Mike Lamb of Stoic Ventures. Outed as not being a Recon Marine.

[Eli]

http://www.breachbangclear.com/mike-lamb-comes-clean/

I have no personal experience with Mr. Lamb, but have consumed a lot of the content he's put out. Damn...kinda sucks.

[octagon]

The sad thing is that his teaching,quality of instruction and techniques/tactics etc may be good stuff but are seriously tainted by a lie. I wouldn't not take a course from him before or now but I would look more critically at doing so and what he teaches or promotes now that he has benefited from a false background and disrespected those that earned their way as a Recon Marine.

This is why I don't put anyone no matter how experienced,knowledgeable,skilled or articulate they are on a pedestal. Too often information comes out that puts them or something they promote or teach in less than positive light. The same can be said of products as people. Buyer beware and do your homework.

[blues]

This seems to happen in every arena. I've come across it before with knife makers as well.

What's sad is that good info and training, or good knives for that matter, could stand on their own merit without resorting to "stolen valor".

One of my favorite sayings, attributed to Publilius Syrus translates as: "Trust, like the soul, once departed never returns."

[Suvorov]

I've been wanting to take his shotgun classes for years now.... Missed out on the Louis Awerbuck class and now this.

As others have said - the sad thing here is that his was by all accounts a good instructor who put out good information and now all of that is essentially lost or tainted because he chose early on to perpetrate a lie and try to live with it. Sad on many levels.......

[HCM]

I think the saddest thing about this is it was unnecessary as his actual background is quite respectable.

[45dotACP]

Shame. I always kinda figured that if you teach good stuff the your background doesn't mean fuck all.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[octagon]

I've been wanting to take his shotgun classes for years now.... Missed out on the Louis Awerbuck class and now this.

As others have said - the sad thing here is that his was by all accounts a good instructor who put out good information and now all of that is essentially lost or tainted because he chose early on to perpetrate a lie and try to live with it. Sad on many levels.......

Why not take his shotgun course? If it is because of principle for him lying I can understand and respect that. His training should be the same. Since his experience or previously believed experience changed than looking more critically at what he teaches is wise but it doesn't automatically invalidate everything. Gabe Suarez and James Yeager are 2 instructors with less than stellar reputations,actions and public comments. I doubt I would take a course they are teaching. However that doesn't mean I ignore everything they teach or suggest based on who they are. It just means that I look much more critically at everything they say or promote very skeptically before deciding to try it or disregard it. That is just my opinion and how I look at things.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A minor issue - if you in an ambiguous shooting and go to trial, the statements of your instructors might come up. If they are disreputable, that might be bad. Also, good instructors might testify that you acted correctly. If an instructor has such a flaw, they wouldn't be that useful in your defense.

Just something to think about. I know training as come up in some cases.

[shane45]

If you have to own up to something, I like the way he approached it, head on, and chin out.

[rob_s]

Why not take his shotgun course?

I would say that mostly because there's no reason to. Does he have some secret sauce or teach something that nobody else does?

No?

Then why not take the class from someone that hasn't lied about their background?

[Totem Polar]

If you have to own up to something, I like the way he approached it, head on, and chin out.

^^^ after 2 decades, yes? I dunno, this sort of thing is pretty hard to get past. In my world, it would be like someone claiming that they had a terminal degree in music performance, but didn't. The fact that they might be an absolutely killer player--better even than many with the degree--would have no bearing on them getting canned from teaching for resume fraud.

I have no dog in this hunt. But I will observe, from my seat in the armchair, that what makes this sort of thing so weird and strangely inevitable is the rise of contracting, especially in 3-letter context. The sexy resume comes from association with the proven SOF organizations (just ask the NRA carry guard), but more and more people have legit experience outside of the famous units. One of my favorite instructors is a serious badass who's been shot and stabbed and done plenty of legit things to bad people in service to this nation, but he's never been other than a civilian, despite what some on the internet (not him) mistakenly state.

Point being, sometimes this sort of resume fraud originates from outside the individual: instructor is good, becomes known, and someone in social media mistakenly tags them with an SOF background, and it runs away from there. Is there a difference between not correcting every write up on the internet, and claiming false creds yourself? It would be easy to let one article slide, then another, then the years go by and the camel is fully in the tent having tea, and the lie becomes part of one's own talking points, and then credibility is totally hosed.

Not saying that this is what happened here, but I'd be stunned if more of this sort of thing doesn't crop up in the future, because the wheels can be set in motion so easily.

Just another internet observation, I suppose. Opinions may vary.

[LOKNLOD]

I think the class is moot as he says he's going to shut down the company, in his statement.

Mike was the co-instructor (with Costa) at the Magpul Carbine class I took way back when... seemed like a good dude and had good input during the class.

Shame, but at the same time it's is own doing so it's tough to be overly upset about it. Glad he owned up, but it's a bit late...

[karmapolice]

Not surprised at all but I'm not surprised by much within this industry or the world in general. People lie for all sorts of reasons but him acting like he is coming clean is another lie. Dude got called out after 20 years of keeping the lie alive, which is the only reason he came "clean" is because he was ousted.

I never trained with him and don't have any personal hate or anything for him, but I don't feel sorry for him either. You background is mostly irrelevant if you are teaching people a technical skill as long as you can perform those technical skills at a high level and teach/coach people on them at a high level as well. Like HCM said he had an impressive background without the lie but realistically he could have peeled potatoes for 20 years but been a hell of a shooter and coach/teacher and the last part is all that what have truly mattered. A lot of students get drawn to the instructors background or resume but generally for the wrong reasons and most here have gotten past that and look for the right qualities.

[Suvorov]

Why not take his shotgun course? If it is because of principle for him lying I can understand and respect that. His training should be the same.

Yes - the ethics bothers me. Same thing happens in my occupation and it it is a tough pill to swallow but all that aside he is shutting down his business so it is all a moot point.

[Peally]

I'm former delta force if anyone wants to take a class.

[Suvorov]

I would say that mostly because there's no reason to. Does he have some secret sauce or teach something that nobody else does?

No?

Then why not take the class from someone that hasn't lied about their background?

Agreed - no one has any secret sauce but some do a better job spreading on the burrito than others. It seemed Mike was a good spreader but for whatever reason felt compelled to lie about his background. In this an most industries that is the kids of death. Should it be? I think almost everyone here agrees that background is not as important as teaching ability but we are hardly a good representation of the entertrainment community. I have to wonder honestly if there is an advantage to lying if you don't get caught?

[critter]

I've been wanting to take his shotgun classes for years now....

As an MI 7.94 agent (Ultra Human Weapon Division), you're welcome to take my class.... but then I'd have to kill you. Highly rated, but, uhhh, severely limited referrals and feedback reviews available upon declassification.

Yeah, this type of deception sucks ass all the way around. I guess some feel the need to pad a resume. Weird in this guy's case because he already has a decent resume. I don't know. I couldn't do it even if I knew for certain the lie would never be discovered. I'd know, and that would make me someone I simply could not respect. Really, how much would or did he actually gain, prior to being discovered of course, from adding that specific little tidbit?

[rob_s]

... lie about his background. In this an most industries that is the kids of death. Should it be?

Yes, it should.

[HCountyGuy]

Like HCM said he had an impressive background without the lie but realistically he could have peeled potatoes for 20 years but been a hell of a shooter and coach/teacher and the last part is all that what have truly mattered. A lot of students get drawn to the instructors background or resume but generally for the wrong reasons and most here have gotten past that and look for the right qualities.

Such is the folly of the average firearms student nowadays. The vast majority naively believe you need a background in an elite military unit or something comparable, otherwise you don't know jack and aren't worth consideration. Or show yourself having a sub-second draw and shoot on Instagram/YouTube and you're a verified badass who can teach anything.

[Default.mp3]

It is my understanding that Lamb had no intention of becoming an instructor originally, so the lie about being Force Recon predates that. In the article, it says that he's been living the lie for 20 years; in 1997, the training industry was nowhere near today's state. While his claim of being Force Recon probably boosted his class size, it wasn't the impetus for the lie.

[BWT]

I just don't understand what the draw is.

I guess I can it'd be nice to have been a part of something great or heroic.

But as I've gotten older and (brace yourself for Christian talk); I've realized more and more my identity is found in who's approval I care about. I know what's God thinks of me and that's what matters.

Giving people the ability to validate or invalidate you leads to this crazy desire for constant approval.

The Black Belt that does my Jiu Jitsu class is a Gracie black belt (and Relson who he earned his belt from visits regularly).

He and some of the distinguished guys at the gym have regular joe jobs other than that.

I think the trap is... just be happy with who you are and if you want to go do something great. Go for it! Better to be a failure than a never tried.

I'm starting as a White Belt and I'm 29 and out of shape. Sure it's humiliating at times but why not?

God Bless,

Brandon

[HopetonBrown]

It is my understanding that Lamb had no intention of becoming an instructor originally, so the lie about being Force Recon predates that. In the article, it says that he's been living the lie for 20 years; in 1997, the training industry was nowhere near today's state. While his claim of being Force Recon probably boosted his class size, it wasn't the impetus for the lie.
Does it matter?

[Joe in PNG]

Nobody has mad skilz like Space Shuttle Door Gunners :cool:

As a rule, if sumdood is lying about his service, there's a good chance he's going to lie about other stuff as well.

An aunt of mine wound up briefly hooked up with a fake Seal, a few decades ago. Dude stole my family's cat, abused my aunt, and wound up facing my Grandpop- an honest to goodness Joisey tough guy, retired Golden Gloves boxer and retired career military. Nary a blow or shot was exchanged- the dude was gone, and gone for good.

[Default.mp3]

Does it matter?Just dispelling the notion that he did it for the sake of buffing up his instructor credentials, due to students wanting to touch the SOF magic.

[HopetonBrown]

Just dispelling the notion that he did it for the sake of buffing up his instructor credentials, due to students wanting to touch the SOF magic.
Didn't he presumably do it for money?

[Default.mp3]

Didn't he presumably do it for money?I have no idea; might have been to make his résumé look better for a job, might have been just to look cool in front of other cool guys. Again, I was merely heading off the discussion of the issue of students wanting only to learn from former SOF, as while an interesting topic, was not the impetus for his lie, and is thus arguable off-topic (this line of discussion seems to come up relatively consistently where ever this story is posted).

[octagon]

Von Braun just liked rockets. We(the US) welcomed Mr Braun without punishment for his development of V2 rockets that killed civilians and many Jewish slave laborers. He lied several times about his knowledge and involvement as a Nazi party member, a member of the SS and what he knew about brutal conditions and treatment of laborers for work on his program of rockets for Hitler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

It is an extreme example but his rewards were great compared to his criminal and repeated actions against innocent people yet we look the other way. I won't defend Mike Lamb's actions but let's keep it in perspective.

[Chance]

It seemed Mike was a good spreader but for whatever reason felt compelled to lie about his background. In this an most industries that is the kids of death. Should it be?

Unquestionably and with no hesitation: absolutely. You're a pilot, right? Would you come to me to learn about handling in-flight emergencies, knowing that I had never soloed?

I think I have a ton of "good ideas" when it comes to handling a deadly force situation. The truth is that the training I have gone through has indicated I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

So I don't teach defensive handgun skills. Imagine someone that only has experience with snorkeling running a drown-proof SCUBA diver class. That's what Mike was doing.

He needs to be ostracized to the full extent of the Internet's wrath, and banished from the realm of legitimate firearms instructors.

[Eli]

I would say that mostly because there's no reason to. Does he have some secret sauce or teach something that nobody else does?

No?

Then why not take the class from someone that hasn't lied about their background?

This.

The market is absolutely saturated at this point. If Option-A a and Option-B offer a very similar experience, but Option-A has a very blatant negative attached to it...then Option-B is going to be the clear winner.

[John Hearne]

My take is this:

A lot of guys just want to sniff the jockstrap and engage in a little LARPing for the weekend. The stronger the scent on your jockstrap, the better an instructor you are considered to be.

The average person doesn't know what they need, they pay for what they want. Why do you think so few instructors have objective standards?

[Cory]

Todd Green didn't need to claim to be something he wasn't. Dude was a lawyer, right? I think we all recognize his teaching ability and skill.
Gabe White doesn't need to claim to be something he isn't. Dude is a pistol instructor who just works his ass off at shooting great. We all accept him as a great shooter.
Ben Steoger doesn't claim to be something he isn't. Dude is a national champ competition shooter. Doesn't claim to be anything else. We can all agree he knows what he is doing.
Pat Rogers didn't need to claim to be something he wasn't. Guy was a Marine and a cop. Didn't need to pile on extra BS. Pretty sure anyone who trained with him would agree he knew his stuff.

I've never trained with any of the above, just to be clear. My point is embellishment of service isn't needed as a firearms instructor. It doesn't change what someone can do, or what they can teach. It also is just plain stupid. Own what you've done, and be proud of what you have accomplished. I was a National Guard MP, got out as an E5 after my first contract, spent some time in the sand. Nothing real badass. I don't need to upsell because I'm cool with who I am and what I've done. Guys that try to add on are insecure. It says a lot about their integrity.

-Cory

[RevolverRob]

My take is this:

A lot of guys just want to sniff the jockstrap and engage in a little LARPing for the weekend. The stronger the scent on your jockstrap, the better an instructor you are considered to be.

The average person doesn't know what they need, they pay for what they want. Why do you think so few instructors have objective standards?

Ding.

Most of the folks I've worked with have been 1) enlisted Jarheads or Grunts. Then 2) LEOs. Then (maybe) 3) SWAT officers. They teach good stuff, work hard to refine it, work to incorporate real world feedback, improve their curricula and improve their teaching styles and methods. Some of these guys were never even in the military, just straight up stateside LEO.

I've never quite understood the fascination with jock sniffing. I know and sometimes drink beer and eat BBQ with some real-deal high speed dudes. They are pretty cool guys and have some good information for consideration. We teach each other stuff. But for the most part they just don't do stuff like I do...I've never had to engage in countersniping or a prolonged gun fight with an armed enemy. Hell...I've never had to kick a door on a crack house for that matter. But those guys don't usually do stuff like me either...As far as I know, none of them have spent lots of time in a suit schmoozing billionaires to give you money. Skills can be learned from all over, from people with very different backgrounds and parallel fields theory suggest it's all about problem solving.

Anyways, that's just my long-winded way of pointing out that "elite" credentials doesn't necessarily make for a good teacher or even relevant curricula. BUT it also doesn't mean there is a lack of relevance either. People need to judge for themselves and unfortunately one way is to assess someone's background. Dishonesty in this realm makes it even more difficult to do this.

[Suvorov]

Unquestionably and with no hesitation: absolutely. You're a pilot, right? Would you come to me to learn about handling in-flight emergencies, knowing that I had never soloed?

I think I have a ton of "good ideas" when it comes to handling a deadly force situation. The truth is that the training I have gone through has indicated I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

So I don't teach defensive handgun skills. Imagine someone that only has experience with snorkeling running a drown-proof SCUBA diver class. That's what Mike was doing.

He needs to be ostracized to the full extent of the Internet's wrath, and banished from the realm of legitimate firearms instructors.

So while I have already stated that the ethics of lying would be enough to put him on the no list regardless of if he remained in business or not, I think your analogies are a little extreme. I don't think Mike was teaching anything out of his league, correct me if I'm wrong - he was teaching things he was fully competent in, just under false pretense. To use your pilot training analogy, suppose I sought out aerobatic/upset training from a guy who claimed to have flown with the Thunderbirds, but instead of flying with the T-Birds he was simply an F-16 instructor pilot. He is still fully qualified to teach me what I need to know and *may* be every bit the instructor or pilot that the Thunderbirds is. Washington is full of such people, they do it to get votes, gun instructors do it to get students or to present themselves as a "hero" in a industry filled with "hero's." While everyone here is mentioning Todd Green and others, lets face it - the average dood wanting to learn to be a badass with a gun or simply is new to the lifestyle and rather naive never heard of TLG (hell - most haven't even heard of Paul Howe) and will gravitate towards the the "cool guys" on the magazine covers and that too is going to lead many folks to lie. The problem is endemic to our culture and doubt any amount of evisceration is going to change that.

I'm not making apologies for the man nor wishing to dampen any torches as we grab our pitchforks, just wondering out loud how we can promote those with good instructing skills to the masses instead of promoting the idea that everyone with a CCL needs to be a snake eater.

[DMF13]

Is there a difference between not correcting every write up on the internet, and claiming false creds yourself?If you are aware of the lie, and do nothing to correct it, then there is no difference IMO.

I have a friend who is assigned to a Special Forces Group. He has deployed regularly with "A-teams" and is a no kidding "trigger puller." However, he has not been through the Q-Course, and is not in an 18x MOS. If anyone makes the mistake of describing him as a "Green Beret" he will quickly and clearly correct them.

In the past I had trained a little with some guys in a very specialized LE group, and done a little work somewhat similar to what they do, but much, much, smaller in scope. Later a few people mistakenly labeled me as being assigned to that group, and when I found out I also quickly and clearly corrected that misconception, as I had most certainly not been part of that crew, and it would be wrong to let that misconception continue and grow.

One cannot be responsible for the misconceptions/lies about themselves, if they are truly ignorant about those lies/misconceptions, but once they are aware of them, they are obligated to set the record straight.

[Ed L]

A minor issue - if you in an ambiguous shooting and go to trial, the statements of your instructors might come up. If they are disreputable, that might be bad. Also, good instructors might testify that you acted correctly. If an instructor has such a flaw, they wouldn't be that useful in your defense.

Just something to think about. I know training as come up in some cases.

If things got to that level you probably would not call that instructor to the witness stand.

I seriously don't think the fact that one of your instructors inflated his credentials and you did not know it at the time is going to hurt you in court, unless they claimed to have been an authentic Jedi Knight and you believed them. Then it would make you look like a gullible person given to easily believing false claims.

[Ed L]

I think the class is moot as he says he's going to shut down the company, in his statement.

Mike was the co-instructor (with Costa) at the Magpul Carbine class I took way back when... seemed like a good dude and had good input during the class.

Shame, but at the same time it's is own doing so it's tough to be overly upset about it. Glad he owned up, but it's a bit late...

I think I was in the same class in 2009. He seemed like a good dude and a good teacher. I did an article on that class for SWAT magazine.

As mentioned, from his explanation it seems like some people mistakenly believed that he was a recon Marine and he never corrected them and once enough people believed that it was too late to correct them without making himself look like a fraud.

I write firearms articles on firearms and training classes which appear in SWAT magazine. I am extra careful that I never misrepresent myself or do anything that *might* be misconstrued in the firearms or training community.

In a recent article that I submitted to SWAT magazine I had written that some old ammo that was used to test a firearm might have been left over from ops in Zangaro, since I would consider that an obvious joke. I had it in the article, but omitted that comment from the final draft because I was afraid it might be misconstrued.

Zangaro is an inside joke among some people in the firearms community. It refers to a fictional African country from Frederick Forsyth's novel The Dogs of War that was made into a movie. I was afraid someone might read it and grossly misconstrue it, and conclude that I was fabricating things, when it was clearly meant to be a joke.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One never knows what comes up. If you didn't know, that's probably defensible. I was commenting on folks saying why not still take his courses after the fact is known. Instructors have been brought up in court and if you take a course, some of mine said they would testify if need be. So it would nice to have one that was reputable.

Make sure your lawyer doesn't have his or her degree from the University of Zangaro. That might hurt you in court even if it is a good shoot.

[rob_s]

They teach good stuff

how do you know?

[rob_s]

Such is the folly of the average firearms student nowadays. The vast majority naively believe you need a background in an elite military unit or something comparable, otherwise you don't know jack and aren't worth consideration. Or show yourself having a sub-second draw and shoot on Instagram/YouTube and you're a verified badass who can teach anything.

IMO you need three things to be able to teach effectively:
1) Real world experience in the subject matter
2) the ability to effectively teach
3) the genuine desire to see your students improve

While #1 alone isn't enough, you can't just have 2 & 3 (and a bunch of classes) and think that you're good to go. Otherwise you wind up with radio hosts teaching gunfighting classes.

[blues]

If I recall correctly, our agency and SRT team received occasional firearms and equipment instruction from sources that were not former this, that or the other but were experts in their particular field. I don't recall receiving tactical instruction from anyone outside that sphere, offhand.

Frankly, while I think it's great to go through an agency SWAT school run by instructors who have been there, done that, (as I was fortunate enough to do during my career)...when it comes to firearms proficiency (as opposed to simply tactics) I could care less if someone with the skills of a Jerry Miculek ever fired a shot in anger.

It all depends on the purpose and goal of the training. Strangely enough, many of the best batting coaches in major league baseball weren't particularly good hitters themselves during their careers.

[Sparks2112]

Otherwise you wind up with radio hosts teaching gunfighting classes.

Are the Greshams teaching gunfighting classes? :confused:

[HCM]

Are the Gresham's teaching gunfighting classes? :confused:


http://youtu.be/E6d_DHz79dQ

[Suvorov]

IMO you need three things to be able to teach effectively:
1) Real world experience in the subject matter
2) the ability to effectively teach
3) the genuine desire to see your students improve

While #1 alone isn't enough, you can't just have 2 & 3 (and a bunch of classes) and think that you're good to go. Otherwise you wind up with radio hosts teaching gunfighting classes.

I would argue that #1 is the least important or at least that students put too much misdirected emphasis on this, which is in part why we are all here discussing the issue of stolen valor in training. Instructors don't need to be honest to God gunslingers to teach the average dood how to defend themselves with a firearm. Many such gunfight survivors (especially military) won the fight out of 1) overwhelming firepower and tactical advantage or 2) luck of the draw. I don't recall TLG ever putting bad guys in the dirt, yet few here would doubt his credentials.

Theoretical training while far from perfect has proven to be adequate time and time again. The US Armored steamrolling of Iraqi forces in Desert Storm was accomplished by soldiers trained by others who had never been in a tank battle in their lives.

I have no problem taking a course from a guy who has never seen the Elephant but has the ability to teach effectively and a true desire to learn AND teaches a vetted and sound curriculum.

[Default.mp3]

Some further clarification on the situation: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/04/make-lamb-lied-about-his-service-for-15-years-now-hes-telling-the-truth/

[TGS]

I would argue that #1 is the least important or at least that students put too much misdirected emphasis on this, which is in part why we are all here discussing the issue of stolen valor in training. Instructors don't need to be honest to God gunslingers to teach the average dood how to defend themselves with a firearm. Many such gunfight survivors (especially military) won the fight out of 1) overwhelming firepower and tactical advantage or 2) luck of the draw. I don't recall TLG ever putting bad guys in the dirt, yet few here would doubt his credentials.

Theoretical training while far from perfect has proven to be adequate time and time again. The US Armored steamrolling of Iraqi forces in Desert Storm was accomplished by soldiers trained by others who had never been in a tank battle in their lives.

I have no problem taking a course from a guy who has never seen the Elephant but has the ability to teach effectively and a true desire to learn AND teaches a vetted and sound curriculum.

At least in the courses I took from him, he wasn't teaching tactics or self-defense. He generally was teaching the mechanical aspect of shooting, whether you applied those mechanics to competition, hobbyism, or self-defense was up to you. Rob's point #1 wasn't that someone has to have experience in mil/LE, but that they should have experience in the subject matter being taught.

Thus, Todd had tons of real-world experience in the given subject matter, and is definitely something that contributed to his success in teaching people.

If he tried teaching vehicle counter-ambush, vehicle approach tactics, limited penetration 1-2 man structure tactics or dynamic entry.....things would have been very different.

[Chance]

I'm not making apologies for the man nor wishing to dampen any torches as we grab our pitchforks, just wondering out loud how we can promote those with good instructing skills to the masses instead of promoting the idea that everyone with a CCL needs to be a snake eater.

I'm not even sure that's possible. My first class was with Travis Haley, and you can see by the AAR I wrote about it afterwards that I thought it was great. Looking back... ugh. I only learned the hard way, and I think that's necessarily the case. I was lucky enough to both, a) know how to do research, and b) stumble upon Pistol-Forum, or I'd still be an Instagram commando.

And I think it's up to instructors to also do self-promotion. I know we often compound self-promotion with having an ego and liking attention (and it often is because they have an ego and like attention), but people have got to do self-promotion somehow. I love Paul Howe (I'm actually training with him again this weekend, which is my fourth trip to CSAT), but so few people know him because he doesn't do much to put his name out there. I think it's a similar thing with Mike Pannone, Ernest Langdon, and a lot of other stellar trainers: they could be a big deal if they wanted to, they just don't want to.

In the mean time, the guys with big egos, slim credentials, huge social media followings, and are James Yeager are the ones training the masses. I think that's just how it is.

[rob_s]

I would argue that #1 is the least important or at least that students put too much misdirected emphasis on this, which is in part why we are all here discussing the issue of stolen valor in training. Instructors don't need to be honest to God gunslingers to teach the average dood how to defend themselves with a firearm. Many such gunfight survivors (especially military) won the fight out of 1) overwhelming firepower and tactical advantage or 2) luck of the draw. I don't recall TLG ever putting bad guys in the dirt, yet few here would doubt his credentials.

Theoretical training while far from perfect has proven to be adequate time and time again. The US Armored steamrolling of Iraqi forces in Desert Storm was accomplished by soldiers trained by others who had never been in a tank battle in their lives.

I have no problem taking a course from a guy who has never seen the Elephant but has the ability to teach effectively and a true desire to learn AND teaches a vetted and sound curriculum.

It helps that theoretical training is most often applied to theoretical gunfights.

[octagon]

It is important also to consider how the instructor's experience influences their teaching. I have taken a number of courses from instructors that have been involved in A gunfight or shooting. Often enough their program had a strong focus on the challenges of that one shooting incident they were involved in. They had a lot of longer distance drills or hostage scenario drills etc if their shooting had a longer distance shot or hostage situation shot. This can be limiting and less of a beneficial experience if it is too narrow in scope or too far removed from the student's needs. I took a course with Jim Cirillo who had been in multiple shootings and gunfights and it was obvious the experience and broadness of experience was beneficial rather then just 1 or 2 incidents. The fact that he was a LEO, hunter,firearms instructor for NYPD and FLETC just added to his diverse background. I am taking a class with Robert Vogel in 2 weeks and hope to get better gun handling/shooting skills out of not necessarily LEO tactics and techniques even though he is/was a full and part time LEO. Some instructors sell themselves outside their base of knowledge and experience. Some also try and do too much in one class or too short of a class to properly cover topics well enough.

[Sparks2112]

It helps that theoretical training is most often applied to theoretical gunfights.

My ideal Citizen context 16 hour "self-defense" class would have 4 hours of UoF law, 4 hours of Craig's MUC, 4 hours of Aprill's VCA go/no-go selection material, 2 hours of Chuck's OC material, and 2 hours of Caleb's medical stuff.

"Gunfighting" for private citizens, is stupid, and ignores reality.

[45dotACP]

Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

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[Sparks2112]

Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

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"Kilt On Da Streetz!"

[blues]

Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

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Especially if he's fighting in those clunky wooden shoes.

[rob_s]

Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

That's what you're getting?

Man, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

[TGS]

Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

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No one has suggested such at all.

[45dotACP]

IMO you need three things to be able to teach effectively:
1) Real world experience in the subject matter
2) the ability to effectively teach
3) the genuine desire to see your students improve

While #1 alone isn't enough, you can't just have 2 & 3 (and a bunch of classes) and think that you're good to go. Otherwise you wind up with radio hosts teaching gunfighting classes.

Gana thread drift here, but I'm genuinely curious.

I agree that having real world experience is a definite Good Thing(TM). But wouldn't the most important be to teach something grounded in reality/effectiveness. There are dudes and dudettes who have survived shootings that would make horrible teachers because what worked for them was a one off. They fired a shot, got lucky or their technique or what they preach is just dumb. I mean, listen to guys like Bob Stasch...he admits to not being a particularly great shot, only used two hands on the gun in 3 of his 14 shootings, and almost always aimed for the head with a large caliber firearm...that's contrary to nearly every accepted doctrine from every self defense expert today. If he taught a class today, he'd be laughed out of the room by most of the defensive cognoscenti no?

But he survived 14 shootings.

It behooves me that shooting to defend oneself is not nearly so difficult as it may seem...at least from the mechanical aspect of shooting. Distance is likely close, a flash sight picture is likely all you need, even to hit a head. If you don't freak the fuck out you'll probably be OK.

At the risk of waxing philosophical...what else can you practice on a range, in a class or even (to a degree) in force on force? Can you train the ability to be aggressive? To close with a violent opponent who wants you to die as badly as you want to live? Can you train the willingness to take a gunshot wound...to die to protect yourself or someone else? Can you train knowing when you need to shoot so well that it's seamless? A shitload of that other stuff is experiential and...at least from what I understand...cannot be trained. Guys like Bob Stasch or Jim Cirillo have it because they've been in it...and the only real way to get it is to do it. Everything else is just hoping you're ready when the bell rings and Mungo steps out of his corner.

I'll admit for sure if I'm wrong, but I'm interested in getting y'alls input. All other things being equal, a coach who's done it for real is a valuable asset...but all other things are rarely equal. I'd sooner take a class from Gabe White than James Yeager...and Yeager's been in a firefight ;)

As to "real world experience", I roll with a newer guy in my gym who has used Taekwondo in a real actual fight or two. But put him against a skilled opponent and he'll get an ass beating. He won because he was lucky and because his opponents were either half drunk or just not very good fighters. He's got more "Real World" experience than most of the blue belts in my school...but they can submit him or take him down in less than a minute.

[Chance]

Soooo...what I'm getting from this thread is that Bas Rutten would never survive a street fight because he never trained with a street fighter?

Bas was a street fighter before he was a prize fighter. Just saying.

[LittleLebowski]

Integrity matters, real world fighting experience or not. Plus, Lamb is still full of shit trying to brag about "deployments with agencies." Yeah...an intel pogue "deploying" with intel agencies almost always is not in any way, close to say, a standard infantryman's deployment. ToddG didn't lie about a damn thing regarding his resume and he was an excellent trainer whom never had a problem filling a class.

[critter]

It seems Dave Canterbury recovered and flourished after his outing and ousting for padding his background. Different 'field' but apparently it can happen.

[octagon]

45dotACP My take is along the lines of the proof is in the pudding line of thinking. A person involved in 1 or 2 shootings may have gotten lucky. A person who was in 14-15 it's doubtful they were lucky everytime so they must be doing something right. I won't take everything they say and do as gospel and attempt to be a clone of them just consider what they have to offer with the understanding of their experience helps validate what they are espousing. I also like to get as many quality views/recommendations as possible to help broaden my knowledge base to help ME decide what will likely work best for ME. I don't have the height to dunk a ball on my toes like some basketball players, the team and training of a special forces operator or the strength and flexibility of a gymnast to do what they can do. If I take their class I try and get what I can use for me out of each of them. Each may help me be better in all my activities but I put more credibility in the gymnast for gymnastics the basketball player for basketball and so on. That doesn't mean I ignore what each has to say about the other disciplines or what my neighbor can teach me about each.

[RevolverRob]

how do you know?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean. I have a lot of experience teaching people complex material. So, I tend to look first at teaching style and engagement then at curriculum. As for how would I know?

A critical self-assessment of my changing needs as a person/professional, so that I am looking for training that makes sense in my real-world setting. Seeking out training from folks who have a short catalog of fundamentals and train hard in the application of those. Ultimately, that's how you successfully teach anything, a breakdown into fundamental components, drill those components, and then combine those components for more advanced techniques. Shooting a gun isn't difficult, neither for that matter, is using a knife to stab someone. There is some nuance to it, but not a lot and mastery (or at least plenty of experience) of basic fundamentals is mostly what it takes to be successful in virtually anything. The only other component is to be able to link fundamentals together and problem solve in a dynamic way.

Good instructors will teach and drill fundamentals.
Excellent instructors will teach and drill fundamentals and show you how to link them together for more complex problem solving.

[Default.mp3]

Integrity matters, real world fighting experience or not. Plus, Lamb is still full of shit trying to brag about "deployments with agencies." Yeah...an intel pogue "deploying" with intel agencies almost always is not in any way, close to say, a standard infantryman's deployment. ToddG didn't lie about a damn thing regarding his resume and he was an excellent trainer whom never had a problem filling a class.

Before we head down the road of other forums, let me just drop this here, and then we can continue with whatever folks feel is necessary to make themselves feel better.

First..Mike is a friend. Is he a dumb ass on this, yes. Did he screw up, yes. Will this likely ruin his world, yes. Did he flush some of that honor a man gifts himself down the toilet, yes. Moving on.

Mike is a very good top level instructor. Mike did do some very impressive things overseas that is unique for the military side of things. I got email confirmation this morning from a high level alphabet guy confirming that Mike did some extensive, dangerous work overseas in a very sensitive arena. The guy was running the group Mike was with, and it was only one of multiples. He had never heard Mike claim to be a Force guy. By all accounts, Mike was a stellar Marine. How this Force thing came up and grew legs.....don't know. When it started, Mike was not teaching, so it likely had little to do with pure profit. I would imagine that stopping it a long time ago would have been a far more profitable thing to do. This is not a case of a guy who never went to boot camp claiming he was a war hero. If you want to lump Mike into that group...fine, but that is not the case.

If you were a Force Marine .......free fire zone. You have every right to say anything you want. It is like all the folks running around with toy badge claiming to be "cops" in this same industry. Guess what, some of us went through real hiring processes, real backgrounds, real psych evaluations, real competitive processes, real police academy's, real FTO training, real probation, and the real stuff that goes along with job.......which earns me the right to be pissed at those who didn't and claim to hold equal status. I will apply the same standard.

Okay, begin the dog pile as you find necessary.Emphasis added by me. Source: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/mike-lamb-not-a-recon-marine?reply=44939392945634909#44939392945634909

[LittleLebowski]

Emphasis added by me. Source: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/mike-lamb-not-a-recon-marine?reply=44939392945634909#44939392945634909

My opinion remains unchanged.

[rob_s]

I'm honestly not sure what you mean. I have a lot of experience teaching people complex material. So, I tend to look first at teaching style and engagement then at curriculum. As for how would I know?

A critical self-assessment of my changing needs as a person/professional, so that I am looking for training that makes sense in my real-world setting. Seeking out training from folks who have a short catalog of fundamentals and train hard in the application of those. Ultimately, that's how you successfully teach anything, a breakdown into fundamental components, drill those components, and then combine those components for more advanced techniques. Shooting a gun isn't difficult, neither for that matter, is using a knife to stab someone. There is some nuance to it, but not a lot and mastery (or at least plenty of experience) of basic fundamentals is mostly what it takes to be successful in virtually anything. The only other component is to be able to link fundamentals together and problem solve in a dynamic way.

Good instructors will teach and drill fundamentals.
Excellent instructors will teach and drill fundamentals and show you how to link them together for more complex problem solving.

None of which answers my question.

You said "they teach good stuff".

I'm curious as to how you know what they are teaching is "good stuff"?

[Trooper224]

The really shouldn't surprise anyone. In the current training profession, the guys who have shit on their shoes in one form or another outweigh the guys who don't. Egos get involved and everyone wants to be the alphaest male in the alpha group. It seems, in order to appear credible (read that as sellable) you have to have a few tours in the sandbox, or some kind of theater with a playground attached nickname. Being a ground pounder humping an M4 isn't good enough either, you have to have served with some "force", "unit" or "team" which shall not be named but of course everyone knows about. At the very least, if you're an ex-LEO you'd better have experience with something on the minimum level of LAPDs D Platoon, 'cause ya know this is all necessary to teach people basic self defense in urban america. "Please tell me how you fast roped out of a Blackhawk by the light of the moon into Fallujah, or explain how you breached the embassy and took out terrorists with your MP5, because those are the skills I need to defend myself with my Kel-Tec during a mugging." The training environment has turned into something of a shit show where everyone with a DD214 and a Youtube presence thinks they can teach. So it's not surprising people feel the need to pad their resume, even guys with pretty extensive qualifications spin stories about gunning down Texas carjackers and what not. You know, alpha among alphas and all that. Personally, integrity matters to me more than anything and I'm not impressed by past shannanigans, so pieces of bovine excrement like Force Recon Wannabe Lamb won't get my money, but I'm hardly shocked or surprised.

[RevolverRob]

None of which answers my question.

You said "they teach good stuff".

I'm curious as to how you know what they are teaching is "good stuff"?

You want an objective measure of good?

The folks I've trained with have trained tens of thousands of people over probably a 100-years of combined training experience. The individuals who they have trained have employed those techniques (by their (the trainees) own admission) in various encounters with virtually universal success. In terms of raw numbers success rates are in the 99% range, which means even under a strict frequentist statistical setting the curricula taught have the highest statistical confidence value. - If your objective measure of "good" is, "The material taught and internalized by students results in them successfully surviving violent encounters, therefore the material is good." - Then a ~1% failure rate is by proxy also good.
___

Other techniques/approaches/etc. may (not necessarily) have lower success rates. Those which have anything lower than a comparable system would be/should be deemed objectively "bad".

I, personally, take time to investigate folks and ask for these types of numbers. By the by, this objective measure may not make Mike Lamb an objectively "bad" instructor (I've never bothered to investigate Lamb's numbers, so I don't know). A lack of honesty and integrity is a a related, but still partly separate matter from teaching good or bad material. However, the way in which someone conducts their self as a professional often shapes the way in which they think, build, and teach their curricula.

One of the best parts about the "success metric" is that it encompasses not only curriculum, but the teaching of it. If students can learn and internalize the lessons, they are better able to use them successfully. That's not "fighting science" - that's straight pedagogical effectiveness 101. It's probably the best metric for assessing "good" and "bad" that one can get. But it may not give you the most nuanced answer. It's up to the end user to determine if the material taught is relevant to their life. And unfortunately, without ground truthing it's impossible to know good from bad. Which means, at the end of the day, you may not know good from bad until your world is upside down. So, you have to have confidence that something you're learning has a high(er) chance of success than not learning anything at all.

That is a strong advantage of force-on-force working against a resisting opponent-type training. Shooting static or even moving targets isn't going to give you a sense of...failure...in a gunfight. Not, at least, like three dudes jumping on you, while you try to get a simunitions gun out and shoot them will.

I really don't have more to say on this matter. I try to be objective in my measure of "good stuff". Basing it on success rate, applicability to my own circumstances, and teaching style. I like working with folks who have successfully taught a large(r) number of people. It tends to tell you that they are good teachers AND that what they are teaching isn't completely bogus. The reality is that even in the training world, there is some "peer review" going on. Just ask any trainer what he thinks about X, Y, or Z. You'll get a biased opinion, but often one that has objectivity in its own right.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm reading that others said Mike was a Recon Marine, and he just never corrected them. This is a screen cap of his background from his website before the revelation.

16264

And after.

16265

[LittleLebowski]

Yup, he knowingly perpetuated the lie.


I'm reading that others said Mike was a Recon Marine, and he just never corrected them. This is a screen cap of his background from his website before the revelation.

16264

And after.

16265

[Shoresy]

I would say that mostly because there's no reason to. Does he have some secret sauce or teach something that nobody else does?

No?

Then why not take the class from someone that hasn't lied about their background?

Pretty much this, especially the bolded. There are times when you might have no other option but to hold your nose and deal with someone because there are no other good options. I don't see this as being one of those times.

[Chance]

Yup, he knowingly perpetuated the lie.

His Panteao videos have a similar description. I can't find him on their website. If the guy has no-shit experience, and he apparently does, he could have just said so.

I don't get it.

[LOKNLOD]

Sooooo.... from the blurb above: Stoic ventures takes its name from Stoicism and the "belief that destructive emotions cause errors in judgement".

The irony is thick enough to cut with a tomahawk.

[blues]

Sooooo.... from the blurb above: Stoic ventures takes its name from Stoicism and the "belief that destructive emotions cause errors in judgement".

The irony is thick enough to cut with a tomahawk.

16267

"I repeat. Do as I say...not as I do!"

[El Cid]

I'm reading that others said Mike was a Recon Marine, and he just never corrected them. This is a screen cap of his background from his website before the revelation.

16264

And after.

16265


Perhaps he counts his webmaster as "others saying it and not correcting them?" Looks like he admitted to a lie with another lie.

As for instructors having real world experience I see it as an enhancement. It's not necessary but helps put things in context. Being able to teach and diagnose is what I view as critical. It's why I enjoyed training with Mac, Defoor, Pannone, Procter, and F2S. And why I'll train with them again. They have the skills and the experience. There are instructors who I want to train with who never went into harms way. It's not mandatory for me. YMMV.

[blackhatter]

I'm suprised so many are taking up for this POS.

1. Maybe, just maybe, the lie started out as a lie of omission. I don't think that's an excuse, but if you think that's a mitigating factor then remember he outright said he was Force Recon plenty of times.

2. He lied about his rank.

3. No, his resume wasn't good enough as it was, at least not if he wanted to get hired by Magpul, which in turn allowed him to hang out his own shingle. He was a junior enlisted commo geek. If, and that's a big if because he's a liar, if he was attached to an intel agency it was probably to put fills in radios or some other low responsibility duty. Don't let your imagination run wild. He wasn't Jason Bourne.

4. He hasn't "owned" this. He only came clean because he was about to be outed.

5. There's no shortage of good instructors. We aren't diminished by him slinking into oblivion.

6. If you have a cavalier attitude about someone claiming membership in an elite group, it makes me think you've never been part of such a group. If you had had to bleed and sweat to get there and watched others from your group pay the ultimate sacrifice as part of that of that group, you might not be so forgiving.

[vmi-mo]

To me, experience matters and my priorities are very similar to RobS.

Does an individual need to be a professional gun carrier to teach shooting? No. An example, guys like Jerry are brought into various organizations to teach shooting, because they have a huge grasp on shooting, given their huge amount of experience with shooting. They are not brought in to teach tactics. They are brought in to teach shooting.

Does an individual need a background and experience in small unit tactics, in order to teach small unit tactics? Absolutely.

Experience, when properly tempered with reflection and analysis allows an instructor to have a much more comprehensive grasp of the material, which he can then relay to students.

Most anything worth instructing, especially tactics, has 2 parts. A task, and a purpose. I do this_________, so that________. Teaching a task is easy. Anyone can instruct an action (aka shooting instructors teaching shooting, and being good at it). As you begin teaching more art and not science stuff, the purpose or the "why" rapidly begins to outweigh the action. Because understanding the "why" allows you to apply the task in whatever situation you find yourself in.

My most formative instruction was done in a school house where nearly all the instructors where combat vets. Not out of requirement, but out of a self selecting process. Having that degree of experience in the instructor cadre lended itself to a knowing of the "Why" which I am convinced would not have come if the instructors were not as experienced. Ultimately that instruction has paid dividends.

[Shellback]

I have no clue as to why anyone would ever defend him. Stolen Valor. He should be arrested and charged.

[Suvorov]

I have no clue as to why anyone would ever defend him. Stolen Valor. He should be arrested and charged.

I'm wondering who here is defending him?

[jlw]

I have no clue as to why anyone would ever defend him. Stolen Valor. He should be arrested and charged.

Charged with what? The original Stolen Valor Act was ruled unconstitutional. The 2013 revision of the law only applies if a person claims one of the specified valor awards with intent to obtain money, property, etc. Claiming to be a Recon Marine is not claiming to have received one of the specified valor awards.

[Shellback]

Charged with what? The original Stolen Valor Act was ruled unconstitutional. The 2013 revision of the law only applies if a person claims one of the specified valor awards with intent to obtain money, property, etc. Claiming to be a Recon Marine is not claiming to have received one of the specified valor awards.

How about being charged with fraud for intentionally deceiving people for monetary gain?

I should've changed my original sentence structure. I didn't mean charged with Stolen Valor, but I can see how it would be interpreted as that. Posting on the fly, sorry.

[Hambo]

The really shouldn't surprise anyone. In the current training profession, the guys who have shit on their shoes in one form or another outweigh the guys who don't. Egos get involved and everyone wants to be the alphaest male in the alpha group. It seems, in order to appear credible (read that as sellable) you have to have a few tours in the sandbox, or some kind of theater with a playground attached nickname. Being a ground pounder humping an M4 isn't good enough either, you have to have served with some "force", "unit" or "team" which shall not be named but of course everyone knows about. At the very least, if you're an ex-LEO you'd better have experience with something on the minimum level of LAPDs D Platoon, 'cause ya know this is all necessary to teach people basic self defense in urban america. "Please tell me how you fast roped out of a Blackhawk by the light of the moon into Fallujah, or explain how you breached the embassy and took out terrorists with your MP5, because those are the skills I need to defend myself with my Kel-Tec during a mugging." The training environment has turned into something of a shit show where everyone with a DD214 and a Youtube presence thinks they can teach. So it's not surprising people feel the need to pad their resume, even guys with pretty extensive qualifications spin stories about gunning down Texas carjackers and what not. You know, alpha among alphas and all that. Personally, integrity matters to me more than anything and I'm not impressed by past shannanigans, so pieces of bovine excrement like Force Recon Wannabe Lamb won't get my money, but I'm hardly shocked or surprised.

Word.

[blues]

Liars, prevaricators, deceivers, cheats, phonies, perjurers, dissimulators, equivocators, fibbers, falsifiers and misleaders all suck.

[jlw]

How about being charged with fraud for intentionally deceiving people for monetary gain?

I should've changed my original sentence structure. I didn't mean charged with Stolen Valor, but I can see how it would be interpreted as that. Posting on the fly, sorry.

So, what's the venue for the charges?

[Mr. Goodtimes]

First Chris Costa gets caught training with Yeager and now this... oh what is the world coming to...


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[Totem Polar]

Liars, prevaricators, deceivers, cheats, phonies, perjurers, dissimulators, equivocators, fibbers, falsifiers and misleaders all suck.



https://youtube.com/watch?v=4gHzHu1_arw

[Totem Polar]

Nevermind. Too unserious.

[Suvorov]

A pretty good read and I think mirrors a lot of comments here.

http://www.breachbangclear.com/mike-lamb-is-a-liarso-what-who-cares/

[LittleLebowski]

A pretty good read and I think mirrors a lot of comments here.

http://www.breachbangclear.com/mike-lamb-is-a-liarso-what-who-cares/

I hated that article (nothing on you).

[TGS]

A pretty good read and I think mirrors a lot of comments here.

http://www.breachbangclear.com/mike-lamb-is-a-liarso-what-who-cares/

Reading his "bio" made me want to vomit.

So basically a douche that's angry he loses business to guys with LE/mil backgrounds, and writes an article bitching about it.

He even uses an HK marketing photo on his website, which sort of caught my eye at first glance as odd.

Makes me think of that VODA Consulting guy, the dude in the Phillipines that used the Metal Gear Solid photo for his website, and that Detroit security group that walks around in blue/white cammies, all wrapped into one.

ETA:

yup, look at that. Criminal record. https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06/02/careful-train/

Yeah, this is definitely a guy we should be taking lessons from, whether it's in articles or a class.

ETA 2: "During his 25 year career in the private sector he has worked full-time as a personal protection specialist for a diverse clientele to include foreign heads of state......"

Just so we're all clear, that can basically be read as, "I worked a magnetometer one time at a venue where a foreign head of state attended."

[andre3k]

Sometimes I long for the Pre-GWOT era of firearms instruction. Seems like the GWOT, YouTube and social media all conspired together and changed the game up for firearms instruction.

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[rob_s]

Sometimes I long for the Pre-GWOT era of firearms instruction. Seems like the GWOT, YouTube and social media all conspired together and changed the game up for firearms instruction.

The thing is, there's not really many people still lingering that remember or know what things were like then. Couple that with most people's inability to understand that there was a world without them immediately before they were born, or other people that were already into a hobby or activity up to and including the 30 seconds preceding them becoming aware of it.

I *do* get a sense that there is some semblance of a movement towards people just teaching shooting. I frankly think that's the best approach for most people, both shooters and instructors.

[GardoneVT]

Two thoughts here. One, there is no accreditation process for gun instructors- and due to certain logistical and political realities creating one isn't feasible. So there's no impartial agency that can be used to determine if a instructor is full of it -and frankly they'd just lie about having such a seal of approval too if need be.

Two- because the only thing you need to be a "gun instructor" is a big mouth ,this sort of stolen valor is and has always been a problem in the business. Mile Lamb lied about his military affiliation,but so do half the gun counter employees and customers at any given moment in America. If I took everyone who claimed military affiliation at face value who came through my range,I'd have more special ops clients then the nearest bar to Ft Bragg.

So moral of the story is,in our cynical world you're better off dropping $2,000 and flying cross country to train with an established name then taking a local class from "Spec Ops Steve " who might know how to shoot,but says his 29 year old self was in "The Teams" in Laos.

[blues]

Sometimes you can just tell when a guy is the real deal. I'd train with this guy anytime...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/3e/8f/773e8fa3330a962d4768503c61472446.jpg


That's a fact jack!


https://youtu.be/2o0V6VPX_E0

[LittleLebowski]

Two thoughts here. One, there is no accreditation process for gun instructors- and due to certain logistical and political realities creating one isn't feasible. So there's no impartial agency that can be used to determine if a instructor is full of it -and frankly they'd just lie about having such a seal of approval too if need be.

Two- because the only thing you need to be a "gun instructor" is a big mouth ,this sort of stolen valor is and has always been a problem in the business. Mile Lamb lied about his military affiliation,but so do half the gun counter employees and customers at any given moment in America. If I took everyone who claimed military affiliation at face value who came through my range,I'd have more special ops clients then the nearest bar to Ft Bragg.

So moral of the story is,in our cynical world you're better off dropping $2,000 and flying cross country to train with an established name then taking a local class from "Spec Ops Steve " who might know how to shoot,but says his 29 year old self was in "The Teams" in Laos.

Or...just find a top notch local instructor like say, John Murphy or Mr Pink / 77grOption

[GardoneVT]

Or...just find a top notch local instructor like say, John Murphy or Mr Pink / 77grOption

Local is a relative term. There's many folk whose only practical option for effective training involves a plane ride somewhere else.

Edit-switching gears for a moment,I would never allow anyone else to mis-state my service history.
It's happened before that folks assume a muscular black dude running a Beretta must have "put in work" with a special outfit,and I've made it clear I worked Air Force Finance.As in an office job in uniform. Letting people assume you're Special Ops when it's not so is as equally fucked up as saying so yourself.

[blues]

Local is a relative term. There's many folk whose only practical option for effective training involves a plane ride somewhere else.

Edit-switching gears for a moment,I would never allow anyone else to mis-state my service history.
It's happened before that folks assume a muscular black dude running a Beretta must have "put in work" with a special outfit,and I've made it clear I worked Air Force Finance.As in an office job in uniform. Letting people assume you're Special Ops when it's not so is as equally fucked up as saying so yourself.

How'd they know you weren't Shaft? ;)

Man, I never get mistaken for anything cool like that. People did, however, used to tell me that the way I carried myself they figured I was a cop or in LE. Especially back in my 'stache days. Now I just look like some cop's (once muscular) retired father. Sigh.

[heyscooter]

Emphasis added by me. Source: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/mike-lamb-not-a-recon-marine?reply=44939392945634909#44939392945634909

Not all high level alphabet people are as high level in their ability to do their jobs as you think.

[Default.mp3]

Not all high level alphabet people are as high level in their ability to do their jobs as you think.Maybe, maybe not. You don't know what I think of the IC's tactical abilities, after all.

That being said, if Dagga Boy is willing to accept that source's word as being a valid evaluation of Lamb's work during his time attached to IC elements, I am willing to accept that evaluation, too, not because of the fact that the source was a high level IC employee, but because Dagga Boy accepted it.

But ultimately, to me, it doesn't matter much; I was merely providing further context and information, nothing more. To me, Lamb is just another instructor in a sea of them, and his fall from grace doesn't really say much to me that I didn't know before.

[heyscooter]

But ultimately, to me, it doesn't matter much; I was merely providing further context and information, nothing more. To me, Lamb is just another instructor in a sea of them, and his fall from grace doesn't really say much to me that I didn't know before.

Fair enough. My point is that people throw out associations with organizations all the time in an attempt to attribute their successes. I don't recommend this as a way to assess someone's ability to perform, IC included.

[Ed L]

Sometimes I long for the Pre-GWOT era of firearms instruction. Seems like the GWOT, YouTube and social media all conspired together and changed the game up for firearms instruction.




The thing is, there's not really many people still lingering that remember or know what things were like then. Couple that with most people's inability to understand that there was a world without them immediately before they were born, or other people that were already into a hobby or activity up to and including the 30 seconds preceding them becoming aware of it.


As much as I disagree with you sometimes, Rob, from time to time you do produce some profound thoughts like the one I quoted above.

[Ed L]

I've taken a class from Mike Lamb. He and Costa co-instructed a Magpul Dynamics class that I wrote an article on for SWAT Magazine. I found him to be a good teacher and a nice guy.

However it happened, exaggerating your military credentials in the manner he did--claiming to be a recon Marine when he wasn't--is the kiss of death in this industry. The story sounds bizarre in many ways that have already been hashed over.

Because he was a nice guy and I liked him, and because I am working on keeping my blood pressure down I can forgive him. Though I might be able to over look this transgression and take a class with him, I would not expect everyone else to--especially people who had served in the military.

Since I have written between 30 and 40 articles for SWAT and things are getting boring in my life, I have decided that it is time for my own scandal.

Since Tom won't let me post my home sex tapes on this forum, I guess It's time to reveal my background.


Mr. L. served in the Extra-Special Forces where he specialized in short bus assaults (or maybe he and his team traveled in a short bus).

Mr. L. worked as a special adviser to the Batista regime in Cuba where he was instrumental in the assassination attempt on Hyman Roth.

Mr. L. was a flight attendant on the plane which Michael Echanis got shot down over Lake Nicaragua.

Mr. L saw combat ops alongside Christopher Walken in the African nation of Zangaro.

Mr. L. served as a firearms consultant to the the TV shows I Love Lucy and Seinfeld.

Mr. L. served as body double for Matthew McConaughey in the movie Magic Mike.

Mr. L. wears a ballistic helmet not for his protection, but for yours.

[Trooper224]

Man, I never get mistaken for anything cool like that. People did, however, used to tell me that the way I carried myself they figured I was a cop or in LE. Especially back in my 'stache days. Now I just look like some cop's (once muscular) retired father. Sigh.

Once, when I had my youngest son and some of his buddies in tow, I happened to run into a former SEAL I knew from my Navy days. One of the boys asked, "You used to be a SEAL?" I replied, "Oh hell no! I just had some of them save my ass once upon a time."

About a year ago I walked into the gym wearing an old t-shirt with the words, "State Trooper" on the back. The kid behind the counter asked, "So you're a retired State Trooper?" I replied with a smile, "Not yet you snot nosed punk!"

I just don't get the fragile egos that force people to present themselves as something they aren't. Some of the finest people I've ever known never served a day in any kind of uniform. We're all different, with many things to offer. One of the things I find troubling in the post GWOT world is the sense of fanboisism and cult of celebrity that's sprung up around the military. It's always been there, but cyberspace and social media have really brought it to a frenzy. It isn't healthy for people on the outside, and doubly so for those on the inside. Far too many of whom now have heads so large they couldn't fit through a garage door.

[blues]

Once, when I had my youngest son and some of his buddies in tow, I happened to run into a former SEAL I knew from my Navy days. One of the boys asked, "You used to be a SEAL?" I replied, "Oh hell no! I just had some of them save my ass once upon a time."

About a year ago I walked into the gym wearing an old t-shirt with the words, "State Trooper" on the back. The kid behind the counter asked, "So you're a retired State Trooper?" I replied with a smile, "Not yet you snot nosed punk!"

I just don't get the fragile egos that force people to present themselves as something they aren't. Some of the finest people I've ever known never served a day in any kind of uniform. We're all different, with many things to offer. One of the things I find troubling in the post GWOT world is the sense of fanboisism and cult of celebrity that's sprung up around the military. It's always been there, but cyberspace and social media have really brought it to a frenzy. It isn't healthy for people on the outside, and doubly so for those on the inside. Far too many of whom now have heads so large they couldn't fit through a garage door.

I agree with you. While I'm proud that folks have seen in me a certain discipline or bearing of some sort, and I'm proud to have had a career in LE, I'd never for a moment let someone believe I was something I was not.

There was an older gentleman that lived about a half mile from me that would see me and my Weimaraner out each morning for a walk. One day he asked me if I was retired from the military and I asked him why. He said because I appeared to walk very erect with a straight back and good posture. (Which is kind of funny because my father always bitched about the way I'd sit slumped on the couch.) I immediately told him that I'd have been proud to have served in the military but never had. LE was the closest I had come.

To each his own but once I'm lied to I can forgive but never quite forget. It's a much worse character flaw imho than many folks give it credit for.

[ReverendMeat]

Would it be lying by omission if, when someone says "Iraq? You must have seen some shit, huh?" I were to just shrug rather than explain for the nth time the most action I saw was sleeping through some IDF and playing Nazi Zombies on the X-Box?

[blues]

Would it be lying by omission if, when someone says "Iraq? You must have seen some shit, huh?" I were to just shrug rather than explain for the nth time the most action I saw was sleeping through some IDF and playing Nazi Zombies on the X-Box?

https://m.popkey.co/4cca81/4grX_f-maxage-0.gif

[octagon]

Point of interest. I looked on Panteo productions online and they have removed the Mike Lamb videos for both purchase and live streaming. I wonder if it was them or him that requested or made the change.

[GardoneVT]

Part of the issue also is the relative lack of consequences in claiming false military history.

People who lie about credentials in other lines of work face pretty serious consequences - one news report detailed a University professor who claimed a false doctorate being charged with grand larceny by the state, on account of the wages he was paid being stolen funds.

A cheese dick "instructor" who lies or exaggerates their military service faces Internet disgrace and loss of some contracts in the gun world.Not good,but all they need do is move and set up shop somewhere else. No jail time,no fraud charges, not even local notoriety in some cases. Lamb could get a job at an FFL in Wyoming and they'd be none the wiser.

[jondoe297]

The training environment has turned into something of a shit show where everyone with a DD214 and a Youtube presence thinks they can teach.

That's hilarious, doubly because it's true, and because I've made nearly that same exact statement before.
"These days every swinging dick with a DD214 and a youtube account is a firearms instructor"

[Robert Mitchum]

Range Time with Cory ....Erika and Mike

165181651916520

[Mr Pink]

That's hilarious, doubly because it's true, and because I've made nearly that same exact statement before.
"These days every swinging dick with a DD214 and a youtube account is a firearms instructor"Wait a minute...I'm a firearms instructor with a DD214 and a youtube account. If I'd have only known, I wouldn't have wasted a lot of years teaching and going to instructor schools for nothing ;)

[blues]

Wait a minute...I'm a firearms instructor with a DD214 and a youtube account. If I'd have only known, I wouldn't have wasted a lot of years teaching and going to instructor schools for nothing ;)

Let that be a lesson to ya...;)

[DallasBronco]

Wait a minute...I'm a firearms instructor with a DD214 and a youtube account. If I'd have only known, I wouldn't have wasted a lot of years teaching and going to instructor schools for nothing ;)
Lucky. I've got a DD214, but no youtube channel. I guess I'll have to keep my day job...:D

[Ed L]

16520

If Erika of Cory and Erika had played her cards right she might used the publicity to launch a career in feature dancing.

Who knows, if she gave private dances I might have taken her up on it and paid her extra money to have her call me Chris Costa.

Me: "Call me Chris Costa."

Her: "Oh yeah, babe. You are so Chris Costa."

This post is distasteful and sexist. I have no evidence to suggest that she would be interested in such types of lurid activities, and I don't even know if she can dance.

[Eli]

I've got a DD214...it just doesn't have my name on it.
When my Mom and Dad moved out of state, they asked me to put some of their important papers in my safe. The closest my Dad ever got to secret squirrel stuff, was when he tried to do the Para-Rescue thing. Once they told him that he would have to be able to swim long distances, he changed his mind. His response was, "Swim? Why'n the hell do you thing I joined the Air Force?!"

[Joe in PNG]

Hey, A DD214 is more than a lot of guys posing as Delta Recon Seals passing out really bad guncounter advice have.

[Rex G]

I like this modest resume': "...I hurt someone's feelings once." (The character Sam, played by Robert De Niro, in the movie _Ronin_, and I could not verify, short of watching the movie again, whether it was "someone's" or "somebody's.")

Another certainty: I do not know the color of the boathouse at Hereford.

[PPGMD]

Two- because the only thing you need to be a "gun instructor" is a big mouth ,this sort of stolen valor is and has always been a problem in the business. Mile Lamb lied about his military affiliation,but so do half the gun counter employees and customers at any given moment in America. If I took everyone who claimed military affiliation at face value who came through my range,I'd have more special ops clients then the nearest bar to Ft Bragg.

So moral of the story is,in our cynical world you're better off dropping $2,000 and flying cross country to train with an established name then taking a local class from "Spec Ops Steve " who might know how to shoot,but says his 29 year old self was in "The Teams" in Laos.

Actually the biggest issue is that people are "OMG SEAL" or "OMG Green Beret" or whatnot, instead of considering do you really need to go to a class taught by a tier one operator? I've been a number of classes from a wide variety of instructors. It is very rare for instructors to actually teach anything that truly involves tactics. With some exceptions the most tactical thing taught is shooting around barricades or from supine and for a lot of instructors that might be their advanced class. Do you need to be a high speed operator to teach that?

I think instead people need to get over themselves, and realize that 90% of shooting classes are the fundamentals. And you don't need military/LE experience let alone tier one experience to teach those. Instead look for people that are well qualified at shooting, regardless of what their resume says. A guy that is fixes laser printers during the week, but has a GM card might be a better instructor and shooter than a guy who claims to be from a tier one unit with a dozen combat deployments (be it earned or unearned).

Many of the unique skills that the tier one guys bring to the table are things that they won't teach except to MIL/LE, like Paul Howe's target identification course, or courses that are often only applicable to small audience outside of MIL/LE, like team tactics courses.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

If Erika of Cory and Erika had played her cards right she might used the publicity to launch a career in feature dancing.

Who knows, if she gave private dances I might have taken her up on it and paid her extra money to have her call me Chris Costa.

Me: "Call me Chris Costa."

Her: "Oh yeah, babe. You are so Chris Costa."

This post is distasteful and sexist. I have no evidence to suggest that she would be interested in such types of lurid activities, and I don't even know if she can dance.
A) did you just assume zher gender?

B) isn't implying that there's something wrong with a career in the sex trade just slut-shaming?



I've occasionally thought that if Erin and I had slightly different personalities, we could totally have played Cory and Erica, as adapted for the screen by Salvador Dali. Unfortunately, my strangely detached nature and Erin's very strong preference for not being a performer killed that project when it would have been relevant, and now I'm too old to get an A-list role.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Ed L]

A) did you just assume zher gender?

From all of the pictures of her and the way she portrays herself, I assume she is a she. I don't have the DNA tests to back it up.


B) isn't implying that there's something wrong with a career in the sex trade just slut-shaming?

I didn't imply that there was anything wrong with a career in the sex trade, just pre-emptively admitting that my post was distasteful.

The only reason I made that comment is because they deliberately set her up as tantalizing draw with her short shorts, tight t-shirts, and things ling footage of her butt jiggling while she fired a 50 cal Barret from prone. To me this makes the her fare game for criticism and mockery.


I've occasionally thought that if Erin and I had slightly different personalities, we could totally have played Cory and Erica, as adapted for the screen by Salvador Dali. Unfortunately, my strangely detached nature and Erin's very strong preference for not being a performer killed that project when it would have been relevant, and now I'm too old to get an A-list role.

I think you could have a go of it, especially if you presented unique and engaging on screen personalities. As long as you did not make spurious military or background claims.

That was a stupid thing in both Cory and Mike Lamb's cases.

For Cory, the military background was a minor part to contributing to his success, but once he was outed and kept changing his story and downsizing his claims, he was toast.

In the case of Mike Lamb, he had a Marine background and had seen some combat action. But of course it is not as impressive sounding as being a Marine Recon. I am not even sure how he got away with it while on active duty since commanders and admin people would see his paperwork and might know others who had served in the unit that he claimed to have been in.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm...I'm just kidding about A and B, I'm just applying the ever-increasing and ridiculous social justice standards to your post.

[DallasBronco]

I've got a DD214...it just doesn't have my name on it.
When my Mom and Dad moved out of state, they asked me to put some of their important papers in my safe. The closest my Dad ever got to secret squirrel stuff, was when he tried to do the Para-Rescue thing. Once they told him that he would have to be able to swim long distances, he changed his mind. His response was, "Swim? Why'n the hell do you thing I joined the Air Force?!"

When I got to Lackland for Basic Training, we often saw big, barrel-chested guys running in groups of 4 carrying telephone poles. Those were Pararescue guys. They took volunteers while I was in Basic to try out, but when they said part of the try-out was a 1000m swim, I stayed out. Me and water ain't friends...

[blues]

When I got to Lackland for Basic Training, we often saw big, barrel-chested guys running in groups of 4 carrying telephone poles. Those were Pararescue guys. They took volunteers while I was in Basic to try out, but when they said part of the try-out was a 1000m swim, I stayed out. Me and water ain't friends...

My buddy was a PJ. He was probably 150 lbs soaking wet and I never even noticed if he had a chest. Nonetheless...he was the real thing.
Nice to know that not everyone has to look the part and that mindset and gumption go a long way toward showing a man's (or woman's) true mettle.

[DallasBronco]

My buddy was a PJ. He was probably 150 lbs soaking wet and I never even noticed if he had a chest. Nonetheless...he was the real thing.
Nice to know that not everyone has to look the part and that mindset and gumption go a long way toward showing a man's (or woman's) true mettle.

That's wild, 'cause everyone I met was pretty big. Even some retired Vietnam-era PJ's that I met were still pretty big. I claim no face-shooter background myself. I was an aircraft mechanic on the A-10, B-52, and C-5 through my time in. I also spent a 3-year stint as a tank commander in the Tx Army Natl Guard.

[heyscooter]

All the Js I've ever met were solid dudes, yet most of them I ran into were not towering massive muscle-y types. It's that much more oxygen you gotta suck in!

[Tamara]

I think you could have a go of it, especially if you presented unique and engaging on screen personalities.

Given the success of Nutnfancy, that doesn't seem to be a requirement for YouTube gun stardom...

[El Cid]

That's wild, 'cause everyone I met was pretty big. Even some retired Vietnam-era PJ's that I met were still pretty big. I claim no face-shooter background myself. I was an aircraft mechanic on the A-10, B-52, and C-5 through my time in. I also spent a 3-year stint as a tank commander in the Tx Army Natl Guard.

I spent most of my 11 years in the Air Force working with PJ's/CRO's. Like the CCT's, SEAL's, Force, and Army SF, they come in all shapes and sizes. It's their mental toughness that makes them who they are. Hell one guy I worked with was a PJ, then commissioned and became an HH-60 driver. When we created the CRO in 2001 he was one of the first three. Completely average stature and yet when he graduated from Indoc he was the only person left in his class.

[Ed L]

Given the success of Nutnfancy, that doesn't seem to be a requirement for YouTube gun stardom...

Uhh, yeah. But I find most of the youtube commenters, Nutnfancy including, like nails scratching on a chalkboard.

[Tamara]

Uhh, yeah. But I find most of the youtube commenters, Nutnfancy including, like nails scratching on a chalkboard.

Apparently your view of their appeal (which echoes mine, FWIW) appears to interfere with having jillions of YouTube followers not a whit. The masses are asses.