"I would buy a modern Webley"...

[RevolverRob]

I've heard that before, hell, I've probably said it before. How about a 7-Shot, .357 Magnum, Modern "Webley"? How about we get some British chaps to build it, too? Call it the Anderson Wheeler MK VII, perhaps? https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/a-new-british-made-handgun-the-return-of-the-webley-shot-show-2016/

16808

Now, I know what you want to know. How much does it cost?

Base Models start at $10,000 (US) they're planning to make about 50 of them a year.

Frankly, I'm envious. You see the way Anderson Wheeler is making guns is precisely how I would make guns. If I were going to build guns, I'd do runs of updated historically significant models in low volume with insane execution, like this. Essentially bespoke pattern guns. I need to get my investments shored up properly and raise some capital and just buy Anderson Wheeler (ha, I wish!).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Indians make one:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nirbheek-Indias-first-gun-for-women/articleshow/28607959.cms

It has an attractive box. Wonder if they know that enthusiasts would buy them in the USA?

[1slow]

I would like a cartridge Lemat on a Webley top break. Imagine the joy of a full moon clip with 9 .44 and a 20-28 guage buckshot in the center.

Also, Ross Seyfried did an article on a Bland Webley Pryse that shot .612'' 440 gr bullets at something like 600-800 fps. About the size of a 4'' S&W 29.

[Jim Watson]

I read that Taurus could not get a "sporting purposes" decision for a 28 ga Super Judge.
Doubt they would be accommodating for a breechloading LeMat "grapeshot" barrel.

H. Bowen built a .577 Ruger and kept it because he could not get it delisted as a Destructive Device.
http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/articles/British_Big_Bores.pdf

[Totem Polar]

16808




https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/df/0c/e3/df0ce33233b52045f5448befe955c4f0.jpg

[1slow]

I read that Taurus could not get a "sporting purposes" decision for a 28 ga Super Judge.
Doubt they would be accommodating for a breechloading LeMat "grapeshot" barrel.

H. Bowen built a .577 Ruger and kept it because he could not get it delisted as a Destructive Device.
http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/news/articles/British_Big_Bores.pdf

I talked with Hamilton about that at the time, trying to figure how many people would be in the market for one.

[ReverendMeat]

Damn, that is gorgeous.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Very cool.


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[BillSWPA]

Neat revolver, but I think I'd be more likely to part with $ for the Indian version.

[Stephanie B]

Neat revolver, but I think I'd be more likely to part with $ for the Indian version.

Only about two grand apiece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbheek) for a .32.

[45dotACP]

Damn...that and the Bowen gat. Holy crap those are some fine pistols.

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[BillSWPA]

Only about two grand apiece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbheek) for a .32.

Yes, that is definitely pricey. Comparing this to the gun in the original post, $10,000 is completely outside of anything I am likely to ever be able to justify spending on a gun. $2,000 is comparable to multiple popular rifles as well as multiple 1911's (although if I were to part with $2,000, I'd rather have a good 1911).

I do hope the Indian gun at least sells well on India.



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[JonInWA]

Not to diminish the efforts of the magnificent Anderson Wheeler recreation, but it's always been a bit of a question in my mind my why William Ruger, with his penchant for applying modern manufacturing techniques and materials to ostensibly classic firearms never recreated a Ruger Webley. I still think today that it would be a superb revolver, both operationally and aesthetically, and a very effective one for both general use and IDPA competition.

Best, Jon

[Chuck Haggard]

Between loving the looks and history of the Webley, and my first handgun being an H&R model 999, I have a thing for top break revolvers. Would love to have one again.

[Hambo]

Leave it to the Brits. Why not a Modern Mk VI in .45acp using clips?

[Willard]

I was keenly interested when Detonics planned to release a top break in the 1980s

http://www.mythicarmory.com/detonics-modular-top-break.html

[Eastex]

Since Indian revolvers were brought up, there's also the Nidar which by Googles math comes in at 8.8 ounces for a 8 shot .22lr. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/Countrys-first-lightest-revolver-Nidar-to-be-launched-tomorrow/articleshow/50805519.cmshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/be4baa319803068ccd5b01f2ff622415.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170526/bdc7aa3f498b6764486998b26091ab7b.jpg


"Hell bent on being intentionally anachronistic"

[Erik]

So, why would I buy a $10,000 reproduction Webley or a $2,000 Indian Webley-like revolver instead of just buying a Webley if I really wanted one? They seem to be pretty readily available.

[Wobblie]

Between loving the looks and history of the Webley, and my first handgun being an H&R model 999, I have a thing for top break revolvers. Would love to have one again.

My LGS has two for sale; an unmolested .455 with canvas holster and the smaller .38 S&W. If I could swing it I'd buy both because..old British war movies.

[Malamute]

How much are they asking on either?

[RevolverRob]

So, why would I buy a $10,000 reproduction

It's not something you buy in lieu of a Webley. It's something you buy, because you already have a stack of Webleys and a Webley-Fosbery in your collection. And it's also not a "reproduction" Webley, it is a seriously updated, bespoke gun.

Put another way, you can ask, "Why would I spend $125,000 on a custom Porsche 911. When an off-the-lot Volkswagen Beetle will get me from Point A to Point B just fine? Afterall, Porsches are just fancy VWs..." That is simply not the point.

[Erik]

I think it's more like why would I pay $125,000 for a custom, new production beetle when I can buy an unmolested original, but thank you. I do hear your point.

[Lex Luthier]

It's not something you buy in lieu of a Webley. It's something you buy, because you already have a stack of Webleys and a Webley-Fosbery in your collection. And it's also not a "reproduction" Webley, it is a seriously updated, bespoke gun.

Put another way, you can ask, "Why would I spend $125,000 on a custom Porsche 911. When an off-the-lot Volkswagen Beetle will get me from Point A to Point B just fine? Afterall, Porsches are just fancy VWs..." That is simply not the point.

The concept of bespoke goods seem to confound a lot of otherwise very intelligent, rational people.

*Disclosure: I make bespoke items. It is a sometimes weird place to be as a business.*

If I were farther down Maslow's Pyramid, I'd hit that Anderson Wheeler like the fist of an angry god.
(and also make sure they did a better job of fitting the front of the grip panels.)

[Wobblie]

How much are they asking on either?

I can't recall exactly but around $1400 for the .455 and close to $900 for the .38 S&W.

[Malamute]

I can't recall exactly but around $1400 for the .455 and close to $900 for the .38 S&W.

Thanks. That's quite a lot out of my range of consideration. I'm more in the lower end worn finish/shooter grade range.

[Stephanie B]

Thanks. That's quite a lot out of my range of consideration. I'm more in the lower end worn finish/shooter grade range.

You can get a shaved .455 Webley for a lot less. But then you're going to pretty much be stuck with either handloading .45s or buying an adapter ring so that you can shoot .455.

[Wobblie]

Thanks. That's quite a lot out of my range of consideration. I'm more in the lower end worn finish/shooter grade range.
These are both very nice guns. I don't know enough about them to know if they are priced appropriately. The store has a refinished S&W model 1917 that I want even more. I may have to unretire myself and get a job.

[Malamute]

You can get a shaved .455 Webley for a lot less. But then you're going to pretty much be stuck with either handloading .45s or buying an adapter ring so that you can shoot .455.

Yes, I watch them now and then on GB.

I could be quite content loading Webley level loads in AR cases. Would only require cases and appropriate diameter bullets, I already have the 45 auto dies, and I guess bullet molds if I wanted to start casting again. The WWII DA only 38s may be the value for a basic shooter though.

[Stephanie B]

I could be quite content loading Webley level loads in AR cases. Would only require cases and appropriate diameter bullets, I already have the 45 auto dies, and I guess bullet molds if I wanted to start casting again. The WWII DA only 38s may be the value for a basic shooter though.

I looked into it a while back. If my memory is correct, there was an issue with the chamber throats being tighter than the bore. So Webley bullets have an open base, so that bass will expand and grip the rifling.

There was a one-bullet mould that would throw the right bullets, but it cost something north of $100. The bullets are available as components from somewhere, but a few years ago, they cost about $35 for 100.

Maybe I was overthinking it, but it seems like too much of a hassle.

[ragnar_d]

I would like a cartridge Lemat on a Webley top break. Imagine the joy of a full moon clip with 9 .44 and a 20-28 guage buckshot in the center.
Don't threaten me with a good time!

[Malamute]

I looked into it a while back. If my memory is correct, there was an issue with the chamber throats being tighter than the bore. So Webley bullets have an open base, so that bass will expand and grip the rifling.

There was a one-bullet mould that would throw the right bullets, but it cost something north of $100. The bullets are available as components from somewhere, but a few years ago, they cost about $35 for 100.

Maybe I was overthinking it, but it seems like too much of a hassle.

Ive looked into it also. I was doing so today again. The throats are slightly undersized, but soft lead bullets seem to shoot well. One discussion Ive come across a couple times was this

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230257-***WARNING-for-shaved-or-cut-Webleys-in-45-ACP-Auto-Rim*****

The throat size may be variable in individual guns also. I wouldn't be above reaming them to groove diameter, it certainly wouldn't be a detriment to the guns well being, and making up accurate, low pressure loads would be simpler for myself and anyone down the line of history. The people talking about shooting them though don't seem to feel its too big of a deal, so long as you aren't shooting jacketed bullets or heavy loads. One guy said his throats were .450-.451", and groove diameter was .453". Not too bad, some Colt revolvers were smaller throats compared to groove. ETA: Someone mentioned that the Remington swaged hollow base 45 Colt bullets shot quite well in his Webley.

Patrick Kelley did a "from the box to the match" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQq80s8Z8Q) vid on a 455 Webley not too long ago. He was shooting 185 gr 45 auto match ammo, its all he had available. He also got pretty darned good accuracy, and had a blast at the match.

[KhanRad]

$10k for a Webley copy in an modern caliber? Personally, I'd rather own one in .455 Webley as the design is a nostalgia piece. Reloading dies and components are still around if you cast your own bullets. I would consider $10k if they made a quality copy of the Webley semi auto revolver.

[JonInWA]

Personally, I'd rather have one, updated with modern steels and with decent (but still period-appropriate) sights (like the concept of the Harrison Retro rear sight for 1911s) in .45 ACP, .357 magnum/.38 Special, or .44 Special in an appropriate barrel length for viable use both as a defensive weapon and in IDPA SSR. With a decent speedloader, I can see this as being a very fast (well, fast by revolver standards) set-up.

Best, Jon

[BigT]

I can't recall exactly but around $1400 for the .455 and close to $900 for the .38 S&W.
That would probably buy 10 of each here and you would have change for a couple of gins

[KhanRad]

Personally, I'd rather have one, updated with modern steels and with decent (but still period-appropriate) sights (like the concept of the Harrison Retro rear sight for 1911s) in .45 ACP, .357 magnum/.38 Special, or .44 Special in an appropriate barrel length for viable use both as a defensive weapon and in IDPA SSR. With a decent speedloader, I can see this as being a very fast (well, fast by revolver standards) set-up.

Best, Jon

Maybe in lower recoil calibers like .38spl or .44spl, but the break open designs of the 19th century were weak by comparison to 20th century frame designs. I know a number of Webley collectors who have had bought Webleys with .45acp conversions and with less than 1000rds through the pistol it suffered cracked frames or broken pivot pins. These were MK6s too with the more durable metallurgy and design. I'm sure a modern recreating will be even more durable, but it looks as though the manufacturer is still adhering to the traditional design which will have limitations.

[BillSWPA]

Just watched the first part of Patrick Kelley's video. Pat is clearly a very good shooter, but even he seemed to struggle a bit at least for a small perentage of shots with what he described as a 20 lb. trigger pull. He was definitely taking the time he needed for each shot, deliberately squeezing the trigger.

I guess if one can do well with a 20 lb. century-old DA trigger design, one can shoot just about anything well.

I hope the .32 lady's gun made in India was able to achieve a much better trigger pull or it will be a complete failure for its intended purpose.

[JonInWA]

Maybe in lower recoil calibers like .38spl or .44spl, but the break open designs of the 19th century were weak by comparison to 20th century frame designs. I know a number of Webley collectors who have had bought Webleys with .45acp conversions and with less than 1000rds through the pistol it suffered cracked frames or broken pivot pins. These were MK6s too with the more durable metallurgy and design. I'm sure a modern recreating will be even more durable, but it looks as though the manufacturer is still adhering to the traditional design which will have limitations.

I tend to agree-unless Ruger has something truly entertaining but still at east moderately cost-effective up their sleeve, such as using 465 Carpenter steel...

Best, Jon

[Malamute]

Maybe in lower recoil calibers like .38spl or .44spl, but the break open designs of the 19th century were weak by comparison to 20th century frame designs. I know a number of Webley collectors who have had bought Webleys with .45acp conversions and with less than 1000rds through the pistol it suffered cracked frames or broken pivot pins. These were MK6s too with the more durable metallurgy and design. I'm sure a modern recreating will be even more durable, but it looks as though the manufacturer is still adhering to the traditional design which will have limitations.


I think its entirely possible to make a reasonably durable top break gun of modern materials and design, but like the $10K gun, theres a limited market, and setup cost will probably be fairly high. hey may indeed have to charge that much to make it practical for the limited market for a smaller gunmaker to make a profit. A Ruger or whatever large maker could build a less refined but durable gun, but their setup cost is going to be high, and again, its a limited market. The Italian single action top break copies of Smith & Wessons (https://www.uberti-usa.com/top-break-revolver)aren't cheap. So far they seem ok for the moderate loads they are commonly shot with, but I have no idea how truly durable they are. At $1100-$1500 for an Italian copy of an old Smith, it may scratch the itch for many. If I had loose gun money laying around Id likely try one for fun.

[KhanRad]

I tend to agree-unless Ruger has something truly entertaining but still at east moderately cost-effective up their sleeve, such as using 465 Carpenter steel...

Best, Jon

It's possible that a good 2nd generation particle steel might make up for the weakness of a break-open design, but crucible smelting process used in the MK VI metallurgy was the best in the world at the time. The post Victorian steel produced for the military was exported the US and even Germany because it was so good.

[1986s4]

I've owned 2 Webleys; one is .38 S&W and a MkIV in .45 acp, birds head grip. I loved them both and always wished there were modern versions. I really wish Webley as founded was still in business. I would like one in 9mm for moon clip use. As a 9mm it could be overbuilt without being over large and keep the short OAL of the original.

[JonInWA]

I've owned 2 Webleys; one is .38 S&W and a MkIV in .45 acp, birds head grip. I loved them both and always wished there were modern versions. I really wish Webley as founded was still in business. I would like one in 9mm for moon clip use. As a 9mm it could be overbuilt without being over large and keep the short OAL of the original.

That makes a huge amount of sense. A 9mm Webley (or, for that matter, a GP100...) married to modern 9mm cartridge technological advances could make for a formidable revolver.

A high quality, break-top revolver reloadable via sturdy moonclips or Comp III-type speedloaders in the hands of a Jerry Miculek could be very, very interesting.

Even Nyeti/Dagga Boy might want one. And it would certainly hip enough for Tam.

Best, Jon

[Stephanie B]

It might work. Since the day of the service revolver has been over for a good while, if they were to make these, 99% of them would never see a 1,000 rounds. .38 or .44 Special would be good. (Or .41 Special.)

[Wobblie]

I can't recall exactly but around $1400 for the .455 and close to $900 for the .38 S&W.

Correction: The .38 is $549

[1986s4]

It might work. Since the day of the service revolver has been over for a good while, if they were to make these, 99% of them would never see a 1,000 rounds. .38 or .44 Special would be good. (Or .41 Special.)

Can we get S&W or Ruger to chamber the 686 or GP 100 in .41 special? Maybe a .40 special/rimmed so we can use the same bullets. Maybe I'm dreaming, the hey day of the revolver is long past.

[Lex Luthier]

Can we get S&W or Ruger to chamber the 686 or GP 100 in .41 special? Maybe a .40 special/rimmed so we can use the same bullets. Maybe I'm dreaming, the hey day of the revolver is long past.

As an aside, I would love to see Ruger and Smith & Wesson submit 150 different models of revolver *each* to the California DOJ for addition to "The List". A .40 Special Rimmed would be a great part of that.

[Stephanie B]

Would a .41 special be dimensionally similar enough to something else that there be a risk of people blowing up 19 century guns with it?

[Flamingo]

Well Starline has the brass for the .41 Special...

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/41-Special/

[zeleny]

Uwe Janz claimed to be taking orders on a magnumized, metric top break Webley (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/01/31/shot-show-2017-finds/) at IWA 2017. However, the only importable post-1898 top break Webley is the Fosbery (https://goo.gl/photos/WExUKnqZ3JgXaWG59). Century Arms used to bugger them with a hammer block safety (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?452265-nother-Webley-Whatzzit), but no such feature is evident on the Janz replica. I lucked out on a Mark V (https://goo.gl/photos/hXy34wbomHEu4noj8), but normally they are verboten pursuant to a drop test ATF instituted in 1986.

[JonInWA]

Uwe Janz claimed to be taking orders on a magnumized, metric top break Webley (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/01/31/shot-show-2017-finds/) at IWA 2017. However, the only importable post-1898 top break Webley is the Fosbery (https://goo.gl/photos/WExUKnqZ3JgXaWG59). Century Arms used to bugger them with a hammer block safety (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?452265-nother-Webley-Whatzzit), but no such feature is evident on the Janz replica. I lucked out on a Mark V (https://goo.gl/photos/hXy34wbomHEu4noj8), but normally they are verboten pursuant to a drop test ATF instituted in 1986.

Thanks, Michael-your contributions are always welcomed for their detail and knowledge.

Best, Jon