Flashlight techniques in low light matches

[Lon]

For those of you that run or attend low light matches (like ToddG or JodyH), what are you seeing from shooters in the match?

I guess what I'm really I getting at is this:

- what is the skill level you are seeing, not with shooting per we, but with the actual technique of using the flashlight?
- Is there a technique which you have seen that works better for the novice (new to flashlight techniques)?

My club does not run "low light" matches. They will let me run my duty/swat gear in the matches and kill the lights for me and a couple of the other officers that show up, but not overall so I'm curious as to what you guys are seeing.

[JodyH]

What I've observed is that people who don't have a default flashlight technique perform poorly.
They end up with the light pointed everywhere except where it needs to be and whatever method they randomly chose when the buzzer went off breaks down quickly after the first shot and goes to hell if they have a malfunction or need to reload.
Those who had a default technique (and actually spent some time working on it) tended to do much better.

My preferred light technique is I shoot strong hand only and index the light against my jaw.
That way my sights and the target are illuminated and the light tends to go where I'm looking.
It also somewhat separates the light from the gun so there's less muzzle sweeping no-shoots (no big deal in comp, could be tragic in real life).
The light is also in a good impact weapon striking position and your weak arm can quickly move to shield your head if need be.
I've never found a two-handed technique that didn't hamper my shooting more than it helped. All of them feel awkward to me. I'm just much more confident shooting SHO.
Downside is, if the badguy shoots the light he shoots you in the face.

Another observation that unless they've attended low light training, the concept of light discipline is totally foreign to them.
I didn't see a single person turn on the light to shoot then off to move. Everybody turned it on and left it on.

[JAD]

Another observation that unless they've attended low light training, the concept of light discipline is totally foreign to them.
I didn't see a single person turn on the light to shoot then off to move. Everybody turned it on and left it on.
Is that worth enforcing, do you think? It is a situation where you get a competitive advantage by doing it 'wrongly,' if you think light discipline is important. I think I do.

[JodyH]

We only have 2 night matches a year and its difficult enough making sure everyones being safe.
We relax on calling procedurals during those matches just so we can devote more attention to safety.
I think adding additional "night only" procedurals would complicate things too much for most shooters.
Also there are a lot if stumble prone clumsy people out there (especially under stress) and forcing them to move in the dark, while on the clock is a safety concern.

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[John Hearne]

I first heard this idea from Clint Smith - you need two flashlight positions, one on each side of the gun. This allows you to maximize the use of cover when using the flashlight.

My general default is the jaw index method for all the reasons Jody mentions above. If I need the light on the right side of the gun I'll shoot Harries but I don't like to stay there.

Both of these suck compared to a good WML. I had suspected this after teaching a low-light block for folks at work (hits were horrible) but didn't realize it fully until I attended Rogers. After you shoot their target system at night with an without a WML, you realize what a farce all the flashlight positions are.

[baddean]

What I've observed is that people who don't have a default flashlight technique perform poorly.
.

Well, that would be me me.

I was an assistant instructor recently at an AR platformed class designed towards its use in a personal defense environment.
The class was designed to run into the evening so we could shoot low light scenarios and the attendees would get to use their rail mounted lights and lasers.
I don't own a black rifle so I opted to shoot the scenarios with my pistol with a hand held light (which I don't train with often). (We always tell students that if they take classes where the instructors don't shoot, find another class.) The above quote decribed me. A video of my efforts would be a good training tool on how not to run a pistol and flashlight in low light situations. The only redeeming quality to my efforts was a couple of good mag changes ( I do train these) while holding the flashlight in my off hand.
I look forward other comments in this thread hoping to settle on a good way to train for this scenario.
I had tried to anchor the light out with pistol holding the pistol SHO over the light in my off hand. It was too unstable and unnatural from anything else I train.
I have since gone to something similar to what JodyH talked about except instead of anchoring at my jaw I have been anchoring at high chest which is where I anchor my off hand to shoot SHO (and train this).
Yes, I know, if the BG shoots the light he shoots me in the chest. Which is worse, chest or face?:eek:
I know this wasn't a competition scenario but this low light training should be incorporated into our training regimen.
Look forward to more ideas.

Well, since John Hearne posted I can see a definate drawback to my high chest anchor. Shooting around a barrier would be a problem. A WML would solve a lot of this.

[JHC]

My preferred light technique is I shoot strong hand only and index the light against my jaw.
That way my sights and the target are illuminated and the light tends to go where I'm looking.
I've never found a two-handed technique that didn't hamper my shooting more than it helped. All of them feel awkward to me. I'm just much more confident shooting SHO.



I too have never found a two handed method with a Surefire (or any rear button flashlight) that didn't just suck. I used to be ok with a C cell maglite cause the side button IMO worked better for bringing the hands together (as Ayoob illustrated in one of his books way back when). So I've defaulted to the jaw with Surefires.

At the recent Adv Tact Handgun course with Ken Hackathorn he was adamant about illuminate to ID/confirm threat then light out - move a few steps and then engage using the night sights but without lighting up again. Going that way, I'm not sure there's a hard reason to stay in that nasty Harries position. I'm going to work with going from jaw index - then light out - move and shooting from a two handed/braced where I just rotate the light down to allow weak/light hand to lend some support to the gun.

I've resisted a pistol mounted light but our night shooting in this class really kicked my ass and humbled me. My son, also in the class, worked with the Harries but he typically carries with a weapon light (RCS holster) so Ken encouraged such shooters to run with WML and light on or off he just burned it down with that X300. Got me thinking. Since I don't yet have a holster for a light (Atomic Dog on the way) I've taken to carrying the X300 in a jacket pocket to snap on if there's lead time.

My club/range forbids any night shooting and the experience was humbling for sure. Glad there is so much ambient light in my world. ;)

[JHC]

I can't get too worked up about the jaw or chest index being a bullet magnet. As Hackathorn was saying, where's the bullet magnet in the Harries? By your face. Where is it with a a weapon mounted light. In front of your face. Of course this was part of his argument for illum-ID-confirm-light out-move and shoot.

[baddean]

I can't get too worked up about the jaw or chest index being a bullet magnet. As Hackathorn was saying, where's the bullet magnet in the Harries? By your face. Where is it with a a weapon mounted light. In front of your face. Of course this was part of his argument for illum-ID-confirm-light out-move and shoot.

I thought of this and agree completely. If we incorporate all of our training the movement should come naturally.

[lcarr]

I first heard this idea from Clint Smith - you need two flashlight positions, one on each side of the gun. This allows you to maximize the use of cover when using the flashlight

Louis Awerbuck teaches exactly the same thing. I ended up choosing both of the positions you did, for the same reasons. My hands are very small, too, making, e.g., the Rogers very awkward.

I also practice the FBI for more flexibility with barriers and obstacles, and to have a technique with which the light is completely divorced from the gun.

Lincoln

P.S. Since this thread was about competition, a few years ago when SureFire started sponsoring the "Dark House" stage at the USPSA Nationals, the jaw hold won.

[jar]

We only have 2 night matches a year and its difficult enough making sure everyones being safe.
We relax on calling procedurals during those matches just so we can devote more attention to safety.
I think adding additional "night only" procedurals would complicate things too much for most shooters.
Also there are a lot if stumble prone clumsy people out there (especially under stress) and forcing them to move in the dark, while on the clock is a safety concern.

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One way I've seen this done is to put up mirrors facing the shooter in between shooting positions. If you don't turn off your light while moving, you get it reflected in your eyes. One of the things I've learned from veteran stage designers and match directors is that it's much better to get the shooter to do what you want via stage design rather than telling them they have to. That's not always possible or practical, but I try to exhaust the possibilities before I put something in a stage procedure.

[HCM]

I just finished a low light training cycle for 600 officers including a block of instruction on hand-held light techniques. We taught the FBI, the Harries, and the Neck Index (as described above by Jody H) and conducted live fire target ID exercises using the lights. These three techniques were chosen because they work with both side button and tail button lights. We have both types in service. They also shot the standard agency qualification in low light using only night sights (a requirement). Most officers are not “shooters” so the normal bell curve of ability and experience were represented.

-
Best results / hits were with the Neck Index. ( my personal choice as well)
The Harries was the most popular. Most who chose the Harries over the Neck Index reported choosing it due to a lack of confidence in shooting SHO.
We had one officer sustain an injury to the support hand from the slide after reversing the hand position on the Harries
Dry practice and sticking to one technique improved performance
Light discipline was the most challenging area. Particularly turning off the light for reloads and immediate action. They were pretty good about securing the light on their person however, some were securing the light while it was on - “sending up the bat signal”
Movement was kept KISS - maintain muzzle discipline and don’t cross your feet.
WML are superior to any hand held light technique. Those that had WML were encouraged to use them.

On a side note, during the “night sight only” qualification we had several shooters whose night fire scores were 10 to 20% higher than their normal daylight scores. I suspect this is due to increased focus on the sights / not “eye sniffing” the target.

[JodyH]

One thing about Harries is if they screw up the sequence they often muzzle sweep their own hand and arm.
Instant match DQ at best, hole in the arm at worst.
Harries also complicates identifying something without pointing a gun at it.

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[John Hearne]

Well, since John Hearne posted I can see a definate drawback to my high chest anchor. Shooting around a barrier would be a problem. A WML would solve a lot of this.

The other advantage of anchoring the light to your jaw is that it tracks with your head - allowing your flashlight to always be pointed where your eyes are oriented.

[ToddG]

- what is the skill level you are seeing, not with shooting per we, but with the actual technique of using the flashlight?

We had some people who were clearly experienced and comfortable shooting/searching in the dark, and whole bunch who were not. Don't know where it comes from, but I saw a ton of shooters put the light in between the left grip and their left palm, facing straight downward, trying to use the spill of the light to illuminate the targets. The problem is that the light actually ends up pointing about 30 degrees behind them, and most of them did little to improve their ability to see while simultaneously backlighting themselves for the opposition.

A lot of others used techniques that essentially lit up the backs of their pistols and not much else. This blinded the shooter, gave no help in locating the targets downrange, and practically washed out their sight picture. The combination led to very bad hits downrange in most cases, not to mention very slow shooting and a many seconds long "huh? wait... dammit" mental process when their flashlight failed to light up what they wanted.


- Is there a technique which you have seen that works better for the novice (new to flashlight techniques)?

I know I'll be excoriated for this, but: turn the light on and keep it on. Light discipline is awesome but it's very hard to do well under stress. The vast majority of people I hear talking about light discipline either throw it out the window when the buzzer goes off or they take five times as long to engage the threats. That's fine when the threats are unmoving paper targets. But unless you can maneuver meaningfully in the dark after the light has been on, "they" know where you are now. We don't freak out about them knowing where we are in daylight, but somehow when it's dark we expect people not only to shoot better, but perform a complicated task like timing their light usage.

Obviously, like most things, it's situational. If you're quietly and slowly searching a building in the dark, then you don't want to be the glowing bullseye target walking down the hallway. But in the scenario described by the stage at our match, your kid is being held at gunpoint right in front of you and you know -- you hear them, your kid tells you, whatever -- there are more down the hallway. If they're going to shoot at you, they'll do it as soon as you blink the light the first time. Unless you're going to leave that position before they're all down, the light probably helps you much more than it helps them.


My general default is the jaw index method for all the reasons Jody mentions above. If I need the light on the right side of the gun I'll shoot Harries but I don't like to stay there.

My default is the jaw index. If I need the light on the other side, I cross my left arm in front of my neck and index the light on the other side of my head. The back of my forearm sort of rests along the side of my head and the light ends up closer to my right temple than my jaw.

[YVK]

At the recent Adv Tact Handgun course with Ken Hackathorn he was adamant about illuminate to ID/confirm threat then light out - move a few steps and then engage using the night sights but without lighting up again.

This is a variation of what Vickers teaches as well, and I have always had a concern that's not been answered to my satisfaction. This would work on a static target. If one turns off the light according to Ken and Larry and target moves, one is back to trying to ID the threat again.

I use jaw index too, reluctantly, but I don't have anything that works better. All of my OWB holsters, except for one, are light-enabled so if I am carrying OWB, it is almost guaranteed to have an X300 on. Hopefully, as technology improves, we'll have other options like recently discussed CT triggerguard lights and lasers.

[fuse]

One way I've seen this done is to put up mirrors facing the shooter in between shooting positions. If you don't turn off your light while moving, you get it reflected in your eyes. One of the things I've learned from veteran stage designers and match directors is that it's much better to get the shooter to do what you want via stage design rather than telling them they have to. That's not always possible or practical, but I try to exhaust the possibilities before I put something in a stage procedure.

Super good idea

[JSGlock34]

Reading this thread reminded me of Todd's Low Light and Target Discrimination practice session at the NRA Range - definitely one of the more valuable clinics I've attended. Arclight's AAR is available here (http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1166).

[SLG]

This is a variation of what Vickers teaches as well, and I have always had a concern that's not been answered to my satisfaction. This would work on a static target. If one turns off the light according to Ken and Larry and target moves, one is back to trying to ID the threat again.


Unless Ken and Larry have changed their teachings on this, they do not allow for the scenario you describe. There is no question that light on, ID/shoot/no shoot, light off, move, works better against a static target. However, if its a shoot target, your light stays on until there is no target left to shoot. If it's a no shoot target, either you are able to just by pass it (usually only in a class), or you will leave the light on it while you deal with it verbally or physically.

Using a light is always a compromise tactic. Some of the time, no light is better. Some of the time, NODS are better (most of the time). Some of the time, nothing works as well as a white light.

Bottom line for your concern is that if you find a person in your light beam, your light stays on until they are dealt with. Light off and move only applies after a shoot, or before a target is located.

Ken and Larry really don't teach light on, ID/shoot/no shoot, light off, move, in the classic sense. They teach a strobe technique that builds all of that into it. Once you have a target though, light stays on until it is dealt with.

There's a lot that I'm leaving out, so I hope that helps.

[HCM]

One way I've seen this done is to put up mirrors facing the shooter in between shooting positions. If you don't turn off your light while moving, you get it reflected in your eyes. One of the things I've learned from veteran stage designers and match directors is that it's much better to get the shooter to do what you want via stage design rather than telling them they have to. That's not always possible or practical, but I try to exhaust the possibilities before I put something in a stage procedure.

I like it. Options for non glass mirrors / reflective materials ?

[Lon]

It sounds like what you are seeing is very similar to what I see at work when we do low light shooting. With some guys it's like watching a monkey fuck a football. Usually those are the shooters that try the harries technique. I try to steer them towards the neck index style, but for whatever reason, some guys just can't get past the whole "I was taught this in the police academy so it must be correct and I can't go against what they taught me, yada, yada, yada.....". Its the same reasoning they use for keeping their empty gun pointed at the target when they reload, but that's another story.

[YVK]

Unless Ken and Larry have changed their teachings on this, they do not allow for the scenario you describe. There is no question that light on, ID/shoot/no shoot, light off, move, works better against a static target. However, if its a shoot target, your light stays on until there is no target left to shoot. If it's a no shoot target, either you are able to just by pass it (usually only in a class), or you will leave the light on it while you deal with it verbally or physically.

Using a light is always a compromise tactic. Some of the time, no light is better. Some of the time, NODS are better (most of the time). Some of the time, nothing works as well as a white light.

Bottom line for your concern is that if you find a person in your light beam, your light stays on until they are dealt with. Light off and move only applies after a shoot, or before a target is located.

Ken and Larry really don't teach light on, ID/shoot/no shoot, light off, move, in the classic sense. They teach a strobe technique that builds all of that into it. Once you have a target though, light stays on until it is dealt with.

There's a lot that I'm leaving out, so I hope that helps.

SLG, it is coming on 4 years since I've trained with Larry and learned the technique, but I am pretty sure he had us ID the target with light, turn it off, move, turn light back on and engage. It is possible that I misunderstood the concept behind the drill, but I do remember "disengaging" the light from target prior to re-engaging it again with light and bullets. In fact, actual sequence was flash to ID the target-move-flash to decide shoot/no shoot-move-shoot. At least one forum member was at that class, and I am sure a lot more people took classes from him, so perhaps they can chime in and let me know if I had completely missed Larry's explanation. Nonetheless, the way I practice is exactly how you described it in that part I quoted in bold.

On a separate note and outside the scope of this discussion (but since it's been mentioned), I have had really hard time shooting a pistol under NODs unless pistol had a laser. Is it how you do it?

[GJM]

I am not SLG, but I worked on night technique at Gunsite and afterwards with a -14, and use goggles flying. Since you focus the goggles for seeing things in the distance, you won't be able to see your pistol sights. An exception may be the new -21 goggles, that I have not used, that have a refocusing ring that you can flip down to see pistol sights.

What I settled on, is the -14 on my non dominant eye. The -14 will ruin your night adaptation of my left eye, but leave my right eye adapted and unencumbered to shoot the handgun or long gun unaided with white light. In the -14, both an IR and visible laser look the same.

So to summarize, -14 on a helmet on my left eye, combo green visible and IR laser on my AR, handgun with laser and WML on handgun. This gives me the ability to move at night and observe, shoot quickly with the AR via the IR thru the -14, the visible laser or T1 unaided, or use the handgun conventionally with white light and/or a visible laser. The -14 can also come off the helmet and snap on the AR behind the T1 in a fixed mount (same as you use with 3x magnifier). Hopefully this is clear as day, and the coyotes targeting our dog don't read PF.

[TheRoland]

I like it. Options for non glass mirrors / reflective materials ?

My club just uses regular old glass mirrors, and places them where they're likely to be swept while moving, but unlikely to be shot.

[JodyH]

My club just uses regular old glass mirrors, and places them where they're likely to be swept while moving, but unlikely to be shot.
Im not sure mirrors and lasers are a good combination. A reflected laser shot to the eye of a competitor, staff or spectator sounds like it could be bad.
Good idea for wml's only but lasers i'm not sure about.

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[JodyH]

Since we're thread drifting a bit, anyone else played with a unmagnified NV monocular?
I used one at a night shoot a while back and thought that with some practice it could work as well for shooting as a jaw indexed white light.
Paired with a laser it has real potential.

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[JHC]

Unless Ken and Larry have changed their teachings on this, they do not allow for the scenario you describe. There is no question that light on, ID/shoot/no shoot, light off, move, works better against a static target. However, if its a shoot target, your light stays on until there is no target left to shoot. If it's a no shoot target, either you are able to just by pass it (usually only in a class), or you will leave the light on it while you deal with it verbally or physically.

Using a light is always a compromise tactic. Some of the time, no light is better. Some of the time, NODS are better (most of the time). Some of the time, nothing works as well as a white light.

Bottom line for your concern is that if you find a person in your light beam, your light stays on until they are dealt with. Light off and move only applies after a shoot, or before a target is located.

Ken and Larry really don't teach light on, ID/shoot/no shoot, light off, move, in the classic sense. They teach a strobe technique that builds all of that into it. Once you have a target though, light stays on until it is dealt with.

There's a lot that I'm leaving out, so I hope that helps.

Well Ken definitely has changed. Since there are rarely conditions of pitch darkness for civilians (homes, parking garages, etc) the idea of the sight is confirmation of the hostile and the movement is like general movement - to be harder to hit. If our 200 lumen X300 decreased the hostile's night vision so much the better but the emphasis was definitely on shooting with light OFF after moving and likely while still moving.

In a scenario as I inferred was presented in Todd's recent night shoot - rescuing a family member we can figure out that light on to shoot is chosen to make that hostage taker shot.

I can see benefit of training both and then applying the right tool based on mindset and decision making skills as discussed in a recent thread about movement in general.

For the purposes of light on - off - move - shoot I worked on something else yesterday I mentioned earlier. I jaw indexed the light while drawing, ID'd target, light off and moved off line and actually kept moving but for the shots instead of SHO I took my light hand and "rolled" it forward with the light in hand but held light with weak hand pointer finger and thumb (bezel pointed due south) and got a very decent support grip on the pistol with the other three fingers and the shooting of rapid strings was much better than SHO - close to complete two hands shooting. It flowed quite easily back up for light on, light off and back to the to the grip.

I think that'll be my default for the time being when using a light other than WML.

[GJM]

Jody, the -14 is not magnified. Seems like the only difference is, I have mine mounted on an OpsCore non-ballistic helmet to keep both hands free -- which allows both hands to be used on handgun or long gun?

[JodyH]

The one I used was a handheld, looked like a small rangefinder.
IR illuminator built in.
I think it'd be a great option for investigating that bump in the night.

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[YVK]

G., Special Forces of many countries have less NV capabilities than your coyote-exterminating setup.

Jody, based on my limited experience with NODs, they really have to be helmet mounted to be used effectively and, ideally, weapons should be laser-enabled. PVS-14 can be used handheld, weapon-mounted on a rifle or helmet-mounted, but I can't see it being used handheld for aimed fire. I have rather seriously looked into NODs awhile ago and decided against them for my purposes because of increased complexity, logistics, lack of good lasers for most of my pistols and cost. I'd rather get reasonably proficient with a flashlight than spend 3-5K on stuff I won't be able to deploy fast enough.

[Lomshek]

No one has mentioned the "Graham" technique using Surefire Combat Rings so I will. Before Surefire ever debuted their rings I experimented with that style and once the rings were available it became my default handheld method.

Reloads and manipulations are easier because the light can't be dropped easily but allows you to use your off hand like normal. Splits and accuracy are worse than normal two handed shooting but better than SHO. The light is indexed pretty good with the muzzle. I found that changing the amount of flashlight butt that protrudes from the ring changes your grip and beam index so you need to fiddle with that to tune the light for you.

ETA - I actually run the light "upside down" from how the instructions show with the ring around my middle finger. That naturally makes the light drop outside of my grip when I need to reload or work the slide and indexes better for me.

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/templates/main/main/GrahamMethod.jpg

[Corey]

I have rather seriously looked into NODs awhile ago and decided against them for my purposes because of increased complexity, logistics, lack of good lasers for most of my pistols and cost. I'd rather get reasonably proficient with a flashlight than spend 3-5K on stuff I won't be able to deploy fast enough.

But NV gear is so cool! What kind of man are you spending money to improve your skills instead of buying cool toys?:p

I learned Harries technique ages ago and have practiced it enough to be pretty good with it but I also know I have stuck with it too long and it is time to evolve. Have been working a little on the jaw index and am switching over to it as my default technique. A club in my area does a night shoot once a year and I did it last year using Harries. The match is in June this year so I have some time to get the jaw index dialed in and see how much of a difference it makes.

[jar]

I like it. Options for non glass mirrors / reflective materials ?

Aluminum foil or a mylar space blanket.


Im not sure mirrors and lasers are a good combination. A reflected laser shot to the eye of a competitor, staff or spectator sounds like it could be bad.
Good idea for wml's only but lasers i'm not sure about.

The matches TheRoland and I were talking about were IDPA, so no lasers were in play. If they are it's definitely a concern. I don't know enough to evaluate the risk.

[ToddG]

No laser sold commercially for use on a private citizen's firearm should be capable of causing damage by momentary exposure to the eye. They're actually regulated by the Food & Drug Administration for that. I'm not suggesting you should stare into the laser hoping to find the secrets of the universe, but the human blink response is adequate to prevent injury if the person isn't purposely trying to look at the emission.

Then again:
http://kategreene.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/warning-laser-6402-300x200.png

[GJM]

DG switch question. My DG switch on the M&P works great, in not activating the light when I don't intend to, but reliably turning the light off when I intend it to. (As an aside, the CT laser on the rear grip of my M&P works equally well by the above standard.) However, with the DG switch on my Glock, while I can activate the light with just one hand, with my normal two hand grip I can't reliably get the light turned on. Anyone else having this problem?

[SLG]

I may be remembering things wrong, in which case I stand corrected. However, I do think that these techniques are pretty situationally dependent, and the amount of ambient light you have will change things every time. Also, I may be confusing CQB stuff with CCW stuff. It has been too long since I've been on a range with either of them.

[Jimichanga]

I'm not suggesting you should stare into the laser hoping to find the secrets of the universe...

Now that was funny. Thanks for the laugh.