WML

[JV_]

I'd like to get a WML, which ones should I be considering? I've eyed a TLR-1s, but I'm open to other options, as long as they don't drain the bank account.

[TGS]

I really liked my TLR-3. Ultra compact, and very bright for its rated lumens. It's brighter than any of the dive lights I have in the same lumen range, and also seemed brighter than a C5L I played around with on a friends gun.

If I were going for top of the line, I'd get an X5L. Awesome piece with a bright light unlike the C5L, very compact, and I've found green lasers way easier to pick up than red.

[orionz06]

The TLR-1s is hard to argue with, bright, durable, and overall pretty decent. I cannot suggest the TLR-3, I am unsure how it made it past the engineering department at Streamlight.

[VolGrad]

Personally, I don't care for the light/laser combos but that's just me.

I have a couple of TLR-1s models and have been very happy with them. However, I'm not a really hard use operator. One of mine lives on a nightstand gun and the other is on one of my carry guns. Both have seen live fire on multiple occasions and still function as intended.

This topic comes up in nearly every defensive pistol course I've taken. Multiple instructors (high speed types) have stated it's SureFire or the Streamlight TLR series or nothing.

If money were no object I'd prob have SureFires. I had a X200b a while back and liked it. The issue for me is limited resources though so for the price of one SureFire I could get 2-3 TLR-1s. It is also notable nearly every major holster maker will make something to accommodate a TLR-1.

For me;

recommended by folks I trust
within budget to allow multiples
easy holster fit



... these all made my decision for TLR-1s easy.

[JDM]

I bought my TRL-1 used for $60 bucks. It's bright, tough, and well built. I like the UI.

It resides on my .357 M&P that serves nightstand duty.

I've been pleased with it, but I've never run it real hard either.

[JV_]

Realistically, I won't run it hard, but I don't want a POS.

[willowofwisp]

I am a huge fan of the Surefire X300, the weapon light is overbuilt and has an awesome track record, also its backed by Surefire's exquisite warranty.

[Lon]

If you don't mind buying used, you can probably get an older x200 for a good price. I like two things about the SF lights vs. the TRL series:
- the way the momentary switch works
- the DG switches

I have an x200a and an x200b. One is used for my duty pistol on SWAT missions and one is currently sitting on my SBR.

Our patrol rifles sport the TRL-1 since they were priced right and we needed to replace the old Pentagon lights that were starting to fail.

I don't think you can go wrong with either the TRL or th SF x200/300 series. I don't have any experience with the Viridian series.

[JV_]

FWIW: I would prefer to buy new.

[JDM]

New? Definitely TLR then.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/711505/streamlight-tlr-1-tactical-illuminator-flashlight-white-led-with-batteries-2-cr123a-lithium-fits-picatinny-or-glock-style-rails-aluminum-matte

$100 new.

I don't think there is a better deal in WMLs anywhere.

[jlw]

It's hard to argue against the TLR-1 "for the money". The Surefire lights are very good lights, and if you can swing the price, go for them, but don't turn you nose up on the TLR-1 in the least.

[Kyle Reese]

X300 all the way, IMHO.

[GJM]

Unless you can guarantee you will never have to shoot with just one hand, seems like you want a light with a remote activation pressure pad like the X300.

[JDM]

The X300 is awesome to be certain, but is this particular type of awesome worth $175 more compared to the streamlight unit?

For my uses, the answer is no.

[willowofwisp]

The X300 is awesome to be certain, but is this particular type of awesome worth $175 more compared to the streamlight unit?

For my uses, the answer is no.

X300's can be had for 220$ or so so I would say 120$ more but still I understand where you are coming from.

Something for the OP, the x300 and TLR-1 have different spills/lumen outputs. I know a few people who prefer x300's on their rifle and TLR-1 on their handguns due to the spill pattern.

[Mike Honcho]

I won't use a flashlight for "serious" purpose other than Surefire. I've been using the x300 on my pistols for years, and would say that I'd take a used x300 (they can be had used for pretty decent prices, the x200s even more so) over another light brand new, any day of the week and twice on Sunday. My carbine light is a Mini-Scout, my pocket light is an E2 Outdoorsman, and my spare truck light is a 6P. I've got a C2 and another 6P floating around, and I've owned several more. Their warranty and customer service is second to none, and their product is superior IMO (except for their helmet light, but every company can put out a stinker once in a while, it's not a bad admin light).

[DocGKR]

x300, accept no substitute.

[jmjames]

Personally, I don't care for the light/laser combos but that's just me.

I am curious why that is? I'm also looking into the laser and light options out there. Everything the folks here are saying says, "lasers are a really good idea" and at the same time, a WML also seems like a really good idea too. So it makes sense (to me) that having a combo unit is a good idea. If you don't opt for a combo unit, it seems to me that a laser + handheld light makes more sense than a WML, due to the advantages of laser. I'm curious since this is something that I'll be making decisions on in the next few months.

J.Ja

[F-Trooper05]

I had a TLR-2 for a while. It fell off my gun on two separate occasions while shooting. I replaced it with an X300 and haven't looked back.

[orionz06]

That visor guy has a good write up, I can't add much to it:

https://docs.google.com/View?id=dg8rvhdd_26jz66whch



I will say that from a CC standpoint I do not believe there is a size difference worth discussing.

[JV_]

That visor guy has a good write up, I can't add much to it:Thanks, I was just reading it. I also found a few threads mentioning that the X300 is easier to remove quickly, that seems like a nice feature. But I'm wondering if it's worth 2X the price...

[orionz06]

I think the mount of the X300 is much more versatile but I have a hard time thinking I will ever need to take it off in a hurry.

[JV_]

I think the mount of the X300 is much more versatile but I have a hard time thinking I will ever need to take it off in a hurry.

Perhaps a match where a light is needed on one stage, and not the next? That's where I'm thinking it could be helpful, but I don't know how fast/slow the TLR-1s is either...

[orionz06]

If you are removing/installing the light on the clock, X300. If you have 3 seconds to spare it does not matter, IMHO.

[JV_]

If you have 3 seconds to spare it does not matter, IMHO.OK. Then I'm probably going to stick with the TLR-1s, if it sucks, I'll send it back and get the 300.

[JV_]

Before I pull the trigger, where can I get an x300 for $220?

[JV_]

OK. Then I'm probably going to stick with the TLR-1s, if it sucks, I'll send it back and get the 300.

Yea, disregard this. willowofwisp hooked me up with a place that makes the price difference a no-brainer, thanks. I have an X300 inbound.

[JConn]

Good choice. If you had said something yesterday I would of let you mess with mine.

[VolGrad]

I am curious why that is? I'm also looking into the laser and light options out there. Everything the folks here are saying says, "lasers are a really good idea" and at the same time, a WML also seems like a really good idea too. So it makes sense (to me) that having a combo unit is a good idea. If you don't opt for a combo unit, it seems to me that a laser + handheld light makes more sense than a WML, due to the advantages of laser. I'm curious since this is something that I'll be making decisions on in the next few months.

J.Ja
I like lights. I like lasers ... in theory. I just prefer them to be separate units, mostly for the sake of simplicity.

[Chris Rhines]

Are there any pistol WMLs with a tape switch, other than the Surefire?

[jmjames]

I like lights. I like lasers ... in theory. I just prefer them to be separate units, mostly for the sake of simplicity.

That makes sense, thanks! The more I think about it, I'd imagine that in a situation where I wanted either, fiddling with a small unit that has multiple buttons, or worse a small unit that has one multi-purpose button, is liable to prove to be more trouble than what I'd get out of it. Losing time due to button issues negates a lot of the advantages of either.

I could definitely see myself with a WML for nightstand use, where the range is almost guaranteed to be "can't miss" anyways, and a laser for carry, especially since I am virtually never in an extremely poorly lit situation anyways; if I need a firearm out of the house, it will be at a gas station, ATM, bank, etc. where there is lighting and a WML probably won't help me to see/identify a target.

J.Ja

[Lon]

Are there any pistol WMLs with a tape switch, other than the Surefire?

Streamlight has them, although I know nothing first hand about them, I've just seen them in catalogs.

[Lon]

Streamlight has them, although I know nothing first hand about them, I've just seen them in catalogs.

Just looked. Apparently they make them only for Glocks.

[JodyH]

I don't like grip activated pressure switches on my handguns.
It makes maintaining good light discipline very difficult.
You see a lot more "white light ND's" from tape switch users than rocker switch or button users.
I prefer a rocker switch or button I can activate with my indexed trigger finger or my support thumb.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

I like lights. I like lasers ... in theory. I just prefer them to be separate units, mostly for the sake of simplicity.

It doesn't get much simpler than one button to activate everything.
I can't see a situation where having both a light and laser at the same time would be detrimental.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[jmjames]

I can't see a situation where having both a light and laser at the same time would be detrimental.

As someone who's not used either, wouldn't those super-bright WMLs wash out the laser to the point where it would be hard to see? If daylight can wash it out greatly, I could see those blinding lights in a dark room with eyes used to the dark making the laser pretty tough to find.

J.Ja

[Lon]

As someone who's not used either, wouldn't those super-bright WMLs wash out the laser to the point where it would be hard to see?


No they don't. I shot a x200/CTC combo on my duty gun for years in our local indoor matches. I'd kill all the lights so it was pitch black in the range when I started. No wash out.

[HCM]

Perhaps a match where a light is needed on one stage, and not the next? That's where I'm thinking it could be helpful, but I don't know how fast/slow the TLR-1s is either...

I believe mounting and dismounting the WML should be done on only on a cleared / unloaded weapon. For serious use the light goes on the weapon and stays there, A holster that will accommodate the weapon with the WML attached is a must. Holster availability is a definitely a consideration.

I have a TLR-1 I acquired with a used gun in 2008. It hasn't seen much hard use but it outlasted an Insight Procyon I was issued at work in the same time frame.

The X-300 is the best - however, a few observations on the mounting system- SF includes both a standard latch and a semi- permanent 'rail lock" system for the X300. We've found it necessary to use the rail lock in order to mount the X300 on our issued P-229R DAK's. The rail on the 229R is just a little too short to allow the X300 to lock on with the standard latch. I haven't seen the lamps die on any X300's but my SRT guys have broken off a a few of the mounting rails... of course if I issued them bowling balls they would break 'em.....

[HCM]

I don't like grip activated pressure switches on my handguns.
It makes maintaining good light discipline very difficult.
You see a lot more "white light ND's" from tape switch users than rocker switch or button users.
I prefer a rocker switch or button I can activate with my indexed trigger finger or my support thumb.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

This mirrors my experience. There is also an ongoing debate about the safety of grip activated pressure switches under stress which mirrors the debate over the SERPA holster system ....

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/plano/headlines/20101119-gun-mounted-flashlight-blamed-in-fatal-plano-police-shooting.ece

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20110125-fatal-plano-police-shooting-highlights-dangers-of-gun-flashlight-combo.ece

[JodyH]

As someone who's not used either, wouldn't those super-bright WMLs wash out the laser to the point where it would be hard to see? If daylight can wash it out greatly, I could see those blinding lights in a dark room with eyes used to the dark making the laser pretty tough to find.

J.Ja
I use the Viridian C5L light/laser combo and can easily see the green laser with the light on.
It could possibly be an issue with a weak red laser and a super bright 225+ lumen light, but that would be a crappily engineered combo in the first place.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

I use the Viridian C5L light/laser combo and can easily see the green laser with the light on.
It could possibly be an issue with a weak red laser and a super bright 225+ lumen light, but that would be a crappily engineered combo in the first place.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

What he said.

Green lasers are on a whole different level of visibility than red. If red vs green laser visibility was compared to firepower, it'd be like switching from a 6 shot S&W Model 19 wheelgun to S&W M&P.

Big difference....at least to my eyes.

[jmjames]

I use the Viridian C5L light/laser combo and can easily see the green laser with the light on.

This post, and some of your other posts on the Viridian units (along with a few by other people) have me pretty sold on it. I'll ask a few questions in an appropriate thread.

Thanks for the information!

J.Ja

[Lon]

This mirrors my experience. There is also an ongoing debate about the safety of grip activated pressure switches under stress which mirrors the debate over the SERPA holster system ....

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/plano/headlines/20101119-gun-mounted-flashlight-blamed-in-fatal-plano-police-shooting.ece

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20110125-fatal-plano-police-shooting-highlights-dangers-of-gun-flashlight-combo.ece

Personally, I think this argument is flawed (actually its pure BS). It's not the lights fault, its the fault of the idiot behind the trigger who put his finger on the trigger when it shouldn't have been. He violated one of the cardinal safety rules and killed someone. I use the DG switch on my duty gun. You don't use your trigger finger to activate it, so blaming the switch is BS. It's easy to blame equipment for a training or safety mistake. "it's not my fault, it's the fault of this inanimate piece of equipment". They are just trying to minimize the Sgts PERSONAL responsibility and the department's vicarious liability in any way they can.

It's the same thing as what NYPD did when they banned the Kahr K9 from the authorized list of pistols because the 7 pound trigger is too LIGHT and caused dozens of officers to fire their pistols when they shouldn't have. What pure unadulterated BS.

[JodyH]

To be clear.
Im discussing light discipline and inadvertent light activation being a bigger issue with tape switches.
Its more difficult to maintain light discipline with grip pressure than it is with a separate rocker switch or button.

The "squeeze to activate" contributing to negligent firearm discharge is a whole different topic.
And one that will infuriate H&K P7 Shooters.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

[Lon]

To be clear.
Im discussing light discipline and inadvertent light activation being a bigger issue with tape switches.
Its more difficult to maintain light discipline with grip pressure than it is with a separate rocker switch or button.

The "squeeze to activate" contributing to negligent firearm discharge is a whole different topic.
And one that will infuriate H&K P7 Shooters.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

I understand where your coming from and agree its a whole different topic. My post was aimed at the Dallas shooting, etc.

[ToddG]

re: tape/DG switches versus manual operation, it's absolutely true that light ADs are easier with the DG switch. But it's also true that unintentional/unwanted lack of light (sort of a "darkness AD") occurs far more with the rocker switches when the shooter's grip changes, etc. I had this happen myself just last night at the KSTG match. After performing a reload with a threat target nearby that needed to be finished, I failed to activate the light again when coming around to shoot. The tape switches on the grip are far more likely to have unintentional activation than the DG style switching, especially if you purposely tailor your grip not to activate the light.

re: DG switches are like SERPAs, there are a ton of problems with that comparison. The SERPA has you moving your trigger finger in the immediate area of the trigger which on enough occasions has resulted in the finger going onto the trigger with enough force that a lot of us don't want anything to do with the SERPA anymore. The DG switch simply involves increasing grip pressure. Now I'll certainly agree that if your finger is on the trigger when you squeeze your grip to activate the light, it will be far more likely to cause an AD. It's also important to note that the people screaming loudest about this supposed problem are the ones who just accidentally shot someone and start blaming the light for their error.

re: combined laser/light, I'm not a huge fan of them either, but primarily because of their size and bulk. I don't often have a light mounted to my gun, but with something like Lasergrips I can always have a laser. I can carry a handheld light as a poor second option (and/or backup) to a WML, but I cannot use a handheld laser to help aim. Furthermore, there are definitely instances in which I might want the laser to come on just before I break a shot without signaling my exact location to the world with a massive 2-billion lumen flashlight, as well. Sure, the laser diode is visible along a very narrow arc and the flash from the rounds going off produces a very short duration locator, but it's nothing compared to having the light on constantly for a few seconds while I am and fire.

Having said that, if someone could make something this size that was durable and had both a laser aiming module and a strong enough light to identify someone at 10yd, I'd be all over it:
http://www.lasersightpro.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_68/1096971365_4239874090_full.jpg

[EmanP]

Firstly I've had 2 TLR's break and the company wasn't nearly as good about it as Surefire has been. X300's are so much better. Even getting them on and off are easier. Secondly with the laser modules built in, the offset is huge and when you consider the distances that you're working with it's completely inpractical. You thought offset was tough with AR's or open guns, this is way way worse. With one of these if you try to have your POI match your POA at some given distance, say 15 yards, anything other than that distance it's going to be way off and you have to remember by how much at what distance. The angles are going to be so acute given the distances you're working with it's going to be pretty low, or pretty high. It's not a gradual angle at all. So the only practical solution is to have your laser parallel your fixed sights which means you're always 2.5" off or whatever the offset it. To me that kinda makes it useless. I tried it for awhile and it was too much work and only screwed me up.

[jmjames]

Having said that, if someone could make something this size that was durable and had both a laser aiming module and a strong enough light to identify someone at 10yd, I'd be all over it:
http://www.lasersightpro.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_68/1096971365_4239874090_full.jpg

Something that I really do not understand is the "need" for giant, high powered lights. I know that they have their advantages, like being able to blind an attacker. But for something like what Todd's talking about here... target ID and enough illumination to locate and aim at the target, do you really need 100+ lumens? I think that's a big gap in the WML market. There are little tiny keychain-sized lights which produce almost enough power for that purpose that you can get them for $5 at WalMart. Why can't someone make something like that with the durability and mount/switch options for a firearm?

J.Ja

[SmokeJumper]

I too am not a big fan of the light/laser combo, might be worth looking at if someone makes them a tad bit smaller in size with good light output still. For me, either the Streamlight TLR-1s or SureFire X300. The SF is more as you all know, but is a solid piece of kit. If the light is for a handgun that could be used later on with a carbine, I'd go SF due to more options for switching depending on use/preference. The DG switch is a nice option, not 100% sure on it as yet, still testing out the one I have to make an opinion. I use the Streamlight TLR-1s at work, cause that's what we bought and it has been abused badly. The Streamlight will hold up based on my personal experiences with it and they do have a new switch out for it for Glock pistol use that might be worth checking out if you're set on a DG type switch on a pistol. As for warranty/repair issues, bot companies with take care of you without a hitch from my experiences.

[JodyH]

Currently this is as small as it gets (the C5L light/laser is smaller than a TLR-3 WML).
100 lumen LED light, 5mW green laser and a single CR2 battery.
Until battery technology catches up, I don't think it can get any smaller and have any kind of useful run time.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMAG0014.jpg

[SmokeJumper]

Currently this is as small as it gets (the C5L light/laser is smaller than a TLR-3 WML).
100 lumen LED light, 5mW green laser and a single CR2 battery.
Until battery technology catches up, I don't think it can get any smaller and have any kind of useful run time.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMAG0014.jpg

That is a smaller package, wonder if many holster makers accommodate it?

[JodyH]

That is a smaller package, wonder if many holster makers accommodate it?
Nope.
Dale Fricke did custom make a Archangel AIWB for my wifes Glock 19/C5L that she uses quite a bit.
But nobody has anything "off the shelf" and very few makers have one as a pattern.
I had to send Dale my C5L so he could use it as a mold.

[GJM]

1) The Dale Fricke Gideon is my single favorite OWB holster of all time. It is retentive, yet presents well, is very trim and has a minimum belt footprint. Since Dale's shop is near where I spend time in MT, I got to drop and meet him, and he is a class act.

2) Relative to Todd's point above about failing to activate the light with two hands on the pistol, I read an AAR on a Rogers night shoot from a PF member, and he said he was unable to make the times on target with two hands without a remote switch. I also wouldn't underestimate the importance of a remote DG type switch to operate the light with just one hand -- injured, dog on a leash, need to open a door, and on and on.

[JodyH]

2) Relative to Todd's point above about failing to activate the light with two hands on the pistol, I read an AAR on a Rogers night shoot from a PF member, and he said he was unable to make the times on target with two hands without a remote switch. I also wouldn't underestimate the importance of a remote DG type switch to operate the light with just one hand -- injured, dog on a leash, need to open a door, and on and on.
As to the Rogers low light.
Do any of the targets require identification (shoot, no shoot) prior to engaging?
Nothing against the Rogers test, but if it was dark enough to require a light to shoot, and I knew a verified threat was in the immediate area I'd have my gun in hand and my weak thumb or indexed trigger finger on the button.
I can get the light on and a shot off from low or compressed ready as fast as I can shoot normally from the same positions.
From the draw might be .5 sec. slower.

I attended a Trident (Jeff Gonzales) course which had a low light session.
The guys with tape switches were constantly having issues with light discipline, especially as the stress was ratcheted up.
As the stress was increased, the tighter they gripped the pistol, the more frequent the lights came on unintentionally.
As you can imagine, light discipline was a big deal to a former SEAL.

One-handed operation of the C5L buttons or my TLR-1 and TLR-3 rockers can be easily done with a indexed trigger finger.

[JRL]

That is a smaller package, wonder if many holster makers accommodate it?

Viridian lists a few holsters that you can buy directly through the site,

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22

and also links to several other manufacturers that offer compatible models:

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/aftermarketHolsters.php

If I ever convince myself to get the X5L Gen 2, I'll probably be making use of that list.

[SouthNarc]

Does anyone have first hand experience with the Gen 2 X5L? That one is kind of interesting and I'd like to maybe get one for green laser comparison in AMIS. Unless it's a piece of shit.

[John Hearne]

FWIW, I've used X300's on my duty pistol and duty rifle since they first came out. The lights have been 100% I am not gentle with my gear. I also use the DG switch on my pistol as my thumbs are shorter than most. In order to activate the light without the DG, I have to totally compromise my firing grip. As much as I like my pistol mounted light, if you took away the DG switch you might as well take the light off as well.

There are folks out there familiar with the Tx shooting. Without getting into details, nobody was surprised that the individual involved had an ND. Simply being incompetent with firearms is not enough reason to be fired from a law enforcement agency.

[HCM]

FWIW, I've used X300's on my duty pistol and duty rifle since they first came out. The lights have been 100% I am not gentle with my gear. I also use the DG switch on my pistol as my thumbs are shorter than most. In order to activate the light without the DG, I have to totally compromise my firing grip. As much as I like my pistol mounted light, if you took away the DG switch you might as well take the light off as well.

There are folks out there familiar with the Tx shooting. Without getting into details, nobody was surprised that the individual involved had an ND. Simply being incompetent with firearms is not enough reason to be fired from a law enforcement agency.

John Hearne :

Surefire has repaired or replaced every mount we have broken at no cost - they make the best WML out there bar none and they stand behind their product. This is our reality.

I ran a DG type switch for years on an HK USPc with an old SF dedicated WML and I have DG switch for my G17 house gun. My Agency no longer authorizes DG orpressue type switches on WML for pistols.

Re: the TX shooting, I concur with you 100%. Despite training and selection efforts, Law enforcement agencies, mine included, have a bell curve of ability/competence like any other population.