Wet tumbling sans SS pins, with near SS pins results!

[LittleLebowski]

Much, much thanks to GuanoLoco and punkey71, the only thing I've added to their technique(s) is the additional Armorall rinse sans case lube.


Some reloaders with carbide dies (especially pistol caliber reloaders) do not even clean their brass, but most do and most should. Over the years, a plethora of dry tumbling techniques have been used, such as walnut hulls especially in the form of "Lizard Litter, corn cob media, and even airsoft pellets. Additionally, additives to the brass and media mix such as mineral spirits, Nu Finish car wax, and purpose-manufactured Flitz tumbling media additive are popular. There's drawbacks to dry tumbling, mainly dust to be mitigated; both in the overall load in the tumbler and in individual cases. A dryer sheet in the media is a popular remedy to the dust issue, but one may experience plumes of tumbling media dust during shooting rounds reloaded using this cleaning method.

The various dry tumbling techniques have recently been eclipsed in popularity by wet tumbling, mainly wet tumbling using stainless steel pins. This produces vastly superior results over dry tumbling. Furthermore, the steel pins help with slightly polishing rough edges left over from decamped primer pockets and making chamber necks smoother. Some common drawbacks to this technique are:


disposing of the leftover lead contaminated water
stainless steel media stuck in cases (most of the time, simply removing each pin caught and throwing it away will keep this problem from occurring again with your batch of media
separating the pins from the brass. This can be a chore. Common techniques are sifting out the brass using a large amount of water to "rinse" the steel out and of course, a magnet.
drying the wet brass. This does not have to be hard, but many make it that way. Use a food dehydrator. If you do not want to buy an extra one, simply buy extra drying trays for a whopping $9 for only brass use.



I tried the dry tumbling route and it was too messy, too slow, and produced mediocre results for the amount of work involved. Next was buying a tumbler capable of tumbling liquids. The Thumler tumbler is well spoken of, but I was certain I could spend much less and get a decent tumbler. I found what I looking for in the Harbor Freight dual tumbler coupled with a 20% off coupon from Harbor Freight, bringing my total to under $50. Yes, the Harbor Freight is not the same quality as the over two hundred dollar Thumler. I do not care, I can purchase some extra drive belts, remove the motor cover so that it does not overheat, and slap rubber bands on the drums so that they turn properly. This is a hobby that allegedly saves you money, if you can tinker just a little with the Harbor Freight tumbler, you can pocket a lot of savings. I plan to sooner or later, manufacture a better drum for it, using this thread at ARF as a guide.

So far, stainless media and wet tumbling worked much better for me. However, enterprising souls at Pistol-Forum found a better way. I read through the entire "Wet tumbling WITHOUT SS pins results" thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24891-Wet-tumbling-WITHOUT-SS-pins-results) and tried the technique developed and detailed by the community there. Many were using hot water, LemiShine citric acid dishwashing additive, and a very small amount of dish soap (Dawn works well). The technique has been refined into saving money by using bulk citric acid powder (https://www.amazon.com/Milliard-Citric-Acid-Pound-NON-GMO/dp/B00EYFKNL8/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1494435230&sr=8-3&keywords=citric+acid+powder) (vastly cheaper than LemiShine), water, and Armorall Wash'N'Wax vehicle wash soap (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GJ9K8C/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8). The Armorall soap helps clean the cases and adds a slight wax coating to the cases. Regardless, the results are compelling; only slightly "dirtier" than tumbling using the bothersome time sink of stainless steel pins, but with greatly reduced time expenditure (You ARE reloading so that you can shoot, RIGHT? RIGHT?)

I am now a convert to the wet tumbling sans media method using water, citric acid, and Armorall soap. I fill each drum about 2/3s to 3/4s full of brass, add hot water to little below where the lid sits, add 1/8 of a teaspoon of the citric acid powder, and 1/2 teaspoon of Armorall soap. Then I tumble for roughly two hours. If you add too much citric acid, some cases will become pinkish in color, I do not lose sleep over this, but those that wet tumble mainly for pretty brass might, so take it easy on the citric acid! After that, I dump the water (safely), rinse the brass, add water again, and add another 1/2 teaspoon of Armorall for a final rinse and to ensure the cases are nice and smoothly coated with the wax additive in the soap, because in my experience; the final step of Armorall-only rinse negates the need for case lube while reloading. After that runs for an hour, do not rinse, simply dry the cases on food dehydrator for at least two hours, once dry, reload per your normal routine. This works for me and it works well. Seasoned reloaders and clean brass worshippers will probably be clutching their chests in horror, but this works well for me.


Pictures!

Dirty brass:
16471




Tumbling away, note the Armorall and rubber bands on the tumbler drum that ensure the drum spins properly (Thumpers Tumbler snobs can contact me about donations for a more expensive tumbler):
16472




Nearly done, this the final rinse solution of Armorall soap and water:
16473





Drying after final Armorall rinse:
https://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMG_9775_zpszly211uz.jpg




Final product, ready to load!
16474

#Reloading (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Reloading) #Tumbling (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Tumbling) #Brass (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Brass)

[GuanoLoco]

Nice write up.

I use a similar process here with concrete mixer, 5 gallons of brass at a time, except:
1) Pre-process 10 mins with just water and brass, no chems; drain and rinse. This knocks the crud off and lets the chems get to work!
2) 20 mins with citric acid and wash-n-wax; drain and rinse
3) 20 mins with minimal citric acid and wash-n-wax, drain, rinse well (no suds in cases!) and drain well
4) Dry in dehydrator

SS pins over-clean the insides of cases and cause the case mouth expanders to stick; this is not desirable.

This process is designed to reduce time and maximize the effectiveness of the water. I think water fully leaded with dirt/oxidation/yuck is far less effective at cleaning.

[punkey71]

1) Pre-process 10 mins with just water and brass, no chems; drain and rinse. This knocks the crud off and lets the chems get to work!




I think I'm going to try this next go around. Makes sense.

LL, im not sure if your looking at GLs cement mixer or another options, but I snagged my FART on Amazon for about $140. Fits about 2,000 9mm. No where near the cement mixers capacity but it is enough for me.

Excellent write up as well!


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[1slow]

Nice write up.

I use a similar process here with concrete mixer, 5 gallons of brass at a time, except:
1) Pre-process 10 mins with just water and brass, no chems; drain and rinse. This knocks the crud off and lets the chems get to work!
2) 20 mins with citric acid and wash-n-wax; drain and rinse
3) 20 mins with minimal citric acid and wash-n-wax, drain, rinse well (no suds in cases!) and drain well
4) Dry in dehydrator

SS pins over-clean the insides of cases and cause the case mouth expanders to stick; this is not desirable.

This process is designed to reduce time and maximize the effectiveness of the water. I think water fully leaded with dirt/oxidation/yuck is far less effective at cleaning.

How much citric acid per 5 gallons of cases ?

[PPGMD]

My process is similar to GuanoLoco's. Except I use Franc... err Ajax with the first run through, and I just let them lay out in the sun on a suspended drying tray to dry.

The link to the bulk citrus acid was helpful, those little containers of lemishine don't last long when you are cleaning 5 gallons at a time.

[GuanoLoco]

How much citric acid per 5 gallons of cases ?

I haven't been measuring it. Maybe a tablespoon or two for the first cycle and maybe 1/3 of that for the second cycle. Generally less than you would think. Pink cases = way too much acid or time in acid bath.

I use enough wash-and-wax and water to get a good level of suds without soapy slopping out all over.

[LittleLebowski]

I haven't been measuring it. Maybe a tablespoon or two for the first cycle and maybe 1/3 of that for the second cycle. Generally less than you would think. Pink cases = way too much acid or time in acid bath.

I use enough wash-and-wax and water to get a good level of suds without soapy slopping out all over.

Yup, be very sparing on the citric acid. The citric acid is also handy for your dishes, dishwasher, and cleaning of your washing machine.

[DocSabo40]

Just tried tumbling without SS pins for the first time, and the cases look basically the same as with the pins, to me anyway. This is one of those minor little things that is going to make a big difference in my quality of life for reloading. If there's two things that get my goat, it's SS pins jamming my case feeder, and .380 brass ending up in my 9mm stock. This solves half of that. Thanks LL!

[Gingerkid]

Tried this week with excellent results. 1T dish soap and 1t lemishine. No more pins for me!!!

[GuanoLoco]

A little carbon/wax residue inside the cases is a good thing from a belling perspective - the powder/belling funnel doesn't stick as much.

[mmc45414]

Good idea about not rinsing after a second pass with Armor-All.

It looks like I have been using Waaaaaaaay toooooooo muuuuuuuch citric acid, though no pink cases.

I have enough cases that I am usually not in a hurry, I just lay them all flat on a towel on the basement floor, and they are dry in a few days. Overnight is good if the primers are out. YMMV.

The pins are a huge PITA, but rock if you get some nasty cases. I like having them, but may never use them again after doing the cruddy 9mm cases that helped nudge me into getting a F.A.R.T.

[jeep45238]

Good idea about not rinsing after a second pass with Armor-All.

It looks like I have been using Waaaaaaaay toooooooo muuuuuuuch citric acid, though no pink cases.

I have enough cases that I am usually not in a hurry, I just lay them all flat on a towel on the basement floor, and they are dry in a few days. Overnight is good if the primers are out. YMMV.

The pins are a huge PITA, but rock if you get some nasty cases. I like having them, but may never use them again after doing the cruddy 9mm cases that helped nudge me into getting a F.A.R.T.


I pick up some nasty, nasty cases, and the pins do make a huge difference for them.

I bought the high end Frankfort media separator for about $40, and it's taken care of the pin separation for me.

I dump straight from the FART to the separator, no rinsing. Spin a minute one direction, and a minute in the opposite direction. The dirty water from the fart and the soap has enough surface tension to get the pins to come out without a problem.

If you want to rinse, simply undo the 'latches' for the top portion, and rotate it under the basket, then dump the basket into the top. It has a mesh screen in the middle, and a little bit of water and shaking does a great job. I haven't found a pin in a case or the top since going to this method.

Time is less than dry tumbling still, and effort is about the same as dry tumbling.

For non-nasty cases, or stuff I won't be selling, I do it without pins, and use the separator to get more water out of the cases for faster drying in the dehumidifier.


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[mmc45414]

I pick up some nasty, nasty cases, and the pins do make a huge difference for them.
I bought the high end Frankfort media separator for about $40, and it's taken care of the pin separation for me.
I dump straight from the FART to the separator, no rinsing.
I bought my FART specifically for a bunch of really nasty 9mm cases I thought I got a good deal on.
I had the Dillon separator and it does a great job separating, but separating the pins from the water in the PITA, IMO. I can buy the magnet, and probably will, but am probably not going to use them that much so I have not yet.
I didn't think about not rinsing.

I related news, last night I used the Armor All for washing the cars, works pretty well for that also... :)

[jeep45238]

The trick is make sure there's a water level in the seperator that the brass is doing into while turning.

If you're spinning in a dry tumbler, there's no water surface tension to let the pins come loose from the brass.

https://youtu.be/_4xViGuvT_0


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[LittleLebowski]

Good idea about not rinsing after a second pass with Armor-All.

It looks like I have been using Waaaaaaaay toooooooo muuuuuuuch citric acid, though no pink cases.

I have enough cases that I am usually not in a hurry, I just lay them all flat on a towel on the basement floor, and they are dry in a few days. Overnight is good if the primers are out. YMMV.

The pins are a huge PITA, but rock if you get some nasty cases. I like having them, but may never use them again after doing the cruddy 9mm cases that helped nudge me into getting a F.A.R.T.

Just saying, have you tried the method detailed in the first post? I've used it with success on nasty cases.

[JCS]

I'm beginning to be really frustrated with the mess dry tumbling is creating. Those little pieces of media get everywhere and I'm always cleaning my press to keep it running.

I'm going to take the plunge and get a wet tumbler. What's the best bang for the buck? The FART? What all do I need?


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[punkey71]

I'm beginning to be really frustrated with the mess dry tumbling is creating. Those little pieces of media get everywhere and I'm always cleaning my press to keep it running.

I'm going to take the plunge and get a wet tumbler. What's the best bang for the buck? The FART? What all do I need?


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The mess/dust is why I went wet.

What's best value depends on your volume.

LL has the Harbor Freight Tumbler that does a few hundred rounds of 9 (I think) - $50

I have the FART. 2,000 rounds of 9 - $140

GuanoLoco rocks a large cement mixer that holds MANY thousands of rounds. About $300

LL links what you'll need above. Tumbler, acid, soap, dryer. Skip the pins imho.


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[GuanoLoco]

The mess/dust is why I went wet.

What's best value depends on your volume.

LL has the Harbor Freight Tumbler that does a few hundred rounds of 9 (I think) - $50

I have the FART. 2,000 rounds of 9 - $140

GuanoLoco rocks a large cement mixer that holds MANY thousands of rounds. About $300

LL links what you'll need above. Tumbler, acid, soap, dryer. Skip the pins imho.


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I can do a 5 gallon bucket of brass at a time, maybe 9000 9mm cases. Good thing, because I just scored 11 buckets, plus a friend brought me a gift of a bucket of 9 and a bucket of 40, plus there is a 7 gal bucket of mixed brass I've been accumulating, plus maybe a half dozen gallon bags of sorted brass.

I see a brass cleaning party in my future - as soon as I get my mixer and dryers back from a friend and get some job stuff behind me.

Use CamelCamelCamel to watch for FART deals on Amazon, plus other places run specials onm it. I've seen it down as low as $100. I've seen the cement mixer I use as low as $230. Armpor all wash-n-wax and bulk citric acid off Amazon are cost effective.

[mmc45414]

Just saying, have you tried the method detailed in the first post? I've used it with success on nasty cases.
Not precisely yet, I like your idea of the second pass with no rince and plan to try that next time.

I have been getting great results without the pins, but I think I have been using/wasting too much of the bulk citric acid.

Really glad I went back to wet, and the pins, IMO, are overkill in most cases.

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[LittleLebowski]

If your cases are getting a pink hue, you're using too much citiric acid.

I like the HF tumbler and note that HF is having a sale this weekend. The HF is not a FART but is the FART worth two HFs? Only you can answer the last.

[Boxy]

I wet tumbled with SS media and the tried it without the SS pins. Much better without pins to recover. Less overhead than dry vibrattion with corn cob media and I clean more brass in one batch.

[mmc45414]

If your cases are getting a pink hue, you're using too much citiric acid.
No pink hue, but if you are getting good results with 1/8 of a teaspoon of the citric acid I have been wasting a bunch of it. I poured the bulk back into the Lemishine bottle, and have just been using "some", but it has been way more than you are. Getting good results, but I can probably back off significantly.

And if a guy is going to skip the pins anyway, the HF looks like an option. I think they should offer a FART option without the pins.

[LittleLebowski]

No pink hue, but if you are getting good results with 1/8 of a teaspoon of the citric acid I have been wasting a bunch of it. I poured the bulk back into the Lemishine bottle, and have just been using "some", but it has been way more than you are. Getting good results, but I can probably back off significantly.

And if a guy is going to skip the pins anyway, the HF looks like an option. I think they should offer a FART option without the pins.

I really need to build a single, large, PVC drum for my HF. The dual drums are annoying

[JCS]

If your cases are getting a pink hue, you're using too much citiric acid.

I like the HF tumbler and note that HF is having a sale this weekend. The HF is not a FART but is the FART worth two HFs? Only you can answer the last.

Thanks for the heads up. I see they are running a 25% off sale on Monday for a single item. I have one not too far from me.

Do you recommend the double one?


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[LittleLebowski]

Thanks for the heads up. I see they are running a 25% off sale on Monday for a single item. I have one not too far from me.

Do you recommend the double one?


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[JCS]

Took the plunge and picked up the harbor freight dual tumbler on sale for $40 today.

It may be a bit before I get a dehydrator so in the meantime does anyone have any recommendations on alternative drying methods?

I see someone said they just set them on a towel. I'll go with that unless someone has another suggestion.


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[mmc45414]

Took the plunge and picked up the harbor freight dual tumbler on sale for $40 today.

It may be a bit before I get a dehydrator so in the meantime does anyone have any recommendations on alternative drying methods?

I see someone said they just set them on a towel. I'll go with that unless someone has another suggestion.


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That was me.

I pour them on a towel, kinda form sort of a tube out of the towel, grab the ends and hold to apart end to end, and roll the cases back and forth a few times. Then I make sure they are all tipped over on their sides.

In a few days they will be ready, depending on local humidity. I grab one and push out a primers to check.

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[GuanoLoco]

Took the plunge and picked up the harbor freight dual tumbler on sale for $40 today.

It may be a bit before I get a dehydrator so in the meantime does anyone have any recommendations on alternative drying methods?

I see someone said they just set them on a towel. I'll go with that unless someone has another suggestion.


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Towel dry and shake out as much water as possible. Spread out. Any form of air movement or heat will accelerate the drying process (fan, heat lamp, sunlight).

Maybe in oven on lowest heat possible with door cracked open to let moisture escape - do not overdo.

[jeep45238]

I found a toaster oven with a cracked door to be too much, fyi


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[mmc45414]

I see someone said they just set them on a towel.
To elaborate on this a bit more, I used to have one of the old style RCBS wet tumblers and that was before you could get a dehydrator for $50. All I ever did was lay them flat on a towel (and all I will probably continue to do, but I have my dry machine to fall back on). It takes a few days, and eventually you will probably want a dryer, but as someone who has accumulated a lotta reloading equipment I sure didn't buy it all at the same time. The wet process is so fast you can cycle a lot of cases through the tumbler in an evening, you will just have to remember to do it a few days in advance.

One thing I wanted to mention as an option is they dry out probably overnight without the primers. I have a Lee decap die that is cheap (and handy), or maybe use a size die for a larger cartridge. This is not something you are going to want to do all the time, just an option for "Crap, I forgot to tumble and I need to load 150 rounds tomorrow" kinda situation.

[chances R]

I have wet tumbled for the past 5 years. Old lortone 12lb rock tumbler bought used off ebay. Original 5 lb SS pins. 1 teaspoon lemishine, few drop of dawn and tumble or about 90min to 2hrs. rinse till clear in sink. Separate in Dillon separater. Do this on a black sheet to easily locate runaway pins. spread out in sun for a couple of hours or put in a wire basket and dry in oven for an hour at 200 degrees. Shiny, clean brass and other than lemishine haven't had to buy anything else in 5 years. Completely satisfied with results

[LittleLebowski]

I have wet tumbled for the past 5 years. Old lortone 12lb rock tumbler bought used off ebay. Original 5 lb SS pins. 1 teaspoon lemishine, few drop of dawn and tumble or about 90min to 2hrs. rinse till clear in sink. Separate in Dillon separater. Do this on a black sheet to easily locate runaway pins. spread out in sun for a couple of hours or put in a wire basket and dry in oven for an hour at 200 degrees. Shiny, clean brass and other than lemishine haven't had to buy anything else in 5 years. Completely satisfied with results

The process detailed in this thread is easier.

[chances R]

Easier , maybe a little. Prettier, nope? As you mentioned it is a hobby, but life is too short to shoot dull ammo. I enjoy producing quality rounds in reliable function and appearance. Really not that much more work. To each their own.

[chances R]

Agree . And the OP did mention the duller finish. Just pointing out why I prefer pins. Different ways to skin the cat appreciated.

[LtDave]

I have wet tumbled for the past 5 years. Old lortone 12lb rock tumbler bought used off ebay. Original 5 lb SS pins. 1 teaspoon lemishine, few drop of dawn and tumble or about 90min to 2hrs. rinse till clear in sink. Separate in Dillon separater. Do this on a black sheet to easily locate runaway pins. spread out in sun for a couple of hours or put in a wire basket and dry in oven for an hour at 200 degrees. Shiny, clean brass and other than lemishine haven't had to buy anything else in 5 years. Completely satisfied with results

This is very similar to my process except I've been using ceramic media instead of SS pins. I use the oven at 200 degrees, but only for 1/2 hour. My neighbor dries his in the sun. I've done a couple of batches without the media. Cleans the brass, but not as shiny as others have noted.

[LittleLebowski]

Agree . And the OP did mention the duller finish. Just pointing out why I prefer pins. Different ways to skin the cat appreciated.

"Duller" is subjective.

[1slow]

My purpose in reloading is to have safe, precise, less expensive ammo with minimum trouble and time. As long the brass is clean enough to meet those goals, that is good enough for me.

[LittleLebowski]

My purpose in reloading is to have safe, precise, less expensive ammo with minimum trouble and time. As long the brass is clean enough to meet those goals, that is good enough for me.

Same here. Eliminating the pins saved me time and met my goals.

[chances R]

And in another forum a fellow near where I am simply washes his in car wash liquid/suds, rinses and drys. Simply having clean brass without foreign material to mess up your dies or scratch up the brass is the bottom line.

[mmc45414]

"Duller" is subjective.
Yeah, retrospectively the thread name may be a bit misleading. If I am running once fired brass I shot and picked up it looks the same without the pins. If it is really grungy the pins make it look like it was never grungy.

[dwhite]

I just wanted to post a big thank you for this thread!

Based on the info here, I just finished my first batch of 38/357 brass and they came out awesome -- looks like new brass.

I'm using the FART and kinda struggled to find a starting formula for the chemicals. So, in order to help others, here's what worked for me (admittedly it's only my first batch):
1 teaspoon of citric acid
1 Tablespoon of ArmorAll

Thanks again for the detailed info.

[Malamute]

I just saw a pic elsewhere about drying brass and realized I have some high volume solar drying racks in the basement. I always thought they were window screens!

[mtnbkr]

Thread necro...

With the death of my vibratory tumbler this Summer, I repurposed my kids' neglected Lortone rock tumbler. I don't use steel pins, but just fill the tumbler with brass, dump in some Lemishine, and a splash of detergent (laundry because it's handy). I run it for an hour or 4 (depending on when I remember to stop it), dump the liquid, rinse a few times, shake brass in a sieve to remove excess water, and spread out on my "outdoor work bench" to dry in the sun. Brass ends up looking better than it ever did with the dry tumbler and is less of a PITA to deal with. My little tumbler can hold roughly 130 223 cases or 80 308. It holds a bunch of 44mag, 38special, etc, but I haven't counted. I can typically get a range trip's worth of brass cleaned in a couple cycles.

Chris

[punkey71]

Try GuanoLoco's suggestion of a quick hot-water-only pre rinse.

Doing so for 5 minutes let me do a 1 hour clean with soap with very acceptable results.

A quick 5 minutes with just hot water gets all the loose stuff off and let's the degreasing Dawn suds work better, in my experience.


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[Mark D]

Bumping an old thread because it deserves it.

I recently tried dry tumbling 9mm brass using my buddy's Hornady vibratory tumbler. It was giant pain in the a**.

This thread inspired me to buy a Harbor Freight dual drum tumbler on Black Friday. $60 shipped to my doorstep. I've since cleaned 1500-2000 9mm cases using LL's method, and it is sweet. Minimal effort, no dust, and shiny clean brass.

I don't have Armor All so I substitute some McGuire's auto wash and wax. Seems to work fine.

[richiecotite]

I’ve had my wet tumbler for a few months now. The hornady dry tumbler I had died ( not its fault, I left it outside on the deck for a few months to do my tumbling due to dry media all over the damn place in my workroom)

I’ve found for pistol Lebowskis method works pretty well. I tried it with .308 brass with the spent primer removed, and just could not get the pockets clean enough to my liking. I just started reloading rifle, and I don’t know if primer pocket cleanliness affects accuracy, but I see enough people talk about clean primer pockets I just decided it’s worth the extra steps. I also only have probably 200 cases, so not high volume at all.

To others using the LittleLebowski method, are you doing this with rifle brass? If so, are the primer pockets an issue?

I also tried the mini toaster oven method and found 30 minutes at 150 degrees gets em pretty dry. I just lay em out on a towel and turn my 17 year old box fan on overnight.


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[Malamute]

...I tried it with .308 brass with the spent primer removed, and just could not get the pockets clean enough to my liking. I just started reloading rifle, and I don’t know if primer pocket cleanliness affects accuracy, but I see enough people talk about clean primer pockets I just decided it’s worth the extra steps...

I use the cheap little Lee primer pocket cleaner, even when not cleaning brass otherwise. Theres other tools, some are a small stiff brush on a handle. Lyman and RCBS make some variation of primer pocket cleaning tools. I think it took maybe 3-4 seconds per round when sitting on the porch step with the brass in baskets for easy handling.

[Hambo]

If I could get away with it I'd run cloth bags of brass through the washer and then dry in the oven.

[Gio]

Necroing this one again because I'm about to convert from dry to wet tumbling...

What is the best for laying the brass out to dry?

I'm considering spreading them out on some old rag towels and letting them air dry on the drive way, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Alpha Sierra]

I tried it with .308 brass with the spent primer removed, and just could not get the pockets clean enough to my liking. I just started reloading rifle, and I don’t know if primer pocket cleanliness affects accuracy, but I see enough people talk about clean primer pockets I just decided it’s worth the extra steps.

I'm a very experience precision (NRA highpower/NRA prone/PRS) rifle reloader and I can tell you for a fact that primer pocket cleanliness is extremely overblown. I don't worry about it and suggest you don't either.

I don't know what the "Lebowski" method is.

Here's what I do (rifle or pistol):

Fill tumbler with cases
Add dish soap and lemishine, amount not critical
Run tap till water is scalding hot
Fill tumbler drum till water is over the top of the cases
Put drum in tumbler and let it run while I do other things (usually 1 - 2 hrs)
Drain out dirty water with cases still in drum
Fill and drain the drum (with cases) a couple of times with tap water
Empty drum into media separator and tumble cases a few spins to drain out water
Line toaster oven bake tray with aluminum foil and spread cases out on it
Bake at 240 F for 30 min
Lay out to cool


Cases are spotlessly clean outside and relatively clean inside. Note: I don't care about cleaning the inside of them either. Then I deprime and move on with the rest of the process

Oh yeah, no SS pins/media involved. Completely unnecessary if all you want are clean cases. I don't care about shiny cases, only clean ones.

I'll repeat the tumble and dry cycle with rifle cases after resizing to remove the die lube. I use carbide dies for handgun cartridges so lube is not used.

[GuanoLoco]

I'm a very experience precision (NRA highpower/NRA prone/PRS) rifle reloader and I can tell you for a fact that primer pocket cleanliness is extremely overblown. I don't worry about it and suggest you don't either.

I don't know what the "Lebowski" method is.

Here's what I do (rifle or pistol):

Fill tumbler with cases
Add dish soap and lemishine, amount not critical
Run tap till water is scalding hot
Fill tumbler drum till water is over the top of the cases
Put drum in tumbler and let it run while I do other things (usually 1 - 2 hrs)
Drain out dirty water with cases still in drum
Fill and drain the drum (with cases) a couple of times with tap water
Empty drum into media separator and tumble cases a few spins to drain out water
Line toaster oven bake tray with aluminum foil and spread cases out on it
Bake at 240 F for 30 min
Lay out to cool


Cases are spotlessly clean outside and relatively clean inside. Note: I don't care about cleaning the inside of them either. Then I deprime and move on with the rest of the process

Oh yeah, no SS pins/media involved. Completely unnecessary if all you want are clean cases. I don't care about shiny cases, only clean ones.

I'll repeat the tumble and dry cycle with rifle cases after resizing to remove the die lube. I use carbide dies for handgun cartridges so lube is not used.

I'd suggest that the hot water isn't required (I use a cement mixed and cold hose water).

I'd strongly suggest an early drain/refill cycle after 10 minutes or so. Tumbling in nasty water isn't very helpful and can be counter-productive. This is one of the biggest things I did that gives better and more consistent results - faster.

[Pepper]

Necroing this one again because I'm about to convert from dry to wet tumbling...

What is the best for laying the brass out to dry?

I'm considering spreading them out on some old rag towels and letting them air dry on the drive way, but I'm open to suggestions.

That's exactly what I do. Works great!

[Alpha Sierra]

I'd suggest that the hot water isn't required (I use a cement mixed and cold hose water).

I'd strongly suggest an early drain/refill cycle after 10 minutes or so. Tumbling in nasty water isn't very helpful and can be counter-productive. This is one of the biggest things I did that gives better and more consistent results - faster.

Appreciate the feedback. While in theory you may be right, my cases come out clean enough for my purposes without the extra effort.

[mmc45414]

I'm considering spreading them out on some old rag towels and letting them air dry on the drive way

That's exactly what I do. Works great!
I also just lay them out on towels but don't bother taking them outside. 99.9% of my loading is for pistols that I have plenty of brass for and I typically have enough that I can just lay them out in the basement, either on a table or even just on the floor. I usually leave them for days, before I start loading them I will punch out a couple of primers and look for any moisture to double check.

[chris11C]

Been following this and other threads on this subject as my time like everyone else's is important.

I have been pinless tumbling the last couple of times and I am a convert. The outsides are great, the insides are clean enough...clean enough to not have to f with pins again. I will have to try the 10min pre cleaning, but my method works really well for me.
-Pour two bottles of brass into tumbler ( I cut the very top off of a 2 liter. 2 of these is about 1600 cases)
-Take out 1 9mm case
-Add warm water to an inch or so above brass level
-Add a good 3 second squirt of blue dawn and use the dry 9mm case to add 1.5 9mm cases worth of lemishine
-Tumble 2 hours
-Rinse really well
-Pour cases in towel and "bowling ball" them back and forth
-Lay out cases on different towel on a table in back room
-Stir around a few hours later
-Cover with dry towel later some time to keep dust off cases
-Bag and store next to press after decaping a few and checking for moisture
This works well for me. The cases are 99% spot free, no weird colors, and really clean.

Thank you everyone for this thread!

[GuanoLoco]

I’m using a cement mixer so it’s relatively easy to drain and check results as I go.

Last session I cleaned about 4.5 5 gallon buckets filled to the brim. I find a 4 gallon batch works best for my setup with 2 x 1000 watt dehydrators.

I was shocked at what a 10 minute cycle with light soap (Wash-N-Wax) / citric acid, then drain/refill, then 20 minutes with lighter soap/citric acid did. After 30 minutes I literally could have declared ‘DONE!’ - but of course I went further. Drying is the long pole in the tent; it takes me a good 90 minutes to dry 4 gallons of well-drained, towel-dried brass. I just throw a towel in the mixer at the end.

[GNiner]

Since I changed to the 10 min pre-cycle that GL recommended, I have found that 15-20 min on the second cycle is all that is needed and my brass is cleaner than when I was just washing a solid 2 hrs from the start.

[GuanoLoco]

My theory on this is that the dirt eventually combines with the soap/wax (I use Armor All Wash-n-Wax) and re-deposits on the brass, which is then even harrder to clean.

Once the brass gets to the desired state of cleanliness (after ~30+ minutes) and I have 60 minutes to kill before the prior batch is dried I usually run a drain cycle, then refill with water, very light citric acid and almost no soap to keep it from tarnishing. The water poured off this final step is a pale green from the brass tarnish.

Too much acid and the brass turns pink from leaching out the zinc - no bueno.

I’m only using cold tap water from the hose, so warm/hot water isn’t required.

[chris11C]

Not to derail, but those who run the Wash and Wax, can you tell a difference when not using it? If using the Wash and Wax, does it stain the brass after a while sitting in bags? After reading this thread, I do recall the water in the tumbler being extremely dirty right away, shortening my cleaning time from 2hrs to half would be awesome. Thank you everyone again!

[LittleLebowski]

Not to derail, but those who run the Wash and Wax, can you tell a difference when not using it? If using the Wash and Wax, does it stain the brass after a while sitting in bags? After reading this thread, I do recall the water in the tumbler being extremely dirty right away, shortening my cleaning time from 2hrs to half would be awesome. Thank you everyone again!

Yes, lubricates cases for feeding into the reloader and bullet seating. No, not at all.

[GuanoLoco]

Not to derail, but those who run the Wash and Wax, can you tell a difference when not using it? If using the Wash and Wax, does it stain the brass after a while sitting in bags? After reading this thread, I do recall the water in the tumbler being extremely dirty right away, shortening my cleaning time from 2hrs to half would be awesome. Thank you everyone again!

I'm not sure I am a firm believer in Wash-and-Wax vs. Joy vs. whatever. I'm not convinced any residual wax keeps (especially wet) brass from tarnishing any faster. BUT, I got a couple of big jugs of it cheap and see no reason to change either.

I do think that using far more soap and citric acid than is necessary is the norm - my experience tends to be less is more, especially when combined with drain cycle(s).

[Alpha Sierra]

One thing to remember is that soap is a surfactant (reduces the surface tension between solids and liquids) and an emulsifier (allows immiscible liquids such as water and organic liquids to mix).

So using sufficient soap would keep the dirt in suspension and not let it deposit on the cases again. If that's not what's happening in your cleaning cycle, adding more soap at the start would be my first step.

[GuanoLoco]

Interesting, thanks.

In my case with the cement mixer I have another factor. I fabricated a rubber wiper on one of the blades used to turn the concrete. This moves the brass better than a metal blade with a big hole in it. Also, the more I angle the mixer, the more action I get, but this also reduces the anmoubt of water I can use as it slops out more easily when angled more.

I’m a big fan of the more violent action for brass-on-brass cleaning action, but it may also be contributing to losing the volume of soapy water required to keep the dirt in suspension.

[ranger]

Has anyone full size resized rifle brass after this technique (car wash-wax) and not used traditional case lube? Eliminating the case lube and case lube cleaning steps would be huge.

[willie]

I have not and urge you not to try it. The residue on the case is too thin to serve as good case lube. If you attempt this with a new size die that's dry because it has not been used, I say that you will stick a case on the first attempt. On a die already wet with lube, you might a couple before having a dreaded stuck case. Should you attempt to size blown out .7.62 Nato fired in machine guns or a 303 British case fired in these guns' oversize chambers or should you try to use an undersize resize die then you will be in trouble. Even when using different brands of so called good case lube, you can readily see that some perform better than others. Years ago I reloaded 380 and 32acp cases with a regular steel die and did not use regular case lube. I did, though, kept my fingers moist with some type cheap liquid lube like 3 in 1. These cases were too short to cause problems.

[GuanoLoco]

Willie nailed it. There isn’t enough residual wax from the Wash-n-Wax to prevent tarnish, much less lubricate a rifle case prior to resizing. Hell I’ve lubricated PISTOL brass to ease resizing when I preprocess (size/decap/swage) pistol brass at 2400 RPH on a Mark 7/1050 prior to loading.

Invest in a stuck case remover before you experiment with this. Like Willie, I predict the first case will stick.

[ranger]

Thanks - I assumed they would stick also

[ranger]

Inspired by the thread. Bought a Harbor Freight tumbler thing with a 20% discount. Local discount store had a dehydrator for $30. Have some auto wash-wax for washing cars. Bought some Lemi-Shine. Did a bunch or 223 that needed case lube remove - merely ok. Just did some once fired 6.5CM and 223 - that worked well. Will continue to experiment.

[TCB]

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10 minutes with just water, 30-45 minutes with a Tablespoon of Armor All W&W and a Teaspoon of Lemshine & 20 minutes with just a touch of W&W in an Extreme Rebel 17 tumbler. (Fresh water for each step)

I can’t believe I waited so long to switch over from walnut shells and Dillon tumbling compound. I can do twice as much brass in half the time with way better results.

I’d estimate 1500-2000 rounds of 45 Auto on the table from 3 batches with the above recipe.

This thread has benefited me greatly...thank you!

[mmc45414]

I’d estimate 1500-2000 rounds of 45 Auto on the tableAnd I bet in your climate they are already dry :)

[TCB]

They’ve been out there for 2-4 hours and yea...totally dry as far as I can tell. I’ll let them sit most of tomorrow just to be sure.

[mmc45414]

They’ve been out there for 2-4 hours and yea...totally dry as far as I can tell. I’ll let them sit most of tomorrow just to be sure.
I will usually push a primer out and check one before I declare them ready to load. In my climate (Ohio) I just lay them out in my basement, I have enough brass I can easily do this a week in advance. The tumbling is so fast I just do a bunch when I think about it and I pretty much always have clean cases.

[Ancient1]

Because of this topic I'm no longer in trouble with my wife. I was using a vibrator... pun intended... My wife could not stand the noise and neither did my cat. I could get my brass clean with it but it took many hours of horrific noise. Then Mr. Little L. You changed all that. I could not justify wet with pins, nor the hassle.

Yesterday I went to Harbor Freight and I purchased the single barrel (hiccup! that was good) and today I tried it out. 45 minutes for my first pass and it is 90% as clean as 6 hours in the vibrator with coated corn cobs. The biggest change is the noise and the shaking of the house is gone. Now I can pop the primers and then they go back into the soup and spin it again for my final cleaning. On that pass, I'll add my touch of polish and acid before I start reloading that brass. The single barrel holds just over 100 rounds of brass which is good for me.

Mr Little L. You changed my life and did it on the cheap.

Just a note on my first formula. I had to improvise a bit. I didn't have the citric acid, but I did have some ascorbic acid (vitamin C) so I crushed 2 tablets into powder (I'll but some citric acid from amazon today, till it gets here the ascorbic acid seems to work great but much more expensive). I used a few drops of Dawn on top of the acid with hot water.

Thanks so very much,
Jim

[Malamute]

I found some old 556 brass in dads basement that was submerged in a basement flood several years ago. The bag was still wet inside. I ran them through the dual drum harbor freight rotary tumbler for one cycle, maybe an hour or so. This was the result. Not perfect, but it removed the corroded stains better than the Dillon dry vibratory tumbler has, and I wouldnt worry now about running it through my dies.

Ive also done some of the same bunch of brass without the tumbler, just in a bucket, add the stuff (dish soap, lemishine and warm water), slosh around now and then and mostly sit for a couple hours, then rinse. The results were still surprisingly good, removing much of the corrosion stains. i think it may be quite good enough to average brass.

Walmart has small bottles of lemishine for very cheap. Perhaps not as cheap as one can get it online, but cheap enough to not have to deal with shipping costs or waiting. The one I have will probably last a couple years or more.

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