Knife as a SD weapon - aftermath

[Dismas316]

Wanted to ask some of you out there, especially experienced LE and trainers. (Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, or those that actually teach edge weapon classes) Has anyone have documentation or a news feed about a SD situation where the person defended themselves with a knife against a bad guy? We read pretty regularly about SD with a gun, but I can't remember ever reading about someone being saved because they carried a knife. Not saying never happens but I just don't ever recall hearing about it.

My thought about this is that if I'm carrying a knife for SD, and I'm attacked and start stabbing someone, "stopping the threat" is nothing like a gun, it may be 5,10, 15 or more stab wounds before the threat might be stopped. Now I have stabbed someone multiple times and would imagine blood everywhere. A prosecutor could have a field day, and so would a jury.

Point being is very unlikely that taking down a bg with a knife doesn't happen with one or two stab wounds, even if it's justified, it could look like the total oppostie. (Asumming the attack is a pretty motivated individual, drug induced etc)

I'm curious if any of you in LE has come upon a situation like that and what was it like for the good guy to prevail. As I asked, I never seem to read a newsfeed or hear about this happening. Some of you trainers who teach this I would assume you've seen this.

Just seems to me that SD with a knife (outside your home) would be pretty difficult to prove your not using excessive force and after the bloodbath it sure would appear that you are the problem. Curious as to you LEO's ever roll up on this situation, what are your first thoughts and how does it play out?

[okie john]

Tagged.

[45dotACP]

Varg Freeborn would be the guy to listen to about this. He's on the Primary and Secondary podcast.

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[SAWBONES]

I've thought along the very same lines as the OP, and though I daily carry a dedicated (not for general use or chores) edged weapon, I've hoped that, should I ever need it in a genuine primary self-protection role, it would be sufficiently effective to deter an adversary early on, without requiring too much mess.

Of course there's no predicting how anything might go.

Survival first, explanations afterward.

[BehindBlueI's]

We had one fairly recently, my sergeant was lead on it. In broad strokes, a stranger was probably intoxicated and acting like an a-hole to employees in a retail location. For some reason he elected to verbally threaten and aggressively approach a customer as he entered the door during the argument. When aggressive a-hole approached him, the customer gut stabbed him. A-hole retreated then came at him again, and got gut stabbed again. Then again. A-hole comes at him a 4th time and the customer told him something like "I've stabbed you several times, don't you see you're bleeding? Maybe you should sit down and call 911 for an ambulance." A-hole leaves, collapses, and survives after ER treatment.

The case was not filed because the A-hole was completely uncooperative with the investigation. As such, it was never referred to the prosecutor because the "victim" would not give a statement. I'm unsure how it would have played out had it been referred as the customer used deadly force against a verbal threat and approach, there were no glaring disparity of force issues (roughly same size, age, one on one confrontation) but the A-hole was likely chemically altered.

I have long suspected juries react differently to a knife, however the prosecutors I've spoken with say they've seen no pattern indicating as much. If it's a factor, it's a remote one, at least locally.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://fox43.com/2017/05/12/da-no-charges-in-fatal-september-2016-stabbing-of-lancaster-man/

Here's a case.

[Gater]

If you have not seen already, I recall some good discussion in this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18978-Firsthand-account-of-defensive-use-of-a-folding-knife-in-a-Hawaii-hotel

[El Cid]

The first thing that comes to mind is to have an idea where on the bad guy to stab rather than just wildly striking until the threat ends. Defoor's superb description of "timers and switches" applies to knives as well as firearms. We spend a good amount of time focusing on the best place to shoot at bad guy - we should do the same with a knife. Train on a dummy, target, etc. Use mental rehearsal to visualize the knife strikes. What's the phrase on the Clinch Pock t-shirt? "Because you can't tourniquet a taint" or words to that effect. If you can get training from a SME, jump at the chance.

Yes it will every bloody, personal, and ugly. Beats being dead though.

As for real world examples I recall a LEO recently used a knife to thwart an attack - can't recall where. I also remember many years ago reading an article by Mas Ayoob about a man (Filipino I think) who had to defend himself with edged weapons. Because he was very good with balisongs he destroyed his attacker. There were so many wounds on the bad guy he was prosecuted as they thought it was overkill. Ayoob had him demo his technique in court on a heavy bag and they saw his skill delivered many, many cuts in a very short amount of time. He was acquitted.

[Dismas316]

http://fox43.com/2017/05/12/da-no-charges-in-fatal-september-2016-stabbing-of-lancaster-man/

Here's a case.

Talk about good timing (well not so much for the people involved), looks like this just happened recently. Thanks for linking that, pretty good example of how it can work our in your favor, good thing their were witnesses and camera's.


If you have not seen already, I recall some good discussion in this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18978-Firsthand-account-of-defensive-use-of-a-folding-knife-in-a-Hawaii-hotel

Thanks, I actually now remember reading this story when it was posted, forgotten about it. That was in interesting one for sure.

What El Cid just posted about above is along the lines that I was thinking. Good thing they had Ayobb to testify because that is exactly the reaction that I think 99% of the general public who never have even thought about self defense issues would have. Anything more than a stab or two would be "overkill"

[Doc_Glock]

On Jocko podcast recently, Harley Flanagan talked about his jail time and prosecution in relation to his defense using a knife when jumped by four or so guys and in fear of his life.

I don't know the details of the case, but the aftermath was a pretty big deal.

[voodoo_man]

Most of the LEO uses I know of we're not covered by the news.

Every single situation is completely different with "defensive" use of force, especially deadly force. I know of one particular incident a guy (LE) I train with was in where he took a blade and went ear to ear through the BGs eyes. Of course they were fighting over a pistol and the blade was the only tool he had ability to deploy. No charges not even a raised eyebrow.

It is very rare that a person will use a blade against a person who is not armed. However it is not outside the realm of possibilities.

For LE the blade is a get off me or get off my gun tool most of the time. Especially when considering many cases I've personally seen have a LEO using a blade against the BGs hands which were on his pistol first and then moving on to something more vital, but usually only when that BG doesn't let go of the gun right away

[AlwaysLearning]

A few years ago a Washington state college student used a knife in self defense. He was suspended from school and faced criminal charges. The jury acquitted him and he was eventually reinstated by his college:
http://www.dailyuw.com/news/article_b925246c-069d-11e6-93dc-470a42dbb486.html

[HCM]

WV Trooper who used a knife against a suspect trying to drown him:

http://knifenews.com/cop-reaches-for-knife-in-fight-for-his-life/

Some background reading:

http://knifenews.com/knife-cops/

[HCM]

Varg Freeborn would be the guy to listen to about this. He's on the Primary and Secondary podcast.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


http://youtu.be/R-Gamd-jOMs

[Dismas316]

On Jocko podcast recently, Harley Flanagan talked about his jail time and prosecution in relation to his defense using a knife when jumped by four or so guys and in fear of his life.

I don't know the details of the case, but the aftermath was a pretty big deal.

I guess it's ok for me to derail my own thread but listening to the beginning of this podcast and wow!! Dude Harley Flanagan has a hellava story, interesting. Very long but hope to get through this in the next couple days.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

On Jocko podcast recently, Harley Flanagan talked about his jail time and prosecution in relation to his defense using a knife when jumped by four or so guys and in fear of his life.

I don't know the details of the case, but the aftermath was a pretty big deal.

I can honestly say that I never thought I would see the Cro-Mags fight come up at Pistol-Forum.

[Dismas316]

Varg Freeborn would be the guy to listen to about this. He's on the Primary and Secondary podcast.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk



http://youtu.be/R-Gamd-jOMs

Very interesting perspective and background. His story is exactly what my question centers around. Apparently, an obvious situation of self defense with a knife but he still went to prison, but later a judge dismissed his case. Varg has a pretty unique take on a lot of these issues. Certainly can understand given his experience.

[ssb]

I've seen lots of knife assaults in the context of domestic violence, along with other weapons of opportunity. Some people had valid self-defense claims, others did not but attempted to assert it anyway. Regardless of the weapon it's all about articulation: on the scene, in any potential interview (phone a friend...), and later through your attorney. Having said that, domestic violence is a messy context for a would-be defender and probably not as directly relevant.

I've listened to Varg Freeborn's story. The lesson there is: context matters a lot. In broad strokes, my impression is that he was living in a bad lifestyle (not to be confused with criminal) and got lumped in with the trash surrounding him -- by the police, the state, and later the jury. The generalized "don't go stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things" advice is applicable here: if you're put in that position, your actions really need to demonstrate that you're a legitimate victim.

ETA: expanding on the Varg Freeborn "lumped in with the trash" line.

You will be categorized and stereotyped -- by the responding and investigating officers, the DA's office, the media, and perhaps others. Police in particular frequently categorize people: citizens, criminals, "one of us" being the three main categories. The DA and the media also have their own respective tropes.

I've been in a traffic stop, as an example. I was armed, presented my permit with my driver's license, answered "yes" to the "do you have it with you now" question, and was ordered out of the vehicle and disarmed. On my person were: a J-Frame, a Clinch Pick, and a speed strip; my pepper spray was visible on the keys (taken out of the ignition and placed on the dash). My demeanor was polite and throughout the encounter, I was cooperative with the disarm, and I made no mention of what I do; I wasn't forthcoming beyond the information needed for the traffic stop (I was on my way to work, didn't have much patience for the task force dude with his interdiction game, didn't consent to a search).

The treatment/attitude I received was along the lines of the "overly-prepared to go to the movies" trope I've read elsewhere. By p-f standards, I was prepared to get kilt on the streets. The officers were particularly curious about the Clinch Pick, and it's been driving some thinking re: converting to a Ka Bar TDI because that's at least something they're probably familiar with (somewhat prevalent with LEOs here).

What if the context wasn't a traffic stop, but a shooting/stabbing/both? How do you think it's going to change if you're plainly doing stupid when the interaction takes place? What about if the impression you give off is that of a criminal (call-back to the "cops tend to categorize people' above)? What image you present will have an effect on your treatment.

I'm not saying to make your decision re: what/if to carry based on "what's a cop/the DA/the media going to think of me," but I am saying that you should consider what overall image you present (to an extent -- I'd avoid carrying shuriken). Most of the time I've dealt with LE while armed, the treatment has been nothing but courteous. That particular day I got treated like a Batman wannabe. Frankly, I think the local media would run with that angle regardless of how I dressed if what I carried became public knowledge after an incident.

Just some considerations/ramblings, take them for what they're worth.

[Caballoflaco]

^^^^

I was known by the police in a small college town in Alabama as "that dude that has a benchmade" after being asked if I had any weapons at a traffic stop. They'd say "hey you're that dude with the benchmade aren't you?" if I ran into them at a gas station or the grocery store. Cheese and rice.... You'd think I pulled the damn thing out of a stone in the forest or something to hear them talking about it.

[MK11]

I was in a defensive folder class along with several LEOs, one of whom said, "If I stop you and I see a rifle in the car, ok, we'll get to that. But seeing a knife makes me want to know why you have it and what you plan to do with it."

Doubly odd to say because an unsecured long gun in a vehicle is illegal in this state, while a folder or fixed blade four inches or under is fine to carry.

[Rex G]

The treatment/attitude I received was along the lines of the "overly-prepared to go to the movies" trope I've read elsewhere. By p-f standards, I was prepared to get kilt on the streets. The officers were particularly curious about the Clinch Pick, and it's been driving some thinking re: converting to a Ka Bar TDI because that's at least something they're probably familiar with (somewhat prevalent with LEOs here).


If having to explain the "why" when asked about a Clinch Pick, I would say it was designed by an then-active LEO, and trainer of LEOs, who is now honorably retired, and a highly-respected trainer. There is no way I would give up a Clinch Pick, in favor of a derp-ish TDI, but then, that is just my personal feeling. (I stopped carrying my original-type Clinch Pick when the sheath cracked*, and actually carry no fixed-blades regularly at this point in time, though I am plotting and olanning to start doing so, again.)

*Sitting and squatting placed tension on the kydex (or whatever thermally-molded plastic) sheath material. Finally, it could not take the cumulative stress.

[ssb]

There is no way I would give up a Clinch Pick, in favor of a derp-ish TDI, but then, that is just my personal feeling.

Why do you consider a TDI to be derp-ish?

[Rex G]

Why do you consider a TDI to be derp-ish?

1. It seems to be, well, a solution in search of a problem. Or, perhaps, a gimmick.

2. It seems to have been desgined to be drawn like a pistol, but I draw a pistol in such a way that my trigger finger is indexed along the frame and my middle finger is firmly indexed against the bottom of the trigger guard. Drawing the TDI in this indexed manner will require re-gripping the weapon after the draw, for optimal handling. I strongly disagree with this.

3. I have seen many LEOs wearing their TDI blades perfectly presented as an offer for an opponent to grab. Sure enough, an Austin PD officer was stabbed in the neck, and nearly died, after a criminal accepted the "offer."

4. A TDI requires a bit much real estate on one's belt. (I wore my Clinch Pick vertical, rather than angled, and have generally done the sme with other knives.)

In contrast, the Clinch Pick (and Disciple) are designed to be used in a manner common with one's other pointed objects, such as batons, flashlights, pens, etc. If in an environment where one cannot have a blade, then a stout pen, or other improvised weapon, can be used in the same point-driven manner.

I will concede that I do like a non-linear-shaped blade style that some consider derp-ish, the karambit, but I the karambit as a very useful hook, that just happens to also have a point, and one or two edges. (Plus, many who criticize the karambit think it is only for slashing. Actually, a proper-designed karambit is primarily for thrusting.)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I was in a defensive folder class along with several LEOs, one of whom said, "If I stop you and I see a rifle in the car, ok, we'll get to that. But seeing a knife makes me want to know why you have it and what you plan to do with it."

Doubly odd to say because an unsecured long gun in a vehicle is illegal in this state, while a folder or fixed blade four inches or under is fine to carry.

That's because Norman Bates didn't dress up as his mother and hose Janet Leigh with gunfire. Now, I'm serious. The use of a knife is close up and personal - plus being bloody. A person carrying a significant knife is advertising that they are ready for that horror show. That suggests a regular person is a touch off. Just my opinion from reading some of the violence literature. Folks prefer violence at some distance and neater.

[ssb]

1. It seems to be, well, a solution in search of a problem. Or, perhaps, a gimmick.

2. It seems to have been desgined to be drawn like a pistol, but I draw a pistol in such a way that my trigger finger is indexed along the frame and my middle finger is firmly indexed against the bottom of the trigger guard. Drawing the TDI in this indexed manner will require re-gripping the weapon after the draw, for optimal handling. I strongly disagree with this.

3. I have seen many LEOs wearing their TDI blades perfectly presented as an offer for an opponent to grab. Sure enough, an Austin PD officer was stabbed in the neck, and nearly died, after a criminal accepted the "offer."

4. A TDI requires a bit much real estate on one's belt. (I wore my Clinch Pick vertical, rather than angled, and have generally done the sme with other knives.)

In contrast, the Clinch Pick (and Disciple) are designed to be used in a manner common with one's other pointed objects, such as batons, flashlights, pens, etc. If in an environment where one cannot have a blade, then a stout pen, or other improvised weapon, can be used in the same point-driven manner.

I will concede that I do like a non-linear-shaped blade style that some consider derp-ish, the karambit, but I the karambit as a very useful hook, that just happens to also have a point, and one or two edges. (Plus, many who criticize the karambit think it is only for slashing. Actually, a proper-designed karambit is primarily for thrusting.)

Fair enough. Thanks for the input. I have a PHLster sheath that fixes the OEM sheath issue, though the knife does take up more space than I'd like. As a CCW guy I am less concerned about the retention issue than a LEO carrying it on a duty belt may be -- it's really no different than my OWB-carried Clinch Pick at that point.

Paul Sharp made some good points about the TDI's use here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20972-KBAR-TDI/page2).

[nalesq]

Another "aftermath" issue I would be concerned about is the possibility of infection from all the nasty fluids that would be generated from an entangled knife altercation. It would be really lame to win the stabby part of a knife fight only to get hepatitis or something.

Does anyone know if anyone has ever been infected this way?


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[JCS]

Another "aftermath" issue I would be concerned about is the possibility of infection from all the nasty fluids that would be generated from an entangled knife altercation. It would be really lame to win the stabby part of a knife fight only to get hepatitis or something.

Does anyone know if anyone has ever been infected this way?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Couldn't the same be said for an entangled gun fight?

[blues]

Couldn't the same be said for an entangled gun fight?

When we had mandatory Hep B vaccines due to the risk of cuts in the course of making an arrest or, for example, the search of a Haitian freighter for concealed dope or weapons, we were told that even saliva in the eye could be enough. Don't know as I haven't kept up with the topic over the years.

[Zincwarrior]

A-hole comes at him a 4th time and the customer told him something like "I've stabbed you several times, don't you see you're bleeding? Maybe you should sit down and call 911 for an ambulance."
.

Am I the only person who finds this extremely humorous?

[That Guy]

That actually sounds really familiar. I seem to recall someone training people to do just that - after using a knife, point out to the threat that they are bleeding, that they need medical help, that they need to stop fighting.

No bloody idea who exactly taught that, of course. Just something I read, and forgot the details long ago.

[nalesq]

Couldn't the same be said for an entangled gun fight?

Perhaps, but part of the premise here is that many more holes get made (and therefore more fluids are spilled externally) when knives are involved.


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[BillSWPA]

http://fox43.com/2017/05/12/da-no-charges-in-fatal-september-2016-stabbing-of-lancaster-man/

Here's a case.

That is a very good article.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Just seems to me that SD with a knife (outside your home) would be pretty difficult to prove your not using excessive force and after the bloodbath it sure would appear that you are the problem. Curious as to you LEO's ever roll up on this situation, what are your first thoughts and how does it play out?

Given that prosecutors have attempted to articulate that carrying a gun with a 10-pound trigger pull and firing 15-rounds is excessive force...because you had to use 150 pounds of force to fire those bullets. - ANYTHING can potentially be considered excessive force in our current world.

But there are a couple of things to bear in mind here that are really pertinent to your question.

Excessive force implies that lethal force was unnecessary. In which case - use of a knife, gun, screwdriver, etc. can all be construed as excessive force by a prosecutor. This is why it is exceptionally important to problem solve beyond carry X, Y, or Z tool.

Tools are just that - tools. Application and use of them, must be conducted by you, the tool user. And that is why one of the most critical parts of self-defense training is something like Craig Douglas's Managing Unknown Contacts (MUC). MUC, in particular, is built around identifying, avoiding, and preparing for a potential criminal assault. And it's built around a solid, but simple, verbal base, simple motion base, identification techniques, and has escalation scaled in.

For instance, I'm walking home one evening from my office. I spot a suspicious looking dude (sumdood) and he sees me and starts toward me. Well outside of touching distance, I might place my hands upward, palms out, and say, "Can you stop right there for me?" And then I'm running on a loop, "No, sorry, I don't have anything. No, sorry." - Option 1) Sumdood decides he doesn't need my help and wanders off to bother someone else. Option 2) Sumdood pauses, reaches up and touches his facial hair (pre-assault cue, called "grooming"), and then takes another step forward.

My response to Option 2) At this point I bark a command at him, "HEY! BACK UP!" I may repeat this command once or twice more, loudly and authoritatively. Saying something like, "BACK THE FUCK UP!"

Option 3) Is he backs up and decides to go do something else. Option 4) He closes distance and continues for me.

My response to Option 4) Now I might choose to initiate if I believe assault is imminent, an eye jab, a quick boxing jab, or maybe I have some pepper spray and I deploy that and spray him. (I may also choose not to initiate).

He closes and swings at me. And now we're entangled and fighting. -

At this point he was 1) Ignored commands, 2) Invaded personal space, 3) Begun to assault.

At this point - my job is two fold, Get Him Off and Keep Him Off. Entangled, he is bigger and stronger than me (not difficult since I'm all of 5'7" and I can only bench about 150). I pull my knife and use it to get him off of me. And then use it to keep it off of me. In the process, he gets stabbed a few times and bleeds out.

Am I going to jail? That night, I'm for sure going to jail. But when it comes time to give my statement, with my attorney present - I can articulate what happened.

"He approached me. Ignored my command to stay back from me. He gave non-verbal pre-assault cues recognized by professionals as being common pre-assault cues. He continued to ignore my commands when I raised my voice to get him to stop he did not. I pepper sprayed him as he continued towards me. After this he closed and began punching me in the head. During the assault, I did everything in my power to get him off of me and keep him off of me, I was defending myself from physical assault."

If you have to stab him 35 times to get him to stop trying to crack your skull...then you have to stab him 35-times. Will it look excessive? Maybe. But once you contextually place your scenario within the framework of all the other stuff that you did to recognize, avoid, stop, the fight before you needed a knife? Then they are more likely to see that you did everything reasonable in your power to NOT be excessively violent. And you were left with no choice to the contrary.

If you do not have the background/training in how to contextually place your situation - then you need to go get that training, ASAP. It's not just about how you deploy X, Y, or Z tool it's why and when you deploy it.

[Hambo]

I wouldn't count on an LEO being able to ID a TDI knife as being marketed toward them, If they do, and you're not LE, they might consider you a wannabe.

As for carrying a knife, I see a lot of knives clipped to pockets here. Everything from tacticool to replaceable razor blade variety, as well as multitools and fixed blades on belts. It's also legal to carry a knife with a FL CWP. I doubt that most LEOs here give them a second glance if you're not a problem child, but this is a carry friendly area.

[RevolverRob]

I wouldn't count on an LEO being able to ID a TDI knife as being marketed toward them, If they do, and you're not LE, they might consider you a wannabe.

As for carrying a knife, I see a lot of knives clipped to pockets here. Everything from tacticool to replaceable razor blade variety, as well as multitools and fixed blades on belts. It's also legal to carry a knife with a FL CWP. I doubt that most LEOs here give them a second glance if you're not a problem child, but this is a carry friendly area.

As a general FYI -

I have carried a knife virtually every day since I was about 10 years old. I've interacted with lots of cops, security, etc. Including some situations where I was the problem child. And never once did I have an officer worry about my knife. Be it fixed blade, folder, etc. Maybe it's just the culture, but even here in Chicago, cops, security guards, hell the security at the Chinese Consulate, do not seem to give two flips about any knives I might be carrying.

In 20+ years of carrying a knife - the only person to ever look at me crossways for carrying a knife, was an exceptionally liberal female coworker from New Jersey. "Why are you carrying a knife?" - She asked after I produced my pocket knife when she commented, "I need something to cut thread in my shoe that is giving me a blister." I stared at her...as she used the knife to cut her thread..."Uhh...that's why I carry a knife." - 20 years, only time I recall anyone saying anything about my knife.

[Totem Polar]

^^^OT, but, that is the 8th wonder of the world: people who act incredulous, and give you the dick-forehead look because you have a knife...that they only know about because they're currently borrowing it from you to cut something that needed cutting. Common and astonishing, really.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've had a Spyderco clipped on my pocket for years and years in a college environment. I used it to open packages in front of lots of folks - was this normalizing? Other faculty and staff had similar. One colleague was an ex-SEAL (yes, for real) and we talked about the knives. I did have a student from a bladed culture overseas ask if it was defense. He had a clue. The purpose did come out, when I hurt my hand in a knife class and had to wear a stablizing thing (like a Carpal's gadget) for awhile. When asked why - I said it was from knife class. No one really expressed disdain. You see clips on pockets all the time in TX. Even in my exercise/lecture class for old farts with weight/cardiac/diabetes problems, there was males with clips.

[UNK]

misquote

[UNK]

Given that prosecutors have attempted to articulate that carrying a gun with a 10-pound trigger pull and firing 15-rounds is excessive force...because you had to use 150 pounds of force to fire those bullets. - ANYTHING can potentially be considered excessive force in our current world.

But there are a couple of things to bear in mind here that are really pertinent to your question.

Excessive force implies that lethal force was unnecessary. In which case - use of a knife, gun, screwdriver, etc. can all be construed as excessive force by a prosecutor. This is why it is exceptionally important to problem solve beyond carry X, Y, or Z tool.

Tools are just that - tools. Application and use of them, must be conducted by you, the tool user. And that is why one of the most critical parts of self-defense training is something like Craig Douglas's Managing Unknown Contacts (MUC). MUC, in particular, is built around identifying, avoiding, and preparing for a potential criminal assault. And it's built around a solid, but simple, verbal base, simple motion base, identification techniques, and has escalation scaled in.

For instance, I'm walking home one evening from my office. I spot a suspicious looking dude (sumdood) and he sees me and starts toward me. Well outside of touching distance, I might place my hands upward, palms out, and say, "Can you stop right there for me?" And then I'm running on a loop, "No, sorry, I don't have anything. No, sorry." - Option 1) Sumdood decides he doesn't need my help and wanders off to bother someone else. Option 2) Sumdood pauses, reaches up and touches his facial hair (pre-assault cue, called "grooming"), and then takes another step forward.

My response to Option 2) At this point I bark a command at him, "HEY! BACK UP!" I may repeat this command once or twice more, loudly and authoritatively. Saying something like, "BACK THE FUCK UP!"

Option 3) Is he backs up and decides to go do something else. Option 4) He closes distance and continues for me.

My response to Option 4) Now I might choose to initiate if I believe assault is imminent, an eye jab, a quick boxing jab, or maybe I have some pepper spray and I deploy that and spray him. (I may also choose not to initiate).

He closes and swings at me. And now we're entangled and fighting. -

At this point he was 1) Ignored commands, 2) Invaded personal space, 3) Begun to assault.

At this point - my job is two fold, Get Him Off and Keep Him Off. Entangled, he is bigger and stronger than me (not difficult since I'm all of 5'7" and I can only bench about 150). I pull my knife and use it to get him off of me. And then use it to keep it off of me. In the process, he gets stabbed a few times and bleeds out.

Am I going to jail? That night, I'm for sure going to jail. But when it comes time to give my statement, with my attorney present - I can articulate what happened.

"He approached me. Ignored my command to stay back from me. He gave non-verbal pre-assault cues recognized by professionals as being common pre-assault cues. He continued to ignore my commands when I raised my voice to get him to stop he did not. I pepper sprayed him as he continued towards me. After this he closed and began punching me in the head. During the assault, I did everything in my power to get him off of me and keep him off of me, I was defending myself from physical assault."

If you have to stab him 35 times to get him to stop trying to crack your skull...then you have to stab him 35-times. Will it look excessive? Maybe. But once you contextually place your scenario within the framework of all the other stuff that you did to recognize, avoid, stop, the fight before you needed a knife? Then they are more likely to see that you did everything reasonable in your power to NOT be excessively violent. And you were left with no choice to the contrary.

If you do not have the background/training in how to contextually place your situation - then you need to go get that training, ASAP. It's not just about how you deploy X, Y, or Z tool it's why and when you deploy it.

This is an excellent post. To bad I could only like it once. I can think of several people I will be sharing this with.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

As a general FYI -

I have carried a knife virtually every day since I was about 10 years old. I've interacted with lots of cops, security, etc. Including some situations where I was the problem child. And never once did I have an officer worry about my knife. Be it fixed blade, folder, etc. Maybe it's just the culture, but even here in Chicago, cops, security guards, hell the security at the Chinese Consulate, do not seem to give two flips about any knives I might be carrying.

In 20+ years of carrying a knife - the only person to ever look at me crossways for carrying a knife, was an exceptionally liberal female coworker from New Jersey. "Why are you carrying a knife?" - She asked after I produced my pocket knife when she commented, "I need something to cut thread in my shoe that is giving me a blister." I stared at her...as she used the knife to cut her thread..."Uhh...that's why I carry a knife." - 20 years, only time I recall anyone saying anything about my knife.a

This is similar to my experience. One person, once, made a big deal about a knife I was carrying.

It was a Victorinox FARMER. He asked why I was carrying a weapon, while borrowing it to cut something.

I can't remember my first knife very clearly. My dad would have given it to me, when I was around six or eight years old.

Been thirty and a few years since then. One crybaby. Never had anyone else look sideways.

Used my clinch pick half a million times in public...occasionally gets a wow, followed by me pointing out how a blade that points towards my thumb is SUPER convenient for careful trim work. Never had anyone enquire further, and I'm pretty sure that's because I use my clinch pick constantly, for careful trim work. I would never give it up, just because it's extraordinarily practical.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Totem Polar]

I can't remember my first knife very clearly. My dad would have given it to me, when I was around six or eight years old.

Been thirty and a few years since then. One crybaby. Never had anyone else look sideways.


To the first sentence: same deal, same age.

To the second: Clearly you need to spend more time around academia. The unbelievable bedwetting upon seeing a slipjoint, bone handled folder. *Nobody* sees the clinch pick; that's why I have the bone handled folder.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yeah, my experience with academia has either been as a student, or at parties - my sister is a prof at a big university here. I'm the freakshow they occasionally gawk at.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[okie john]

To the first sentence: same deal, same age.

To the second: Clearly you need to spend more time around academia. The unbelievable bedwetting upon seeing a slipjoint, bone handled folder. *Nobody* sees the clinch pick; that's why I have the bone handled folder.

I spent three years working in academia. The people who choose careers there are the intellectual equivalent of an ingrown toenail: a vestige of something that was once useful but now just makes it hard to walk.


Okie John

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Such generalizations are ignorant. I could insult you personally but why bother. This me being polite as to respond to our recent discussion of being more professional.

Edged weapons is a technical forum, IIRC - so you contributed nothing.

[RevolverRob]

Such generalizations are ignorant.

I don't know, given the efforts of my University Administration to undermine my value as a scientist, researcher, educator, and person lately...maybe he isn't so wrong...


Edged weapons is a technical forum, IIRC - so you contributed nothing.

That part I concede. Since this is the Edged Weapons forum and we're discussing Knives as SD tools...I got this in the mail today, Sentinel Gear Senka - Reverse Edge G10- no metal in blade or sheath. Super light, very stabby, a nice NPE tool.

16830

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Such generalizations are ignorant. I could insult you personally but why bother. This me being polite as to respond to our recent discussion of being more professional.

Edged weapons is a technical forum, IIRC - so you contributed nothing.

Ouch! But I get where you are coming from - there's a difference between the CULTURE of academia and the FUNCTION of academia.

For example, if you would like to know the maximum amount of information possible about the staging of Shakespearian plays during the Victorian era and the role of Victorian mode and modus in the interpretation of Shakespeare, I have a sibling with whom you should DEFINITELY consult.

Granted, there hasn't been a ton of demand for that specific information. But presumably academia is one environment where even the extremes of research, without obvious immediate tangible benefit, are pursued. And personally I do value that, even though I have no difficulty laughing at some of the personalities involved. For example, a local English Lit Ph.D and poet who was so impressed with his knowledge of poetry that he decided (again at a party I to which I was carelessly invited) also extended to such related fields as guitar amplification.

Turns out there was someone present with a more visceral (and technical as it turns out) knowledge of guitar amplification, and that individual, whoever it was, had some thoughts he chose to share, much to the delight of the relatively newly acquainted girlfriend of the poet.

So I am very much sympathetic to the pure pursuit of knowledge that academia at least purports to represent, but also somewhat sympathetic to the reaction some individual academics generate.

[Joe in PNG]

For example, a local English Lit Ph.D and poet who was so impressed with his knowledge of poetry that he decided (again at a party I to which I was carelessly invited) also extended to such related fields as guitar amplification.

Turns out there was someone present with a more visceral (and technical as it turns out) knowledge of guitar amplification, and that individual, whoever it was, had some thoughts he chose to share, much to the delight of the relatively newly acquainted girlfriend of the poet.

As an amateur amp builder, this would have been a fun conversation to follow.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, without going detail-crazy...turns out that some non-guitarists think that guitarists who like tube amps don't know how important it is that the last piece of gear before the ear is a tube amp, but before that doesn't matter, since only the last link in the chain will truly define the sound. The fact that some guitarists have been unable to replicate the sound they want by using solid state gear is evidence for their ease of manipulation (by...Big Tube, I assume).

Do not waste money on tube pre-amps. They are not important, and overdriving tubes in the early stages to get tube breakup is not worth doing, because that can easily be replicated with solid state gear. What can't be replicated is the final stage of amplification, so always use solid state pre-amps with tube power amps.

This remains true at stadium shows, where the PA system is solid-state. That, however, is different.

No details on the difference were forthcoming.

Also unavailable were references to which solid state pre-amps were effective at replicating tube breakup tones. Or what algorithms might be used to generate a good approximation of the organic tube overdrive so many people like.


IIRC the only references supplied during the argument were videos submitted by one party, detailing the role of tube feedback mid-concert, mid-solo, and the deliberate application of 60 cycle hum in a big, indulgent guitar salute by a shirtless, obnoxious showoff.

Vaguely recollect the recently acquired girlfriend was more interested in the videos than the poet; can't recall the exact outcome.

[okie john]

Why does the word "allegedly" keep popping into my head?


Okie John

[Lester Polfus]

Well, without going detail-crazy...turns out that some non-guitarists think that guitarists who like tube amps don't know how important it is that the last piece of gear before the ear is a tube amp, but before that doesn't matter, since only the last link in the chain will truly define the sound. The fact that some guitarists have been unable to replicate the sound they want by using solid state gear is evidence for their ease of manipulation (by...Big Tube, I assume).

Do not waste money on tube pre-amps. They are not important, and overdriving tubes in the early stages to get tube breakup is not worth doing, because that can easily be replicated with solid state gear. What can't be replicated is the final stage of amplification, so always use solid state pre-amps with tube power amps.

This remains true at stadium shows, where the PA system is solid-state. That, however, is different.

No details on the difference were forthcoming.

Also unavailable were references to which solid state pre-amps were effective at replicating tube breakup tones. Or what algorithms might be used to generate a good approximation of the organic tube overdrive so many people like.


IIRC the only references supplied during the argument were videos submitted by one party, detailing the role of tube feedback mid-concert, mid-solo, and the deliberate application of 60 cycle hum in a big, indulgent guitar salute by a shirtless, obnoxious showoff.

Vaguely recollect the recently acquired girlfriend was more interested in the videos than the poet; can't recall the exact outcome.

It's pretty rare that I wish I was at a party, but I coulda got drunk and disagreed with all that...

Oh yeah, I used to work on vacuum tube amps as a side business...

[Lex Luthier]

It's pretty rare that I wish I was at a party, but I coulda got drunk and disagreed with all that...

Oh yeah, I used to work on vacuum tube amps as a side business...

I am looking at the blackface 1967 Fender Bassman across the room and chuckling.
Misanthropist, do I have it correct that you are stating that said poet thought tube pre amplification was unnecessary or undesirable, or that you think so?
It might be I haven't had enough coffee to properly parse Canuckian. ;)


I too have carried a pocket knife for the vast majority of my 51 years, including all of my secondary and high school days without incident. Only one occasion where any thing was said comes to mind. But to paraphrase Tam, I don't carry anything at people.
Pocket clip knives were very prevalent in the entertainment software companies where I used to work, and are de rigeur in the wood shops where I ply my trade now.
The EDC for the last 18 years is a 1999 Benchmade Elishewitz Stryker. The "dress up" knife is a mid-1990s Al Mar Eagle Talon with ebony scales.

[blues]

The EDC for the last 18 years is a 1999 Benchmade Elishewitz Stryker. The "dress up" knife is a mid-1990s Al Mar Eagle Talon with ebony scales.

I've got one in M2, Lex. Been a while since I've seen them but I've been out to dinner with Allen and his wife in years past at either the Blade Show or Guild Show. I think it may have been the latter since they were close with Bud Nealy and his cohort which was always a yearly hoot back then when I still lived in FL.

[Totem Polar]

The EDC for the last 18 years is a 1999 Benchmade Elishewitz Stryker...

I've got one in M2, Lex...

[Lex Luthier]

I feel like the debutante who shows up at the Ball wearing the same gown as the hostess.

16977

I've subscribed to the thread; there seems to be some useful stuff here, and much food for thought.

[blues]

Black is beautiful...


16978

[Totem Polar]

This is getting weird... :D

Pulling the knife out to take that snapshot, I'm struck by how ahead of its time it was, by production standards. The first big-box knife i am aware of that dished out the G10 to guide the thumb to the opener; the disc--which I still think is better than a stud or spyderhole with slick hands--the unmatched blade-to-handle length ratio; the ATS-34, which holds an edge as well in 2017 as it did in 1997... all these newer designs (Striders, Hinderer, high end Spydercos, Protech... Grayman, even a custom Phantom) came and went from my safe, but this one is still here. It might be a hair dainty compared to this millennium's sharpened prybar trend, but man... what a great design.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I am looking at the blackface 1967 Fender Bassman across the room and chuckling.
Misanthropist, do I have it correct that you are stating that said poet thought tube pre amplification was unnecessary or undesirable, or that you think so?
It might be I haven't had enough coffee to properly parse Canuckian. ;)


I too have carried a pocket knife for the vast majority of my 51 years, including all of my secondary and high school days without incident. Only one occasion where any thing was said comes to mind. But to paraphrase Tam, I don't carry anything at people.
Pocket clip knives were very prevalent in the entertainment software companies where I used to work, and are de rigeur in the wood shops where I ply my trade now.
The EDC for the last 18 years is a 1999 Benchmade Elishewitz Stryker. The "dress up" knife is a mid-1990s Al Mar Eagle Talon with ebony scales.

Sorry, I lost track of this thread.

He thought only the last stage of amplification mattered, on the grounds that that was the last stage before the human ear.

My experience has been that tube pre-amps are pretty worthwhile because I like the warmth I get on the gain, and I haven't had a ton of luck replicating that really organic, random tone with solid state gear. I accept the idea that it's possible, but my personal experience has been that if I'm amplifying a guitar, I want tubes up front, ideally a tube power amp as well, and quality speakers, but if that whole thing gets miked and run through a big solid-state amp, the results aren't bad. But signal chain is important, I think: you need to make decisions about where your reverb goes, for example, or wah, or whatever. If you put everything in the wrong order you can really screw up the sound. I think the same is true with tube amplification generally; there's a big difference between a tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp, and a solid state pre-amp and a tube power amp. You might get a good sound out of the latter but in general I think it's harder; as a gain junkie I usually want the tubes pretty far forward in the chain.

The poet's perspective was that it shouldn't matter if anything other than the last stage before the human ear is tube. Potentially there's a point there, but like most discussions where one person has a ton of experience with trying different things and one is just expounding on the basis of his own high opinion of his personal education, it was nuanced on one side, and belligerent on the other.

[GyroF-16]

Since this is the Edged Weapons forum and we're discussing Knives as SD tools...I got this in the mail today, Sentinel Gear Senka - Reverse Edge G10- no metal in blade or sheath. Super light, very stabby, a nice NPE tool.

16830[/QUOTE]


Looks nice.
Of course, they're sold out...

[HCM]

Obviously two competing claims but if the “victims” were drunk and underage it appears to support his claims.

Bumping this thread since this seems relevant:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/wisconsin-river-tubing-stabbing-suspect-claims-self-defense-says-he-falsely-accused-child-molester?dicbo=v2-b7237d1e538cb500556c5dccbec577fe

Wisconsin river tubing stabbing suspect claims self-defense, says he was falsely accused as a 'child molester'
Nicolae Miu says he was looking for friend’s missing phone on Apple River when group began yelling he was a pedophile ‘out looking for little girls’



A Minnesota man accused of going on a deadly stabbing rampage at a popular tubing destination on a Wisconsin river is now held on $1 million bail despite telling investigators he acted in self-defense when a group of young people accused him of being a "child molester" and attacked him first in the water.

Nicolae Miu, 52, of Prior Lake, Minnesota, is accused of fatally stabbing a 17-year-old rising high school senior and seriously wounding four others, men and a woman in their 20s, Saturday afternoon while out tubing on an area of the Apple River in Wisconsin so badly that one of the victims’ intestines were "hanging from their body" and a slash wound was "exposing internal organs," according to an affidavit.

But once confronted by investigators, Miu said he, his wife and two friends had come to the river that morning to go tubing, and he had acted in "self-defense" when a group of young people swarmed around him while he went out looking for one of his friends’ lost cell phone, which was in a floater bag.

Miu said the group of young people accused him of being a "child molester," and video captured someone in a crowd converging toward Miu claiming that he was a pedophile "looking for little girls," according to the affidavit. Miu, seen on cell phone video taking out a knife clipped to his own pocket, claimed that others "produced weapons" and had two knives of their own.

"They attacked me," he told investigators in an interrogation room. "I was in self-defense mode."

Miu’s wife told police her husband left their group twice to go looking for the missing phone. The affidavit notes that cell phone video from one witness showed a shirtless Miu holding goggles with a snorkel attached grab onto someone’s tube before someone shouts at him to get away.

He then stands up in the water while "appearing to be looking for something" and tries to walk away before more people begin to gather around him. Multiple people were yelling at him and at least one person touched his shoulder, but the affidavit says, "the video and elapsed time shows opportunity for Nicolae to leave the confrontation." Miu falls into the water and is shoved back into the water several times before he is seen using a blade in his right hand to stab people who he believed were on top of him

Miu claimed that during the attack someone had tried to pull down his swim trunks and "people were coming at him, punching him, hitting him, and circling around him." He told investigators the people who attacked him were "too drunk" and "too set on going after people," the affidavit says.

Interviewed by investigators afterward, one of the people involved in the confrontation described Miu's behavior as "disgusting" and said he was "looking really weird and sketchily," according to the affidavit. Miu said that after the group accused him of being a child molester and began insulting him, he chastised the young people for drinking alcohol.

After fleeing the scene of the attack, Miu was apprehended about an hour and a half later at a different section of the river by an exit ramp for tubers.

When investigators told him one teen had died and four others were rushed to hospitals after the stabbing incident, the affidavit notes Miu said he was sorry, put his head in his hands and said, "Oh my God." He remarked that his whole life was now "down the tubes."

Miu, an electrical engineer who said he had no past trouble with the law, was formally charged on Monday with one count of first-degree intentional homicide and four additional counts of attempted first-degree intentional homicide. During his first court appearance Monday afternoon, a judge set bail at $1 million cash, and his preliminary hearing is set for Aug. 12.

[Totem Polar]

Ooof. That scenario sounds like it was taken right out of an evo from hell. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. The fact that there were 5 people close enough to him in the water to actually get cut and stabbed that badly seems to bolster a disparity of numbers argument, at first blush.

[Caballoflaco]

I consider “tubing rivers” to be a stupid place filled with stupid people. Unless you want to be semi isolated in the woods and surround by many folks whose plan is to be shitfaced, often with a combination of products besides just alcohol by the time they get to the end of the River go ahead. But no thanks for me.

[757_Magnum]

I wonder if this guy follows SouthNarc.

https://youtu.be/NosMWVIgECo

The following was from networkinvegas.com. I removed the link because the comments section kills brain cells.

"On Tuesday, around 3:30 p.m., a robbery was reported at the Smokestrom Smoke Shop near the 4500 block of West Sahara Avenue. Police are investigating the incident but so far have released no information on what happened.

Our sources tell us that three men attempted to rob the store, and an employee (possibly the owner) grabbed one after jumping the counter and started stabbing him multiple times."

[Navin Johnson]

Seems a little light on information however if there’s video may answer some questions.

Finding him an hour and a half later doesn’t bode well for self-defense

And what are Wisconsin’s self-defense laws?

I am referencing the tubing incident

[willie]

Those of us carrying knives should keep in mind that laws very from state to state. At one time Louisiana had difficult to interpret knife laws. A truck stop there had a sign posted by the sheriff with a warning about knife blades over a certain length. Researching the issue did not clarify this for me. Perhaps PF members from there can comment.

We should be aware that being arrested when out of town and especially out of state is not the same as getting locked up at home where we know people, can easily make bail, have an attorney, and have friends and relatives to make phone calls for us. Jails by definition are not nice places, and nobody gives a shit about your sad tale. Also, when not at home, I would worry more about what witnesses might or might not say. I write this to point out that that one night in jail might become several and that the prepared statement in your mind, though good to have, ........

[Chuck Whitlock]

Ooof. That scenario sounds like it was taken right out of an evo from hell. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. The fact that there were 5 people close enough to him in the water to actually get cut and stabbed that badly seems to bolster a disparity of numbers argument, at first blush.


Seems a little light on information however if there’s video may answer some questions.

Finding him an hour and a half later doesn’t bode well for self-defense

And what are Wisconsin’s self-defense laws?

I am referencing the tubing incident

My take away.