Cockeyed Beretta 92 barrels

[MattyD380]

I have two 92 compacts. In both guns, the barrel rests visibly off center in the slide:

To the left (from shooter's POV):

16735

To the right:

16736

Both guns shoot great, and I see nothing to indicate this affects accuracy. Noticed the lean when I got my first compact almost a year ago. Did some research, and apparently this is a "thing" with 92s. So I wasn't surprised (or concerned) when I saw it in my second compact.

But the question remains: how can these guns hit POA (and mine do) when the line of the bore isn't aligned with the front sight?

It's been discussed at length on the Beretta forum, with no clear consensus that I could see. There's some belief that under forces of recoil, the barrel centers prior to the bullet exiting. And there's some belief that the offset is constant along the whole barrel (i.e., it's not angled), so POI is only off by only a mm or two--which isn't enough for most shooters to notice.

I really don't know. And I really don't care, as long as the guns can shoot... but in a world where barrel-slide lockup is seen as the holy grail of accuracy, it's interesting that 92s can shoot so well with their cockeyed barrels and seemingly half-assed lockup. Thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

[Jared]

Some time ago I found out this was a thing and checked mine out. Turns out that most of mine are fairly well centered, but a couple are cockeyed. Just by shooting the things, I'd never noticed.

At any rate, I don't have the answers you seek except for this. Accuracy comes from consistency. Everything does the exact same thing over and over (or close to it). So if the gun locks up consistently in the same manner every time, it makes a certain amount of sense that even if it's off by a bit that the accuracy would be fine.

Now, how it doesn't screw up the POA/POI relationship, I have no friggin clue. Maybe I need to ask an acquaintance of mine that's a physicist. He could probably tell me, but I may not understand the answer.

I agree with your statement that if the gun shoots and runs good I really don't find this to be an issue, just a bit odd.

[GardoneVT]

The Beretta 92 locks up against the locking block,not the slide as a conventional Browning action firearm. That is why an off centered barrel is not an accuracy issue.

[HCM]

Previously discussed here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24073-Help-with-Beretta-92A1&p=557122&viewfull=1&styleid=6

[MattyD380]

Some time ago I found out this was a thing and checked mine out. Turns out that most of mine are fairly well centered, but a couple are cockeyed. Just by shooting the things, I'd never noticed.

At any rate, I don't have the answers you seek except for this. Accuracy comes from consistency. Everything does the exact same thing over and over (or close to it). So if the gun locks up consistently in the same manner every time, it makes a certain amount of sense that even if it's off by a bit that the accuracy would be fine.

Now, how it doesn't screw up the POA/POI relationship, I have no friggin clue. Maybe I need to ask an acquaintance of mine that's a physicist. He could probably tell me, but I may not understand the answer.

I agree with your statement that if the gun shoots and runs good I really don't find this to be an issue, just a bit odd.

Yeah. I have no doubt the lockup is consistent. The barrel seems to rest in exactly the same spot whenever it's in battery. But, like you said... how is POA/POI not affected?

[MattyD380]

Previously discussed here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24073-Help-with-Beretta-92A1&p=557122&viewfull=1&styleid=6

Cool. Thanks. I read through it. Totally get that the barrel locks against the locking block, not the slide. But (as was pointed out in that thread) the sights aren't on the locking block... they're on the slide.

The groups I shoot may indeed fall within the margin of error that results from an off-center front sight (I saw he had the numbers in the thread--I haven't done the measurements). So maybe that's the explanation: it just doesn't make enough a difference to matter.

But still... unless there's some kind of mechanical centering is going on, the front sight on a non-centered 92 simply is not aligned to POI. Not exactly, anyway.

[ReverendMeat]

It's a good question, tagging to follow

[jeep45238]

I'd imagine that when the round is lit off that forces the locking block into the slide cutout much harder than the recoil spring can, and that does a 'last minute' centering job.


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[fixer]

Normal. All of mine are like that. No issues.

[MattyD380]

I'd imagine that when the round is lit off that forces the locking block into the slide cutout much harder than the recoil spring can, and that does a 'last minute' centering job.

Yeah, that's more or less what I suspect. There's some slow motion videos show that there is slide movement rearward before bullet exit. So... it's definitely conceivable.

What's interesting... is that the right-leaning Beretta shoots a bit left (for me). More so than the left-leaning Beretta. Seems to support the idea that there's not a relationship between barrel position and POI.

[MattyD380]

Normal. All of mine are like that. No issues.

Yeah. Totally not an issue. Just purely curiosity.

[45dotACP]

If the bullet leaves the barrel parallel to the line drawn to the sights it's fine. If the barrel or something is in a straight line then the bullet leaves parallel to your line of sight...not at a deflection to it?

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[ReverendMeat]

Normal. All of mine are like that. No issues.

That's not what OP was asking.

[jeep45238]

Yeah, that's more or less what I suspect. There's some slow motion videos show that there is slide movement rearward before bullet exit. So... it's definitely conceivable.

What's interesting... is that the right-leaning Beretta shoots a bit left (for me). More so than the left-leaning Beretta. Seems to support the idea that there's not a relationship between barrel position and POI.

Well, it does, actually. Think of an adjustable front sight - you move the sight the opposite direction of where you want the group to move (ie move it right if you want to go left). So a right-leaner should shoot a bit left, and a left leaner should shoot a bit right.

Since the barrel locks into the slide, this relationship is still true, as the sights are 'locked' to the slide. While the barrel has tracks in the frame to follow, the further off centerline a machined feature is, the more leverage it will have - making the fit between the locking block/slide cuts and any angles there the predominant factors.

[MattyD380]

Well, it does, actually. Think of an adjustable front sight - you move the sight the opposite direction of where you want the group to move (ie move it right if you want to go left). So a right-leaner should shoot a bit left, and a left leaner should shoot a bit right.

Since the barrel locks into the slide, this relationship is still true, as the sights are 'locked' to the slide. While the barrel has tracks in the frame to follow, the further off centerline a machined feature is, the more leverage it will have - making the fit between the locking block/slide cuts and any angles there the predominant factors.

Okay... I'm working this out in my head:

Barrel leaning right... is like the front sight drifted left <which should mean> the shots would group right of POA.

Right?

So isn't my initial theory correct? One would expect a right-leaning barrel to produce groups right of POA (since it's tantamount to having the front sight drifted left). But my right-leaner shoots (a little bit) left.

Definitely still a relationship between barrel/sights. But, I'm just not 100% sure what we see when a 92 is in battery is the relationship that is reflected when the shot breaks.

Also: Right-leaning barrel = shooter's right (not the shootee's right)

[MattyD380]

If the bullet leaves the barrel parallel to the line drawn to the sights it's fine. If the barrel or something is in a straight line then the bullet leaves parallel to your line of sight...not at a deflection to it?

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Yeah, that's another question I have... even though the barrel is off, is it still straight in the slide? I.e., is the bore line parallel with the sight line?

Seems like it probably is. But tough to measure. And if that's the case, I think you could probably make the argument that whatever it's off by... it's just a millimeter or two. And you won't see much of a difference translate to the target.

But if the barrel sits at an angle, you would conceivably have a greater variance off the sight picture, which would increase with distance.