Home Defense : Hollow Point vs FMJ *HANDGUNS ONLY*

[Thepig]

I came across this video of a trauma surgeon talking about this exact topic and what he has experienced. He provides evidence and goes over how people die from injuries from years of working in trauma.

If you don't have time to watch the video, I can try to sum it up, but I HIGHLY suggest you watch the video if you are currently using Hallow Point rounds for home defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

Penetration > Expansion is what he sums up, and if you did not see the title, this is for handguns. Need not worry if you are shooting rifles.

[Unobtanium]

I came across this video of a trauma surgeon talking about this exact topic and what he has experienced. He provides evidence and goes over how people die from injuries from years of working in trauma.

If you don't have time to watch the video, I can try to sum it up, but I HIGHLY suggest you watch the video if you are currently using Hallow Point rounds for home defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

Penetration > Expansion is what he sums up, and if you did not see the title, this is for handguns. Need not worry if you are shooting rifles.

I like that most of the solid JHP hits I've seen still have bullets on the XRAY film (lodged in the spine or whatever), or they don't go far (perps clothing) when they DO exit. Why have secondary hazards without necessity? Pick a round that does 12-16" in gel and call it good, IMO.

[Unobtanium]

The most often cited reason people use FMJ's is because "JHP's can fail". Well...no shit. Nothing is infallible. But when it fails...it's still the best an FMJ could ever hope to be. (This is provided you aren't using something like a frangible or 125gr non-bonded JHP in a .357 magnum or something).

[Tamara]

Penetration > Expansion is what he sums up...

This is why the list above prioritizes rounds the way it does.

I have JHPs in my Glock. They will penetrate just fine.

[breakingtime91]

Modern JHP rounds (gold dots/ hst) penetrate to the recommended standards for incapacitation. FMJs suck agaianst people and they also will over penetrate the building you occupy. I know your a new member and I'm trying to say this in a nice way, spend more time reading then starting threads. A great place to start for this topic is in the ammunition category, Doc Roberts has a lot of great info in there.

[Peally]

Ball ammo sucks, there's a reason everyone everywhere uses JHPs.

[TGS]

..but I HIGHLY suggest you watch the video if you are currently using Hallow Point rounds for home defense.

And I HIGHLY suggest you read what has been shared for Dr Gary K Roberts, possibly the worlds foremost terminal ballistics expert since the passing of Martin L Fackler.

There's a science to this, it turns out......and what works is known.

[Default.mp3]

I mostly skipped through the video, but did not find anything that would lead to the recommendation of FMJ use over JHP use in handguns for home defense. Overall, the information presented seemed to correspond quite well with what Dr. Roberts has posted, actually, in terms of the mechanisms of injury for firearms, at least those that allow for medical intervention (which rules out CNS hits).

[Totem Polar]

And I HIGHLY suggest you read what has been shared for Dr Gary K Roberts...

This. As an amateur shooter at best, I sort of like the fact that p-f has softened a bit and allows for more grist for the mill talk among the population, at least for many topics. But this ammo thing? I think GKR has the discussion pretty much sewn up. To be clear, I am always open to new evidence as it comes up, but I'll probably put more priority on the same if the evidence also happens to come from GKR.

[cclaxton]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

[1slow]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

I would like to see some testing on that. In the car's front windshields that I have shot with FMJ in class there has been deflection. Once the glass is broken a lot not much deflection.

[Default.mp3]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
CodyMy experiences in the car shoot demo in Will Petty's VCQB showed that the opposite was true, with FMJ deflecting more than duty rounds, when shooting through the laminated glass of a front windshield. Bullet mass played a far bigger role in reducing deflection.

[45dotACP]

If you don't have time to watch the video, I can try to sum it up, but I HIGHLY suggest you watch the video if you are currently using Hallow Point rounds for home defense.

Well...hallow point rounds I only use for defense against Nosferatu and other various and sundry revenants...

As for the others...well you can have both...that's why any of the rounds tested and verified as effective in both penetration and expansion have been kindly collated by Dr. Gary Roberts in his list.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[blues]

Well...hallow point rounds I only use for defense against Nosferatu and other various and sundry revenants...

https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/166/166866.jpg

Hallowed be thy aim

[DocGKR]

This topic and this video have been previously discussed, as noted in multiple comments here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18515-Let-s-talk-about-handgun-FMJ-effectiveness

Dr. Andreas Grabinsky is an anesthesiologist whose very short 2011 lecture to EMT's at Harborview Medical Center is linked in the first post above; it is OK (you can see where he uses some of our data in the presentation), but it also contains a number of errors.

FMJ handgun projectiles typically deflect more against automobile windshields than barrier blind JHP.

[TGS]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

I'm curious what agency he works for.

We do protection. Like.......a lot, and what he's stating is at odds with both our practices and testing.

[Thepig]

I thought he was saying that ballistics gel does not do a good enough job. The thickness of the person and bones add in factors that decreased HP penetrating power. I don't remember mentioning JHP's at all, I am glad you use a better alternative than HP's because that is what we are discussing. Which kinda proves what he was saying anyways, since you guys know fully that JHP's are better than HP's, says something about HP vs FMJ.

He also went on to say that pistols RARELY ever go though people, they are likely not very wide buy have wirey frames. Full penetration of the body is not exactly what I would be worried about, missing shots like more of a big deal than worrying about something that never happens.

Is there any data about handgun penetration, and not people thinking it was penetration. He said frequently the person gets shot in the front and then turns around, getting shot in the back. Giving the illusion of an exit wound.

How many instances that have hard data that a pistol fired round penetrated the target and went on to hurt an innocent bystander?

[nycnoob]

How many instances that have hard data that a pistol fired round penetrated the target and went on to hurt an innocent bystander?

Please do more research before posting on this topic, really it
has been discussed to death several times here.

To answer your question NYPD switched to Hollow points after the
Amadou Diallo fiasco. It is generally assumed that the
ricochet of the over penetrating police bullets caused the
officers to think that they were under fire and thus they added
more fire (41 bullets in all) into the unarmed man.


The change was highly controversial in NYC:
(Headline from NY Post) COMMISH ORDERS MORE VICIOUS BULLETS ;
MAKES SWITCH TO HOLLOW POINTS IN AFTERMATH OF SLAY

but the fact that they have not switched back, and as far as I know
all Police departments use them as well, should be a big clue.



Is there any data about handgun penetration,


Yes, Doc created the data and it is used in the lecture you provided

[Malamute]

... I don't remember mentioning JHP's at all, I am glad you use a better alternative than HP's because that is what we are discussing. Which kinda proves what he was saying anyways, since you guys know fully that JHP's are better than HP's, says something about HP vs FMJ...



Not sure what the distinction is you are making between a hollow point (HP) and a jacketed hollow point (JHP)? Could you help clarify please?

[Thepig]

I know its generally assumed, but there are other people saying LE hits 1 out of 5 pistol shots.

I was lost in thought when I typed that sentence out, I was trying to refer to actual full penetration through bodies (proven exit wound), going on and hitting another target.

I've read quite a bit of data on this and most people with the data are saying the same thing. You should not be worried about the bullet exiting a person and be more focused on hitting your shots, specially with the horrible accuracy most LE's have in actual situations, not range.


Not sure what the distinction is you are making between a hollow point (HP) and a jacketed hollow point (JHP)? Could you help clarify please?

It's a completely different round.

[BehindBlueI's]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

Your friend is full of shit.

[Malamute]

It's a completely different round.


Could you clarify that? I'm not sure what the difference is, and haven't heard there was a difference in the context of the general conversation as regards semi-auto pistol ammo.

[Default.mp3]

I thought he was saying that ballistics gel does not do a good enough job. The thickness of the person and bones add in factors that decreased HP penetrating power.Ballistics gel is used as a repeatable medium, and does not match to human issue penetration 1:1. Beyond that, mass of the person decreases the penetrating power of all rounds, and bones would deflect the best of barrier-blind duty handgun ammo.



Not sure what the distinction is you are making between a hollow point (HP) and a jacketed hollow point (JHP)? Could you help clarify please?
It's a completely different round.While there certainly are non-jacketed hollow point bullets out there, their use in factory duty ammo is essentially non-existent, especially when ignoring revolver calibers.

[KhanRad]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

Somehow we federals are given more credit than we disserve. From my personal car shoot experiences, round nosed FMJ bullets tend to deflect quite a bit. My opinion is that he rounded projectile has more of a tendency to rapidly initiate a deflection rather than the sharp leading edge of a JHP. Now, if your Agent friend is using flat point .40S&W or .357sig, then yes I can see a "possible" benefit to using the FMJ as it will retain the same leading edge as a JHP, and be more durable with a solid projectile.

That being said, I have seen no measurable benefit to using any form of FMJ in car shoots. We have shot up usually two cars every few years and we have brought in about a half dozen windshields to lay over the car for additional shots once the previous windshield is shattered beyond usefulness.

[Thepig]

Somehow we federals are given more credit than we disserve. From my personal car shoot experiences, round nosed FMJ bullets tend to deflect quite a bit. My opinion is that he rounded projectile has more of a tendency to rapidly initiate a deflection rather than the sharp leading edge of a JHP. Now, if your Agent friend is using flat point .40S&W or .357sig, then yes I can see a "possible" benefit to using the FMJ as it will retain the same leading edge as a JHP, and be more durable with a solid projectile.

That being said, I have seen no measurable benefit to using any form of FMJ in car shoots. We have shot up usually two cars every few years and we have brought in about a half dozen windshields to lay over the car for additional shots once the previous windshield is shattered beyond usefulness.

Wouldn't the angle of shot have a lot to do with how it deflects more than ammo type?

[Default.mp3]

Wouldn't the angle of shot have a lot to do with how it deflects more than ammo type?Both will affect the amount of deflection. Thus, shooting out of a Jeep with it's very flat windshield with minimal rake will have less deflection than a shooting out of a Ferrari 458, all things being equal.

Really, it's my understanding that one should simply shoot a hole out in the windshield, then shoot through said hole, rather than constantly worrying about deflection. After all, the deflection can be very large; IIRC, shooting out a Volvo sedan, using 115 gr. FMJ, with a target about 4 yards in front of the car, when aiming at the pelvic girdle, the bullets were impacting in the head.

[KhanRad]

Wouldn't the angle of shot have a lot to do with how it deflects more than ammo type?

If your angle is consistently the same, then there must be other factors as play. When firing from the same bench rest position, this is that we noticed. Dr. Roberts has mentioned that he has observed similar results in his testing.

One thing that I have noticed is that smaller calibers tend to show less deflection too(9mm vs .40 vs .45). Maybe due to the fast that the smaller projectile has less "barrier" to defeat before passing through? Bonded 5.56 has virtually no point of aim deflection.

[Malamute]

While there certainly are non-jacketed hollow point bullets out there, their use in factory duty ammo is essentially non-existent, especially when ignoring revolver calibers.

That's my understanding. I was curious why PIG was making such a distinction in the context of the discussion, and exactly what he thought the difference was. I believe most people use the terms interchangeably, particularly when discussing something specific like automatic pistol loads.

[Totem Polar]

Both will affect the amount of deflection. Thus, shooting out of a Jeep with it's very flat windshield with minimal rake will have less deflection than a shooting out of a Ferrari 458, all things being equal.

Really, it's my understanding that one should simply shoot a hole out in the windshield, then shoot through said hole, rather than constantly worrying about deflection...
Not that I'm any expert, especially with guys like Doc upthread, but this is my understanding as well—and the guys (note plural) that have told me the same thing would know. At any rate, I've had the opportunity to punch that first, fresh hole though a windshield from inside (against targets, not tangos) and it's a moot point very quickly if you're hitting the trigger on something like a G17 at speed. You're shooting through a port almost instantly.

[Joe in PNG]

Now, I have heard the advise to use FMJ over JHP when it comes to the classic "mouse gun" calibers such as the .25acp, .32acp, and .380acp. In those cases, the expanding bullets don't penetrate, and the penetrating bullets don't do a lot of damage.

The other recommendation is to use wadcutters in snub 38's, as the short barrel may not give enough velocity for the typical JHP to expand reliably.

Otherwise, best to use good JHP off the list.

[KhanRad]

Not that I'm any expert, especially with guys like Doc upthread, but this is my understanding as well—and the guys (note plural) that have told me the same thing would know. At any rate, I've had the opportunity to punch that first, fresh hole though a windshield from inside (against targets, not tangos) and it's a moot point very quickly if you're hitting the trigger on something like a G17 at speed. You're shooting through a port almost instantly.

Shooting out of a vehicle, absolutely. In most cases you start shooting through previous holes and deflection issues are then of little concern. Deflection and projectile performance are primarily a concern when you are shooting into a vehicle. Usually you are firing from a range that prevents you from putting rounds through the same hole(especially under stress), so most of your rounds are making new holes in the glass and each round must defeat the windshield while retaining good performance.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think with modern rounds, the alternating HP, FMJ is silly. In auto class and shooting auto glass with Dave Spaulding, Critical Duty zipped right through windshield and side glass. Does alternation imply that you have to fire 4 rounds for a 'double' tap - reducing your engagement capabilities in half?

We fired out of cars through the same hole and could hit targets over the hood fairly well. Shooting straight into the windshields, the targets were hit pretty accurately.

[PNWTO]

At the risk of sounding like a dick, why are we having this conversation in 2017? I really can't add more than that without rehashing so much info that has been addressed here in the past.

FMJ is killy, yep. JHP is more killy, double yep.

[Trooper224]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

Your fed friend needs to get out from behind his desk and shoot more auto glass with fmj's, because he's talking out of his ass.

[BehindBlueI's]

then yes I can see a "possible" benefit to using the FMJ as it will retain the same leading edge as a JHP, and be more durable with a solid projectile.


FMJ is not a solid projectile. It's jacketed, which is the "J" in FMJ. I've not seen every FMJ out there go through auto glass, but the ones I have seen shed the jacket way easier than bonded hollowpoints, and then the soft interior lead fragments. I've seen the same body shot with different guns through the same glass when a young man decided to rip off the dope man and the dope man's buddies lit him up as he got into his car and started to drive away. Two shooters standing nearly next to each other shooting into the same vehicle hitting the same meat target, both with FMJ bullets but in two different calibers. .40 did hold together better than the 9mm, but both turned into sand blasters. Having seen our issued JHP go through car doors and windows, no contest. The JHP held together way better.

[El Cid]

At the risk of sounding like a dick, why are we having this conversation in 2017? I really can't add more than that without rehashing so much info that has been addressed here in the past.

FMJ is killy, yep. JHP is more killy, double yep.

Because we got trolled.

[BehindBlueI's]

Your fed friend needs to get out from behind his desk and shoot more auto glass with fmj's, because he's talking out of his ass.

..and probably outside agency policy and will get his ass in a sling should he actually have to shoot someone. If I were a betting man, I'd bet (s)he's Uniformed Secret Service.

[Pennzoil]

I think with modern rounds, the alternating HP, FMJ is silly. In auto class and shooting auto glass with Dave Spaulding, Critical Duty zipped right through windshield and side glass. Does alternation imply that you have to fire 4 rounds for a 'double' tap - reducing your engagement capabilities in half?

We fired out of cars through the same hole and could hit targets over the hood fairly well. Shooting straight into the windshields, the targets were hit pretty accurately.

I'm far from an expert but testing different rounds in my carry gun at the time on various cars we also found Critical Duty to perform excellent on various cars. Most common bonded JHP did good when we were testing them. Including passing through both doors closed (on a steel car) with minimal if any deviation. I have video of it somewhere.

Here is the first few rounds through a Saturn windshield with 135+p critical duty. Despite windshield angle the critical duty passed right through.
15995


Also find it hard to believe we are talking about FMJ vs bonded JHP but everyones at different levels.

[JustOneGun]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody


We had our Federal Tactical move about an inch or two when shot into a car with the target in the front seat. Obviously how far it moves when shooting out of the car depends on where your target is. We taught that it's harder to miss with a crown vic caliber bullet as a better alternative to shooting out of the car. LOL. I'm not sure who your friend works for, but at my old stomping grounds if it all worked out I would get days off for using fmj. If it didn't work out then indictment is a pretty good bet.

[HCM]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

The claim of FMJ not deflecting through glass is incorrect as noted many times above. The alternating ammo of types in a magazine aka "candy caning" is another piece of bad old gun lore like reverse loaded wadcutters in .38 and treating bullet wounds with tampons.

Along these lines. it's not the 1970's anymore. I don't know of a federal agency which does not issue duty ammunition and mandate the use of the issued ammunition.

For several years, I ran a firearms program for 600 federal agents, the vast majority of whom are competent with their issued equipment but have little to no depth of knowledge outside their issues, which is a polite way of saying like other cops they know jack shit about ballistics.

[Edster]

Thus, shooting out of a Jeep with it's very flat windshield with minimal rake will have less deflection than a shooting out of a Ferrari 458, all things being equal.


This has been my experience with shooting Ferraris.






Ok... not really.

[BehindBlueI's]

At the risk of sounding like a dick, why are we having this conversation in 2017?

I think it was Mas who told me something along the lines of "Every year X-thousand people buy their first gun, what's well trodden ground for you is brand new to them." I probably dicked it up, but that was the gist of it. Plus he had a real number for "X".

[KhanRad]

FMJ is not a solid projectile. It's jacketed, which is the "J" in FMJ. I've not seen every FMJ out there go through auto glass, but the ones I have seen shed the jacket way easier than bonded hollowpoints, and then the soft interior lead fragments. I've seen the same body shot with different guns through the same glass when a young man decided to rip off the dope man and the dope man's buddies lit him up as he got into his car and started to drive away. Two shooters standing nearly next to each other shooting into the same vehicle hitting the same meat target, both with FMJ bullets but in two different calibers. .40 did hold together better than the 9mm, but both turned into sand blasters. Having seen our issued JHP go through car doors and windows, no contest. The JHP held together way better.

I was thinking something more along the lines of the Speer TMJ bullet. Yes, standard FMJ projectiles are not "solid". I mean that the front of the bullet lacks a cavity and is generically "solid" by comparison.

[Tamara]

At the risk of sounding like a dick, why are we having this conversation in 2017? I really can't add more than that without rehashing so much info that has been addressed here in the past.

The amount of time the average person spends actively involved in a hobby is apparently something like three years. In 2020 there will be a whole new crop of people ready for me to rewrite "Revolver vs. Auto: Which Rules on the Street?"

[BehindBlueI's]

The amount of time the average person spends actively involved in a hobby is apparently something like three years. In 2020 there will be a whole new crop of people ready for me to rewrite "Revolver vs. Auto: Which Rules on the Street?"

Is your j-frame enough? Glock vs 1911!!!

[cclaxton]

Somehow we federals are given more credit than we disserve. From my personal car shoot experiences, round nosed FMJ bullets tend to deflect quite a bit. My opinion is that he rounded projectile has more of a tendency to rapidly initiate a deflection rather than the sharp leading edge of a JHP. Now, if your Agent friend is using flat point .40S&W or .357sig, then yes I can see a "possible" benefit to using the FMJ as it will retain the same leading edge as a JHP, and be more durable with a solid projectile.

That being said, I have seen no measurable benefit to using any form of FMJ in car shoots. We have shot up usually two cars every few years and we have brought in about a half dozen windshields to lay over the car for additional shots once the previous windshield is shattered beyond usefulness.
Most of his experience is with 357Sig, so maybe that's where it comes from. I will ask.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

Is your j-frame enough? Glock vs 1911!!!

you know I've always felt that 9mm vs .45 was a question just begging to be answered by a 105 page thread about nothing.

[Sigfan26]

you know I've always felt that 9mm vs .45 was a question just begging to be answered by a 105 page thread about nothing.

The "Seinfeld" of PF threads


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

Most of his experience is with 357Sig, so maybe that's where it comes from. I will ask.

Don't bother, it came from his rectal data bank. Like BBI I've shot pistol caliber bullets into cars and FMJ gets shredded by windshield glass. The bullet cores still hit and would have done something, but between that and deflection it was a crap shoot. If your friend is doing this mix and match deal instead of just carrying bonded JHP, he's actually reducing his ability to get hits through glass.

[JustOneGun]

The amount of time the average person spends actively involved in a hobby is apparently something like three years. In 2020 there will be a whole new crop of people ready for me to rewrite "Revolver vs. Auto: Which Rules on the Street?"



LOL... "Point shooting or sighted fire? Why target focused shooting is your life saving middle ground." God I should write for the gun rags...

[Chuck Haggard]

I know its generally assumed, but there are other people saying LE hits 1 out of 5 pistol shots.
.

That assumption is based on the NYPD SOP9 reports, to say all LE shoots to that level is bullshit. Some might shoot worse, many do better, often much better. Making wide and sweeping statements based on bro science mythology is a poor practice.

Not directed at you, just an editorial statement.

[Chuck Haggard]

A good friend of mine who is a Federal Agent says there is one advantage to FMJ in self-defense or VIP protection: They go straight through a window/windshield whereas hollow points will change trajectory wildly and tumble the bullet. He likes to load every other round HP-FMJ-HP-FMJ. He has also tried a spare mag with FMJ, but he says stuff happens way to fast to consider a mag change when a windshield shot is needed. But then again he is doing VIP protection most of the time, so the situation is a bit different than normal. But may not be a bad idea in some cases.
Cody

FMJs tend to shed jackets and perform rather poorly against auto glass, in both fragmentation and deflection. Even in the larger calibers this is true. Part of a murder case work-up I was involved in showed that the suspect's .45acp 230gr FMJs fragmented going through side window glass, peppering the victim and the dash of the vehicle she was in.

The practice of carrying ball ammo for auto glass/shooting into vehicles was common in the days before good modern bonded or controlled expansion bullets were invented post 1986. Even as late as the early '90s I personally heard an LAPD SWAT member teaching this as their SOP for their .45s, and it was bad info then.

Mixing ammo in your mags is pure fuckery. Unless one is shooting a belt fed gun and mixing things like ball and tracers it's just stupid as hell.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Claude and Jim Wilson have engaged the revolver vs. semi issue again - https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/author/tacticalprofessor/

As far as recycling, I was told by someone in the wedding magazine industry that they have a 3 year cycle on articles as that is the attention span of engaged women and the tailing off of new brides. I supposed 9mm vs 45 for that cheatin' SOB who nailed my maid of honor has to be discussed every once in awhile.

Wait - how about alternative bird shot, buck shot and slugs in the HD shotgun and racking it for the sound effect?

[DocGKR]

As noted, LE hit ratio's vary. For example, according to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002. The highest LE hit ratio's we have seen reported from large agencies have been in the 50-60% range, the lowest were in the 8-12% range....

[Chuck Haggard]

The last I talked to the guys in OKC they were hitting in the 75% range. They take shooting very seriously down there.

At my old job we kept things well above 50% generally, typically in the 75% range. I could cherry pick a bad run we had in a particular 18 month period where we kept 100% hits on target tho.

[DocGKR]

Yes indeed: one can always find higher hit ratios when selectively looking at smaller data sets--I know of a mid-size California agency that had close to 100% hit ratios for several years over dozens of shootings, but with a change in agency "leadership", a decreased training budget, and newer less experienced personnel, that hit ratio substantially decreased so that the total aggregate hit ratio over a decade of time is now less than 50%...

[octagon]

Yes indeed: one can always find higher hit ratios when selectively looking at smaller data sets--I know of a mid-size California agency that had close to 100% hit ratios for several years over dozens of shootings, but with a change in agency "leadership", a decreased training budget, and newer less experienced personnel, that hit ratio substantially decreased so that the total aggregate hit ratio over a decade of time is now less than 50%...

Yes this or a high round count shooting that skews the overall average. We had around 10 shootings where 1-7 rounds were fired and a hit ratio of 70%+ was the trend. Then we had an incident where the officer fired 31 rounds with 6 hits when the suspect was behind cover or partial cover as some rounds penetrated and others did not. Depending on how you look at it it can mess with the average hit ratio. Kind of how Uniform Crime Reports of LEOKA for 2001 always had the * for 9/11 related deaths.

[cclaxton]

FMJs tend to shed jackets and perform rather poorly against auto glass, in both fragmentation and deflection. Even in the larger calibers this is true. Part of a murder case work-up I was involved in showed that the suspect's .45acp 230gr FMJs fragmented going through side window glass, peppering the victim and the dash of the vehicle she was in.

The practice of carrying ball ammo for auto glass/shooting into vehicles was common in the days before good modern bonded or controlled expansion bullets were invented post 1986. Even as late as the early '90s I personally heard an LAPD SWAT member teaching this as their SOP for their .45s, and it was bad into then.

Mixing ammo in your mags is pure fuckery. Unless one is shooting a belt fed gun and mixing things like ball and tracers it's just stupid as hell.
Thanks, Chuck. I am convinced. I will ask my friend if he has changed his mind.
Cody

[nycnoob]

Last night I was listening to an interesting podcast about "the
Half Life of Fact". The idea is that new things are always being
discovered and many old ideas and facts are being invalidated by
experiment. So it is true that many things you learned in
highschool are no longer true, though they were considered facts
at the time you learned them. So one needs to make a consious
effort to keep up with the data, and it can be jarring if you go
back and look at a subject that you have not examined since
childhood and find that it appears that nearly ALL of it has
changed. In the subjects you follow regularly you may not notice
the incremental changes. The halflife of facts varies by subject
but is like 9-15 years for most subjects.


099 - The Half Life of Facts (https://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart/099-the-half-life-of-facts)

https://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart (https://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart)

[LorenzoS]

Threads like this are why I appreciate Gary Roberts' duty ammo post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo)so much. It's saved me from wasted time and distraction over several years now.

[Thepig]

That's all besides the point.

Even if your hit ratio is 90%, the 10% of misses is still more dangerous than HANDGUN bullets piercing through the body completely and injuring another person.

This is propaganda by sales companies. It makes 0 sense to worry and use this to defend the use of HP/JHP's. If they do cause more internal injuries than a FMJ, then so be it.. It's counter intuitive for the other argument though, in much way this is..

Example :

People prefer to drive their kids to school for safety reasons. Kidnapping or what ever they want to use justifying it.

In reality, the kids are FAR SAFER walking to school, lethal car accidents are way more likely to happen on your way to school than a low probability event like getting kidnapped. Yet, the irrational fears of the lowest probable event take over and the highest chance events are ignored.

This example highlights the "Muh bullet penetration" perfectly.

You are worried about the lower than 50% chance of hitting the target, then the even lower chance of hitting them in an area where it would actually penetrate, then add the even lower chance of having somebody standing directly behind the exit wound to getting hurt. You do this at the same time as ignoring abhorrently high miss ratio's which are FAR FAR FAR FAR more likely to cause injury or ricochet. They found a pretty good sales tactic if people are still using it to justify the reasons to use JHP, when the ONLY reason you should be using them is to stop people faster and more effective.

From the massive amounts of experience allocated on this board, I don't have much of a choice but to believe what you say about the stopping power of JHP over FMJ, I do however think you guys should stop using the meme of piecing bodies for any of the reasons you use them. You can even take it one step further.

Let's say LE around the world all had the same Hit/Miss ratio, 50%. This is extremely above standard, and the problem still rears it's ugly head. Missing half of your shots is ALWAYS going to have higher risks for people you aren't aiming for and should be the #1 reason to be worried about when using handguns.

[rjohnson4405]

That's all besides the point...

Curious to whom you're talking to here. You seem to be arguing with a group of people that don't exist on this forum. The #1 criteria for DocGKR's list (the standard this forum uses) is penetration.

Once that is covered why not use a bullet that will expand. And if you do miss 50% of your shots, why double that number by using a bullet that over-penetrates your target?

That being said, DocGKR consistently warns that over-penetration in normal duty rounds is exaggerated.

Frankly, I don't care if people use the right reasons for carrying quality ammo as long as they do.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Thepig,

There were a number of innocent civilians and also other police officers hit by bullets that had passed through an offender when NYPD was issuing FMJ 9mm, and this was the impetus for them to change to a JHP. You're information is not factual.

Additionally, misses with FMJ are far more likely to ricochet than JHPs, as they are less likely to deform upon impact.

[BehindBlueI's]

That's stupid fucking logic. Misses are dangerous so it's ok if hits are also dangerous. When one thing is dangerous, you don't stop mitigating other risks.

[Peally]

Groooooooooooan.

[Peally]

That's stupid fucking logic.

Sums up the thread.

[scw2]

I don't get your logic, and your driving example is flawed. Using FMJ for self defense is like willingly driving your kids to school in a Pinto with your seatbelts off, when you have a wide variety of modern vehicles you could drive. Why would you willingly choose a less effective round if you get a hit, which at the same time is also more likely to over penetrate and increase the odds of a negative outcome?

Also, I'm willing to guess walking could be less safe than driving b/c you're still sharing roads with the poor drivers out there, but you no longer have a metal cage to protect you.

[Kyle Reese]

Hell, I'm convinced. I'm going to stop using quality, vetted loads from DocGKR's list now and switch to ball ammo for daily carry. Anyone with me?

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[psalms144.1]

I didn't even read this whole thread - just the first couple of posts and skipped to this page. After reading thepig's commentary, all I can say is BRING ON PFESTIVUS! Anyway to accelerate the countdown, or have a special mid-year event?

[Default.mp3]

That's all besides the point.

Even if your hit ratio is 90%, the 10% of misses is still more dangerous than HANDGUN bullets piercing through the body completely and injuring another person.

This is propaganda by sales companies. It makes 0 sense to worry and use this to defend the use of HP/JHP's.I'm not following your argument here. What do you lose by using JHP-type rounds compared to FMJ-type rounds in this context? A miss is a miss, no? Using your numbers, you'll have a 10% miss regardless of what type of bullet you're using, and the issue of overpenetration is well-documented, so... yeah.


Example :

People prefer to drive their kids to school for safety reasons. Kidnapping or what ever they want to use justifying it.

In reality, the kids are FAR SAFER walking to school, lethal car accidents are way more likely to happen on your way to school than a low probability event like getting kidnapped. Yet, the irrational fears of the lowest probable event take over and the highest chance events are ignored.Citation needed. My cursory Google search shows the articles reporting this are very naïve in their analysis. While the possibility of a child dying in MVA is much higher than kidnapping, that means nothing, since we don't know the rate of fatal MVAs when only going to school, rather than in general, nor is there any obvious data on the rate of kidnapping of children on their way to/from school. Nor do we have any idea on the how auto-peds would be affected; the rate is quite low now, but that may very well be an issue of the lack of children walking/biking to school. Etc. Many of the factors are interlinked, so a naïve interpretation of the data doesn't mean much.

You are worried about the lower than 50% chance of hitting the target, then the even lower chance of hitting them in an area where it would actually penetrate, then add the even lower chance of having somebody standing directly behind the exit wound to getting hurt. You do this at the same time as ignoring abhorrently high miss ratio's which are FAR FAR FAR FAR more likely to cause injury or ricochet. They found a pretty good sales tactic if people are still using it to justify the reasons to use JHP, when the ONLY reason you should be using them is to stop people faster and more effective.Even if it's a benefit that's not often realized, it's still a benefit without any other performance cost, so why not capitalize on it?


From the massive amounts of experience allocated on this board, I don't have much of a choice but to believe what you say about the stopping power of JHP over FMJ, I do however think you guys should stop using the meme of piecing bodies for any of the reasons you use them.Holy shit, someone actually used "meme" in its original context. Mad props.

Seriously, guys, a picture with a pithy/witty/funny caption on it is not a fucking meme, it's just a Goddamn picture.


Let's say LE around the world all had the same Hit/Miss ratio, 50%. This is extremely above standard, and the problem still rears it's ugly head. Missing half of your shots is ALWAYS going to have higher risks for people you aren't aiming for and should be the #1 reason to be worried about when using handguns.While missing your shots is indeed a very prominent worry, that seems to be a concern that is agnostic to your bullet choice in handguns.

[El Cid]

I didn't even read this whole thread - just the first couple of posts and skipped to this page. After reading thepig's commentary, all I can say is BRING ON PFESTIVUS! Anyway to accelerate the countdown, or have a special mid-year event?

Or maybe admin folks can give people like this a troll avatar so we know to move on to the next thread? Lol!

[DocGKR]

"There were a number of innocent civilians and also other police officers hit by bullets that had passed through an offender when NYPD was issuing FMJ 9mm, and this was the impetus for them to change to a JHP. You're information is not factual.

Additionally, misses with FMJ are far more likely to ricochet than JHPs, as they are less likely to deform upon impact."

The comments above are accurate and correct.

[Joe in PNG]

And let us not forget that pretty much all FMJ is made for the practice market, and is not subjected to the same amount of QC as the good defensive loads are.

And don't forget that pretty much all FMJ tends to be loaded pretty weak compared to the good defensive loads.

[Hambo]

That's all besides the point.

Even if your hitting them in an area where it would actually penetrate which are FAR FAR FAR FAR more likely to cause injury, From the massive amounts of piecing bodies around the world, is ALWAYS going to have higher risks.

What is it we're talking about?

[BehindBlueI's]

The comments above are accurate and correct.

Doc, I'm sure you're better suited to speak to this than me, but my understanding is one of the advantages of JHP is "barrier blind" performance. Ball ammo has no "brakes" and the only way to increase penetration is to increase velocity. If it will go through a car door and still have sufficient penetration, it will wildly over penetrate if there is no intermediate barrier. JHP has the ability to get through the barrier and only start to "brake" once it's in the body and the petals start to expand. You can build in some level of desired performance in the body that's consistent with or without the intermediate barrier.

[Tamara]

I do however think you guys should stop using the meme of piecing bodies for any of the reasons you use them.

16032

I can't even make out what you are trying to say there.

[blues]

16032

I can't even make out what you are trying to say there.

Piecing bodies...sounds like maybe when you have them in stitches...literally or figuratively I dunno. :rolleyes:

[Trooper224]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/dd/ddea4928c72aabef6151ba2b0566520252eee8717a38a30ec0 1f1153c873e0e8.jpg

[Trooper224]

I came across this video of a trauma surgeon talking about this exact topic and what he has experienced. He provides evidence and goes over how people die from injuries from years of working in trauma.

If you don't have time to watch the video, I can try to sum it up, but I HIGHLY suggest you watch the video if you are currently using Hallow Point rounds for home defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

Penetration > Expansion is what he sums up, and if you did not see the title, this is for handguns. Need not worry if you are shooting rifles.

http://stoptrophyhuntingnow.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/message-bullshit-nice-hypothesis-shame-if-someone-tested-it.jpg?w=550&h=413

[NerdAlert]

A new person joins conversation with people they don't know. His introduction is "Hi! I'm an awesome shooter and here's what I know!" This doesn't get the result he's after, so he chimes in with "This is why EVERYTHING you THINK you know about terminal ballistics is wrong." Problem is, the group he walked into has cops with real experience shooting people, USPSA GM/M class shooters, and one of the foremost nationally recognized authorities on terminal ballistics. This kind of attitude can only happen on line, because if someone walked up to a group like this anywhere else they would see the strange looks and eyes rolling with every response. Or worse.

I am not a USPSA GM, face shooter, or a recognized authority in wound ballistics. I am smart enough to listen to those that have done the work and learn from them. It's not wrong to question with an open mind. Coming in hot with all your own opinions about how every one else is wrong generally isn't the way to go. Just my thoughts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blues]

A new person joins conversation with people they don't know. His introduction is "Hi! I'm an awesome shooter and here's what I know!" This doesn't get the result he's after, so he chimes in with "This is why EVERYTHING you THINK you know about terminal ballistics is wrong." Problem is, the group he walked into has cops with real experience shooting people, USPSA GM/M class shooters, and one of the foremost nationally recognized authorities on terminal ballistics. This kind of attitude can only happen on line, because if someone walked up to a group like this anywhere else they would see the strange looks and eyes rolling with every response. Or worse.

I am not a USPSA GM, or a recognized authority in wound ballistics, but I'm smart enough to listen to those that have done the work and learn from them. It's not wrong to question with an open mind. Coming in hot with all your own opinions about how every one else is wrong generally isn't the way to go. Just my thoughts.

This (http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-educational-beatdown) comes to mind...


https://youtu.be/eMISraE-B5E

[SSGN_Doc]

Wow. I don't suppose it is possible to unread some of this.

It seems that Thepig took information to extremes, and has failed to heed the advice of actually reading the source material that everyone has directed him to. The lecturer in the video cites some of the very source material that he is being referred to.

I don't know that even Dr. Roberts has stated that modern bonded jacket hollow point rounds would fully eliminate over penetration, but part of their design is to mitigate or reduce the likelihood of over penetration. The body of Dr. Robert's work indicates that adequate penetration is a primary feature that is desired out of a duty or defensive load. Rapid blood loss is a more reliable and reproducable physiologic factor in rapid incapacitation, and expansion along with penetration are used in conjunction to make this rapid blood loss more likely.
The data reaches back decades. standards have been set based on case studies as well a correlation to ballistic gel performance to create a repeatable method of quantifying what makes a god defensive or duty load. Thepig seems to have missed this fact tat police and agencies are not picking their rounds based on gel tests without field data that relates to what is to be expected in gel tests.

Having seen people who have been shot with handguns using FMJ and non expanding lead rounds I can say that the wounds are actually pretty unimpressive. Flesh gets pushed out of the way and practically shuts itself and reduces blood loss. Fragmenting high velocity rifle rounds and expanding bullets do more rapid and permanent damage resulting in more rapid blood loss and rapid incapacitation. Those are the facts I've seen demonstrated. I have also seen FMJ rounds from 9mm and .45 ACP pistols penetrate completely and I have seen them stop in approximately 8-10 inches. (One .45 ACP round was fired from approximately 1-2 feet according to witness accounts. Penetrated one buttock and stopped in the adjacent buttock. Gun grab on a guard from a prisoner who cleared the holster moved laterally and fired the shot with his hands behind his back, putting the round diagonally through the guards buttocks. Not much bleeding, but a lot of swearing in Haitian Creole, as this was on a deployment to that lovely side of that island I would rather forget.) I'm thinking Haitian LE may not get great weapon retention training.

I may only be wasting some breath, (or the digital internet forum equivalent, in type), trying to summarize some of the points I think the OP just glossed over but, since I read his posts and can't unread them I felt compelled to write my take, if only to vent.

I may have missed some points which Dr. Roberts has taken the time and effort to share with the firearms community as a whole, in my efforts to summarize, and I apologize if I missed any major point of context, as that was not my intent. I enjoy this forum for it's more mature method of addressing issues. In the title of this forum it states it is for teachers and students of the pistol. After over 30 years of some experience with firearms, on this forum I still place myself in the student category.

[Joe in PNG]

Derp is a lot like tar stains, but on the mind.
Easy to get on, hard as heck to remove. It always amazes me how people will defend to the death something they once heard from sum dood at the gunshop, or read on teh internets.

[Totem Polar]

I do however think you guys should stop using the meme of piecing bodies for any of the reasons you use them. You can even take it one step further.




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CD9NqB7VAAILkbx.jpg

[Robinson]

Coming in hot with all your own opinions about how every one else is wrong generally isn't the way to go. Just my thoughts.

Yeah that pretty much nails it. Plus it happened in the Ammunition section of the forum, which is really just a wonderful place to learn good things.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've seen the theory before that one should use FMJs with handguns because penetration trumps every other consideration.

This logic holds true, for .32acp pistols.......

Service caliber handgun firing standard FMJ ammo can penetrate 2 or 3 people in a row. I've seen gel shots of loads like 147gr 9mm or 180gr .40 FMJFP get like 46" into gel blocks. Quality service pistol JHPs such as what Doc recommends typically still penetrate all the way through the person shot when the hits are torso only and not at a funky angle. Our 124gr +P Gold Dots consistently exited the bad guys we shot, but they did not present a downrange danger to anyone else as they were quickly spent past that point.

Not sure why one would need MORE than "consistently all the way through" levels of penetration.

[Balisong]

you know I've always felt that 9mm vs .45 was a question just begging to be answered by a 105 page thread about nothing.

I'm new here so I'm gonna assume it's never been asked and start a brand new thread about it....

[JustOneGun]

I'm new here so I'm gonna assume it's never been asked and start a brand new thread about it....



Hey if you're new and just need something to read there is always the AIWB sticky...

[critter]

Definitely an interesting thread. But I'm severely disappointed in this wasted box of tampons I've been carrying around... Man, I though I had that bleeding bullet hole thing covered on the cheap.

[blues]

Definitely an interesting thread. But I'm severely disappointed in this wasted box of tampons I've been carrying around... Man, I though I had that bleeding bullet hole thing covered on the cheap.

Don't forget the cellophane from cigarette packs. Oh wait, you said inexpensive.

[Balisong]

Hey if you're new and just need something to read there is always the AIWB sticky...

Screw that. I'm gonna start a thread asking if anyone likes aiwb carry and who makes a good aiwb holster for a Glock 19 and then never check back in that thread.

[JAD]

Mixing ammo in your mags is pure fuckery.

I'm not going to do the Googlekraft but I think that was our first Chuck 'fuckery' of 2017, and it's already May. I think we're doing better.

[blues]

Mixing ammo in your mags is pure fuckery. Unless one is shooting a belt fed gun and mixing things like ball and tracers it's just stupid as hell.


I'm not going to do the Googlekraft but I think that was our first Chuck 'fuckery' of 2017, and it's already May. I think we're doing better.

I think I've mentioned this anecdote previously but your post just reminded me...

We had a (not very popular) agent who was famous for having tried to load his magazines with one round facing forward, one rearward when he was told to "stagger" his rounds by the range officer at FLETC.

(He also wanted to know what PRNDL meant above the steering column during a skid pan lesson.)

Fuckery indeed.

[critter]

(He also wanted to know what PRNDL meant above the steering column during a skid pan lesson.)

Fuckery indeed.


The 'staggering' is funny; THAT's a classic. :D

[HCM]

I'm not going to do the Googlekraft but I think that was our first Chuck 'fuckery' of 2017, and it's already May. I think we're doing better.

Did someone say "fuckery"? ;-)


http://youtu.be/dCIjukbIIWc

[psalms144.1]

I can't believe this thread is still alive, but the "fuckery" turn is definitely a turn for the better, IMHO

[Beat Trash]

Ok, so I'm home, sick in bed, sober and bored so I actually just read through all 10 pages of this topic. WOW...

First off, I love when a point is trying to be justified based on, "I know someone in Law Enforcement who said...". You do realize that there are a lot of people participating in this conversation with an actual background in Law Enforcement. With larger urban agencies. With first hand experience.

Dr. Gary Roberts has more than a passing knowledge on the topic. Just saying. He actually knows what he's talking about reference terminal ballistics. And more important, his tests can be replicated. My small agency of 1,200 needed to change duty ammunition in 2011. So we hosted a pair of ballistic workshops. Short version of the story was that we conducted the same tests of the same types of ammunition, and were able to duplicate Dr. Roberts results. I'm not a scientist, but I think that the ability to duplicate results adds credibility to the initial testing process.

I've shot enough auto glass over the years to understand that bullets will deflect. It's not rocket science, you just shoot the windshield until you create a hole. Then you shoot rounds through the hole at the suspect. I find this much easier than trying to remember which magazine has which type of pistol ammunition in it while someone is actively trying to kill you.

When shooting a human, penetration matters. Too little is bad, too much is almost as bad. If you don't hit the central nervous system, then you need to drop the blood pressure enough so that the suspect stops doing that which caused you to shoot them in the first place. Once again, Dr. Roberts can explain it much better than I. Something that the, "Friend who's with a Federal Agency" or the "Friend who's a LEO" might not tell you is that some people are harder to incapacitate than others. In other words, some people take more effort to stop than others.

LEO hit/miss ratio? Please... At least in my city, the officer involved in a OIS incident will have to be able to state that they had a clear backstop. One of the reasons why our profession can suck at times is that we have rules, policies, procedures and Department guidelines. We have to be able to decide if it's a shoot or a no-shoot situation. Especially in an urban environment.

To carry magazine loaded with alternate loads of FMJ then JHP is to assume that at least 50% of your ammunition is not up to the task at hand. Here's a thought, if you feel that way, then get a barrier blind load and carry that.

I've been an intercity LEO for the last 24+ years. During that time, I've seen people shot with just about every caliber firearm that a person can steal. I've seen all types of rounds work and all types of rounds fail. I am convinced that the secret to coming out alive during a violent armed confrontation is actually rather simple. One must utilize good shot placement and the appropriate tactics when dealing with an armed suspect, before the armed suspect can do the same to you.

Fuckery...

[QED]

The advantage of using JHPs is largely based on the premise that increasing non-vital wound trauma leads to physiological incapacitation (including a psychological component). The problem with some JHPs is that in return for more tissue disruption penetration is quite limited as expansion (expanded bullet diameter) is not carefully controlled (not always possible or even deemed necessary by some manufacturers). Although 10% "real" gel (as well as water) IS a good soft-tissue simulant at typical handgun velocities, penetration correlation between such gel (and also water) and human non-homogeneous soft-tissue breaks down as the bullet substantially slows down -- which, for typical JHPs, happens within several inches after impact.

[Myg30]

I just want to say Thankyou to all here for the knowledge and information on the forum. I read here a lot, post little as I was once told by a man I worked for at age 15...... " The less you say, The less ignorant people will know you are "!!
My morning coffee time I read here. I enjoy the humor as much as the knowledge.
Keep up the good work
Thanks, Mike