NRA Carry Guard?

[JSGlock34]

Interesting to see NRA move towards tactical training. A three day training course involving tactics, low light, and force on force scenarios is a considerable jump from NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting. A number of recognizable names on the list of Endorsers, including Ken Hackathorn, Pat McNamara, Bill Rogers, Clint Smith, and Larry Vickers. Anyone have insight into the training curriculum and standards?

NRA Carry Guard | Endorsers (https://www.nracarryguard.com/training/endorsers/)

What is NRA Carry Guard training?

The NRA Carry Guard program was created to be the gold standard in concealed carry training and to prepare responsible citizens who legally carry to effectively confront today’s evolving conflict environment. It was developed by elite military veterans in conjunction with law enforcement experts. It consists of three levels of training with Level One launching in June 2017.

While the courses are open to anyone who legally owns a handgun, this training may not be for everyone. It is designed for those who take carrying seriously—people who want to be more proficient shooters so they can carry concealed with greater confidence. It is for people who know it takes more than a gun to be well-armed, and who understand that carrying every day requires discipline, education and a respectful appreciation of the magnitude of drawing the gun from the holster.

The three-day program is based on the concept that “the best do the basics better” and focus on fundamentals on the range. Then those fundamentals are applied to real-life CCW situations, self-defense tactics and techniques, low-light shooting, force-on-force Air Soft scenarios and more. Students are evaluated on a course of fire where only a passing score earns eligibility to move to the next level—there are no participation certificates.

[voodoo_man]

Education is absolutely paramount to shifting public perception. Especially in the 2A CCW community.

Imagine that every single messed up CCW shoot you've seen in the last few years had never happened. How far that would go? Imagine if every shoot was not only good, but negative media coverage was impossible. Those are dreams, but this type of mainstream training which is absolutely required to get us closer to that goal.

[HCM]

Interesting. Does this have any relation to the NRA "disinviting" the US Concealed Carry Association from the NRA national meetings ?

[HCountyGuy]

Interesting. Does this have any relation to the NRA "disinviting" the US Concealed Carry Association from the NRA national meetings ?

Many suspect this is the EXACT reason the USCCA was uninvited. NRA is taking flak for it too, and rightly so if it's true.

[Inkwell 41]

If it is the reason the USCCA was disinvited to the annual meeting, then shame on the NRA. Despite the recent change in fortune for those of us who are Pro 2nd Amendment, I think it's a huge mistake for the NRA, or any othe pro-gun organization for that matter, to do anything that might cause division amongst gun owners. 2016 only gave us a bit of breathing room, the argument is far from settled and those that want us to take away our rights are still working to do just that. Eating our own doesn't help.

[Hot Sauce]

If it is the reason the USCCA was disinvited to the annual meeting, then shame on the NRA. Despite the recent change in fortune for those of us who are Pro 2nd Amendment, I think it's a huge mistake for the NRA, or any othe pro-gun organization for that matter, to do anything that might cause division amongst gun owners. 2016 only gave us a bit of breathing room, the argument is far from settled and those that want us to take away our rights are still working to do just that. Eating our own doesn't help.The USSCA are real class acts. They declared that they will support/donate to the NRA's efforts despite the dis-invitation. Nice to see that not everyone is all about the almighty dollar.

[Ed L]

My random observations:

The video of the training on https://www.nracarryguard.com/ looked interesting.

Very clever program. First there is the insurance. For example the Gold level lists a million dollars worth of protection. You have to read it more closely to see that the million dollars is $1 million of civil protection with $150k of criminal. The Bronze lists $250k but the $250k is for civil while it has a $50k limit for criminal. The criminal is the more pressing and more likely need. The Gold plan costs $31.95 a month while the bronze is $13.95 a month.

In looking at the FAQ I noticed that they charge an unspecified administrative fee. The FAQ states "The administrative fee is charged to cover costs associated with the processing and maintenance of your membership." I would bet this administrative fee is separate from the listed monthly fee. Interestingly enough it is not listed--or at least I did not see it listed. This sets off red flags to me.

I would want to see the whole written policy.

The training part lists a three day class with some scenario work with airsoft.

Of course the attendees spoke glowingly of it since it was a promotional video. Also, it looked like for some if not many of them it was their first formal training. And I got the feeling that their training was taught by the some of the Ex-mil guys who are the public faces of the training, not your typical NRA instructor. I imagine that these classes will attract a lot of people who have had little or no training experience, including people who have their guns fresh in their boxes. I would expect that to be a challenge to the instructors. If I were an instructor teaching this class, I would want to have a higher than average number of assistant instructors just because the class is likely to attract more than the average number of new/less experienced shooters. I would also expect the instructors needing to spend a fair amount of time on basics of shooting and safety before they can get up to the carry portion.

They also mentioned that they would offer level two and level three classes, the contents of which are to be released later.

Actually a lot of things about this program are supposed to be released later.

It seems that once someone is an NRA certified instructor you can take a class to be able to become a carryguard instructor. I would guess that it would take a more elaborate setup to teach this carryguard class.
Also, the basic three day class might seem to be a logistical problem in that NRA instructors typically work full time jobs so teaching the class would necessitate taking a day off, as it would for the students. A two day format would have probably fit in better, but would not have allowed enough time to teach the curriculum that they developed for this course.


I think it's good that this type of training is trying to be offered in a widespread manner, and might attract people otherwise might not avail themselves of it.

I think the execution remains to be seen, and I predict a lot of bumps in the road of something of this scale.

I would also expect that members of this board who have received training from some of the better known qualified trainers would find this Carryguard training to be nothing new and probably basic and even boring.

[TGS]

Also, the basic three day class might seem to be a logistical problem in that NRA instructors typically work full time jobs so teaching the class would necessitate taking a day off, as it would for the students. A two day format would have probably fit in better, but would not have allowed enough time to teach the curriculum that they developed for this course.

On that, I think if NRA copied John Murphy's class lineup it'd be able to reach more people. He probably has the best intro-class layout/lineup for the layman. Lots of people even have trouble getting both Saturday and Sunday off between work and family, but the way his courses are structured accommodates such.

[BJXDS]

As an NRA member I believe they are the most powerful lobbying organization for our 2A RIGHTS. They have been supporting what we all know to be true, the 2A is Not about sporting or hunting alone, it is about our right to own firearms. I think the NRA has seen the discrepancy in the level of proficiency and training most members have.
It's ALL about money, and the NRA has more than any other pro gun rights organization and we need a lot of money to fight the anti's. It looks like they have seen the need for more advanced training, and also the income it will generate.
On the positive side I see a NRA certification for firearms training to be a valuable cert. Lets be honest a lot of people don't take this seriously enough, and the lack of training does not help our cause. A set standard by the NRA would carry a lot of weight. The NRA has the ability to market and provide proper training.
On the negative side I see the antis trying to use this against the 2A by trying to say that whatever level of training that is currently the standard is not good enough. I believe their goal is total firearm abolishment. I just hope this is not a step closer to more bureaucratic and expensive NRA. I also worry that “Proper Firearms Training” will be used by the antis as a backdoor form of firearms ownership/abolishment in the form of, if you don't have this level of training than you can not own a firearm. They have already implemented this on the State level in many places. One of their favorite arguments is, a driver’s license and registration is required to own and operate a motor vehicle, and it should be as for firearms as well.
Training is good, proper training is even better. There is quality training available for those interested in seeking and committing to it. I hope that the cost to obtain this level of training is not prohibitive for most people. The type of people that have taken this level of training up to this point are probably financially sound and very motivated and committed. I do not believe this is the majority of the NRA members or firearms owners in general.
I believe it is foolish to not be properly trained, I however also believe the 2A is not about training, it is our right to own firearms for protection.

The NRA has not released cost and details of the training options but have released three levels of this new program with membership/ insurance…. Included. I am just a little cynical of how its all going to turn out.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Interesting they went with a 24-hour format. Most out here are 16-hours if taught in the private sector.

I would really like to know how they are going address the scenario training and safety concerns.

[Ed L]

On that, I think if NRA copied John Murphy's class lineup it'd be able to reach more people. He probably has the best intro-class layout/lineup for the layman. Lots of people even have trouble getting both Saturday and Sunday off between work and family, but the way his courses are structured accommodates such.

I agree. But they are interested in launching something bigger and more encompassing. And now that they have released the overview with a 3 day super encompassing class, it is going to be difficult to backpeddle.

There are other major logistical issues in them setting it up that I will post about when I get home.

[octagon]

As a longtime NRA and shorter time USCCA member I am glad the NRA is offering training more in tune to CC practitioners if it is good training. The insurance and level system is a very close copy including prices to USCCA. The concerns Ed L mentioned need to be clarified and it appears it is reimbursement vs initial paying. The access to training videos is also just like USCCA. I can see why they uninvited USCCA to the NRA convention but is seems like a cheap move that wasn't really needed and does more to make the NRA look bad then reduce competition. Anyone looking for insurance, online training video library and a CC related magazine can easily find out about USCCA,CCW Safe,Second Call, Panteo and the NRA stuff. By uninviting the USCCA looks more like the NRA is afraid of the competition they copied. I applaud the USCCA for their response to continue support the NRA and I will for their strength but I am still disappointed in the NRA again.

I also worry that the training will be as realistic,relevant and high quality as they want to portray in the video and with the known names I'm sure were well compensated . I also hope the training isn't just cool stuff to be challenging for challenge sake as I saw all open holsters in the video and almost all the named instructors backing the program were military elite unit backgrounds. Not a bad thing but the least relevant to citizen concealed carry.

I'll wait and see before judging too harshly and depending on cost/availability will attend if it is reasonable.

[HCM]

Maybe the NRA should be afraid if the competition from the USCCA if the photo they are using to kick things off is any indication.

To quote Chuck Haggard "It makes baby Odin weep...."

Seriously, who thought using this photo was a good idea ?

16178

[spinmove_]

Maybe the NRA should be afraid if the competition from the USCCA if the photo they are using to kick things off is any indication.

To quote Chuck Haggard "It makes baby Odin weep...."

Seriously, who thought using this photo was a good idea ?

16178

Oh wow, that makes me cringe so hard.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[octagon]

What's the big deal with the photo? So he has a low grip, finger on the trigger and open OWB holster. Big deal. The key is that he has the dark sunglasses,cool mustache and tactical clothing with embroidered emblem as well as the credentials key to concealed carry citizens.

[Peally]

Meh, they've already lost my renewal over the USCCA backstab.

[Jay Cunningham]

cool mustache

[TAZ]

I need to do more reading as I've been considering one of these insurance schemes, but do they all reimburse after the fact? I thought I read on the NRA side of the equation they reimburse you after you have won your case and not pay up front for legal services.

[Totem Polar]

CCW insurance might be a reasonable topic for a whole separate thread, as a lot of people may have been mulling this over, but not pulled the trigger yet (e.g. Myself). Other quick observations: the percentage of the NRA's millions of members who've had a high quality 2 or 3 day class is nowhere near high enough; maybe this mainstream shooter effort will help. On the other hand, that picture really doesn't help. That draw is the stuff of enthusiast nightmares. It's as if H.R Giger dedicated himself to depicting striker-fired realism late in life. Chills...

[HCM]

What's the big deal with the photo? So he has a low grip, finger on the trigger and open OWB holster. Big deal. The key is that he has the dark sunglasses,cool mustache and tactical clothing with embroidered emblem as well as the credentials key to concealed carry citizens.

Finger on the trigger WAY too early, particularly given he is using a striker fired gun.

Most people are concerned about NDs when bolstering but a fair percentage of NDs occur on the draw.

[octagon]

Finger on the trigger WAY too early, particularly given he is using a striker fired gun.

Most people are concerned about NDs when bolstering but a fair percentage of NDs occur on the draw.

You're kidding right? I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic when I mentioned his mustache and clothing but maybe I should have put j/k or a smiley.

[HCM]

You're kidding right? I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic when I mentioned his mustache and clothing but maybe I should have put j/k or a smiley.

You should. There is no tone in text. That is what emojis are for.

As for the mustache, clothing etc - I would expect a guy who fits the fireaems instructor stereotype so well to know better but once again - never assume.

I was hoping the carry guard would be more derived from the LE side of the NRA training house but this does does not bode well.

[Peally]

You should. There is no tone in text. That is what emojis are for.
I was hoping the carry guard would be more derived from the LE side of the NRA training house but this does does not bode well.

You gotta re-calibrate your sarcasm meter, it was pretty obviously a joke.

[octagon]

You should. There is no tone in text. That is what emojis are for.

As for the mustache, clothing etc - I would expect a guy who fits the fireaems instructor stereotype so well to know better but once again - never assume.

I was hoping the carry guard would be more derived from the LE side of the NRA training house but this does does not bode well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj60OAh7O5U

;-)

[Ed L]

I read that the guy in the picture--James Jarret, I believe--had his hand reconstructed after some type of police or military related injury like shrapnel from a bomb. His hand had to be rebuilt or something and thus he doesn't have good control over it.

I agree that a course constructed by the NRA LEO trainers would have been better--but it seems that they relied on the flash of Special Warfare to draw students.

[Drang]

I need to do more reading as I've been considering one of these insurance schemes, but do they all reimburse after the fact? I thought I read on the NRA side of the equation they reimburse you after you have won your case and not pay up front for legal services.

Check out the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. (https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/)

[spinmove_]

I read that the guy in the picture--James Jarret, I believe--had his hand reconstructed after some type of police or military related injury like shrapnel from a bomb. His hand had to be rebuilt or something and thus he doesn't have good control over it.

I agree that a course constructed by the NRA LEO trainers would have been better--but it seems that they relied on the flash of Special Warfare to draw students.

A lot of people wouldn't known that context. Would have been better had they used someone else for a similar picture showing a much less flubbed looking draw.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Maybe the NRA should be afraid if the competition from the USCCA if the photo they are using to kick things off is any indication.

To quote Chuck Haggard "It makes baby Odin weep...."

Seriously, who thought using this photo was a good idea ?

16178

This picture is worth so much more than 1,000 words...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I read that the guy in the picture--James Jarret, I believe--had his hand reconstructed after some type of police or military related injury like shrapnel from a bomb. His hand had to be rebuilt or something and thus he doesn't have good control over it.

I agree that a course constructed by the NRA LEO trainers would have been better--but it seems that they relied on the flash of Special Warfare to draw students.

Regardless, the real issue is with the NRA program or marketing director who chose this image to represent their program.

[blues]

Regardless, the real issue is with the NRA program or marketing director who chose this image to represent their program.

Not to mention Dana Loesch's scowling visage everywhere I turn. Okay, I get it...she's scary. :rolleyes:

[Jay Cunningham]

Pictures are a delicate thing. I could scour the intrawebs and probably find a single "moment in time" of nearly anyone doing something which seemingly appears foolish or unprofessional with a gun - myself included.

That said, the NRA should certainly have carefully considered which pictures they used to promote their infant program.

On a tangential note, I'm not sure which particular skillset LEOs or Special Operations Forces bring to civilian concealed carry. Perhaps if the LEOs have a pedigree in undercover work or the SF guys have particular experience in executive protection or other low profile affairs, I can see it.

Which some certainly do.

[scjbash]

That picture was from a video the NRA took down, likely because of all the shit they were catching. Along with the finger in the trigger guard from the beginning of the draw his support hand was a mess and his grip completely broke down under recoil.

[Ed L]

Regardless, the real issue is with the NRA program or marketing director who chose this image to represent their program.

Agree completely. Some people don't have complete control of their hand:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWNMSUbcGI

[octagon]

I'll just leave this here for anyone interested to review and make their own judgment,settle their minds or add to their concerns.

Mr Jarretts school http://americanweaponsacademy.com/

[Ed L]

Check out the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. (https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/)

Funny you should mention that, I joined them two days ago. I was on the fence about it for a while and for whatever reason and decided to commit. It is reasonably priced and run by people known in the community and has people like Tom Givens involved.

I looked at the NRA's program and for some reason or other did not get the warm fuzzies. I appreciate everything that the NRA has done and support them, but I suspect that if I joined their carry guard program and they get my email as well as my phone number I will be bombarded with calls and emails about discount upgrades to upgrade from whatever level I am at. My guess is that some people will buy it and others won't. The ones that won't will be bombarded by so much advertising material about it that they will reflexively throw anything that comes from the NRA away and may wind up not renewing their memberships because they accidentally threw the renewal reminder away.

[11B10]

Check out the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. (https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/)


I spent an inordinate amount of time researching the insurance plans out there for us. The ACLDN is so low key that I almost missed them. IMHO, they offer the most sensible plan. I joined 2 years ago and highly recommend everyone at least check it out.

[Odin Bravo One]

Eric Frohardt is a personal friend. After being medically retired from Special Warfare, he opened a training facility in Denver and has ventured into a few different areas of entrepreneurial adventure.

I've trained with him extensively, and have no reservations in recommending his programs to friends and family, not because he's my friend, but because he is good.

How that plays out under the expert eye and guidance of the NRA, is anyone's guess. I'm not terribly optimistic simply because of the letters "NRA"........ they have proven capable of ruining a wet dream.

That said, one could do a lot worse, and there are worse ideas and options out there.

[HCM]

Agree completely. Some people don't have complete control of their hand:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWNMSUbcGI

In that case I likely wouldn't choose a SFA gun. Sounds like a great reason to choose a TDA or DAO gun.

As I said, my issue is with the NRA, this is another "backwards bullet" moment for them.

The ACLDN is the best of it's type in my opinion.

[Redhat]

Eric Frohardt is a personal friend. After being medically retired from Special Warfare, he opened a training facility in Denver and has ventured into a few different areas of entrepreneurial adventure.

I've trained with him extensively, and have no reservations in recommending his programs to friends and family, not because he's my friend, but because he is good.

How that plays out under the expert eye and guidance of the NRA, is anyone's guess. I'm not terribly optimistic simply because of the letters "NRA"........ they have proven capable of ruining a wet dream.

That said, one could do a lot worse, and there are worse ideas and options out there.

Hopefully they'll be willing to accept useful feedback to improve the program when issues pop up.

[ranger]

I cannot help but believe that the NRA sees this as a way to make a lot of money.

[blues]

Hopefully they'll be willing to accept useful feedback to improve the program when issues pop up.

NRA...No Reviews Allowed...? ;)

[ADKilla]

On a tangential note, I'm not sure which particular skillset LEOs or Special Operations Forces bring to civilian concealed carry. Perhaps if the LEOs have a pedigree in undercover work or the SF guys have particular experience in executive protection or other low profile affairs, I can see it.

It's more than that; it's the attitude about application of deadly force. LEOs typically see deadly force as a last alternative while mil typically see it as the only alternative. Both are problematic for the civilian CCW carrier. If you're going to implement training start with a discussion about force and deadly force. The goal is to understand that shooting is a tiny part of the problem but the most unforgiving. Unless the training addresses rapid problem solving in a high threat environment, the training starts from the wrong paradigm.

It looks like basic grip, stance, trigger pull, etc. is phase 1 with low-light ops as phase 2. How about something like MUC as the first phase?

[joshs]

It's more than that; it's the attitude about application of deadly force. LEOs typically see deadly force as a last alternative while mil typically see it as the only alternative. Both are problematic for the civilian CCW carrier. If you're going to implement training start with a discussion about force and deadly force. The goal is to understand that shooting is a tiny part of the problem but the most unforgiving. Unless the training addresses rapid problem solving in a high threat environment, the training starts from the wrong paradigm.

It looks like basic grip, stance, trigger pull, etc. is phase 1 with low-light ops as phase 2. How about something like MUC as the first phase?

The very first thing students will see is a basic explanation of use of force law.

[vcdgrips]

Taken from the link above

"JAMES JARRETT (ABD – ph.d.). MS...His education includes a Bachelor of Science, summa cum laud in Criminal Justice, a Master of Science degree in Justice Studies, and holds standing as (ABD-Ph.D.) in Law and Social Control"

Query for the Ph.D holders/active seekers here- where,if anywhere, is it customary to refer to yourself in the manner above? Am I to infer that he has completed all of his course work but not his dissertation when I see "ABD"? To my JD earned from a very modest ABA accredited state school/1st attempt bar exam passing/license holding mind, I cannot help but think he is trying to create the impression amongst those not in the know that he holds a Ph.D from an unnamed institution along with his BA and MS from other unnamed institutions. Am I being too cynical?

[octagon]

Taken from the link above

"JAMES JARRETT (ABD – ph.d.). MS...His education includes a Bachelor of Science, summa cum laud in Criminal Justice, a Master of Science degree in Justice Studies, and holds standing as (ABD-Ph.D.) in Law and Social Control"

Query for the Ph.D holders/active seekers here- where,if anywhere, is it customary to refer to yourself in the manner above? Am I to infer that he has completed all of his course work but not his dissertation when I see "ABD"? To my JD earned from a very modest ABA accredited state school/1st attempt bar exam passing/license holding mind, I cannot help but think he is trying to create the impression amongst those not in the know that he holds a Ph.D from an unnamed institution along with his BA and MS from other unnamed institutions. Am I being too cynical?

You are right on the money and a reason why I posted the link. Nobody should be listing their ABD (All but Dissertation) status that way unless they are trying to muddy up where they are at. You are either ABD or you are a Phd and not both mixed. For those outside the academic realm if you didn't complete your dissertation and defend it you are not a Phd. Since a Masters degree is much of the Phd class and testing work the dissertation is THE component of a Phd. It is kind of like saying "i've done all the work except the main part"

[HCM]

Interesting article regarding the NRAs carry guard instructors. Bear in mind the author is affiliated with ACLDN.

http://misfiresandlightstrikes.com/2017/05/03/nra-carry-guard-trainers/?utm_content=buffer71391&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

What I found most interesting was not the article itself but some of the facebook comments from individuals with great credibility in the firearms training industry including " Not to mention Jarrett's affiliation with the LAPD was in its Red Squad during the late '60s." and "Jarrett is a giant fraud".

[Mr Pink]

NRA...No Reviews Allowed...? ;)

Ha ha! They need a suggestion box ;)

[TDA]

I believe all NRA certified instructors got an email last friday inviting them to apply to become NRA Carry Guard instructors.

One can do so at:
https://www.nracarryguard.com/training/become-an-instructor

I'm lazy and it's the internet, so I haven't researched it, but I'd expect that an NRA / Lockton Affinity insurance program should be able to substantially undercut all the competition in the insurance space just by virtue of the membership numbers. Maybe it's going to be amazing and change the world, certainly it's not a thing that's not needed... that's why a bunch of clever people had these ideas first, years ago, and this has a certain uncomfortable feel to it?

ETA: email stated that the insurance is here, but instructor app and qual process launch this summer, sign up to find out later.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/03/potd-nra-carry-guard-director-curriculum/

What do y'all think?

[blues]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/03/potd-nra-carry-guard-director-curriculum/

What do y'all think?

I think some FBI agents are arrogant prigs and that DEA is sometimes out of control. ;)

(Fortunately I'm still able to keep my finger off the trigger when I draw...and more fortunately for everyone else, I won't be offering training to the public at large. :cool:)

[Marty Hayes]

Thank-you all who are ACLDN members who have spoken up here. We are low key, prefer to spend our money on making the Network better, as opposed to advertising.

[11B10]

Thank-you all who are ACLDN members who have spoken up here. We are low key, prefer to spend our money on making the Network better, as opposed to advertising.



Somehow I failed to get my $0.02 in, Marty. Your response is exactly what I'd expect as you continue to be THE class act. I'm looking forward to many more years with the ACLDN.

[holmes168]

I need to do some research- like an earlier poster typed- I have been kicking around the idea of getting CC insurance. I can't really afford the extra cash a month, but then again- I insure my house and my car- never had to use either, but don't feel bad about the payments.

[ScotchMan]

I posted another thread which I realize now overlaps with this one. Basically my question, which I think is on topic, is for opinions on Carry Guard vs. ACLDN, comparing and contrasting the two. I have been a ACLDN member and would consider supplementing with Carry Guard. The main appeal to me is that it is backed by an insurance company, while ACLDN seems to have no guarantees. Though I am entirely confident they would do the right thing, there is something to be said for having a corporation involved. Or maybe not. Thoughts?

[Drang]

Is Carry Guard "we'll reimburse you when found innocent"? Or will they front you money to get the legal defense ball rolling?

[blues]

Is Carry Guard "we'll reimburse you when found innocent"? Or will they front you money to get the legal defense ball rolling?

From the NRA Carry Guard FAQ (https://www.nracarryguard.com/help/faq/)


If criminal charges are brought against you, the criminal defense costs sublimit will reimburse you for any expenses related to your criminal defense if you are acquitted. Civil liability protection will take care of the expenses related to your civil defense and certain damages you may incur. Coverage for civil damages is subject to the limit of insurance as determined by your membership level. The legal costs associated with defending you against any civil suit are in addition to the policy limit.

Is the payment of criminal defense costs on a reimbursement basis?
Yes, payment of criminal defense costs is on a reimbursement basis. State laws prohibit insurance companies from covering their policy holders’ criminal acts. Once charges against you are dropped or you are found not guilty, NRA Carry Guard protection will reimburse your criminal defense costs up to the sublimit provided by your membership level, less any Supplementary Payments made.

[TDA]

It sounds a lot like criminal defense on a contingency fee basis.

[theblacknight]

Even after the terrible video was taken down, the other carry guard videos do not inspire much confidence. The only one I can stand to watch is the Pat Mac video.

These were screenshotted from other CG videos:

Just because the belt came with the jeans dosent mean you should use it at the range.
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18301781_1881637312109043_3440419171507921730_n.jp g?oh=746a5347b16a351a10de32d24c0f8952&oe=59C0016C

Grip?
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18274696_1881637318775709_8989010605190248561_n.jp g?oh=479fa888ff1ba6bc84ef17fd62818e7d&oe=59AEF5CE

[Mr_White]

Even after the terrible video was taken down, the other carry guard videos do not inspire much confidence. The only one I can stand to watch is the Pat Mac video.

These were screenshotted from other CG videos:

Just because the belt came with the jeans dosent mean you should use it at the range.
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18301781_1881637312109043_3440419171507921730_n.jp g?oh=746a5347b16a351a10de32d24c0f8952&oe=59C0016C

Grip?
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18274696_1881637318775709_8989010605190248561_n.jp g?oh=479fa888ff1ba6bc84ef17fd62818e7d&oe=59AEF5CE

The way that second picture looks, it makes me wonder if he is just finishing a reload.

[Greg]

Not to mention Dana Loesch's scowling visage everywhere I turn. Okay, I get it...she's scary. :rolleyes:

She can scowl at me all she wants.

[theblacknight]

The way that second picture looks, it makes me wonder if he is just finishing a reload.

He was in the middle of loading the gun.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Analysis of carry guard by Poltico (they are not gun fans) - FYI:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/27/the-nra-would-like-to-insure-you-now-215196

[Ed L]

Analysis of carry guard by Poltico (they are not gun fans) - FYI:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/27/the-nra-would-like-to-insure-you-now-215196

That article also mentions: "Meanwhile, lawmakers in Massachusetts, Washington, North Carolina, New York and Hawaii have introduced bills this year that would require gun owners to carry liability insurance."

Insurance is a scary backdoor method of gun control. If you consider that something like 1 out of 400 handguns is used in a crime while criminal recidivism is around 50%, shouldn't criminals be required to carry some type of insurance before being allowed to leave prison and maintain it once out?

Oh, no, that would violate their civil rights. Well, can't the same be said for requiring firearms owners to have insurance.

The NRA Carryguard insurance could actually be used as an argument by antogunners that gunowners should be required to carry insurance.

[HCM]

Disallowing revolvers/1911's for the class except for a 40 round portion where it's then ok to use "carry guns/holsters" when the entire program is called CARRY guard, indicates you don't know what you're doing.

17395

[Drang]

Disallowing revolvers/1911's for the class except for a 40 round portion where it's then ok to use "carry guns/holsters" when the entire program is called CARRY guard, indicates you don't know what you're doing.

17395

17396

Dear NRA: WTF is wrong with you?! (https://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2017/06/dear-nra-wtf-is-wrong-with-you.html)

NRA Carry Guard | Register

*NOTE: NRA Carry Guard Level One is designed for training with a semi-automatic handgun (Glock 19/17, Sig P226/P228 or equivalent). We will not allow revolvers or 1911s as your primary firearm in this class.

Emphasis in original.

You idiots. You dolts. You elitists. This course already costs far more than the vast majority of gun-owning and -carrying Americans is willing to spend on anything, and you want to limit it that bad?

And just what is the person who only owns one gun to do, if that one gun happens to be a 191 or a revolver?

And just WTF is wrong with a 1911 or a revolver for self-defense?

You already shot yourselves in the foot by giving every appearance of having ripped off the US Concealed Carry Associations business model, and now this?

I can't help think the planning meeting went something like "Hey, let's give our grass roots a new reason to wish we weren't on their side!"

[TDA]

She can scowl at me all she wants.

She's doing it right now.

(Or 30 days ago, whatever, damn pfestivus countdown clock.)

17398

[Ed L]

My guess is that their course of fire is geared to guns with high capacity magazines--hence no 1911s. I guess they never thought it out and realized that one can use a 1911 and carry more magazines.

As for no revolvers--revolvers hold less rounds than a 1911, and would not be able to keep up with the course of fire. I also imagine that their overall instruction is geared toward automatics and it would take way too much time away from the class to teach someone the complicated operation of cylinder release and a speedloader--right????

Wow, for the NRA to not let 1911s or revolvers in a class designed for concealed carry is just stepping on a part of their anatomy. I mean no 1911s, considering some of the well known people who said positive things about this class are known for 1911s???

They really did not think this through. My guess is that they let whoever design this class design it without considering who they are marketing it to.

[ST911]

Claude Werner offers this... https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2017/06/17/stink-about-nra-carry-guard/. Excerpt:


Stink about NRA Carry Guard

There’s currently a lot of Internet stink about some limitations imposed in the NRA Carry Guard training. I’m not going to comment about Carry Guard in general because as an Instructor certified in numerous disciplines through the NRA Training Department, there’s a possible conflict of interest.

What I will comment about the equipment limitation is:

They’re staying in their lane of competency.

Looking at the background and resumes of the instructors, running a striker fired autoloader or Sig 226 is mostly likely all they’ve ever been trained with, practiced with, or used. Revolvers and 1911s have a different manual of arms and idiosyncrasies that these instructors, with the exception of Jarrett who was briefly with the LAPD decades ago, are probably not familiar with.

My thoughts... Revolvers require some added POIs, adapted drill construction and flow, and added class time or time taken away from others. The term "1911" includes a broad spectrum of possible guns on the line, added POIs, and expectations of function. I suspect both types would be a small minority in the NRA CG class.

[Hambo]

I went to a Givens class last year and it was definitely Glock centered, which is kind of "no shit" since 90% of the students bring Glocks or SF pistols. The NRA classes just say that up front.

[Tamara]

Carry Guard has been pretty much the opposite of a PR coup from every angle so far.

[Cory]

The problem I have with Carry Guard is what it could mean for what is accepted ciriculum. The NRA carries a lot of weight within politics, and as a result many view it as almost a governing body of gun owners. I think that in and of itself is a problem, but it's just how it is. Because of it's political heft people (less informed gun owners, politicos, writers, others) view the NRA as THE authority on guns.

So what happens when the NRA carry guard program doesn't allow 1911s and revolvers? The masses now think these firearms aren't good enough, safe enough, modern enough, whatevery enough for carry or defense. I mean, look the NRA says so. Because of the current outline of the NRA carry guard we can see this happening right?

So what happens when the NRA says overhand racking is the only way to reload? Suddenly, a ton of folks will think using the slide release (lock/stop/lever/whatever you prefer) is no longer a valid method. If the end-all-be-all NRA says it isn't then they have just sealed what the masses think. The same could happen if they ban AIWB. Even if it was for perhaps valid concerns: Lots of mostly untrained folks who can't all be watched at once, with a high risk of death if an injury does occur...With every VODA out there who happens to be an NRA certified instructor, I could see them making choices like that. The problem is that these choices then become the gold standard. Even if they aren't the best practice, or don't account for everything.

Real top level instructors and SMEs seem to espouse the idea of "Do what works for you" on a number of different topics. From reloads, to carry positions, to trigger finger placement, to nearly every facet of defense. I would hate to see people stop learning and evolving what works for them because it's not the method or technique that some random NRA carry guard instructor said. I see that as a true issue with the NRA trying to offer a higher level of training. I agree that the average gun owner needs more training, and the higher the level of training that we can get the average concealed carry to take the better. I just don't think the NRA is the right group for the job. Especially when the training industry already has numerous great instructors.

That is my big problem with carry guard. Add in terrible marketing, insurance that is reimbursement based, stealing the model from and booting another established company... that stuff is just more added on top to me.

-Cory

[octagon]

My guess is that their course of fire is geared to guns with high capacity magazines--hence no 1911s. I guess they never thought it out and realized that one can use a 1911 and carry more magazines.

As for no revolvers--revolvers hold less rounds than a 1911, and would not be able to keep up with the course of fire. I also imagine that their overall instruction is geared toward automatics and it would take way too much time away from the class to teach someone the complicated operation of cylinder release and a speedloader--right????

Wow, for the NRA to not let 1911s or revolvers in a class designed for concealed carry is just stepping on a part of their anatomy. I mean no 1911s, considering some of the well known people who said positive things about this class are known for 1911s???

They really did not think this through. My guess is that they let whoever design this class design it without considering who they are marketing it to.

I think you meant paid (shills) spokespersons. How much is a picture and comment worth to promote a product vs your reputation? Maybe the NRA and these "spokespersons" follow the adage that there is no such thing as bad publicity.

[Trooper224]

Many suspect this is the EXACT reason the USCCA was uninvited. NRA is taking flak for it too, and rightly so if it's true.

We have to remember that while we reap many benifits from the NRA, they aren't our friends. They're really nothing more than a lobbying shill for the gun industry. So while much of what they do is advantagious for us, their real role is to protect their own interests and those of their client, who isn't you.

[Tamara]

They're really nothing more than a lobbying shill for the gun industry.

This media talking point is so damn tired.

[HopetonBrown]

So what happens when the NRA carry guard program doesn't allow 1911s and revolvers? The masses now think these firearms aren't good enough, safe enough, modern enough, whatevery enough for carry or defense.


What type of gun would you bet is the biggest time suck in a class like this?

These classes would be full of Taurus PT1911s and Kimber Ultra Carry IIs, not Wilsons CQBs and Springer Pros.

My first basic pistol class had the local NRA instructor with a Kimber Micro Somethingorother as a student, who's constant malfunctions took up a fair amount of the instructors time. That instructor was Louis Awerbuck. Had it been another NRA instructor teaching that class I'd still probably be there.

[TDA]

Indeed. Keep in mind, the pool of potential instructors includes the set of all NRA Basic Pistol Safety instructors, the folks who teach you the knowledge skills and attitude necessary to safely operate a pistol or revolver on the square range in broad daylight without putting a hole in anything you're not supposed to. I kind of don't know what to make of the fact that it seems like an ripoff mashup of USCCA and American Warrior Society without the substance. It's clear to me that I'm not the target market.

[Ed L]

We have to remember that while we reap many benifits from the NRA, they aren't our friends. They're really nothing more than a lobbying shill for the gun industry. So while much of what they do is advantagious for us, their real role is to protect their own interests and those of their client, who isn't you.

And if it wasn't for these "lobbying shills" our gun laws would be like England.

[Ed L]

What type of gun would you bet is the biggest time suck in a class like this?

These classes would be full of Taurus PT1911s and Kimber Ultra Carry IIs, not Wilsons CQBs and Springer Pros.

My first basic pistol class had the local NRA instructor with a Kimber Micro Somethingorother as a student, who's constant malfunctions took up a fair amount of the instructors time. That instructor was Louis Awerbuck. Had it been another NRA instructor teaching that class I'd still probably be there.

This is a good point. But the 1911 is an the most iconic American handgun and sees a lot of articles in the NRA's magazines.

Now if they said no Tauruses, that would have been funny.

[ST911]

Random thoughts while waiting between stages today...

1) NRA reverses itself on 1911s in 4...3...2...
2) The number of outraged villagers with 1911s and those who might've actually enrolled in CG (or most other training) is inversely proportional. Hugely.
3) Despite the 1911's iconic stature, continued sales, and ownership levels the number in some semblance of actual use is dramatically overestimated.
4) Many more trainers and institutions than imagined would similarly restrict 1911s if they thought they could get away with it.

[GJM]

Interesting thought on instructor preferences. On one end of the spectrum are guys like Bill Rogers, who shoot whatever their students are shooting. That might be a Glock, Beretta 92, Sig 226, HK Mk23, or a M&P. As a result, he maintains proficiency in many platforms. Other instructors might prefer all their students shoot what they carry, and their expertise is fairly narrow.

[Hambo]

This is a good point. But the 1911 is an the most iconic American handgun and sees a lot of articles in the NRA's magazines.

Now if they said no Tauruses, that would have been funny.

Too many advertising dollars to do that, but it would have been awesome.

[Hambo]

Interesting thought on instructor preferences. On one end of the spectrum are guys like Bill Rogers, who shoot whatever their students are shooting. That might be a Glock, Beretta 92, Sig 226, HK Mk23, or a M&P. As a result, he maintains proficiency in many platforms. Other instructors might prefer all their students shoot what they carry, and their expertise is fairly narrow.

Very true. I remember Ken Hackathorn saying that part of the reason he had at least one of everything was that he did agency training and used whatever they did for the classes. Not only can he shoot your gun well, he can go on about how it works and its history, and why your particular model/brand sucks or not. There are a lot of people in the training biz now that don't have that kind of knowledge or experience with different firearms, and they'd be in deep water if 20 students showed up with a lot of different types of pistols.

[Jim Watson]

I agree with Claude Werner, the instructor pool has a lot of people without 1911 (BHP?) experience, and even more without even a nodding acquaintance with a revolver. Which is odd, the majority recommendation for the non-enthusiast is a revolver. But you can't teach what you don't know.

But they ain't seen nothin yet. People start showing up with the real carry guns of the non-professional, non-enthusiast and it is going to get tough. I have carried lots of guns that I would not care to shoot for three days of instruction and drill, those light handy pistols can kick and bite. Will John Q. Member tape up his hands and carry on?
And as with the Taurus quip, there will be functional failures galore.

I once took a 1911 to a class. There was one other single stack auto there, a Model 39. Exercises were structured so that he and I got off fewer rounds than the high-cap shooters but I am sure we did enough shooting to drive the instructions home.

[Poconnor]

Insurance and instruction endorsed by the NRA sounds like a good idea. The details and execution of this so far are very disappointing. I have taken more than a few NRA LE classes. I had some great instructors but I was often disappointed by the curriculum. It often felt dumbed down to ensure everyone passed. Admittedly many of the students did not want to be there and did not possess the required skills. Perhaps this new program needs to have several different classes or levels. How many hours are enough to be trained? Yearly updates? The more I think about this the more of a can of worms it becomes. It will become "the NRA says you need x number of hours of training" so now you need that to buy a gun. I appreciate Jarretts service to our country but I can't believe they picked him to represent this new program.

[Stephanie B]

Disallowing revolvers/1911's for the class except for a 40 round portion where it's then ok to use "carry guns/holsters" when the entire program is called CARRY guard, indicates you don't know what you're doing.

All right, then color me "uninterested in their offering".


Sent from my NSA-approved tracking device using Tapatalk

[GardoneVT]

I went to a Givens class last year and it was definitely Glock centered, which is kind of "no shit" since 90% of the students bring Glocks or SF pistols. The NRA classes just say that up front.

This may sound sacrilegious to an extent,but they'd be better served not even having a live fire component for a class like this.

There's many areas involved with armed self defense which many classes never cover,such as situational awareness among other subjects.

Plenty of places and people will teach you how to run your choice of gun-whatever it is- like a modern ninja. Not many places will teach you how to identify social cues you're being targeted for a crime,or how to give a concise & accurate verbal statements to authorities after a traumatic incident. Self defense doesn't end after the shooting- it ends after the case is adjudicated in the defenders favor.

[Poconnor]

Your right. Seperate the live fire. Gun safety and use of force are class room lessons. They can be taught by video and a question and answer period with a written test.

[ST911]

Your right. Seperate the live fire. Gun safety and use of force are class room lessons. They can be taught by video and a question and answer period with a written test.

Maybe if the NRA did a 2-part hybridized training design for Carry Guard, where students could enroll in an online training component, then meet with an instructor later for a hands-on/live fire session. That could be wildly popular with both instructors and students. :o

[Totem Polar]

This may sound sacrilegious to an extent,but they'd be better served not even having a live fire component for a class like this.

There's many areas involved with armed self defense which many classes never cover,such as situational awareness among other subjects.

Plenty of places and people will teach you how to run your choice of gun-whatever it is- like a modern ninja. Not many places will teach you how to identify social cues you're being targeted for a crime,or how to give a concise & accurate verbal statements to authorities after a traumatic incident. Self defense doesn't end after the shooting- it ends after the case is adjudicated in the defenders favor.

I can dig it. The NRA is a political organization now; render unto Caesar, and all that.


I've already got more vetted "applied" instructors/couses on my "to-do" list than I can afford to support.

[Drang]

Maybe if the NRA did a 2-part hybridized training design for Carry Guard, where students could enroll in an online training component, then meet with an instructor later for a hands-on/live fire session. That could be wildly popular with both instructors and students. :o

I'm wondering how many PF members don't know just how much like a fart in church NRA Training's hybridized training proposal went over with instructors.

[Cory]

I'm wondering how many PF members don't know just how much like a fart in church NRA Training's hybridized training proposal went over with instructors.

Im not an NRA member, nevermind an instructor. I would really like to hear how this is being received by NRA instructors. Any examples or sources about how it's recieved, positive or negative, would be interesting to hear.

-Cory

[Drang]

Im not an NRA member, nevermind an instructor. I would really like to hear how this is being received by NRA instructors. Any examples or sources about how it's recieved, positive or negative, would be interesting to hear.

-Cory

The idea was that the prospective student would do the training online and then show up in person to do any testing or hands on... Instructors basically refused to go along with it, and the idea was withdrawn.

[GardoneVT]

The idea was that the prospective student would do the training online and then show up in person to do any testing or hands on... Instructors basically refused to go along with it, and the idea was withdrawn.

Do you remember the stated objections to the proposal?

[JAD]

I've already got more vetted "applied" instructors/couses on my "to-do" list than I can afford to support.

No kidding. Shoot, my "get 'em while they're still warm" list is a mile long.

[Poconnor]

My guess it was rejected because of money. Instructors don't get paid for online instruction. When I went the NRA schools they didn't teach use of force. That was up to your department. They need state specific use of force videos. Teach gun safety, the use of force ( the when) then teach the how. Maybe they could start a new completion/ league. Simple IDPA type postal matches

[Poconnor]

I can see the NRA teaming up with the big outdoor chains like Cabela's. Imagine a classroom and a dedicated Prism training room for scenarios. It could be a good thing. But expensive. NRA tractor trailer mobile Prism / classroom

[Chance]

Taken from the link above

"JAMES JARRETT (ABD – ph.d.). MS...His education includes a Bachelor of Science, summa cum laud in Criminal Justice, a Master of Science degree in Justice Studies, and holds standing as (ABD-Ph.D.) in Law and Social Control"

Query for the Ph.D holders/active seekers here- where,if anywhere, is it customary to refer to yourself in the manner above?

....

Am I being too cynical?

Someone already commented on this, but it warrants re-iterating: I have never seen anyone try to pass ABD-PhD off as an actual credential. Some in-program PhD students might sign their emails with "PhD(C)", which means you've passed your comprehensive exam and are now a "PhD candidate," but that means zilch, and is usually just because they want to feel like they've accomplished something.

Most people wouldn't even bother to look up what "ABD" meant, although the guy does refer to himself as "Mr Jarrett" several times in his bio, so I couldn't accuse him of trying to make people think he was a doctor. Getting a PhD is a peculiar, brutal process, and it's not at all unusual to get to the very last stages and then not be able to finish due to something outside your control.

Still though, you either have the degree, or you don't. You can't self-identity as a doctor when your academic record says otherwise. For him to list that is weird at best, and potentially unethical at worst.

[GardoneVT]

Someone already commented on this, but it warrants re-iterating: I have never seen anyone try to pass ABD-PhD off as an actual credential. Some in-program PhD students might sign their emails with "PhD(C)", which means you've passed your comprehensive exam and are now a "PhD candidate," but that means zilch, and is usually just because they want to feel like they've accomplished something.

Most people wouldn't even bother to look up what "ABD" meant, although the guy does refer to himself as "Mr Jarrett" several times in his bio, so I couldn't accuse him of trying to make people think he was a doctor. Getting a PhD is a peculiar, brutal process, and it's not at all unusual to get to the very last stages and then not be able to finish due to something outside your control.

Still though, you either have the degree, or you don't. You can't self-identity as a doctor when your academic record says otherwise. For him to list that is weird at best, and potentially unethical at worst.

My title will henceforth be Mr GardoneVT , USSOCOM (ABI- All Completed but Indoc )

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's not illegitimate to say that you are going to school in a degree program. You see professional ads saying ABD's can apply and supply a time line for completion. However, if you are not ever going to finish - which is not uncommon - you can just mention number of credits completed.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As far as online instruction on the law, etc. and then a test - that might be ok for intro psych or English lit - but I don't like it.

When teaching deadly force, I'd prefer a quality instructor to be a touch of a filter for nut jobs by seeing them in person. I've had a couple of folks ask me about folks they have in class who were 'strange'.

[William B.]

The idea was that the prospective student would do the training online and then show up in person to do any testing or hands on... Instructors basically refused to go along with it, and the idea was withdrawn.

As far as I know, the online/in-person blended course is still available. What the NRA has done after the general unhappiness about the blended program is give instructors the option to host a blended class or in-person only class. The only NRA instructor I ever talked to who was a fan of the blended course was the Training Counselor who certified me.


Disallowing revolvers/1911's for the class except for a 40 round portion where it's then ok to use "carry guns/holsters" when the entire program is called CARRY guard, indicates you don't know what you're doing.

They've also given Basic Pistol instructors the option to do "semi-auto only" classes now.

[octagon]

Someone already commented on this, but it warrants re-iterating: I have never seen anyone try to pass ABD-PhD off as an actual credential. Some in-program PhD students might sign their emails with "PhD(C)", which means you've passed your comprehensive exam and are now a "PhD candidate," but that means zilch, and is usually just because they want to feel like they've accomplished something.

Most people wouldn't even bother to look up what "ABD" meant, although the guy does refer to himself as "Mr Jarrett" several times in his bio, so I couldn't accuse him of trying to make people think he was a doctor. Getting a PhD is a peculiar, brutal process, and it's not at all unusual to get to the very last stages and then not be able to finish due to something outside your control.

Still though, you either have the degree, or you don't. You can't self-identity as a doctor when your academic record says otherwise. For him to list that is weird at best, and potentially unethical at worst.

I know I commented on it previously as it raised my skeptical antenna from the start. I went back to his bio on his site and noticed that it doesn't mention a school. This makes it difficult to verify his current status and/or where he is in the process. If he is too far out from completing his dissertation he may not be eligible to finish it at all. If that is the case then using phd anywhere in his description of education is serious unethical other than in person saying I was ABD. The dissertation is THE key to the phd and the biggest difference from a masters and some extra courses. A lot of people have the credit hours to qualify for phd level of education but the self motivated self done research,compiling resources and first hand sources then writing AND defending your dissertation is what separates the wheat from the chaff. It will eventually come out what his status is. I hope it is just his less than clear way of stating he is still actively working on his phd dissertation within the timeline given to complete it.

[Poconnor]

It looks like fluff to me. But I'm a super critical asshole. But I believe use of force is too important for wanabes. I'm a big fan of the Prism simulator. You can run through dozens of scenarios in a few hours

[Chance]

The dissertation is THE key to the phd and the biggest difference from a masters and some extra courses. A lot of people have the credit hours to qualify for phd level of education but the self motivated self done research,compiling resources and first hand sources then writing AND defending your dissertation is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

It's a little murkier than that. For instance, he could have had an epic falling out with his PhD supervisor a week before his defense, and his supervisor wouldn't sign off on it. That kind of stuff is rare, but it happens: academia can devolve into an episode of 'Real Housewives' at the drop of a hat. Anyone's that gone through the process has dozens of horror stories about that sort of thing.

On the other hand, he could have finished his course work, passed his comprehensive exam(s), and then never decided on what his dissertation should be about. That happens pretty frequently: student and supervisor can't agree on what the thread of research needs to be about, so it never gets off the ground. Then there are plenty of students that just discover they don't want to do research and find something better to do with their time.

I doubt the guy's still in school, but who knows: he didn't provide enough information to clarify, and plenty of folks head back to school to finish what they started later in life.

[Clusterfrack]

In my program, ABDs failing to finish their PhD were typically granted a Masters.

[Poconnor]

When I googled Jarrett so much been there done that came up that I am highly skeptical. Usually when I meet somebody that bounced around so much they just couldn't fit in. I'd like to hear from people who actually worked with him. I don't like attacking anyone unless I have direct knowledge but I am concerned because I don't want the CCW movement to get a black eye.

[Chance]

In my program, ABDs failing to finish their PhD were typically granted a Masters.

Looks like he already had one, but it doesn't say what university it was, and the same institution wouldn't have granted him one twice.

Anyways, I don't want to completely dismiss the dude based on that one thing. He seems to have a legit background.

[LorenzoS]

The majority of people with CCW's have never taken and do not intend to take formal training. If the NRA can use it's position to deliver mediocre training to the masses then it's still a big improvement over the current state.

[Ed L]

Maybe if the NRA did a 2-part hybridized training design for Carry Guard, where students could enroll in an online training component, then meet with an instructor later for a hands-on/live fire session. That could be wildly popular with both instructors and students. :o

The problem is there is no guarantee the the student will do the online training or pay attention to it even if they scroll through the screens.

[Ed L]

I've already got more vetted "applied" instructors/couses on my "to-do" list than I can afford to support.

And that is exactly it.

The instructors who teach this class are going to be NRA qualified instructors. They may be good for teaching basic safety, gunhandling, and basic home defense and street defense for people who have no experience; but I am sure they will pale in comparison to the highly regarded trainers who populate this forum, as well as those who the members of this forum make journey's to train with.

[LorenzoS]

And that is exactly it.

The instructors who teach this class are going to be NRA qualified instructors. They may be good for teaching basic safety, gunhandling, and basic home defense and street defense for people who have no experience; but I am sure they will pale in comparison to the highly regarded trainers who populate this forum, as well as those who the members of this forum make journey's to train with.

That's the point. Enthusiasts on this forum are used to Keens, but the NRA is creating the McDonalds of training.

McDonalds didn't scale by hiring knowledgeable and experienced chefs. They scaled by creating a simple, standardized and idiot proof menu that unmotivated high school kids can follow without screwing up. If the NRA wants to roll out a training program to thousands of low quality instructors, they have to make the curriculum as simple as possible. If that means eliminating revolvers and 1911's then so be it, perhaps they can expand their menu in the future once version 1.0 is up and running.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Back to the ABD - I took quals to continue to the dissertation. If you failed them, you were given a terminal master's for your course work. If you truly are ABD and working on your degree, there is an easy test - we had to register in a class for dissertation credit. Meaning you were signed up to work on your dissertation with your chair. So, if a person is ABD - are they registered for such a dissertation class (not a real class but an indication of working status).

About the NRA - I'm troubled that this is really just a money making scheme - insurance and classes for a buck. Some of the other 'insurance' folks have protested that this isn't really the NRA's mission. Sure, they had classes and instructor classes before but it wasn't big business.

Why should I contribute to a profit making business? I don't contribute to Microsoft. Yes, the ILA is supposedly separate but it's hard to see the difference in organization mission.

I also, as mentioned before, see risk in teaching more 'combat' oriented classes. We've seen a few cases where training as been brought up at trial. If someone goes through the Carry Guard classes and then goes nuts - that would be a major negative hit on the NRA as compared to their current rather bland classes.

The risk that they become a national mandated standard is something to be looked at. The antis push for insurance and training - good ideas in the free market. But if the national advocacy organization sells such - how can you argue against a government mandate - maybe in concern with them?

[Stephanie B]

It's a little murkier than that. For instance, he could have had an epic falling out with his PhD supervisor a week before his defense, and his supervisor wouldn't sign off on it. That kind of stuff is rare, but it happens: academia can devolve into an episode of 'Real Housewives' at the drop of a hat. Anyone's that gone through the process has dozens of horror stories about that sort of thing.

You'd think that, after Theodore Streleski beat his thesis advisor to death, academics would taper off on being dicks.

Have you ever seen those wooden chairs that they sell in college bookstores which have the school's seal on them? When I was in law school, a new dean took over. A few months into his tenure, two professors were awarded chaired professorships. The new dean thought that it would be a nice touch, at the ceremony to give them actual chairs. And so he did.

The existing chaired professors lost their goddamned minds over that. One of the other non-chaired professors told me about that, and I responded along the lines of "well, maybe they should just grow the fuck up."

(There were some real advantages to going back to school as a retread student. One of them was that there was a recognition that petty crap wasn't going to be tolerated.)

[Clusterfrack]

I wonder if this NRA program hints at coming nationwide reciprocity legislation?

[TDA]

I have to say, I have no handle at all on what's going on here.

http://graphics.nra.org/online_store/CGE2017/CGE2017_membershipemail.html

[Drang]

I have to say, I have no handle at all on what's going on here.

http://graphics.nra.org/online_store/CGE2017/CGE2017_membershipemail.html

You mean aside from "After ripping of USCCA we're going to rub salt in the wound by having our expo ion their home town"?

[Ed L]

On the twitter (@NRAblog) they posted that they will now allow any handgun that can safely hold 6 rounds.

I can't wait to see someone show up at one of their classes with the Taurus Judge.

Here is a question--can anyone take the carryguard classes or are they reserved for people who buy carryguard insurance?

[GardoneVT]

On the twitter (@NRAblog) they posted that they will now allow any handgun that can safely hold 6 rounds.

I can't wait to see someone show up at one of their classes with the Taurus Judge.


That was exactly the point of the outcry, and another reason why the NRA shouldn't be doing live fire training on this scale.
Theyre gonna get a firing line where 70% the class will be some kind of SFA and the other 30% will be carrying everything from cap and ball revolvers to Judges to PT1911s to HiPoints. Can't turn anyone away because it's the NRA,so if they send the students with cast zinc revolvers home it'll be a PR shitstorm.

[Chance]

I have to say, I have no handle at all on what's going on here.

http://graphics.nra.org/online_store/CGE2017/CGE2017_membershipemail.html

So NRA wants you to think your carry guard instructor is right up there with Joyce, Jeff, and Steve? I just went from having reservations to having the heebie jeebies.

[Amp]

1911s and revolvers are ok now:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/06/daniel-zimmerman/nra-changes-carry-guard-training-policy-allows-1911s-revolvers/

[Ed L]

That was exactly the point of the outcry, and another reason why the NRA shouldn't be doing live fire training on this scale.
Theyre gonna get a firing line where 70% the class will be some kind of SFA and the other 30% will be carrying everything from cap and ball revolvers to Judges to PT1911s to HiPoints. Can't turn anyone away because it's the NRA,so if they send the students with cast zinc revolvers home it'll be a PR shitstorm.

You would definitely see guns that none of the members of this forum would bring to class or even own. Depending on the instructor/Instructor assistant/student ratio, having someone with a problem child gun could really slow up the class.

I imagine that they would have to make a disclaimer/statement that the gun should hold at least 6 rounds and be solid and reliable enough for a three day class where X number of rounds of ammo is fired.

But here is another thing to consider, they are charging $850 for the class. At that price alone I would think you would cut out a lot of people with cheaper guns. Someone who buys a gun for $200 isn't likely to take an $850 class--which I believe is the price they are wanting for a the three day class.

I think the NRA is fine on offering more basic classes like the personal protection classes listed on the bottom of this webpage: https://firearmtraining.nra.org/student-courses/. Most of those classes look to be 1 day or in some cases a day and a half and require 100-250 rounds of ammo. From the descriptions they are starting from the very basics and spend a lot of time on lecture of things participants on this board would take to be second nature. It also looks like I think this is within the ability of the NRA to certify sufficient numbers of basic instructors to teach these classes.

Their Carryguard class, on the other hand, looks like a much more sophisticated class that would be hard to mass produce qualified instructors.

But here is the kicker, in looking over the Carryguard website it appears that the Carryguard 3 day course is only available to people who purchase Carryguard insurance and not for the general public or general members as it states: "The NRA Carry Guard Membership is the most complete product available for those who carry firearms. In addition to NRA Carry Guard training and education resources, it includes insurance protection for certain losses resulting from an act of self-defense while using a legally possessed firearm." So I don't think we will see the hoards of gunowners rushing to take the class since the Carryguard training classes seem to be set up as a perk or enticement for members of their Carryguard insurance program.

Also, Marty Hayes, who is a member of this board and also runs Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, posted a well thought out letter to the NRA on the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network Website: https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/open-letter-to-nra

[Stephanie B]

Theyre gonna get a firing line where 70% the class will be some kind of SFA and the other 30% will be carrying everything from cap and ball revolvers to Judges to PT1911s to HiPoints.
Doing that deliberately would just be evil.



Sent from my NSA-approved tracking device using Tapatalk whilst awaiting my case to be called.

[HCM]

Surprise, surprise, surprise....

Update: NRA changes Carry Guard policy on 1911s, revolvers

http://www.guns.com/2017/06/22/update-nra-changes-carry-guard-policy-on-1911s-revolvers/

[Peally]

I don't expect the same NRA that still teaches you to wait 30 seconds for a handgun hangfire to do this well at all.

[Zincwarrior]

My guess is that their course of fire is geared to guns with high capacity magazines--hence no 1911s. I guess they never thought it out and realized that one can use a 1911 and carry more magazines.

As for no revolvers--revolvers hold less rounds than a 1911, and would not be able to keep up with the course of fire. I also imagine that their overall instruction is geared toward automatics and it would take way too much time away from the class to teach someone the complicated operation of cylinder release and a speedloader--right????

Wow, for the NRA to not let 1911s or revolvers in a class designed for concealed carry is just stepping on a part of their anatomy. I mean no 1911s, considering some of the well known people who said positive things about this class are known for 1911s???

They really did not think this through. My guess is that they let whoever design this class design it without considering who they are marketing it to.
I like the Michael Bay movie promo style of the on site video though. It needs more Baysplosions though.

[Clusterfrack]

I just joined ACLDN.

[11B10]

I just joined ACLDN.



In my well-researched opinion, you've made a very smart decision.

[Ed L]

I just joined ACLDN.

This whole Carryguard insurance got me to do some investigating. As an end result, I too joined ACLDN.

[HCM]

Chubb, the insurance company underwriting the NRA's carry guard insurance is dropping the account.

Chubb severs ties with NRA

https://m.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/chubb-severs-ties-with-nra-93285.aspx

[blues]

Chubb, the insurance company underwriting the NRA's carry guard insurance is dropping the account.

Chubb severs ties with NRA

https://m.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/news/breaking-news/chubb-severs-ties-with-nra-93285.aspx

Another in a long list of reasons to opt for membership in the ACLDN...they're self insured and don't rely on weak kneed corporate underwriting.

[idahojess]

So this is interesting, sort of ...

New York State fines an insurance brokerage $7 million for participating in the Carry Guard program.

"A DFS investigation found that the NRA Carry Guard insurance program provided insurance to gun owners for acts of intentional wrongdoing, and improperly provided insurance coverage for criminal defense. "


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockton-nra/new-york-regulators-fine-lockton-7-million-for-selling-nra-insurance-program-idUSKBN1I32GP

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's interesting. How did they know that the program was for intentional wrong doing? Doesn't that have to be determined by a trial for the action involved?

Not a fan of the NRA program. Nor do I buy their wine. ACDL for me.

Since I am not a lawyer, I don't get it. When I had administrative responsibilities I took out a malpractice policy from the AAUP in case a personnel decision went south. Was that admitting I made bad decisions?

However, if the NRA needed some license to offer the program in NY and didn't have it - then they are flat out stupid.

[HCM]

That's interesting. How did they know that the program was for intentional wrong doing? Doesn't that have to be determined by a trial for the action involved?

Not a fan of the NRA program. Nor do I buy their wine. ACDL for me.

Since I am not a lawyer, I don't get it. When I had administrative responsibilities I took out a malpractice policy from the AAUP in case a personnel decision went south. Was that admitting I made bad decisions?

However, if the NRA needed some license to offer the program in NY and didn't have it - then they are flat out stupid.

This was a targeted political action against the NRA- they are intentionally misinterpreting to serve Cuomo’s anti gun politics.


State urges banks, insurers to stop doing business with gun industry

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/state-urges-banks-insurers-stop-biz-gun-industry-article-1.3939919

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would agree with that

[Ed L]

From my understanding, you had to buy their carryguard insurance to be able to take their carryguard classes.

Now, before I write anything else I am a huge fan of the NRA in terms of their activities and size in protecting our 2nd amendment rights. But I still consider them a huge largely unresponsive bureaucracy. Though I am a member, and frequent contributor to their ILA and Pol Victory Fund, they do not have my phone number.

As I said before, my concern about them is that if you bought one level of carryguard you would be bombarded with constant phonecalls to upgrade at a discount.

I recently got an example of this when I had to call them because I had some issues preregistering for the NRA convention which it turns out I will not likely be able to attend.

The guy would not let me off the line without mentioning this offer or that offer. I said to him, "You're just not going to let me say goodbye and wish you a nice weekend without bring up one offer or another, are you?"

I informed him that if the NRA did not send out so much mail including premature renewal memberships before people's memberships were up they would probably have more members--because a lot of people start throwing out all of the mail they get from the NRA, and never see the real membership renewal form, and thus never renew. I then wished him a nice weekend and tried to say goodbye, at which time he hit me up with another offer--a discount to become an endowment member.

So I finally told him to shut the Fuck up and listen. I warned him that if I got one more offer from him I will be calling my credit card company and telling them to decline a recent payment for a life membership because it was done under fraudulent circumstances (long story there) . Then I finally asked, "Now are we done?" He answered the affirmative and wished me a good weekend.

[Drang]

So this is interesting, sort of ...

New York State fines an insurance brokerage $7 million for participating in the Carry Guard program.

"A DFS investigation found that the NRA Carry Guard insurance program provided insurance to gun owners for acts of intentional wrongdoing, and improperly provided insurance coverage for criminal defense. "


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockton-nra/new-york-regulators-fine-lockton-7-million-for-selling-nra-insurance-program-idUSKBN1I32GP

So much for demands that gun owners be required to have insurance...







Just kidding. I am not so naïve to think this will have nay impact on any unreasonable restrictions on our Constitutional Rights.

[RoyGBiv]

So much for demands that gun owners be required to have insurance...
NY: Gun owners must have insurance.
.....
NY: Selling insurance to gun owners is illegal!

#Cuomonundrum (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Cuomonundrum)

[Boxy]

Checking the Carry Guard Class schedule - there is none. Go figure. A lot of hype and advertising. Where is training?

[Ed L]

There is no requirement for NY gunowners to have insurance--though some antigunners would like to do it as yet another oblique method of guncontrol.

If they are going to do so they should require criminals to maintain liability insurance as a condition to stay out of prison, since they are infinitely more likely to commit a crime than the average gunowner.

[Ed L]

Checking the Carry Guard Class schedule - there is none. Go figure. A lot of hype and advertising. Where is training?

It was a badly thought out program.

The idea was to sell CCW and firearm use insurance and if you bought that insurance you would be eligible to take the classes. It was designed as an incentive to buy the insurance.

The carry insurance never was a big hit and then had problems with the insurance company's cancelling and hitting regulatory snags.

From: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockton-nra/new-york-regulators-fine-lockton-7-million-for-selling-nra-insurance-program-idUSKBN1I32GP

" The Department of Financial Services said the NRA does not have a license from the agency to conduct insurance business in New York. It said the NRA marketed and solicited for the “Carry Guard” program through a website, email, and direct mail."

I wonder if they applied the same scrutiny to AARP when they offer various insurance products like Medicare supplemental insurance.

The whole issue is how they offered it.

If you called the NRA to buy this insurance, were you talking to a licensed insurance salesman or where you talking to one of their phone reps? If you did reach a phone rep, did they transfer you to a licensed insurance salesman?

Anyway, according to the article "Lockton had issued 680 Carry Guard insurance policies to New York residents between April and November 2017, the DFS said." This is not an overwhelming success considering that New York State has almost 20 million residents--with at least 2 million gun owners, of which about 40,000 of them are NRA members according to the NRA.

[Drang]

There is no requirement for NY gunowners to have insurance--though some antigunners would like to do it as yet another oblique method of guncontrol.

If they are going to do so they should require criminals to maintain liability insurance as a condition to stay out of prison, since they are infinitely more likely to commit a crime than the average gunowner.

The point that RoyGBiv and I were making was that the gun grabbers often try and demand that gun owners have insurance, but now that insurance has been declared illegal.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Karl Rehn's NRA convention report with an embedded section on Carry Guard - not to positive. Funny comments on fashion advice:

http://blog.krtraining.com/2018-nra-annual-meeting-dallas-texas-aar/