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JodyH
12-23-2011, 10:01 AM
Now that Todd has installed and tested his CT laser grips, let's talk lasers.

I'm a huge fan of the laser after one good low light practice session comparing light/laser vs. irons.
I immediately bought a laser/light combination for every nightstand pistol in the house.
My P2000 and my wife's Glock 19 both have Viridian C5L green laser, 100 lumen LED light combinations.
My Ruger LCP pocket BUG has a Crimson Trace Laserguard.
My S&W J frame pocket BUG has Crimson Trace Lasergrips.

Our club held a low light night match a few months ago and my wife shot her Glock/C5L.
The laser advantage was obvious and significant. She actually shot faster and more accurately under the poor low light conditions than she normally does in our day matches.
The advantage was so great that there was a LOT of interest in her C5L after the match.

As soon as I can find a low profile laser and AIWB holster combination I'll be adding one to my CCW as well.
The advantage a laser gives under low light and from sub-optimal shooting positions is impressive.

JodyH
12-23-2011, 10:04 AM
P2000 w/C5L
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMAG0014.jpg

P2000/C5L, 10 shots at 25 yards with <.5 splits, total darkness.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMAG0008.jpg

JDM
12-23-2011, 10:24 AM
I'll be watching this thread closely; I'm about to pull the trigger on some laser grips for my M&P.

Jody, talk to Rhome @ DGL, he just made me an IWB#4 for an M&P/TRL-1. Its big, but usable. I bet he could make something very comfortable for the P2K/C5L.

JodyH
12-23-2011, 10:28 AM
I'm going to wait on Crimson Trace's new compact rail mounted laser, it looks like it would be perfect for a CCW gun.

VolGrad
12-23-2011, 10:39 AM
I'm going to wait on Crimson Trace's new compact rail mounted laser, it looks like it would be perfect for a CCW gun.

As much as this would suck WRT orderng all new holsters I might like this better as well. I have tried both the old rear activated and the new front activated GLOCK CT grips and hated the feel of both. I simply can't get comfortable with either and sold them both off.

This combined with the fact I found myself to be a laser chaser rather than using my sights (when I still could) turned me off.

JodyH
12-23-2011, 10:44 AM
I don't know of any instructors who have laser specific training, I wish I could find one.
It took me a few range sessions to develop good habits with lasers and avoid the bad habits.
The biggest thing is to remember that the irons are primary and the laser is a supplement.
It's hard to do because the pretty red light brings out the kitten in all of us.

ToddG
12-23-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm a huge fan of the laser after one good low light practice session comparing light/laser vs. irons.

I've been a believer since the mid to late 90s thanks primarily to the prodding of our own Dr. David Armstrong. David arranged for me to get a T&E set for my Beretta from Crimson Trace. I had a heck of a time zeroing them (perfect sight picture syndrome, which is very common with the laser) but then took the grips to a 2-day pistol class. At the end of the class not only was I impressed, but the instructors -- most of whom teased me for having a laser at the beginning of day 1 -- all wanted to know how to get a set.

The two biggest benefits in my mind are:


Ability to aim the gun precisely and quickly even when target focused. Under stress, it's very hard to overcome the natural tendency to look at your threat instead of your front sight. I practice a lot more than most folks and even for me, today, there are times in a FOF scenario when I'll break shots without a front sight focus... not on purpose, but because Byron screaming around a corner unexpectedly with gun a-blazin' just sort of demands visual attention.

Intimidation factor. While I would never count on it, both CTC and many LE agencies issuing/authorizing lasers (including the U.S. Military) have numerous documented cases of BGs who did not respond to guns pointed at them but immediately ceased hostility when a red dot appeared on their chests. It's been suggested that many BGs, whether career criminals or veteran soldiers, get guns pointed and even fired at them all the time... obviously they survived so the fear of a gun is small. But no one mistakes the seriousness of a red dot over his heart. Again I am not suggesting this is a sure thing or even something I consider as part of my "tactics." But if it just happens to save me the trouble and expense of having to shoot someone, it pays for the CTCs a hundred times over.



Our club held a low light night match a few months ago and my wife shot her Glock/C5L.
The laser advantage was obvious and significant. She actually shot faster and more accurately under the poor low light conditions than she normally does in our day matches.

The Range in NC (host of the Carolina Cup and the 2012 IDPA Nationals) runs a low light match every year. I showed up one year with a laser-equipped gun and aced it. The next year, the Match Director light heartedly designed some stages that were intentionally designed to screw with the laser, like red-shirted targets. Still aced it.


I don't know of any instructors who have laser specific training, I wish I could find one.

The whole point of the CTC Master Trainer Summit was to build a "training module" for laser equipped pistols. A few of the guys present did go on to teach some classes but the whole thing petered out as support from CTC waned. The other issue, considering that most people have red lasers, is the need to perform the training in something other than bright daylight.


The biggest thing is to remember that the irons are primary and the laser is a supplement.
It's hard to do because the pretty red light brings out the kitten in all of us.

That's a great way to say it. While I'll be concentrating a lot on the laser over the next few weeks, my normal practice regimen was about 20% laser and 80% iron shooting.

JodyH
12-23-2011, 11:23 AM
IMO the green laser is magnitudes better at handgun ranges than the red lasers.
Our night match proved this, with everyone who was watching agreeing.
The green was much easier to see against all backgrounds.
The downside of the green laser is... it's easier to see. It was much easier to trace the green laser back to the source, especially when smoke and dust was in the air.
Light/laser discipline would be much more important with the green laser.

The Viridian also has a larger dot than the Crimson Trace.
While not an issue at handgun ranges, the CT is noticeably more precise past 35 yards or so.
Green lasers eat batteries like candy, you MUST keep a fresh battery in your green laser.
Once the C5L gives you the low battery warning, you have maybe 1 minute before it's dead.
I change batteries in my C5L every other month at a minimum depending on how many times I activate it during dry fire practice.
I'll change batteries at the end of every low light practice session.

ToddG
12-23-2011, 11:25 AM
I'd actually have no problem changing batteries often on a green CTC, but at least back when I was involved with them the company thought it was marketing suicide.

jetfire
12-23-2011, 11:29 AM
Put me down in the "huge fan of lasers" camp as well. I was incredibly skeptical of lasers on guns until I had the chance to attend a CTC sponsored writer's gig taught by another Todd; we played with lasers in one of the Blackwater shoot houses and I was sold. Since then, I've had lasers on all my "serious" guns, and the only reason I don't have a laser on my Gen4 Glock 21 is they don't make one for it.

The real "holy smokes" moment for me and lasers was using them in total darkness at Gunsite last year. I'd put them on all my guns, but IDPA thinks a laser is cheating.

Tamara
12-23-2011, 11:40 AM
Rather than write this all over again: "See the dot. Be the dot. Shoot the dot. (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2008/08/see-dot-be-dot-shoot-dot.html)"

Plus, it's fun to say "layzurr" in a Dr. Evil voice.

Lon
12-23-2011, 12:48 PM
My agency has been issuing/buying lasers for its officers since 2000. We use both the CTC grips and the Lasermax guide rod. Having carried and shot the CTC grips for years, I am a firm believer in them. I don't know how many bad guys I've pointed them at. Todd's statement #2 is very accurate. I found that it was more beneficial to shine the laser on the BGs nose/face vs. the chest. At least initially. Sometimes they miss the dot on the chest. Hard to miss a dot on your nose.

For a couple years, I routinely shot my duty gun (P226R w/x200, DG switch and CTC) in our weekly indoor matches. I'd kill all the lights and shoot in total darkness. I had no trouble beating/keeping up with open class shooters. I think the DG switch CTC combo is the ultimate low light system.

When I first started using the grips, I was definitely slower with the laser. Once I learned the trick to using the laser, my speed and accuracy took off. For me, the trick to using the laser to its fullest was NOT to bring the gun all the way up to my eyes. More like up to my chin and the focus on the target while tracking the dot.

The Lasermax guide rods, while somewhat useful, is not near the product that the CTC grips are. They have shown themselves useful for certain situations, like working with ballistic shields. But overall they are fairly useless in a fast evolving stressful situation, from what I have seen.

Unfortunately, most shooters won't spend the time necessary to learn to REALLY use them well. They see them as a crutch. I know I am constantly reminding my guys at work what Jody stated about the laser being a supplement.

Wondering Beard
12-23-2011, 01:00 PM
I haven't been able to like the CTC lasers, the position of the module interferes too much with my grip, especially when shooting with the left hand.

The light/laser combos like the X400 seem to place the laser too low.

Is there another laser system that is as reliable as my Glocks, close to the boreline but doesn't mess with my grip?

GJM
12-23-2011, 01:53 PM
Now that Todd has installed and tested his CT laser grips, let's talk lasers.

I'm a huge fan of the laser after one good low light practice session comparing light/laser vs. irons.
I immediately bought a laser/light combination for every nightstand pistol in the house.
My P2000 and my wife's Glock 19 both have Viridian C5L green laser, 100 lumen LED light combinations.
My Ruger LCP pocket BUG has a Crimson Trace Laserguard.
My S&W J frame pocket BUG has Crimson Trace Lasergrips.

Our club held a low light night match a few months ago and my wife shot her Glock/C5L.
The laser advantage was obvious and significant. She actually shot faster and more accurately under the poor low light conditions than she normally does in our day matches.
The advantage was so great that there was a LOT of interest in her C5L after the match.

As soon as I can find a low profile laser and AIWB holster combination I'll be adding one to my CCW as well.
The advantage a laser gives under low light and from sub-optimal shooting positions is impressive.

Jody, why C5L instead of X5L? If they made products for your pistol, would you prefer the CT M&P style laser with a DG remote light tape?

JodyH
12-23-2011, 02:14 PM
Jody, why C5L instead of X5L? If they made products for your pistol, would you prefer the CT M&P style laser with a DG remote light tape?
I initially bought the C5L because I wanted one light/laser that would work on all my pistols including my P2000Sk, and the C5L is the only one that works on the Sk.
When I travel I often only take one gun and it's usually the Sk.
I carry it for CCW then attach the C5L and insert a X-grip 13 round P2000 magazine for hotel night stand duty.

After using the C5L for a while I decided it's the perfect size for a handgun. The X5L has more battery life and a brighter light but it's also pretty large.
To me the C5L was just a better all around combination.

I'd buy a backstrap integrated CT laser in a heartbeat if they made one for the H&K's.

GJM
12-23-2011, 02:18 PM
If Surefire redesigned the X400 with the laser above the light, instead of below it, with a green laser, and their DG remote tape, wouldn't that be a home run?

JodyH
12-23-2011, 02:29 PM
I'm not a fan of tape switches or grip switches on laser/light combinations.
Light discipline is hard to maintain with grip pressure. I get too many light "AD's".
For a light/laser combination I prefer a rocker switch or a button I can activate with my indexed trigger finger.
For a laser only setup I think the CT grip buttons are the way to go, accidental laser activation isn't nearly as bad as a 100+ lumen white light AD.

Zhurdan
12-23-2011, 02:40 PM
Und how vood you like to arm the lazer, el doctere?

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Frau_Farbissina.jpg

I tried a few out, but that's been years ago when they were bulky and unreliable. Those Veridian lasers look pretty interesting in that they are fairly compact.

Byron
12-23-2011, 02:55 PM
...there are times in a FOF scenario when I'll break shots without a front sight focus... not on purpose, but because Byron screaming around a corner unexpectedly with gun a-blazin' just sort of demands visual attention.
Ha! AMIS definitely gave me a deeper appreciation for lasers than ever before (and I already had a healthy respect for them before that). From my observation in that context, there isn't even a comparison between the hit rates of laser users and non-users, especially as lighting conditions worsen. Since my first time through AMIS, my bedside Glock always wears a laser now. In my case, it's an old TLR-2. I like the ability to momentarily activate the laser/light at the same time; leaving it off while moving through a structure, but turning it on as soon as I identify a threat.

David Armstrong
12-25-2011, 02:25 PM
I've been a believer since the mid to late 90s thanks primarily to the prodding of our own Dr. David Armstrong. David arranged for me to get a T&E set for my Beretta from Crimson Trace.
And in all fairness I'd certainly bad-mouthed lasers plenty on my own prior to actually getting some training/experience with them. And that explains much of my cynicism and contrariness, incidents like the laser where you hear a lot of talk, but then you find someone who actually has training or experience in whatever the subject is and you find out that all that "common wisdom" might have been pretty common but it wasn't based on wisdom!:rolleyes:

matman
12-25-2011, 04:34 PM
I've got a good deal more experience with the issued LA-5 laser on my rifle than on my pistols. I just recently picked up a CT Laser Grip for my Glock 19. While it certainly increases my grip surface it does provide some great instant feedback. I'm fairly new to using it (all dry fire so far) but its becoming a very interesting item to me.

I have seen the lasers on my rifles in 'combat zones' Cause folks stop in their tracks. It's yonna either piss em' off or scare them! Either way it gets things going in the direction you might want! IR lasers are like the fingers of God! I'm a huge fan of them and think if your using NVGs you MUST have an IR laser.

GJM
12-28-2011, 10:08 PM
Todd, just watched the video from the match. Not sure how much you were using the laser, but care to comment if you did, and what you thought?

ToddG
12-28-2011, 10:37 PM
I did not look at my front sight once during the entire match.

I used laser-equipped guns pretty religiously for about ten years, so it wasn't a case of forming a new opinion on their usefulness.

Mr_White
12-29-2011, 05:11 PM
I did not look at my front sight once during the entire match.

I used laser-equipped guns pretty religiously for about ten years, so it wasn't a case of forming a new opinion on their usefulness.

Sorry about the other post in the wrong thread.

Do you have any sense of how much better you think you shot in the KSTG match, using a laser, than you might have without one? I realize that's very subjective and imprecise. Just looking for your sense of it.

I ask because, just judging from the videos (often a poor vantage point) of you shooting with a laser at the KSTG match, and of videos of you shooting with iron sights, it subjectively looks to me like a lot of difference.

ToddG
12-30-2011, 09:26 AM
Years ago I did some serious side-by-side comparisons and the laser was a little faster to the first shot (from the draw or reload), a little faster in splits usually, and much faster target to target. I believe the last is because you don't have to worry about the whole eyes/target/gun visual shenanigans ... you just look at what you want to hit and when the laser shows up, you press the trigger.

I was hoping to get to the range today but now it looks like circumstances are going to keep me from repeating the test for another week or so.

It's also possible that some of the perceived difference is due to the camera angle. For example, my total for the three FAST runs was 14.58, which is certainly good for me but not a personal record, either. (though I did have a trigger hitch on the second run which probably cost me a second or so)

JV_
12-30-2011, 10:01 AM
I was hoping to get to the range today but now it looks like circumstances are going to keep me from repeating the test for another week or so.Don't feel too bad, it was like a Saturday.

GJM
12-30-2011, 07:45 PM
Laser question. I spent some time this afternoon shooting an M&P 40 FS with the CT laser. Among other things, I did some Bill drills. The first one I did with the laser on, I couldn't quite decide whether to look at the front sight or laser (it was visible on the target at that distance)) and as a result I looked about half at each, which did nothing for my accuracy.

I absolutely get the laser in the dark, and from odd positions, but is there a description for best practice with the laser in daylight conditions?

ToddG
12-30-2011, 07:49 PM
It's pretty straightforward once you work through it.

When you start your draw or presentation from ready or whatever, where are you looking? At the target.
If a clear bright dot appears on the target, my vision stays on the target.
If a clear bright dot does not appear on the target, my vision moves to my front sight at the same time it would if I didn't have a laser on the gun to begin with.

I don't hunt for the laser. There have been plenty of times when observers saw the laser but I didn't see it soon enough or clearly enough to overcome my habit of going to the front sight.

GJM
12-30-2011, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the quick response. My problem was slightly different -- I started with the front sight, but caught the laser bouncing in recoil in my peripheral vision, and that drew my eyes partially from the front sight but not fully to the laser. Do you ever transition from front sight to laser, or vice versa, during a shot string such as a Bill drill?

ToddG
12-30-2011, 08:14 PM
Not on purpose and not that I'm aware of or can recall. If I switch targets, though, the process begins again. So it's certainly possible to shoot one target with irons, then the next with the laser.

JodyH
12-30-2011, 08:30 PM
My irons are the primary, but if the laser gets there first I'll use it.
Note: I only have a laser on my nightstand pistol so the laser is usually MUCH more visible than the sights inside the house.

Moshjath
12-31-2011, 12:44 AM
For those of yall with experience carrying a CTC equipped Glock, how easy is it to have an accidental activation of the laser? And a follow on question to that, how visible is a laser through a shirt if you do somehow accidentally activated it? Thanks!

ToddG
12-31-2011, 12:00 PM
For those of yall with experience carrying a CTC equipped Glock, how easy is it to have an accidental activation of the laser? And a follow on question to that, how visible is a laser through a shirt if you do somehow accidentally activated it? Thanks!

You mean accidental activation in the holster? I've never noticed it. As for whether it would shine through, that depends completely on your shirt.

YVK
12-31-2011, 12:58 PM
When you start your draw or presentation from ready or whatever, where are you looking? At the target.
If a clear bright dot appears on the target, my vision stays on the target.
If a clear bright dot does not appear on the target, my vision moves to my front sight at the same time it would if I didn't have a laser on the gun to begin with.



For me, the dot never appears on target until my finger goes on trigger simply because my trigger finger placed along the frame blocks the laser beam. Since my finger doesn't touch the trigger until I get some semblance of sight picture, it is always front sight for me. This is with 1911; don't know how it would've worked with Glock or M&P.

LOKNLOD
12-31-2011, 02:10 PM
I believe the last is because you don't have to worry about the whole eyes/target/gun visual shenanigans ... you just look at what you want to hit and when the laser shows up, you press the trigger.

Without much direct experience with either, it sounds like some of the benefits, and limitations, of a laser seem very similar to those of an RDS. Does anyone out there have enough experience with both to compare the two?

YVK
12-31-2011, 02:28 PM
Without much direct experience with either, it sounds like some of the benefits, and limitations, of a laser seem very similar to those of an RDS. Does anyone out there have enough experience with both to compare the two?

I have some experience with laser and limited experience with RDS, but there is a radical difference, IMO. Biggest benefit of laser is that you see the dot irrespective of aiming position - from retention, from compressed ready, behind the back, whatever. RDS, you need well-defined presentation and index, the visual window for the dot with RDS is small.
The commonality, of course, is that both get away from sight alignment and allow for target focus.
I personally find laser is easier to learn than RDS; regardless of that, I find laser more useful than RDS.

LOKNLOD
12-31-2011, 04:50 PM
I have some experience with laser and limited experience with RDS, but there is a radical difference, IMO. Biggest benefit of laser is that you see the dot irrespective of aiming position - from retention, from compressed ready, behind the back, whatever. RDS, you need well-defined presentation and index, the visual window for the dot with RDS is small.
The commonality, of course, is that both get away from sight alignment and allow for target focus.
I personally find laser is easier to learn than RDS; regardless of that, I find laser more useful than RDS.

Thanks YVK. I was thinking that with either, the dot is not going to be on the target until the gun is already pretty well aligned anyway, but missing the point that the RDS still requires alignment with the eye as well. The benefits from non-standard positions or conditions make a lot of sense.

jlw
12-31-2011, 05:06 PM
I tried a set of Crimson Trace grips for a little while, and I had the same problem with them that I have with red dot sights: I have trouble seeing the dot.

Granted, I never tried them in a true low light situation. In instances where I could see the laser, I was much slower than when using regular sights. I don't discount their use for other people in the least.

BN
12-31-2011, 06:06 PM
I recently put a set of LG-417 grips on a gen 3 G-17. It certainly made the grip bigger. :)

At first I thought I was slower with the laser, but with some time I think I'll be faster when I can see the laser.

It's a little confusing when the laser is glowing on the target when I'm using the iron sights.

vkosty
01-01-2012, 12:12 AM
I tried laser/light combos before breifly. More out of curiocity than anything else.
I did always want to own CT sights, but could not justify the expense. Like with a bunch of other things, Todd's input pushed the balance in the "buy" direction.
So, I got meself a CT for my carry SigPro.
The quality is great, fits my hand just sa well as a stock medium grip.
Now, the interesting (to me) part is that to keep that laser activated I really need to keep the squeeze on. The moment I relax the grip even a bit, the laser goes off.
Definitely helps my focus on the tight grip.
Will try shooting it at a range in the next few days.
Too bad there are no CT grips for HKs. The LaserGuard does not expiry me.

mnealtx
01-01-2012, 12:18 AM
Too bad there are no CT grips for HKs. The LaserGuard does not expiry me.

While I can't speak for the HK, I have a laserguard on a Ruger LCP, which is a pretty snappy little beast.

JodyH
01-01-2012, 10:28 AM
I'm impatiently waiting for a set of P30 integrated laser grips from CT.

BN
01-01-2012, 09:11 PM
The laser on my G-17 performed very well today. I shot an informal local match. It was later in the afternoon when I shot. It was a dark, over cast day. The laser showed up very well and I didn't use my iron sights at all. :) I'm liking the laser more each time I use it.

CCT125US
01-02-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm impatiently waiting for a set of P30 integrated laser grips from CT.

Have you contacted CTC customer service with this request? I sent them an email asking where they were at with this design and am waiting for a reply. I have a set for my G26 that is great. My only complaint is that there is one true distance in which the laser is spot on, other than that it gets you in the area. But that is the trade of when the laser is offset and dropped from the bore line. The models that are below the bore are much better for target shooting or games IMO, but make holster selection challenging.

JohnN
01-02-2012, 08:27 PM
I want to stick one of CT's new universal rail lasers on my P30 and see how it works. Twin activation switches in front of the trigger guard will limit the ability to use it with one hand.

mnealtx
01-02-2012, 10:36 PM
I want to stick one of CT's new universal rail lasers on my P30 and see how it works. Twin activation switches in front of the trigger guard will limit the ability to use it with one hand.

You mean the CMR-201? Going by the pics, it looks like the switch is ambi and not requiring both sides be pressed to activate, though I could be wrong.

turbolag23
01-03-2012, 02:23 PM
i havent liked the CT grips available for glocks but do have CT grips on my 442. i recently purchased a x300 for the glock for low light situations.

jetfire
01-03-2012, 02:25 PM
I'm impatiently waiting for a set of P30 integrated laser grips from CT.

When I talked to them about this last year they said it was a while off. The problem that they're running in to is the way the grip panels of the P30 are constructed makes it difficult to integrate the laser diode and battery while retaining the form factor of the gun.

jetfire
01-03-2012, 02:57 PM
You engineering people are frightening.

Sparks2112
01-03-2012, 03:22 PM
I wish I was going to SHOT this year. I don't mean to sound boastful, but I looked into this last year and I'm pretty sure I figured out an elegant solution to that problem. If I was going to be there, I'd be happy to meet with them and discuss my idea.

Wonder how much money it would take to bastardize an existing ct grip and make it work with a p30 grip panel...

Twobuh
01-04-2012, 08:42 PM
Does anyone else find that they lower the pistol from a normal sight picture when shooting with a laser? I've had fantastic results with accuracy, but the position of my gun seems awkward because I want to lower the pistol about 4" from what would otherwise be a normal sight picture. It's like my brain wants an uncluttered view of the target/spot so I start pushing the gun down and out of the way. I'm shooting an HK45c with a Viridian C5L.

Lon
01-04-2012, 09:32 PM
Does anyone else find that they lower the pistol from a normal sight picture when shooting with a laser? I've had fantastic results with accuracy, but the position of my gun seems awkward because I want to lower the pistol about 4" from what would otherwise be a normal sight picture. It's like my brain wants an uncluttered view of the target/spot so I start pushing the gun down and out of the way. I'm shooting an HK45c with a Viridian C5L.

I think that's the way it should be used. When I shoot my CTC grips I never bring the pistol up to my eyes.

ToddG
01-04-2012, 10:22 PM
I bring the gun up almost but not quite as high. Basically, I'm looking over the top of the gun.

TGS
01-04-2012, 10:59 PM
Does anyone else find that they lower the pistol from a normal sight picture when shooting with a laser? I've had fantastic results with accuracy, but the position of my gun seems awkward because I want to lower the pistol about 4" from what would otherwise be a normal sight picture. It's like my brain wants an uncluttered view of the target/spot so I start pushing the gun down and out of the way. I'm shooting an HK45c with a Viridian C5L.

This is the main reason I can't stand lasers. It just feels so damn awkward, and unless I take a ridiculous amount of time on the trigger pull I end up throwing shots everywhere. Having to do that is like the planets changing alignment and throwing the Earth upside down to me.

Twobuh
01-05-2012, 01:10 AM
I've had the C5L for about six weeks (8 range trips and about 800 rounds with the laser). In parallel, most of my shooting has been done with an identical HK45c without a laser.

My first range trip with the C5L was embarrassing. Everyone wanted to watch the guy with the green laser and 5 minutes of dry fire exercises did not leave me well prepared. Sighting in the laser was a breeze with slow deliberate trigger pulls, but the subsequent drills were chaos. I couldn't figure out if I should be looking at the front sight or the laser and the resulting shots filled the target from edge to edge. Normally this would have been an appropriate time for some good jokes at my expense, but you could tell the poor guys watching me were too confused to poke fun.

The breakthrough for me came on my second trip to the range when I stopped looking at the sights and focused only on the target. I'm a little concerned with how low I'm holding the gun now, but with some more range time I should be able to find a more balanced position.

JohnN
01-15-2012, 01:31 PM
Just got this new Crimson Trace Universal rail laser installed thought I would take a few pictures.

460461462463464

Haven't been able to try it out yet but since there are few options for this platform this looks promising.

For once my timing worked out, the Indy 1500 gunshow was in session this weekend and I was able to have Raven make a holster for the combo.

As you can see the laser can be activated by the trigger finger or the offhand thumb. I assumed the laser was momentary but the laser stays on until deactivated by touching the pad again.

So far, I like it.

willowofwisp
01-16-2012, 09:38 PM
Just got this new Crimson Trace Universal rail laser installed thought I would take a few pictures.

460461462463464

Haven't been able to try it out yet but since there are few options for this platform this looks promising.

For once my timing worked out, the Indy 1500 gunshow was in session this weekend and I was able to have Raven make a holster for the combo.

As you can see the laser can be activated by the trigger finger or the offhand thumb. I assumed the laser was momentary but the laser stays on until deactivated by touching the pad again.

So far, I like it.

JohnN

I was at the Indy 1500 this weekend too! I was actually one of the guys who brought them cowbell haha.

troydobe
02-01-2012, 09:29 PM
Anyone with connections at CTC have any info on plans/availability (or lack of) for a LaserGUARD for M&P fullsize or compact? They already have Laserlight and Lasergrip.

Up1911Fan
02-01-2012, 11:07 PM
Why would they build a laserguard for a gun they can build an integral grip for? I wish they'd get around to making a pair the the M&P45c. Have them on my LCP and LCR. Plan on a pair of the Gen4 models.

tremiles
02-01-2012, 11:32 PM
Why would they build a laserguard for a gun they can build an integral grip for? I wish they'd get around to making a pair the the M&P45c. Have them on my LCP and LCR. Plan on a pair of the Gen4 models.

Left handed shooters may have difficulty adjusting their grip so the beam isn't obstructed.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Up1911Fan
02-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Highly doubt CT is gonna bring one out for the small percentage of lefties who may have a problem with them.

turbolag23
02-02-2012, 04:32 PM
Highly doubt CT is gonna bring one out for the small percentage of lefties who may have a problem with them.

always with the discrimination against lefties! haha
i only have CT grips on my jframe, as a back up gun i usually shoot it right handed so i'm not sure if i even have an issue with obstructing the beam.

troydobe
02-03-2012, 07:31 AM
Highly doubt CT is gonna bring one out for the small percentage of lefties who may have a problem with them.

There must be a business case for it, cause they do it for other models, see XD(m) below -so why not the M&P?


LG-448 Laserguard® for Springfield Armory XD and XD(m)Price: $219.00

LG-487 Lasergrips® for Springfield Armory XD(m)Price: $329.00



So, if we're really gonnna know the answer, we really need someone with connections into CTC to get some info.

mnealtx
02-03-2012, 08:48 AM
There must be a business case for it, cause they do it for other models, see XD(m) below -so why not the M&P?


LG-448 Laserguard® for Springfield Armory XD and XD(m)Price: $219.00

LG-487 Lasergrips® for Springfield Armory XD(m)Price: $329.00



So, if we're really gonnna know the answer, we really need someone with connections into CTC to get some info.

The 487 isn't a LH laser from what I can see from the website.

A centermount like the laserguard (your 448 mentioned above) or the universal rail laser removes the LH/RH issue.

ToddG
02-06-2012, 06:53 PM
CTC has introduced a universal rail laser. I suspect that will be their answer to most of the "laserguard" requests in the future.

cdunn
05-28-2012, 06:43 AM
yesterday i bought a used crimson trace for my m&p 9c,the last laser I tried was several years ago on a 1911pd.I got rid of it because I felt it was too slick.hopefully I'll have a little better luck with this one.anyone have a stippled laser grip that they are using?

LHS
05-29-2012, 02:30 AM
I've been a laser convert for about 10 years. After a low-light class where I managed to dominate over the iron-sighted folks, I was sold.

That said, lasers are not a replacement for irons. They're great for shooting in low light where you can't see your sights. They're great for shooting from asymmetric positions where you can't line the sights up between you and the target. In multi-good-guy environments, I think they're great for letting everyone know who's shooting at what (bad guy has no dot on him? Someone probably ought to put one on him.).

The red ones (I haven't tried any of the green lasers, only the red-beam CT grips) are hard to see in bright sunlight. I shot a match about two weeks ago, and forgot to turn off my laser. I shot three stages before the RO noticed it (and he had to point it out to me, because I was behind the irons and couldn't see the dot), and that was on a target @ 3 yards. Bright AZ sunlight just washes out the red dot something fierce.

Lasers are another tool in the box. They are a niche item, but in their niche, they rule pretty much unchallenged. Even with very little time on one, I was able to shoot significantly faster and more accurately at night than I could with tritium irons. On a small gun with crappy sights, like a J-frame, the lasers are even more important. For one thing, the LG-405 is the best set of grips I've ever used on a J-frame, even without the laser. Add in the glowing red dot to overcome the crappy iron sights, and it's a no-brainer for me. I prefer the frontstrap-activated models, as they prevent laser NDs better than the others. I used to get NDs with my older 302s (side-activated) when carrying IWB. The newer 402 is superior in that respect, but I liked the softer material in the 302s better.

Both my primary carry guns (Beretta 92G and a J-frame) sport CT grips. I wish they made CT grips for the compact 92.

Zhurdan
06-19-2012, 12:20 PM
Decided to order a Veridian C5L. Found a good deal at Botach but we all probably know how that ended up. After two weeks, I get an email stating they are backordered and have no idea as to when they'll be in stock. So, I called and asked how long they've been out of stock... THREE MONTHS!

Interestingly enough, I ordered one thru Newegg.com (computer geek heaven if you don't know). A bit more, but they say they have availability and will ship within 3 days. I guess we'll see.

More interested in the light than the laser at this point due to past experience with lasers back when they were the "new thing". Hopefully it'll add a bit of functionality. At the very least, it'll be a great tool for dry fire practice.

krazykiddjoe
07-14-2012, 12:45 AM
Being full time LEO, I have an issued ALS holster, and I'm a Lefty, does anyone know if a LG-617 or the LG-417 will work with an ALS DUTY holster for a lefty?
I would love for a reversed laser grip for a Glock or M&P Thumb Safety compatible solution, I don't want a rail mount universal... especially for a glock as I use a X300 with DG switch as my primary handgun light. I would block the beam shooting with two hands but feel the benefits of a laser would outweigh that significantly shooting SHO/WHO

Right now I have switched to a Thumb Safety M&P 9mm for a carry gun due to AIWB (aware of the accuracy issues). I would love to have a Light Guard and a laser of some sorts.

Viridian C5L Green/Light Combo - Still looks too bulky for carry esp aiwb
LaserMax Green with a X-300 below it. (would literally cost more than the gun) and be even bulkier.....

I would also consider a laser-guard with the front activation for a full-size M&P and just use a non mounted light as I carry my surefire E-series with me religiously. I just don't like the "universal rail mount laser"
Better would be a Laser/Light Guard that would have a 100 lumen light and a laser in one slimline package with front activation.


BUT, if that gadget would get released I may be rocking a Glock again AIWB.... then its light-guard and laser-grips and I'll just deal with blocking the beam shooting freestyle.

End of rant, end of a hellacious week. End of shift....

KKJ- Going to bed.