AR10 questions

[jmjames]

I've been going around and around trying to figure out a rifle to purpose for a long time now, close to a year. My goals are to do hog/deer hunting (generally in the 100 - 250 yard range at my friend's property), and work on precision shooting (I'm OK at 100 yards, I can get to a 300 yard range without too much effort). I really would like to be on the AR platform, specifically the AR10's. I see them as really just the rifles for me. The ergonomics fit me very well, I love the aftermarket and options, they are reported to be quite accurate, and if I ever find myself wanting a rifle for more than those goals, they are still a good choice. Every other rifle I've considered in that class (M1A/M14, FAL, G3/91, Saiga 308, PSL/FPK, SVD, RFB) doesn't quite fit the bill (M1A and FAL come close though).

But... I have a lot of concerns about the AR platform, and even more about the AR10. Enough concerns that I had decided to go with a Remington 700P LTR instead and see where the AR10 market led to in a few years. This thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2509-How-often-should-one-clean-their-pistols) really got me re-thinking the AR platform, since one of my big concerns was reliability. All of the "AR guys" I know tell me that they clean their stuff constantly, and all of the "experts" I know talk about how AR's need to be dripping with lube, and the AR10's in particular blow a lot of the lube out and get jammy. I've also discovered in the last few months (thanks to this forum, some experiences with the "rock solid" 1911, recommendations on pistols that turned out to be not-so-hot like the XD, etc.) that the "experts" I've talked to are really not so expert. I thought I was being smart by avoiding the usual Internet people, but I guess I was wrong!

So, here are the questions I have about AR10's that hopefully the folks here can provide some accurate answers to, instead of the goofs I've been getting bogus information from:

* Reliability: What is needed to make an AR10 "reliable"? I know that mags are a huge part of the puzzle (PMAGs the way to go, it sounds like). It sounds like constantly cleaning is not needed, at least for AR15's, but what about AR10's? What kind of lube protocol should be followed? It sounds like a boresnake + lube after a session at the range should be fine? How many rounds between re-lubing are needed?

* Barrel: I feel like 18" - 20" is the right length for my needs? What about the profile? I was thinking about a fluted barrel to support those sessions at the range (when I get to hit the rifle range, I like to be there a while since it's a hassle); my PSL/FPK has a thin barrel and I see just how quickly it gets hot, especially in a SC summer and the effect on accuracy.

* Manufacturer: I know that a lot of people run over Bushmaster/DPMS/Remington. Why? Is there something in particular against these makers? Armalite seems to have a good reputation, but I don't like the poorer aftermarket for their pattern. Who are some good AR10 makers in the SR25 pattern, without going above the $1,500 - $1,800 price point? Fulton? Rock River? CMMG (in particular, they have a very attractive offering at a reasonable price, but no one seems to know much about their AR10 stuff)?

* My local gun shop has lots of AR15 experience and has done some AR10's too, would I be better served to spec the parts I want and have them assemble it, or make a couple of compromises and buy one (full rifle, or lower/upper) off the shelf?

* For these needs, would a scope be the right choice? 3 - 9? 10 - 40? 1 - 4? Or something like an EOTech + magnifier?

* The Remington 700P LTR is about the same price as a bargain bin (DPMS) AR10 that doesn't really meet my wants, and a lot less expensive than a "good" AR10. Likewise, I could get into a decent AR15 for the same price and save a ton on ammunition (but I wouldn't go hog or deer hunting with an AR15). That buys a lot of ammo or better optic situation. Based on my needs and experience level (I shot a lot of rifles as a kid, but stopped when I was around 10 or 11 and didn't shoot one again until earlier this year when I got a PSL/FPK), should I just go with the 700 instead, learn to shoot well, and then consider the AR10? Or would the AR10 offer such a substantial, long term benefit that it's the better choice?

I trusted this forum with my recent pistol purchase, and I could not be happier. When I had my XD I looked at the range as almost like a chore and my 1911 was "fun" when it wasn't malfunctioning... but the P30 you guys pointed me to is a joy to shoot, a pleasure to own, and now I really can't wait to sneak in time at the range. I'd like to feel the same about my rifle. I enjoy shooting the PSL/FPK and the $0.19/round mil surp stuff has let me get a lot of experience on the cheap, but overall it's proven to NOT be the right gun for me (after owning it, though, I'd love to grab a WASR 10 and use it as a trunk gun).

Thanks!

J.Ja

[JDM]

http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html

The famous Filthy 14.

That should dispel most of your reliability and cleaning worries.

As far as the validity of a 762 AR, and which ones are worth looking at- out of my lane.

[jmjames]

http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html

The famous Filthy 14.

That should dispel most of your reliability and cleaning worries.

As far as the validity of a 762 AR, and which ones are worth looking at- out of my lane.

Good article. I hope that it's equally applicable to the AR10's!

J.Ja

[secondstoryguy]

There are some really nice options out there nowadays. You real need to consider what your going to be doing with it. If you want precision and the ability to run optics the .308 AR type platforms are the way to go. If, on the other hand, you want more of a battle rifle I'd lean towards a FN SCAR 17 or maybe a well put together M1A.

I've run multiple Semi-308 platforms...LWRC REPR(piece of shit), Smith Enterprises M1A, Armalite...and finally settled on the LMT MWS and the Knights EMC carbine. They are both essentially the same gun, the latter being a little more refined/lighter and lacking a quick change barrel. I finally sold my EMC and have been running my 16" LMT MWS for a while now. This is the same gun that's been adopted by the British military and a few others so parts should be around for a while. It's MOA accurate or better, treats brass well, has a great trigger, is reliable(mine has never bobbled even running suppressed), runs well with .308 P-mags, and with irons/reddot sights I can run it close in pretty well. Don't let the short barrel fool you, with the 16" barrel it can easily make hits out to 800yds on man sized targets and I've even made hits out at 1K. It has effectively replaced all my precision bolt guns which weigh about the same but are no where near as versatile. I've seen used LMT MWS selling for around $1700-$1800...a phenomenal deal for what your getting IMHO.

As far as hunting with my LMT, I've killed a bunch of pigs/deer with mine but it's a heavy bitch (12-13lbs loaded with optics/accessories-all .308 semis seem to be!)so it doesn't go out when theres a lot of walking involved...that duty is reserved for my 6.5lb bolt gun.

[Al T.]

I was being smart by avoiding the usual Internet people

Folks here are not usual. Semi-private forum with lots of folks knowing each other. :)

CMMG may have a great rifle - or not. I think they are new to the AR-10 platform, so I'd wait.

For SC, 5.56 is legal on big game. I have no issues using it on deer (small here), but if hogs are on the menu that's a "game" changer. :p

PSA makes a decent 6.8 upper. For your budget range, I'd get a lower and two uppers - one in 5.56, one in 6.8.

As for the Bushmaster (et al) hate, they earned it. Junk guns, especially when compared to makers now a days. That being said, the DPMS AR-10 "seems" to be OKish.

[LittleLebowski]

For your needs, I'd get a 5.56. It would be a fine dual purpose rifle. You could afford to hunt and train with it.

I'm not a fan of magnifiers behind red dots. I'd rather have a mid range scope like a Leupold 2-8 or Trijicon 1-4x. Rumor is that Trijicon will be introducing the 1-6 at SHOT this year. Where or not the scope will have a reticle beyond that of a dot or a triangle remains to be seen.

Price .308 and 5.56. Think about it realistically.

[secondstoryguy]

AL T is right on the two uppers thing. That's a very intelligent combo for hunting and other sports. You can put together a very light and short rifle in 6.8. I have several friends here in central Texas that hunt hogs with 6.8s/6.5s and they have nothing but good things to say about the caliber when used against even large hogs. .223 will work deer but on hogs but your shot placement has to be spot on...6.8 is more forgiving. I have been within a hairs breath of going the 6.8 route but I'm trying to keep my ammo stable simple(9mm, 5.56, and .308). Don't know what your price range is but Noveske makes some kick ass 6.8 uppers(and lowers for that matter).

[jmjames]

Good information, thanks!


There are some really nice options out there nowadays. You real need to consider what your going to be doing with it. If you want precision and the ability to run optics the .308 AR type platforms are the way to go. If, on the other hand, you want more of a battle rifle I'd lean towards a FN SCAR 17 or maybe a well put together M1A.

I haven't fired a SCAR, but I got to handle one at a store. I really liked the ergonomics (incidentally, the FNAR is a really nice rifle to shoulder as well) and the weight, but the cost is prohibitive. I've really scrutinized the M1A as well; I don't like its weight distribution, and the optics mounting situation is a trainwreck. A guy in Canada seems to have solved it (I think the mount is called the CASV if memory serves?), but there seems to be that one really solid mount and that involves losing the iron sights. I like the SA Scout model, but I'd prefer a heavier barrel I think, but the Loaded model is too long for my needs. Both weigh a lot.

The MBRs attract me a lot, but not in any way that I can justify. The precision isn't what I want, the weight is high, they often aren't rated for .308, so why exactly do I want one? :) Like it's the Cold War version of a mall ninja hidden inside of me or something. The AR10 is the only one of the bunch (and I'll call it an MBR because it fits the definition) that actually makes sense for my needs beyond the sex appeal. I still want a G3/91 "just because" though...


As far as hunting with my LMT, I've killed a bunch of pigs/deer with mine but it's a heavy bitch (12-13lbs loaded with optics/accessories-all .308 semis seem to be!)so it doesn't go out when theres a lot of walking involved...that duty is reserved for my 6.5lb bolt gun.

Yeah, that's what I've seen too, they all seem to weigh around 10 lbs. before optics and such.

J.Ja

[seabiscuit]

Unless semi-auto is one of your needs, what about a Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle?

[jmjames]

PSA makes a decent 6.8 upper. For your budget range, I'd get a lower and two uppers - one in 5.56, one in 6.8.

This is horribly sensible. I looked into 6.8, I wanted to standardize on a common round for long term, but as an upper just for hunting, that makes perfect sense. Get a lightweight 6.8 and a heavier, longer 5.56 for the range.


As for the Bushmaster (et al) hate, they earned it. Junk guns, especially when compared to makers now a days. That being said, the DPMS AR-10 "seems" to be OKish.

What exactly makes them "junk" though? Inferior materials and they blow up? Poor tolerances so they jam or malfunction?

J.Ja

[jmjames]

Price .308 and 5.56. Think about it realistically.

It's funny... paying more for .308 seems less painful then it should since I don't get to the rifle range too often. But at the same time, paying so much more for the rifle (a bottom end .308 seems to be the same price as a decent 5.56?) seems like a waste if I don't get to the range much, and it's even more painful if I get to go to the range more... honestly, I only was looking at .308 for the hunting aspect of it, and I really didn't think about just having a 6.8 upper.

J.Ja

[jmjames]

Unless semi-auto is one of your needs, what about a Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle?

I've considered it! The relative lack of scope options has me a bit shy of them. Also, I figured that with the 700P LTR (if I was going to go the bolt gun route... and I may very well!), I can convert it to a scout setup down the road if it makes sense to me.

J.Ja

[orionz06]

What exactly makes them "junk" though? Inferior materials and they blow up? Poor tolerances so they jam or malfunction?

J.Ja

Tolerances is not an end all be all answer. Although poorly made parts can cause issues it is generally the assembly and material grade that causes an AR to malfunction. The heart of the gun is the gas system. The guns will run just fine, dirty or clean, when they are well lubed and properly gassed with the correct reciprocating mass.

This means the gas port needs to be the right size, the gas tube to carrier key alignment needs to be correct, the carrier key needs to be properly torqued and staked to prevent movement, the carrier weight needs to be the correct weight, the buffer needs to be the correct weight, and the spring needs to be correct. You also need the correct extractor tension.

All of those things, when small corners are cut, can stack up pretty quickly.

[jmjames]

Tolerances is not an end all be all answer. Although poorly made parts can cause issues it is generally the assembly and material grade that causes an AR to malfunction. The heart of the gun is the gas system. The guns will run just fine, dirty or clean, when they are well lubed and properly gassed with the correct reciprocating mass.

This means the gas port needs to be the right size, the gas tube to carrier key alignment needs to be correct, the carrier key needs to be properly torqued and staked to prevent movement, the carrier weight needs to be the correct weight, the buffer needs to be the correct weight, and the spring needs to be correct. You also need the correct extractor tension.

All of those things, when small corners are cut, can stack up pretty quickly.

This makes perfect sense, thanks! No one's really laid it out like that, it's always, "well, so-and-so makes junk" and without details it sounds suspiciously like "common folklore".

J.Ja

[orionz06]

This makes perfect sense, thanks! No one's really laid it out like that, it's always, "well, so-and-so makes junk" and without details it sounds suspiciously like "common folklore".

J.Ja

The bigger issue that I have is that a lot of the things that need done don't cost a whole lot more money, if any at all. I know some companies running a different carrier pay more to make the incorrect part (or they don't correct the gas system to account for their lighter carrier).

There is a fair amount you can do to take a "bad" AR (5.56) and make it better, but by the time you have much of that taken care of you could have bought the better gun in the first place.

.308's are different animals though as the prices between different guns is often 2:1.

[jmjames]

.308's are different animals though as the prices between different guns is often 2:1.

I've seen that. $1k for a DPMS, $1.8K for a Fulton Armory, $2.5k - $3k for a POF or similar. And at the top end, the install base is so small and the owners are in such a tizzy over buying a $3k rifle that they often seem to overlook the reality... so I am suspect of a lot of claims from owners. I'd suspect that the Knights Armaments SR-25's are quality, but a POF? Eh, maybe not, from what I've read of their 5.56 stuff.

J.Ja

[orionz06]

Yeah, unfortunately to get into a .308 I would not feel comfortable (with the limited knowledge I have of them) spending less than $3k. Now that being said, if you aren't shooting any further than 300 and the bulk is peaking at 250 why not just go 5.56? You could get a gun and optic for the price of the base .308 rifle alone and still afford to shoot it.

[jmjames]

Yeah, unfortunately to get into a .308 I would not feel comfortable (with the limited knowledge I have of them) spending less than $3k. Now that being said, if you aren't shooting any further than 300 and the bulk is peaking at 250 why not just go 5.56? You could get a gun and optic for the price of the base .308 rifle alone and still afford to shoot it.

Mainly because I'd like to go hog hunting, and 5.56 isn't adequate for that unless you are pretty precise. I like Al's suggestion of getting a 6.8 upper, that's economical and also lets me stop thinking too hard about trying to get one optic to do both jobs.

J.Ja

[Tamara]

What is needed to make an AR10 "reliable"? I know that mags are a huge part of the puzzle (PMAGs the way to go, it sounds like).

You have inadvertently hit on the single biggest weakness of .308 ARs, there, in that there is no "industry standard" for mags. Buy the wrong one and you get stuck having to order mags that are hand-crafted by monks in Tibet out of compressed unicorn tears and priced like imported sin.

[JeffJ]

FWIW, I've seen quite a few hogs taken down with one well placed 5.56 followed by a few more that may or may not have been necessary;)

[jmjames]

You have inadvertently hit on the single biggest weakness of .308 ARs, there, in that there is no "industry standard" for mags. Buy the wrong one and you get stuck having to order mags that are hand-crafted by monks in Tibet out of compressed unicorn tears and priced like imported sin.

That's one of the things that has me wary of Armalite, even though their overall reputation seems to be that they are reliable and their price point is attractive. I feel like I'd be getting a cheap razor but paying through the nose for the razor blades...

J.Ja

[Odin Bravo One]

I recently picked up a LaRue PredatAR, and at 7.75 lbs w/o optics, it comes in under many 556 AR's. It is sub-MOA capable, if that matters and you are capable of producing those kinds of results.

Like Tam mentioned, lack of industry mag standard in the 762 versions can make for finding reliable mags a pain in the ass. The LaRue mags are great........but made by those monks in Tibet, from Unicorn Tears.......at least for what they cost, it would appear that way. PMAGs will function but don't drop free. I strip my mags anyway, but I prefer it be a technique of habit due to worst case scenario vs. a requirement for every single mag.

Also the price on the Pred's are comparable to well built smaller/custom builders 556 or 68 versions.

I am a big fan of the Pred.

I also like aspects of the SCAR. Some factory support, parts availability issues, and quirks I don't care much for, but over all, it is a fine rifle as well. Sub-MOA capability, and is very reliable.

Making comparisons to FALs or M1/M14 variants is not really fair to the latter rifles. The modern designs, materials, better ergonomics, service life, hard use capabilities, reliability, and accuracy of the SCARs and the well built AR's have long eclipsed the capabilities of the 762 rifles of old.

[jetfire]

Unless semi-auto is one of your needs, what about a Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle?

If you're going to use the gun for whomping pigs in close brush, I <3 this as an option. I've shot a bunch of rounds out of this rifle at various writer's events, and I'd take it over all the AR10s that are at the same price point of ~1000 bucks. For a hog gun that's good out to 150 yards, put an Aimpoint or Trijicon Reflex sight on the Scout Rifle and you're in serious pig-murder business.

[jmjames]

Looking around at the AR15 options out there per Al's suggestion, came across the Colt SP901. It's priced about the same as a good AR10, with the option of throwing on a 5.56 upper.

Does anyone know anything about this? This is an attractive option to the AR 15 with a 5.56 and 6.8 upper, for roughly $300 - $500 more.

J.Ja

[LittleLebowski]

If the question involves ARs, Colt is usually a correct answer but no one has any data on that rifle yet, Jmjames. Are you not planning to train with this upcoming purchase?

Personally, I'd grab the 7.62 PredaTAR.

[orionz06]

Personally, I'd grab the 7.62 PredaTAR.

Things just changed for me now that I saw it is only $2500 as opposed to the $3500 I thought it was.

[jmjames]

Things just changed for me now that I saw it is only $2500 as opposed to the $3500 I thought it was.

I thought it was the same as well. Maybe that's the list price?

J.Ja

[jmjames]

If the question involves ARs, Colt is usually a correct answer but no one has any data on that rifle yet, Jmjames. Are you not planning to train with this upcoming purchase?

Personally, I'd grab the 7.62 PredaTAR.

It's a lot more money than my needs justify. I'm not planning on seriously training with it for any kind of gunfighting or anything like that. I mean, a 700P LTR is what I had originally settled on before the cleaning thread made me re-think the AR's that I had previously written off. After some of my experiences lately (my 1911 that had a hard time returning to battery and stovepiping, my PSL/FPK with failures to feed), even a "range gun" needs to have some baseline reliability for me, but I also don't need top-of-the-top for what I'm looking at doing either. If I get the time and resources and access to a super-long range facility on a regular basis, I could probably justify $2,500 on the rifle itself.

J.Ja

[JB326]

A couple of years ago I happened into one of the local shops and they had a "used/ unfired" DPMS LR-308. I inquired and subsequently couldn't resist the $800 OTD quote I was given. My particular gun is the 24" SS bull barrel variant, and I really don't have any complaints with it at all. BUT... I have never run it hard or abused it and I don't have a significant round count on it either. A friend of mine bought the same rifle to take through our local LE sniper school which is a tough week on both the rifles and the shooters. His DPMS came through without a hitch, and seemed like pretty much any other AR as far as maintenance went. As long as it was sufficiently lubed it works as it was supposed to. He was running DPMS mags only. I have a mixture of DPMS and Pmags for mine, and all of them work well.

Lastly, one day I decided to see what kind of accuracy my rifle would do... I shot this string of 6 targets one after the other, no delay or barrel cooling allowed between groups. Range was 100 yards and ammo was Federal GMM 168 gr BTHP's. (I topped mine with a Leupold VXIII 2.5-10x50)

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x212/shooter_john/LR308Groups092908-1.jpg

Obviously the accuracy level seems acceptable for anything I could ever expect to do with this rifle. With all of that said, the most often used precision rifle in my safe is my 16" Remington 700P.

[Tamara]

I also like aspects of the SCAR. Some factory support, parts availability issues, and quirks I don't care much for, but over all, it is a fine rifle as well. Sub-MOA capability, and is very reliable.

I really, really like the 7.62 SCAR except for one thing: The very first shot I fired out of one, my support hand thumbnail got broken clean down to the quick. Stupid %&^*$ reciprocating charging handle! :mad: (I still kinda want one, but we're back to the "compressed unicorn tears" thing...)

It makes you realize how outside the norm the AR platform is in that, with its absence of exposed gas tubes or reciprocating parts, you can park your support hand pretty much anywhere on the gun you want to without it biting or burning you...

[Odin Bravo One]

Yeah, I didn't have any fingernails to donate, but I have donated blood a few times on that thing when I forgot to get some things out of the way of moving parts. My fix is to cut the CH in half, then hit it with a soldering iron for grip. Allows me to run the gun with just the index finger knuckle, similar to the AR family. Still, the version without the reciprocating CH has much more appeal to me. If it ever see's the light of day outside the gates of Wonka land.

And I much prefer the fixed stock over the folder, though mine is the only one I have seen actually mounted and in use.

[GJM]

As a practical bolt guy, the Ruger Gunsite Scout is a no go based on the action -- lousy bolt operation which will make someone that vigorously works a bolt sick.

I am no military tester, but have had or have all the gas gun suspects in .308. I am down to just two types -- SCAR H (with Geisselle trigger) and Larue PredatAR, so I can use the stock of 7.62 P mags I have. The H is the lightest .308 gas gun I have used and one I am most likely to carry in the field. The recip charging handle issue is self-correcting after one smack.

[seabiscuit]

Really? I thought the M77 action was pretty solid.

[Tamara]

The recip charging handle issue is self-correcting after one smack.

Yeah, in much the same way as the SERPA's release button issue is self-correcting after the first bullet through your leg, too. :p

Come on, FN, you've got a regular Mona Lisa here if you'd get that zit off her nose! :mad:

[jmjames]

I am down to just two types -- SCAR H (with Geisselle trigger) and Larue PredatAR, so I can use the stock of 7.62 P mags I have. The H is the lightest .308 gas gun I have used and one I am most likely to carry in the field. The recip charging handle issue is self-correcting after one smack.

The general feeling I'm getting from this, is that if I choose to go the .308 semi-auto route, I'm looking at $2k+ to get into an AR10 worth owning... which puts it right into SCAR price. Having not shot either, but handled both, I think the SCAR has a slight edge for me, weight being a lot of it.

I still like Al's idea of going with an AR15 with a 5.56 and 6.8 upper though. Put good money into a top shelf lower with a good trigger, get an OK upper since that would be for hunting where I just need to get a bullet in the right general area (I've thought about just getting a Saiga 308 or a low end BAR for hunting and being done with it...), and enjoy the 5.56 at the range.

J.Ja

[GJM]

Really? I thought the M77 action was pretty solid.

Solid it may be, slick it is not. Run the Gunsite model bolt hard and you will feel it bind. My guess is it is the stainless, as other blued Ruger bolts have been OK.

[seabiscuit]

Hmm. Thanks for the info.

[Al T.]

I loves me a SCAR, but the magazine shortage has me steering clear. I know a couple of employees and they can't get me any either. :(

Buddies PSA 6.8 upper is very accurate and priced decently.

[mnealtx]

Solid it may be, slick it is not. Run the Gunsite model bolt hard and you will feel it bind. My guess is it is the stainless, as other blued Ruger bolts have been OK.

Couldn't you get a regular M77 and put a forward mount scope on it and get 85% of the "scout" functionality?

[GJM]

Couldn't you get a regular M77 and put a forward mount scope on it and get 85% of the "scout" functionality?

If you define a Scout as being a rifle with an intermediate eye relief scope. I define it differently -- a practical bolt action rifle with a smooth bolt action, good trigger, reserve iron sights, low power scope (conventional or intermediate), shorter length of pull, ammo on butt cuff, shorter overall length. I see the intermediate eye relief scope as the least important, and weakest part of the scout rifle. I also prefer the rifle be built on a Pre-64 model 70 action, or a controlled feed recent Winchester action as a second choice. Inevitably, when I have gone to the trouble and expense of building a Scout rifle, I have found a Ruger action is disappointing compared to the model 70, and false economy relative to the overall cost of the project.

[seabiscuit]

I think a detachable box magazine is an important feature too.

[mnealtx]

If you define a Scout as being a rifle with an intermediate eye relief scope. I define it differently -- a practical bolt action rifle with a smooth bolt action, good trigger, reserve iron sights, low power scope (conventional or intermediate), shorter length of pull, ammo on butt cuff, shorter overall length. I see the intermediate eye relief scope as the least important, and weakest part of the scout rifle. I also prefer the rifle be built on a Pre-64 model 70 action, or a controlled feed recent Winchester action as a second choice. Inevitably, when I have gone to the trouble and expense of building a Scout rifle, I have found a Ruger action is disappointing compared to the model 70, and false economy relative to the overall cost of the project.

I'm not sure how we got to a discussion of the optics - my question was actually meant to trigger a comparison of the 'normal' M77 action vs. the 'Gunsite' M77 action regarding the bolt, given 3 separate mentions of the action.

[secondstoryguy]

GJM: I'm with you on the Ruger Scout. The 2-3 I've handled have a lot to be desired. Especially when compared to a Win Mod 70 controlled feed action.

[GJM]

I'm not sure how we got to a discussion of the optics - my question was actually meant to trigger a comparison of the 'normal' M77 action vs. the 'Gunsite' M77 action regarding the bolt, given 3 separate mentions of the action.

I think I misunderstood your question -- what about the action beyond the stainless on the Gunsite model and other stainless Ruger bolts, from .22 magnum to centerfire makes for lousy bolt manipulation compared to the regular cations.

I think a drop magazine is a great way to ruin the handling of a bolt gun you plan to carry in the field, as the magazine is either sticking you when slung, or thwarting your ability to carry it with your hand across the action. I have just had a non-detachable drop box magazine pulled off a .375 H&H I hunt brown bears with, for this reason

[mnealtx]

I think I misunderstood your question -- what about the action beyond the stainless on the Gunsite model and other stainless Ruger bolts, from .22 magnum to centerfire makes for lousy bolt manipulation compared to the regular cations.

Yes, that's what I meant - given that you mention other models, I'm guessing it's not just the 'scout' that has the problem. Is it known *why* it's an issue? Dimensional differences with stainless vs. carbon steel from the same molds, maybe?

[GJM]

I am no expert, but my personal view is the stainless galls. While I have never had or felt a stainless Ruger bolt that worked smoothly, I owned a blued 375 Ruger that I shot a bunch of animals with in Africa that was smooth. Beyond the roughness, I don't care for either the tang safety on older models or the three position Ruger safety -- as the three position Ruger safety is smallish, sharp and hard to move full travel quickly.

[DocGKR]

90% of folks would be best served by a quality 5.56 mm AR15 DI 16" 1/7 twist rifle preferably using a mid-length gas system--good rifles can be found from Colt, DD, LaRue, BCM, LMT, Noveske. Attach an adjustable 2 point sling like the BFG VCAS or VTAC, put an Aimpoint on it in a LaRue mount, add a simple Surefire G2L light in a VTAC, Danger Close, or other similar mount, if you need BIS Troy works well; acquire a dozen PMAGS or USGI aluminum mags with Magpul followers and Magpuls on them. If you need to hunt or have a duty weapon with greater capability, consider adding an identically configured 6.8 mm upper.

-------------------------------------------

For those folks who truly need the range, intermediate barrier capability, or terminal performance of the .308, along with the FN Mk17 SCAR-H and Mk20 SSR, the best current semi-auto .308 AR options are the KAC SR25 EMC, as well as the LaRue OBR (for precision) and PredatAR (for GP use). While some military folks will be able to appreciate the 18" barrels, most CONUS LE and civilians will be best served with a 16" barrel. PMAGS, KAC mags, and LaRue mags are all working well. Suppressors from Surfire, AAC, Ops Inc, and Gemtech have proved effective.

M1A's in whatever form are a weak sister, not worthy of consideration if you have any other alternatives: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/5131010204/p/1.

[jmjames]

90% of folks would be best served by a quality 5.56 mm AR15 DI 16" 1/7 twist rifle preferably using a mid-length gas system--good rifles can be found from Colt, DD, LaRue, BCM, LMT, Noveske. Attach an adjustable 2 point sling like the BFG VCAS or VTAC, put an Aimpoint on it in a LaRue mount, add a simple Surefire G2L light in a VTAC, Danger Close, or other similar mount, if you need BIS Troy works well; acquire a dozen PMAGS or USGI aluminum mags with Magpul followers and Magpuls on them. If you need to hunt or have a duty weapon with greater capability, consider adding an identically configured 6.8 mm upper.

The Colts and the DD's are priced within a couple of bucks of what I was going to spend on the 700P LTR anyways, and I don't think the hunting upper needs to be top tier. Is Stag Arms "good enough" for a 6.8 hunting upper? Buying a second set of glass and the second upper brings the total package into the $2k range. :( Hopefully, the new contracts I set up to start for January will go through just fine and I'll be able to spend this including the 50% tax my wife likes to apply to firearms purchases... either way, shooting 5.56 at the range and 6.8 on rare occasions compared to .308 all the time will pay for itself in short order, I think.

The Palmetto State Armory rifles are very inexpensive, I've heard good things about them, and they are very local to me. Would I be making a mistake to buy a PSA instead of the Colt or DD? Is that price a red flag?

My last concern at this point, is the potential dirty looks a lot of hunters seem to give the AR platform. I personally wouldn't care, but if I'm going to be hunting on my friend's land and his uncle or father or something gets in a tangle over my "assault rifle"...


For those folks who truly need the range, intermediate barrier capability, or terminal performance of the .308, along with the FN Mk17 SCAR-H and Mk20 SSR, the best current semi-auto .308 AR options are the KAC SR25 EMC, as well as the LaRue OBR (for precision) and PredatAR (for GP use). While some military folks will be able to appreciate the 18" barrels, most CONUS LE and civilians will be best served with a 16" barrel. PMAGS, KAC mags, and LaRue mags are all working well. Suppressors from Surfire, AAC, Ops Inc, and Gemtech have proved effective.

M1A's in whatever form are a weak sister, not worthy of consideration if you have any other alternatives: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/5131010204/p/1.

I don't truly need the range yet, and that's an important distinction. If I get to that point, it means that I've either found a nice distance range around me, or I've acquired enough land of my own to set up my own. Since that's not anytime soon, I don't think I need to think that far out yet. It definitely sounds like at that time I'll be choosing between a LaRue and a SCAR at that time, or perhaps the 700P LTR will make sense at that time still.

The thread on the M14 was a hoot, sifting through the Rex Kramer stuff. It confirmed by initial suspicions about it (bad scope mount situation, heavy, less accurate than "Internet folklore" claims) while adding some new ones too.

Thanks!

J.Ja

[AzDak]

Hi All -

First post here, so be gentle.

I'd just like to put in a comment on the LR308 series of rifles. While they don't carry the same cachet as the OBR, LMT or SR25, I wouldn't overlook them just because they come in at a lower price point.

My first experience with the LR308s came in 2007 when I attended a long range precision class in Wyoming. Prior to the class, I picked up a DPMS SASS 18" and outfitted it with a Nightforce NXS 5-22x56. I got it zero'd, ran ~100 rounds through it to make sure it passed basic reliability and took it north.

At the class, I was on the line with another fellow running a 24" LR308 base model.

Both of us found our rifles were running about 1.5 MOA and they stayed consistent as we worked our way further and further down range. Over the course of the class, we each went through ~500 rounds and neither of us had a malfunction/issue with our rifles. They both ran exceptionally well. (He was shooting Fed 168g GMM, I was running BH 168g Match) Neither of us had reliability problems, using factory mags.

The other gent had no problem getting out to 1000 yards and making hits on steel torso targets at that range. With the shorter barrel and slightly lower velocity with my lot of BHs, I went subsonic after 800 and didn't have much luck consistently beyond that range.

After that class, I've probably run another ~2k or so through my DPMS and it's continued to run clean, dirty and with a variety of ammo. It's as reliable, if not more than my higher end AR15s.

If I was to do it over again, I'd buy the base LR308 with a 24" FF barrel and go from there. Get used to it, shoot it plenty. You can always add an aftermarket Timney trigger, upgrade the barrel (Rainier arms makes a nice one) and/or replace the stock with the Magpul PRS. I'd also likely go with the 3-15x50 nightforce, the 5.5-22x56 was a bit much on that rifle.

It is big and bulky, it's not something I'd want to carry in the field a long ways.
It's run reliably with both Cproducts metal mags and PMAGs

One thing to note, is that even on the SASS model, the LR308 does not have a match barrel from the factory. They are pretty decent stock barrels, but they are not 1 moa guns unless you get lucky. From hands on experience, I can say that a GA Precision or a Rainier arms match barrel applied to the LR308 will put it sub MOA. (Ok, to be fair, I can say that on the two LR308s I've shot with that modification, have been sub moa.)

It's a great starting 308 platform. If you like it, and find you want to take it further, you have options. It's a bit easier to head that way than drop $3-5k on a AR10 platform only to find out you don't care for it.

[LittleLebowski]

Great post and thanks for dropping by, Azdak. Hang around a while.

[LittleLebowski]

I am no expert, but my personal view is the stainless galls. While I have never had or felt a stainless Ruger bolt that worked smoothly, I owned a blued 375 Ruger that I shot a bunch of animals with in Africa that was smooth. Beyond the roughness, I don't care for either the tang safety on older models or the three position Ruger safety -- as the three position Ruger safety is smallish, sharp and hard to move full travel quickly.

I am probably wrong but from what I understand, stainless guns haven't galled since the 80's due to advances in metallurgy.

[jmjames]

Great post and thanks for dropping by, Azdak. Hang around a while.

Agreed! Thanks for the information... I've heard a lot of positive experiences with the DPMS 308's, but a lot of negative. Something that I suspect plays into it, is that they are fairly common. You put enough units on the market, there are bound to be some bad ones out there, and folks will get very verbal on the Internet about a bad firearm. I do appreciate your point about getting into the AR10 platform on the low end and investing more if you like it.

J.Ja

[Odin Bravo One]

My big concern when contemplating DPMS.......among others.........is QC, origin of parts, testing of parts, and building to a standard.

Flip side, is that many manufacturers may change a method of assembly, or specs without telling their consumers. Last I knew (and rifles I physically looked at), DPMS didn't have much credibility in the items that concern me when dropping that kind of cash on a rifle.

[AzDak]

Hey LL - I didn't realize you haunted this corner of the internet. I followed a link from another friend that posts here and ended up jumping in. It's always nice to bump into someone you know.

[WDW]

I would limit my choices to the Armalite AR-10 Super SASS, the Knight SR-25, or the LWRC REPR. You really do get what you pay for and unless you wanna throw out some decent coinage, I would stick with the bolt gun.

[LittleLebowski]

I would limit my choices to the Armalite AR-10 Super SASS, the Knight SR-25, or the LWRC REPR. You really do get what you pay for and unless you wanna throw out some decent coinage, I would stick with the bolt gun.

The Larue PredatAR and LMT MWS are tops on this category. There are new KAC rifles coming out at SHOT but they will be most likely over $4k.

[Kyle Reese]

The Larue PredatAR and LMT MWS are tops on this category. There are new KAC rifles coming out at SHOT but they will be most likely over $4k.

Oh well. Gotta pay to play. :cool: I'm picking up an MWS anyways. No way would I even consider anything made by DPMS, RRA or other low end builders, esp for a 308 gas gun.

[LittleLebowski]

Oh well. Gotta pay to play. :cool: I'm picking up an MWS anyways. No way would I even consider anything made by DPMS, RRA or other low end builders, esp for a 308 gas gun.

Might want to talk to SeanM about the 7.62 PredatAR......

[Spr1]

If Larue came out with a mid-wieght barreled PredatAR I know a couple folks who would jump on one.

[LittleLebowski]

If Larue came out with a mid-wieght barreled PredatAR I know a couple folks who would jump on one.

To be introduced soon..... Watch SHOT. Prsonally, I like the idea of a lightweight 1 MOA 7.62 PredatAR so I have less interest than you in a mid weight.

[Odin Bravo One]

If Larue came out with a mid-wieght barreled PredatAR I know a couple folks who would jump on one.

The light weight barrel profile has a barrel service life of 10k rounds, and is sub-MOA out to 600 and beyond. I have to ask, why one would want a heavier barrel? What is the perceived advantage? The Pred is not a precision rifle, but a GP battle rifle that happens to be sub-MOA capable. If you want a precision rifle, then the OBR with the heavier barrel profile is the solution in LaRue's current offerings.

I am very happy with the LaRue PredatAR. I was impressed during the T&E period, as were several co-workers. Impressed enough to drop nearly $40k out of pocket by guys for the private purchase of the 7.62 Preds, when the SCAR-H and KAC Mk11 are readily available for free.

Just sayin.............

[LittleLebowski]

The light weight barrel profile has a barrel service life of 10k rounds, and is sub-MOA out to 600 and beyond. I have to ask, why one would want a heavier barrel? What is the perceived advantage? The Pred is not a precision rifle, but a GP battle rifle that happens to be sub-MOA capable. If you want a precision rifle, then the OBR with the heavier barrel profile is the solution in LaRue's current offerings.

I am very happy with the LaRue PredatAR. I was impressed during the T&E period, as were several co-workers. Impressed enough to drop nearly $40k out of pocket by guys for the private purchase of the 7.62 Preds, when the SCAR-H and KAC Mk11 are readily available for free.

Just sayin.............

Quoted to reemphasize.

[Spr1]

I was concerned about all the classic thin barrel symptoms. If a larger sample size than the few reports I have read says not to worry, that is good news. Hard to complain about having less weight to lug around.

[Odin Bravo One]

Hard to complain about having less weight to lug around.



Yeah.

I am a firm believer in "Light Gear is Right Gear".

[GJM]

Yeah.

I am a firm believer in "Light Gear is Right Gear".

Agreed, and carrying a firearm all day in the field, whether hunting or otherwise, drives this point home. I have the -H and PredatAR, as much for their light weight as their other fine attributes. Curious why you prefer the Larue to the -H?

[SLG]

FWIW, I agree completely with Sean on the weight/function issue of the PredatAR. However, Larue is coming out with a heavier barrel version of the same gun, for those who are interested.


Edited:

Whoops, just saw that LL already posted that info.