Thumbing the Hammer

[TGS]

So I was having a conversation tonight in which I realized that thumbing the hammer is apparently not viewed as the norm.


Thumbing the fucking hammer as an additional safety good grief. Just stick to the Nerf Enforcer if you really think that is practical.


So my piece of shit duty gun has a hammer. I have holstered and unholstered it in duty holsters and IWB off duty holster many thousands of times. I've never once had the trigger move at all in all those times and so I've never understood the need to thumb the Hammer


Thumbing the hammer shows a lack of confidence in your firearm and also shows lack of knowledge of how the firearm works. If you need "that extra layer," then what you really need is a new gun or more knowledge. If you thumb the hammer, you're doing it to ensure the hammer doesn't move while you're doing whatever you're doing. There's only three ways the hammer is going to move though. Either 1) squeezing the trigger, 2) manually finger fucking the hammer or 3) racking the slide. If anything else causes it to move, then the firearm is faulty. So if you aren't racking the slide, squeezing the trigger, or manually cocking the hammer, why would you put your finger over the hammer while holstering? There's 2 reasons someone would do that 1) fear of the firearm which drives the person to do stupid things to "absolutely ensure safety" 2) lack of knowledge of how the firearm actually works (not loading, unloading, firing, etc, but knowing the 8 cycles of function). Someone who is afraid, when confronted will become defensive and claim "you can never be too safe with a firearm."

In all four military and LE basic/academy level firearms courses I've been through (2 USMC, 1 FLETC, 1 my agency), thumbing the hammer has been emphasized, in addition to every follow-on training or private-sector class I've taken.

These negative comments (apparently lacking any critical thinking ability (http://www.gunnuts.net/category/pistol-training-com/)whatsoever) towards the practice of thumbing the hammer all came from current Border Patrol agents. There's some good articles on Pistol-Training.com addressing the gun communities aversion to embracing safe practices (or tools to improve safety) as it's some sort of unconscious smite on ones manliness to think critically about safety (http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/06/27/thinking-critically-on-safety/) (Another good article by Tim Chandler).

So, what gives? Is thumbing the hammer not as widespread a practice as I thought it was? Is it actually viewed as unpopular, or not taught anymore?

To be completely transparent, this conversation was spurred by the post made by Rob Pincus today trashing the Gadget.

[Jay Cunningham]

Instead of saying "wow there are really a lot of retarded fucking morons out there" I try to instead tell myself that there are a lot of people who do not understand risk, how to assess it, and how to mitigate it.

[TGS]

I got nothing to add, but "wow." No wonder I wake up every day to a new batch of comments about how stupid I am. :)

It must be enraging.......but at the same time, how stupid you are should be viewed as a metric for how smart you actually are.


Instead of saying "wow there are really a lot of retarded fucking morons out there" I try to instead tell myself that there are a lot of people who do not understand risk, how to assess it, and how to mitigate it.

Well, that's why I actually tried explaining it.......only to get the trigger finger photo of Hoot from Blackhawk Down in response......

[Jay Cunningham]

Yeah... that fucking BHD quote.

Why did they have to include that in an otherwise good film?

[AMC]

I got nothing to add, but "wow." No wonder I wake up every day to a new batch of comments about how stupid I am. :)

You should never have given Pincus your email address.;) In all seriousness, this is typical gun bravado bullshit. "This is mah safety, sir." It's worse with cops, too. They aren't gun people, mostly, but many believe they are because BADGE. Same type of stupid shit I get when I express my wish that I could carry a 9mm instead of my department .40. "A 9mm????? Why would you even think that? We should be carryin' .45's...1911's even!!!" All from guys who buy every new blaster that hits the market, but only shoot twice a year for quals.

[HCM]

So I was having a conversation tonight in which I realized that thumbing the hammer is apparently not viewed as the norm.







In all four military and LE basic/academy level firearms courses I've been through (2 USMC, 1 FLETC, 1 my agency), thumbing the hammer has been emphasized, in addition to every follow-on training or private-sector class I've taken.

These negative comments (apparently lacking any critical thinking ability (http://www.gunnuts.net/category/pistol-training-com/)whatsoever) towards the practice of thumbing the hammer all came from current Border Patrol agents. There's some good articles on Pistol-Training.com addressing the gun communities aversion to embracing safe practices (or tools to improve safety) as it's some sort of unconscious smite on ones manliness to think critically about safety (http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/06/27/thinking-critically-on-safety/) (Another good article by Tim Chandler).

So, what gives? Is thumbing the hammer not as widespread a practice as I thought it was? Is it actually viewed as unpopular, or not taught anymore?

To be completely transparent, this conversation was spurred by the post made by Rob Pincus today trashing the Gadget.

Not to derail but the quality of BP Agents, has suffered in recent years in direct proportion to the agency's rapid expansion. The days when it was presumed a BPA could shoot, whatever their other failings have been replaced by "no Agent left behind."

Now that my old man rant is over, I can assure you it is possible to ND even a long pull DAO like a Beretta 96D Brigadier into your leg if you don't thumb check as you re-holster.

[HCM]

I got nothing to add, but "wow." No wonder I wake up every day to a new batch of comments about how stupid I am. :)

Tom,

I'm not sure why, but I would venture a guess these commenters are the same sort who believe "Alcohol, because no great story ever started with a glass of milk"

16618

[TGS]

The conversation has finally come to a screeching halt.

Still curious to hear from someone on this board about why they don't think thumbing the hammer is a good idea, what the aversion is, or why it shouldn't be taught.

I'm sure there's someone here, even if it isn't the usual contrarian-for-no-other-reason-than-being-contrarian assholes.

[LSP552]

Some people will never know what they don't know. Blissfully ignorant.....they just don't know it and logic will rarely change that.

And no...I can't think of a single reason not to control the hammer.

[StraitR]

people do stupid things to "absolutely ensure safety".


"lack of knowledge of how the firearm actually works (not loading, unloading, firing, etc, but knowing the 8 cycles of function). Someone who is afraid, when confronted will become defensive and claim "you can never be too safe with a firearm."


LOL

16622

[OnionsAndDragons]

Ummmmm.... Wow.

I moved to a hammer gun just for that reason. I'm pretty sure a lot of other folks here have too. I didn't realize it could be a controversial subject; but I probably walk away with my head shaking slowly before getting to this level of idiotic gun conversation these days.


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[Dog Guy]

When assessing a risk mitigation gizmo or procedure, it's worth asking what the cost of the mitigation is in terms of time, effort, complexity, and dollars. This comes from a background in rescue, including high angle rescue where we have more than our share of controversy regarding what is and isn't safe. Sometimes the complexity of the mitigation brings on a whole new route to failure and you only trade one risk for another. Some mitigations make no real difference or are only done due to dogma. I look at thumbing the hammer as having virtually no cost in terms of time, effort, complexity, or dollars yet it can reliably prevent an error or accident which has potentially catastrophic consequences and which is known to occur. Why wouldn't you do it?

[YVK]

So I was having a conversation tonight in which I realized that thumbing the hammer is apparently not viewed as the norm...

So if it is a Border Control and a hammer gun, it has got to be an H&K P2000. I am not going to idolize that gun but if someone referred to it as a piece of shit, I'd stop listening to anything he says about guns and gun handling.

[Coyotesfan97]

I was trained to thumb the hammer of my Model 66 by the Phoenix FIs who taught recruits how to shoot. Why they'd teach us something so apparently worthless. Oh yeah they'd seen thumb breaks insert themselves into trigger guard guards while the gun was being reholstered and Officers shooting themselves in the leg with a DA revolver. Who'da thunk that?

It carried over to my SIGs and even my gadgetless Glocks. What a moron I am apparently that I wasted all my time continuing a safety habit on a striker fired pistol with no hammer. But now I have Gadgets because EMOTIONAL RESPONSE and apparently a lack of confidence in my training and gun handling ability. At least I do if I read the comments on Pincus's thread and I read them all.

What a bunch of derp but I'm apparently a TLG cultist. ( and proud of it!) :cool:

[peterb]

I look at thumbing the hammer as having virtually no cost in terms of time, effort, complexity, or dollars yet it can reliably prevent an error or accident which has potentially catastrophic consequences and which is known to occur. Why wouldn't you do it?

Agree. Heck, after reading about it, I started thumbing the back plate of my Glock before I got my Gadget just because it seemed like a useful habit to build for any gun I might carry.

[GhastlyTT]

Internet elitists they are. It's why I like this forum. The people that post here tend to have common sense and a realistic perspective.

Last month I picked up a shield for cheap, my first SFA. TDAs my whole life until now. I thumb the back of my Shield just like my Berettas because it's so ingrained, albeit useless. Time wasted exercising this "pointless" habit: Zero... I'm indeed hoping for a Gadget for the Shield "soon".

[BobLoblaw]

If you thumb the hammer, you should procreate and pass it on.

[WobblyPossum]

If it's something they never learned they haven't been doing it. They haven't ND'd in the time they haven't been thumbing the hammer so they're "safe." If this technique they didn't know about makes them "safer" that means they weren't as "safe" as they thought before. This threatens their egos so the technique is stupid.


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[BillSWPA]

If the people who have a problem with putting the thumb over the hammer during reholstering are paid to carry a gun, that is scary.

I don't worry about it with my Glocks, but if the gun has a hammer, my thumb is on it during reholstering.



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[TGS]

There should still be no rush to re holster that loaded gun. You have every chance and time to do what is necessary to re holster safely. As a result having an ND is solely because of your own negligent actions. There is absolutely no reason or excuse for a cover garment or drawstring, or booger hook causing your ND at a comp. Its on you, not your cloths, your equipment, or what have you. As a for carrying again you shouldn't reholster until the threat is good and dead, and then you probably wont reholster but rather just drop you gun on the ground.

What the fuck is going on in Artesia? This isn't just one agent I'm referencing in this thread.......

[blues]

What the fuck is going on in Artesia? This isn't just one agent I'm referencing in this thread.......

It's the water. ;)

[Talionis]

So if it is a Border Control and a hammer gun, it has got to be an H&K P2000. I am not going to idolize that gun but if someone referred to it as a piece of shit, I'd stop listening to anything he says about guns and gun handling.

Slight derail, but since it is Border Patrol, that P2000 would be in .40, and is detested by every BP agent I've talked to. They don't hate it because it's a bad gun, they hate it because it is a small/light gun paired with the hot .40 Border Patrol load. It's just not even remotely enjoyable to shoot, and that is coming from guys who love shooting.

[HCM]

What the fuck is going on in Artesia? This isn't just one agent I'm referencing in this thread.......

So what happens when you are trying to reholster as fast as possible as you are kicking some dude who is fighting with your partner so you can go hands on ?

Not a theoretical question.

[YVK]

Slight derail, but since it is Border Patrol, that P2000 would be in .40, and is detested by every BP agent I've talked to. They don't hate it because it's a bad gun, they hate it because it is a small/light gun paired with the hot .40 Border Patrol load. It's just not even remotely enjoyable to shoot, and that is coming from guys who love shooting.

I was told that HK sponsored shooters can't say anything like that about any HK pistols.

Yes, I agree, I sold my .357 P2000 within 2 months of buying. But I thought it was because I am old and weak. Those quotes that TGS posted sounded like they came from men of steel.

[Robinson]

I have to admit, when I saw the first post in this thread I thought it was about thumb-COCKING the hammer and I thought to myself "wait a minute...".

Especially now that I carry AIWB I always control the hammer on my 1911 while holstering even though I know the thumb safety is engaged.

[JustOneGun]

Certainly a lot of logic errors in the quotes the OP cited. It is easy to dismiss this type of comment.

But I think it is fair to talk about how putting the thumb on the hammer or Gadget can help and how it can be useless. They do not make the gun safe. They can be used during the holster process to remove one way the gun can go off when it's not supposed to. That will work, if you make it a procedure and follow it. Put another way, is there a potential problem in saying, "Now that I have The Gadget I will switch and carry my Glock AIWB"?
Maybe.

Every time I hear that I wonder what safety procedures the person used with their pistol to avoid shooting themselves in the thigh, ass, pelvis, etc when carrying other than AIWB. Often I find the person using the TDA or DA pistol for the hammer or a Glock is functionally using the same, "Luck" as the person spitting out silly gun bravado as quoted by the OP. For that person I agree, the hammer or gadget is functionally useless.

For a person using a good safety procedure but feels the hammer or gadget can make them a bit more safe, they should buy it. As long as the Gadget doesn't change the function of the gun in a negative way, why not use it? When Is the G43 gadget coming out??? LOL!

We kind of merge the idea of the gadget and hammer for the safety discussion. There is a class of shooter that uses the hammer over the Glock for just that reason. For some of them they will freely admit that they shoot the Glock better but carry a hammer for safety. They've short changed their ability to perform during a gunfight for safety. For them we can all cheer, "Buy a Gadget! Buy a Gadget!"

[taadski]

Still curious to hear from someone on this board about why they don't think thumbing the hammer is a good idea, what the aversion is, or why it shouldn't be taught.

I'm sure there's someone here, even if it isn't the usual contrarian-for-no-other-reason-than-being-contrarian assholes.


Ask and it shall be delivered...

[JDD]

The conversation has finally come to a screeching halt.

Still curious to hear from someone on this board about why they don't think thumbing the hammer is a good idea, what the aversion is, or why it shouldn't be taught.

I'm sure there's someone here, even if it isn't the usual contrarian-for-no-other-reason-than-being-contrarian assholes.

Well I can't give you an exact reason, but I can contextualize it.

I like thumb check, I have practiced it for awhile now. When I was down at Glynco and they taught a slightly different (better I think) technique, I had a moment of resistance. [thumb check with thumb on both hammer, and back of the slide to ensure slide is in battery as well as hammer is controlled/down]. Even knowing right off that it made more sense, I reacted negatively for some reason... and that was coming from a believer in the technique.

The other facet is that picking a post by a prominent figure condemning the gadget as pointless as a place to promote the thumb check is like going to a vegan market and setting up a stall to sell veal and bacon... they are not your target audience, and they are probably not going to spend a whole lot of time critically thinking about the value of the technique or the gadget necessary to make it work on a Glock.

I freely admit that I have not given as much critical thinking to some techniques advocated by Todd, even though I make an effort to approach gun related things with critical thinking and the like. Knowing that, I can't overly fault someone who likes another instructor and takes what they say without a huge amount of introspection.

[Clusterfrack]

...this conversation was spurred by the post made by Rob Pincus today trashing the Gadget.

I haven't seen that post. Does Pincus have any credibility? Training people to purposely flinch and raise their hands before shooting is the stupidest thing I have ever seen in firearms training.

[Jay Cunningham]

We don't need to turn this into an attack thread on an individual.

[Clusterfrack]

We don't need to turn this into an attack thread on an individual.

Sorry. Point taken.

[Jay Cunningham]

Thank you.

[Jared]

I swear I read, maybe back in the 90's a Mas Ayoob article where he recommended thumbing the back of the slide or the hammer on semi autos to keep tight fitting holsters from pushing them out of battery. Sadly I can't recall if the side benefit, or the main benefit, of it being an additional safety layer was mentioned or not. He does have an article on the gadget in this months Handgunner mag at any rate.

As to the officers comments, maybe I do fear my gun little bit. I definitely fear the fact that if I do something stupid or have a nonperfect moment it can put a bullet in me. So I thumb the hammer in addition to my normal holstering procedures. Should I decide to carry a Glock, it'll get a Gadget. The fact that a G43 version should come eventually is playing a heavy factor as I mull over the possibility of a G43 vs a Shield in the future.

I honestly do not know why these individuals are responding to this topic in the way they are, so I'll just say that if they're comfortable with their safety procedures then good on them, as for me, I'll just keep sticking my thumb on that hammer.

[BobM]

I swear I read, maybe back in the 90's a Mas Ayoob article where he recommended thumbing the back of the slide or the hammer on semi autos to keep tight fitting holsters from pushing them out of battery. Sadly I can't recall if the side benefit, or the main benefit, of it being an additional safety layer was mentioned or not. He does have an article on the gadget in this months Handgunner mag at any rate.

As to the officers comments, maybe I do fear my gun little bit. I definitely fear the fact that if I do something stupid or have a nonperfect moment it can put a bullet in me. So I thumb the hammer in addition to my normal holstering procedures. Should I decide to carry a Glock, it'll get a Gadget. The fact that a G43 version should come eventually is playing a heavy factor as I mull over the possibility of a G43 vs a Shield in the future.

I honestly do not know why these individuals are responding to this topic in the way they are, so I'll just say that if they're comfortable with their safety procedures then good on them, as for me, I'll just keep sticking my thumb on that hammer.

I'm pretty sure Mas wrote something along that line. The reasoning was also that one would feel the hammer start to move if something was in the trigger guard. I started doing that with service revolvers and my 5906 after reading that and missed that option after being issued an M&P in the mid 2000s

[serialsolver]

I swear I read, maybe back in the 90's a Mas Ayoob article where he recommended thumbing the back of the slide or the hammer on semi autos to keep tight fitting holsters from pushing them out of battery. Sadly I can't recall if the side benefit, or the main benefit, of it being an additional safety layer was mentioned or not. He does have an article on the gadget in this months Handgunner mag at any rate.

As to the officers comments, maybe I do fear my gun little bit. I definitely fear the fact that if I do something stupid or have a nonperfect moment it can put a bullet in me. So I thumb the hammer in addition to my normal holstering procedures. Should I decide to carry a Glock, it'll get a Gadget. The fact that a G43 version should come eventually is playing a heavy factor as I mull over the possibility of a G43 vs a Shield in the future.

I honestly do not know why these individuals are responding to this topic in the way they are, so I'll just say that if they're comfortable with their safety procedures then good on them, as for me, I'll just keep sticking my thumb on that hammer.

I taught this technique back in 1995 when we carried the sig p220. It was possible (I could do it as a demonstration) to cock the p220 hammer by not lining up the pistol correctly in the holster and forcing the pistol into the holster.

Yeah pistols should not be shoved into holsters but cops find themselves with guns out of the holster and in awkward positions were reholstering isn't easy. Sitting in a patrol car is one example.

When we went to glocks I still taught that technique so the officers were sure the pistol was correctly in the holster so the retention devices of the holster would work properly.


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