Pat MacNamara on using as much trigger finger as possible

[Ed L]

In this video Pat MacNamara advocates using as much trigger finger as possible. He quotes the person who gave him this advice as saying that he puts so much finger on the trigger that he can hit the mag release when he is finished squeezing it.

This seems to go against conventional advice which is to only use the finger tip or first joint, and that if any part of your trigger finger is scraping the frame you run the risk of pushing the gun sideways as the trigger is pulled to the rear.

Here is the video, and it's application to my shooting follows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g

Earlier this week I wound up shooting a S&W M&P45 that I recently acquired that I really don't need. The gun has 10-8 rear sights and supposedly an Apex Sear, but the trigger still has a hard break.

I am accustomed to shooting H&K VP9s and Glocks, an occasional 1911, and an M&P 9 & 45 that have Bowie trigger jobs where I can almost fire the gun telepathically.

So I was having a much harder time with this gun

I was shooting at a Paul Howe CSAT silhouette at 25 yards with the goal of keeping all 10 shots in the head box.

I wasn't having any luck. Most of the rounds were in the head, but I had some rounds that were embarrassingly far from the head.

That made me think of the video by Pat MacNamara which I rewatched when I got home.

I went back to the range within a few days and applied his technique of using as much finger as possible; whereas previously I was using the first pad of the trigger finger.

Wow, what a difference! Not a fabulous group by PF standards, but much better groups than I was shooting a few days before with the same gun. I can shoot much better with various other guns than I can with this M&P45, but this gun that was giving me issues proved a perfect test case.

I would welcome any thoughts.

[LSP552]

I personally don't think there is a best for everyone, only best for the individual. More finger can work or not, depending. Its all about pressing straight to the rear without disturbing the sights. Different hand sizes and shapes may accomplish this differently. I'd try the techniques over a few range trips to really see if it works for you or if the focus on executing a new technique sharpened your attention on everything.

A switch to a new technique (or gun) will often sharpen our focus on executing the fundamentals, and result in a great day. It might not be the change, just the attention to all of the fundamentals.

[YVK]

Ed, I listened to Pat say that thing in person. Best I remember, he explained it by the needs of controlling heavier trigger than his unit had been accustomed to.

In my personal experience I find that "it depends" on specifics of a gun, shooter, interplay between the two, trigger properties, weight, etc. On Glocks I have to put extra finger in to be able to press it straight back. This is independent of trigger weight; have to do the same with gaming connectors and spring or stock Glocks. On Berettas the trigger reach forces me to place my finger deeper than I want to and I can't shoot them as well as I'd like. On HK P30 I strongly prefer a large backstrap for better trigger (and pistol) control; whatever little I shot the VP9 for, the back strap and, therefore, finger position barely mattered. I think the answer is "whatever lets you pull trigger straight back on a given gun".

[OnionsAndDragons]

My experience mirrors YVKs precisely with Glocks and Beretta.

So much so that I'm going to have to try the large strap on my P30 again now...

I also run classic SIGs with a lot of finger, but they all have SRT so there isn't much to give up doing so in the SA pull with a solid grip.


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[voodoo_man]

This is the way I shoot everything.

I used to play around with specific finger placement and chase the perfect location. I shot with Defoor a few times and he advised to do this method as well. After putting a good bit of dry fire into it I found it's a lot smoother and overall more accurate for me.

[rob_s]

I've heard this from more than a few of the next-gen gun teachers. Sometimes questioning the status quo results in innovation and sometimes it's just different for different.

Some of the people I saw in classes improved slightly by taking this advice, but a good portion of those people had simply never really focused on the trigger press before at all, beyond the basic placement. So was it the change in placement that mattered, or simply the fact that they were finally paying attention?

Give it another ten years, "all the finger" will be all the rage, and someone will come out with this revolutionary new idea that you should only put the first pad on the face of the trigger. They'll probably announce that one should "ease to reset" as well, and all the Johnny-come-latelies will put on their black air Jordan's and pontificate on the greatness.

[ranger]

I have been reviewing fundamentals of grip and trigger squeeze as I have been trying the SIG 320 platform and I consistently shoot "left" - I reviewed numerous posts and stated looking at various pistol "sages" on YouTube etc. I am really confused now! To make matters worse, what I do with deliberate shooting goes out the window when that buzzer goes off!

[GJM]

For me, this is not settled, and I typically sink my finger deeper with a bare Gen 4 than in a Gen 3. Deeper finger definitely changes my reloads for the slower, as it changes my reach to the magazine release.

A lot of this seems Glock specific, as on the Walther, for example, I have no idea how much finger I use.

[Greg]

So many variations in hands, fingers, grip sizes, trigger reach and weight.....

Experiment and see what works for you.

[Mr Pink]

I've played with this technique and others through the years. I have concluded that this "depends" on several things. The size of your "dick-beaters", and the trigger you are using. In general, it works great for me when shooting my Glock, but when I use my S&W, I have to use another technique. All in all, the only thing that matters, is pressing the trigger to the rear without disturbing sight picture/sight alignment.

[spinmove_]

As others have said, I think it all depends. There's another thread around here discussing the same video and idea. It really boils down to how your hands interface with the gun and trigger. Whatever let's you press the trigger without moving the gun is what you should do. If that means sinking more finger on the trigger, then by all means, do it.

God blessed me with short fingers. I've found ways of doing what I need to do with what I've got.


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[critter]

As others have said, I think it all depends. There's another thread around here discussing the same video and idea. It really boils down to how your hands interface with the gun and trigger. Whatever let's you press the trigger without moving the gun is what you should do. If that means sinking more finger on the trigger, then by all means, do it.

God blessed me with short fingers. I've found ways of doing what I need to do with what I've got.


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Yep, there's only one pistol I currently shoot that I can actually reach far enough to touch the trigger with the first knuckle 'crease', and that's the 42. I can't even do that with the Fugly. All the others I'm hitting with the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the tip pad by nature's design anyway. Whatever is easiest/smoothest to get a straight back as possible controlled press would be the 'eureka'. Kinda along the lines of "learn the 'right' way then modify to work best for you."

[spinmove_]

Yep, there's only one pistol I currently shoot that I can actually reach far enough to touch the trigger with the first knuckle 'crease', and that's the 42. I can't even do that with the Fugly. All the others I'm hitting with the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the tip pad by nature's design anyway. Whatever is easiest/smoothest to get a straight back as possible controlled press would be the 'eureka'. Kinda along the lines of "learn the 'right' way then modify to work best for you."

Honestly I don't even think about where exactly my trigger finger falls on the trigger shoe anymore. Moving faster from draw, to present, to first shot I'm much more concerned with getting a proper grip and getting sights looking good enough on the target. The trigger finger just moves backwards during the press while I keep the rest of the gun from moving.


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[blues]

Honestly I don't even think about where exactly my trigger finger falls on the trigger shoe anymore. Moving faster from draw, to present, to first shot I'm much more concerned with getting a proper grip and getting sights looking good enough on the target. The trigger finger just moves backwards during the press while I keep the rest of the gun from moving.


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I'm pretty much in that camp myself. I go by feel (and sight picture) rather than by measurement.

[JustOneGun]

I didn't watch the video for a personal reason. But as much as possible doesn't mean so much that you are driving the frame to the support hand side? It also depends on pistol to hand length ratio. I run my Glock 19 like traditionally taught, center of pad. I run my Glock 43 like a revolver. They are different size and for me require a different grip and finger placement. Hence my idea of picking just one gun and going with it.

I suppose one way to look at it is, don't be afraid to try putting more finger on the trigger if necessary. It might make our shooting better and more comfortable? If it makes it worse then easy to switch back.

[Clusterfrack]

I'd look at what the top GM level shooters do.

This technique does not work for me unless I'm shooting a mouse gun.

[GJM]

In this video Pat MacNamara advocates using as much trigger finger as possible. He quotes the person who gave him this advice as saying that he puts so much finger on the trigger that he can hit the mag release when he is finished squeezing it.

This seems to go against conventional advice which is to only use the finger tip or first joint, and that if any part of your trigger finger is scraping the frame you run the risk of pushing the gun sideways as the trigger is pulled to the rear.

Here is the video, and it's application to my shooting follows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g

Earlier this week I wound up shooting a S&W M&P45 that I recently acquired that I really don't need. The gun has 10-8 rear sights and supposedly an Apex Sear, but the trigger still has a hard break.

I am accustomed to shooting H&K VP9s and Glocks, an occasional 1911, and an M&P 9 & 45 that have Bowie trigger jobs where I can almost fire the gun telepathically.

So I was having a much harder time with this gun

I was shooting at a Paul Howe CSAT silhouette at 25 yards with the goal of keeping all 10 shots in the head box.

I wasn't having any luck. Most of the rounds were in the head, but I had some rounds that were embarrassingly far from the head.

That made me think of the video by Pat MacNamara which I rewatched when I got home.

I went back to the range within a few days and applied his technique of using as much finger as possible; whereas previously I was using the first pad of the trigger finger.

Wow, what a difference! Not a fabulous group by PF standards, but much better groups than I was shooting a few days before with the same gun. I can shoot much better with various other guns than I can with this M&P45, but this gun that was giving me issues proved a perfect test case.

I would welcome any thoughts.

So what are we trying to fix with more finger -- shoot faster better, shoot groups better, keep our shots centered, or something else?

[YVK]

I'd look at what the top GM level shooters do.



Stoeger puts a lot of finger in, all the way to the first knuckle.

Practical Pistol Foundations, @14:10.

[RJ]

As a new shooter, I was enamored of this for a while...then I was not.

I think "as a rule" it fails for all cases, in particular, for those of us with shorter stubbier hands or shorter reach. I've tried the various finger positions in dry practice (backed up by live fire) and what works for me (least sight movement, smallest groups) is the pad.

I respect Mr. MacNamara's advice, a lot. "But", in this case, I am not so sure it extends to everyone, and maybe one should try it to see if it works. If it does, great, but it may not.

[Ed L]

So what are we trying to fix with more finger -- shoot faster better, shoot groups better, keep our shots centered, or something else?

Tighter groups at the point where I was aiming.

I was shooting a S&W M&P 45 that I had recently acquired and it had a horrible trigger compared to the Glocks or VP9s that I am used to shooting--which I consequently shoot much better with,

Thus this M&P45 with the relatively bad trigger proved to be a perfect test case for the technique of using more finger.

By applying this technique I got it down to about a 10 shot 4" group if you discard one flier that expanded it to about 6". Previously with the same gun I was having multiple fliers that made the group too embarrassing to talk about.

[Ed L]

As a new shooter, I was enamored of this for a while...then I was not.

I think "as a rule" it fails for all cases, in particular, for those of us with shorter stubbier hands or shorter reach. I've tried the various finger positions in dry practice (backed up by live fire) and what works for me (least sight movement, smallest groups) is the pad.

I respect Mr. MacNamara's advice, a lot. "But", in this case, I am not so sure it extends to everyone, and maybe one should try it to see if it works. If it does, great, but it may not.

It is going to depend on the shooper's hand size and the gun itself. The M&P45 that I was shooting was equipped with the smallest backstrap. If it had the largest backstrap I might not have been able to get as much finger around the trigger.

[45dotACP]

I like short 1911 triggers so I can get about the first knuckle on the trigger. I just have always shot that way though...I think finger placement itself is irrelevant as long as it is not affecting your ability to press the trigger without disturbing the sights.

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[voodoo_man]

I'd look at what the top GM level shooters do.

This technique does not work for me unless I'm shooting a mouse gun.

Without rustling any feathers...I'll just say that being able to shoot a gun, especially a pistol in the real world has to encompass real world factors like rain, dirt, blood, debris, etc.

What's the possibility you'll have to shoot your pistol after fighting over it on the ground in the dirt during a storm?

What's the possibility a GM would have to do that during a stage?

Also, shooting a pistol (or rifle) with gloves has shown me that this method is far superior than trying to find perfect placement

[Hambo]

I've got big hands, long fingers, and completely tore a ligament (didn't have it repaired) in my trigger finger. These combine to make the "pad on trigger" not work for me.

[JCS]

I've tried this but my trigger finger rubs against my support hand if I go all the way to the knuckle. I suppose it's not for me.


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[Luke]

The only benifit *I've* had with more trigger finger was I could be lazy with a revolver trigger. I still use the tip/pad on a revolver I just can't be lazy on the press.

I've also tried this technique with a wet and muddy gun, so muddy that it wouldn't run right. I also use this technique in gaming (dry and pouring down rain). Lord forbid I ever have too, I will use this same technique if I must.

Like everyone has stated there is no right or wrong answer, it's all personal.

[Clusterfrack]

Without rustling any feathers...I'll just say that being able to shoot a gun, especially a pistol in the real world has to encompass real world factors like rain, dirt, blood, debris, etc.

What's the possibility you'll have to shoot your pistol after fighting over it on the ground in the dirt during a storm?

What's the possibility a GM would have to do that during a stage?

Also, shooting a pistol (or rifle) with gloves has shown me that this method is far superior than trying to find perfect placement

Great points! Some of us do compete under challenging conditions though.

In competition I have:
-Shot while knee deep in mud and the gun had to be hosed off after the match.

-Shot in snowstorms in gloves with frozen hands

-Shot with a seriously injured hand, with gun covered in blood. Sprayed the RO with blood :-).

[psalms144.1]

I had the pleasure of working last week with three great local PD officers who are being gained into my agency as Reserve Investigators. Two of the three come from GLOCK agencies with NY2 triggers. They both shoot with as much finger into the trigger guard as possible, and both were pushing shots WILDLY to their weak side using that technique on our issued DAK-equipped P229s. Got them to switch to shooting with the center of the tip of their finger, and the "push" went away. Also helped when they realized the trigger pull weight was darned near half what they were used to on their issued GLOCKs, and got them to not mash the dog $h1+ out of the triggers...

I, on the other hand, shot my first couple of drills using the tip of my finger with my G19, and pushed shots way off to the left at speed. So, for ME, getting the first joint of my finger centered on the Glock trigger works to keep things nicely centered. But, it is a platform specific technique for me, which reinforces why I shouldn't f*** around with pistols other than what I carry for serious business...

[voodoo_man]

Great points! Some of us do compete under challenging conditions though.

In competition I have:
-Shot while knee deep in mud and the gun had to be hosed off after the match.

-Shot in snowstorms in gloves with frozen hands

-Shot with a seriously injured hand, with gun covered in blood. Sprayed the RO with blood :-).
We can agree that these experiences are not typical of gaming and shouldn't be looked at as normal in that field.

Fact is that the likelihood of using a pistol with a weird environmental modifier is worth training once in a while. Knowing how you and the gun react to these modifiers is extremely important.

[DC_P]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1irZnIOFPE

[Luke]

We can agree that these experiences are not typical of gaming and shouldn't be looked at as normal in that field.

Fact is that the likelihood of using a pistol with a weird environmental modifier is worth training once in a while. Knowing how you and the gun react to these modifiers is extremely important.


And using them in that context in LE is the norm?

[voodoo_man]

And using them in that context in LE is the norm?

I don't understand what you are asking.

[Luke]

You said gamers don't shoot with dirty or wet guns etc.. and then cluster said they do indeed, you responded by saying that's not typical. I am asking if that is typical in the LE world.

[Peally]

I don't understand what you are asking.

I think what he's saying is that sort of thing isn't typical of LE training either, but I agree that it needs to be trained regardless.

I think what gamer's practice in goofy table starts LE tends to practice in oddball malfunction clearance regardless. Everyone is practicing weird shit, and that's not a bad thing.

[Jay Cunningham]

I think what he's saying is that sort of thing isn't typical of LE training either, but I agree that it needs to be trained regardless.

I think what gamer's practice in goofy table starts LE tends to practice in oddball malfunction clearance regardless. Everyone is practicing weird shit, and that's not a bad thing.


I think that's what he's saying too.

Let's move on.

[YVK]

We can agree that these experiences are not typical of gaming and shouldn't be looked at as normal in that field.

Typical may not be the word, but not unusual is. Around here I've shot in conditions when people had to put crampons on their shoes to stay put on ice (I use Salomons with integral steel spikes), in a snowfall (both games and training), in a freezing rain when working a mag release was next to impossible, in a freaking St. George mud etc. People shoot injured too; there is a video of GJM finishing an Area match on one leg around here. Not to say it is Hunger Games but it is not a sanitized activity either.

[JSGlock34]

Didn't we previously beat this video to death in a 12 page thread?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18489-More-Trigger-Finger-Really

[HCM]

I had the pleasure of working last week with three great local PD officers who are being gained into my agency as Reserve Investigators. Two of the three come from GLOCK agencies with NY2 triggers. They both shoot with as much finger into the trigger guard as possible, and both were pushing shots WILDLY to their weak side using that technique on our issued DAK-equipped P229s. Got them to switch to shooting with the center of the tip of their finger, and the "push" went away. Also helped when they realized the trigger pull weight was darned near half what they were used to on their issued GLOCKs, and got them to not mash the dog $h1+ out of the triggers...

I, on the other hand, shot my first couple of drills using the tip of my finger with my G19, and pushed shots way off to the left at speed. So, for ME, getting the first joint of my finger centered on the Glock trigger works to keep things nicely centered. But, it is a platform specific technique for me, which reinforces why I shouldn't f*** around with pistols other than what I carry for serious business...

More finger works very well for me in three circumstances: 1) Glocks, 2) revolvers and 3) ARs with GI grips and GI triggers, particularly burst triggers which almost suck all the joy out of shooting AR's. Since my work guns are a G17, a an M&P 340 and an 11.5" AR with a burst trigger that pretty much means I shoot with more finger the majority of the time.

Note the discussion of "natural trigger finger placement" aka natural lay of the trigger at about the 2:10 mark.


http://youtu.be/_6x1cLByjgw

[Ed L]

Didn't we previously beat this video to death in a 12 page thread?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18489-More-Trigger-Finger-Really

Ooops, I missed that thread.

[GJM]

Didn't we previously beat this video to death in a 12 page thread?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18489-More-Trigger-Finger-Really


Sure we did, but that is what we do on PF. When it gets down to it, there are essentially just a few things we discuss here:

Triggers. How long they should be and how we press them.

Sights. Tritium or fiber optic, how sharp they are, how visible they are and which are better.

The Gadget, as in when will it be available.

The VP9, as in how it is too big.

Competition, and is it good or bad.

Now that the Gadget is available and there is a VP9SK, that just leaves triggers, sights and competition. Almost everything we discuss falls into those categories.

[Jay Cunningham]

We also discuss thread drift.

[spinmove_]

We also discuss thread drift.

P-F IS thread drift. The actual conversation just sometimes mysteriously "happens".


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[Trukinjp13]

This really is another one of the shit just works differently for different people. We have different finger lengths and hand sizes. I like having most of my pad on the trigger. I can be consistent and accurate. If I have to short of a pull like where I easily go to the joint on my finger I end up low and left, it is fast and consistent but it looks like I just jacked up my sight adjustment.

My px4cc with the small grip panel on is just right with the tda trigger. Now a sfa glock with stock gen 4 my finger placement is odd. But if I had a trusty 1911 it would magically be perfect compared to a ol out of date revolver. Good thing I do not carry appendix and carry traditional iwb because that would slow my draw and trigger press.


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[Rex G]

The finger placement shown by Pat McNamara is how I shoot J-snubs and SP101 revolvers. The geometry of the weapons and my hands just works-out right.

This does NOT work well for me with all small handguns, such as my Seecamp and PPK/s, and not most larger handguns, either. The Seecamp, K/L-Frame revolvers, DA/SA and DAK SIGs, several DA/SA and DAO Third-Generation S&W autos, plus some others I cannot remember at the moment, work best for me if I center the distal crease on the face of the trigger.

1911 handguns definitely perform better for me when I shoot them with the distal pad centered on the trigger face, but the results can be quick-and-dirty close-range tolerable if I shoot them with the distal crease centered on the trigger face.

Glocks, well, ugh/arghh/curse/spit, have schizophrenic triggers that are difficult for me to shoot really well, no matter what I try. I have amazed myself with how well I have sometimes shot "sim" Glocks during training, by defaulting to the distal crease centered on the face of the trigger, as this was during the time I was carrying mostly DA weapons, but, generally, I do better with Glocks by centering the distal pad on the face of the trigger, which is how I now try to shoot them, now that I carry Glocks more than anything else, followed by 1911 pistols. In desperation to somehow improve*, I have tried Pat McNamara's trigger finger placement on Glocks, but the results were wildly inconsistent; my fingers are just not long enough for the geometry to work, at least with double-stack Glocks. I have not yet live-fired any of the narrower-frame single-stack Glocks.

*I have largely accepted that I will never shoot a Glock as well as a 1911 or K/L/GP100 revolver. Every shot I fire with glock-ety Glocks improves my 1911 and DA skills, though the inverse is not true.

[JSGlock34]

If you shoot nice centered groups with your Glock, rock on. Your trigger finger placement is just fine. If you suffer from chronic "My Glock Shoots Left", maybe more trigger finger will help you. Can't hurt to try.

[M2CattleCo]

Crude guns require crude handling.