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Clusterfrack
05-03-2017, 05:37 PM
Clusterfrack's 10mm Bearkiller load

Use at your own risk; work up load carefully in each gun!

Test gun: Gen4 Glock 20, 24# ISMI recoil spring, Glockmeister guiderod (http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Spring-Assembly-for-Gen-4-20-21-40-41/productinfo/G4SS20CS/)

Bullet: 200 gr Beartooth lead hard cast gas check (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/display.php?catagory=6)
COL: 1.240”
Primer: CCI #300 (non-magnum)
Brass: Starline (virgin brass)
Charge: 9.0gr IMR 800-X (metered in RCBS Chargemaster)
Chrono: average 1209 fps, sd = 8, n = 16

Notes:
Recoil was heavy but controllable. Smoke was surprisingly low, and I didn't notice a big muzzle flash. All brass had mild bulging, dinged rim, ejection dent, flattened primers, and heavier striker channel marks.

This is a followup to some initial load research I did to try to work up a 10mm load for grizzly defense in Montana and Alaska. I had tested this load at COL: 1.260” in a G4 Glock 20 (w/24# recoil spring) and had multiple failure to feed malfunctions when mags were loaded to full capacity. The problem appears to be caused by the wide, square nose of the bullet rubbing against the inside of the magazine. Reducing COL to 1.240" solved this problem, and I've had no further malfunctions.

See the 9mm Outdoor thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25291-9mm-Outdoor-Load/page9) for some interesting and useful discussion about handgun use against bears.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170503/cc3150371f25ba8eb120fdd2fe6cb72a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170503/09fa7712021732bae10b980f73189971.jpg

GJM
05-03-2017, 05:39 PM
Nice!

Did you do reliability testing, shooting one hand with a compromised grip, like you might do if Gabe, I mean a bear, was chewing on one arm?

Clusterfrack
05-03-2017, 05:41 PM
Nice!

Did you do reliability testing, shooting one hand with a compromised grip, like you might do if Gabe, I mean a bear, was chewing on one arm?

Good idea. Not yet. I plan to do that after the JMCK AIWB 2.5 for the G20 shows up. I also need to pick a time when Gabe is free.

GJM
05-03-2017, 05:51 PM
So I had this heavy FMJ penetrator load, from Double Tap, that I thought I had vetted in my Glock 29. I was successful hunting, harvested this massive moose, and managed to injure my right wrist paddling umpteen loads to the float plane. Got back to the cabin, was running to the float base on the four wheeler, and came upon this spruce hen. I decided to harvest it for dinner, made a careful head shot at 15 yards, holding the Glock as well as I could. Got the bird, and a big, fat stoppage. Realized all my testing was with two hands, and a firm grip. Now I do a fair amount of testing one hand, holding the pistol lightly.

Lester Polfus
05-03-2017, 06:07 PM
Awesome. I suspect you are correct about the seating depth. This page (http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html) talks about blunt profile bullets in reference to the .38 Super, but the same principals apply.

What diameter are your bullet sized?

JHC
05-03-2017, 06:14 PM
Awesome work! If it all pans out, it'd be great if the boutique factory loaders would pay attention to the overall length lessons.

Clusterfrack
05-03-2017, 06:34 PM
Awesome. I suspect you are correct about the seating depth. This page (http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html) talks about blunt profile bullets in reference to the .38 Super, but the same principals apply.

What diameter are your bullet sized?

Box says 0.401", confirmed by mic.

Lester Polfus
05-03-2017, 06:44 PM
Box says 0.401", confirmed by mic.

Cool. You just ran the experiment that I was planning on running this fall after hunting season and such. I've often thought that the problem with the wide meplat 10mm loads was seating depth.

I've still got it on my things to do. I'm going to experiment with some powders other than 800x, like Longshot and Blue Dot. I'm also not necessarily wedded to the idea of hitting 1200FPS. Around 1100 would make me happy.


Thanks for the solid info.

GJM
05-03-2017, 06:51 PM
In that Garrett loads their Defender bear load for the S&W 329 to 1,020 fps (out of a four inch barrel), I would gladly accept 1,100 FPS out of the 10mm hard cast load, especially if that was closer to the design envelope for that pistol, and was more reliable.

Lester Polfus
05-03-2017, 06:57 PM
In that Garrett loads their Defender bear load for the S&W 329 to 1,020 fps (out of a four inch barrel), I would gladly accept 1,100 FPS out of the 10mm hard cast load, especially if that was closer to the design envelope for that pistol, and was more reliable.

Exactly. Once you start measuring penetration in feet, I'm less concerned about wringing every last FPS out of the load, for controlability and reliability concerns. I can tell you there is a noticeable difference in shootability between a 200@ 1100 and a 200 @1200 out of a Glock 20.

The thing is, what sells ammo is the velocity on the box flap. If somebody tried market such a load, I'm not sure it would sell when folks compared it to the alleged 1300 FPS velocity of the Double Tap load, particularly since many folks won't shoot enough to figure out it chokes the gun.

Malamute
05-03-2017, 07:10 PM
Awesome. I suspect you are correct about the seating depth. This page (http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html) talks about blunt profile bullets in reference to the .38 Super, but the same principals apply.




That's a good link. It has some good descriptions and images. I think the difference in OAL VS bullet profile doesnt compute for some people. You have to factor in bullet nose shape, diameter just ahead of the case mouth, and the throat of individual barrels to get a broader picture of how to work with the load.

Clusterfrack
05-03-2017, 07:20 PM
Now with sealed primers.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/a5b548f04e6b3ec2f66f12ead28c9e1f.jpg

Clusterfrack
05-03-2017, 07:38 PM
In that Garrett loads their Defender bear load for the S&W 329 to 1,020 fps (out of a four inch barrel), I would gladly accept 1,100 FPS out of the 10mm hard cast load, especially if that was closer to the design envelope for that pistol, and was more reliable.

8.0 gr of 800-X gives 1100 fps with this bullet. 8.0 definitely isn't as stout recoil-wise as the 9.0gr loads, but is still "full 10mm" heavy. I'm not convinced so far that there's a reliability issue associated with charge weight. After I swapped out the very under-sprung OEM guiderod for the 24# spring, I've not had any cycling-related issues with any of my heavy loads. I'll report back after I do the test you suggested. Might have to try it tomorrow while I'm out practicing with rifle teammate (getting ready for the Scout Sniper Challenge in Kettle Falls WA).

GJM
05-03-2017, 07:45 PM
In the the testing I did over the past 15 years, I could not correlate after market barrels, guide rods, or recoil springs with reliability. It did seem like bullet type (FMJ vs hard cast), bullet shape (meplat) and overall power factor did influence reliability, with wide meplat hard cast at high power factors least reliable, and loads like factory Hornady XTP 180/200 most reliable.

Lester Polfus
05-04-2017, 12:26 AM
In the the testing I did over the past 15 years, I could not correlate after market barrels, guide rods, or recoil springs with reliability. It did seem like bullet type (FMJ vs hard cast), bullet shape (meplat) and overall power factor did influence reliability, with wide meplat hard cast at high power factors least reliable, and loads like factory Hornady XTP 180/200 most reliable.

I think the bullet shape and seating depth is the factor that's most important with these loads. The recoil spring won't help with the magazine spring push a big column of heavy bullets that are rubbing against the sides of the mag body. In fact, having the slide go forward with more velocity probably makes it worse.

It seems a properly set up 1911 in 10mm can gobble them right up, but it's a single column magazine, and you can also do quite a bit to retard slide velocity with firing pin stops and mainsprings, but as you've pointed out in other threads they have some issues for this purpose.

JHC
05-04-2017, 05:36 AM
8.0 gr of 800-X gives 1100 fps with this bullet. 8.0 definitely isn't as stout recoil-wise as the 9.0gr loads, but is still "full 10mm" heavy. I'm not convinced so far that there's a reliability issue associated with charge weight. After I swapped out the very under-sprung OEM guiderod for the 24# spring, I've not had any cycling-related issues with any of my heavy loads. I'll report back after I do the test you suggested. Might have to try it tomorrow while I'm out practicing with rifle teammate (getting ready for the Scout Sniper Challenge in Kettle Falls WA).

To George's point about the Garrett defender load; seems the history is long that a stout hard cast flat meplat slug of whatever caliber doing around 1000 fps penetrates like crazy on game. I think there is a lot of room, a significant window of velocity to work around to dial in a reliable load.

Clusterfrack
05-04-2017, 06:29 PM
Ok, here's the report from today's reliability testing. There's good and bad news, and George was spot on about problems when grip is less this ideal.

Weak hand, loose grip yielded good results until the mag was down to 9 rounds. Then this happened twice in a row:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

A solid two handed grip returned the gun to reliable function.

So, I'm admitting defeat. Looks like I'll carry the .44 SBH in Alaska. I'm kinda excited about training some more with that gun.

Thanks for all the help, dudes.

El Cid
05-04-2017, 06:50 PM
Ok, here's the report from today's reliability testing. There's good and bad news, and George was spot on about problems when grip is less this ideal.

Weak hand, loose grip yielded good results until the mag was down to 9 rounds. Then this happened twice in a row:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

A solid two handed grip returned the gun to reliable function.

So, I'm admitting defeat. Looks like I'll carry the .44 SBH in Alaska. I'm kinda excited about training some more with that gun.

Thanks for all the help, dudes.

Anyone in your AO with a G40? Mine shoots much nicer than other G20's I've shot over the years. I don't hand load but I'll try the one handed shooting with the loads I'm using.

GJM
05-04-2017, 07:08 PM
Ok, here's the report from today's reliability testing. There's good and bad news, and George was spot on about problems when grip is less this ideal.

Weak hand, loose grip yielded good results until the mag was down to 9 rounds. Then this happened twice in a row:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

A solid two handed grip returned the gun to reliable function.

So, I'm admitting defeat. Looks like I'll carry the .44 SBH in Alaska. I'm kinda excited about training some more with that gun.

Thanks for all the help, dudes.

I applaud you for going to the trouble to develop the loads, but especially to properly vett the finished product. Most guys are half a mag and GTG. I have lost track how many times I have tried and been disappointed with a G20/29. The big Glock will be interesting to test. Not too late to grab a USP. :)

Clusterfrack
05-04-2017, 07:15 PM
Anyone in your AO with a G40? Mine shoots much nicer than other G20's I've shot over the years. I don't hand load but I'll try the one handed shooting with the loads I'm using.

Actually a guy I know used to have a G40 until recently. He was shooting it with a .40 conversion barrel and it blew up. Complete destruction of the gun. Fortunately all that happened to the guy was a need for change of undies.

El Cid
05-04-2017, 07:30 PM
Actually a guy I know used to have a G40 until recently. He was shooting it with a .40 conversion barrel and it blew up. Complete destruction of the gun. Fortunately all that happened to the guy was a need for change of undies.

Um... wow!

mtboz
03-15-2019, 09:25 AM
Very cool! Do you crimp these (and if so, taper, roll, lee factory?).



Clusterfrack's 10mm Bearkiller load

Use at your own risk; work up load carefully in each gun!

Test gun: Gen4 Glock 20, 24# ISMI recoil spring, Glockmeister guiderod (http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Spring-Assembly-for-Gen-4-20-21-40-41/productinfo/G4SS20CS/)

Bullet: 200 gr Beartooth lead hard cast gas check (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/display.php?catagory=6)
COL: 1.240”
Primer: CCI #300 (non-magnum)
Brass: Starline (virgin brass)
Charge: 9.0gr IMR 800-X (metered in RCBS Chargemaster)
Chrono: average 1209 fps, sd = 8, n = 16

Notes:
Recoil was heavy but controllable. Smoke was surprisingly low, and I didn't notice a big muzzle flash. All brass had mild bulging, dinged rim, ejection dent, flattened primers, and heavier striker channel marks.

This is a followup to some initial load research I did to try to work up a 10mm load for grizzly defense in Montana and Alaska. I had tested this load at COL: 1.260” in a G4 Glock 20 (w/24# recoil spring) and had multiple failure to feed malfunctions when mags were loaded to full capacity. The problem appears to be caused by the wide, square nose of the bullet rubbing against the inside of the magazine. Reducing COL to 1.240" solved this problem, and I've had no further malfunctions.

See the 9mm Outdoor thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25291-9mm-Outdoor-Load/page9) for some interesting and useful discussion about handgun use against bears.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170503/cc3150371f25ba8eb120fdd2fe6cb72a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170503/09fa7712021732bae10b980f73189971.jpg

Clusterfrack
03-15-2019, 03:21 PM
Very cool! Do you crimp these (and if so, taper, roll, lee factory?).

Factory crimp. However, I abandoned hard cast because of failure to feed. I’m now using Lehigh XP with great results.

mtboz
03-16-2019, 08:38 AM
Has anyone tried these wide meplats with extra power mag springs? 460 rowland highly recommends extra power / heavy mag springs for proper cycling in glocks. The math seems right for the heavier bullets - faster slide due to recoil and extra power recoil springs and heavier bullets pushing on the mag spring, the mag may not be pushing the bullets up fast enough to get ahead of the slide...but if someone has tried this with these wide meplat 10mm and it still failed to feed on weak hand shots, I won't head this way.

https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-magazine-spring/


Ok, here's the report from today's reliability testing. There's good and bad news, and George was spot on about problems when grip is less this ideal.

Weak hand, loose grip yielded good results until the mag was down to 9 rounds. Then this happened twice in a row:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

A solid two handed grip returned the gun to reliable function.

So, I'm admitting defeat. Looks like I'll carry the .44 SBH in Alaska. I'm kinda excited about training some more with that gun.

Thanks for all the help, dudes.

03RN
03-16-2019, 10:41 AM
I saw you're using Lehigh bullets now but I just wanted to mention rimrock bullets. Their 200 grain bullet has a little smaller metplate and is used by Buffalo Bore.

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-40-10mm-200-gr-tc-the-outdoorsman-per-700.html


Plus they're a little cheaper at $70/700. Free shipping over $100 and they'll fit 3 boxes in a flat rate box.

Clusterfrack
03-16-2019, 10:48 AM
Has anyone tried these wide meplats with extra power mag springs? 460 rowland highly recommends extra power / heavy mag springs for proper cycling in glocks. The math seems right for the heavier bullets - faster slide due to recoil and extra power recoil springs and heavier bullets pushing on the mag spring, the mag may not be pushing the bullets up fast enough to get ahead of the slide...but if someone has tried this with these wide meplat 10mm and it still failed to feed on weak hand shots, I won't head this way.

https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-magazine-spring/

That's very interesting, and looks like it's worth a try.

Here's a link to the post about my Lehigh XP load:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27394-Lehigh-has-changed-my-idea-of-a-field-pistol&p=656227&viewfull=1#post656227

mtboz
03-19-2019, 06:27 AM
I'll take a play with some of those Lehigh loads! Just loaded some of their 115's for the 9mm.

Would like to pick your brain a bit more on these 200 gr HC's as i have a batch from MBW in the works - before you swapped your spring out, did you have reliability issues at all load power levels (eg, maybe at 8grains @ 1100fps) or just at max load power? Also, did you try the weak hand / one hand reliability test with the OEM spring? I'm wondering if an OEM recoil spring with OEM mag springs (eg, forward speed of slide is mfr tuned to the upward speed of the mag spring) on a slightly lighter load would work.

Clusterfrack
03-19-2019, 01:43 PM
mtboz, good questions. I had FTFs with anything above .40 cal power factor, even with regular FMJ bullets. Especially WHO. The OEM RSA is very undersprung.

I didn’t try lighter hardcast loads.

The .460 mag spring is on its way, and when I get a chance I’ll test it with my hardcast bearkiller loads.

Clusterfrack
03-29-2019, 03:42 PM
Update on this project:
I installed the Rowland heavy mag spring (https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-magazine-spring/).

I was only able to get 14 rounds into a mag, and that would load only with the slide open. This probably means this is a 13+1 setup.
I fired about 100 rounds of 10mm ranging from .40 wimpy loads to full power 10mm with no issues. Wow, this gun is really shootable! I'm always impressed by how well the large frame Glocks work.

Then I loaded up some of my 200gr hardcast bearkillers. These fed well, even though the bullet was notched as it hit the ramp. That is an improvement, and is encouraging. But, after 16 rounds, the magazine started dropping free on every shot. Inspection revealed that the mag release had gouged the ledge on the magazine, preventing solid retention of the mag. Surprisingly to me this is a known issue in G20s firing .460 Rowland, and apparently can be fixed using Rowland mag shims (https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-rowland-glock-21-magazine-shim-set/), which are now on order.

More to come...

mtboz
04-04-2019, 05:20 PM
Clusterfrack - assume you are still using the 800x loads - how is your accuracy? I'm using an almost identical bullet from Montana Bulletworks (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-noe-200gr-wfn-gc/), and getting pretty ugly groups with 8.3gr Longshot @1232fps with 1.230 OAL. These loads are also hitting 3-4 inches lower at 15 yards than range ammo. Tests in both OEM and Storm Lake custom barrel show that I'm also having the feeding issues you described in your G20, so it appears that the only solution to this is to amp up the mag spring *or* go with a bullet that has more of a taper (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/3840-10mm-40-lbt-200gr-lfn-gc/). HSM 200 grain "Bear Load" factory ammo feeds without issue, and it looks like HSM and Buffalo Bore use a tapered bullet similar to the lfn-gc. Have you tried your wide flat bearloads in a different 10mm platform by chance?

Anyone else getting marginal accuracy with longshot?

Clusterfrack
04-05-2019, 10:58 AM
mtboz, I haven't tested accuracy other than consistently hitting a 10" plate at 25 yds. I'll shoot some groups today when I test the Beartooth 200 with a new mag and the 460R mag spring and shims.

I still think the best load may be the Lehigh XP 140. I get 1400 fps with 10.5gr 800X, and I had no feed or mag issues.

I don't have any other 10mm guns, and don't plan to. There isn't another brand of 10mm I would trust in a self-defense situation against a bear. If the G20 isn't reliable, I'll be carrying a .44 Mag SBH loaded with Buffalo Bore 340gr hard cast (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20781-Alaska-Journal/page30&p=624430#post624430)at 1360fps (!) in a HPG chest rig, and my 9mm EDC.

More to come after testing today.

Clusterfrack
04-05-2019, 04:46 PM
SUCCESS!

Zero malfunctions, and good groups with a wide variety of loads, including heavy 200 gr hard cast Beartooth.

The keys are: 24# RSA and 460R mag spring and mag shims.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190405/4a79bfc690419c110be1faf12078d2fa.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190405/4ba8d4ed830b5278bf57e77fea6ea565.jpg

Clusterfrack
04-05-2019, 07:28 PM
Paging GJM and cheby...

I'm pretty excited that the G20 is good to go. Ordering a JMCK AIWB 2.5 for it.

cheby
04-05-2019, 08:06 PM
Paging GJM and cheby...

I'm pretty excited that the G20 is good to go. Ordering a JMCK AIWB 2.5 for it.
Awesome! Could you please bring the magazine tomorrow?

GJM
04-05-2019, 08:51 PM
SUCCESS!


The keys are: 24# RSA and 460R mag spring and mag shims.

Sounds pretty adventuresome for a bear gun! ;)

Clusterfrack
04-05-2019, 10:12 PM
Sounds pretty adventuresome for a bear gun! ;)

It is a lot of mods. But, not fire control mods at least. The mag shims prevent the mag from dropping free, but that's all I've found on the downside so far.

It's not an out-of-the box solution like your HK USP .45 or my SBH .44. But on the other hand, it's still a Glock.

Lester Polfus
04-05-2019, 11:09 PM
How many of the heavy Beartooth loads have you put through it?

Clusterfrack
04-05-2019, 11:56 PM
How many of the heavy Beartooth loads have you put through it?

50. Plus 75 Lehigh XP 140 and 50 XTP 180 all at thermonuclear power.

cheby
04-06-2019, 12:18 AM
Well I am not sure if 50rds is enough. I can shoot that ammo as much as 100 rds and still have a malfunction after that. The other stuff you shot always worked in my g20 even without the 24# recoil spring.

GJM
04-06-2019, 07:23 AM
In my experience, the XTP always worked in our numerous 20/29 pistols. I haven’t shot significant amounts of Lehigh though the Glock 10’s, but all I tried ran fine. That wasn’t surprising because the Lehigh has run in every pistol of 9/40/45/10 that I have tried.

Clusterfrack
04-06-2019, 08:22 AM
Well I am not sure if 50rds is enough. I can shoot that ammo as much as 100 rds and still have a malfunction after that. The other stuff you shot always worked in my g20 even without the 24# recoil spring.

I agree. I've got some loading to do.

I haven't decided whether Lehigh or hard cast will be my bear load.

I'm encouraged though. Thanks to mtboz, we have an explanation for why the heavy lead loads cause FTFs, and a solution that appears to work: heavy mag springs. The magazine falling out issue was a big surprise to me, and got me to the "fuck this gun" point. Fortunately, the 460 Rowland folks know about that too, and have a solution: shims.

GJM
04-06-2019, 08:42 PM
I agree. I've got some loading to do.

I haven't decided whether Lehigh or hard cast will be my bear load.

I'm encouraged though. Thanks to mtboz, we have an explanation for why the heavy lead loads cause FTFs, and a solution that appears to work: heavy mag springs. The magazine falling out issue was a big surprise to me, and got me to the "fuck this gun" point. Fortunately, the 460 Rowland folks know about that too, and have a solution: shims.

You could probably just buy a few boxes of Underwood Lehigh penetrators and be good to go with OEM parts. If you really want to launch wide meplat hard cast, a Smith .44 is a great choice.

Clusterfrack
04-07-2019, 10:06 AM
You could probably just buy a few boxes of Underwood Lehigh penetrators and be good to go with OEM parts. If you really want to launch wide meplat hard cast, a Smith .44 is a great choice.

A few thoughts:

I have some Underwood Lehigh XP 140gr (1400 fps), and they work well--with a 24# recoil spring. I do think this is a very good option.

But for me, the holy grail is a fast, heavy, wide meplat hard-cast that works reliably in a Glock. I don't have anywhere near the up-close experience with bears that you do, so this is probably a somewhat irrational preference based on a few terrifying encounters.

I'm trying for a 10mm grizzly defense load that will work for a head shot, and hopefully do some vital or shoulder joint damage if I get a body shot. The 200 gr Beartooth at 1200 fps looks good so far, with the fairly conservative mods I've made to my gun. I'll be testing further to make sure it's good to go.

If it's head-shot only, I'd rather carry a 9mm with XP.

I'll pass on the Smith. The complex clockwork of S&W revolvers seems like a poor choice for a gun that's going to get full of dust or sandy, wet and muddy from riding quads or crawling around shooting rifles. And, I have a distrust of everything made by S&W, and just wouldn't feel good facing down a big boar grizzly with one in my hands.

I've got a lot of rounds through my Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley 3.75", and was able to shoot some respectable Gabe White drills with it (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22600-Gabe-White-Standards&p=602263&viewfull=1#post602263). I can shoot it pretty well SHO too. I carried it on my last Alaska trip and felt just fine. But I'll be even happier carrying my G20!

Clusterfrack
04-10-2019, 05:10 PM
50 more test rounds of 200 hard cast using the 460R mag mods. No problems. Good groups. Not much fun to shoot.

I also tested very heavy loads using 180 Hornady HAP, a JHP with similar profile to XTP. This load is 10.0gr of 800X at 1300fps. Very stout! Interestingly, I had FTF malfunctions with a regular magazine, just like with the hard cast bullets. When I used the mag with the heavy mag spring and shims, I shot 54 rounds without issue.

This suggests that the FTF issues are mag spring related, not bullet profile related. Paging GJM and cheby.

cheby
04-10-2019, 06:16 PM
This suggests that the FTF issues are mag spring related, not bullet profile related. Paging GJM and cheby.

I think this is correct. The Double Tap 200gr hardcast always worked in my G20 in stock configuration but it is only 1050 fps. Everything else was not reliable above 1200 fps (180-200gr bullet). I am guessing the slide moves so fast with the hot load that the next round is not ready with the stock magazine spring... That makes me think that the weaker recoil spring would actually make it more reliable???

Clusterfrack
04-10-2019, 08:20 PM
cheby, I was thinking that as well. I do think the 24# recoil spring reduces felt recoil and muzzle flip a bit, and is probably nicer to the gun. With the frame flex issue causing mag drops (need 460R shims to prevent), I plan to continue to use the 24# recoil spring. It works well even for very mild loads.

I just ordered 60 rounds of Federal HST 200gr (https://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-hst/p10hst1s) at 1130fps, for a standard defense load that should do well against animals if necessary. That hopefully shouldn't require a special mag spring or shims.

I have a HPG Kit bag for backcountry carry. For other use, a JMCK AIWB 2.5 is on order.

Now, I'll load up some more of my hard cast Bearkiller loads and call this project complete.

Clusterfrack
04-20-2019, 06:38 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190420/13317828b5a71be41aeae7c2e1dfe847.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190420/1a56e727b1f4238b3d4eaed64b42ba5a.jpg

GJM
04-20-2019, 06:57 PM
While it is possible you have found the cure, my experience over many 20/29 pistols and many other platforms, is that wide meat hard cast loads are not reliable in service pistols. Sometimes I have learned that in a few magazines, and sometimes that realization only came after believing my hard cast load was reliable and carrying it a few months.

GJM
04-20-2019, 06:57 PM
Meplat not meat!

Clusterfrack
04-20-2019, 07:03 PM
... wide meat...

:D

Clusterfrack
04-20-2019, 07:09 PM
While it is possible you have found the cure, my experience over many 20/29 pistols and many other platforms, is that wide meat hard cast loads are not reliable in service pistols. Sometimes I have learned that in a few magazines, and sometimes that realization only came after believing my hard cast load was reliable and carrying it a few months.

I'm still a little worried about that too. I'll run at least a few more mags before carrying it for sure.

It's encouraging that the FTF malfunctions and dented bullets do not seem to occur with the 460R extra power mag springs. As well, I can reproduce the same malfunctions with very heavy XTP and HAP loads. So, it's tempting to conclude that the standard magazine spring can't keep up with the slide velocity of heavy loads.

Another experiment would be to try low power wide meplat loads with standard springs.

mmc45414
04-21-2019, 08:47 AM
If nothing else, those rounds sure look awesome :)

03RN
04-28-2019, 08:18 AM
I have a HPG Kit bag for backcountry carry. For other use, a JMCK AIWB 2.5 is on order.

Now, I'll load up some more of my hard cast Bearkiller loads and call this project complete.

To be fair, if you're using a hpg bag or carrying AIWB then you shouldn't be to concerned with dust putting a Smith down.

Even when open carrying a Smith I've spend days in rain, a few submerges, sleeping under the stars, working on beaches where sand somehow found its way into my exposed, open holster, etc I haven't had a problem.

Totally different world then my EDC sitting aiwb, or in a zipped up chest rig so you would be fine.

If you want the auto for the commonality, high capacity, etc then I think those are valid enough reason. The clockwork inside smiths have proved to be rugged enough for defensive use.

Thy.Will.Be.Done
04-28-2019, 08:54 AM
50 more test rounds of 200 hard cast using the 460R mag mods. No problems. Good groups. Not much fun to shoot.

I also tested very heavy loads using 180 Hornady HAP, a JHP with similar profile to XTP. This load is 10.0gr of 800X at 1300fps. Very stout! Interestingly, I had FTF malfunctions with a regular magazine, just like with the hard cast bullets. When I used the mag with the heavy mag spring and shims, I shot 54 rounds without issue.

This suggests that the FTF issues are mag spring related, not bullet profile related. Paging GJM and cheby.

To quote 'The Glocksmith' T.R. Graham... "The magazine is the heart of any semiautomatic pistol, without a good magazine... you've got an expensive single-shot". Should be the first place to look at with any problematic gun, though this may be obvious to some here.

Clusterfrack
04-30-2019, 03:01 PM
Results of more testing:

42 more trouble-free rounds of Beartooth 200gr lead hard cast over 9.0gr 800X, using 460 Rowland mag spring (https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-magazine-spring/) and shims (https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-rowland-glock-21-magazine-shim-set/). These loads chronoed at 1189fps (sd=6; n=14).

Below is a 10 round 20yd group. The two sub-groups are due to me re-adjusting my grip from the very stout recoil. In any case, this is a very accurate load.
37697

I also tested the new Federal HST 200gr HST (https://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-hst/p10hst1s) (P10HST1S) in standard mags. As expected, they fed flawlessly, including SHO and WHO with a purposely weak grip. Chrono: 1078fps (sd=6; n=16). It's great to see Federal producing a full power 200gr 10mm load, instead of the 900fps 180gr loads of the past. Recoil of the P10HST1S in my G20 was comparable to a .40 cal Glock--heavier than a 9mm, but nowhere close to the recoil from my nuclear hard cast loads.

I will be carrying these loads in Alaska soon. Intel on the ground is that this will be an active bear year. I hope we can observe these beautiful creatures safely at a distance, and avoid trouble.

CTX44
06-01-2019, 11:30 AM
Been reading this post with interest; indeed it inspired me to join the forum to share my 2 cents. I've have a lot of run ins with grizzlies over the years in Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana, but to be clear, unlike many of my friends in Alaska, I've never shot a grizzly (though I've killed plenty of black bears).

The last run in I had was with a 600 lb interior grizzly off the Denali Highway. Strong wind, blowing directly toward me, dense brush, and relatively quiet walking. Spray would have been useless...wind was coming off a glacier at maybe 20 mph. Bear and I were coming from opposite directions on the same trail and when he appeared he was about 40 yards away.

On that day, and during all the run ins I've had, I was carrying a 44 magnum (that day it was a cut-down Super Red Hawk) loaded with some manner of 300gr hardcast loads.

All the other grizzlies I've run into took off running, or hung around maybe a minute to collect their cubs, and then disappeared. This encounter lasted maybe ten minutes, which was a lot of time to keep my butt clenched.

It was abundantly clear that with my hard kicking 44 mag, I was only going to get one shot. Maybe a second shot, as the bear was chewing on my foot. I felt confident in my shooting ability...I'd put those loads into an inch at 25 yards, many, many times. But I was not confident that I would be able to hit a running bear in the brainpan or neck with my first shot. Unfortunately the bear got a vote on that.

After that, I switched to a Glock 20. But even after shooting hot 10mm loads against my shot timer, I wasn't satisfied. My split times still felt a lot slower than what I felt I needed.

So I switched again, to the same 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet at 950 or 1000 fps. I could have downloaded my 10mm, but I decided to hit the easy button and just run those bullets out of my G22. Underwood and Buffalo Bore both have a 40 SW loading like this.

My belief is that 10mm bullets at 950-1000 fps will still penetrate several feet of bear, and still get into the skullbox with similar reliability.

But measured against a shot timer, I can get hits twice as fast with those bullets at 950 fps vs 1200 fps. And four times as fast as I could get hits with a 300gr-325gr 44 mag or 454 load.

Anyway, that's where I ended up. Thanks for the great info in this thread.

03RN
06-02-2019, 09:13 AM
Been reading this post with interest; indeed it inspired me to join the forum to share my 2 cents. I've have a lot of run ins with grizzlies over the years in Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana, but to be clear, unlike many of my friends in Alaska, I've never shot a grizzly (though I've killed plenty of black bears).

The last run in I had was with a 600 lb interior grizzly off the Denali Highway. Strong wind, blowing directly toward me, dense brush, and relatively quiet walking. Spray would have been useless...wind was coming off a glacier at maybe 20 mph. Bear and I were coming from opposite directions on the same trail and when he appeared he was about 40 yards away.

On that day, and during all the run ins I've had, I was carrying a 44 magnum (that day it was a cut-down Super Red Hawk) loaded with some manner of 300gr hardcast loads.

All the other grizzlies I've run into took off running, or hung around maybe a minute to collect their cubs, and then disappeared. This encounter lasted maybe ten minutes, which was a lot of time to keep my butt clenched.

It was abundantly clear that with my hard kicking 44 mag, I was only going to get one shot. Maybe a second shot, as the bear was chewing on my foot. I felt confident in my shooting ability...I'd put those loads into an inch at 25 yards, many, many times. But I was not confident that I would be able to hit a running bear in the brainpan or neck with my first shot. Unfortunately the bear got a vote on that.

After that, I switched to a Glock 20. But even after shooting hot 10mm loads against my shot timer, I wasn't satisfied. My split times still felt a lot slower than what I felt I needed.

So I switched again, to the same 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet at 950 or 1000 fps. I could have downloaded my 10mm, but I decided to hit the easy button and just run those bullets out of my G22. Underwood and Buffalo Bore both have a 40 SW loading like this.

My belief is that 10mm bullets at 950-1000 fps will still penetrate several feet of bear, and still get into the skullbox with similar reliability.

But measured against a shot timer, I can get hits twice as fast with those bullets at 950 fps vs 1200 fps. And four times as fast as I could get hits with a 300gr-325gr 44 mag or 454 load.

Anyway, that's where I ended up. Thanks for the great info in this thread.

I may not be following. Did you find your first shot was significantly slower with the first shot from a revolver?

Clusterfrack
06-02-2019, 11:02 AM
Thanks for posting. If you have time, can you describe your grizzly encounter in more detail?

Your reasoning about the trade-offs between recoil and terminal ballistics makes sense, and it's great that you have measured your performance with the different options. What were your splits with the different loads?

I considered carrying 9mm with Lehigh XP because of the advantage in capacity and shootability. However, because grizzlies are fucking terrifying I decided to go with the heavy, fast 10mm load that could (in theory) be effective for a shoulder hit if I missed a head shot.


Been reading this post with interest; indeed it inspired me to join the forum to share my 2 cents. I've have a lot of run ins with grizzlies over the years in Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana, but to be clear, unlike many of my friends in Alaska, I've never shot a grizzly (though I've killed plenty of black bears).

The last run in I had was with a 600 lb interior grizzly off the Denali Highway. Strong wind, blowing directly toward me, dense brush, and relatively quiet walking. Spray would have been useless...wind was coming off a glacier at maybe 20 mph. Bear and I were coming from opposite directions on the same trail and when he appeared he was about 40 yards away.

On that day, and during all the run ins I've had, I was carrying a 44 magnum (that day it was a cut-down Super Red Hawk) loaded with some manner of 300gr hardcast loads.

All the other grizzlies I've run into took off running, or hung around maybe a minute to collect their cubs, and then disappeared. This encounter lasted maybe ten minutes, which was a lot of time to keep my butt clenched.

It was abundantly clear that with my hard kicking 44 mag, I was only going to get one shot. Maybe a second shot, as the bear was chewing on my foot. I felt confident in my shooting ability...I'd put those loads into an inch at 25 yards, many, many times. But I was not confident that I would be able to hit a running bear in the brainpan or neck with my first shot. Unfortunately the bear got a vote on that.

After that, I switched to a Glock 20. But even after shooting hot 10mm loads against my shot timer, I wasn't satisfied. My split times still felt a lot slower than what I felt I needed.

So I switched again, to the same 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet at 950 or 1000 fps. I could have downloaded my 10mm, but I decided to hit the easy button and just run those bullets out of my G22. Underwood and Buffalo Bore both have a 40 SW loading like this.

My belief is that 10mm bullets at 950-1000 fps will still penetrate several feet of bear, and still get into the skullbox with similar reliability.

But measured against a shot timer, I can get hits twice as fast with those bullets at 950 fps vs 1200 fps. And four times as fast as I could get hits with a 300gr-325gr 44 mag or 454 load.

Anyway, that's where I ended up. Thanks for the great info in this thread.

5pins
06-02-2019, 01:36 PM
CTX44 brings up a good point. People tend to think that a bullet needs to be pushed as fast a possible in order to get as much penetration as they can. In doing so they sacrifice reliability and controllability.

BTW welcome to the forum.

GJM
06-02-2019, 02:38 PM
A few thoughts.

1) I carried Underwood .40 for most of a summer in AK, for similar reasoning, until I realized the load was not reliable in my OEM or KKM barrels when shot from compromised positions with partially filled magazines.

2) if a body shot dissuades a bear, great, but I wouldn’t count on breaking a bear down with shoulder shots with a semi auto 10/40, like you would with a heavy rifle or Brenneke slugs. The brain is the only high probability quick way to incapacitate a bear with a service pistol.

3) I value reliability over bullet performance, and the Lehigh penetrator is the sweet spot for my use in a service pistol. I carry hard cast in my revolvers.

Clusterfrack
06-02-2019, 02:56 PM
A few thoughts.

1) I carried Underwood .40 for most of a summer in AK, for similar reasoning, until I realized the load was not reliable in my OEM or KKM barrels when shot from compromised positions with partially filled magazines.

2) if a body shot dissuades a bear, great, but I wouldn’t count on breaking a bear down with shoulder shots with a semi auto 10/40, like you would with a heavy rifle or Brenneke slugs. The brain is the only high probability quick way to incapacitate a bear with a service pistol.

3) I value reliability over bullet performance, and the Lehigh penetrator is the sweet spot for my use in a service pistol. I carry hard cast in my revolvers.

I completely agree about reliability. I've done a decent amount of testing, and I'm confident that I've got a reliable G20 hardcast load. But I sure wouldn't carry anything that I hadn't personally tested.

What happened in your .40? Was it bullet profile or ?

My plan is not to shoot at a bear at all, but if that fails, I know I'll be aiming hard at the brain. But would you say that it is a lower but reasonable probability that a heavy wide meplat handgun bullet (.44 or 10mm) strike to the shoulder could slow/stop a bear? That's really the only reason I can see to carry anything other than a 9mm with Lehigh.

Another question: do you carry your bear defense load when you return to civilization, or do you swap in a more conventional defense load?

CTX44
06-02-2019, 03:08 PM
Thanks for posting. If you have time, can you describe your grizzly encounter in more detail?

Your reasoning about the trade-offs between recoil and terminal ballistics makes sense, and it's great that you have measured your performance with the different options. What were your splits with the different loads?

I considered carrying 9mm with Lehigh XP because of the advantage in capacity and shootability. However, because grizzlies are fucking terrifying I decided to go with the heavy, fast 10mm load that could (in theory) be effective for a shoulder hit if I missed a head shot.

On the encounter: Bear and I were coming down a narrow stream coming off a glacier, but on opposite sides. Because of the brush and terrain and deeply cut bank, visibility was limited. Very strong wind coming off glacier and down stream. I was walking upstream, bear was coming down stream. Maybe 20mph wind directly into my face. Thankfully I had stopped to drink some water, have deep thoughts, some shit like that. I was standing against a rock wall, maybe a bit out of the sun, and boom there's a massive burly male grizz, strutting down the stream like a linebacker. I've seen tons of grizz in the wild; for an interior bear this guy was old and big. Just from body language, he gave no fucks.

I realize I am probably inside, or maybe at the edge of, his "oh shit what's that I'm charging" zone. I consider moving, slowly stepping forward, but he is so goddamn close that even that seems like a massive roll of the dice. It's not like running into a bear at a salmon stream where they aren't really that territorial.

I have a 5" (cutdown) super red hawk in a chest harness with 300 hardcast something or other. I shoot this gun ALOT, both with full power loads, but also doing PPC type drills with reduced loads, dumping 6 rounds into an index cards at 10 yards, etc. I feel very comfortable with it, up close, out long, high speed, low speed, whatever.

It is immediately apparent that this gun is a peashooter. My caveman brain is screaming "long gun long gun long gun," 375, 338 mag, anything.

I stay frozen. He continues down the stream toward me. To make a long story short, I basically reverse stalked him. Every time his head went behind a bush, I moved to a better position of cover/shadow. Puckering continues because as he gets closer to me (like 10-15 yards at one point), he smells something interesting in my direction (maybe a ground squirrel or something), and begins to meander around the stream bank. He does not smell me--the wind direction is strong and constant. So nothing good is really happening. There is no way to make myself known without risking getting charged.

I have my revolver out but it's pretty useless, I realize. I am unable to visualize any situation in which I have time for more than one shot with this 44 mag.

This bullshite goes on forever. There is something very interesting to this bear around this area of the stream bank, he keeps circling back and forth (it wasn't me, because later he smelled me and gave a little woof).

Finally he gets on past me, I follow him at a distance (100-200 yrs) to make sure I'm not going to run into him on my way back to my campsite, then he turns up the mountain going the other way.

With the benefit of hindsight, I still don't know if I'd done anything differently. If the bear had been a tentative looking female, I think I would have made myself known immediately? Maybe? But when you're 30 paces away, it's a hard call. This dude was the baddest mother on the mountain. And when he finally did smell me (when he was maybe 100 yards past me, and I'd started to relax, and the wind was finally blowing from me to him), he froze, whipped his head around to look directly at me (I don't think he could see me, he just sensed from the wind), and woofed. Then continued he continued to amble slowly down the stream.

Split times with my 44 mag and hot 300grainers...I dunno. Maybe measured in seconds? Hilariously slow.

Splits with the G22 and 200gr hardcast, from memory they were slower, but not that much slower than 9mm, maybe .25?

Splits with the hotter 200gr, again I can't quite remember but maybe .45-ish? That also might be an average in a long string. For me a lot of grip milking happens if I'm shooting long strings with my G20 and hot loads. I guess for my size and hand strength, a G22 with 200gr at 950 doesn't cause any real milking of the grip, my POI doesn't really change even in timed/rapid fire.

Long post, again, thanks for all the info. Just food for thought.

Also, the Underwood/BB 200gr hardcast is utterly reliable in both my G22s (Gen 3 and 4) and with a KKM 40 cal barrel. As boringly reliable as ball. However, the met plat is much smaller than the beartooths you are using. Guessing there's a pretty direct relationship there, wound channel vs good feeding.

My G20, like yours, always had *some* issue when I fed it very hot loads. It was perfectly reliable up to a point and then as stuff got hotter, reliability dropped off steeply.

Okay I'll sign off to avoid being the talkative FNG. Thanks again.

Clusterfrack
06-02-2019, 03:15 PM
Thanks for the detailed and helpful post, CTX44. I'm glad it worked out for you and for the bear. It sounds like you did the right things. And welcome to P-F. You seem like the kind of FNG we want around here.

5pins
06-02-2019, 03:36 PM
I have some Underwood hardcast rounds coming in tomorrow I plan to shoot in some clear gel, the 200gr .40 is one of them. I'm curious how it will do.

CTX44
06-02-2019, 06:41 PM
Man...I have only killed black bears. Pretty similar to deer. Some of my AK buddies have killed grizzlies but it was always from a distance, and the bears died without drama.

I don't think if you missed the braincase, that a hit to the shoulder, from the front, with any handgun, would stand any chance of slowing down a big grizzly. These animals are f-ing huge and seriously juiced up if they are charging you. But I'm just theorizing. I think the only thing that really slows them down is center mass hits with a medium bore rifle.

Maybe if with your pistol, you miss directly low but stay centerline and put one through the heart...that has obvious long term value, at least later in the fight. I think the common mental landmark is the nose if you're charged, then the neck if the animal is past you and you're still in the fight. I kill big feral pigs with neck shots all the time; even nicking the spine pancakes them for a second or two, then you can quickly follow up. This is true even with a 17hmr. Shouldn't be true, but I've done it several times. I think it's like getting hit in the jaw for us.

If I'm in the lower 48, but outside of grizzly country, I carry a 5 shot SW 44 mag with 240gr XTPs. Pretty much good for everything and I can take a shot on a game animal from pretty far out if I need to. Ie it's not just a defensive arm. Also I realize I am speaking heresy, but I have not seen hardcast pistol bullets on deer or hog sized animals do anything but pencil through and do (to my eyes) unimpressive damage. I use some kind of expanding bullet if I'm in deer/pig/mountain lion/small bear woods. Obviously, for grizzly, hardcast.

Again, the above are just my theories...reasonable people might differ.

GJM
06-02-2019, 09:15 PM
I completely agree about reliability. I've done a decent amount of testing, and I'm confident that I've got a reliable G20 hardcast load. But I sure wouldn't carry anything that I hadn't personally tested.

What happened in your .40? Was it bullet profile or ?

My plan is not to shoot at a bear at all, but if that fails, I know I'll be aiming hard at the brain. But would you say that it is a lower but reasonable probability that a heavy wide meplat handgun bullet (.44 or 10mm) strike to the shoulder could slow/stop a bear? That's really the only reason I can see to carry anything other than a 9mm with Lehigh.

Another question: do you carry your bear defense load when you return to civilization, or do you swap in a more conventional defense load?

If you study the long term statistics on bear encounters, handguns, even in service calibers, are actually a bit more effective than long guns in stopping bear attacks. On the face of it, that seems preposterous, given the difference in power between long guns and handguns. The reasons for this are, I believe, twofold. First, handguns are easier to maneuver and fire multiple shots with in a FUT, and bears don’t like to be shot. If you had to kill a bear to stop the attack, the statistics would be much different, and the bears would be way out on top.

All of this is for defending yourself and doesn’t contemplate hunting a bear with a handgun, where of course you want the heaviest possible bullet. My personal strategy is to do everything possible to defuse the situation. With a handgun, if that is not successful, and I have time, I am going to fire a warning shot. If that works, that is your most effective handgun round ever. If that doesn’t work, and I have time, I am going to shoot the bear somewhere in the body. The reason is that bears don’t like being shot, and there is a reasonable chance that a shot anywhere painful will cause the bear to discontinue the attack. If none of that works, I am shooting for the brain, until the attack ends or I can’t shoot anymore. The best part of all of this is the marksmanship challenge gets progressively easier as the attack progresses.

One of the things I figured out early on as a pilot, and later as a pilot in Alaska, is the ideal way to learn, is from the mistakes of other people. I literally spent fifteen years trying to make wide meplat bullets feed in semi auto service pistols. Sometimes I figured out they wouldn’t work in hours, sometimes in days, and at other times it took me a whole season to learn the lesson. I have yet to find a single wide meplat hard cast load that would work to my reliability standard. As I have reported over the years, I tried so many Glock 20/29 combinations of barrels and recoil springs that I lost track, the Glock 22, the S&W 3rd Gen 10mm pistols, none of which worked. The HK USP FS and HK45C are the only pistols that have met my heavier load reliability, and even still I am launching Underwood Lehigh because I value reliability first. It is kind of hard to go warning shot, body shot, and brain shot when you have a stoppage.

CTX44
06-02-2019, 10:51 PM
Very informative post. I haven't had that many encounters with grizzlies, maybe around two dozen, i.e. not much compared to folks who live in Alaska. So far never had to use spray or fire a shot, and I always have both spray and a pistol.

I will definitely try the 200gr underwood with a half loaded mag and a weak grip. I do not even remember remote signs of hiccuping, but I will definitely try it this week. I am crossing my fingers as I say this.

GJM: this is the 140gr Underwood/Lehigh load? Does it shoot lower than the heavier stuff?

GJM
06-02-2019, 11:00 PM
Very informative post. I haven't had that many encounters with grizzlies, maybe around two dozen, i.e. not much compared to folks who live in Alaska. So far never had to use spray or fire a shot, and I always have both spray and a pistol.

I will definitely try the 200gr underwood with a half loaded mag and a weak grip. I do not even remember remote signs of hiccuping, but I will definitely try it this week. I am crossing my fingers as I say this.

GJM: this is the 140gr Underwood/Lehigh load? Does it shoot lower than the heavier stuff?

I carry the Underwood 200 grain 45 Super load in my USP FS and HK45C:

https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/45-super-200-grain-xtreme-penetrator

However, I have shot the Lehigh xtreme bullet in so many different 9, 40, 10, and 45 pistols, and never had a stoppage, that I am confident that the combination of the FMJ bullet profile and moderate velocity of the Underwood loadings is conducive to reliability. It has been a while since I shot the 10mm Underwood Lehigh, and I don’t recall exact POI. yes, it was the 140 in 10mm.

Clusterfrack
06-02-2019, 11:05 PM
Thanks George. I appreciate all of your help and experience.

GLB
06-04-2019, 12:56 PM
Myself and a good friend have worked quite a bit loading the the 10mm in the Glock platform. We both have pushed it over 1200 FPS with the 200 grain bullet. What we have found is that 1100-1150 is the optimal FPS with the 200 grain bullet as far as full power reliability. We also tried different bullet in the 200 grain range while maintaining that 1100-1150 and reliability was good.

What we settled with was a 200 grain Montana Gold CMJ bullet loaded with Longshot powder in Starline brass. That bullet has a very hard jacket and it is of match quality. This load is accurate with 2” groups at 25 yards with 4 different G20s both gen 3 and gen 4s. We both have shot this load in the thousands to include shooting our duty quals which require some SHO other SHO and malfunction clearance drills. We both live in Alaska and carry the G20 with this load often.

CTX44
06-06-2019, 05:11 AM
Just as an update: GJM remembered having feeding issues with the Underwood 200gr hardcast. For me it had always seemed very reliable, but I also didn't remember intentionally trying to make the gun malfunction.

Just took my last few boxes and tried to make my G22 gen 4 jam with that ammo. I loaded only 5 in the mag to reduce spring pressure and shot one handed, as limp wristed as I could without the gun actually flying out of my hand. While limp wristing to the best of my ability, I held the gun sideways to the left, to the right...it ran like a top, no malfunctions or hiccups and it locked the slide back every time. I ran out of ammo before I could test my Gen 3 G22.

This stuff runs at 950fps through the factory barrel and 1010 fps through a KKM 5.5" barrel. A bit shy of GLB's 10mm numbers, but for me seems like a good compromise. About the same velocity as the old Skeeter Skelton load. I've got pretty average sized hands and I find the G22 is substantially more shootable in rapid fire than the G20; also easier to shoot one handed.

So...that's where I landed. I've still got my G20 (and various 44 mags and 45 colts and 454's), but for now sticking with the G22 and this 200gr hardcast.

Appreciate everyone's knowledge and experience.

Tannhauser
05-24-2022, 08:16 PM
I realize I am resurrecting an old post, but I found this thread incredibly informative and useful.

I recently entered into the 10mm world with a S&W M&P 10mm with a 4.6” barrel. I’ve been working up loads, and this thread popped up in my Google searches.

I was looking for information on loading heavy hardcast in 10mm, but what really jumped out at me was the failures documented by the author are almost exactly what sone M&P10mm owners are reporting when shooting Undereood or Buffalo Bore 200 and 220 hardcast - namely, failures yo feed and mags ones dropping free.

I’ve only been shooting 180 gr JHP handloads, and even with almost max charges of Blue Dot and I have no failures over a couple hundred rounds.

I replaced my factory recoil assembly with a 22# Wolff recoil spring almost immediately, because it seemed these lightweight pistols were under-sprung from the factory.

I think the users shooting stock recoil Springs, stock magazine Springs with heavy hardcast loads are experiencing problems due to slide velocity and frame flex.

GJM
05-24-2022, 10:12 PM
Another way of saying it, is owners of polymer 10mm pistols are having problems with heavy field loads in these pistols, because the manufacturers did not design and test these pistols with heavy loads. Tinkerers have attempted to improve function with heavier recoil springs, stronger mag springs, and other tweaks, but these are one off solutions.

A great thing about my experience with the HK USP FS pistols, is the guns run Super non hard cast ammo in stock configuration.

coldcase1984
09-26-2022, 10:13 AM
Bump for a great thread.

Clusterfrack
09-26-2022, 10:23 AM
Another way of saying it, is owners of polymer 10mm pistols are having problems with heavy field loads in these pistols, because the manufacturers did not design and test these pistols with heavy loads. Tinkerers have attempted to improve function with heavier recoil springs, stronger mag springs, and other tweaks, but these are one off solutions.

A great thing about my experience with the HK USP FS pistols, is the guns run Super non hard cast ammo in stock configuration.

Are you calling me a tinkerer? Those are fighting words where I come from ;).

The Glock 20 mods are minimal: Recoil spring (https://www.glockmeister.com/product/ismi-extra-power-recoil-spring-24-pound#product_detail), guide rod (https://www.glockmeister.com/product/glockmeister-captured-stainless-steel-rod), mag spring (https://www.460rowland.com/shop/extras/460-rowland-glock-extra-power-mag-spring/), and two steel shims (https://www.460rowland.com/shop/accessories/glock-21-magazine-shim-set/) on the mag body. Is that tinkering? Maybe.

GJM
09-26-2022, 10:28 AM
Are you calling me a tinkerer? Those are fighting words where I come from ;).

The Glock 20 mods are minimal: Recoil spring, guide rod, mag spring (https://www.460rowland.com/shop/extras/460-rowland-glock-extra-power-mag-spring/), and two steel shims (https://www.460rowland.com/shop/accessories/glock-21-magazine-shim-set/) on the mag body. Is that tinkering? Maybe.

How about enthusiast instead of tinkerer!

Clusterfrack
09-26-2022, 10:29 AM
How about enthusiast instead of tinkerer!

We can hang out.

Clusterfrack
09-26-2022, 10:35 AM
Because heavy 10mm loads typically use heavy (200,220gr) hard cast wide meplat bullets, it's understandable that we would blame the bullets for failure to feed malfunctions. I sure did, until I reproduced the problems with very heavy loads using XTP 180gr (1300 fps). I had FTFs and mags dropping free, and was _this_ close to selling my G20.4 until I stumbled across 460 Rowland and their spring and mag mods.


I realize I am resurrecting an old post, but I found this thread incredibly informative and useful.

I recently entered into the 10mm world with a S&W M&P 10mm with a 4.6” barrel. I’ve been working up loads, and this thread popped up in my Google searches.

I was looking for information on loading heavy hardcast in 10mm, but what really jumped out at me was the failures documented by the author are almost exactly what sone M&P10mm owners are reporting when shooting Undereood or Buffalo Bore 200 and 220 hardcast - namely, failures yo feed and mags ones dropping free.

I’ve only been shooting 180 gr JHP handloads, and even with almost max charges of Blue Dot and I have no failures over a couple hundred rounds.

I replaced my factory recoil assembly with a 22# Wolff recoil spring almost immediately, because it seemed these lightweight pistols were under-sprung from the factory.

I think the users shooting stock recoil Springs, stock magazine Springs with heavy hardcast loads are experiencing problems due to slide velocity and frame flex.

JCL
09-26-2022, 11:56 AM
….and was _this_ close to selling my G20.4 until I stumbled across 460 Rowland and their spring and mag mods.
….and was _this_ close to picking up an unwanted G20 on a great deal. I was circling that thing like a vulture as Clusterfrack’s frustration mounted. I’m delighted that my friend got it sorted though, and mine has run like a top right out of the box on the sporty end of the load spectrum with those mods performed.

Tannhauser
09-28-2022, 09:17 AM
Because heavy 10mm loads typically use heavy (200,220gr) hard cast wide meplat bullets, it's understandable that we would blame the bullets for failure to feed malfunctions. I sure did, until I reproduced the problems with very heavy loads using XTP 180gr (1300 fps). I had FTFs and mags dropping free, and was _this_ close to selling my G20.4 until I stumbled across 460 Rowland and their spring and mag mods.

Interesting.

When I purchased my M&P 10mm, I already had Wolff recoil springs in heavier than factory weights on the way. I've settled on a 22 lb spring that gives me reliable function with full power 180 gr handloads and 200 gr Underwood hardcast.

My 180 XTPs are running 1250 fps out of a 4.6" barrel, and that's with the Hornady book max load of Blue Dot powder. Not quite as hot as your 1300 fps loads. Eventually I want to work up a handload with a large meplat 200 gr hardcast bullet. But components are difficult to find and expensive, so I settled for an XTP handload and half a dozen boxes of Underwood hardcast.

Clusterfrack
01-10-2024, 08:18 PM
Cross-posting this here:

The results from Cutting Edge copper solid 190gr (https://cuttingedgebullets.com/40-190gr-handgun-solid) lubed with Lee liquid Alox (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101020682) are encouraging. TLDR: no more low velocity fliers. My theory is that the lubricant prevents galling or wear products from causing transient increases in barrel friction. An added bonus to using the lacquer-like lubricant it likely makes the loaded rounds more waterproof (I also use primer sealant).

(Use load data at your own risk. Work up to any load carefully.)
8.6g 800-X (slightly compressed load)
CCI LPM primers (based on previous tests, I expect similar velocity from non-magnum primers)
Starline brass
Bullets seated so the last ring is just visible above the rim. COL: 1.240"
Average: 1158fps (sd 11)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240111/13baae42d1df4c7906a37b5ca4fc065e.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240111/00850163665d31dcf967b0dd47bc5747.jpg

The bullets are highly uniform in dimension. Every one I measured was identical to 0.0001".

The front ring measures 0.4005"
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240111/855d384ac5aea4d6d2c600854dc64fb3.jpg

The rest of the bullet rings measure 0.3990"
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240111/d8738019bb44a52b75b7731102f99e34.jpg