Grip Vs Finger Placement

[SC_Dave]

I added this video to another thread recently but decided to bring it out into it's own thread. Not that it is a great video but from some of the reading I've been doing here I'm wrestling with this. I have big ass hands (XXL glove). I shoot a G19. Unless I am missing something I cannot do the things with my hands that apparently everyone else can and it make no sense to me. Am I reading too much into "more trigger finger" and "don't let you finger touch the trigger guard"? My hands are apparently freakishly stiff because they won't bend like others do. This shit is keeping me awake a night! :rolleyes:
SCD


https://youtu.be/z7VPNUhyRxY

[Clobbersaurus]

Trying to conform your grip to "universally accepted" best practices is like trying to force people to shoot with both eyes open. It works for a lot of people, but not all. People are different and their body's will only allow them to do what they can do.

I have a large hands with long fingers and as a result, I have a hard time getting support hand contact on the left rear grip panel. My fingers are so long that my right hand fingers wrap most of the left grip panel. To grip the gun the "right" way feels like it forces my hands wide, so I try to get more contact on the gun at the top of the rear grip panel by rotating my support hand forward and wrapping my left index finger high under the trigger guard.

You gotta do what works with your body type. As long as you can control recoil and move the trigger without disturbing the sights, use what works.

[octagon]

After seeing several different high level shooters and shooters of various abilities shoot using different grips and different amounts of trigger finger or angle and placement I have come to find that there is no one true anything when it comes to shooting. There are some general guidelines that work for many people but when you introduce a person with larger or smaller hands,fingers that are longer or thicker you may have to deviate from "the normal" or "best". Some examples are the Pat Mak video and advice to use more finger on the trigger. This is the opposite of what Robert Vogel or Jerry Barnhardt use. Grip is the same thing with many recommending and using support hand finger pressed against strong hand fingers high against the trigger guard. Again Vogel moves his fingers of his support hand further forward and not against the strong hand fingers. Barnhardt used his support index finger on the front of the trigger guard. It is often suggested to have the heals of the hand pressed together. Vogel doesn't use this grip but other high level shooters do. It may sound like a cop out that it depends or maybe it really does "just depend" I'm going with it just depends and experiment starting with good basics and adjust from there. It always means high grip on the backstrap, getting the gun fairly lined up with the forearm, high grip with the fingers toward the trigger guard and good contact with both hands.

Find any person shooting one way and there is another using a different grip or trigger finger placement and also shooting well.

[SC_Dave]

Trying to conform your grip to "universally accepted" best practices is like trying to force people to shoot with both eyes open. It works for a lot of people, but not all. People are different and their body's will only allow them to do what they can do.

I have a large hands with long fingers and as a result, I have a hard time getting support hand contact on the left rear grip panel. My fingers are so long that my right hand fingers wrap most of the left grip panel. To grip the gun the "right" way feels like it forces my hands wide, so I try to get more contact on the gun at the top of the rear grip panel by rotating my support hand forward and wrapping my left index finger high under the trigger guard.

You gotta do what works with your body type. As long as you can control recoil and move the trigger without disturbing the sights, use what works.


After seeing several different high level shooters and shooters of various abilities shoot using different grips and different amounts of trigger finger or angle and placement I have come to find that there is no one true anything when it comes to shooting. There are some general guidelines that work for many people but when you introduce a person with larger or smaller hands,fingers that are longer or thicker you may have to deviate from "the normal" or "best". Some examples are the Pat Mak video and advice to use more finger on the trigger. This is the opposite of what Robert Vogel or Jerry Barnhardt use. Grip is the same thing with many recommending and using support hand finger pressed against strong hand fingers high against the trigger guard. Again Vogel moves his fingers of his support hand further forward and not against the strong hand fingers. Barnhardt used his support index finger on the front of the trigger guard. It is often suggested to have the heals of the hand pressed together. Vogel doesn't use this grip but other high level shooters do. It may sound like a cop out that it depends or maybe it really does "just depend" I'm going with it just depends and experiment starting with good basics and adjust from there. It always means high grip on the backstrap, getting the gun fairly lined up with the forearm, high grip with the fingers toward the trigger guard and good contact with both hands.

Find any person shooting one way and there is another using a different grip or trigger finger placement and also shooting well.

All true. I guess I'm just trying to fix an issue using tried and true methods. Obviously as you seen in the video they won't work for me so I guess I'll figure out what will work for ME.
SCD

[Jay Cunningham]

In order to help someone become a good shooter, one needs to first be a good troubleshooter.

Troubleshooting requires both "knowledge of the system" and the understanding that troubleshooting itself has a methodology.

Memorizing a bunch of things and reciting them randomly isn't particularly helpful.

But understanding just the right amount of physiology, physics, ballistics, kinesthetics, and human psychology - along with a systematic approach to training - will allow one to improve another's shooting performance markedly, in a relatively short timeframe.

[JohnO]

In order to help someone become a good shooter, one needs to first be a good troubleshooter.

Troubleshooting requires both "knowledge of the system" and the understanding that troubleshooting itself has a methodology.

Memorizing a bunch of things and reciting them randomly isn't particularly helpful.

But understanding just the right amount of physiology, physics, ballistics, kinesthetics, and human psychology - along with a systematic approach to training - will allow one to improve another's shooting performance markedly, in a relatively short timeframe.

Know why you are doing what you are doing. Don't just randomly try something without giving it some thought first. If it works for you be ready to reproduce the results by understanding what you did.

Someone who is struggling with grip may have additional issues. You can't balance a system with multiple processes out of whack. Tweaks may need to me made to more than just one area. Do not discount anything you are doing when shooting. Stable platform, proper weight distribution, are you square to the target, have you determined your natural point of aim, proper focus and understanding of how to read the sights, ability to break a shot without moving the gun, are you consuming as much as possible of the gun in order to best hang on to it, are you gripping it tight enough, is your grip pressure consistent, do you have the correct follow through, correct finger placement, press straight back, finish flat, did you get a second sight picture..... You can break it down further. Those are just a few thought that quickly come to mind.

[JCS]

I recently read in Brian Enos book that he uses different amounts of finger for different difficulties of shots.

Best my amateur self can tell, there's no singular correct way to do anythig in regards to the mechanics of shooting :/


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[rd62]

Are you having problems with accuracy, etc or is it just your grip doesn't look like others?

If you can pull the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights and your rounds are accurately impacting the target as a result, is your grip a problem that needs attention?

[SC_Dave]

Are you having problems with accuracy, etc or is it just your grip doesn't look like others?

If you can pull the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights and your rounds are accurately impacting the target as a result, is your grip a problem that needs attention?

I am NOT being a smart ass so please don't take it wrong when I say that I don't give 2 shits whether my grip looks like others or not. :D I am trying to correct an issue that has been beat to death on this and every other forum on the net. Right hand shooter, shooting left with a Glock. I have read everything I can get my hands on and watched hours of YT vids on the subject. I have not tried private lessons with a good diagnostic shooter/instructor and I'm looking for one within a reasonable distance from me now. I am so tempted to adjust my dot and call it a day. The only reason I haven't done so already it that I want to eliminate ME from the equation before I assume it's the hardware.
SCD

[rd62]

None taken. I just missed what the specific issue was you were trying to correct with your grip.

I struggled a bit shooting left being right handed.

I recently made and adjustment in not how my grip looks or how much finger I'm using on the trigger, but with the balance of my grip pressure and have seen some positive results. On the recommendation of another post here, I've reduced the amount of grip pressure I'm exerting with my strong hand and consciously increased the amount exerted with my off-side (left) and have seen not only a more centered point of impact but also an increase in my ability to work the trigger at speed resulting in lower splits.

[ken grant]

Go and read this . This helped me and others as well.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/question-for-mr-ayoob-about-the-wedge-grip.1340458/

[Backspin]

A couple of things to pay attention to that may help with the trigger press.

-focus on placing your finger on the trigger by bending the second joint. Also, focus on pressing the trigger by bending the second joint. You want to minimize movement of the first joint as it can induce the lateral push.

-notice where your finger is pointing at the end of your trigger press. The tip of your finger should be pointed directly 9 o'clock (for right handed shooters) to help ensure you "finish flat" on the trigger press. If your finger is pointed at an angle (other than 90 degrees) in relation to the bore, that could be the reason for you pushing your shots.

[Gio]

Taken from the other thread on this page, do this drill over and over again both dry and live fire: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23545-Week-196-Jerk-The-Trigger

Experiment with different grips, backstraps, and finger placements. You will find what works for you, and what works for you may not be what works for me. I've seen some people have success with just the tip of their finger on the trigger, and others with their first knuckle or more on the trigger. I've seen people with small hands prefer large backstraps and people with large hands prefer small backstraps. Regardless of how you get there, the end goal is to press the trigger quickly with minimal disturbance of the sights. Find what gives you the best success on that drill and then just put in the reps to make it muscle memory.

[spinmove_]

Taken from the other thread on this page, do this drill over and over again both dry and live fire: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23545-Week-196-Jerk-The-Trigger

Experiment with different grips, backstraps, and finger placements. You will find what works for you, and what works for you may not be what works for me. I've seen some people have success with just the tip of their finger on the trigger, and others with their first knuckle or more on the trigger. I've seen people with small hands prefer large backstraps and people with large hands prefer small backstraps. Regardless of how you get there, the end goal is to press the trigger quickly with minimal disturbance of the sights. Find what gives you the best success on that drill and then just put in the reps to make it muscle memory.

So much this. If you went by "what makes the most sense" on paper, then I should be using no backstrap on my G19Gen4 so I can use more finger. Instead, I'm using a medium backstrap with pretty much just the tip of my finger. I'm more consistent that way. The targets and the timer don't lie.


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[DC_P]

There is more than one way to manipulate the trigger effectively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1irZnIOFPE

[Irelander]

Go and read this . This helped me and others as well.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/question-for-mr-ayoob-about-the-wedge-grip.1340458/

Interesting...
I saw a picture of Paul Vandunk of Pace Performance Shooting using this grip but I wasn't sure if it had a name or if it was just some weird grip he was using. I'm going to give it a try. Seems like you would get a much higher grip on the gun with your support hand using this grip.

[SC_Dave]

Interesting...
I saw a picture of Paul Vandunk of Pace Performance Shooting using this grip but I wasn't sure if it had a name or if it was just some weird grip he was using. I'm going to give it a try. Seems like you would get a much higher grip on the gun with your support hand using this grip.

I can't find the video right now but there is one out there showing Steve Fisher using this grip or something similar.

[Irelander]

Paul Vandunk Jr. of Pace Performance Shooting

FIFmyself


16797

[SC_Dave]

Go and read this . This helped me and others as well.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/question-for-mr-ayoob-about-the-wedge-grip.1340458/

Just got back from the range. I went with the intent to work on grip only to try to correct my left bias. I tried the "wedge" grip outlined by Mas. Trying different thinks I found that if I put more thumb pressure on the frame with my support hand (right handed) It tightened my group up a good bit but i'm still shooting left somewhat. I was tempted at this point to adjust my dot but I'm going to hold off until the next trip and see how it turns out. I'm not abandoning the wedge grip, I'll try it again but I did get better results from the added thumb pressure. As with any grip change it feels really awkward.
SCD

[Backspin]

As you saw, a solid support hand grip can improve accuracy. On the flip side, the grip can also mask fundamental issues, like trigger press or perhaps your shooting hand grip.

How are you gripping with your shooting hand by the way? Are you squeezing into the gun with your finger tips or are you pressing front to back? That distinction can make a difference with the trigger press. Case in point, try keeping your trigger finger straight while squeezing the rest of your fingers into your palm. Most likely your trigger finger involuntarily moves inboard as well.

Next, try keeping your trigger finger straight while squeezing your fingers front to back, like a clamp. Probably a lot easier to isolate the trigger finger that way.

Between now and your next range session I would do a bunch of dry practice one hand only. The RMR on your gun will tell you if you are pressing the trigger correctly.

[SC_Dave]

As you saw, a solid support hand grip can improve accuracy. On the flip side, the grip can also mask fundamental issues, like trigger press or perhaps your shooting hand grip.

How are you gripping with your shooting hand by the way? Are you squeezing into the gun with your finger tips or are you pressing front to back? That distinction can make a difference with the trigger press. Case in point, try keeping your trigger finger straight while squeezing the rest of your fingers into your palm. Most likely your trigger finger involuntarily moves inboard as well.

Next, try keeping your trigger finger straight while squeezing your fingers front to back, like a clamp. Probably a lot easier to isolate the trigger finger that way.

Between now and your next range session I would do a bunch of dry practice one hand only. The RMR on your gun will tell you if you are pressing the trigger correctly.


Solid information! As I'm sitting at my desk this morning I'm using a blue gun to reproduce my grip and unless I'm jaded by what you've written I am using a c clamp grip. I tried the two exercises you mentioned and sure as shit with more finger tip pressure the trigger finger tip wants to curl in. In my range notes I'm making an entry to pay attention to this to be sure I really am using the c clamp. It's amazing how simple and how complex your grip is. I find it also amazing within your grip how many things you subconsciously. I will do some one handed dry practice as you mentioned. Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to ad any further info. I feel like I'm on the edge of figuring this thing out.
SCD

[Irelander]

Regarding your trigger finger rubbing on the trigger guard, I have come to the conclusion after asking some questions here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25008-Trigger-finger-drag-on-Glock-frame) that it shouldn't matter as long as you have a solid grip. My trigger finger contacts the side of the frame and the tip of my trigger finger touches the inside of the trigger guard same as you. I've been playing with my grip and when I have everything clamped down my sights are rock solid during dry fire practice. I do like the wedge grip, however, I think last round hold open will be practically impossible due to the support hand contacting the slide release, but I'm sort of ok with that.

[DallasBronco]

Trying to conform your grip to "universally accepted" best practices is like trying to force people to shoot with both eyes open. It works for a lot of people, but not all. People are different and their body's will only allow them to do what they can do.

I have a large hands with long fingers and as a result, I have a hard time getting support hand contact on the left rear grip panel. My fingers are so long that my right hand fingers wrap most of the left grip panel. To grip the gun the "right" way feels like it forces my hands wide, so I try to get more contact on the gun at the top of the rear grip panel by rotating my support hand forward and wrapping my left index finger high under the trigger guard.

You gotta do what works with your body type. As long as you can control recoil and move the trigger without disturbing the sights, use what works.
I grip mine in pretty much the same way as I also have big hands with long fingers. Mine is just reversed 'cause I'm a lefty.:)

[Hemiram]

Seeing people shoot over the years with all kinds of different grips, and shooting well with all of them, I've pretty much decided that grip techniques aren't all that important. When I shot with my own self taught (I shot alone for at least a year with no one else, except the range employees, being there), I shot pretty decently, and a lot better than I do now. When I began getting comments from other people, I followed peer pressure, and changed my grip tremendously, and I've never really shot as well since. Since I started shooting again, and I grip the way I want and ignore "advice", I'm able to do a decent center mass hit at decent speed, and I've improved to the point I'm comfortable again with shooting. I think my main issues are my messed up back and 60 year old eyes, and I don't see how those are fixable..

[Jay Cunningham]

Seeing people shoot over the years with all kinds of different grips, and shooting well with all of them, I've pretty much decided that grip techniques aren't all that important. When I shot with my own self taught (I shot alone for at least a year with no one else, except the range employees, being there), I shot pretty decently, and a lot better than I do now. When I began getting comments from other people, I followed peer pressure, and changed my grip tremendously, and I've never really shot as well since. Since I started shooting again, and I grip the way I want and ignore "advice", I'm able to do a decent center mass hit at decent speed, and I've improved to the point I'm comfortable again with shooting. I think my main issues are my messed up back and 60 year old eyes, and I don't see how those are fixable..

Have you considered that you may have gotten really good at using a substandard grip?

Meaning - learning a more optimal grip may give you seemingly dismal results at first... but if you stick with it you may rapidly outshine your previous efforts.

[spinmove_]

Have you considered that you may have gotten really good at using a substandard grip?

Meaning - learning a more optimal grip may give you seemingly dismal results at first... but if you stick with it you may rapidly outshine your previous efforts.

I think part of the trick is finding what's optimal for YOU and building from there. Sure you can shoot OK with a suboptimal grip, but that's probably all you're going to get, just OK while exhibiting more effort. Using a more optimal grip will give you better performance as you figure it out with less effort.

Individual hand size vs gun fitment plays an important role here.


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