Open Carry: What is the law enforcement perspective?

[LearnedHat]

Removed post pursuant to expressed objection

[voodoo_man]

Stop please, for the love god.

[LearnedHat]

okay - I was interested but I will ask somewhere else.

[Malamute]

Google is your friend.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%22open+carry%22+site:pistol-forum.com&spf=68


Some topics become like the dry heaves.

[LearnedHat]

Google is your friend.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%22open+carry%22+site:pistol-forum.com&spf=68


Some topics become like the dry heaves.

Are there some particular LE posters I should look for in those posts? It was hard to really tell what active LE thinks

[Malamute]

Many have the black with blue line tags around their names. Many also describe their thoughts and experiences in the posts, from the context its not difficult to tell LE people.

[Jason M]

This active LE thinks it foolish because:

1 creates a stir for no strategic gain
2 unsound tactically
3 presents an unarmed bad guy with an opportunity to become armed
4 presents an opportunity for conflict between the pro/anti gun folks

IMHO....cover that shit up!

Was that what you were looking for?

[blues]

Retired nobody here but I'm with Jason. I'll only open carry if I'm woods walking (on my own) or occasionally with the dog late at night on our unlit, forested gravel road.

By and large most folks I come across who are open carrying make my hair stand up. I mean no insult to those who take their right to do so seriously...but it makes me uncomfortable when I think how easily the firearm can be prey to a snatch or worse.

[LearnedHat]

This active LE thinks it foolish because:

1 creates a stir for no strategic gain
2 unsound tactically
3 presents an unarmed bad guy with an opportunity to become armed
4 presents an opportunity for conflict between the pro/anti gun folks

IMHO....cover that shit up!

Was that what you were looking for?


Yes

[jlw]

There are over 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the United States and over one million cops. We are not monolithic. Just as there are Baptist, Methodist, Episcopals, etc, in the Christian faith, there are different perspectives and ways of doing things among cops. Ever heard of Shiite and Sunni folks blowing each other up? Why, aren't they all Islamic? How could they see things differently?

[DocGKR]

Well said:


"1 creates a stir for no strategic gain
2 unsound tactically
3 presents an unarmed bad guy with an opportunity to become armed
4 presents an opportunity for conflict between the pro/anti gun folks

IMHO....cover that shit up! "

[LearnedHat]

There are over 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the United States and over one million cops. We are not monolithic. Just as there are Baptist, Methodist, Episcopals, etc, in the Christian faith, there are different perspectives and ways of doing things among cops. Ever heard of Shiite and Sunni folks blowing each other up? Why, aren't they all Islamic? How could they see things differently?

What makes you think that I expected to get only one opinion? I figured I have my starting point, would get some input from people with a different perspective, do my best to sort through the BS, look for well reasoned positions, and allow my own thoughts to evolve through the process.

[jlw]

What makes you think that I expected to get only one opinion? I figured I have my starting point, would get some input from people with a different perspective, do my best to sort through the BS, look for well reasoned positions, and allow my own thoughts to evolve through the process.


You wrote "the law enforcement perspective". That is singular language. "What are perspectives among law enforcement officers?" or something similar would have been plural.

I hope you have a wonderful day.

[psalms144.1]

This active LE thinks it foolish because:

1 creates a stir for no strategic gain
2 unsound tactically
3 presents an unarmed bad guy with an opportunity to become armed
4 presents an opportunity for conflict between the pro/anti gun folks

IMHO....cover that shit up!

Was that what you were looking for?I couldn't agree more with every one of these points. If you can carry concealed, and choose to carry openly, I consider that damn near a provocation. It's certainly "LOOK AT ME" behavior with no upside. You WILL NOT convince anti-gunners to become gun rights supporters by openly displaying your firearm. You may well cause them to panic and over react, which could lead to "man with a gun" interaction with my uniformed brothers. No matter how "right" you are, this can be a BAD THING (TM). As JLW posted, LE response is not going to always be the same - if you get a frightened, anti-gun officer responding to the aforementioned call, the chance for a very bad result is very high.

Of course there are exceptions - openly carrying on private property, in back country (where legal), etc. That's not what I'm talking about, or what I believe you're asking about. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

[Jason M]

It's certainly "LOOK AT ME" behavior with no upside. .

Nail on the head material right there!

[drjaydvm]

Would owb covered by a garment (jacket, sweatshirt, etc) be considered open carry?

[WobblyPossum]

Would owb covered by a garment (jacket, sweatshirt, etc) be considered open carry?

No. If the person is covering the gun then it's concealed carry.


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[voodoo_man]

This active LE thinks it foolish because:

1 creates a stir for no strategic gain
2 unsound tactically
3 presents an unarmed bad guy with an opportunity to become armed
4 presents an opportunity for conflict between the pro/anti gun folks

IMHO....cover that shit up!

Was that what you were looking for?

Yes, this.

Basically what I said just nicer.

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party in this thread . I first wrote this on another forum in 2010. I stand by it today. I would note that no trainer of note recommends open carry when CC is permitted. YMMV greatly.


"Other than on a range during some types of formal training-NO OPEN CARRY. I see no reason to give up a potential tactical advantage.

Many "bad guys" are not deterred by uniformed PD in the slightest. A civilian is likely to be rather unimpressive as well.

Retention is a significant issue such that if you are running with retention, any presentation advantage in terms of time is greatly mitigated v. running concealed without any type of rentention.

IMHO, I think they is a subset of those who OC who want to be accorded the "treatment" and "respect" of being viewed as a LEO, despite often not having earned LEO status.

With regard to the personal liberty issues, I fully recognize that you have the right to open carry in many jusridictions. You may also have the right to walk down Main Street at Midnight in a suit made from 20.00 dollars bills-just because you you have the right to do it does not make it a smart idea."

[Gadfly]

It's certainly "LOOK AT ME" behavior with no upside. You WILL NOT convince anti-gunners to become gun rights supporters by openly displaying your firearm.

THIS^^

Open carry is not a practical act, it is a "NOTICE ME, LOOK AT ME, FEAR ME, ME, ME, MEEEEEEEEE" act. I get its your right. But many do it just to piss off the Anti's. You're not helping. In many cases it is rude, and it serves no purpose other than to piss people off. Wearing a "rock out with your cock out" T shirt at a spring break beach party? Socially acceptable. Wearing the same shirt to your Grandma's funeral? It may be legal and your "right", but its rude and not socially acceptable. Just like the T shirt example, OC your piece at a gun show, or on a hunting trip. Places where its considered socially acceptable. The checkout line at CVS or Chipotle is not socially acceptable.

OC is the fashion equivalent of Ed Hardy or Affliction shirts. "Look how tough I am"...

Side note: I have not seen many folks OC in Houston. But, I would say that if I was a crook, I could have easily taken most OC guns I have seen. Very EASILY. And even if you are some big Vin Diesel looking guy, and I want your OC gun, I will just order a scalding cup of coffee... Then I throw it in your face, and take your gun from the Fobus or Uncle Mikes holster, as you roll on the floor, blind and screaming. Or, If I am a crook intent on a robbery, you would get the first bullet. Then I have two guns... Crooks are dumb, but not as dumb as some OC folks seem to think.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not being a LEO but I feel OC has had unintended consequences in TX.

1. Hardly anyone does it. I've never seen in the big cities. A friend saw it once in Bandera, TX (a small town). Once.

2. TX had allowed businesses to ban carry with an old sign (commonly called the ghostbuster). The next legislative session changed it to the 30.06 sign which was a truly obnoxious large sign. This was discourage it being posted. Posting businesses is encouraged by folks like Bloomberg to make carry functionally useless. Spare me the mantra that if a place bans, you won't go in. That might be possible with the small number of 30.06 locations.

3. However, OC led to the 30.07 sign - equally large and obnoxious. Many businesses found OC so obnoxious that they posted the large 30.07s. Worse, they felt if they could do the 30.07 signs might as well do the 30.06 also as a pair. Antigunners distributed both for free to businesses. There are quite a few locations that did both and many with the 30.07s. Thus, this is a great practical negative for the few posturing folks who want to look like a tacticool commando.

4. I've had folks tell me that if you OC you should train in retention. Of course, retention training is a good idea but in my mind that is for close in encounters that evolve out of a fight. Retention training is useless against a planned targeted attack for the gun. This has happened. One guy told me that he had retention training. He expects me to walk up to him face to face and say: Hello, I will take your gun now!
I said that if I want your gun, I might simple shoot you or my buddy will distract you as I stab you repeatedly for the free gun. Duh!

5. I fear if we get Constitutional carry there will be a terrific wave of total ban signs. I've had 30.07 businesses say that they don't mind CCW but feel that OC is not OK with many of their customers.

6. All the 30.07 signs give a message to those not in the gun choir that carrying guns is bad. A kid might think that just as they might think a no smoking sign implies smoking is bad.

This is a case where the theoretical right (sure it should be legal) leads to correlated negatives. If you forbid business bans (Property rights, my castle, blah, blah - hey, the government says that you have to a clean toilet in your restaurant, is that Constitutional?). Again, the property rights mantra is used against carry by Bloomberg. In TX, they are trying to get rid of the obnoxious size of the signs. Do that and we will see many more of them. Funded by Bloomberg.

So I have no use of posturing that leads pragmatically to loss of usable carry abilities. Not an LEO perspective but that's life.

[JohnO]

Open Carry. It's for the Range and also when your in your Birthday Suit.

[LearnedHat]

Not being a LEO but I feel OC has had unintended consequences in TX.

1. Hardly anyone does it. I've never seen in the big cities. A friend saw it once in Bandera, TX (a small town). Once.

2. TX had allowed businesses to ban carry with an old sign (commonly called the ghostbuster). The next legislative session changed it to the 30.06 sign which was a truly obnoxious large sign. This was discourage it being posted. Posting businesses is encouraged by folks like Bloomberg to make carry functionally useless. Spare me the mantra that if a place bans, you won't go in. That might be possible with the small number of 30.06 locations.

3. However, OC led to the 30.07 sign - equally large and obnoxious. Many businesses found OC so obnoxious that they posted the large 30.07s. Worse, they felt if they could do the 30.07 signs might as well do the 30.06 also as a pair. Antigunners distributed both for free to businesses. There are quite a few locations that did both and many with the 30.07s. Thus, this is a great practical negative for the few posturing folks who want to look like a tacticool commando.

4. I've had folks tell me that if you OC you should train in retention. Of course, retention training is a good idea but in my mind that is for close in encounters that evolve out of a fight. Retention training is useless against a planned targeted attack for the gun. This has happened. One guy told me that he had retention training. He expects me to walk up to him face to face and say: Hello, I will take your gun now!
I said that if I want your gun, I might simple shoot you or my buddy will distract you as I stab you repeatedly for the free gun. Duh!

5. I fear if we get Constitutional carry there will be a terrific wave of total ban signs. I've had 30.07 businesses say that they don't mind CCW but feel that OC is not OK with many of their customers.

6. All the 30.07 signs give a message to those not in the gun choir that carrying guns is bad. A kid might think that just as they might think a no smoking sign implies smoking is bad.

This is a case where the theoretical right (sure it should be legal) leads to correlated negatives. If you forbid business bans (Property rights, my castle, blah, blah - hey, the government says that you have to a clean toilet in your restaurant, is that Constitutional?). Again, the property rights mantra is used against carry by Bloomberg. In TX, they are trying to get rid of the obnoxious size of the signs. Do that and we will see many more of them. Funded by Bloomberg.

So I have no use of posturing that leads pragmatically to loss of usable carry abilities. Not an LEO perspective but that's life.

I've actually seen it more and more. Probably a couple of dozen times in the last few months. Dairy Queen, Lowes, State Parks, casual restaurants, gas stations, etc. Could have been plain clothes guys but the rigs didn't look the part. Ages ranged from 40-70. Living on the west side of DFW and spending quite a bit of time in Temple, Waco, Midland, and San Antonio might put me in higher density . . . don't know. It hasn't bothered me yet because my preconceived notion is that a guy with a nice gun in an OWB holster isn't about the hit the Sack N Sudz but it is still weird to see it.

[Totem Polar]

Not LE, but I think our own Tamara once had a great phrase for putting a point on it:

"There is a difference between carrying a gun, and carrying a gun at people." Roughly.

OC is objectively retarded, tactically.

[blues]

Not LE, but I think our own Tamara once had a great phrase for putting a point on it:

"There is a difference between carrying a gun, and carrying a gun at people." Roughly.

OC is objectively retarded, tactically.


15832

"I'd like to meet the man who thinks he can get the drop on me."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm glad that Dairy Queen is a preferred feeding trough for OC. Seems to be working for the guy in blues photo. Or the larger of the Chipolte twins.

Interesting to survey the OC folks and ask them their level of training. I did see a bunch of OC Glocks on a table full of gold shield dressed up women at a fancy restaurant once.

[TheNewbie]

I have no problem with the OP starting this thread.

OC has a purpose when hiking or woods walking under certain conditions. However I find that it truly is a LOOK AT ME behavior and engaged in by insecure/emotional goofs way too often. While I like the idea of OC being legal, I wish people would choose to engage in it judiciously and wisely. Those two things are seldom employed in decision making.

[BillSWPA]

If my goal is to bring people to our side of the gun debate, I would prefer that people get to know me before they learn I carry a gun, so that they view gun ownership and carrying through what they know of me. If they were to see an openly carried gun first, they will make assumptions about me based on what they think they know about guns, and any opportunity to persuade them is lost.

Many of us could name at least a couple of businesses that had never instituted a "no guns' policy, but did so after open-carry supporters started frequenting those establishments.

In Pennsylvania, with a concealed gun, I have the option of ignoring a "no guns" sign. While I prefer to give my money to businesses without these signs, I also ignore them on a regular basis. With an openly carried gun, that may not be so easy.

Being known as the wierdo openly carrying a gun is not going to help your or your family's social or professional standing in the community.

While I appreciate the enthusiasm of some open carry types for the second amendment, I would prefer that their enthusiasm be matched by some critical thought about the best way to support that cause. They are doing far more damage than good.

[JCS]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/39befb7ae51c5a2f3a7de522af8bf135.jpg

This made me lol
This is not directed at anyone!

[Joe in PNG]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/39befb7ae51c5a2f3a7de522af8bf135.jpg

This made me lol
This is not directed at anyone!

Serpa!- check.
XD- check.
Dress belt- check.

[GardoneVT]

Im not a cop, not even on Halloween, but my civilian self will nonetheless debunk every idea commonly asserted to be positive benefits of open carry. List sourced here (http://www.readthespirit.com/ourvalues/open-carry-first-5-good-reasons/).

Deterrence. Gun-rights activists often cite deterrence as a good reason to openly carry a firearm in public. Open carry makes you (and those around you) safer because would-be attackers or criminals will avoid a person with a firearm.

Nope. If im a would-be attacker and shopping for a gun, its much easier to just tap an OC'er on the shoulder , and ask politely where the nearest tire shop is while closing personal space . As the OC'er processes the the query, the attacher merely seizes the openly presented fiream and does what one will with it. Depending on the holster position -especially OC crossdraw- this can be done rather quick. If the would- be attacker is less socially polished, they'll just bean the OC'er ( hereafter named Walking GunRack) in the head with an object at hand and finish the firearm removal process.

Then there's the John Dillenger approach - point a functional looking gun at the Walking GunRack, and relieve them of the openly displayed weapon.


2.Exercising your rights. The Second Amendment grants the right for private individuals to keep and bear arms. The right is jeopardized if it isn’t exercised.

No pro-gun law in recorded American history has been passed because of mass carrying of openly worn pistols. The legislative gains we've experienced have been because of hard work by citizens and subject matter experts to influence representative democracy. That's a long way of saying the right is jepordized by civic laziness, not open carry.


3.Making a statement. Given the controversy about open carry, wearing a holstered handgun in public is a political statement


No argument here. It's a statement that guns are toys carried by irresponsible and socially uncouth people in need of government regulation and attention. That's not a statement which benefits the 2nd Amendment.

4.Speedy defense. It’s faster to draw a pistol that is openly carried, compared to one that is concealed. Instead of fumbling around for your concealed handgun, you can quickly defend yourself with an openly carried weapon.

It's especially quick to draw for an attacker looking for a weapon, as covered in Section 1. Personal anecdote time -once I ordered food at an Los Angeles eatery and noticed an armed security guard waiting for his order. He turned his back to me for a solid four minutes as he filled up a drink ; during which time I could have relieved him of his right hand holstered XD 9mm . I know it was a 9mm, because I got close enough to him to read the slide of the gun without any reaction. When a 6'1" muscular man is in close proximity to your gun side and its a surprise, that's not good for your health or those around you.

Note that he was an armed security guard, a man who by profession and the local laws likely had no choice but to carry in such a way. An openly carried gun is a great way to make oneself a target.


5.Normalizing weapons. Wearing a handgun in public is also intended to “desensitize” the public, as open-carry enthusiasts often say. Today, many people are alarmed at the sight of a private citizen wearing a handgun. Once desensitized, weapons become normal.

Firearms are tools with multiple purposes, but their primary one is well understood by all - they are martial weapons capable of greivous injury or death. Most folks across the world regardless of background understand this. That fact makes people uncomfortable, just like nunchucks , knives and Katana blades make folks uncomfortable. No amount of toting arms at Subway is going to undermine that martial fact, and assuming so is like saying that yelling the word "FUCK" in every church across the land will normalize it for polite conversation. Its not gonna happen.


As such, I submit "open carry" should be called "Samaritan Carry", because all it does is offer the thugs a tax-deductible gun donation for their felonious plans.

[critter]

No LEO experience here (though I did stay at the LEO Family Inn Express a few nights ago). Public 'citizen' OC is patently dumb for a variety of mostly obvious reasons. Of course, driving is a different scenario. While driving, in an effort to dissuade car-jacking, I literally open carry in each hand, using the bangy ends to manipulate the steering wheel. It's an acquired skill.

[Ed L]

Not being a LEO but I feel OC has had unintended consequences in TX.

3. However, OC led to the 30.07 sign - equally large and obnoxious. Many businesses found OC so obnoxious that they posted the large 30.07s. Worse, they felt if they could do the 30.07 signs might as well do the 30.06 also as a pair. Antigunners distributed both for free to businesses. There are quite a few locations that did both and many with the 30.07s. Thus, this is a great practical negative for the few posturing folks who want to look like a tacticool commando.

5. I fear if we get Constitutional carry there will be a terrific wave of total ban signs. I've had 30.07 businesses say that they don't mind CCW but feel that OC is not OK with many of their customers.


The following two points are the ones that really worry me--the negative consequences.

I don't want constitutional carry. I like having my CCW license which allows reciprocity in certain states.

I would rather have a license that allows me to carry than rely on constitutional carry, which some future government might rescind and decide that one must get a license to carry.

[walker2713]

Just because you may do something, doesn't mean you should.

I think my Mother told me that.....

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Excellent point. In San Antonio, you are legally dressed as a male if you cover your genitals and anus. We had a guy who would wear a flesh colored thong and bicycle around the richy-richy, hipster neighborhoods. It was legal. The guy was mentally ill and eventually killed himself.

So it is also legal to walk around with a AR. So if Mister Thong slung an AR and decided to walk down the street when the school bus was leaving off kids on your block, would you shout HIP,HIP, Hurray for the RKBA and free expression of the human body or would you call the law?

Silly conjecture but the theoretical extreme proofs the rule and it's pragmatic application.

Go wear that outfit in Dairy Queen. Or try it at Ruth Chris' steak house. I'm tired of folks who see OC in Crapcake, TX while the application screws up major venues.

[RJ]

Excellent point. In San Antonio, you are legally dressed as a male if you cover your genitals and anus. We had a guy who would wear a flesh colored thong and bicycle around the richy-richy, hipster neighborhoods. It was legal. The guy was mentally ill and eventually killed himself.

So it is also legal to walk around with a AR. So if Mister Thong slung an AR and decided to walk down the street when the school bus was leaving off kids on your block, would you shout HIP,HIP, Hurray for the RKBA and free expression of the human body or would you call the law?

Silly conjecture but the theoretical extreme proofs the rule and it's pragmatic application.

Go wear that outfit in Dairy Queen. Or try it at Ruth Chris' steak house. I'm tired of folks who see OC in Crapcake, TX while the application screws up major venues.

We've been basically touring Texas for a month or so in our RV, and I've not actually seen anyone open carry. This includes Houston, Aransas Pass, Corpus, San Antonio, New Braunfels, Fredericksburg, and Weatherford (West of FW).

PS Austin is weird.


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[FNFAN]

You'll find opinions vary wildly. Anything from, "Good for you!" to "You don't show me yours, and I won't show you mine," to "When I come upon an armed citizen I always want to know why they're carrying; I always run the gun to see if it's stolen and I give it back to them disassembled."

Just last week in the comments section of a supposedly vetted LE forum, there was a response that regardless of legal authority any time the 'officer' spots open carry he will stop and clear the person and the weapon.:(

[BillSWPA]

Excellent point. In San Antonio, you are legally dressed as a male if you cover your genitals and anus. We had a guy who would wear a flesh colored thong and bicycle around the richy-richy, hipster neighborhoods. It was legal. The guy was mentally ill and eventually killed himself.

So it is also legal to walk around with a AR. So if Mister Thong slung an AR and decided to walk down the street when the school bus was leaving off kids on your block, would you shout HIP,HIP, Hurray for the RKBA and free expression of the human body or would you call the law?

Silly conjecture but the theoretical extreme proofs the rule and it's pragmatic application.

Go wear that outfit in Dairy Queen. Or try it at Ruth Chris' steak house. I'm tired of folks who see OC in Crapcake, TX while the application screws up major venues.

An analogy someone else made on another forum re: context. A crowbar is legal, but holding a crowbar behind a closed business at 2:00 am should result in a Terry stop.



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[Stephanie B]

15832

"I'd like to meet the man who thinks he can get the drop on me."

What, no "Star Wars" shirt?


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[Rex G]

I am an LEO, and when not in uniform, carry concealed. Because. :)

Well, OK. Some truths are self-evident.

[drjaydvm]

For whatever reason there have been a number of men who have visited my veterinary hospital open carrying. We are open nights and weekends so I wonder if the time of day has something to do with it. I just ignore the gun but it does freak out my mostly female staff. It's always either young early twenties "country" males, or scruffy older gents. They never have a nice pistol or holster- the last was a Velcro holster with a hi-point. The only other places I frequently see OC is at Kroger (go figure) or on some of the walking trails in town.

[OlongJohnson]

I look at open carry laws as being there for the protection of legal concealed carriers. If one accidentally allows the gun to be seen, they aren't as much at risk of losing their gun rights or having lesser legal troubles because of the lapse. It's the extreme opposite of jurisdictions where inadvertently, briefly printing is essentially legally the same as brandishing.

I think it was Mas has also pointed out that OC provides any asshole who sees the gun a way to make trouble for you without actually even interacting with you. Or if there is for any reason an actual negative interaction (which is not totally under your control, because they are an asshole), they can make up some BS and tell it to LE, who if it's the right BS, will have to respond. Because your gun was visible, the asshole can provide an accurate description of the gun you are later found to be carrying.

[Duelist]

I hesitate to even chime in on these threads. I don't normally open carry, and when I do, I'm usually hiking. But I have gone to town and forgotten to flip my shirt over my pistol.

Arizona went over a century where the only legal way to carry a gun was openly, but that was never illegal or anything here. Permits were a fight to get originally, but now we have permitless carry, and way fewer teachers in my area are willing to go to the hassle of running a class because there's usually no money in it any more. We're pretty rural to start with, so folks don't get uptight when somebody is walking around with a holstered pistol anyway.

Point is: some areas have a culture where open carry is more accepted as normal. Specifically, here in Earp/Holliday/Clanton country, with a county sheriff whose deputies all carry 1911s, it's really not a big deal. And I still don't do it, unless I've been out hunting or something, and usually not even then. Just doesn't seem that good an idea for all the reasons stated previously.