Sig sued over defective pistols

[BehindBlueI's]

http://www.guns.com/2017/05/18/new-jersey-state-police-sue-sig-over-pistol-defect/

P229s delivered in 2014 with a barrel issue that caused FTE. Sig was, at least per the article, hopelessly flailing around trying to figure it out by throwing parts at it. That seems to be a common manufacturer response, combined with blame the user.

[warpedcamshaft]

They were limp wristing

:p

[Peally]

You'd think if they had the experience and expertise somewhere in the company to design firearms they'd be able to understand why their design failed, too.

[Phlux]

A slightly different take...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/new-jersey-sues-sig-sauer-malfunctioning-p229s/amp/


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[SSGN_Doc]

You'd think if they had the experience and expertise somewhere in the company to design firearms they'd be able to understand why their design failed, too.

So, TTAG will point the finger at the ammo, but not state what ammo was used when the problems were caused. This doesn't sound like good journalism.

I do see their reasoning for discussing that ammo could be a factor in the extraction/ejection problems, but then to not find out or report what ammo was used, but make an allusion to cheap steel cased ammo, seems kind of cheap.

It would be nice to have some independent study of the firearms and ammo. This may have actually been done as part of the law suit. It would be nice if that info was available, but it may not be made public until after the case is heard. I will reserve judgment against a manufacturer of ammo or the firearms until that kind of objective info is available.

[Billy]

Apparently they bought Glock 19s instead last year, while the P320s Sig had sent for evaluation after those P229 "supposedly" failed badly.

[blues]

So, TTAG will point the finger at the ammo, but not state what ammo was used when the problems were caused. This doesn't sound like good journalism.

I don't know that either the word "truth" or "journalism" are particularly relevant when referring to that site.

[psalms144.1]

They were limp wristing

:pand using weak ammo.

[Sensei]

Well, it's not like the P229 is an unknown quantity. The gun has been around for decades (I got my first P229 in 1996), and tens of thousands have been issued over the years. Granted, the design has been tweaked here and there, but I'm still inclined to believe that this was a problem with this batch of guns, ammo, or agency rather than a platform problem. Having said that, I do tend to agree with the premise that the further one moves away from the legacy P-series design with new extractors, triggers, etc., the more likely one is to experience problems.

Then again, maybe it's just New Jersey...things tend to suck in that state. ;)

[MattyD380]

Well, it's not like the P229 is an unknown quantity. The gun has been around for decades (I got my first P229 in 1996), and tens of thousands have been issued over the years. Granted, the design has been tweaked here and there, but I'm still inclined to believe that this was a problem with this batch of guns, ammo, or agency rather than a platform problem. Having said that, I do tend to agree with the premise that the further one moves away from the legacy P-series design with new extractors, triggers, etc., the more likely one is to experience problems.

Then again, maybe it's just New Jersey...things tend to suck in that state. ;)

Yeah. Maybe. But allegedly they replaced the first batch with a second batch (of "legacy" slide 229s) and still had problems? Weird.

Remember this thread? https://pistol-forum.com/poll.php?pollid=104&do=showresults

I dunno. I love Sigs. But sometimes I wonder about the newest ones.

[BehindBlueI's]

They were limp wristing

:p

Armorer probably took them all apart and put them back together wrong. ...

[flyrodr]

Armorer probably took them all apart and put them back together wrong. ...

Don't leave out improper lubrication - - - both brand and quantity.

[Texaspoff]

As our departments head instructor and purchaser of equipment and ammo, I can attest to large agencies having to adhear to a tight budget. Sometimes this means that the person doing the buying will go with the most for the least.

The one variable not mentioned was the ammo, brand and type. While I will never say that any pistol is infallible, but overall the 229 platform is pretty good. Any company can produce a bad run as well, but with the replacement of so many parts, and still not resolving the issue, logically, one would look at ammo next.

Personally, I WILL NOT buy crappy, cheap range ammo for our officers. I don't care how many more rounds I can get of XXX for $$$. If we spend more time chasing problems rather than training, then is that money being well spent?

FWIW Years ago the instructor here purchased a metric shit ton of Aguila ammo, cause they got a good deal on it. I was carrying a G23 at the time, and I would consistently get FTE with the stuff. The same happened with several other Glocks here, 23's, and 22's. The guys with Sigs ate it up.

TXPO

[Tamara]

Sig was, at least per the article, hopelessly flailing around trying to figure it out by throwing parts at it.

There are precisely three parts to throw at that issue. :confused:

[ReverendMeat]

After my own experience with a 229 of similar vintage, I would not assume the fault lies with ammo, lack of lube, improper maintenance practices, or ANYTHING other than SIG being SIG.

[Tamara]

Thinking back over their history with the P7 and then the SW99, and now reading this stuff, I'm beginning to think that any manufacturer that sells guns to the NJSP gets exactly what they deserve.

[donmacc]

I believe the NJSP ran Sig 228's for 10-11 years and were very happy with them. Time came for a replacement and they stayed with Sig and bought the 229's because the 228's were no longer available. I have no personal knowledge of the problems with the 229's but it would appear the NJSP attempted to work with Sig to address the problems. The Gen 4 G19's they purchased have worked out well according to conversations i have had with a couple of troopers.

[Olim9]

They were limp wristing

:p

Get out of here, everybody knows you can only limpwrist Glocks!

[BillSWPA]

Thinking back over their history with the P7 and then the SW99, and now reading this stuff, I'm beginning to think that any manufacturer that sells guns to the NJSP gets exactly what they deserve.

Were there any problems with the P7M8?



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[Tamara]

Were there any problems with the P7M8?

IIRC, there were a couple of bad shootings of the type that can happen with that design (dude already has finger on trigger and is then startled into squeezing grip) and I believe support was getting harder to get with the guns discontinued by HK?

[MRW]

The story I heard about the P7's was they were run way beyond what they should have been without needed maintenance. The story goes some of the malfunctions they had were tied to the lack of maintenance. That being said, it's a story. Others may have better information on the whole deal.

[Sigfan26]

The story I heard about the P7's was they were run way beyond what they should have been without needed maintenance. The story goes some of the malfunctions they had were tied to the lack of maintenance. That being said, it's a story. Others may have better information on the whole deal.

They do have a fairly strict maintenance regiment.


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[MRW]

The P7 or NJSP?

[MattyD380]

After my own experience with a 229 of similar vintage, I would not assume the fault lies with ammo, lack of lube, improper maintenance practices, or ANYTHING other than SIG being SIG.

I take it you had issues with yours?

[Sigfan26]

The P7 or NJSP?

Lol. The P7. No idea on NJSP


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[ReverendMeat]

I take it you had issues with yours?

Failures to extract, unfixed after two trips back to SIG.

[Tamara]

The P7 or NJSP?

Yeah, the gas tube needs to be scraped fairly regularly, and if that's done the wrong way, you can mess it up and the frame could be borked.

[TGS]

The big issue with the P7s boiled over in 1997 when Trooper Scott Gonzalez was executed by shotgun while trapped inside his cruiser as he was involved in a collision with the subject. He returned fire and at some point his P7 suffered a stoppage/malfunction that he was unable to fix, at which time he was murdered.

HK investigated, I think it was actually the late Jim Schatz (HKPRO member G3Kurz) who lead the investigation. If I remember correctly the gas pistons were out of spec from military style cleaning, using wire brushes on everything. During the investigation they also found that 147gr ammo is particularly prone to malfunctions in the P7 due to the inertia being on the edge of the operating envelope for the gas pistons (the gun being designed around NATO 124gr). Note: I'm not sure if NJSP used 147gr, or if that was just something they learned during the investigation.

Don't hold my feet to the fire on the details, it's been almost a decade since I owned a P7 and researched that stuff.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/14993-trooper-scott-m-gonzalez

[MattyD380]

Failures to extract, unfixed after two trips back to SIG.

That sucks.

Long extractor I take it? The explanation I've gleaned from copious amounts of internet hearsay is that the "short" extractor was too costly to machine, so they wanted a MIM solution. The MIM part had to be bigger to hold up, hence the longer extractor--which they (apparently) had issues getting right. Not sure that's 100% true, but seems logical I guess. FWIW, I have a P239 (short extractor) and it's never missed a beat. Though I guess the NJPDs legacy P229s with short extractors puked anyway. Maybe they fired the guy who still knew how to make short extractors?

One other loosely related point of extractor interest... is that Arex went with an internal extractor, which all Sigs originally had, back in the Mulder and Scully days. I've yet to hear a bad report on Arex guns. Nor have I really heard any bad reports on P228s and stamped P226s.

[Sigfan26]

The big issue with the P7s boiled over in 1997 when Trooper Scott Gonzalez was executed by shotgun while trapped inside his cruiser as he was involved in a collision with the subject. He returned fire and at some point his P7 suffered a stoppage/malfunction that he was unable to fix, at which time he was murdered.

HK investigated, I think it was actually the late Jim Schatz (HKPRO member G3Kurz) who lead the investigation. If I remember correctly the gas pistons were out of spec from military style cleaning, using wire brushes on everything. During the investigation they also found that 147gr ammo is particularly prone to malfunctions in the P7 due to the inertia being on the edge of the operating envelope for the gas pistons (the gun being designed around NATO 124gr). Note: I'm not sure if NJSP used 147gr, or if that was just something they learned during the investigation.

Don't hold my feet to the fire on the details, it's been almost a decade since I owned a P7 and researched that stuff.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/14993-trooper-scott-m-gonzalez

Regular maintenance and NOT USING WIRE BRUSHES are things specifically outlined in the manual for the P7.


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[StraitR]

Armorer probably took them all apart and put them back together wrong. ...

Hey, at least they didn't take themselves apart.

[1slow]

Were there any problems with the P7M8?



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I seem to remember some troopers getting the stupidity stripe from reholstering with grip compressed and finger on trigger. Edge of holster pushes finger, BANG.

[ST911]

http://www.guns.com/2017/05/18/new-jersey-state-police-sue-sig-over-pistol-defect/

P229s delivered in 2014 with a barrel issue that caused FTE. Sig was, at least per the article, hopelessly flailing around trying to figure it out by throwing parts at it. That seems to be a common manufacturer response, combined with blame the user.

Also about ~2013-2014, Sig made some part changes that deadlined a chunk of brand new P226s at agencies here in the high plains. One after another those guns stopped working at about the same, early interval. They were prompt in the fix with no blame on users, but the damage done in some significant toeholds is long-lasting.

[ReverendMeat]

That sucks.

Long extractor I take it? The explanation I've gleaned from copious amounts of internet hearsay is that the "short" extractor was too costly to machine, so they wanted a MIM solution. The MIM part had to be bigger to hold up, hence the longer extractor--which they (apparently) had issues getting right. Not sure that's 100% true, but seems logical I guess. FWIW, I have a P239 (short extractor) and it's never missed a beat. Though I guess the NJPDs legacy P229s with short extractors puked anyway. Maybe they fired the guy who still knew how to make short extractors?

One other loosely related point of extractor interest... is that Arex went with an internal extractor, which all Sigs originally had, back in the Mulder and Scully days. I've yet to hear a bad report on Arex guns. Nor have I really heard any bad reports on P228s and stamped P226s.

Yes, long extractor M11-A1. The extractor and extractor springs were replaced the first trip to SIG, which did not solve the problem. That, and the strong 100% extraction/ejection of my long extractor P226 makes me certain enough that the issue with my pistol (and surely others') had little to do with the extractor though I'm still at a loss as to what it would be.

And FWIW the internal extractor SIGs I've shot (especially the P228s) had weak extractors and bobbled around brass almost as bad as Glock 19s.

[DMF13]

A slightly different take...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/new-jersey-sues-sig-sauer-malfunctioning-p229s/amp/


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI stopped reading, and refuse to take what they say about SIGs seriously, after reading this utter nonsense:

The SIG SAUER P229 was designed and created in response to the need for a more compact version of the P226. Folks like the Navy Criminal Investigation Service wanted a gun that was just like the P226 used by Navy SEAL teams, but more compact so it could be concealed and carried while on the job.

To that end the P229 is a chopped down P226 with shorter barrel and nearly identical frame and grip.

[Tamara]

It's TTAG. When they do get something right, it's probably because they've scraped the content from elsewhere without attribution.

[Hambo]

Yeah, the gas tube needs to be scraped fairly regularly, and if that's done the wrong way, you can mess it up and the frame could be borked.

Not as much as regularly as you might think, but we didn't buy crappy practice ammo.

[fixer]

http://www.guns.com/2017/05/18/new-jersey-state-police-sue-sig-over-pistol-defect/

P229s delivered in 2014 with a barrel issue that caused FTE. Sig was, at least per the article, hopelessly flailing around trying to figure it out by throwing parts at it. That seems to be a common manufacturer response, combined with blame the user.

Five things come to mind reading this.

1) this reads like every "my gun sucks and the manufacturer sucks too" thread ever written on the internet. Step 1) I had FTEs right out of the box. Step 2) I sent it back to Sig. They swapped a part. I really want to like this gun. 3) Gun still jams. Step 4) Try gun again.

No work?

Step 5) Sell it for Glock 19.

lol!

2) This does NOT portend of good things with the new MHS contract.

3) Seriously puts a pause button on my own consideration of a 229

4) Man they had patience...I'd have been done after the second repair.

5) Please tell me those cops didn't use those on duty due to no other resources...

[KyNate]

I experienced the same issues that the NJSP had. The extraction issues for me started about 200 rounds into a 500 round range session. Sent it to Sig who claimed it was in spec. Had the same issues again and back it goes. Needless to say I sold it with a warning about the issues. Never heard back from the guy so who knows what happened. I will say that in my experience Sig Customer Service was horrendous. The employees there sound like they would rather have a Root Canal than help out a customer. I would also have to say the same about Beretta. More and more it seems Glock is the way to go. The pros of using that pistol system are far too many to ignore. Great Customer Service,Spare Parts Everywhere, and the cost of the gun.

[K.O.A.M.]

My agency has been a Sig agency as long as I've been affiliated with it. We started with P226's in 1991. They were completely reliable and gave great service across the board. In 2007, we replaced them with P226 DAK's in .357 Sig. These had the "legacy" style extractor. They have been completely reliable and gave great service. As we have had to purchase supplemental weapons (agency expanding, retirement pistols, etc.) we purchased some with the new "long" extractor. When using Speer Gold Dot 124 grain (our duty ammunition), reloading from slide lock would result in a failure to feed. We were able to isolate it to those "long" extractor pistols exclusively. When we communicated the issue to Sig, we got the run around at first, until we got to the next level. They sent someone from the factory to come check the pistols out. It turned out that a batch of slides had the breech face cut at the most minute of angles. According to the Sig representative, he believed there had been something that pushed the blank slightly off angle in the milling machine to cause this. They replaced all of our "long" extractor slides with "legacy" extractor slides. We have had no problems since.

What worries me is that we have 550 M400 SBR's with Sig Romeo4 optics awaiting BATFE approval for transfer to my agency. We will be replacing all the issued rifles with those. I am hopeful that these issues that New Jersey experienced are related to the endless variety of P-series variations Sig put out over the last several years and will not crop up in the rifles.

[DocSabo40]

...

Step 5) Sell it for Glock 19.

..

I'm not sure that's the action I would take if I wanted a gun that did not have ejection issues.

[Stephanie B]

Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
Armorer probably took them all apart and put them back together wrong. ...Don't leave out improper lubrication - - - both brand and quantity.Maybe they were too sparing with that expensive Crisco ... :p

[MattyD380]

I experienced the same issues that the NJSP had. The extraction issues for me started about 200 rounds into a 500 round range session. Sent it to Sig who claimed it was in spec. Had the same issues again and back it goes. Needless to say I sold it with a warning about the issues. Never heard back from the guy so who knows what happened. I will say that in my experience Sig Customer Service was horrendous. The employees there sound like they would rather have a Root Canal than help out a customer. I would also have to say the same about Beretta. More and more it seems Glock is the way to go. The pros of using that pistol system are far too many to ignore. Great Customer Service,Spare Parts Everywhere, and the cost of the gun.

It seems that the "old Sigs rock, new Sigs suck" ideology is well known and (in case such as this) well documented around the internet. I often wonder if it's just isolated incidents blown out of proportion by a vocal minority. But, I have to be honest, I'm in no rush to go buy a brand new Sig. Whether it's warranted or not, I can't help but feel that the newest P2XX Sigs are not the professional tools they once were... but have become more of a niche, consumer-grade product.

[KhanRad]

Even though Sig quality is supposedly better since dark ages of the 1st Cohen era(2005-2012), it is still a shadow of what it was in the 1990s. Most of my agency's guns are pre Cohen(lots of old DEA and DHS contract guns). They have high round counts, get used and abuse by less that savvy operators, and with the exception of the P220s they run damn well. Things started becoming hit-or-miss once we started adding railed Sigs to our inventory which cover a period of 2004 to the present. When we have bought batches of newer guns, an initial thorough inspection and range test usually results in sending back 10-20% of the pistols to the factory for repair or replacement. It isn't like the old days where the guns were test fired with the target in the box. Even though I give the newer Sigs a try here and there, I always seem to gravitate back to my old school Sigs for duty/off-duty carry. I will probably continue to carry a P226 that is older than many of the officers I work with until I can trust a newer alternative.

[BehindBlueI's]

More and more it seems Glock is the way to go. The pros of using that pistol system are far too many to ignore. Great Customer Service,Spare Parts Everywhere, and the cost of the gun.

Great customer service? Ok. At least "quieter about their problems".

Glock has had their own examples of throwing parts at a problem, generally while blaming the user and denying any problem with "perfection". My department had the Gen 3 Glocks that had issues running with a WML mounted on the rail. Mine would fail to return to battery about 1 in 45 rounds with the light attached. Glock changed the magazines out for all our guns, no fix. Finally the "fix" was go to go Gen 4 guns. The 17M has been a bad joke. We were warned off the early Glock 43s as they didn't reliably feed, although that has been corrected. Then there's the whole "brass to the face" issue that pops up fairly frequently.

Gun companies follow a set dance in today's market:
1) Make a gun.
2) Sell that gun for awhile.
3) Use customers for beta testers. If gun works, proceed to step 4, if not return to step 2.
4) Fuck that gun up trying to reduce costs a tenth of a cent per unit.
5) Return to step 2.

[blues]

Wash...rinse...repeat

[rauchman]

Were there any problems with the P7M8?



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IIRC correctly, during a shooting engagement during a traffic stop, a spring had broken in the P7 and the gun was inoperable. The trooper was at the least shot, and may have been killed. This is going back aways and I forget the exact details.

[LangdonTactical]

Anyone that has been to my class in the last several years has heard my spiel on gun manufacturers. They are all good, major brands. They are all bad, in the business of making money. Just because you bought the Brand X model B gun 10 years ago and it was great, it does not mean that same gun is being built today. We have all seen this many times over the years.

Very few of the current major manufacturers have the quality control that you would expect from a life-saving. Sometimes the ones that are the quickest to respond to the markets wants and needs are the ones that cut corners and do not fully validate the changes they are bringing to the market. They make changes to bring down their cost of goods sold to compete in a marketplace dominated by price point. Often those changes are not fully tested and cause issues that are not seen in a small sample of prototypes and low round count test fire. Full validation of a change is expensive and time-consuming. Fully switching out guns with a department is also very expensive.

Bottom line, you have to become a professional with the platform you have and know its strengths and weaknesses.

I will quote Ken Hackathorn here. The first three most important factors in a handgun in are;

1. Reliability
2. Reliability
3. Reliability

[MattyD380]

Even though Sig quality is supposedly better since dark ages of the 1st Cohen era(2005-2012), it is still a shadow of what it was in the 1990s. Most of my agency's guns are pre Cohen(lots of old DEA and DHS contract guns). They have high round counts, get used and abuse by less that savvy operators, and with the exception of the P220s they run damn well. Things started becoming hit-or-miss once we started adding railed Sigs to our inventory which cover a period of 2004 to the present. When we have bought batches of newer guns, an initial thorough inspection and range test usually results in sending back 10-20% of the pistols to the factory for repair or replacement. It isn't like the old days where the guns were test fired with the target in the box. Even though I give the newer Sigs a try here and there, I always seem to gravitate back to my old school Sigs for duty/off-duty carry. I will probably continue to carry a P226 that is older than many of the officers I work with until I can trust a newer alternative.

Interesting insight. Thanks.

A while back, I saw a thread claiming that the guns LE customers get are made to a different standard (small parts, etc.) than the guns consumers get. Based on your experience, maybe it's all coming from the same pool now.

Interesting read, either way: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?83494-The-SIG-face-palm-thread/page56

[psalms144.1]

I will say that in my experience Sig Customer Service was horrendous. The employees there sound like they would rather have a Root Canal than help out a customer. I would also have to say the same about Beretta. More and more it seems Glock is the way to go. The pros of using that pistol system are far too many to ignore. Great Customer Service,Spare Parts Everywhere, and the cost of the gun.My last experience with Sig CS was in the 2008 time frame, when I went through three P229Rs in .40 before giving up and going back to GLOCK. You're correct, the CS there was horrible, BUT, once I broke through to the "right" people, things became much better. I ended up with replacement pistols (x3) with shipping both ways on their dime, and a bunch of "SigTac" swag (several shirts, pants, etc). They tried to make things right, apparently their production standards simply couldn't deliver a pistol that worked.

Having said all that, I've had MUCH worse times and luck with GLOCK. Their warranty is now 1 year (used to be lifetime), and they almost NEVER offer to pay shipping to them for warranty evaluation. And, let's be serious, there is no way to "gunsmith" a GLOCK, you swap parts, and hope it works. If not, it won't work, ever. My tale of GLOCK woes is long, but 5 bad G19s in a row is a pretty significant run. The last time I needed GLOCK to look at a pistol for substandard performance, it took weeks of calling higher up the food chain to get them to fart out a return shipping label.

Agreed that parts are super available for GLOCKs, and that, if you're lucky, you won't have to use them. And, GLOCKs are cheap, especially if you're buying them Blue Label. Full disclosure - I carry GLOCKs all day every day on and off duty, but if I were just getting into the handgun market today, I don't think they'd be my first choice.

[blues]

Having said all that, I've had MUCH worse times and luck with GLOCK. Their warranty is now 1 year (used to be lifetime), and they almost NEVER offer to pay shipping to them for warranty evaluation. And, let's be serious, there is no way to "gunsmith" a GLOCK, you swap parts, and hope it works. If not, it won't work, ever. My tale of GLOCK woes is long, but 5 bad G19s in a row is a pretty significant run. The last time I needed GLOCK to look at a pistol for substandard performance, it took weeks of calling higher up the food chain to get them to fart out a return shipping label.

Not to contradict your experience at all, Kevin, but in fairness just wanted to say for the record that they just recently replaced the frame and updated all the internals on my 12/88 dated G19 when I directed their Tech Services rep to an image of the chip broken off the frame at the mag well.

While it did cost me the price of overnight shipping (one way), I had the gun back to me a week from the day I shipped it to Smyrna with a new frame and guts.

I've owned that gun for 28 years.

ETA:

I don't know if the reason why they serviced the gun under warranty is because I owned it prior to any change in the warranty language, an LE thing, or if the rep was just being generous that day. But once he saw the image of the chip he immediately said, "yeah, we'll take care of that under warranty" and directed me to the page I needed to fill out to request the service.

[STI]

Full disclosure - I carry GLOCKs all day every day on and off duty, but if I were just getting into the handgun market today, I don't think they'd be my first choice.

Expand ...

[Exiledviking]

Quality is hard to maintain when they're too busy creating the flavor of the week, ie Scorpion SEAL Super tac whatever. Cohen must think he's running Taco Bell.

[jwperry]

It seems that the "old Sigs rock, new Sigs suck" ideology is well known and (in case such as this) well documented around the internet. I often wonder if it's just isolated incidents blown out of proportion by a vocal minority. But, I have to be honest, I'm in no rush to go buy a brand new Sig. Whether it's warranted or not, I can't help but feel that the newest P2XX Sigs are not the professional tools they once were... but have become more of a niche, consumer-grade product.

I feel this is the greatest truth to their marketing and their legacy product lines right now. There's no reason that a Mk25 should cost nearly double a M9A1 other than manufacturer markup. They're inflating their price point to create an artificial value that gets reflected on their products in the used market.

Other than some 1911 toys, all my 'serious' (as serious as a middle management desk jockey civilian's pistols get...) are classic P series Sigs of modern manufacture.

[psalms144.1]

Expand ...GLOCKs, especially the 19s, continued to be plagued by BTF and erratic ejection. As shown in the ENORMOUS number of "how much trigger, how should I grip, etc" my GLOCK threads, GLOCKS are one of the hardest makes on the market to shoot with a high level of accuracy for most people.

The HK VP9 gives better accuracy, better ergonomics, an equivalent or lower price, with more consistency in performance and reliability. It's bigger than the G19, but if I was starting out with a good holster, I have no doubt that I would get used to that "new normal."

The P320 offers better accuracy, better ergonomics, and vastly superior modularity. Never heard of BTF of FTE issues with the P320. Ditto the comments above and size.

Various hammer fired pistols are arguably "safer" for carry, and with practice, can be shot to the same level or higher than what most can achieve with their GLOCKs - both with regards to accuracy and speed.

But, I became a "GLOCK Guy" way back when most people still believed they were invisible to x-rays. I don't doubt I've fired well in excess of 100K through GLOCKs in training, deployments and competition over the last three decades. I have SO much money invested in GLOCKS and magazines/sights/accessories that making a wholesale switch to another platform would be simply not do-able from a financial perspective.

[Tamara]

2) This does NOT portend of good things with the new MHS contract.


IBut, I have to be honest, I'm in no rush to go buy a brand new Sig. Whether it's warranted or not, I can't help but feel that the newest P2XX Sigs are not the professional tools they once were... but have become more of a niche, consumer-grade product.

I don't think it would be speculating too wildly to say that the 320 is receiving the lion's share of attention at the Mother Ship in Exeter right now.

On the upside, I've got a reasonable amount of trigger time on three different personal P320s, plus a bunch more I've just fam-fired, whether from a friend or at a press event, and they've been uniformly reliable.

[PPGMD]

A while back, I saw a thread claiming that the guns LE customers get are made to a different standard (small parts, etc.) than the guns consumers get. Based on your experience, maybe it's all coming from the same pool now.

For enough money gun companies will practically sell you their daughter's virtue. But if you want to pay polymer of money for a metal pistol corners are going to have to be cut.

My personal hope that with the 320 we can see the Classic P series become like the S&W Revolvers, a higher end product that you pay good money for. Or pull an Hk and just discontinue the entire series once sales drop off.

[PPGMD]

I feel this is the greatest truth to their marketing and their legacy product lines right now. There's no reason that a Mk25 should cost nearly double a M9A1 other than manufacturer markup. They're inflating their price point to create an artificial value that gets reflected on their products in the used market.

That model kept them alive, as how many plain jane SIGs do you need? But you slap a fancy finish you have collector idiots willing to fork over 30-40% more to buy a second or a third SIG. During the same period they still sold plain jane guns for a reasonable price (in fact the price increases were minimal on those models).

Remember those of us that buy back ups and back ups to backups are a minority in the gun market.

[MattyD380]

I don't think it would be speculating too wildly to say that the 320 is receiving the lion's share of attention at the Mother Ship in Exeter right now.

On the upside, I've got a reasonable amount of trigger time on three different personal P320s, plus a bunch more I've just fam-fired, whether from a friend or at a press event, and they've been uniformly reliable.

Yeah, no doubt. And I think that reflects a broader reality in today's market; agencies are skewing toward less-expensive striker fired guns, so that's what gets the attention/quality control. P2XXs and (before that) 1911s both used to be military and police mainstays... now they're pretty much all beavertails, bells and whistles. Hopefully Beretta doesn't let the 92 slip when/if the contracts start to dry up.

I will also say that the P320 I shot was perfectly reliable returned good accuracy. Trigger felt pretty much like an SAO to me, so I guess that's not a huge surprise. But it seems like a pretty good gun overall.

[MattyD380]

For enough money gun companies will practically sell you their daughter's virtue. But if you want to pay polymer of money for a metal pistol corners are going to have to be cut.

My personal hope that with the 320 we can see the Classic P series become like the S&W Revolvers, a higher end product that you pay good money for. Or pull an Hk and just discontinue the entire series once sales drop off.

I think the point is that certain consumers are willing to pay more for a classic P series... and they do pay more. A lot more. Yet, they're not getting a gun that's truly made to military/police standards anymore (or at least it doesn't seem like it). I realize the margins are different on metal-framed, hammer-fired guns. But don't upcharge to make your margins, and cut corners on the parts/QC. Which is what it seems like Sig is doing.

Like you said, maybe they'll axe the product line. HK did with the P7. S&W did with the 3rd gens. And, for the record, I would pay serious dough for a resurrected Smith DA/SA autoloader with PC upgrades. Just sayin...

[jwperry]

For enough money gun companies will practically sell you their daughter's virtue. But if you want to pay polymer of money for a metal pistol corners are going to have to be cut.

My personal hope that with the 320 we can see the Classic P series become like the S&W Revolvers, a higher end product that you pay good money for. Or pull an Hk and just discontinue the entire series once sales drop off.

Isn't that kind of what the Legion series is moving towards? All the upgrades all rolled into 1 package sold at a premium? (for the record, if the Legion's didn't have beaver tails I'd think they were the perfect/best value Sig due to their feature set & price point)


That model kept them alive, as how many plain jane SIGs do you need? But you slap a fancy finish you have collector idiots willing to fork over 30-40% more to buy a second or a third SIG. During the same period they still sold plain jane guns for a reasonable price (in fact the price increases were minimal on those models).

Remember those of us that buy back ups and back ups to backups are a minority in the gun market.

I use the example of a Mk25 because all the overhead costs that go into initial release should be depreciated off a model with short extractor & 1913 rail. But as an owner of 2 of these, I found their NIB price similar to a Nitron version (when I was shopping a couple years ago) and wanted to keep the short extractor to keep common spare parts with my SCT that I already owned.

[Tamara]

Hopefully Beretta doesn't let the 92 slip...

I have bad news... ;)

[PPGMD]

I think the point is that certain consumers are willing to pay more for a classic P series... and they do pay more. A lot more. Yet, they're not getting a gun that's truly made to military/police standards anymore (or at least it doesn't seem like it). I realize the margins are different on metal-framed, hammer-fired guns. But don't upcharge to make your margins, and cut corners on the parts/QC. Which is what it seems like Sig is doing.

Except it had nothing to do with margins, it had to do with keeping the company alive. During the 2003-2009 the prices of most raw materials literally doubled. Yet due to pressure from Glock, SIG couldn't raise their prices on plain jane models. That is why even during the height of this period plain jane models only went up 30-40%. If it weren't for the cost cutting SIG would literally be bankrupt, as they could barely make payroll at one point.

If SIG prices truly went up with the increased costs and didn't change a thing in production a plain jane model would've probably be in the $1,200-1,500 range. What we consider to be in a production 1911 territory.

Glock pricing strategy of marking up their guns and only minimally increasing prices as the costs increase put tremendous pressure on the metal frame companies that didn't have nearly the same margins.

[PPGMD]

Isn't that kind of what the Legion series is moving towards? All the upgrades all rolled into 1 package sold at a premium? (for the record, if the Legion's didn't have beaver tails I'd think they were the perfect/best value Sig due to their feature set & price point)

The Legion was SIG's attempt to make a premium pistol that would appeal to people like us, in addition to the masses. All the features that many of us already do to our pistols at a lower price point. It worked.

Personally I like the beaver tail, I find it shooters more comfortably as the pistol locks into my hand better. If I were still carrying and shooting SIGs it would probably be high up on my list of guns to purchase.


I use the example of a Mk25 because all the overhead costs that go into initial release should be depreciated off a model with short extractor & 1913 rail. But as an owner of 2 of these, I found their NIB price similar to a Nitron version (when I was shopping a couple years ago) and wanted to keep the short extractor to keep common spare parts with my SCT that I already owned.

Gun companies sell to price points, not to a profit margin. If they all sold to a standard profit margin polymer framed guns would probably be around $300 retail today.

[MattyD380]

Except it had nothing to do with margins, it had to do with keeping the company alive. During the 2003-2009 the prices of most raw materials literally doubled. Yet due to pressure from Glock, SIG couldn't raise their prices on plain jane models. That is why even during the height of this period plain jane models only went up 30-40%. If it weren't for the cost cutting SIG would literally be bankrupt, as they could barely make payroll at one point.

If SIG prices truly went up with the increased costs and didn't change a thing in production a plain jane model would've probably be in the $1,200-1,500 range. What we consider to be in a production 1911 territory.

Glock pricing strategy of marking up their guns and only minimally increasing prices as the costs increase put tremendous pressure on the metal frame companies that didn't have nearly the same margins.

That's interesting. And, from a business standpoint, I'm sure you're right--today's Sig Sauer is only Sig Sauer that's possible given the market challenges they've faced/are facing. But still... that doesn't change the fact that P2XX Sigs aren't the guns they once were back in the 80s & 90s. And that's because, in today's market, there's just not enough LE/military demand for metal guns to justify the costs associated with keeping up the QC. <=At least that's the theory I'm working against, here...

[MattyD380]

I have bad news... ;)

You think 92s have gone downhill in quality? I mean, I think mine are very nicely made and perfectly reliable... but YMMV.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Interesting insight. Thanks.

A while back, I saw a thread claiming that the guns LE customers get are made to a different standard (small parts, etc.) than the guns consumers get. Based on your experience, maybe it's all coming from the same pool now.

Interesting read, either way: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?83494-The-SIG-face-palm-thread/page56

I believe this is correct--I have a 2014 legacy blue label P229, and it has a machined locking block and I believe a machined hammer, while current commercial guns are using MIM for these parts. Mine does use MIM for its other small parts (trigger, takedown lever, and I believe decocker/slide stop lever, and I think the extractor was, but I swapped it for a Gray Guns machined extractor).

For what it's worth, this gun (my dedicated training SIG) just flat runs. Its finish is also holding up very well compared to the finishes on my older guns, and it has the second best trigger of any of my SIGs (the first being a 1994 P229 .357 with a DA pull out of the box that feels like a DAK trigger and may have been blessed by Baby Jesus himself...)

I wish that SIG would create a higher priced line that uses higher quality, machined small parts, better QC, test firing at the factory, etc.--the average gun owner wouldn't pay for or notice the difference, but I'm guessing there are enough people out there that would that they could make it profitable.

[PPGMD]

AFAIK there was only one attempt to MIM legacy extractor, and that was limited to the 220 series IIRC.

[PPGMD]

That's interesting. And, from a business standpoint, I'm sure you're right--today's Sig Sauer is only Sig Sauer that's possible given the market challenges they've faced/are facing. But still... that doesn't change the fact that P2XX Sigs aren't the guns they once were back in the 80s & 90s. And that's because, in today's market, there's just not enough LE/military demand for metal guns to justify the costs associated with keeping up the QC. <=At least that's the theory I'm working against, here...

I don't think that demand is the right word. For LE agencies it comes down to price even if their officers would prefer a metal gun like a SIG the admins don't want to spend the extra money. And for some reason agencies didn't want the SIGPro either.

[MattyD380]

I don't think that demand is the right word. For LE agencies it comes down to price even if their officers would prefer a metal gun like a SIG the admins don't want to spend the extra money. And for some reason agencies didn't want the SIGPro either.

Makes sense, in the context of LE agency buyers. I guess the difference between then and now is that, pre-Glock, there really wasn't a cost effective like that available. Now that there is, I guess we won't see them electing to pay more money for metal DA/SA guns.

[MattyD380]

I believe this is correct--I have a 2014 legacy blue label P229, and it has a machined locking block and I believe a machined hammer, while current commercial guns are using MIM for these parts. Mine does use MIM for its other small parts (trigger, takedown lever, and I believe decocker/slide stop lever, and I think the extractor was, but I swapped it for a Gray Guns machined extractor).

For what it's worth, this gun (my dedicated training SIG) just flat runs. Its finish is also holding up very well compared to the finishes on my older guns, and it has the second best trigger of any of my SIGs (the first being a 1994 P229 .357 with a DA pull out of the box that feels like a DAK trigger and may have been blessed by Baby Jesus himself...)

I wish that SIG would create a higher priced line that uses higher quality, machined small parts, better QC, test firing at the factory, etc.--the average gun owner wouldn't pay for or notice the difference, but I'm guessing there are enough people out there that would that they could make it profitable.

That seems to corroborate what he's talking about. I'm inclined to think it's pretty legit info. I think John Hearne is actually a member here.

MIM seems all right for some stuff--like hammers, triggers and certain levers. But something like a locking insert... I dunno. Seems to me that a part which takes that much stress should be a machined part--if you're serious about the gun it's going into.

I'd love to see all the things you mentioned come back to the P2XX series. Even if they sold a plain jane P226 for $1200... I'd rather have real QC, machined parts, etc. than fancy add-ons and G10 grips.

[MattyD380]

I need to get these old warhorses out for a run this weekend.

16711

16712

[LockedBreech]

I also really like the idea of a Sig that is more expensive not for fancy features, but for exacting parts and quality control.

Of course, that will never happen, because that would be a tacit admission that they have cost-cut in their base product line.

[BehindBlueI's]

Makes sense, in the context of LE agency buyers. I guess the difference between then and now is that, pre-Glock, there really wasn't a cost effective like that available. Now that there is, I guess we won't see them electing to pay more money for metal DA/SA guns.

One thing to keep in mind is what .gov pays isn't really related to what consumers pay. Manufacturers will sometimes make some pretty spiffy deals to get their guns in certain holsters with the idea it's a marketing expense. I don't know what our state police paid per gun when they went to the P227 after they parted way with Glock, but I do know Sig ponied up for all new duty leather for every trooper.

[Stephanie B]

Manufacturers will sometimes make some pretty spiffy deals to get their guns in certain holsters with the idea it's a marketing expense.

When the NYPD forbade the use of the Kahr-something as a BUG/off-duty piece, the deal that Glock offered was to take the Kahrs in on trade, plus $50, for a G26. The gun shop down the street from me was a Glock dealer; he had stacks of boxed-up G26s and a steady stream of cops coming in to buy them.

Made for some interesting sights, as some of the cops that came in looked like hard-core gangbangers. Definitely looked out of place that far upstate. :D

[PPGMD]

One thing to keep in mind is what .gov pays isn't really related to what consumers pay. Manufacturers will sometimes make some pretty spiffy deals to get their guns in certain holsters with the idea it's a marketing expense. I don't know what our state police paid per gun when they went to the P227 after they parted way with Glock, but I do know Sig ponied up for all new duty leather for every trooper.

Certainly every company does that. Didn't Glock basically give away the G37s to GA SP to kick start 45GAP?

And there is also the trade in value to consider. An agency with a metal framed gun like a classic P series SIG can often hand their guns in one for one for a polymer gun. Lets not forget Glock antics during the AWB. They traded 40S&W Glocks for 9mm Glocks one for one. Sold the grandfathered mags for $100 each separate from the trade in guns.

Finally LE agencies don't pay FEAT which chops 10% off the price right there.

[MattyD380]

One thing to keep in mind is what .gov pays isn't really related to what consumers pay. Manufacturers will sometimes make some pretty spiffy deals to get their guns in certain holsters with the idea it's a marketing expense. I don't know what our state police paid per gun when they went to the P227 after they parted way with Glock, but I do know Sig ponied up for all new duty leather for every trooper.

P227's huh? That's interesting. Kind of flies in the face of what we've been talking about... but... cool. I'd be interested to know how widespread classic Sigs are in the holsters of LE. Or any DA/SA guns for that matter. I did see some plainclothes officers with Sigs a few years ago here in Northern KY. But I haven't not seen a Glock or an M&P in any local duty holsters for quite a while. Though I don't exactly follow cops around to see what guns they have.

Good point on the agency product placement. I've read that getting guns in LE holsters was an intentional part of Glock's marketing strategy. Guess it worked.

[BehindBlueI's]

P227's huh? That's interesting. Kind of flies in the face of what we've been talking about... but... cool. I'd be interested to know how widespread classic Sigs are in the holsters of LE. Or any DA/SA guns for that matter. I did see some plainclothes officers with Sigs a few years ago here in Northern KY. But I haven't not seen a Glock or an M&P in any local duty holsters for quite a while. Though I don't exactly follow cops around to see what guns they have.

Good point on the agency product placement. I've read that getting guns in LE holsters was an intentional part of Glock's marketing strategy. Guess it worked.

It's definitely a rarity. Troopers are the last big department in the state that issues Sig. Some smaller departments still do, and there are also many that have a "pick from the list" issue policy. We've got a detective from another department here training with us (we get WAY more shootings, so they send people to us to get some experience) and he's got an issued Sig DA/SA they bought because that was his "pick". I'm not sure if Conservation still carries P220s or not. They were the .45 guys even when everyone else went 9mm or .40, for the stated reason of penetrating brush and other possum-cop stuff better. (No idea if that's reality, but that's what they claimed)

[LockedBreech]

P227's huh? That's interesting. Kind of flies in the face of what we've been talking about... but... cool. I'd be interested to know how widespread classic Sigs are in the holsters of LE. Or any DA/SA guns for that matter. I did see some plainclothes officers with Sigs a few years ago here in Northern KY. But I haven't not seen a Glock or an M&P in any local duty holsters for quite a while. Though I don't exactly follow cops around to see what guns they have.

Good point on the agency product placement. I've read that getting guns in LE holsters was an intentional part of Glock's marketing strategy. Guess it worked.

Funny you should mention that. I was in a fairy rural court yesterday and chatting with a few deputies who were there and they're issued P220R Carry. Totally unlike any of the surrounding agencies that all issue Glock


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattyD380]

It's definitely a rarity. Troopers are the last big department in the state that issues Sig. Some smaller departments still do, and there are also many that have a "pick from the list" issue policy. We've got a detective from another department here training with us (we get WAY more shootings, so they send people to us to get some experience) and he's got an issued Sig DA/SA they bought because that was his "pick". I'm not sure if Conservation still carries P220s or not. They were the .45 guys even when everyone else went 9mm or .40, for the stated reason of penetrating brush and other possum-cop stuff better. (No idea if that's reality, but that's what they claimed)

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[KhanRad]

......for the stated reason of penetrating brush and other possum-cop stuff better. (No idea if that's reality, but that's what they claimed)

Sounds like my agency. Folklore and assumptions with no hard testing to back the claims. I brought my crew out one day for a car and materials shoot. Needless to say I got a lot of .45 guys thinking about switching to the 9 or 40.

[Sero Sed Serio]

P227's huh? That's interesting. Kind of flies in the face of what we've been talking about... but... cool. I'd be interested to know how widespread classic Sigs are in the holsters of LE. Or any DA/SA guns for that matter. I did see some plainclothes officers with Sigs a few years ago here in Northern KY. But I haven't not seen a Glock or an M&P in any local duty holsters for quite a while. Though I don't exactly follow cops around to see what guns they have.

Good point on the agency product placement. I've read that getting guns in LE holsters was an intentional part of Glock's marketing strategy. Guess it worked.

AZ DPS is under new command and is making a bunch of changes--"Troopers" instead of "Officers," "State Police" on the cars instead of "Highway Patrol," more criminal interdiction, and new duty weapons in the form of FNS .40s instead of the P226/P229 .40s they were issuing. Avondale (a smaller city in the west Phoenix metro area) issues SIGs, I believe 220s, or at least they were as of a few years ago when I was interacting with LE a lot more at work (including running face to face with an Avondale Detective with his SIG in hand coming out of our bathroom because his holster broke), and Yuma PD (Yuma is at the intersection of Arizona, Mexico, and California, and is either a gas stop on the way to San Diego, or a jumping off point for Marines to bomb the desert, is a far cooler city than it has any right to be, and don't miss Chili Pepper for kick-ass taquitos if you're ever passing through) was also issuing 220s in the mid-2000s (Yuma was a very .45-centric place at the time, with the city police issuing 220s, the county sheriff issuing Colt 1911s, and the jail DOs carrying 4566s IRRC).

[AMC]

Add San Francisco PD to the DA/SA posse. The department issued Sig P226R .40 is the only duty weapon .....no POWs other than registered and qualified secondary/backup guns. For years all striker guns were banned as secondarys because cheap, plastic, dangerous, unreliable. Still have guys who call their issued 6360 ALS a "cheap plastic piece of crap" because it isn't "quality leather". I'm to the point of avoiding gun talk with cops.....like taking advice from the average gun store commando.

[ReverendMeat]

AZ DPS is under new command and is making a bunch of changes--"Troopers" instead of "Officers," "State Police" on the cars instead of "Highway Patrol," more criminal interdiction, and new duty weapons in the form of FNS .40s instead of the P226/P229 .40s they were issuing.

Any good reason for the changes in title? It's probably a small thing but my curiosity is piqued.


I'm to the point of avoiding gun talk with cops.....like taking advice from the average gun store commando.

I'm a gun store commando by trade so ymmv but there's nothing worse than talking to a potato who's "best friend is a cop and HE said..."

[Olim9]

I know this forum has a lot of people that are fond of Berettas but be honest, has Beretta ever had a drop in quality or a bad rash of QC issues pertaining to the PX4 and M9 series in the past 20 years or so? I haven't really heard anyone complain about their Berettas yet there's so many problems with Sigs, Glock BTF (which I experience) and M&P pistols barring the Shield having serious accuracy issues.

I recently bought an LE trade in P226R that seems to have been made in late '05 that I might replace my German 226 with. If the gun has any issues, I might just sell them both and get an M9.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Any good reason for the changes in title? It's probably a small thing but my curiosity is piqued.

The titles are interesting, and have a distinctive East Coast feel--the Officers are now Troopers, and the Director is now a Colonel--not titles frequently used in West Coast LE. Even more interesting is that the current #1 and #2 at the agency came from Phoenix PD, so it's not like they brought the lingo from where they came from.

There does seem to be a definite effort to change the department's mandate. My understanding is that when DPS was formed, there was political pressure from other AZ LE to limit their mandate, and strong opposition to the title of "State Police." As such, the agency's most well known role was highway/freeway/commercial vehicle enforcement (their patrol cars were marked "HIGHWAY PATROL"), although their gang unit and UCs had a reputation for being pretty good. In some rural areas DPS did not provide 24 hour coverage, leading to jokes that DPS = Daylight Patrol Service, as well as the derogatory "taillight chasers" and "Triple A with guns" comments from city officers. In the larger cities DPS was rarely involved in "off freeway" enforcement. In the rural areas they were more active in backing up rural deputies/small town officers since some of our counties are the size of small states, and backup was, as someone more eloquent than I once put it, "approaching an abstract theoretical concept."

Under the new administration I have heard there is a push for DPS to be more involved in criminal investigations outside of criminal traffic offenses, and, if I understand correctly from a friend who is a Sergeant in a small rural town in northern Arizona, actually taking some calls for service that would have been traditionally handled by county sheriffs. Since I don't currently know anyone within the agency I can't say how well the new titles/direction is being received, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the Trooper/State Police titles, and the new vehicles (including a really cool "ghost decal" that from certain angles looks like a fully marked car, and from others looks like a regular gray SUV) are morale boosters.

I've also talked to a few Troopers about the new FNs, and their reaction seems generally positive, including one guy who came from a Glock agency and was worried about the FN because he hated the Glock, but was pleasantly surprised by the FN. The rollout seems to be mostly completed, but occasionally I'll still see a SIG thrown in the mix, in both the metro areas and in the rural areas. Interestingly enough, all of the remaining SIGs I've seen lately have been P226s. I can't remember seeing a P229 in a while, even though the agency used to issue both and gave officers their choice between the two, with a majority seeming to choose the P229. I'm not sure if it's coincidence, or if the P229s were pulled first for some reason.

[Jared]

I know this forum has a lot of people that are fond of Berettas but be honest, has Beretta ever had a drop in quality or a bad rash of QC issues pertaining to the PX4 and M9 series in the past 20 years or so? I haven't really heard anyone complain about their Berettas yet there's so many problems with Sigs, Glock BTF (which I experience) and M&P pistols barring the Shield having serious accuracy issues.

I recently bought an LE trade in P226R that seems to have been made in late '05 that I might replace my German 226 with. If the gun has any issues, I might just sell them both and get an M9.

There's a pretty good article on Pistol-training.com that goes into some of the problems Beretta had with LE and the 92/96.

I'm kind of the opinion that Beretta didn't feel the need to work too hard with the LE side because they had the M9 contract. Sort of the same reason I think they stopped making all the "super cool" versions several years ago, they had the M9 contract to concentrate on.

Further, by most accounts, the PX4's father was the Cougar, and it is not well liked here on PF. The PX4 wasn't either until Mr Langdon gave it a fair shake out and reported favorably on it. And there was the awful 9000s that Beretta made.

I'm sort of assuming that your question was in part regarding why there aren't more Berettas in LE holsters than there are. To me it seems that they didn't really try all that hard, and when they did with guns like the Cougar, they fell on their faces.

FWIW, I'm one of our Beretta lovers here.

[KPD]

FWIW my agency issued .40 P229s for over 20 years. When we started getting the long extractor guns we started seeing feeding issues. Up until then we only had one problem. We had several guns that the takedown lever broke on. It would spin freely and had some occasions where the spinning takedown lever would engage the slide under recoil and lock the gun up. SIG said it was a known issue. They fixed it buying sending us a few hundred takedown levers.

I still have the last short extractor P229 that was issued to me. I will be buying it when the dealer comes to pick them up. We have phased out almost every P229 and replaced them with Glock 22s.

[Tamara]

You think 92s have gone downhill in quality? I mean, I think mine are very nicely made and perfectly reliable... but YMMV.

I know they have. Plastic parts weren't substituted because they were awesome.

[Hambo]

I know they have. Plastic parts weren't substituted because they were awesome.

True that. I think BBI nailed the manufacturer paradigm in one of his posts. Big firearms companies aren't run by shooters trying to make the best product. They're run by MBAs trying to increase the stock price.

[Jared]

I know they have. Plastic parts weren't substituted because they were awesome.

I'll agree that the plastic part thing isn't really ideal, but from my own experience, the guns seem to work just fine with them. Swapping out the plastic triggers for steel ones seems to smooth the trigger pull a little bit. Other than that, I've messed around with swapping guide rods and stuff on a few different 92's and it's been impossible for me to see any improvements, with the exception that I prefer the larger Elite II or Stock mag releases and they too are steel.

[MattyD380]

I know they have. Plastic parts weren't substituted because they were awesome.

True.

Nevertheless...

I don't think you hear as many "My brand new P2XX had a failure to X" kind of stuff with Beretta 92s. Maybe it's just selective awareness. But Olim9 kind of had the same point. Personally, I'd trust a brand new 92 more than I would a brand new P229/6. They've changed out some parts, yes. But seems like it's not really creating issues. And I wonder if it's because the 92 is still being made to military standards... for... ahem, the military.

I'll also say that my 2015 92 compact has a metal guide rod, a metal trigger and at least part of the safety assembly is metal. Honestly I wasn't expecting that; I know the full size models have plastic parts. On top of that... the gun was less than $600. And--correct me if I'm wrong--but Beretta isn't using MIM parts on the 92s. That's a damn good value on a great product, if you ask me.

[TGS]

I'd be interested to know how widespread classic Sigs are in the holsters of LE. Or any DA/SA guns for that matter. I did see some plainclothes officers with Sigs a few years ago here in Northern KY. But I haven't not seen a Glock or an M&P in any local duty holsters for quite a while. Though I don't exactly follow cops around to see what guns they have

Classic SIGs are still fairly ubiquitous in federal LE (USSS, FAMS, DSS, ICE, NCIS, a slew of OIGs, and some others) though agencies are switching over here and there.

NYPD still issues the SIG P226. There are a bunch of local departments in NJ that still have them, though the pendulum is definitely going the other way. A local buddy of mine said that they've had 23 cracked frames and 36 malfunctions on their P229s out of about 170 officers within the last year and a half, and the officers are aggressively trying to get the town to dump them and buy Glocks.

Legacy SIG guns are pretty much in a downward spiral.

[Sero Sed Serio]

CA local buddy of mine said that they've had 23 cracked frames and 36 malfunctions on their P229s out of about 170 officers within the last year and a half, and the officers are aggressively trying to get the town to dump them and buy Glocks.

Are these new guns that have just recently been put into service? Curious on the details on the guns and the issues they are having if you are able to provide more information.

[Stephanie B]

Big firearms companies aren't run by shooters trying to make the best product. They're run by MBAs trying to increase the stock price.

Whenever I read that a company says they have a "world-class" operation, I figure that the vultures might as well start circling.

Same goes for the armed forces: "Center of excellence" means "a bunch of people who couldn't find their asses with both hands and a map."

[Sero Sed Serio]

My impression has been that the "Cohen era" guns from 2005-2008 (I've seen various start dates, although my 05-07 "SiGARMS" marked guns are of excellent quality) until 2012 or so was the low point of SIG quality, followed by a turnaround where the guns improved, but not to the level of the pre-Cohen guns. I was also under the impression that the current LE guns are better than both the current commercial guns and the Cohen era guns, but also not as good as the pre-Cohen guns. Is this a fair assessment? Or is quality declining to the point where you would do better with a gun from the middle of the Cohen era over a current LE gun (all other factors being equal)?

[KhanRad]

My impression has been that the "Cohen era" guns from 2005-2008 (I've seen various start dates, although my 05-07 "SiGARMS" marked guns are of excellent quality) until 2012 or so was the low point of SIG quality, followed by a turnaround where the guns improved, but not to the level of the pre-Cohen guns. I was also under the impression that the current LE guns are better than both the current commercial guns and the Cohen era guns, but also not as good as the pre-Cohen guns. Is this a fair assessment? Or is quality declining to the point where you would do better with a gun from the middle of the Cohen era over a current LE gun (all other factors being equal)?

It is too early to say with certainty if the latest LE guns are good to go. So far I haven't seen any problems from my guys that are using them, but this is a small sample to base an opinion on. I have talked to another armorer in my agency in a different location, and he has had a couple of P226 .40 Elites that are showing craters in their breech faces. That is either a result of Sig using softer slide materials to make machining easier/cheaper, or they didn't properly heat treat the slides. I will say that we never saw this kind of problem with pre-Cohen stainless .40S&W slides.

Personally, I would stick with pre-Cohen guns unless you need a light rail, then I would go with the newest model you can find in 9mm. At least with 9mm, the construction of the gun isn't pushed as hard and less likely to have problems. Also, go with short external extractor(I also found the old style internal extractor on stamped slide guns to be outstanding). In my opinion the long external extractor is less reliable by design, let along the fact that it is MIM.

[jnc36rcpd]

We suffered cracked frames with a significant number of our .40 226's and, if I recall correctly, at least one 239. It was about 40% of our eighty-some pistols. While other instructors differed, I felt SigSauer did an excellent job of customer service. They provided a number of new pistols and frames and replaced all of our grips with the Enhanced Ergonomic version. (The majority of cracks were under the grips and discovered during the annual armorer inspection and cleaning.) Unfortunately, they were unable to determine the because of the problem.

Between that and their lackluster attempt to get us to try the 320, we transitioned o the FNS-9 (which is another story).

[Tamara]

My impression has been that the "Cohen era" guns from 2005-2008...
Er, when did the "Cohen era" end? I mean, dude's still HMFIC last I checked.

[JonInWA]

I know they have. Plastic parts weren't substituted because they were awesome.

Tam, to an extent they were-at least in the case of the RSA guide rod. The metal one was replaced for 2 reasons: One, GIs banging on the metal one (presumably by dropping the gun when the slide was locked back, both exposing the guide rod and making it susceptible to being bent upon landing with the weight of the gun levering it), incurring slide reciprocation issues, and Two, supposedly because the metal guide rod gathered GSR, etc and te accumulation jammed up the slide reciprocation, as the debris had no where to go (Yeah, I'm a little skeptical on that one..); the polymer replacement guide rod was both flexible and fluted, taking care of both issues such as they were.

For awhile, there was quite the discussion thread kerfluffle over in berettaforum.net land over the polymer rod; after some protracted testing and use, pretty much the conclusion was that while the metal rods were aesthetically more desirable (and available in multiple finishes), operationally the polymer was just as good, if not better. And presumably less expensive. And yeah, for the record, while I've used both, I prefer the metal one, primarily for aesthetic reasons-which is what resides in my 92D today.

The other plastic/polymer parts substitutions are a bit more controversial. The one everyone tends to get heated up about is the polymer-coated trigger, where the skeletal metal trigger stub serves to support a polymer exoskeleton. While the thing works just fine, and doubtlessly saves Beretta some materials and manufacturing costs and processes efficiencies, people tend to get heated up because they preclude using the Wolff TCU; you have to replace the polymer-coated trigger with the original Beretta metal one. I believe the other polymer component substitutions were the safety levers, the magazine release, and the mainspring cap; I'm unaware of any issues/controversies surrounding 'em.

From my point of view, acceptable operational quality/durability/longevity was maintained with the component substitutions, but manufacturing costs were decreased. I don't find that to be too onerous. I've neither heard or had any other indications that Beretta manufacturing standards slipped for DoD 92 production pistols throughout their lengthy production cycle history.

Apres-production/acceptance might well be anther story; DocGKR related to us some convincing evidence that OEM locking blocks were replaced by inferior after-market ones, with predictable inferior results operationally.

Arguably, the contractually-specified quality control standards put in place for the DoD contract guns may well have concurrently spilled over to commercial production; the 92 Series, despite a relatively high degree of complexity and component count has accrued an enviable reputation for durability and reliability over the years.

Best, Jon

[Sero Sed Serio]

Er, when did the "Cohen era" end? I mean, dude's still HMFIC last I checked.

Sorry...maybe should have used a better term. What I was trying to say was that my understanding of the lowest point in quality started somewhere between 05 and 08, and quality improved starting sometime around 2012, and to ask if that jives with others' understanding as well

[Exiledviking]

Plus, most the polymer parts used by Beretta are also polymer in a lot of other highly regarded pistols like the Glock 17 and HK pistols. Nobody seems to be worried about those, same function, polymer parts in the Glock or HK...

More back on track, I have heard first hand of issues, right out of the box, with new SIG P320 pistols being issued to a local LEA. Brand new P320s having to be fixed before they run. Some QC!

[TGS]

Are these new guns that have just recently been put into service? Curious on the details on the guns and the issues they are having if you are able to provide more information.

Got some more info for you.

The department in question has had the P229 in 40S&W since 2002. All of the failing guns have been 2013 and later production. Between the 23 cracked frames and various other parts breakages, they have 36 inoperable & irreparable weapons (that's just under 1/4 of the department). There's no correlation to round count.....one of the guns developed a cracked frame in less than 50 rounds.

No idea on the specifics for the deadlined guns suffering irreparable malfunctions without cracked frames.

Trying to get more info on their other platforms.....they have a handful of P220s that their tactical guys have the option to use, and P239 for the detectives.

ETA: The P239 is suffering the same problems and counted in the deadlined number, though there's fewer of them. Two of the P220s are deadlined, but they're viewing it as a simple matter of them being shot-out or routine parts breakages due to the round count, and still view the P220 as giving solid reliable service.

[Tamara]

Sorry...maybe should have used a better term. What I was trying to say was that my understanding of the lowest point in quality started somewhere between 05 and 08...

Resuscitation from near-death states is rarely painless. I've had to eat a ton of Ron Cohen crow, and I'm not happy about, but I have to grudgingly give all those "rainbow-TiNi Gadsden Flag" and "Mosquito w/included Chinese laser and red dot sight" editions credit, because without them, there'd be no 320 or Legion guns or any of the other cool things Sig's been able to do.

[Tamara]

Plus, most the polymer parts used by Beretta are also polymer in a lot of other highly regarded pistols like the Glock 17 and HK pistols. Nobody seems to be worried about those, same function, polymer parts in the Glock or HK...

My point was that Beretta cheapens things up, too. Thus far they appear to have done it to less detriment, but they're not immune to cost-cutting either.

[Tamara]

Gun companies are always looking for ways to make money, because that's what they're in business to do.

Look, I love Smith & Wesson with the sort of irrational attachment most people have for sports teams. I've currently got over half a hundred old Smiths, and no telling how many I've owned total over the years. People go on about the change in the late '50s, when they went from the 5-screw guns to the 3-screw guns, or the change in the early '80s, when the pinned barrels and recessed chambers on magnums went away, or the turn of the Millennium, when MIM and locks showed up, but...

The very first revolver S&W made, the .22 rimfire tip-up "Number One, 1st Issue", back in 1857, was replaced three years later with the "Number One, 2nd Issue". The main differences were that the round cross-section frame was replaced by a slab-sided one and the small, circular sideplate was replaced with a large, irregularly-shaped one. Neither of these changes made the frame stronger or the gun better (nor did they really negatively affect the gun) but they did make the gun cheaper and faster to make.

[jkb4c]

Got some more info for you.

The department in question has had the P229 in 40S&W since 2002. All of the failing guns have been 2013 and later production. Between the 23 cracked frames and various other parts breakages, they have 36 inoperable & irreparable weapons (that's just under 1/4 of the department). There's no correlation to round count.....one of the guns developed a cracked frame in less than 50 rounds.


Are the frames cracking in the same location each time? That's pretty concerning. I thought the 229 was supposed to be one of the more durable 40S&W platforms.

[PPGMD]

Considering that there hasn't need many changes to the 229 frame, I would guess a bad batch of forgings.

[TGS]

Are the frames cracking in the same location each time? That's pretty concerning.

No idea.


I thought the 229 was supposed to be one of the more durable 40S&W platforms.

It is when made correctly. The 40S&W P229 and P239 have been around for decades without issue, and used since 2002 by this specific PD. Problems only arose with their guns purchased in 2013 or later. Something obviously happened....I would consider there to be defects in their material or manufacturing process that is causing it, not a reflection on the design itself.

[Manbearspider]

I wonder if the M11-A1 has more stringent QC checks, because it's essentially a 229 but its marketed as being milspec-style (QR inventory tag and all!). It's still a long extractor gun, but they are marketed as being as good as/ better than the old 228/M11.

With the polymer stuff on Berettas, I believe that actually originated on the Gov's end since they wanted to lower the price on M9s, and that was the best option Beretta could offer after testing and re-validating the pistols with new components. Then those less expensive parts naturally trickled out into the general population/ build template for the Mil type (to keep the commercial M9s 'milspec') and then base model 90 series guns. I don't think all Berettas use the poly bits though, ex. the Wilson Guns and most of the M9A3 (except guide rod).

[KhanRad]

It's still a long extractor gun, but they are marketed as being as good as/ better than the old 228/M11.

Doubtful. Not a whole lot of officers carry P228s anymore, but we have some extremely high round count guns that are ending their service life now as simulations guns. About the only thing that broke on those guns were roll pins from excessive dry firing. The newer M11 stainless slides with long MIM extractor will never be pushed as hard as the original P228s were since their time in Mil/LE is coming to an end.

[ReverendMeat]

I wonder if the M11-A1 has more stringent QC checks

Highly doubtful. Calling it "M11-A1" instead of "P229", putting "P228" on the grips, it's marketing for civilians.

[KyNate]

Highly doubtful. Calling it "M11-A1" instead of "P229", putting "P228" on the grips, it's marketing for civilians.

According to Ron Cohen himself in THE GUNS DIGEST BOOK OF SIG SAUER PISTOLS the M11-A1 came about because the US ARMY wanted a updated version of the M11 upgrades being Night Sights,Short Reset Trigger,Phosphate Coated Internals/Controls and Higher Capacity

[ReverendMeat]

I'm not aware of any .mil agency issuing the M11 that has adopted the M11-A1.

[call_me_ski]

According to Ron Cohen himself in THE GUNS DIGEST BOOK OF SIG SAUER PISTOLS the M11-A1 came about because the US ARMY wanted a updated version of the M11 upgrades being Night Sights,Short Reset Trigger,Phosphate Coated Internals/Controls and Higher Capacity

He is just trying to sell guns. The M11-A1 was the creation of Sig's marketing department. The .mil has never purchased an M11-A1, nor is it a type classification used by the military. Periodically you can find actual M11 marked Sigs with Stamped slides still released from the Sig pro-shop as contract overruns.

[Tamara]

...we have some extremely high round count guns that are ending their service life now as simulations guns. About the only thing that broke on those guns were roll pins from excessive dry firing..

And here's what happens when a gun goes too long between roll pin changes... :eek:

16804

[KhanRad]

And here's what happens when a gun goes too long between roll pin changes... :eek:

16804

I've never seen one crack the breech block on a P228 before. On a P220, yes.....twice.

[MattyD380]

And here's what happens when a gun goes too long between roll pin changes... :eek:

16804

Whoa.

[DocSabo40]

Doubtful. Not a whole lot of officers carry P228s anymore, but we have some extremely high round count guns that are ending their service life now as simulations guns. About the only thing that broke on those guns were roll pins from excessive dry firing. The newer M11 stainless slides with long MIM extractor will never be pushed as hard as the original P228s were since their time in Mil/LE is coming to an end.

To clarify: are you saying that the original P228 with the welded slide was more durable than the new P229 with the one-piece slide? That seems to differ with what I've read on this board. Honest question, not trying to stir anything up.

[JonInWA]

I wonder if the M11-A1 has more stringent QC checks, because it's essentially a 229 but its marketed as being milspec-style (QR inventory tag and all!). It's still a long extractor gun, but they are marketed as being as good as/ better than the old 228/M11.

With the polymer stuff on Berettas, I believe that actually originated on the Gov's end since they wanted to lower the price on M9s, and that was the best option Beretta could offer after testing and re-validating the pistols with new components. Then those less expensive parts naturally trickled out into the general population/ build template for the Mil type (to keep the commercial M9s 'milspec') and then base model 90 series guns. I don't think all Berettas use the poly bits though, ex. the Wilson Guns and most of the M9A3 (except guide rod).

I'm not all that certain that the military wanted a lower price regarding the M9/M10 contract guns; my impression was that they primarily wanted a resolution to preclude bent guide rods from tying the guns up; if it was in fact a lower price solution for the component/contract, so much the better for all. And while the material cost for a polymer guide rod is probably lower than that for the steel and Bruniton finished one, I have no idea what it cost to bring manufacture/component molding into place to effect the replacement.

Best, Jon

[PPGMD]

And here's what happens when a gun goes too long between roll pin changes... :eek:

It can also break off the rear corner of the forward frame rails, due to slide flex.

[KhanRad]

To clarify: are you saying that the original P228 with the welded slide was more durable than the new P229 with the one-piece slide? That seems to differ with what I've read on this board. Honest question, not trying to stir anything up.

The stainless slide and short external extractor design of the 1990s was probably the best overall design. A well implemented stainless design with no MIM parts would be superior if well implemented.......the key being "well implemented". The old stamped slide guns were VERY well implemented......better than any Sig since.

[Tamara]

I've never seen one crack the breech block on a P228 before. On a P220, yes.....twice.

That's a 228 breech block.

[Chipster]

It's definitely a rarity. Troopers are the last big department in the state that issues Sig. Some smaller departments still do, and there are also many that have a "pick from the list" issue policy. We've got a detective from another department here training with us (we get WAY more shootings, so they send people to us to get some experience) and he's got an issued Sig DA/SA they bought because that was his "pick". I'm not sure if Conservation still carries P220s or not. They were the .45 guys even when everyone else went 9mm or .40, for the stated reason of penetrating brush and other possum-cop stuff better. (No idea if that's reality, but that's what they claimed)

Quite a few agencies carry the SIG sa/da guns up in the region (NW Indiana). The DNR have carried the P220 in some form or another for at least 20+ years. They went from the P220, to the P220 ST, to the P220 ST Nitron, and then back to the P220 in a relatively short time span. Supposedly they had issue with the ST guns, which was really odd as this was shortly after Ernest ran one and won the IDPA with it A few years ago there was a few P220 ST nitrons that hit the market and they were alleged to have been overruns from the IDNR. I've never met a CO that wasn't happy with the SIG and a lot of officers in the region look down on anything but SIG.

[MattyD380]

Got some more info for you.

The department in question has had the P229 in 40S&W since 2002. All of the failing guns have been 2013 and later production. Between the 23 cracked frames and various other parts breakages, they have 36 inoperable & irreparable weapons (that's just under 1/4 of the department). There's no correlation to round count.....one of the guns developed a cracked frame in less than 50 rounds.

No idea on the specifics for the deadlined guns suffering irreparable malfunctions without cracked frames.

Trying to get more info on their other platforms.....they have a handful of P220s that their tactical guys have the option to use, and P239 for the detectives.

ETA: The P239 is suffering the same problems and counted in the deadlined number, though there's fewer of them. Two of the P220s are deadlined, but they're viewing it as a simple matter of them being shot-out or routine parts breakages due to the round count, and still view the P220 as giving solid reliable service.

Did Sig change their process on the alloy frames? You read a lot about of extractor issues or an out of spec this and that... but this sounds like a problem that's inherent to the metallurgy. Forged 7075 T6 aluminum is supposed to be pretty solid stuff... right?

[Olim9]

There's a pretty good article on Pistol-training.com that goes into some of the problems Beretta had with LE and the 92/96.

I'm kind of the opinion that Beretta didn't feel the need to work too hard with the LE side because they had the M9 contract. Sort of the same reason I think they stopped making all the "super cool" versions several years ago, they had the M9 contract to concentrate on.

Further, by most accounts, the PX4's father was the Cougar, and it is not well liked here on PF. The PX4 wasn't either until Mr Langdon gave it a fair shake out and reported favorably on it. And there was the awful 9000s that Beretta made.

I'm sort of assuming that your question was in part regarding why there aren't more Berettas in LE holsters than there are. To me it seems that they didn't really try all that hard, and when they did with guns like the Cougar, they fell on their faces.

FWIW, I'm one of our Beretta lovers here.

I apologize if the wording in my post was weird but I was asking if Beretta has ever had times where they just cranked out sub-par M9's that made people wary of buying any of them made in 2003-2006 for example. We see this a lot with Sig and even Glock has had issues with some of their guns, though I never heard of any bad things about Berettas but I just wanted to know if there were ever such cases.

It really is a shame that Beretta never got a strong presence in the LE market. I REALLY would have loved buying a bunch of 9mm Vertec police trade ins for $400-$500. :D

[Jared]

I apologize if the wording in my post was weird but I was asking if Beretta has ever had times where they just cranked out sub-par M9's that made people wary of buying any of them made in 2003-2006 for example. We see this a lot with Sig and even Glock has had issues with some of their guns, though I never heard of any bad things about Berettas but I just wanted to know if there were ever such cases.

It really is a shame that Beretta never got a strong presence in the LE market. I REALLY would have loved buying a bunch of 9mm Vertec police trade ins for $400-$500. :D

OK, I did flub your question a bit. The article does mention a PD having issues with model 96 Berettas having keyholing issues and the steps taken to resolve it. I've seen other mentions of problem batches of 92/96 series guns but not really a specific "avoid year x-y made guns because of z reason."

[Tamara]

It really is a shame that Beretta never got a strong presence in the LE market.

They had a very strong presence in the LE market in the Eighties and Nineties, but US LE's decade-and-a-half-plus flirtation with the .40S&W cartridge and Beretta's lag in making a gun specifically designed to function with it killed that.

The Beretta 96 wiped out Beretta's US LE market share.

[blues]

They had a very strong presence in the LE market in the Eighties and Nineties, but US LE's decade-and-a-half-plus flirtation with the .40S&W cartridge and Beretta's lag in making a gun specifically designed to function with it killed that.

The Beretta 96 wiped out Beretta's US LE market share.

In the late 80's through the mid 90's, when our agents were allowed to carry any personally owned firearm (above a .380 caliber) that they qualified with, several carried Berettas, (primarily 92s) but that number lagged behind Sig which lagged behind Glock.

Eventually, everyone had to carry their issued Glocks even if their personally owned Glocks were the same models.

[Tamara]

In the late 80's through the mid 90's, when our agents were allowed to carry any personally owned firearm (above a .380 caliber) that they qualified with, several carried Berettas, (primarily 92s) but that number lagged behind Sig which lagged behind Glock.

They had LAPD, Border Patrol, several state police departments...but the stampede away from 9x19mm and the fact that the 96 had the life expectancy of a mayfly with AIDS ended all that.

[Hambo]

They had a very strong presence in the LE market in the Eighties and Nineties, but US LE's decade-and-a-half-plus flirtation with the .40S&W cartridge and Beretta's lag in making a gun specifically designed to function with it killed that.

The Beretta 96 wiped out Beretta's US LE market share.

Hold on there. Wasn't the USP the first pistol designed to handle .40 instead of shoehorning it into a 92, G17, S&W 3rd Gen, HiPower, etc? Beretta's big years in LE were post M9 adoption but during that time Glock was getting agency contracts with DC, Miami, and others. The 96 may not have helped Beretta's LE marketing, but Glock is what hammered them.

[Tamara]

Hold on there. Wasn't the USP the first pistol designed to handle .40 instead of shoehorning it into a 92, G17, S&W 3rd Gen, HiPower, etc? Beretta's big years in LE were post M9 adoption but during that time Glock was getting agency contracts with DC, Miami, and others. The 96 may not have helped Beretta's LE marketing, but Glock is what hammered them.

True. The USP was the first service pistol specifically designed with .40 in mind. But the G22, 4006, and 226/229 all made reasonably successful transitions to the chambering, while the 96 was a disaster. They would have been forced mostly off the playing field by Glock due to cost eventually, like half everyone else, but their lack of even having a viable player sure sped things along for them.

[JonInWA]

And Beretta's concurrently-produced tepid toe-in-the-water approach AKA Cougar didn't manifestly help them retain, let alone increase both LEO and commercial market share, in any of its calibers during the timeframes we're discussing.

The Cougar could have been a viable pistol, particularly in .40 and .357 SIG chamberings against various contemporary polymer contenders; it had quality components, excellent fit and finish, wasn't size-disproportionate, and the rotating barrel system certainly appeared to have merit as a recoil management system for the higher-pressure cartridges. Unfortunately, it had...issues. Particularly in .40 and .357 SIG incarnations...

Best, Jon

[AMC]

I'll second Tam's point about the 96. We were issued those starting in '95, after a horrendous gun battle with a rifle armed baddie. The department decided that it went on for 30 minutes and 1100 rounds because....we all couldn't share magazines, or something. Certainly not that there were no rifles available to the patrol guys to shoot it out with the body armor wearing nut! Anyway...Beretta gave us "such a deal" on those 96G's, and 1201 FP3 shotties, that we couldn't turn it down! Sure...one guy asked "Have these things been tested properly? Like shot to destruction?", but he was quickly shouted down by the guy who retired soon after to a second career....with Beretta. We began experiencing the keyholing issue shortly after transitioning to a high pressure (for .40) 165 gr. load. Then the range guys started finding split cases on the range floor......funny, that. We were having guys miss entirely at beyond 15 yards due to the keyholing and the condition of the barrels. Beretta replaced like 400 barrels with excess chamber space due to expansion....I pointed out to our rangemaster what I thought was the obvious fact that these guns were gonna start popping. Two weeks later a couple of them did. I went to a couple of Union guys who were also firearms instructors for our Counter-Sniper element, and we all went to the rangemaster and told him we were filing an OSHA complaint over this years old issue. Four days later the Deputy Chief signed off on ordering Sigs. The transition took over 8 years....for just under 1900 officers.

[Trukinjp13]

Mi favors the p226 also. Msp and oakland county sheriffs carry them. And I have seen a few smaller departments with them also. I think it is bs how the newer Sigs run. They really were some sweet guns. I second the notion of a higher priced better built Sig.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LockedBreech]

The true story of the 96 is always such interesting reading for me. As I grew up, it was the gun I learned to shoot on and my dad's agency apparently had a stellar decade of service with them, only switching to the Glock 22 because it was lighter and higher capacity. Learning to shoot on it, I never had a single issue with it and apparently neither did my dad.

Small agency of about 200, and apparently all 200 managed to be low-round-count enough or lucky enough to get the only 200 good 96s. Imagine my surprise when I found out that they were generally considered a disaster, which is the reason I went with a 96A1 instead of a trade-in 96G when I wanted to get my dad a nostalgia gift.

This is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've posted a comment along these lines, but it really does always make me go "HUH, no kiddin'"

[Sero Sed Serio]

True. The USP was the first service pistol specifically designed with .40 in mind. But the G22, 4006, and 226/229 all made reasonably successful transitions to the chambering, while the 96 was a disaster. They would have been forced mostly off the playing field by Glock due to cost eventually, like half everyone else, but their lack of even having a viable player sure sped things along for them.

The P229 was developed for the .40, and only later retrofitted as a 9mm to replace the P228. I also believe this is what led to the use of the one-piece stainless slides in the P226, as the folded carbon slides were never used in the .40/.357 P226s. With both the P226 and P229, the .40/.357 slides are heavier than the 9mm slides. I assume S&W did the same with their .40 guns, but Beretta's (and to a lesser extent Glock's) decision to basically just stuff a .40 barrel into an existing 9mm gun and call it good hasn't really proven to be sound in the long term.

[Tamara]

The P229 was developed for the .40, and only later retrofitted as a 9mm to replace the P228.

The 229 was developed for the .40/.357 by revamping the P228, to include a new slide, and slapping a new model number on it at the marketing department.


With both the P226 and P229, the .40/.357 slides are heavier than the 9mm slides. I assume S&W did the same with their .40 guns, but Beretta's (and to a lesser extent Glock's) decision to basically just stuff a .40 barrel into an existing 9mm gun and call it good...

A Glock 22 slide is an ounce heavier than a 17 slide.

[Tamara]

The true story of the 96 is always such interesting reading for me. As I grew up, it was the gun I learned to shoot on and my dad's agency apparently had a stellar decade of service with them, only switching to the Glock 22 because it was lighter and higher capacity. Learning to shoot on it, I never had a single issue with it and apparently neither did my dad.

Small agency of about 200, and apparently all 200 managed to be low-round-count enough or lucky enough to get the only 200 good 96s.

Hey, I liked my Border Marshal, although I only owned it briefly, and I used a 96 as a bedside gun for probably six years. In retrospect, I didn't shoot them at a volume the me of today would consider very conclusive, but I loved the way they both shot. That big horse pistol with a huge grip made it easy to shoot .40...

[farscott]

True. The USP was the first service pistol specifically designed with .40 in mind. But the G22, 4006, and 226/229 all made reasonably successful transitions to the chambering, while the 96 was a disaster. They would have been forced mostly off the playing field by Glock due to cost eventually, like half everyone else, but their lack of even having a viable player sure sped things along for them.

The USP getting the distinction of "first service pistol specifically designed with .40 in mind" threw me for a loop as I thought the S&W M4006 would have had that honor. While the M4006 is derived from the M5906, the M4006 was designed at the same time as the .40 S&W round. I believe the stated goal was to be able to use the 59xx-series magazine opening so that the new round would not suffer from the complaints of "this gun is too big" like the 10xx-series guns.

Now if the USP was the first all-new design from the ground up for the .40 S&W, that makes sense to me. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but, for all of their faults, the 4006 stood up to the pounding of the .40 S&W round. S&W did a nice job in 1989-1990 with the design.

[Tamara]

The USP getting the distinction of "first service pistol specifically designed with .40 in mind" threw me for a loop as I thought the S&W M4006 would have had that honor. While the M4006 is derived from the M5906, the M4006 was designed at the same time as the .40 S&W round.

The 4006 is just a slight variation on the 5906, basically a caliber conversion of a gun designed for 9x19 to allow it to shoot .40S&W. And the G22 beat it to market, which was probably the opening salvo of an Era of Very Bad Feelings between the two companies that culminated in S&W ripping off Glock's gun, lawsuits, and a multi-year stretch where you couldn't order S&W and Glock guns from the same wholesalers. I can't remember which one Ruger was on the outs with, back then...I think Smith?...so basically you'd be like "Well, I can order Rugers and Glocks from XYZ wholesale, but to get 642's and 5906's, I have to go to ABC wholesale..." Good times, good times. :D

[Sero Sed Serio]

The USP getting the distinction of "first service pistol specifically designed with .40 in mind" threw me for a loop as I thought the S&W M4006 would have had that honor. While the M4006 is derived from the M5906, the M4006 was designed at the same time as the .40 S&W round. I believe the stated goal was to be able to use the 59xx-series magazine opening so that the new round would not suffer from the complaints of "this gun is too big" like the 10xx-series guns.

Now if the USP was the first all-new design from the ground up for the .40 S&W, that makes sense to me. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but, for all of their faults, the 4006 stood up to the pounding of the .40 S&W round. S&W did a nice job in 1989-1990 with the design.

I think you and I had the same interpretation of what constitutes a new design vs. a revision of an existing design, but I definitely see Tamara's point about the USP. However you term it, it seems like Smith and SIG put enough R&D into their .40 offerings to avoid the issues seen in other guns.


A Glock 22 slide is an ounce heavier than a 17 slide.

Was this the case in the initial guns? Not being argumentative--legitimately curious. My understanding was that Glock was able to beat S&W to market because there was virtually no change in the original 22/23 from the 17/19, and slowly changes were made as issues came up, such as the three pin frames, eventually the Gen. 4 guns with different recoil spring weights (although it seems like that only came about when the 9mm guns started having issues because Glock again tried a one size fits all approach by putting .40 springs into 9mm guns, instead of 9mm springs in .40 guns like the Gen. 3s). Was the different slide one of these changes, or part of the initial design?

My initial point was that, until the Gen. 4, it seemed like Glock had done very little to accommodate the higher pressure .40/.357 cartridges, and the guns had shorter lifespans and reduced reliability windows as a result.

[KhanRad]

The P229 .40 is not a "bad" gun, but it isn't necessarily a "great" gun either. I carried one on duty for 5 years and I got pretty good with it.....but I could never shoot it as well as any of Sigs 9mm or .45acp guns. I found the recoil characteristics of the P226 .40 to be less controllable than the P229, so if I was forced to go back to a Sig .40 then I guess I would take Todd Green's advice and the P229 would be my choice. However, I think we are going to see less and less company investment and development into the .40S&W in the future. So if I were in the market for a .40S&W I would probably grab a late 1990s or early 2000s gun.

[HCM]

Mi favors the p226 also. Msp and oakland county sheriffs carry them. And I have seen a few smaller departments with them also. I think it is bs how the newer Sigs run. They really were some sweet guns. I second the notion of a higher priced better built Sig.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MSP carried SIG P 226s for decades but they are supposed to be transitioning to Gen 4 Glock 17's.

[Trukinjp13]

MSP carried SIG P 226s for decades but they are supposed to be transitioning to Gen 4 Glock 17's.

I had not heard that. Be interesting. I know a few troopers who love them. I will have to talk to them about it. Belt will feel a little lighter I guess. But this thread is a prime example of being nervous about buying a bunch of new Sigs.


Edit- I just remembered hearing something along time ago. But did not realize it was going to be legit. Smart move really.

[Tamara]

Was this the case in the initial guns?

Yes.

[GJM]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/24/sig-sauer-responds-new-jersey-state-police-lawsuit/

[farscott]

The 4006 is just a slight variation on the 5906, basically a caliber conversion of a gun designed for 9x19 to allow it to shoot .40S&W. And the G22 beat it to market, which was probably the opening salvo of an Era of Very Bad Feelings between the two companies that culminated in S&W ripping off Glock's gun, lawsuits, and a multi-year stretch where you couldn't order S&W and Glock guns from the same wholesalers. I can't remember which one Ruger was on the outs with, back then...I think Smith?...so basically you'd be like "Well, I can order Rugers and Glocks from XYZ wholesale, but to get 642's and 5906's, I have to go to ABC wholesale..." Good times, good times. :D

I remember that as I bought a G22 before the 4006 was out. That G22 was my second Glock, being paired with a G17. Both were range guns only as my state of residence at that time (Michigan) did not allow concealed carry when not hunting.

I see your point about the USP. I guess it shows how overbuilt the 59xx guns were for 9x19. The other interesting decision S&W made was to "key" the magazines and magazine opening in the frame so that a 4006 magazine would not enter a 5906 frame. While that makes sense from a safety standpoint, it guaranteed that caliber conversions could not be done with the 3rd Generation guns.

[Hambo]

The Ohio State Highway Patrol adopted the 96 and had problems with them. At the time I heard part of the problems they were having was related to the NP3. I have no idea what the real deal was.

LE Glock .40s have certainly had their share of problems, but the force is strong so it hasn't had an effect on sales.

Another of the .40 redesigns was the P7M10, which was a truly horrendous idea. Interestingly M10 mags were usable as M13 mags.

[MSparks909]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/24/sig-sauer-responds-new-jersey-state-police-lawsuit/

Soooo what training ammunition are they using? Anyone know? Interesting.

[Kram]

Soooo what training ammunition are they using? Anyone know? Interesting.

The ammo used is factory Speer Lawman 124grain FMJ training ammo. Some of the P229s also had issues with the duty Speer Gold Dot 124 grain. Yet there were no issues with this same "training" ammo with the previous SIG P228s. They current Glock 19 is also having zero problems.

[rsa-otc]

Well that certainly puts a different spin on it. Just about every department I know of in NJ uses the Lawman ammo for training since most carry GD duty ammo. State contract don't you know. This is certainly not poor quality ammo.

The Sig letter refers to the guns being modified per the NJSP request. I wonder what modifications were requested and if unmodified 229’s run with no issues.

[Kram]

The Sig letter refers to the guns being modified per the NJSP request. I wonder what modifications were requested and if unmodified 229’s run with no issues.

The guns were the Enhanced Elite P229's with external extractor. Front strap checkering, night sights, SRT trigger, beaver tail, FCS, etc. The issued guns were no different then those sold on the commercial market. The trigger pull was not altered or changed either. They had the standard 10LB/4.5LB pull.

[KhanRad]

The guns were the Enhanced Elite P229's with external extractor. Front strap checkering, night sights, SRT trigger, beaver tail, FCS, etc. The issued guns were no different then those sold on the commercial market. The trigger pull was not altered or changed either. They had the standard 10LB/4.5LB pull.

The abysmal concept and implementation of the long external MIM extractor raises its ugly head again.

[rsa-otc]

So S&W has had the external extractor figured out since the implimentation of the Mdl 39 but Sig can't? Shame on you Sig.

[LockedBreech]

All my Sigs have the short legacy extractor (P220R, P226R, P229R) and have always extracted strong and true, though my P226 did double-feed a few times before I learned to lubricate it properly.. Over time, it has become clear that the new extractor design is inferior. I wonder if they'll ever go back.

[MSparks909]

The ammo used is factory Speer Lawman 124grain FMJ training ammo. Some of the P229s also had issues with the duty Speer Gold Dot 124 grain. Yet there were no issues with this same "training" ammo with the previous SIG P228s. They current Glock 19 is also having zero problems.

Wow. Yeah if they won't run on Lawman then something is definitely at fault with the guns. I figured they were .40S&W or .357Sig 229s that were messing up.

[jeep45238]

Does anybody know if there's differences in the rail vs non-rail frames that might mechanically make one stronger than the other (like beretta and straight vs slant dust covers)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattyD380]

All my Sigs have the short legacy extractor (P220R, P226R, P229R) and have always extracted strong and true, though my P226 did double-feed a few times before I learned to lubricate it properly.. Over time, it has become clear that the new extractor design is inferior. I wonder if they'll ever go back.

Were there ever MIM short extractors? Or are they all machined?

My understanding was that the design of the short extractor precluded the use of MIM. (I guess b/c it's too small?) So they designed the long extractor from the ground up as a MIM solution. Not sure if that's 100% correct though.

[PPGMD]

Were there ever MIM short extractors? Or are they all machined?

My understanding was that the design of the short extractor precluded the use of MIM. (I guess b/c it's too small?) So they designed the long extractor from the ground up as a MIM solution. Not sure if that's 100% correct though.

There was a batch or two of 220 MIM extractors, but it had high failure rates due to MIM binder sometimes bunching up in the leg. From what I understand they never attempted it with the rest of the Classic P series.

[KhanRad]

All my Sigs have the short legacy extractor (P220R, P226R, P229R) and have always extracted strong and true, though my P226 did double-feed a few times before I learned to lubricate it properly.. Over time, it has become clear that the new extractor design is inferior. I wonder if they'll ever go back.

The push to get away from the short machined extractor was......*drum roll*......that it was too expensive to machine the slides for it, and too expensive to machine the extractor design. The classic Sig Sauer pistol is a machined part gun.....so keep your grubby MIM hands off it Sig!

MIM is fine if used for the right application and done right. Outsourcing small parts to Brazil was a huge mistake several years ago. When was the last time a quality product came out of Brazil? Sig had some made in India and Taiwan recently too......I've lost track of things now days as they change vendors so often.

At this point, Sig really should consider discontinuing the classic line instead of cheapening its quality so that it ends up dying a disgraceful death. Keep the LE and Mil contract guns going(with machined parts), but focus on the P320 series which is designed with newer generation technology and was designed to incorporate MIM parts from conception. Plus, with all the P320 adoptions they are going to have plenty of demand.

[Manbearspider]

Does anybody know if there's differences in the rail vs non-rail frames that might mechanically make one stronger than the other (like beretta and straight vs slant dust covers)?

Rail/ non rail shouldn't make much of a difference if its done right. The Beretta straight vs slant covers do have mechanicaal differences though. The slanted dustcovers reinforce a specific area on the frame that was prone to cracking on the straight ones when the guns were shot to destruction (low maintenance/high round count testing).

And on the subject of guns built for .40 that end up being overbuilt for 9mm, the PX4 is worth a mention too. I guess you can consider it a gen 2 .40sww gun because of the Cougar heritage, but its definitely a brick shithouse when it comes to round count thanks to it. Both the Ernest Langdon threads have some pretty detailed info on this, but those guns in 9mm definitely qualify as 'overbuilt'.

[MattyD380]

At this point, Sig really should consider discontinuing the classic line instead of cheapening its quality so that it ends up dying a disgraceful death. Keep the LE and Mil contract guns going(with machined parts), but focus on the P320 series which is designed with newer generation technology and was designed to incorporate MIM parts from conception. Plus, with all the P320 adoptions they are going to have plenty of demand.

That's kind of what Smith did with the 3rd gens. At least as of a few years ago, they were still fulfilling LE contracts for 3953s, 3914s and others. I think they still have the tooling in Maine.

I would like to see world-class quality in classic Sigs again, but, I agree--if it's not going to happen... just end it. Honestly though, I think the mystique of the classic Sigs will probably ensure there's some kind of a profit potential there for the foreseeable future--so they'll keep at it. I'm not sure the Smith guns enjoyed that kind of romance in the consumer's eye (I'm not immune; love Sigs). I mean, they're still making the freakin' PPK, right?

Another idea... sell off/spin off that line to a new company who can focus on that line as their core competency. In way, that's kind of how I see Arex. I haven't shot one, but the press/commentary seems to suggest those guns are the real deal.

[MattyD380]

There was a batch or two of 220 MIM extractors, but it had high failure rates due to MIM binder sometimes bunching up in the leg. From what I understand they never attempted it with the rest of the Classic P series.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[KyNate]

The push to get away from the short machined extractor was......*drum roll*......that it was too expensive to machine the slides for it, and too expensive to machine the extractor design. The classic Sig Sauer pistol is a machined part gun.....so keep your grubby MIM hands off it Sig!

MIM is fine if used for the right application and done right. Outsourcing small parts to Brazil was a huge mistake several years ago. When was the last time a quality product came out of Brazil? Sig had some made in India and Taiwan recently too......I've lost track of things now days as they change vendors so often.

At this point, Sig really should consider discontinuing the classic line instead of cheapening its quality so that it ends up dying a disgraceful death. Keep the LE and Mil contract guns going(with machined parts), but focus on the P320 series which is designed with newer generation technology and was designed to incorporate MIM parts from conception. Plus, with all the P320 adoptions they are going to have plenty of demand.

I am not calling your info false but I have never heard of them outsourcing parts the the countries mentioned. Where did you get this information?

[MattyD380]

I am not calling your info false but I have never heard of them outsourcing parts the the countries mentioned. Where did you get this information?

http://www.nevadashooters.com/showthread.php?t=65182

That was from a few years ago. I've heard/read it elsewhere as well. Don't know exactly what other parts they make... but I think it's safe to say it's true.

Also... there's an interesting excerpt from Bruce Gray on the subject, if you scroll down a little. Worth a read.

[KyNate]

http://www.nevadashooters.com/showthread.php?t=65182

That was from a few years ago. I've heard/read it elsewhere as well. Don't know exactly what other parts they make... but I think it's safe to say it's true.

Also... there's an interesting excerpt from Bruce Gray on the subject, if you scroll down a little. Worth a read.

Not that I ever intended to buy a metal framed sig before but I def wont be doing it now that's a disgrace

[spinmove_]

That's kind of what Smith did with the 3rd gens. At least as of a few years ago, they were still fulfilling LE contracts for 3953s, 3914s and others. I think they still have the tooling in Maine.

I would like to see world-class quality in classic Sigs again, but, I agree--if it's not going to happen... just end it. Honestly though, I think the mystique of the classic Sigs will probably ensure there's some kind of a profit potential there for the foreseeable future--so they'll keep at it. I'm not sure the Smith guns enjoyed that kind of romance in the consumer's eye (I'm not immune; love Sigs). I mean, they're still making the freakin' PPK, right?

Another idea... sell off/spin off that line to a new company who can focus on that line as their core competency. In way, that's kind of how I see Arex. I haven't shot one, but the press/commentary seems to suggest those guns are the real deal.

Here's a crazy idea. How about since the P320 is going to be their new mass produced and affordable hotness, why don't they scale back the production of the classic series, go back to machining everything, and I dunno, just charge more for them? I'd rather pay the higher price for a reliable metal pistol that has the pedigree that the Classic P-series has than to pay less for a crappy POS that's going to fail.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Manbearspider]

The slanted dustcovers reinforce a specific area on the frame that was prone to cracking on the straight ones when the guns were shot to destruction (low maintenance/high round count testing)

CORRECTION: The 92 slanted dustcover was introduced to reinforce the frame when shot to destruction on .40, but is not necessary for 9mm, hence why the Army never changed over to the slanted cover.

[Sero Sed Serio]

I am not calling your info false but I have never heard of them outsourcing parts the the countries mentioned. Where did you get this information?

The last SIG factory standard trigger I bought (to replace the thin trigger that came on a P239) was labeled "made in India." I picked up a spare machines locking block for a P226, that was made in Israel.

[StraitR]

The last SIG factory standard trigger I bought (to replace the thin trigger that came on a P239) was labeled "made in India." I picked up a spare machines locking block for a P226, that was made in Israel.

Well that settles that. Incredible, I had no idea.

[Trukinjp13]

Wonder if gray guns will ever make a long extractor?

[Peally]

It seems SIG is still experiencing serious QC issues from reading the thread. I'm going to be honest, I've never been around where they didn't have wishy washy QC to my knowledge. It's a shame, based on their reputation they used to have a high standard in the good old days.

[Lon]

When I talked to our Sig LE rep back in 13 about QC issues, he told me that Sig was in the process of building a new facility in the US so they could stop outsourcing their MIM parts due to the QC issues. Don't know if that ever happened.

[jeep45238]

Rail/ non rail shouldn't make much of a difference if its done right. The Beretta straight vs slant covers do have mechanicaal differences though. The slanted dustcovers reinforce a specific area on the frame that was prone to cracking on the straight ones when the guns were shot to destruction (low maintenance/high round count testing).

And on the subject of guns built for .40 that end up being overbuilt for 9mm, the PX4 is worth a mention too. I guess you can consider it a gen 2 .40sww gun because of the Cougar heritage, but its definitely a brick shithouse when it comes to round count thanks to it. Both the Ernest Langdon threads have some pretty detailed info on this, but those guns in 9mm definitely qualify as 'overbuilt'.

Just curious if we can find a correlation beyond a model/caliber/unit - IE if these frames were all from the same fordge batch but had too high of an alloy additive that makes things harder (IE brittle), or rail/no rail, etc.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Here's a crazy idea. How about since the P320 is going to be their new mass produced and affordable hotness, why don't they scale back the production of the classic series, go back to machining everything, and I dunno, just charge more for them? I'd rather pay the higher price for a reliable metal pistol that has the pedigree that the Classic P-series has than to pay less for a crappy POS that's going to fail.

The success of the Legion series shows that there is a market for higher end SIGs among the general shooting population. I think that the days of the P-series being a viable contender in the LE market are done, regardless of how well or poorly SIG makes them--they can't compete with striker guns cost-wise, and there's the perception that no one can shoot DA/SA as well as a striker. However, if SIG expanded on the Legion marketing trend by offering guns with tight QC, accuracy standards, and fully machined parts, I think they would sell a pile of them as status symbol guns alone. That way they could have the best of both worlds--military/LE contracts and the EDC CCW for the P320, and the luxury perception of the P-series guns, with both lines being profitable, albeit for different reasons and in different markets.

[BehindBlueI's]

The success of the Legion series shows that there is a market for higher end SIGs among the general shooting population.

I was pretty excited for them...until I held one. Reports of canted sights were made here on PF and in other places upon release. Finish issues were also reported. "Higher end" didn't extend to better QC.

I wonder if the same marketing could be applied, though. Isn't the Mk25 "that gun" already? Better internals and whatnot? (Seriously, I'm asking)

[jeep45238]

I was pretty excited for them...until I held one. Reports of canted sights were made here on PF and in other places upon release. Finish issues were also reported. "Higher end" didn't extend to better QC.

I wonder if the same marketing could be applied, though. Isn't the Mk25 "that gun" already? Better internals and whatnot? (Seriously, I'm asking)

Prett sure the Mk25 is no different than a standard short extractor, except has phosphate on the internals (and most people probabl don't know that it only serves as a carrier for lubricant, no more, no less), and has a label on it of an anchor/upc.

Frankly, I think the higher end ones people here are talking about buying for the extra money do exist- the X5/X6/Xshort series.

[HCM]

Well that settles that. Incredible, I had no idea.

You would be surprised how many gun parts are made by Indo-mim. Enough that they used to advertise in American Handgunner magazine.

[HCM]

I am not calling your info false but I have never heard of them outsourcing parts the the countries mentioned. Where did you get this information?

SIG is not the only one outsourcing small parts to India and Brazil. Where do you think Glock extractors are made ?

In fact my understanding is Glock originally had the LCI extractors made in Brazil and switched to having them made in India right around the time Glocks started having a higher incidence of tolerance stacking and BTF issues.

[OlongJohnson]

Prett sure the Mk25 is no different than a standard short extractor, except has phosphate on the internals (and most people probabl don't know that it only serves as a carrier for lubricant, no more, no less), and has a label on it of an anchor/upc.

Finally, someone else understands how phosphate works!

Anyway, the Mk25 also has a 1913 rail, which might mean something. Personally, I wish Sig would just forget their proprietary rail except for servicing fleet buyers and go 1913 on everything.

[PPGMD]

Anyway, the Mk25 also has a 1913 rail, which might mean something. Personally, I wish Sig would just forget their proprietary rail except for servicing fleet buyers and go 1913 on everything.

Unlikely to happen due to holster compatibility.

[Chipster]

I can remember when the ONLY known ultra reliable, super accurate, phenomenally finished, semi auto pistol was SIG SAUER. The articles by Duane Thomas, and Jan Libourel(?) were constantly hammering home the SIG greatness. I bought my first SIG in 1995 and thought I was almost as good a shot as a Secret Service agent simply because I had one!

I wouldn't spend the money now for a new one when I can pick up barely used mid '90's series in that $500 range. It's a shame though that a company who everyone else was compared to back in the day, has to resort to gimmicks and clever marketing (?) to generate
sales. It seems HK owns the market that SIG once dominated.

[MattyD380]

I was pretty excited for them...until I held one. Reports of canted sights were made here on PF and in other places upon release. Finish issues were also reported. "Higher end" didn't extend to better QC.

I wonder if the same marketing could be applied, though. Isn't the Mk25 "that gun" already? Better internals and whatnot? (Seriously, I'm asking)

Honestly, I'd pay more for my 1988 scalloped-rail P226 than a Legion, any day.

Just don't tell anyone on Armslist that...

[MattyD380]

You would be surprised how many gun parts are made by Indo-mim. Enough that they used to advertise in American Handgunner magazine.

I don't have a problem with MIM, per se. Or even MIM from India. As long it's coupled with excellent QC and... it works. HK has a lot of MIM on their guns. They're some of the toughest guns you can buy. But I do think they make their MIM stuff in house.

[Chipster]

They had a very strong presence in the LE market in the Eighties and Nineties, but US LE's decade-and-a-half-plus flirtation with the .40S&W cartridge and Beretta's lag in making a gun specifically designed to function with it killed that.

The Beretta 96 wiped out Beretta's US LE market share.

Just ask ISP who was tickled pink to go to Glock when Paul Whitesell became Superintendent, and drop the Beretta like a sack of potatoes. Although their love affair with the Glock was more like Fatal Attraction! I heard not too long agar that they are considering ......... the P320 in lieu of their P227's.

[psalms144.1]

I "grew up" in LE with Sigs. My first agency was issue-only - and we carried P228s. They served me extremely well through some significantly intense training and deployments in the immediate-post-9/11 timeframe. We shot them a LOT, and maintenance was minimal. My current agency was "Sig Only" when I started, issued a P228, bought a P239 and P226R quickly. These were both Pre-Cohen or just after Cohen arrival pistols - made in Germany (my issued Sig was OLD, had been turned in by another agency as "worn out" and gladly grabbed up by us and reissued). They were all uber reliable and accurate - great pistols all around.

If I could guarantee I was going to get a pre-Cohen quality pistol, I'd be willing to pay more for a P228, P226R, or P239. Unfortunately, as much as I love Sigs, their QC and CS have been in the shitter for way over a decade now. Not sure how they come back from that - and, frankly, I don't think they give a shit, especially with the huge contracts they just landed. If history of Sig's QC changes in the wake of large contract awards (looking at the DHS award for DAKs), things will get worse, not better.

Again, my hope is that the P320, which was designed from the ground up as a mass production pistol like the GLOCK, will fare better with less QC attention. Time will tell.

[MattyD380]

Here's a crazy idea. How about since the P320 is going to be their new mass produced and affordable hotness, why don't they scale back the production of the classic series, go back to machining everything, and I dunno, just charge more for them? I'd rather pay the higher price for a reliable metal pistol that has the pedigree that the Classic P-series has than to pay less for a crappy POS that's going to fail.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Yeah. It'd be nice. Still... I'm just not sure the "Sig Sauer" of today is the right company to make the kind of pistols that everybody misses from the 90s. I don't know all the ins and outs of the sell-offs and divestitures... but, suffice to say, it's a different company than it was.

Shit, transfer the P-series rights back to J.P. Sauer, exclusively. They probably know how to make the things better than anyone. So you have a $1000 "Sauer P226," made in Germany, with good, old-fashioned QC on par with a fascist regime. You, me and everyone on this forum is happy. And you have a $500 "Sig Sauer P320" made in New Hampshire, for military, police and everyone else.

I can dream...

[HCM]

I don't have a problem with MIM, per se. Or even MIM from India. As long it's coupled with excellent QC and... it works. HK has a lot of MIM on their guns. They're some of the toughest guns you can buy. But I do think they make their MIM stuff in house.


I do not disagree. There is good MIM and bad MIM. What makes HK "good" MIM is not just that it is made in house to high QC standards but that their MIM parts were designed as MIM parts from their inception based on the strengths and weaknesses of MIM parts.

Where MIM goes bad is identically duplicating parts which were originally designed to be forged / machined and does not take into account the different properties of the two materials.

India is perfectly capable of making good or bad depending on what the customer specifies and more importantly what the customer is willing to pay for in term she of QC and reject rate.

[HCM]

Yeah. It'd be nice. Still... I'm just not sure the "Sig Sauer" of today is the right company to make the kind of pistols that everybody misses from the 90s. I don't know all the ins and outs of the sell-offs and divestitures... but, suffice to say, it's a different company than it was.

Shit, transfer the P-series rights back to J.P. Sauer, exclusively. They probably know how to make the things better than anyone. So you have a $1000 "Sauer P226," made in Germany, with good, old-fashioned QC on par with a fascist regime. You, me and everyone on this forum is happy. And you have a $500 "Sig Sauer P320" made in New Hampshire, for military, police and everyone else.

I can dream...

That would mean no SIGs at all as SIG Germany has been barred from exporting guns by the German Govt.

[MattyD380]

That would mean no SIGs at all as SIG Germany has been barred from exporting guns by the German Govt.

All the more reason to make them under a different name. Or whenever that ban ends.

[paherne]

I'll second Tam's point about the 96. We were issued those starting in '95, after a horrendous gun battle with a rifle armed baddie. The department decided that it went on for 30 minutes and 1100 rounds because....we all couldn't share magazines, or something. Certainly not that there were no rifles available to the patrol guys to shoot it out with the body armor wearing nut! Anyway...Beretta gave us "such a deal" on those 96G's, and 1201 FP3 shotties, that we couldn't turn it down! Sure...one guy asked "Have these things been tested properly? Like shot to destruction?", but he was quickly shouted down by the guy who retired soon after to a second career....with Beretta. We began experiencing the keyholing issue shortly after transitioning to a high pressure (for .40) 165 gr. load. Then the range guys started finding split cases on the range floor......funny, that. We were having guys miss entirely at beyond 15 yards due to the keyholing and the condition of the barrels. Beretta replaced like 400 barrels with excess chamber space due to expansion....I pointed out to our rangemaster what I thought was the obvious fact that these guns were gonna start popping. Two weeks later a couple of them did. I went to a couple of Union guys who were also firearms instructors for our Counter-Sniper element, and we all went to the rangemaster and told him we were filing an OSHA complaint over this years old issue. Four days later the Deputy Chief signed off on ordering Sigs. The transition took over 8 years....for just under 1900 officers.

Charlie did a good job for Beretta teaching those armorer schools, though! If SFPD had just bought 92G Centurions, you'd still be carrying them. The 1201 shotguns were a disaster. My brother told me no one would check one out because they didn't work.

[AMC]

Charlie did a good job for Beretta teaching those armorer schools, though! If SFPD had just bought 92G Centurions, you'd still be carrying them. The 1201 shotguns were a disaster. My brother told me no one would check one out because they didn't work.

I carried a personally owned 92G from late '92 to '97 or '98, when they finally gave me a 96G. You're probably right. Wouldn't have had near the issues. I had 22,000 rounds through the 92G when I put it in the safe (still there!), and no issues or parts breakage. Took it to Gunsite twice.....had trouble making that thing malfunction.

The 1201's.....yeah. Biggest issue though was that the cops couldn't run them well. "Wait.....there's more than one 'button'? No way, man!"

[TGS]

That would mean no SIGs at all as SIG Germany has been barred from exporting guns by the German Govt.

J.P. Sauer is a different company than SIG Sauer, so would it matter? I believe Sauer is owned by the same group that owns Mauser, Blaser, and possibly Merkel. (?) I don't know if any of them are the right sort of company to produce a quality pistol....afaik, they're investment firms making exclusively priced, historical name brand hunting arms that are shells of their former glory simply for the aristocratic class of Europe as status symbols. I'd love to be proven wrong, as that Mauser M03 Stutzen is probably the most beautiful rifle I've ever seen....

Back to SIG, their current position is sort of ironic, given SIG originally being a Swiss industrial congomlerate (like Daewoo, makes everything from guns to appliances and cars) that merged with Sauer of Germany to export weapons because Switzerland had a complete ban on the export of any weapons, period.

[ReverendMeat]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?

And speaking of the 2022 I don't recall hearing of any systemic reliability issues out of that one, oddly enough.

[HCM]

Back to SIG, their current position is sort of ironic, given SIG originally being a Swiss industrial congomlerate (like Daewoo, makes everything from guns to appliances and cars) that merged with Sauer of Germany to export weapons because Switzerland had a complete ban on the export of any weapons, period.

Not sure the full back story but apparently some German made SIG pistols were exported to the U.S., sold to the U.S. Government who then sold them to Colombian Police via our foreign military sales program. Apparently the Colombians are on Germany's naughty list because it is "an armed conflict zone" so even though it was the USG who provided the weapons to the Colombians the leftist Government in Germany is taking it out on SIG.

My understanding is SIG is banned from exporting firearms outside the EU for at least 5 years. This is why SIG is attempting to set up production for the X5, P210 etc in NH. Not only for the US market but other export markets as well.

I would not be surprised if this was part of HK's motivation for finally building a "back up" production facility in the US.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070


Germany has imposed an export ban on arms maker SIG Sauer after guns manufactured by the German company were found to have been sold to the Colombian police, German media report.

Under German law, arms exports require a special licence which is not normally granted for countries where there is armed conflict, such as Colombia.

Colombia says it bought almost 65,000 SIG Sauer pistols for its police force from the US Department of Defense.

SIG Sauer denies any wrongdoing.

[Tamara]

J.P. Sauer is a different company than SIG Sauer, so would it matter? I believe Sauer is owned by the same group that owns Mauser, Blaser, and possibly Merkel. (?)

That's SIG Sauer, née SIGARMS. The Ortmeier bros own the whole shootin' match, as it were.

[MattyD380]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?

And speaking of the 2022 I don't recall hearing of any systemic reliability issues out of that one, oddly enough.

Great question.

[MattyD380]

J.P. Sauer is a different company than SIG Sauer, so would it matter? I believe Sauer is owned by the same group that owns Mauser, Blaser, and possibly Merkel. (?) I don't know if any of them are the right sort of company to produce a quality pistol....afaik, they're investment firms making exclusively priced, historical name brand hunting arms that are shells of their former glory simply for the aristocratic class of Europe as status symbols. I'd love to be proven wrong, as that Mauser M03 Stutzen is probably the most beautiful rifle I've ever seen....

Back to SIG, their current position is sort of ironic, given SIG originally being a Swiss industrial congomlerate (like Daewoo, makes everything from guns to appliances and cars) that merged with Sauer of Germany to export weapons because Switzerland had a complete ban on the export of any weapons, period.

Yeah, you're probably right on that. I know J.P. Sauer only makes rifles under the Sauer name. Still, there's this...

16897

https://www.realgunreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/1938496_02_very_rare_sig_p220st_full_stai_640-1024x643.jpg

The Sauer logo shows up on pretty much all Sig Sauer guns (fairly recent ones, anyway) where the frame was made in Germany. Some even say "Sauer" on the frame.

So J.P. Sauer must still have a hand in pistol making. Or did, until very recently.

What's weird, is that I always thought German Sig Sauer guns (and presumably these Sauer-marked frames) were made in Eckernförde. Yet, if you go to J.P. Sauer's website, their headquarters is somewhere totally different.

[jwperry]

The last SIG factory standard trigger I bought (to replace the thin trigger that came on a P239) was labeled "made in India." I picked up a spare machines locking block for a P226, that was made in Israel.

I had to go and check my parts bin, but I have a E2 grip kit also made in Israel, a 2nd mainspring seat made in Israel. (in addition to the reduced reach trigger made in India)
Everything else is stamped made in the USA.


I was pretty excited for them...until I held one. Reports of canted sights were made here on PF and in other places upon release. Finish issues were also reported. "Higher end" didn't extend to better QC.

I wonder if the same marketing could be applied, though. Isn't the Mk25 "that gun" already? Better internals and whatnot? (Seriously, I'm asking)

I currently own 2, but had 3 (traded 1 to a friend) 2014/2015 made Mk25 guns. They're my primary shooters & EDC guns.
They weren't assembled the same; 2 of them had the E2 mainspring setup and 1 had the older large plastic mainspring setup. I also suspect, based on trigger pull weight, that one had an out of spec or P229 mainspring in it because the trigger pull was significantly heavier. The phosphate barrel wears faster (IMO) than the standard barrel.
I've polished the internals of all my Sigs, paid for the Sig Action Enhancement Package and copied their work on all my other Sigs, so the Phosphate coating is irrelevant to me really. But, I feel that these components polished better than my P228 or older P226Rs that I have. I don't really feel there is any difference in their build quality compared to my other Sigs. Just a 1913 rail, short extractor, a spot on the side where a sticker fell off after getting oily and a little anchor that adds +5 to my charisma while at the range.

I'd still buy them again when compared to other current models, mostly because I prefer the mechanical design of the short extractor. I'd probably pick a short extractor, non-Mk25 over these if they were cheaper for what its' worth.

[Sero Sed Serio]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?

And speaking of the 2022 I don't recall hearing of any systemic reliability issues out of that one, oddly enough.

What are the current 2022s using? I've seen a mix of short external extractors, internal extractors, and loaded chamber indicator/no loaded chamber indicator, with no apparent rhyme or reason...

I've also found it interesting that one of their "newest" models, the P225A1, also utilizes the short external extractor, even though it was released well after the P226, P229, and P224 switched over to the long extractor, and even though it's essentially a single-stack P229. Likewise, there appears to have been no effort to renovate the P220, P227, and P239 for the long extractor. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind those decisions.

[LSP552]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?


From a fairly reliable source, they redesigned the extractor for their most popular models. The short extractor was not designed to be a MIM part, the long was form the start. My "guess" is the long extractor problems have more to do with quality control than the design itself.

[MattyD380]

What are the current 2022s using? I've seen a mix of short external extractors, internal extractors, and loaded chamber indicator/no loaded chamber indicator, with no apparent rhyme or reason...

I've also found it interesting that one of their "newest" models, the P225A1, also utilizes the short external extractor, even though it was released well after the P226, P229, and P224 switched over to the long extractor, and even though it's essentially a single-stack P229. Likewise, there appears to have been no effort to renovate the P220, P227, and P239 for the long extractor. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind those decisions.

As far as the P225-A1, functionally, it's a P239 recontoured to look like the original P225. And since the P239 uses the short extractor, I guess they just carried it over. Maybe there just wasn't enough volume on the P239 to justify going to mass-market-MIM for the extractor. Just a theory. For the .45 guns... maybe it's the same story.

[Sero Sed Serio]

From a fairly reliable source, they redesigned the extractor for their most popular models. The short extractor was not designed to be a MIM part, the long was form the start. My "guess" is the long extractor problems have more to do with quality control than the design itself.

I believe that some of the early problems were related to bad springs, as well. I had a 2014 all stainless P226 with the long extractor that couldn't make it through a mag without a failure to extract, but after I sent it back to SIG and they replaced an extractor spring, it ran like a top. My understanding is that others had similar experiences, leading me to believe that there was either a bad batch of springs, or we were all beta testers to help SIG figure out the proper spring weight.

My main issues with the longer extractors are longevity and ease of maintenance. While I believe that SIG claims the springs to be 20,000 round parts, I've seen multiple reports of failures to extract starting in the 8k-8.5k range, and I believe it's recommended that you replace the coil pins anytime they are removed. The short extractor is much easier to remove/replace.

[ReverendMeat]

What are the current 2022s using? I've seen a mix of short external extractors, internal extractors, and loaded chamber indicator/no loaded chamber indicator, with no apparent rhyme or reason...

I've also found it interesting that one of their "newest" models, the P225A1, also utilizes the short external extractor, even though it was released well after the P226, P229, and P224 switched over to the long extractor, and even though it's essentially a single-stack P229. Likewise, there appears to have been no effort to renovate the P220, P227, and P239 for the long extractor. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind those decisions.

Current SP2022s have short external extractors and LCIs. I would guess these changed along with the renaming SP2009/2340 -> 2022 but that's just supposition.

[LSP552]

I believe that some of the early problems were related to bad springs, as well. I had a 2014 all stainless P226 with the long extractor that couldn't make it through a mag without a failure to extract, but after I sent it back to SIG and they replaced an extractor spring, it ran like a top. My understanding is that others had similar experiences, leading me to believe that there was either a bad batch of springs, or we were all beta testers to help SIG figure out the proper spring weight.

My main issues with the longer extractors are longevity and ease of maintenance. While I believe that SIG claims the springs to be 20,000 round parts, I've seen multiple reports of failures to extract starting in the 8k-8.5k range, and I believe it's recommended that you replace the coil pins anytime they are removed. The short extractor is much easier to remove/replace.

Thanks for jogging my memory. I believe you are right about the early springs. And definitely agree the short extractor is so much easier to clean or replace.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Current SP2022s have short external extractors and LCIs. I would guess these changed along with the renaming SP2009/2340 -> 2022 but that's just supposition.

Interesting. The reason I ask is that my LGS had a couple of 2022 .40s in stock with internal extractors and no LCIs, which definitely weren't there as of a few weeks ago. However, SIG does have a tendency to play mix and match with whatever's in the factory, so anything's possible.

[John Hearne]

So if SIG went to MIM'd long extractors to save money and keep the price point down, how come they're still using (presumably machined) short extractors on their "budget" SP2022..?

I was told that the cost of re-engineering the extraction system was significant. If you look, Sig only redesigned the the P226 and P229. Why - they were the high volume guns and I'm sure the crunched the break even analysis. The P220/227 are still small external extractor because they can't justify the cost of a redesign based on sales. I suspect the same is true on the SP2022.

And I can't swear to it but I think that there were small MIM extractors done for the P226 and P229 as well. I recall seeing pics of broken ones on SigForum several years ago. There's a reason Gray Guns went to the trouble to manfacture a tool steel extractor as an option.

Regarding the off-shore issues, I recall hearing that Sig sub-contracted their parts production to a company out of Israel. The Israeli company promptly sub-contracted them to an Indian company. IIRC, this was "hush hush" until the Indian company released some promotional materials featuring their work - if you looked carefully, there were Sig parts.

As I understand it, Sig has massively increased their stateside production capacity with the goal of manufacturing everything in-house. See this edition of the Pro Arms Podcast: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/gun-rights-radio-network/the-proarms-podcast/e/086-interview-with-ron-cohen-ceo-of-sig-sauer-33072044

[ReverendMeat]

Interesting. The reason I ask is that my LGS had a couple of 2022 .40s in stock with internal extractors and no LCIs, which definitely weren't there as of a few weeks ago. However, SIG does have a tendency to play mix and match with whatever's in the factory, so anything's possible.

That is pretty weird. The only 2022s I've seen in the past few years were in 9, wonder if they do things any different for the .40s

[spinmove_]

That is pretty weird. The only 2022s I've seen in the past few years were in 9, wonder if they do things any different for the .40s

I have an SP2022 in .40S&W. Two-tone model, no LCI, internal extractor. Probably have around 1,300 rounds on it or so. 0 malfunctions.

That reminds me, I need to order a short reach trigger shoe for that pistol.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[HCM]

Going back to the OP, a NJ LE source tells me NJSP uses Speer Gold Dot 124 grain for duty and Speer Lawman 124gr FMJ for training. Both are good quality ammo in my experience.

[Texaspoff]

Going back to the OP, a NJ LE source tells me NJSP uses Speer Gold Dot 124 grain for duty and Speer Lawman 124gr FMJ for training. Both are good quality ammo in my experience.

Interesting, that is what we use in 9mm at our department, for both training and duty. We have a Sig p228 very very old one, a P229, and several P320 all in 9mm and they eat the stuff with no problems at all. The poor 228 that the officer has is well over 26 years old, and has had thousands upon thousands of rounds put through it. That same officer was carrying it when he was my first FTO in 1993, and he had it 5 years prior to that. It does rattle more than most 1911 I have seen, but still shoots like a house of fire, and runs like a top.

Here is a picture of it. old school work horse. Sorry for rambling, I just love old Sigs.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/FA737285-68B0-4C19-B9F0-45404ADE0CA9_zpsgykuvvyx.jpg

TXPO

[Sero Sed Serio]

Interesting, that is what we use in 9mm at our department, for both training and duty. We have a Sig p228 very very old one, a P229, and several P320 all in 9mm and they eat the stuff with no problems at all. The poor 228 that the officer has is well over 26 years old, and has had thousands upon thousands of rounds put through it. That same officer was carrying it when he was my first FTO in 1993, and he had it 5 years prior to that. It does rattle more than most 1911 I have seen, but still shoots like a house of fire, and runs like a top.

Here is a picture of it. old school work horse. Sorry for rambling, I just love old Sigs.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/FA737285-68B0-4C19-B9F0-45404ADE0CA9_zpsgykuvvyx.jpg

TXPO

That pistol looks insanely good for a gun that old, let alone one that has been used as an LE duty weapon and subjected to all the conditions that go along with that!

This thread convinced me to reconsider my original plan to pick up a new blue label P229 as a backup to my carry gun, so I went ahead and snagged a new/old stock P229 9mm that had been languishing on GunsAmerica at a decent price. It has a 4/09 manufacture date, but the sights and magazine are listed as being from 08. It's definitely a transition gun (German frame, MIM hammer/trigger, machined locking block, solid roll pin, shiny barrel finish with silver hood, more rounded slide, plastic guide rod). Other than a very stiff trigger, it has the build quality one would hope for from a SIG handgun, if not quite the elegance of the guns built in the 90s/early 2000s. I'm going to be dropping a Gray Guns trigger and DAK conversion kit into it, but will report back once that is done and I put some rounds through it.

While I was doing the transfer paperwork the gun store employee brought up SIGs decline in QC. He mentioned that they had sent two SIGs back in the last week (one was a 1911 variant, I believe) because they didn't have springs installed in the magazine releases, which just fell out when the LGS took the guns out of the boxes.

[Lon]

Interesting, that is what we use in 9mm at our department, for both training and duty. We have a Sig p228 very very old one, a P229, and several P320 all in 9mm and they eat the stuff with no problems at all. The poor 228 that the officer has is well over 26 years old, and has had thousands upon thousands of rounds put through it. That same officer was carrying it when he was my first FTO in 1993, and he had it 5 years prior to that. It does rattle more than most 1911 I have seen, but still shoots like a house of fire, and runs like a top.

Here is a picture of it. old school work horse. Sorry for rambling, I just love old Sigs.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/FA737285-68B0-4C19-B9F0-45404ADE0CA9_zpsgykuvvyx.jpg

TXPO

Makes me all nostalgic. My first duty gun at my current agency was a 228. Ran the dog piss outta that gun without ever having a jam I can remember in who knows how many thousands of rounds I put through it.

[Drang]

Sig Sauer Responds To New Jersey State Police Lawsuit - The Firearm Blog (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/24/sig-sauer-responds-new-jersey-state-police-lawsuit/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-05-27&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter)


Below is the statement that was released to The Outdoor Wire (http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1495416591cmwnaw0yrkh). As always, we will keep you updated of any changes or developments as they come.

STATEMENT REGARDING NEW JERSEY STATE POLICE
May 21, 2017 – Sig Sauer, Inc. is aware of the lawsuit recently filed by the State of New Jersey regarding its purchase of the Sig Sauer P229 model handgun by the New Jersey State Police (NJSP).

The NJSP selected the Sig Sauer P229 handgun as its new duty weapon after conducting an in-depth review and exhaustive testing of available handguns. Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP, and delivered to the NJSP as scheduled in the summer of 2014.
Following delivery, the NJSP informed Sig Sauer that it was experiencing failures during qualification training with their training ammunition. Sig Sauer immediately began working with the NJSP to determine the cause of this failure and resolve the issue.
Sig Sauer’s investigation of the failure mode indicates a contributing factor may be a compatibility issue between this unique NJSP P229 and the specific training ammunition used by the NJSP. Importantly, these failures were limited to the training ammunition used by the NJSP, and the P229s functioned when using their duty ammunition.
Sig Sauer had been diligently working with New Jersey officials to resolve the issues associated with the P229 handguns it purchased. In light of these discussions, Sig Sauer was surprised that New Jersey filed a lawsuit. Sig Sauer is committed to customer satisfaction, and stands ready to continue these discussions and work with NJSP to reach an equitable solution.

[KhanRad]

My 1989 P226 has changed hands a few times, but still going strong. Not sure on the round count, but probably over 50k.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p637/scottomega76/IMG_0723_zpsvooxhiz9.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/scottomega76/media/IMG_0723_zpsvooxhiz9.jpg.html)

[Joe in PNG]

My first "good" gun was a 229 I bought during the ban era. I sold it to a friend of mine and used the proceeds to buy a Glock 27.
I was an idiot. I unsuccessfully tried to buy it back, no luck.

[BigT]

Under the heading of fwiw related to some of the points made in this thread.

L&O group own Sauer Blaser Rigby Minox and Sig amongst others. That's the only real link between Sig and Sauer now. Same holding company but otherwise independent.


The German government have pretty much stopped all German Pistols from leaving the EU or NATO countries for a while now. Might be a few outside still getting but I know we've been on the Nein list for a while now

At least some P320 extractors and firing pins are made in India per the labels on the bags.


Currently Glock do their own MIM parts.

[LockedBreech]

Sig Sauer Responds To New Jersey State Police Lawsuit - The Firearm Blog (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/24/sig-sauer-responds-new-jersey-state-police-lawsuit/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-05-27&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter)






As a lawyer, that is a surprisingly demure and polite response to a law suit by a PR department. Someone at Sig PR is very good at their job and knows taking too aggressive a stance with a client agency could lose them other contracts.

After getting back on the military/LE radar in a BIG way with the 320, it looks like Sig is being careful to keep that cachet, even when sued. Smart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jason M]

Sig Sauer Responds To New Jersey State Police Lawsuit - The Firearm Blog (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/24/sig-sauer-responds-new-jersey-state-police-lawsuit/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-05-27&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter)






From the above text..."Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP...."

I wonder if the specs for the problem guns were a significant departure from the specs for the standard legacy Sigs. Could the malfunctions be a result of the departure from standard? This could just be sights, grips or some other change unrelated to mechanical function. Being NJ, there is also the possibility of some PC based mechanical change that is hampering reliable function. Anyone know what the "custom" touches are?

[Kram]

From the above text..."Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP...."

I wonder if the specs for the problem guns were a significant departure from the specs for the standard legacy Sigs. Could the malfunctions be a result of the departure from standard? This could just be sights, grips or some other change unrelated to mechanical function. Being NJ, there is also the possibility of some PC based mechanical change that is hampering reliable function. Anyone know what the "custom" touches are?

I'm not sure what SIG means by that either. The issued guns were the P229 Enhanced Elite. The EXACT same gun you can buy at your local shop.....



The guns were the Enhanced Elite P229's with external extractor. Front strap checkering, night sights, SRT trigger, beaver tail, FCS, etc. The issued guns were no different then those sold on the commercial market. The trigger pull was not altered or changed either. They had the standard 10LB/4.5LB pull.

[Trukinjp13]

It would be nice if Sigs custom shop made a machined small parts kit. May be pricey but seems like it sure would help with some of the problems. I just bought a used p226 elite sao. Shoots pretty awesome for being stock. But it would be nice to put some non mim "or good mim" internals in her and just run it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sero Sed Serio]

It would be nice if Sigs custom shop made a machined small parts kit. May be pricey but seems like it sure would help with some of the problems. I just bought a used p226 elite sao. Shoots pretty awesome for being stock. But it would be nice to put some non mim "or good mim" internals in her and just run it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gray Guns was doing this with their P-series action kits. They haven't been available for several years, and Gray Guns say they're revamping the kits, but I've been given an ETA of "SoonTM" for almost a year now. Clearly their focus in on the P320 right now.

I also have a feeling that SIG is still producing machined parts, probably to meet the requirements of certain government contracts. I recently picked up a machined locking insert from MGW this is current production (and made in Isreal), while I believe that most, if not all commercial guns are using the newer MIM locking blocks.

I wonder if SIG just doesn't think there's a market out there for this, or if they're worried about the suggestion that the standard P-series guns could be better. However, I see the P320 taking over as the flagship gun for the company, and I think it would make sense to market the metal frame guns to a different crowd, and using machined guts and tight tolerances seems like a great way to do it.

[Sero Sed Serio]

From the above text..."Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP...."

I wonder if the specs for the problem guns were a significant departure from the specs for the standard legacy Sigs. Could the malfunctions be a result of the departure from standard? This could just be sights, grips or some other change unrelated to mechanical function. Being NJ, there is also the possibility of some PC based mechanical change that is hampering reliable function. Anyone know what the "custom" touches are?

The lawyer and the cynic in me wonders if the "version" developed had some insignificant difference from the commercial guns, like different grip screws, a special serial number, an SRT or lack of SRT, or something like that that would allow SIG to insinuate that the problems were due to a radical design change, with wording that is legally truthful but wholly misleading.

It would be interesting to know the NJSP requirements, and I would assume that somewhere out there they are publically available, possibly even online (like the DSS requirements found here: https://govtribe.com/project/us-department-of-state-firearms-purchase-for-gfe).