If I were to carry something cocked and locked I would be VERY particular about how the safety operated. How ergonomic is it? How much force does it take to disengage and engage? Does it physically lock the slide? A light SA pull is not something I take, uh, lightly :)

[ShooterM9]

Thanks, good food for thought.

[breakingtime91]

Haven't you made a commitment to nothing but glock for the next two years?


I think so many people get hung up on the TDA pistol trigger and make it more of an issue than it is.

I've got quite a few rounds through a TDA gun and my trigger press for everything is identical. No matter what type of trigger you have all you have to do is yank it to the rear without disturbing the sights. I think trying to remember and train two different techniques for the first shot and the rest is a mistake and a waste of mental energy.


This is obviously worth what you paid for it.

lol just noticed the beginning of this post. Go fuck yourself Luke. If you have anything to say in response please pm or continue to disrupt my thread with your BFF GJM.

[Ed L]

Ooops, posted this in response to something a few pages ago before I read mods warning not to discuss Larry's recoil.

[RJ]

Can you elaborate on what these advantages are?

FWIW I got quite a bit out of the discussion that ensued here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25459-What-are-the-BENEFITS-of-Two-Different-Trigger-Pulls

[Jay Cunningham]

Ooops, posted this in response to something a few pages ago before I read mods warning not to discuss Larry's recoil.

I'm pretty sure we said:


Criticism of technique is valid. Criticism of personalities is not.

[ShooterM9]

FWIW I got quite a bit out of the discussion that ensued here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25459-What-are-the-BENEFITS-of-Two-Different-Trigger-Pulls

Thanks for that link, this discussion has motivated me to really try to master the DA trigger pull. I've just been using it as a sort of "fail safe" when carrying, but when training, etc. I carry cocked and locked with the weapon in SA on safe.

[Hambo]

Back to DA/SA. As long as you don't go full SA retard you'll be fine. Incorporate both pulls into every practice: single DA shots, DA-SA double taps at speed, failure drills, and DA shots on very small dots. I'd do all of this if I shot a 1911 or a Glock.

[GardoneVT]

Back to DA/SA. As long as you don't go full SA retard you'll be fine. Incorporate both pulls into every practice: single DA shots, DA-SA double taps at speed, failure drills, and DA shots on very small dots. I'd do all of this if I shot a 1911 or a Glock.

I'd actually disagree with this approach, slightly.

Initially a newcomer to DA/SA should shoot some range sessions entirely DA. lt'll take longer,but by shooting say a 100 round plus training session entirely DA the shooter will realize the benefits of a habitually engrained decocking procedure and consistent DA practice. Otherwise the only time they'd get DA practice is at the start of each drill on the first round,which automatically biases the session to a majority of SA trigger pulls.

[Hambo]

I'd actually disagree with this approach, slightly.

Initially a newcomer to DA/SA should shoot some range sessions entirely DA. lt'll take longer,but by shooting say a 100 round plus training session entirely DA the shooter will realize the benefits of a habitually engrained decocking procedure and consistent DA practice. Otherwise the only time they'd get DA practice is at the start of each drill on the first round,which automatically biases the session to a majority of SA trigger pulls.

That's OK, I disagree with you. I'd recommend a new DA/SA shooter dryfire extensively in DA, and work on DA and transition to SA in live fire.

[45dotACP]

I think DA/SA practice should be guided by whether you suck at one....

Always throwing the DA first shot? Practice it. Always throwing the first SA shot? Practice the transition.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[M2CattleCo]

I always looked at it like you're guaranteed to have to use the DA pull, and a cold shot at that.

Either get proficient with it, or pick any other gun that doesn't have the ridiculous 'feature'.

[breakingtime91]

That's OK, I disagree with you. I'd recommend a new DA/SA shooter dryfire extensively in DA, and work on DA and transition to SA in live fire.

I think that's good advice. Would something like 3x5 work at 7 yards be a good place to start? As someone said, I'm shooting a striker for a couple years, but I am interested in trying a DA/SA after that

[LSP552]

I think that's good advice. Would something like 3x5 work at 7 yards be a good place to start? As someone said, I'm shooting a striker for a couple years, but I am interested in trying a DA/SA after that

I think a 3x5 would be fine. The thing to look for is two separate groups, one in DA and one in SA. If you see two groups, I'd then shoot some groups all DA and all SA to see whats going on. Believe it or not, a lot of people have more of an issue with the first SA shot than the DA. Shooting more than 2 rounds helps to diagnose this.

[breakingtime91]

I think a 3x5 would be fine. The thing to look for is two separate groups, one in DA and one in SA. If you see two groups, I'd then shoot some groups all DA and all SA to see whats going on. Believe it or not, a lot of people have more of an issue with the first SA shot than the DA. Shooting more than 2 rounds helps to diagnose this.

I shot a beretta 92 for a year or so and always had more issues with the SA than the DA. I think that's why LAVs video interested me. I had never really thought of it as two different presses. Apparently there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think it would also be interesting to see the differences in when people feel the need to decock. I have heard off target, gun gets decocked. In other circles I have heard decock when the fight is done. Interesting side of having to run a gun that is a little more complicated, makes it fun I think.

[Hambo]

I think a 3x5 would be fine. The thing to look for is two separate groups, one in DA and one in SA. If you see two groups, I'd then shoot some groups all DA and all SA to see whats going on. Believe it or not, a lot of people have more of an issue with the first SA shot than the DA. Shooting more than 2 rounds helps to diagnose this.

Good advice.

To answer breakingtime91, Vicker's advice is sound. Start where you have to and decrease target size, increase distance, add time pressure.

I use these http://adaptivedefenseconcepts.com/scoped-rifle-diagnostics/ for single DA shots at 5 yards (sometimes less when I accidentally print them too small) and Dot Torture at 7. I also print slightly reduced FAST targets for failure drills. A failure drill covers several things: Cold DA shot and quick SA follow up, then acquire a different target for a more precise SA shot.

[Jared]

I think that's good advice. Would something like 3x5 work at 7 yards be a good place to start? As someone said, I'm shooting a striker for a couple years, but I am interested in trying a DA/SA after that

3x5 card or NRA B8 bull would be my pick. If you can't reliably get hits at 7, maybe move up to 5. Plenty of white wall work dry as well. 15 minutes of good white wall work a night and 100 rounds of DA/SA pairs once a week should pay big dividends in a fairly short time period. That's pretty much what I did. I found it fairly easy to get the hang of, but I did have a good bit of a DA revolver background before the Beretta got acquired.

As for decocking, I make it an on range and dry fire habit that I decock when I come back in to ready position, or if I move, unless I'm shooting on the move.

[Jared]

Good advice.

To answer breakingtime91, Vicker's advice is sound. Start where you have to and decrease target size, increase distance, add time pressure.

I use these http://adaptivedefenseconcepts.com/scoped-rifle-diagnostics/ for single DA shots at 5 yards (sometimes less when I accidentally print them too small) and Dot Torture at 7. I also print slightly reduced FAST targets for failure drills. A failure drill covers several things: Cold DA shot and quick SA follow up, then acquire a different target for a more precise SA shot.

Big yes on the failure drills. Actually the whole Gabe White standards are a pretty good thing to run with a DA/SA once you get used to the way it works. I'm also a fan of box brills using a B8 and a 3x5 card and setting the targets at say 7 & 10 yards and maybe staggering the height a foot or so too.

[YVK]

The thing to look for is two separate groups, one in DA and one in SA.

I get a different POI between DA and SA fairly regularly. As long as the variance is within my limits of tolerance, I don't worry about this.


As far as video in question is concerned, I am glad that LAV made one. He has been quite vocal about inferiority of a dual trigger pull system comparing to a single trigger pull systems for some time now. I wonder if the video indicates a change of hearts or something like that. I personally disagree with treating trigger pulls differently but if his way helps others to get on with it, that's great.
For me the biggest difficulty of a DA to SA transition has been finding a single trigger finger placement that works for both pulls. This is the first criterion that I now use for DA/SA pistol evaluation.

[Ed L]

I wrote:

Ooops, posted this in response to something a few pages ago before I read mods warning not to discuss Larry's recoil.

Jay Cunningham wrote:
I'm pretty sure we said:

Criticism of technique is valid. Criticism of personalities is not.

Actually, I edited my post after reading further into the thread where Tom Jones' wrote:


Again this thread isn't about Larry. If you want to talk about DA/SA technique, carry on. If you really want to discuss Larry's recoil management, I can give arrange for you guys to exchange email addresses.

[MSparks909]

For me the biggest difficulty of a DA to SA transition has been finding a single trigger finger placement that works for both pulls. This is the first criterion that I now use for DA/SA pistol evaluation.

I personally use the first distal joint on my trigger finger. Helps me leverage through the DA smoother and I'm less likely to jerk the trigger press using that method.

[DocSabo40]

... Berettas and Sigs are basically range toys ; the serious use gun today is something square with a plastic frame and striker fired action.

Blasphemy!

On topic: I did get one gold nugget from his video: the baseball swing analogy. I think that's a good way of describing the speed of the trigger press.

[MSparks909]

My first DA shot speed varies; on a wide open A-Zone @ 7 yards I'm gonna roll through that press VERY quickly. But on a 50 yard A-Zone target I'm gonna be a bit more deliberate. I do agree that it's more important to do one smooth constant press rather than staging.

[s0nspark]

Re; grip pressure and it's affect on trigger control. I really like Keith Sanderson's holding drills. DR taught a form of these, and I spent quite bit of time practicing these. Keith Sanderson is the only person I know of that has put together a decent tutorial on the drills and made it available online. These drills will help you build the sport specific strength needed to lock the pistol down and keep it locked down despite the heavier initial trigger pull. He mentions doing the drills with one and two handed holds. I have done these drills WHO, SHO, and freestyle.


https://youtu.be/FfARgCqWCvQ

Thanks much for posting that, Paul! I had not seen it ... great stuff!

[farscott]

Re; grip pressure and it's affect on trigger control. I really like Keith Sanderson's holding drills. DR taught a form of these, and I spent quite bit of time practicing these. Keith Sanderson is the only person I know of that has put together a decent tutorial on the drills and made it available online. These drills will help you build the sport specific strength needed to lock the pistol down and keep it locked down despite the heavier initial trigger pull. He mentions doing the drills with one and two handed holds. I have done these drills WHO, SHO, and freestyle.


https://youtu.be/FfARgCqWCvQ

Thank you for suggesting the video explaining the drills. Quite helpful.

[YVK]

I personally use the first distal joint on my trigger finger. Helps me leverage through the DA smoother and I'm less likely to jerk the trigger press using that method.

That works well for most shooters in DA, myself included, but I can't shoot SA with my distal joint worth a damn.

[hufnagel]

Re; grip pressure and it's affect on trigger control. I really like Keith Sanderson's holding drills. DR taught a form of these, and I spent quite bit of time practicing these. Keith Sanderson is the only person I know of that has put together a decent tutorial on the drills and made it available online. These drills will help you build the sport specific strength needed to lock the pistol down and keep it locked down despite the heavier initial trigger pull. He mentions doing the drills with one and two handed holds. I have done these drills WHO, SHO, and freestyle.


https://youtu.be/FfARgCqWCvQ

The Hold Drill idea sounds really interesting. Started practicing that tonight (with only 30-on/60-off second times) and within 3 sets i'm already shaking. Let's see what happens over a couple days of this.

[Paul Sharp]

The Hold Drill idea sounds really interesting. Started practicing that tonight (with only 30-on/60-off second times) and within 3 sets i'm already shaking. Let's see what happens over a couple days of this.

If you're anything like me by day 5 or 6 it will get noticeably easier to lock the pistol down for longer periods of time without the shakes. I think it's the SAID principle, (specific adaptations to imposed demands), at work. Prior to doing these and a few others I had never really looked at shooting as simply an athletic activity just like any other athletic activity. The same principles that apply to most of the sports world also apply to shooting. It's really a fascinating discussion and one I can get way off into the weeds on particularly when discussing designing sport specific drills. I'm a big proponent of a drilling, micro and macro drills to develop each link in the skill chain. With the theory that our skill set is only as strong as the weakest link, we focus on and design drills to strengthen those weak links using micro drills then work them back into the overall skillset with macro drills. Sorry about the thread derail, it's something I've put a lot of time and effort into.

[hufnagel]

If you're anything like me by day 5 or 6 it will get noticeably easier to lock the pistol down for longer periods of time without the shakes. I think it's the SAID principle, (specific adaptations to imposed demands), at work. Prior to doing these and a few others I had never really looked at shooting as simply an athletic activity just like any other athletic activity. The same principles that apply to most of the sports world also apply to shooting. It's really a fascinating discussion and one I can get way off into the weeds on particularly when discussing designing sport specific drills. I'm a big proponent of a drilling, micro and macro drills to develop each link in the skill chain. With the theory that our skill set is only as strong as the weakest link, we focus on and design drills to strengthen those weak links using micro drills then work them back into the overall skillset with macro drills. Sorry about the thread derail, it's something I've put a lot of time and effort into.

If you feel like writing about it, I'd love to read it. It sounds like a thread/discussion that would a be net positive. There have been certain (gym) exercises I've noticed that seem to have a positive impact on my shooting, and an expanse on that subject from someone who's put work into focusing on specific areas can only be a good thing.

[That Guy]

I think it would also be interesting to see the differences in when people feel the need to decock. I have heard off target, gun gets decocked. In other circles I have heard decock when the fight is done.

I think (not that I'm any kind of an expert...) that the"decock when you're done" thing comes more from trying to avoid the DA shot, which comes from a lack of proficiency in it - or in competition, avoiding spending the milliseconds shooting DA shots might cost you. It also makes decocking a conscious decision one has to make. Not to mention the whole running around with a cocked and unlocked gun, an idea I'm personally not a big fan of. Whereas decocking when you dismount the gun can be trained into a learned reflex, so it happens automatically without having to conciously think about it.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

Tried the hold drill today. I'm not completely out of shape, so it wasn't too shaky, but I can see how for some situations, it might be really a good thing to be able to hold your pistol on target for an extended amount of time- like, a cop holding a guy at gunpoint, but he hasn't *quite* crossed the line to needing to get shot, he's just flirting with it really hard. Be good to know you can hold the gun on target, locked in and ready, for an extended period.

And that's not to mention the potential benefit for shooting groups.

[Chance]

. It's really a fascinating discussion and one I can get way off into the weeds on particularly when discussing designing sport specific drills.

I'd be interested in a discussion of this. I recently picked up Pat McNamara's 'Combat Strength Training,' and am looking forward to getting to work with it.

With regards to trigger control: after training with John McPhee, and seeing the incredible amount of minutia he can pull from a Coach's Eye video, I'm pretty well convinced none of us really knows what we're actually​ doing under stress. This has put me in the camp of, "not over thinking it." Keep the sights on the target through the whole range of motion, and that's the only thing you need to worry about.

[hufnagel]

Tried the hold drill today. I'm not completely out of shape, so it wasn't too shaky, but I can see how for some situations, it might be really a good thing to be able to hold your pistol on target for an extended amount of time- like, a cop holding a guy at gunpoint, but he hasn't *quite* crossed the line to needing to get shot, he's just flirting with it really hard. Be good to know you can hold the gun on target, locked in and ready, for an extended period.

And that's not to mention the potential benefit for shooting groups.

One thing I've noticed after doing it for only 3 days, is my sights are coming into alignment more quickly and automatically, during the presentation phase. I'm not hunting for my front sight nearly as much, after a couple reps.

[s0nspark]

One thing I've noticed after doing it for only 3 days, is my sights are coming into alignment more quickly and automatically, during the presentation phase. I'm not hunting for my front sight nearly as much, after a couple reps.

I'm seeing the same, plus I'm already feeling comfortable applying more pressure on the gun.

Win. Win. :)

[45dotACP]

The "Hold Drill" was something I used a lot of as a rimfire rifle shooter in high school. I was never a terrible shooter, but I had never got to the point where I could clean a NRA 50ft small bore target. After getting pissed off that it was such a soul crushing junk punch, I finally did it, mostly on account of going into my parents basement and holding up my rifle (a Mossberg 42) for as long as I could.

I took home trophies that year.

The hold drill is still a big part of rifle dry fire for me. I probably should add it to pistol.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Robinson]

I shot a beretta 92 for a year or so and always had more issues with the SA than the DA. I think that's why LAVs video interested me. I had never really thought of it as two different presses. Apparently there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think it would also be interesting to see the differences in when people feel the need to decock. I have heard off target, gun gets decocked. In other circles I have heard decock when the fight is done. Interesting side of having to run a gun that is a little more complicated, makes it fun I think.

I had the same issue when I learned TDA a couple years back -- the DA first shot wasn't giving me trouble, it was the SA second shot. But I don't think the problem is a big issue and is overcome with practice.

As for decocking, my view is pretty much the same as with the thumb safety on a 1911 or an AR -- safety is engaged whenever the gun is off target. With the Beretta 92 series, I like the guns but I have trouble manipulating the safety/decocker because of short thumbs. So I got in the habit of using my support hand thumb to decock. The Sig system works better for me. I too would like to hear from more TDA users on this issue.

[DallasBronco]

Except it is absolutely NOT double action.

LEM stands for Law Enforcement Modification.



The normal LEM trigger pull is single action, but with a trigger that moves fully forward and an external hammer that moves (and which should not to be confused with the internal hammer that actually does all the work and is fully cocked).

The LEM has a DA pull. Rack the slide on your LEM and pull the trigger. That's the normal "single action" pull. Pull the trigger again without racking the slide. That's the double action pull.
Thanks for sharing that. In all the reading I have done about LEM, I have never seen any mention of a two-piece hammer as ToddG explained. That was an eye-opener and your additions really cleared up some misperceptions for me. That will probably help my shooting with it now that I better understand what is going on with the fire control mechanism.

[DallasBronco]

For me the biggest difficulty of a DA to SA transition has been finding a single trigger finger placement that works for both pulls. This is the first criterion that I now use for DA/SA pistol evaluation.
This has been an issue I have been trying to work through with a P30SK V3. I didn't realize it was an issue until I saw Ernest Langdon mention in an interview that one of the things he liked about the PX4 was that the trigger reset to near the same point in DA or SA. It was then that I realized that the P30SK offsets significantly to the rear in SA and was giving me fits with my long fingers to figure out finger placement on the short reach of the SA trigger. I have decided that this particular pistol is going to be purely for training, as I think that if I can overcome that issue with this gun, I will be gold with most others that I shoot.

[ca survivor]

WOW, so good to know that I have been doing it right all these years.

[John Hearne]

I was asked about learning to shoot a Beretta that was mandated by an agency, this is what I wrote:


First, don't get psyched out by all of the hype about how hard it is and OMG "two trigger pulls!" Google and watch Ernie Langdon shoot. Here is his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/eglangdon Watch frequently whenever you want to offer some bleating excuse associated with the gun.

Second, make peace with the DA pull. This will require a lot of dry practice which with a Beretta will mean he'll need a dummy round that cushions the firing pin. IIRC, LAPD and Larry Mudgett recommend the A-Zoom Snap Cap. USE THEM OR YOU WILL BREAK THE GUN!

Get several fired 9mm cases. Put one of them on the front sight. Learn to manipulate the trigger in such a manner that the case does not fall off when the hammer falls. Learn that so well that you can do it twenty times in a row. Then do it twenty times in a row at a brisk pace. Don't forget one-handed shooting. Put the case on the front sight and press the trigger with just one hand then switch hands. Don't forget to be able to do it when the hammer is back, with both or either hand.

Third, philosophically, don't treat it as two distinct trigger pulls. Treat it like gun with one heavy, long trigger pull and a very short, light reset. Learn to "roll" the DA shot. As the gun goes out, the hammer should roll back. Imagine that you have a string tied to your chest and the trigger. It should be impossible to extend the gun (when intending to shoot it) without the hammer moving backwards.

Fourth, get used to decocking. This is where the greatest likelihood of a mistake lies. Fire a pair - decock. Fire a failure - decock. Every string should end with decocking so that it happens automatically and the trigger finger always hits the resistance that it has been taught to expect. Assuming the M9 variant, make sure that the decock procedure involves a return to fire - don't get caught with your dingus down.

Fifth, you can probably find on the internet, the DA/SA version of Dot Torture. Todd Greene has a 50 round version, I have a 30 round version. Practice this every time you go to the range until the trigger is mastered. FWIW, I like the 30 round version because it saves ammo.

Sixth, make sure that he works with whatever duty rig he is issued. Again, dry practice is your friend. If he wants to whine about retention devices refer to point one and Master Langdon.

If I had to speculate, they won't have take-home guns but will draw pool guns. Suck it up and buy a training gun that is a mirror copy of the duty gun. Practice regularly with that. Andy Brown did just this very thing and he was able to acquit himself quite well with the Beretta. The audio quality SUCKS but it is worth the strain to listen for inspiration: http://proarmspodcast.com/033-the-fairchild-incident-andy-brown/