9mm JSP - what's its purpose?

[That Guy]

Okay, so apologies in advance for the stupid question... I realize that for anyone living in the U.S. this must feel pretty pointless.

The vast majority of 9mm ammunition sold over here is ball ammunition. I have however noticed a few places are now selling Magtech's 95gr JSP. Which got me wondering. AFAIK, a handgun JSP bullet doesn't really expand - so does this product really have any real purpose? how would it perform, compared to somewhat cheaper plain old FMJ?

[BigT]

I suppose there is a possibility it could deform a bit. Especially if it hit bone. Making it marginally less worse than ball.

[Tamara]

The Illinois staties used a Federal 95gr JSP round in their Model 39's 'way back in the dark ages when their governor wouldn't approve holler points.

I guess someone down in Brazil still likes them?

[JAD]

A JSP would have a jacketed base, which would I guess lead less.

[fly out]

The U.S. is not entirely the home of the free...New Jersey has some convoluted rules about hollow points. I don't live there, and I haven't visited in years, so I'd leave it for someone with actual experience to explain the ban that isn't a ban.

If JHP is an option in 9mm, I can't imagine a scenario where someone would pick JSP. If JHP isn't an option, I suppose that's where you are forced to look at alternatives. In that case, I think I'd be looking at Fiocchi's EMB.

[Duelist]

In an old Speer reloading manual, I read about the 95gr JSP as being a choice for when the reloader wanted an expanding bullet, but the gun wouldn't reliably feed JHP of the day, or for hunts small game. The test guns, IIRC, were an original P35 and a S&W mod 39.

[TGS]

I'm under the impression that pistol caliber JSPs don't really expand, they just deform a bit. I guess I'd be inclined to believe what people are saying that it was an ineffective solution back in the old days before terminal ballistics was studied critically.


The U.S. is not entirely the home of the free...New Jersey has some convoluted rules about hollow points. I don't live there, and I haven't visited in years, so I'd leave it for someone with actual experience to explain the ban that isn't a ban.

Anyone who isn't active LE cannot carry a gun outside the home with JHPs. The NJSP/NJ AG do not consider polymer tipped rounds like the Hornady CD, Federal Guard Dog or Gold Dot G2 to be JHPs, and I know of at least 1 private security company that has switched their armed guards over to them.

This "ban" does not apply to buying, owning, shooting, transporting or hunting with JHPs.

[blues]

I'm under the impression that pistol caliber JSPs don't really expand, they just deform a bit. I guess I'd be inclined to believe what people are saying that it was an ineffective solution back in the old days before terminal ballistics was studied critically.



Anyone who isn't active LE cannot carry a gun outside the home with JHPs. The NJSP/NJ AG do not consider polymer tipped rounds like the Hornady CD, Federal Guard Dog or Gold Dot G2 to be JHPs, and I know of at least 1 private security company that has switched their armed guards over to them.

This "ban" does not apply to buying, owning, shooting, transporting or hunting with JHPs.

Wonderful. I guess I'll have to remove my HSTs and load CD in my G26 while visiting family in NJ for a day or two this summer. What nonsense.

Or, I guess I could test my FEDS policy:


The FEDS LEOSA/CCW Personal Liability Insurance policy pays for legal defense and indemnification for civil suits resulting from a lawful act under LEOSA. The policy also provides criminal defense costs resulting from a criminal action involving a self-defense related incident and criminal defense against state charges of unlawful carriage of a firearm or federally legal ammunition when lawfully carrying under LEOSA or CCW.

[LorenzoS]

Anyone who isn't active LE or politically connected cannot carry a gun outside the home.
FIFY

[Wayne Dobbs]

This thread and the sighting of an LAPD shooting legend last week in Kali meshed up nicely. The first duty load that LAPD mandated for their 9mm Berettas and S&Ws back in the late 1980s was the Federal 95 grain JSP, a truncated cone, exposed lead softpoint. John Pride was big in LAPD training back then and was one of the guys who led the transition efforts and training back then. He was so kind to talk to me at SHOT back then and shared the actual lesson plan that LAPD was using. I saw him last week at the All State Police Equipment Show in Pomona. He's balder and older, but was still the same great guy to talk to. He recalled that the terminal performance of this load was a bit bizarre. The load chronoed at about 1315 fps from the Beretta 92 FS and it almost always separated core and jacket in actual shootings, with the jacket remaining behind with some mushrooming, while the core went all the way through the shootee. It wasn't great performance, but was quite a bit better than the NYPD FMJ debacle. It's good to go back and see where we've come from and how good we really have it today on service ammo, particularly 9mm duty and service ammo.

[farscott]

Hirtenberger used to (and might today) offer a 9x19 100-grain JSP at 1300 fps. Stuff did not expand much at all, and it zipped through stuff. Except glass and car doors. I remember it being demo'd in a class and remember being totally underwhelmed by it.

[bfoosh006]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgo4umByCSY.....FWIW...

[Tamara]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgo4umByCSY.....FWIW...

Used to shoot straight down into a 60-gal chemical drum full of water to get expanded JHPs to put on the counter at the first gun shop I worked at back in the '90s. (Customers would steal the Black Talons.) Water should give glamor-shot perfect expansion. The cores of those bullets he shot show every sign of having impacted the bottom of the drum...penetrating four feet of water...with enough impact to deform the nose of the projectile. The only JHP's I ever fired that did that were IMI .50AE and a 240gr .44 Mag Hydra-Shok fired out of a 16" carbine. I note they shed the jacket exactly as Wayne Dobbs said they would.

[rsa-otc]

I'm under the impression that pistol caliber JSPs don't really expand, they just deform a bit. I guess I'd be inclined to believe what people are saying that it was an ineffective solution back in the old days before terminal ballistics was studied critically.



Anyone who isn't active LE cannot carry a gun outside the home with JHPs. The NJSP/NJ AG do not consider polymer tipped rounds like the Hornady CD, Federal Guard Dog or Gold Dot G2 to be JHPs, and I know of at least 1 private security company that has switched their armed guards over to them.

This "ban" does not apply to buying, owning, shooting, transporting or hunting with JHPs.

TGS, have you seen any paper on GD2 being approved by the NJSP or AG's office. When I last talked to my FFL who is Ex LEO and well connected to the NJSP Firearms unit nothing official had been handed out with regards to GD2, which is why we went Hornady CD. He was still entering GD2 on his Hollow Point Log, something that was no longer required for Hornady CD, Federal EFMJ or Corbon Power Ball. Now I know it would make logical sense that GD2 would fall in the same category as the rest BUT this is NJ and logic doesn't work here all the time. Until I heard it officially from the NJSP or saw paper on it I wouldn't use GD2. Why risk it? While we are too small to do any significant ballistic testing I can tell you that the 9mm 135 grain plus p Critical Defense has been super accurate out of our M&P's @ 25 yards. I will touch base with my FLL and see if there has been any movement on the GD2 front.

If memory serves me right the ILSP used the 95 grain JSP ammo in their S&W 59's waaaay back when, late 60's through the 70's. From what I recall they were not happy, having had several spectacular failures with that round. Again if I recall correctly the problem was lack of penetration. Also ammo quality control could have been a factor as well.

With regards to JSP's in general... At one time we carried the old 38spl 158 SWC Nyclads. These rounds were dead soft lead with a nylon jacket to limit lead exposure on the range. Some of the first lead free rounds if you will. When fired into fence posts they no longer looked like a SWC but there was little to no expansion. For the last 25 years we have carried 125 SJP in our revolvers. I do not expect them to expand on impact. What I am looking for is a reduction in the potential for ricochet should my personnel miss or the round over penetrate. That is the only benefit I see over a FMJ round. That and I don't have to worry about leading fouling the gun during a fight, something us revolver shooters need to consider even if it is a small consideration.

[TGS]

TGS, have you seen any paper on GD2 being approved by the NJSP or AG's office. When I last talked to my FFL who is Ex LEO and well connected to the NJSP Firearms unit nothing official had been handed out with regards to GD2, which is why we went Hornady CD. He was still entering GD2 on his Hollow Point Log, something that was no longer required for Hornady CD, Federal EFMJ or Corbon Power Ball. Now I know it would make logical sense that GD2 would fall in the same category as the rest BUT this is NJ and logic doesn't work here all the time. Until I heard it officially from the NJSP or saw paper on it I wouldn't use GD2. Why risk it? While we are too small to do any significant ballistic testing I can tell you that the 9mm 135 grain plus p Critical Defense has been super accurate out of our M&P's @ 25 yards. I will touch base with my FLL and see if there has been any movement on the GD2 front.

If memory serves me right the ILSP used the 95 grain JSP ammo in their S&W 59's waaaay back when, late 60's through the 70's. From what I recall they were not happy, having had several spectacular failures with that round. Again if I recall correctly the problem was lack of penetration. Also ammo quality control could have been a factor as well.

With regards to JSP's in general... At one time we carried the old 38spl 158 SWC Nyclads. These rounds were dead soft lead with a nylon jacket to limit lead exposure on the range. Some of the first lead free rounds if you will. When fired into fence posts they no longer looked like a SWC but there was little to no expansion. For the last 25 years we have carried 125 SJP in our revolvers. I do not expect them to expand on impact. What I am looking for is a reduction in the potential for ricochet should my personnel miss or the round over penetrate. That is the only benefit I see over a FMJ round. That and I don't have to worry about leading fouling the gun during a fight, something us revolver shooters need to consider even if it is a small consideration.

Negative sir. I don't remember the list specifically, just that it included a few "hollow-points" based on the polymer filling. I haven't kept up with it.

[bfoosh006]

[QUOTE=Tamara;605352]Used to shoot straight down into a 60


Exact answer didn't have time to type ! Tank you.... ( pun intended )

[Jeep]

Wonderful. I guess I'll have to remove my HSTs and load CD in my G26 while visiting family in NJ for a day or two this summer. What nonsense.

Or, I guess I could test my FEDS policy:

Read the NJ rules very carefully before you go. New Jersey courts take the position that the federal Constitution pretty much doesn't apply once you cross the Delaware from Philly when it comes to gun issues, and more than a few retired LEOs have had a problem with concealed carry--which in practice is all but illegal in NJ.

[blues]

Read the NJ rules very carefully before you go. New Jersey courts take the position that the federal Constitution pretty much doesn't apply once you cross the Delaware from Philly when it comes to gun issues, and more than a few retired LEOs have had a problem with concealed carry--which in practice is all but illegal in NJ.

When I still worked out of the federal building in NYC during the 80's the stories about the lack of reciprocity and fraternity between the NJSP and the NYC locals and feds were legendary. Some guys had even been in fistfights. I personally never had any issues when I had to work on that side of the Hudson but I'm always on the lookout.

Thanks, Jeep. Trust me, I'll be on the lookout. I have a federal PLI policy that covers exactly the issues involved, and they are well aware that NJ's stand on the ammo would violate LEOSA.

[Jeep]

When I still worked out of the federal building in NYC during the 80's the stories about the lack of reciprocity and fraternity between the NJSP and the NYC locals and feds were legendary. Some guys had even been in fistfights. I personally never had any issues when I had to work on that side of the Hudson but I'm always on the lookout.

Thanks, Jeep. Trust me, I'll be on the lookout. I have a federal PLI policy that covers exactly the issues involved, and they are well aware that NJ's stand on the ammo would violate LEOSA.

Most NJ cops I've met were decent guys, but many work for anti-gun maniacs and NJ gun laws are (deliberately) confusing and crazy. For example if you transport a gun from point A to point B it probably needs to be in a locked container, without ammo in it, in the trunk of your car, and if you stop to eat you might be violating the law because you are required to make no stops. (Getting gas might be ok. It might not. You get to find out from a judge or jury). LEOSA legally overrides such things, but local Jersey judges might not recognize the LEOSA, and from what I can tell, the legislature wants it that way.

[blues]

Most NJ cops I've met were decent guys, but many work for anti-gun maniacs and NJ gun laws are (deliberately) confusing and crazy. For example if you transport a gun from point A to point B it probably needs to be in a locked container, without ammo in it, in the trunk of your car, and if you stop to eat you might be violating the law because you are required to make no stops. (Getting gas might be ok. It might not. You get to find out from a judge or jury). LEOSA legally overrides such things, but local Jersey judges might not recognize the LEOSA, and from what I can tell, the legislature wants it that way.

I hear you, brother. Much as it might cause me grief, I'm not inclined to give up my rights to satisfy their fear mongering methods. Last I recall, I served my country honorably through my years of federal service and I'm not about to lay down for them or any other authority when I'm within my rights.

That said, I very much appreciate your taking the time to contact me regarding this.

[psalms144.1]

Brother Blues - you probably know my advice already, but, here goes:

1. The New Jersey Turnpike is the Highway to (and through) Hell most times. I'd suggest a complete "skip" around it due to traffic and legal issues. From your neck of the woods I'd cut north on 77 to 81, and stay on 81 until you cut east on 80 for the GWB.
2. Gas isn't cheaper in NJ than surrounding areas since the passage of the gas tax. Prices are now comparable to "street" prices on LI. So, don't go to NJ.
3. I've been told by more than one NJSP official that, as far as they're concerned, my current, full time federal LEOs are NOT authorized to carry JHP when they're not "on duty," and should be carrying FMJ, if they're carrying at all (all the while implying that anyone who carries a weapon off duty is unhinged).

Just my thoughts as someone trapped up here... It's actually BETTER for me living in NY, from a firearms perspective, than for my guys who live/work in NJ - because NYS recognizes my agents as peace officers.

[blues]

Brother Blues - you probably know my advice already, but, here goes:

1. The New Jersey Turnpike is the Highway to (and through) Hell most times. I'd suggest a complete "skip" around it due to traffic and legal issues. From your neck of the woods I'd cut north on 77 to 81, and stay on 81 until you cut east on 80 for the GWB.
2. Gas isn't cheaper in NJ than surrounding areas since the passage of the gas tax. Prices are now comparable to "street" prices on LI. So, don't go to NJ.
3. I've been told by more than one NJSP official that, as far as they're concerned, my current, full time federal LEOs are NOT authorized to carry JHP when they're not "on duty," and should be carrying FMJ, if they're carrying at all (all the while implying that anyone who carries a weapon off duty is unhinged).

Just my thoughts as someone trapped up here... It's actually BETTER for me living in NY, from a firearms perspective, than for my guys who live/work in NJ - because NYS recognizes my agents as peace officers.

I must've missed this earlier. I usually take 81 up the Shenandoah Valley and turn right on 78 across PA toward Easton. Then I either proceed to my sister or mother in NJ or continue until I turn off for the Verrazano bridge and head up to Ozone Park or Howard Beach.

Can't remember the last time I was on the Tpke or Garden State Pkwy. And don't get me started on jug handles...LOL!

[TGS]

3. I've been told by more than one NJSP official that, as far as they're concerned, my current, full time federal LEOs are NOT authorized to carry JHP when they're not "on duty," and should be carrying FMJ, if they're carrying at all (all the while implying that anyone who carries a weapon off duty is unhinged).

Just my thoughts as someone trapped up here... It's actually BETTER for me living in NY, from a firearms perspective, than for my guys who live/work in NJ - because NYS recognizes my agents as peace officers.

I honestly can't imagine this being a problem.

So you get some jerkoff who is 1), a jerkoff, and 2) doesn't understand his laws.

He can say whatever he wants, but the fact remains that we don't draw our powers from the NJ state Constitution, but the US Constitution, and we are carrying an authorized duty weapon with our issued (and required) ammunition in accordance with our agency policies and my statutory authority to do so.

I can even point to the fact that carrying off duty is explicitly addressed as being in the scope of my duties.

At the end of the day, Uncle Sam says I can. I can't imagine that this would be an issue beyond a phone call with even the most serious of jerkoff......even with my tele-tubby of a LE agency.

I'm not going to let "southern hospitality" keep me from carrying my gun or performing my job in the South, so I'm not going to let some jerkoff dictate my authorities because "it's his highway".

[blues]

From the FEDS "LEOSA" PLI policy (http://www.fedsprotection.com/hr218-leosa-for-retired-leos):


Coverage

The FEDS LEOSA/CCW Personal Liability Insurance policy pays for legal defense and indemnification for civil suits resulting from a lawful act under LEOSA. The policy also provides criminal defense costs resulting from a criminal action involving a self-defense related incident and criminal defense against state charges of unlawful carriage of a firearm or federally legal ammunition when lawfully carrying under LEOSA or CCW.


NJ can pound sand as far as I'm concerned. When they override the constitution and federal law they can talk to me then.

[donmacc]

Wow. You guys really have your panties in knot over nothing. Here is the specific NJ law regarding the exemption of federal officers from NJ weapons restrictions.

NJ Statute: 2C:39-6. Exemptions

a. Provided a person complies with the requirements of subsection j. of this section, N.J.S.2C:39-5 does not apply to:

(1)Members of the Armed Forces of the United States or of the National Guard while actually on duty, or while traveling between places of duty and carrying authorized weapons in the manner prescribed by the appropriate military authorities;

(2)Federal law enforcement officers, and any other federal officers and employees required to carry firearms in the performance of their official duties;

[donmacc]

Hollow point bullets:

NJ Statute: 2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices.

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or

[blues]

Wow. You guys really have your panties in knot over nothing. Here is the specific NJ law regarding the exemption of federal officers from NJ weapons restrictions.

NJ Statute: 2C:39-6. Exemptions

a. Provided a person complies with the requirements of subsection j. of this section, N.J.S.2C:39-5 does not apply to:

(1)Members of the Armed Forces of the United States or of the National Guard while actually on duty, or while traveling between places of duty and carrying authorized weapons in the manner prescribed by the appropriate military authorities;

(2)Federal law enforcement officers, and any other federal officers and employees required to carry firearms in the performance of their official duties;


Hollow point bullets:

NJ Statute: 2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices.

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or

Yes, but for some of us retired federal law enforcement officers who can carry nationwide under LEOSA it's "knot" much ado about nothing.

LEOSA, (HR218), states that notwithstanding state law, those who are entitled to carry under its provisions may carry any handgun ammunition legal under federal law.

If NJ makes us go to the trouble to defend ourselves in court despite the law being in our favor, I'd hardly consider that a trifle.

And frankly, I'd prefer to decide for myself the most reliable ammo to legally carry to defend myself or a loved one in the event that such a circumstance should be encountered.


e) As used in this section--(1) the term "firearm"--
(A) except as provided in this paragraph, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;
(B) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act; and
(C) does not include--
(i) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
(ii) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
(iii) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

[donmacc]

I agree wholeheartedly with the supremacy of federal law with respect to LEOSA. But there are some twists and turns in NJ. NJ had a retired police officer carry law (RPO) before LEOSA. According to state law retired NJ cops have to apply to the NJSP for a a RPO carry permit. The permit is renewed yearly. Retirees are required to qualify twice yearly on the same qualification course as active cops. The state takes the position that NJ retirees have to obtain a state issued RPO permit to carry a weapon in NJ. Since the RPO permit is issued under state law the other provision (hollow points) comes into play. Retired cops are not LEO's in NJ and therefore dont qualify for the exemption. So under state law they cant carry hollow point ammo. That being said I highly doubt some cop is going to ask to see your ammo on a traffic stop.

That being said, who wants to test the supremacy of LEOSA in NJ? Do you want to be arrested, incarcerated, post a bond, hire an attorney, deal with the potential for a criminal trial, then go thru having to seek expungements of your arrest record, a civil trial for damages, etc. Not me. Its much easier to buy a box of CD or Guard Dog when i travel to NJ. An incident at a NJ airport with the TSA inspection of my luggage convinced me of that.

Sadly, I believe the issues will only be resolved by the courts in connection with a self defense shooting by a retiree carrying under the provisions of LEOSA. Until that time there is no incentive for NJ to go to the trouble of rewriting/amending existing state law.

[blues]

donmacc, no, I don't want to test the supremacy of LEOSA in NJ but by the same token I am not going to deny myself the right to legally carry the ammunition of my choice.

Far better men than me have faced hardship and made the ultimate sacrifice to guarantee our rights under the constitution of the United States. I'd feel like a sniveling wretch if I didn't stand up and do my part.

And what if, in the infinitesimally small chance of a lethal encounter in NJ, the quality of the carried ammunition might prove to be the difference between stopping and incapacitating a felon before committing murder or grave bodily harm, or his being able to complete those acts even if he suffered grave injury from his wounds and succumbed after the fact?

I don't think I want to leave that decision in the hands of others when it's properly and legally mine to make, even though I have sufficient 9mm Critical Defense on hand.

(And I hope it never comes to pass...any of it.)

[donmacc]

Blues - my posting of the laws and reference to the "knot" was in regard to the comments about federal LEO's not being able to carry HP ammo off duty in NJ.

Retirees are another matter. Retirees dont have the deep pockets, regulations, or authority of their former employers. You are on your own and personally liable for your actions. Conversely you are free from your former employer's policies and restrictions and can do what you want. I completely agree with your desire to carry the best defensive ammo. As with all things in life, think things through, make your decision, and move forward knowing the potential consequences and solutions.

[blues]

Blues - my posting of the laws and reference to the "knot" was in regard to the comments about federal LEO's not being able to carry HP ammo off duty in NJ.

Retirees are another matter. Retirees dont have the deep pockets, regulations, or authority of their former employers. You are on your own and personally liable for your actions. Conversely you are free from your former employer's policies and restrictions and can do what you want. I completely agree with your desire to carry the best defensive ammo. As with all things in life, think things through, make your decision, and move forward knowing the potential consequences and solutions.

Yep. Agree. And that's why I opted for that FEDS PLI policy last year. Hopefully won't ever need it.

[donmacc]

Again, I respect and support your decision to carry hollow point ammo. To me having the ability as a retiree to carry a concealed weapon in NJ is more important than whether i can load it with hollow point ammo given the availability of viable expanding alternatives. As they say, its the indian, not the arrow. Hollow points dont always expand in actual shootings, especially from short barreled pistols and revolvers. A couple of COM hits should alter the trajectory of any encounter regardless of the ammo.

All retirees and CHL holders should have some type of carry insurance. There are plenty of plans available and the prices are very reasonable.

[TGS]

Blues - my posting of the laws and reference to the "knot" was in regard to the comments about federal LEO's not being able to carry HP ammo off duty

Respectfully, the concern isn't out of thin air.

You've got a fairly senior agent in this thread who has been told by multiple NJ State Troopers that they can't.

I personally know someone from my office who was running lights on the highway enroute to assist with an arrest where the agent was alone. A Trooper pulled him over and threatened to arrest him, saying he's not a cop in NJ therefore we can't act as LEOs. He gave him "professional courtesy" and an ass chewing instead of wrongfully arresting him.

I was in a class with two Troopers who I was giving a ride to....we were at a range and could only use government vehicles, they were in their personal cars so I said hop in. They (both from different barracks) both told me that they'd do the same thing as that Trooper had, and the one sort of scratched his head when I said we can carry off duty.

I think Blues personally had an identical experience.

Another person at my office was threatened to be arrested by a Mass statie when assigned to our office there. Why? Because this is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and you're not a Commonwealth of Mass police officer, so you have no LE powers here.

Fact: There's some serious fucking confusion about police powers and where they derive from, and where and how they extend. We both know what our legal authorities are, but that doesn't mean some jerkoff could push the envelope and arrest one of Psalms guys, as they said they would. ditto if a fed is carrying an authorized mag over 15 rounds off duty....active NJ cops ain't allowed to by law, so I imagine the root confusion would lead to the same misuderstanding that we also are subject to same.

[blues]

It's not like NJ isn't in the United States. There's absolutely no fucking excuse whatsoever for this feigned and deliberate ignorance. Period.

The more we discuss it the angrier it makes me. I've been listening to and hearing horror stories since the 80's. When is it going to be long enough for someone in NJ to pull their heads out of their asses and smell the coffee? Are they going to arrest an LEO who comes to their assistance and pulls their bacon out of the fire?

Closing bridges apparently isn't a problem. Respecting the legal authority of brother (and sister) LEOs is. It's unconscionable is what it is and it disgusts me.

[TGS]

It's not like NJ isn't in the United States. There's absolutely no fucking excuse whatsoever for this feigned and deliberate ignorance. Period.

The more we discuss it the angrier it makes me. I've been listening to and hearing horror stories since the 80's. When is it going to be long enough for someone in NJ to pull their heads out of their asses and smell the coffee? Are they going to arrest an LEO who comes to their assistance and pulls their bacon out of the fire?

Closing bridges apparently isn't a problem. Respecting the legal authority of brother (and sister) LEOs is. It's unconscionable is what it is and it disgusts me.

If you really want to poke the bear, just say the words "Bergen County Police" to a Trooper and stand the fuck by.

great way to break the ice. :)

[blues]

If you really want to poke the bear, just say the words "Bergen County Police" to a Trooper and stand the fuck by.

great way to break the ice. :)

Seriously, man, I don't know how anybody can live there.

[TGS]

Seriously, man, I don't know how anybody can live there.

Well, I'm in Indonesia right now where "This is my highway" and the fiefdom nature of NJ is a pretty sparkling vision of the future comparatively. The cops here have to pay money to become cops, have little to no training, and have to pay "coffee money" to their boss to stay on the job. As you can imagine, extortion is the norm.

So I guess it's relative. :)

[blues]

Well, I'm in Indonesia right now where "This is my highway" and the fiefdom nature of NJ is a pretty sparkling vision of the future comparatively. The cops here have to pay money to become cops, have little to no training, and have to pay "coffee money" to their boss to stay on the job. As you can imagine, extortion is the norm.

So I guess it's relative. :)

Well, that makes me feel a lot better. :rolleyes:

On a more serious note...be careful out there and stay safe.

[donmacc]

To the OP: my apology for hijacking this thread even further than it was before.

[That Guy]

Trying to return to discussing ammunition, and not New Jersey laws...

I recently discovered Sellier & Bellot makes 9mm soft points too. These ones have a more common bullet weight of 124 grains, and the bullet construction appears to be more of a SJSP, with exposed lead core beyond the metal jacket:

32955

I don't know if I'm just weird, but I think if someone with access to the stuff were to do a gelatin test on these it would be really neat to see. Just because.

[olstyn]

I can tell you that the 9mm 135 grain plus p Critical Defense has been super accurate out of our M&P's @ 25 yards.

This is unsurprising. I once chronoed a 10-round string of the standard pressure Critical Duty out of curiosity, and the SD was 8. It's VERY consistent ammo, and I have to imagine that the +P stuff is similar in that regard.

[Tokarev]

Probably 25 years ago I killed a doe with a 9mm loaded with the long discontinued Speer 125gr JSP. I shot her in the neck from a distance of about 20 yards. She was dead on the spot.

Lucky shot or effective bullet?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[That Guy]

Lucky shot or effective bullet?

Sounds to me like good shot placement.

[Lester Polfus]

Lucky shot or effective bullet?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Yes.

[Baldanders]

I've wanted to do some milk jug testing with the Fiocchi "Black Mamba" load, but it doesn't seem to be available in the states. I'm not really clear if it is a softpoint, or something more.

[Lester Polfus]

I've wanted to do some milk jug testing with the Fiocchi "Black Mamba" load, but it doesn't seem to be available in the states. I'm not really clear if it is a softpoint, or something more.

Well, that brings back some memories of the bad old days.

IIRC Black Mama is an expanding full metal jacket, for jurisdictions that allow guns but dont' allow hollowpoints. It has a little dimple on the front that is supposed to make it expand, and also IIRC it's a light bullet loaded hot. It has some kind of funky coating on the jacket.

They probably don't sell it here because they were paying attention during that hole "Black Talon" thing.

[willie]

Once I bought a case of Radway Green 9mm soft point ammo. It was written that this ammo was made to fire in British submachine guns and expand. The stuff was +P but not over pressure. My batch was accurate. Radway Green was or maybe still is a British ammo manufacturer. My opinion is that softpoint handgun ammo is not likely to expand unless fired at magnum velocities. And if a 95 grain 9mm soft point bullet did expand when hitting a person, I think that it might not have sufficient momentum to penetrate the desired distance. I have some 40 year old .38 Special soft point made by Smith and Wesson. The box specifies 2 inch barrel. Smith used to claim that it would expand even at 100 yards. I say bullshit, If Doc will test it, I will donate the 95 rounds that I have.

[willie]

Well, I'm in Indonesia right now where "This is my highway" and the fiefdom nature of NJ is a pretty sparkling vision of the future comparatively. The cops here have to pay money to become cops, have little to no training, and have to pay "coffee money" to their boss to stay on the job. As you can imagine, extortion is the norm.

So I guess it's relative. :)

TGS, I thank you for what you do. I'm sitting on my ass in Waco, Tx, and you are risking yours. Be vigilant.

[TGS]

TGS, I thank you for what you do. I'm sitting on my ass in Waco, Tx, and you are risking yours. Be vigilant.

Thanks buddy.

To be honest, the last two weeks I was in Brussels, and before that Paris. The most dangerous thing I had to deal with was making sure the Customs beagle didn't eat all of my Belgian chocolate on reentry to the US. :cool:

[That Guy]

I've wanted to do some milk jug testing with the Fiocchi "Black Mamba" load, but it doesn't seem to be available in the states. I'm not really clear if it is a softpoint, or something more.

As far as I know it is a truncated cone lead bullet with a nominal, thin jacket and a dimple on the front of the bullet to encourage deformation. It is designed this way specifically to be a legal carry round where a fully jacketed bullet is demanded, but still be more effective than a typical FMJ.

I would think it isn't available in the US because when you have access to proper hollow points, why bother with something like that?

I would like to see some proper testing of this round as well. There are people who rely on these things as their carry load, and as far as I know the only sort of testing available to them is shooting jugs of water and such.

[TGS]

I've wanted to do some milk jug testing with the Fiocchi "Black Mamba" load, but it doesn't seem to be available in the states. I'm not really clear if it is a softpoint, or something more.


As far as I know it is a truncated cone lead bullet with a nominal, thin jacket and a dimple on the front of the bullet to encourage deformation.

The jacket looks to be of equal thickness all the way around. If my only choices were this or a FMJ, I'd probably still carry this just because it should theoretically have less chance to deflect off bone compared to a round nose. If it's expensive compared to FMJs like premium JHPs are in the USA, I'd likely just stick to a Flat Point FMJ. I'm skeptical that it will deform as advertised, though.

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[RevolverRob]

JSPs in a 10"+ barrel do better than some jacketed HPs which may shed the jacket and fragment. That's the older HP designs, modern HPs don't usually have this problem.

[Matt Helm]

Yes, I have seen those results while using various JSP factory brand.& handloaded...shot from my 14 in. TC Contender barrels.
35 Remington is prime example.

[Nephrology]

If quality JHPs aren't available, I would buy the highest quality FMJ I could. 9mm NATO would be my choice. 95gr seems very light - I would be concerned about getting adequate penetration. IMO, penetration > expansion if forced to rank-order by priority.

I always carry JHPs but ball has killed lots of people over the years. I wouldn't lose much sleep carrying quality 9mm NATO ball.

[OlongJohnson]

I think that in 2018 in free United States, any expanding 95gr .355 bullet is either a .380 round, cheap surplus/overrun to be loaded as .380 practice fodder, or can work well as a varmint round when loaded to 9mm +P specs.

As a 9mm defense option, I would rather have 147gr FMJ with the biggest flat on the nose that will reliably function in my gun. Then at least you know you’ll get penetration, versus just rolling the dice with this evolutionary dead end from the ancient past.

[spinmove_]

I think that in 2018 in free United States, any expanding 95gr .355 bullet is either a .380 round, cheap surplus/overrun to be loaded as .380 practice fodder, or can work well as a varmint round when loaded to 9mm +P specs.

As a 9mm defense option, I would rather have 147gr FMJ with the biggest flat on the nose that will reliably function in my gun. Then at least you know you’ll get penetration, versus just rolling the dice with this evolutionary dead end from the ancient past.

If I couldn’t carry Gold Dots or HSTs, I’d roll with Lawman/American Eagle in either 124 or 147 gr weights and not worry about it. Stupid laws are gonna be stupid. My ability to place my shots well as quick as possible is way more important than what I’m launching at a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

OP:

Okay, so apologies in advance for the stupid question... I realize that for anyone living in the U.S. this must feel pretty pointless.

The vast majority of 9mm ammunition sold over here is ball ammunition. I have however noticed a few places are now selling Magtech's 95gr JSP. Which got me wondering. AFAIK, a handgun JSP bullet doesn't really expand - so does this product really have any real purpose? how would it perform, compared to somewhat cheaper plain old FMJ?


A recent reply:

12-08-2018, 09:30 AMOlongJohnson
I think that in 2018 in free United States, any expanding 95gr .355 bullet is either a .380 round, cheap surplus/overrun to be loaded as .380 practice fodder, or can work well as a varmint round when loaded to 9mm +P specs.

As a 9mm defense option, I would rather have 147gr FMJ with the biggest flat on the nose that will reliably function in my gun. Then at least you know you’ll get penetration, versus just rolling the dice with this evolutionary dead end from the ancient past.

[RevolverRob]

If quality JHPs aren't available, I would buy the highest quality FMJ I could. 9mm NATO would be my choice. 95gr seems very light - I would be concerned about getting adequate penetration. IMO, penetration > expansion if forced to rank-order by priority.

I always carry JHPs but ball has killed lots of people over the years. I wouldn't lose much sleep carrying quality 9mm NATO ball.

I can almost guarantee (but currently can't find the evidence to back this up); that the original purpose of JSP 9mm was for use in submachine guns in an attempt to improve the efficacy over ball. In which case, a 95-grain bullet traveling at ~1600+fps isn't really concerned for penetration, particularly when it is followed by four or five more. But actually, most JSP 9mm I've seen is in 115-125-grain flavor. I ASSume that the reason this commercial load is 95-grains is because they're trying to get sub-gun like velocity from pistol barrels.

Most sub-gun ammo is loaded Hot (with a capital H), IMI stuff meant for Uzis is loaded too hot for most handguns and the Swedish M39/b round is way too hot for handguns. Neither of those are actually JSPs, but they are loaded to damn near the max pressure for the 9mm case, I've seen flattened primers from Swedish stuff when firing from an MP5. A couple of times I've seen case head separation on full auto (almost always with Mac-10/11 platform guns) using IMI stuff.

Which is my long way of saying, for handguns, a 124 or 147-grain flat nose loaded to NATO velocity would likely be roughly equivalent to any performance a JSP would give you from a handgun.

[That Guy]

If quality JHPs aren't available, I would buy the highest quality FMJ I could. 9mm NATO would be my choice.

I seem to recall that the NATO specifications for 9mm ammunition were rather sloppy?



As a 9mm defense option, I would rather have 147gr FMJ with the biggest flat on the nose that will reliably function in my gun. Then at least you know you’ll get penetration

I once came across a ballistic study by a Swedish police department (Stockholm, perhaps? I can't accurately recall) comparing their duty round, a 147gr FMJ-TC to a regular round nose 124gr FMJ when fired into ballistic gelatin. While the round nose bullet eventually tumbled and thus penetrated 90cm of gelatin, the flat nosed bullet kept going nose first and penetrated 120cm. So yes, you do appear to get plenty of penetration with a flat nose FMJ. Enough for three to four bad guys, as long as you can get them to line up for the shot. :)

(I'm afraid I can't comment on the details of the study like the exact composition of the gelatin and so on. The whole thing was written in swedish, and I know very little swedish. Basically I just looked at the numbers and the pretty pictures. :p )

[Nephrology]

I seem to recall that the NATO specifications for 9mm ammunition were rather sloppy?


Looks like the STANAG specifications are 108-124gr bullet loaded up to 37k PSI.

So, yes, it looks like the actual specs leave some leeway - I was using the term to mean a 124gr bullet loaded to ~36.5k PSI, so ~ 124gr +P.



Which is my long way of saying, for handguns, a 124 or 147-grain flat nose loaded to NATO velocity would likely be roughly equivalent to any performance a JSP would give you from a handgun.

I am generally suspicious of very light/very fast pistol caliber ammo. I've seen bullets do enough weird things that I like the idea of a cartridge with enough mass to resist deflection from flat bones (esp ribs, skull). This is all subjective opinion of course. I also believe that most bullets hurt really badly, and that spending too much time over-thinking cartridge selection is entirely an academic endeavor (which can be fun at times)

[RevolverRob]

I am generally suspicious of very light/very fast pistol caliber ammo.

Remembering, of course that light + fast = greater propensity to yaw. Mild deformity caused by soft points may well increase drag and make yaw even more likely. When you put these bullets through a 10" subgun barrel doing 16-1700fps, they work best. Much faster, though and you'll tend to fragment the whole bullet.


I've seen bullets do enough weird things that I like the idea of a cartridge with enough mass to resist deflection from flat bones (esp ribs, skull).

I concur, even better if they expand. Which is why I prefer 147-grain HST or bonded Winchester. Though I don't mind the lighter 115-grain Barnes bullets, because those deform even less than lead + copper jacketed rounds.

[LtDave]

Trying to return to discussing ammunition, and not New Jersey laws...

I recently discovered Sellier & Bellot makes 9mm soft points too. These ones have a more common bullet weight of 124 grains, and the bullet construction appears to be more of a SJSP, with exposed lead core beyond the metal jacket:

32955

I don't know if I'm just weird, but I think if someone with access to the stuff were to do a gelatin test on these it would be really neat to see. Just because.

That S&B JSP shoots pretty good out of my VP9:

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[That Guy]

That S&B JSP shoots pretty good out of my VP9:

That is pretty good!

I too bought a box and tried a few strings through a couple of pistols. I didn't have nearly as good results as you, though. That might just be due to the shooter, though. The amount of range time I have had access to has dropped from a previous decidedly pedestrian level when compared to most people here, to downright pathetic.

I did notice the ammunition is a lot louder and snappier than the typical FMJ I use at the range. Unfortunately did not chrono it though.