Project Appleseed

[SLG]

Not sure if I picked the right forum for this.

Anyone been to a shoot? I'm trying to get to one, and am really looking forward to it. Not real high speed, but it seems pretty neat to me.

I'm trying to decide between an accurized 10/22, or a CZ 452 (which is as accurate as all get out). Obviously the semi will make life easier, but I think I'll get more out of the time limits using a bolt.

Any one been to one, I'd love to hear your experience. Anyone want to come to one in MT, let me know.

[jar]

Not sure if I picked the right forum for this.

Anyone been to a shoot? I'm trying to get to one, and am really looking forward to it. Not real high speed, but it seems pretty neat to me.

I'm trying to decide between an accurized 10/22, or a CZ 452 (which is as accurate as all get out). Obviously the semi will make life easier, but I think I'll get more out of the time limits using a bolt.

Any one been to one, I'd love to hear your experience. Anyone want to come to one in MT, let me know.

I've been to a few. You can't beat it for learning the fundamentals of rifle shooting with a side of history. The optimal rifle is a detachable mag semi-auto, but they'll work with you on whatever you bring. With the semi, you won't be worrying about working the bolt and mags give you easy reloads. If you, as an experienced shooter, want to take a bolt gun for the challenge, go for it, but newbies should definitely prefer an semi.

ETA: What do you have on the two rifles for sights/scopes?

In the northeast, they do a lot of 'rapid fire AQTs', which is 10 rounds standing at simulated 100y, 10 rounds sitting at sim 200y, 10 rounds prone at sim 300y, and 10 rounds prone at sim 400y all in 4 minutes. Some of the other instructor groups do the 4 stages separately more. That time isn't hard with a semi, but can be a challenge with a bolt gun, especially without 10 round mags.

If the one you're going to is 25m only, definitely go with a 22LR. Some events have the opportunity to shoot full distance on Sunday, in which case I'd probably bring both a 22 and a centerfire.

[SLG]

I've never done the "speed AQT", but on the standard COF, I shoot in the upper 230's with my bolt, so I figure it'll do the job. I'll try the speed version one of these days, and see how it goes, though I don't think it will change much. The CZ has a variable Redfield (new manufacture) on it, and the Ruger has a 4X simmons. Either one does just fine, though the Redfield is a much nicer scope. If I end up preferring the Ruger, I might throw a Leupy 3-9 on it.

If you've been several times, it must be worth your time. I'm more excited to go to this than I can explain.

What sling to you prefer? I've been using a ching sling for years, though in the last few years, a TAB sling has seen a lot of use on my bolt guns. Have you tried a Mountain Shooter sling?

What rifle/sight do you use?

[Tamara]

Been to one.

Imagine a DCM clinic with all of the boring sucked out of it. ;)

The instructors tend to be really fired up about their mission of teaching rifle marksmanship. I had a grand time just shutting my mouth and opening my ears and watching how much fun everybody around me was having.

As a bonus, one of the instructors at ours was an ROTC student from a university in TN who had brought extra 10/22's with slings and tech-sights from his school rifle team. That just tickled me pink and made me proud to have lived in TN. :cool:

[GJM]

What is a mountain shooter sling?

[SLG]

What is a mountain shooter sling?


http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2572793

[SLG]

Been to one.

Imagine a DCM clinic with all of the boring sucked out of it. ;)

The instructors tend to be really fired up about their mission of teaching rifle marksmanship. I had a grand time just shutting my mouth and opening my ears and watching how much fun everybody around me was having.

As a bonus, one of the instructors at ours was an ROTC student from a university in TN who had brought extra 10/22's with slings and tech-sights from his school rifle team. That just tickled me pink and made me proud to have lived in TN. :cool:



How did you like the tech sights?

[GJM]

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2572793

Thanks, looks interesting. I have been using Ching slings for years, since first doing API 270 back in 91 or 92. I modified a military sling, in a somewhat similar way, for my lightweight .260 I took sheep hunting in the Brooks Range this past summer.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/sling.jpg

[SLG]

GJM,

Kimber 84M Montana? In .260? Awesome. I have several of those guns, but none in .260:-(

[GJM]

It sure is. Shoots great with Barnes bullets, and I have a 2.5-8 Leupold with a Premier style reticle. Weighs just over six pounds with scope and sling. As you probably know, the stainless Kimbers can be hit and miss in accuracy, and when I found out how well this one shot, I coerced my buddy into selling it to me for my sheep rifle.

[Al T.]

SLG, I'm a Tech-Sights fanboy for the SKS. Never used them on another platform, but had two sets on SKSs. Great company IMHO.

[SLG]

GJM,

Nice. We use barnes bullets as well, and though my 308 shoots pretty well, my wife's shoots twice as well. We too use the 2.5-8:-) Great scope. Great package. I have quite a few other rifles, including some ultralight customs, and my go to rifle is my Montana. Hard to beat it.

[SLG]

SLG, I'm a Tech-Sights fanboy for the SKS. Never used them on another platform, but had two sets on SKSs. Great company IMHO.

I was actually thinking of putting a set on the SKS, so that's good to hear.

[lindertw]

SLG,

I installed tech sights on my kids 10/22's, and they're great. The sights, along with a stock modified to fit them has made learning to shoot much more enjoyable :)

my daughter's 10/22:
http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac306/lindertw/nssf_qual_2010.png

I haven't shot Appleseed, but it's on my list of things to do with the kids!

[Tamara]

How did you like the tech sights?

I liked 'em enough that I've spent time since then trying to figure out an excuse to buy a 10/22 so I could slap some on it.


my daughter's 10/22:

I find myself kinda jealous of your daughter. :o

[ACP230]

I've been to a couple. One was on the weekend closest to April 19 last year. The history connection is even stronger that shoot.

Scored a lot worse than I figured I would. (Too long without shooting from positions other than offhand or a bench).
Learned that for those little squares they use at 25 meters I have to have a scope. Tried three different rifles and decided the 10/22 works best for me.

Plan to go to another this spring or summer.

[LittleLebowski]

SLG, could you shoot me a PM with your thoughts on the Leupold 2.5-8?

[Al T.]

LL, I have several of the 2.5x8s. IMHO, a super scope. Even though I'm not SLG, HTHs. :p

[jar]

I used a 10/22 with tech sights and a GI style web sling. I never quite broke 210 to get the patch at an event, but I did it in practice afterwards. If I went now, I'd probably shoot my Nordic 22lr upper with Primary Arms 1-4x.

TLG, if you can shoot that well, they'll probably try to get you to volunteer as an instructor.

[jumpthestack]

I've been to two; I scored Rifleman the second time, on the last AQT of the day. It's very good training, especially for the low price. You get a lot of practice on the steady hold factors, trying to find your natural point of aim fast, and the steps of firing the shot.

I ran a 10/22 with Volquartsen auto bolt release and target hammer and TacSol extended magazine release, and a Simmons 22 mag scope. You don't really need anything beyond improved sights of some kind, but an auto bolt release and extended mag release really improve the feel of a 10/22. Also make sure your mags drop free. If they don't, some very light sanding on the sides of the mags can help.

This is the kind of sling they specialize in teaching:
http://www.ray-vin.com/tech/websling/webslinghelp.htm
They're available from http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart.com/?p=detail&pid=10&cat_id=
You will want a quick detach mount for the front sling attachment point so you can just leave the loop on your arm and detach the sling from the rifle during cease fires, just for speed and convenience.
Other slings are fine but the instructors may or may not be able to help you with the use of it.



I'd like to go back and try it with a centerfire next time. Note for those who would shoot centerfire; they don't let you rest the mag on the ground as a monopod, so AR shooters would be well served by 10 or 20 round mags.

[SLG]

I'd like to go back and try it with a centerfire next time. Note for those who would shoot centerfire; they don't let you rest the mag on the ground as a monopod, so AR shooters would be well served by 10 or 20 round mags.

Why not? That's an inherent advantage of the AR, one I would certainly take advantage of in the field.

[JB326]

I've shot 4-5 Appleseeds and I will continue to do so. In my opinion, there is no better way to learn basic rifle marksmanship than an Appleseed, and the history stuff is every bit as good as the marksmanship training. So far I've gotten the patch with a 10/22 and 1-4x scoped AR. My highest score to date is a 238 (with the AR).

I once shot a qual with my department issued Remington 700P/ Leupold 4.5-14x50 .308... I used holdover instead of changing my dope (it was a last minute decision to shoot that rifle) and all was well until I threw a round into the bolt raceway and jammed up the gun. It was just impossible to maintain the time requirements with a malfunction like that, so I missed a bolt action RIFLEMAN by 12 points. I must say though that running a 308 bolt gun that hard and fast was the most fun I'd ever had at an Appleseed event!

[jumpthestack]

Why not? That's an inherent advantage of the AR, one I would certainly take advantage of in the field.

I think the idea is that they want to keep things very basic. They don't let you use a bipod, sandbag rest, or magazine monopod, so you can practice holding the gun steady when those aren't available. Then when they are available, you can shoot even better.
http://appleseedinfo.org/as_faq.html

Can I use a bipod?

No. We teach a basic driving class, so we want you to learn to drive stick shift — that means with a sling, not a bipod. We also encourage you to use iron sights, but optics are okay.

[Tamara]

Why not? That's an inherent advantage of the AR, one I would certainly take advantage of in the field.

To be perfectly blunt? Because the genesis of the whole thing is from Fred of Fred's Rifle Stocks and the "Revolutionary War Veteran's Association".

It's all about loop slings and M-14s and fantasies of Cletus and Jasper slinging up and picking off blue-helmeted Bulgarians from sitting at 500 yards with iron sights. It seems to be only very tangentially related to "the field", unless the field in question is the one at Camp Perry.

Still, it's teaching people how to shoot a rifle, and I'm totally down with that.

(Alternate opinions expressed by an 'net friend of mine here (http://www.papadeltabravo.com/blog/?p=726) and here (http://www.papadeltabravo.com/blog/?p=917). I will add that, while I enjoyed the one I attended, my Shootin' Buddy, who has hundreds of hours of instruction, was less impressed. His rifle needed zeroing, and they really didn't allocate time to do so, nor would they let him zero during lunch, so he spent most of the day frustrated.)

[SLG]

That's kind of what I figured. Besides, I shoot an M4 alot, I want to go to Appleseed to shoot a nice blue and walnut .22.

[Tamara]

Like I said earlier, I think it's a splendid excuse to sex up a little 10/22 with some Tech Sights and spend a day in the sun, getting help with my position shooting. :)

[John Hearne]

Any one been to one, I'd love to hear your experience. Anyone want to come to one in MT, let me know.

I attended about two years ago. I shot a 10/22 with Tech Sights and a Volquartsen trigger group. Overall, I thought that it was time well spent. I hadn't had much instruction in classic rifleman skills and I definitely learned some stuff. For the price, the course really is hard to beat. I never found the course as demanding as others seem to have but I also shot Rifleman on the second day.

I keep planning on going back as they are taught fairly close to me. When I go again, I'll probably shoot my 15/22 with a BAD lever. My thinking is that with the right ammo, my 15/22 is wicked accurate and the magazine exchanges while looped up will require the BAD lever.

[Lomshek]

(Alternate opinions expressed by an 'net friend of mine here (http://www.papadeltabravo.com/blog/?p=726) and here (http://www.papadeltabravo.com/blog/?p=917). I will add that, while I enjoyed the one I attended, my Shootin' Buddy, who has hundreds of hours of instruction, was less impressed. His rifle needed zeroing, and they really didn't allocate time to do so, nor would they let him zero during lunch, so he spent most of the day frustrated.)

Man the PDB dude is not a fan! I've attended a few and had the exact opposite experience of him; those posts are from a few years ago and the program has definitely matured since then. Helpful instructors, kids and adults who were total or near newbies having a blast and learning the basics of sight alignment and trigger control plus some fun historical stories. I imagine like anything the quality of instructors can vary but all the instructors I dealt with were knowledgeable enough to help new shooters.

You'd think a guy with hundreds of hours of instruction would just fire his first COF and make sight adjustments during the "prep your rifle" time that Appleseed has before each string. Had to do that myself a few times when I was shooting a rifle that had previously been loaned to someone else.

[SLG]

You'd think a guy with hundreds of hours of instruction would just fire his first COF and make sight adjustments during the "prep your rifle" time that Appleseed has before each string. Had to do that myself a few times when I was shooting a rifle that had previously been loaned to someone else.

You'd think that, but you know how that goes. I don't know the guy, but the average training junkie who goes to a well known carbine or pistol course these days, probably has no clue how to build a proper shooting position, let alone how and why to use a shooting sling. IME, you have to have come through a decent precision rifle school to get any of that.

I'm sure there will be parts of Appleseed that will bore me, maybe even parts that I disagree with. However, I haven't been this excited for a shooting course in years, and anything that gives you a chance to practice your traditional rifle skills in a class setting (as in, those that let you hit the target) can't be bad.

[Mike Honcho]

I want to try it, but there's none scheduled in my state or the 4 states bordering it. Anybody know if they just haven't put up a 2012 schedule yet or not?

[ACP230]

Try appleseedinfo.org for the schedule. A lot of shoots are posted there already.

[Ed L]

I attended one back in 2006 using an FN FS2000 with an AimpointXD with a 3 M.O.A. dot. I had a decent time, especially since 5.56mm ammo was only about $200 for 1k rounds of surplus XM193. That was the longarm that I was using most at that time (I'd just done an article on it for SWAT) and no one gave me any issues about it other than curiousity. When asked where I got it, I probably shouldn't have joked, "from a UN Trooper who doesn't need it any more." Most shooting was done at 50 feet or 25 yards (I cannot remember which). On the second day we were able to take advantage of the range facilities and shoot at 300 and 400 yards.

The folks running it were enthusiastic and fun. The big thing to keep in mind is that the shooting and manipulations is is based on what you would do in traditional High Power competition and not a fighting carbine class or even a long range carbine class--the sling is tight around your support arm to the point that you use your control or fighting hand (the hand you use to pulll the trigger with) to do all magazine changes.

I don't know the person Tamara linked to, but we most assuredly did have a chance to sight in at the beginning, as my gun was not sighted in for 25 yards or 50 feet--which was where they wanted the guns sighted for because that was where we were doing most of our shooting.

Also, I would not consider this introductory gun training for someone who had never fired a rifle before, which seemed to be another of the guy's criticism, but an introduction to high power style rifle shooting--getting Americans back in touch with their rifleman heritage and presumably making them more conscious of political firearm issues that can effect them.

Fred the founder was there, and seemed surprisingly mellow for someone who put out stories for entertainment about getting together with your buddies and shooting invading UN troopers or something like that. He used to include this in an packet regarding Appleseed. Hey, if they want to fantasize about shooting invading UN troopers that's fine with me, because frankly ALL THIS ZOMBIE SHIT HAS GOT TO STOP!

[Tamara]

...let alone how and why to use a shooting sling.

I have no idea if Jeff Cooper covered that or not.


I don't know the person Tamara linked to, but we most assuredly did have a chance to sight in at the beginning...

I didn't, but then I was shooting a carbine that had already been zeroed, and not an M14 I'd just retrieved from the 'smith like my friend who was, I think, attempting to get into the spirit of the thing with his choice of rifle.

I think part of the problem with the wildly varying reports from Appleseeds is that it is very much a franchise operation, and individual instructors can vary wildly in personality and organizational skills. The one at which I shot was the first one at that location, with a scratch instructor team, and it had something of a slapdash, rushed feel to it. I would gladly attend another one with the same instructors at the same location, because I've no doubt they got the bugs ironed out.

FWIW, I had never shot NRA High Power before, my only prior experience with formal precision rifle shooting was on my college three-position smallbore team.

[GJM]

Having taken API 270 twice at Gunsite, the first time in 91 with Jeff Cooper as instructor, I can answer questions about sling technique with a practical rifle. Jeff favored the CW sling, as made by Milt Sparks, and later the Ching sling, so you could transition from carry to shooting without moving the sling. I have shot scores of game animals over the years with this sling arrangement, ranging in size from deer to elephant. Quick memo is you do not use the sling off hand, since the elbow is not supported, but do use it prone, sitting, kneeling and squat.

Is the Ching sling allowed at Appleseed, and is there a reason it wouldn't be preferred, since it is practical to carry the long gun with and quick to assume a shooting position with?

What is the ideal rim fire and center fire to bring, and should they be scoped?

[Tamara]

Is the Ching sling allowed at Appleseed, and is there a reason it wouldn't be preferred, since it is practical to carry the long gun with and quick to assume a shooting position with?

They push the loop sling pretty heavily. Remember that this is more oriented to formal competition marksmanship than anything like what you'd run into at Gunsite. IIRC, Shootin' Buddy was using a hasty sling. I used my house gun, an M4gery which has no sling (well, a single point that wasn't even clipped to the gun for that weekend,) and which was, at the time, fitted with only irons, mostly because I was curious to see how I would do with it.


What is the ideal rim fire and center fire to bring, and should they be scoped?

With a COF intended for iron-sighted .30-'06's, a scoped 10/22 is damn near cheating. ;)

[GJM]

That was confusing, are there separate center fire and rim fire stages/tests?

[Tamara]

That was confusing, are there separate center fire and rim fire stages/tests?

Nope. Just the "quick & dirty AQT (http://ironat500.blogspot.com/2007/07/aqt-target.html)", shot with whatever you brought.

[jar]

They push the loop sling pretty heavily.

Like many things at Appleseed, this depends on the instructor crew. In New England, they're pretty good about showing both loop sling and hasty sling and the pros/cons of each.

[Mike Honcho]

Try appleseedinfo.org for the schedule. A lot of shoots are posted there already.

No dice. They've got a ton scheduled, just none in my 5-state area. I won't travel very far for this particular event, not with the lukewarm reviews it's getting.

[Ed L]

I wrote:
I don't know the person Tamara linked to, but we most assuredly did have a chance to sight in at the beginning, as my gun was not sighted in for 25 yards or 50 feet--which was where they wanted the guns sighted for because that was where we were doing most of our shooting.

Tamara responded:
I didn't, but then I was shooting a carbine that had already been zeroed, and not an M14 I'd just retrieved from the 'smith like my friend who was, I think, attempting to get into the spirit of the thing with his choice of rifle.

I just realized the point of confusion--the gun I brought was sighted in--but was zeroed for 100 yards. So at the 25 yards that we were shooting at reduced sized targets, it would have been off by a bit. Other's people's rifles might have been sighted in at other distances also, so to make it easy and allow everyone to aim dead on, we sighted our guns in for the distance that we would be shooting at.

One thing that got a bit annoying was the attitude of one instructor--the maybe you can be one of us--a rifleman as they thought of themselves as some special elite. Yes, being able to shoot well is something to be proud of, but that attitude eemed out of place at that venue considering that I've never encountered that attitude with any of the many special operations or combat veterans whose classes I've attended.

Then that person started initiating a competition with an Appleseed that they held in another state, saying that they had more people show up in that other state, but maybe we could beat them by shooting better. The person was good natured about it and perhaps wanted to create some excitement, but It just seemed silly to me.

[Ed L]

That was confusing, are there separate center fire and rim fire stages/tests?

The appleseed is geared toward reduced distance ranges--I believe 25 yards. This makes it easy to find places that can accommodate it and saves a lot of time going back and forth to check targets and post new ones. People bring what they can bring. When I attended back in 2006, there were mostly a mix of M1as, M1 Garands, a few FN FALs, ARs, a few .22s, and one person bought that Korean semiauto .223 Daewoo, and a few .22s. Since then ammo prices have gone up quite a bit, then come down some but not to the levels of those times. So there has been more of an emphasis of setting up .22 rifles like the Ruger 10/22 with better sights and sling in order to compete and keep it affordable.

Not all venues have more than 25 yards. The one I attended was at Tac Pto shooting center in Mingus, TX that had some very long ranges available that we used for a bit on the second day. But most of the shooting was done at 25 yards for the reasons I explained.

[Tamara]

I just realized the point of confusion--the gun I brought was sighted in--but was zeroed for 100 yards. So at the 25 yards that we were shooting at reduced sized targets, it would have been off by a bit. Other's people's rifles might have been sighted in at other distances also, so to make it easy and allow everyone to aim dead on, we sighted our guns in for the distance that we would be shooting at.

Yeah, there was a very abbreviated sight-in period, which was no real problem for me, since my carbine was only a few clicks off for the 25-yd. range (which was also on a steep uphill slope, given the terrain available. I abandoned my borrowed nylon groundcloth when I found myself sliding backwards on prone strings...)

Shootin' Buddy had brought a roughly-boresighted, fresh-from-the-'smith M14, and was obviously expecting the kind of zeroing session he'd experienced at Gunsite/Thunder Ranch/Shootrite/YFA, and the rushed format of the two-day Appleseed curriculum didn't allow for that, which left a frustrated shooter just blowing rounds into the berm fruitlessly. :(

[Ed L]

Yeah, there was a very abbreviated sight-in period, which was no real problem for me, since my carbine was only a few clicks off for the 25-yd. range (which was also on a steep uphill slope, given the terrain available. I abandoned my borrowed nylon groundcloth when I found myself sliding backwards on prone strings...)

Shootin' Buddy had brought a roughly-boresighted, fresh-from-the-'smith M14, and was obviously expecting the kind of zeroing session he'd experienced at Gunsite/Thunder Ranch/Shootrite/YFA, and the rushed format of the two-day Appleseed curriculum didn't allow for that, which left a frustrated shooter just blowing rounds into the berm fruitlessly. :(

Now that would really suck. I remember something mentioned about an abreviated sight-in period, but I think that was for an event where people showed up with their guns already sighted in for the expected distance to just confirm zero and make any minor adjustments.

I drove 2 hrs each way to attend for two days and if I expereinced something like that I doubt I would have returned the second day.

At the Appleseed that I attended we had a bunch of different people (I believe it was 87) who showed up with a bunch of different guns sighted in at a bunch of different distances. I can say that they definitely allowed adequate shots and time to sight in our guns because they worked hard with the person with the Daewoo which was being a beast to get zeroed. He had the manual, but if I remember correctly, the sight adjustments listed were designed for a much further distance, or soemthing to that extent.

The abreviated sight-in may be fine if they are holding a match where everyone attending is aware of the distance and comes prepared, but not for an event to introduce newcomers who arrive with all different types of rifles with different sightings.

It sounds like the one Tamara attended was run differently than the one I attended.

I had not thought of it in a while, but it was kinda fun meeting different people. If I did it again I would likley set my Ruger 10/22 up with an M1 carbine conversion kit: http://eabco.com/m1_carbine_ruger_1022_tribute.htm, my Spikes Tactical .22 upper for my AR, or maybe my M1 carbine itself since the gun is so accurate and easy and fun to shoot. I'm not sure I would spend the money on .223 ammo, even though I have done so at countless courses, since the Appleseed events they hold are mosely about close range and accuracy within a high power shooting style.

[mnealtx]

FWIW, I had never shot NRA High Power before, my only prior experience with formal precision rifle shooting was on my college three-position smallbore team.

Wonder what they'd do if you showed up with an Anschutz 54 Super Match?

Man, I miss that rifle...

[ACP230]

As it happened all the rifles I shot at Appleseed were close enough at 25 meters to be used with minor sight corrections.

If that wasn't true I would have had time to figure where I was hitting at the first Redcoat target and make corrections between it an the next stage. Those settings could have been refined at the next stage which consisted of six one-inch black squares at 25 meters. This is where most of the people I shot with made their corrections. Rifles used included lots of 10/22s, with irons, or scoped. Some other .22s, including some bolt actions and tube fed semis. Center fires included M1s, an FAL or two, a few M1As, and one Russian Moisin bolt rifle.

Nobody seemed to have insurmountable trouble getting zeroed, and the instructors were available, and able, to help those who did have problems. I had trouble seeing the black squares at the first shoot.
A scope took care of that at later ones.

[Tamara]

ACP230,

I have no doubt that you experienced what you did. Perhaps if Shootin' Buddy had attended the Appleseeds you have, he wouldn't have had such a negative experience. As it was, the recent addition of a Vortex flash suppressor to his M14 had affected the zero enough that it wasn't even on the AQT paper @ 25yds, leading to the comedy of errors that frustrated his day.

[TGS]

The fact they list at the bottom of the page that Appleseed is not a subversive group kinda makes me iffy.

I've NEVER seen that sort of disclaimer with ANY shooting organization or event I've ever attended, nor have I ever seen the slightest bit of need to address that with any other group/event.

I'm definitely not interested in a bunch of idiots talking about how, "the blood of tyrants needs to be spilled time to time," and I got the feeling that's what Appleseed is from reading the website. You guys didn't get that from the events you've attended?

[Lomshek]

I'm definitely not interested in a bunch of idiots talking about how, "the blood of tyrants needs to be spilled time to time," and I got the feeling that's what Appleseed is from reading the website. You guys didn't get that from the events you've attended?

Not at all. The stories are more like "This is what some of the founders went through. We owe it to them to keep the heritage of shooting alive." There's no "arm now for the coming battles" or "look out for black helicopters".

[ACP230]

Stories on Appleseed in the Lamestream Media called them militia and subversive, ignoring what they actually did and said. The notice mentioned above started appearing after a string of those "reports" appeared in the press.

The Appleseed net site and literature from the program tells attendees to check their rifle's zeros before the day of the event. It also suggests much ammo shooters will need and suggests bringing snacks and water.

I also thought it was a good idea to bring a back up rifle to Appleseed, in case something went wrong with my primary. (Murphy knows where rifle ranges are too.)

[JB326]

Not at all. The stories are more like "This is what some of the founders went through. We owe it to them to keep the heritage of shooting alive." There's no "arm now for the coming battles" or "look out for black helicopters".

Agreed. If I remember correctly, I've been to 4-5 Appleseeds now, and every "shoot boss" is different in how they present the history lessons throughout the day. But, of the ones I've attended only one instructor came off as fringe-ish, and the others have all ranged from good to beyond excellent (in my opinion) when presenting the story of how the US came to be, and telling the stories of some of our heroes from the Revolutionary War.

I've never seen any militia type recruiting or talk going on at any of our events. All of the events I've attended have actually been sponsored and hosted by the Sheriff of my county, who also happens to be my boss.

[JDM]

I'm pretty set on attending one of these this summer in NM.

Any new info/experiences to share?

[littlejerry]

I went to 2 a few years ago. Qualified with my CZ-452 LUX on my first shoot, didn't quite make it with a Garand that had a poorly fitted stock at my second shoot.

Great experience. Take a new shooter and a .22. Most people come away pretty damn surprised at how accurate you can be with iron sights.

One day I'll make it out to another one with an AR.

[JDM]

... and a .22.

I keep reading this. Am I going to be missing anything if I shoot this with an AR?

[ACP230]

There have been ARs on the line at every Appleseed I've been to.
My son shot his first one with my AR.

We both shot .22s at the next one. Cost was a real factor. Surplus ammo had gone up in price,
or dried up, and I preferred to keep the .223 and .308 ammo I had for other uses.

Bringing a .22 as a backup rifle wouldn't be a bad idea even if you use an AR as primary.

[Tamara]

I keep reading this. Am I going to be missing anything if I shoot this with an AR?

I don't know that you'd necessarily be missing anything, but I think that I'm probably going to run my M&P15-22 next time. Cheaper and quieter.

Since it's a pure position-shooting marksmanship clinic usually held at 25yds, it's not like you really gain terribly much shooting the centerfire long gun..

[seabiscuit]

Just invited my father-in-between law and his son to one next month. I shot NRA smallbore for three years in high school, and put up 97s and 98s from sitting. They have zero to little shooting experience. Looking for some rifle recommendations:

I have a 15-22, stock iron sights, Wilderness Tactical Giles sling. Thinking this is the rifle for 13 yo brother in law, as he's pretty skinny and it's a light rifle.

I also have a bolt action scoped Ruger with seven round mags and a sling which quickly extends to use as a shooting sling. I'm thinking this is the rifle for me, since I have more experience and the bolt won't bother me.

Father-in-law has a RRA AR he got as a gift and hasn't shot yet. Not sure of he should shoot it at Appleseed, might benefit more from the 15-22. But his son will be probably be shooting that rifle.

Is it possible/advisable to swap rifles as we go?

[Lomshek]

Just invited my father-in-between law and his son to one next month. I shot NRA smallbore for three years in high school, and put up 97s and 98s from sitting. They have zero to little shooting experience. Looking for some rifle recommendations:

I have a 15-22, stock iron sights, Wilderness Tactical Giles sling. Thinking this is the rifle for 13 yo brother in law, as he's pretty skinny and it's a light rifle. Ditch the tac sling and put on an old school GI nylon web sling. The tac sling will be useless for the sling supported positional shooting they teach.

I also have a bolt action scoped Ruger with seven round mags and a sling which quickly extends to use as a shooting sling. I'm thinking this is the rifle for me, since I have more experience and the bolt won't bother me. Some folks do use a bolt gun but you will be a rare bird if you can keep up the firing tempo.

Father-in-law has a RRA AR he got as a gift and hasn't shot yet. Not sure of he should shoot it at Appleseed, might benefit more from the 15-22. But his son will be probably be shooting that rifle. If nothing else get him a CMMG .22 conversion kit. He can use the .223 but that is spendy for many folks.

Is it possible/advisable to swap rifles as we go? The instructors are generally cool as long as safety is maintained with swaps but the Chinese Fire Drill of musical guns can screw folks up.



For any gun you must have at least two mags (10 rounds minimum to follow the official COF but that's up to the shooter) and you would be better served by at least 4 mags.

[seabiscuit]

Figured I'd drop the tac sling and get a USGI sling.

Right now I've only got two seven rounders for my bolt, but they make ten rounders. I'll try and pick up two of those.

I believe FIL already has .223 ammo that came with the gift of the rifle, so he may be able to use that. Do you think the short sight radius (it's a carbine) and increased recoil will be an issue? He's a pretty bulky dude.

[ACP230]

My son shot his first Appleseed, at 17 or 18, with my AR and commercial .223 FMJ ammo.
Made a dent in my stash of South African PMP rounds, but none in his shoulder.
The .223 doesn't recoil much in any gun I've fired it in.

The short sight radius of a carbine didn't seem to bother other shooters at the Appleseed's we've been to.

At one of those two shooters (father and son, I think) were shooting the same Garand. The older guy would put on a forward-mounted scope
when he shot. The younger used the GI irons. The shoot boss had no problems with it.

[shootist26]

I shot Appleseed with my 10/22 LTR and an AR15 just to mix it up a bit. Total round count for 2 days was ~800 22LR and 200 .223

[nycnoob]

This thread needs a BUMP!

I am still going to AppleSeeed I make it to a shoot a few times a year. I much prefer going to shoot AppleSeed then hanging out at a normal rifle range.

This year I have been bringing friends with kids (about 11 years old) to a few shoots. Everyone had a great time.

One budy of mine regularly teaches CQB carbine, he loved the program. He was so excited to finally get some good instruction on prone.
He never learned traditional marksmanship correctly and thought this was an excellent program, learned much about marksmanship he never knew and had a great time.
And all the expensive toys he brought did not help him one bit (22lr rifles with silencers, fancy brand named bolt guns) since he really needed to practice his shooting,
It was a "The Indian not the arrow" sort of thing.


I have switched one of my 10/22's from a tech sight to the NoDakSpud rear sight with rail http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm so I can put a red dot on for guests. The latest versions of these sights have double holes in the adjustment ring so that one can get finer adjustments per click. The recent sale at Primary Arms https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_s/586.htm scored me some well thought of target red dots for only $50. And this weekend I am going to try out the BearTooth Comb raising kit http://www.beartooth-products.com/review-and-purchase-products/comb-raising-kits.html to that my guests can get a decent cheek weld with the optic.

[EM_]

Like I said earlier, I think it's a splendid excuse to sex up a little 10/22 with some Tech Sights and spend a day in the sun, getting help with my position shooting. :)

Missed this thread the first time so I read from beginning. This was all I got out of it. :cool:

[Alpha Sierra]

I find the whole idea quite amusing. Becoming a "Rifleman" by shooting reduced silhouettes at 25 yards (no wind or elevation changes to deal with) with a .22LR rifle (no recoil to affect your position). Yeah right......

I saw one of these going on at my club. Don't know why but I got the wrong vibe from the red hats.

[Jeep]

I find the whole idea quite amusing. Becoming a "Rifleman" by shooting reduced silhouettes at 25 yards (no wind or elevation changes to deal with) with a .22LR rifle (no recoil to affect your position). Yeah right......

I saw one of these going on at my club. Don't know why but I got the wrong vibe from the red hats.

Alpha Sierra: No one becomes a great long-range shot by shooting .22's at 25 yards--but you do learn the fundamentals. I have never been to an Appleseed shoot, and probably never will attend one, but I learned to shoot 50 years ago in an NRA program in which we shot targets at 50 feet with .22 target rifles. The fundamentals were thoroughly stressed, and some years later when I was in the Army I knew what I was doing better than most of my instructors.

Based on my experience, I approve of any program that gives shooters a thorough grounding in the fundamentals of marksmanship, and from what I've read, the Appleseed project does that.

[John Hearne]

The fundamentals taught at Appleseed's are necessary preconditions for long range success. Shooting 22's at 25 yards doesn't mean you can hit at 500. But if you can hit at 500, you have the skill to shoot 22's at 25 yards very well.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Based on my experience, I approve of any program that gives shooters a thorough grounding in the fundamentals of marksmanship, and from what I've read, the Appleseed project does that.

This. A good Appleseed clinic will help bone up on your basic position shooting. It's also my experience that the Appleseed volunteer instructor ranks are lousy with NRA High Power shooters and other serious riflery geeks.

[nycnoob]

OK lets turn it around,

What else, besides appleseed, do people do to keep current on rifle skills?

The only rifle ranges that I found were over a two hour drive from me and mostly they require a bench rest sort of precision shooting. I could only stand that for about an hour or so before getting bored and going home. The lack of comradery also made the range difficult to motivate myself to get in the car and drive to. The net result is perhaps 4 hours of bench rest shooting a year when I belonged to a private rifle range.

Appleseed is a whole weekend, with a structured shooting program and it includes a performance test and only a $70 entrance fee. I can motivate myself to get a hotel room for two days of shooting a few times a year.

[nycnoob]

It's also my experience that the Appleseed volunteer instructor ranks are lousy with NRA High Power shooters and other serious riflery geeks.

I am not sure what you mean here.

I have seen some CMP shooters at AppleSeed, I understand CMP is encouraging appleseed for additional practice.

Appleseed seems to have adjusted its tone over the past few year. I always thought the "are you a rifleman or cook?" was a great come on line, but it seems to have put people off with its hard edge so now it is a bit softer and family friendly in tone (material is about the same) and politics are explicitly off limits for discussion. (So I always needle them with a few questions about "common sense gun laws" )

[feudist]

I am not sure what you mean here.

I have seen some CMP shooters at AppleSeed, I understand CMP is encouraging appleseed for additional practice.

Appleseed seems to have adjusted its tone over the past few year. I always thought the "are you a rifleman or cook?" was a great come on line, but it seems to have put people off with its hard edge so now it is a bit softer and family friendly in tone (material is about the same) and politics are explicitly off limits for discussion. (So I always needle them with a few questions about "common sense gun laws" )

"Lousy with" is a colloquialism for "Packed with", I.E. there are many NRA High power shooters in the coach's ranks.

[nycnoob]

"Lousy with" is a colloquialism for "Packed with"

I would never have guessed.

[Lomshek]

I would never have guessed.

I think it's a generational thing. I'm 46 and familiar with it but it was really used more before my time.

[Alpha Sierra]

It's also my experience that the Appleseed volunteer instructor ranks are lousy with NRA High Power shooters

Not in Ohio. In fact, the Appleseed geeks here seem to shun anyone who knows more than them about rifle marksmanship.

[feudist]

I think it's a generational thing. I'm 46 and familiar with it but it was really used more before my time.

Are you saying Tam is older than 46?

:cool:

[Charlie Foxtrot]

Put together a bog post on Appleseed. Summary: do it! http://notonemoregunlaw.blogspot.com/2014/07/training-project-appleseed.html

Be sure to read the included Massad Ayoob's links on Appleseed.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I thought I'd necro this thread instead of starting a new one...

I'll be attending my first Appleseed in a couple of weeks. Up until now, my only formal rifle instruction has been in the Boy Scouts 20+ years ago and a short-range hoser carbine class taught by some local instructors. I've done bit of reading (and watched some YouTube videos) on positional shooting and sling use, but that's about it. I've got most everything on their recommended gear list and threw a GI web sling and some Tech Sights on my old 10/22.

Do you guys have any tips or tricks to help me prepare? Is there anything gear wise you guys have found helpful that wasn't on the list? Is it worthwhile for me to try my hand at all of these positions before I receive formal instruction?

TIA

[john c]

I thought I'd necro this thread instead of starting a new one...

I'll be attending my first Appleseed in a couple of weeks. Up until now, my only formal rifle instruction has been in the Boy Scouts 20+ years ago and a short-range hoser carbine class taught by some local instructors. I've done bit of reading (and watched some YouTube videos) on positional shooting and sling use, but that's about it. I've got most everything on their recommended gear list and threw a GI web sling and some Tech Sights on my old 10/22.

Do you guys have any tips or tricks to help me prepare? Is there anything gear wise you guys have found helpful that wasn't on the list? Is it worthwhile for me to try my hand at all of these positions before I receive formal instruction?

TIA

I've been to a couple of Appleseeds over the years with my kids and nephews, etc.

In no particular order:

-Tech sights work great, but for your first appleseed consider using a scope. There's so much else going on that you'll have an easier time getting your hits with a scope. One positive about iron sights is that eye relief isn't an issue, while for scopes it is an issue. Make sure your scope eye relief is usable in the prone position. Basically, make sure your eye isn't too close to the scope to be usable.

-If the trigger in your 10/22 is stock, pay the money and get an upgraded trigger group. This will help a lot. The Ruger version is pretty good, and you can get it in time for the event. If you had more time, you could send your trigger group to Brimstone Gunsmithing. Their triggers are well worth the $40. This is a very worthwhile upgrade to you 10/22 in general.

-If you're going to work on something before you go, it's getting into a prone position quickly. Actually, sitting position is much harder for me to get into quickly.

-Depending on your age and flexibility, start taking Ibuprofen the morning of Appleseed, and don't stop until a few days later. It will keep the soreness of all of the unusual movements down. You need to build up a level of NSAIDs in your bloodstream for them to work, and keep that level until the soreness goes away.

-Bring all of your 10/22 magazines. If you start having issue with one magazine, toss it aside and go to another magazine. After the day is over, you can watch a youtube tutorial and retension the mags that stop working.

Good luck! I really enjoyed every one I've been to.

[Totem Polar]

I've been to a couple of Appleseeds over the years with my kids and nephews, etc.

In no particular order:

-Tech sights work great, but for your first appleseed consider using a scope. There's so much else going on that you'll have an easier time getting your hits with a scope. One positive about iron sights is that eye relief isn't an issue, while for scopes it is an issue. Make sure your scope eye relief is usable in the prone position. Basically, make sure your eye isn't too close to the scope to be usable.

-If the trigger in your 10/22 is stock, pay the money and get an upgraded trigger group. This will help a lot. The Ruger version is pretty good, and you can get it in time for the event. If you had more time, you could send your trigger group to Brimstone Gunsmithing. Their triggers are well worth the $40. This is a very worthwhile upgrade to you 10/22 in general.

-If you're going to work on something before you go, it's getting into a prone position quickly. Actually, sitting position is much harder for me to get into quickly.

-Depending on your age and flexibility, start taking Ibuprofen the morning of Appleseed, and don't stop until a few days later. It will keep the soreness of all of the unusual movements down. You need to build up a level of NSAIDs in your bloodstream for them to work, and keep that level until the soreness goes away.

-Bring all of your 10/22 magazines. If you start having issue with one magazine, toss it aside and go to another magazine. After the day is over, you can watch a youtube tutorial and retension the mags that stop working.

Good luck! I really enjoyed every one I've been to. Solid post. Thanks.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I've been to a couple of Appleseeds over the years with my kids and nephews, etc.

In no particular order:

-Tech sights work great, but for your first appleseed consider using a scope. There's so much else going on that you'll have an easier time getting your hits with a scope. One positive about iron sights is that eye relief isn't an issue, while for scopes it is an issue. Make sure your scope eye relief is usable in the prone position. Basically, make sure your eye isn't too close to the scope to be usable.

-If the trigger in your 10/22 is stock, pay the money and get an upgraded trigger group. This will help a lot. The Ruger version is pretty good, and you can get it in time for the event. If you had more time, you could send your trigger group to Brimstone Gunsmithing. Their triggers are well worth the $40. This is a very worthwhile upgrade to you 10/22 in general.

-If you're going to work on something before you go, it's getting into a prone position quickly. Actually, sitting position is much harder for me to get into quickly.

-Depending on your age and flexibility, start taking Ibuprofen the morning of Appleseed, and don't stop until a few days later. It will keep the soreness of all of the unusual movements down. You need to build up a level of NSAIDs in your bloodstream for them to work, and keep that level until the soreness goes away.

-Bring all of your 10/22 magazines. If you start having issue with one magazine, toss it aside and go to another magazine. After the day is over, you can watch a youtube tutorial and retension the mags that stop working.

Good luck! I really enjoyed every one I've been to.

Awesome intel. Thank you!

Brimstone is right up the road from me, but it looks like lead time will be an issue. I may try to track down a Ruger BX trigger in the meantime.

The NSAIDs advice is great. I definitely wouldn't have thought of that on my own. I'm not geriatric, but at 35, I'm more prone to wear and tear than I used to be.

Thanks again!

[scw2]

Knee pads can be helpful especially if on concrete, possibly elbow pads depending on what type of mat you’re working with.

Practice changing mags from sitting and prone positions.

If it’s your first time worry more about the process versus results so you don’t burn in bad reps trying to make a certain score.

[Sammy1]

I did one with my son and it was a great experience. Go with a Ruger 10/22 and peep sights.

[AKDoug]

I've qualified for my rifleman patch with an AR-15 with red dot, 10-22 with peep, and 10-22 with scope. I have gotten close with a Ruger 77-22 bolt with iron sights, but I drop points on time in a couple of the rounds trying to work the bolt.

I'll never do it again with a center fire. Too much money for what I get out of it. It's a reduced distance designed for .22's and that's the best way to shoot it.

None of it is a "gimme".. I'll go again the next time around with my daughters that are getting really close to qualifying. The Alaskan instructors are excellent and I don't get any negative from them about firearms we use, even though I know they're all in love with Garands.

[Clusterfrack]

At Appleseed a while ago, my at-the-time-13 year old daughter wore low rise jeans despite my advice. She got hot brass down the back of her pants but still scored Sharpshooter.

I and my precision rifle partner both took home Rifleman patches with scoped .22 bolt guns, after some complaining from the match staff because we didn't use the Appleseed orthodoxy.

I highly recommend Appleseed. They do things their way, and that's fine.

[Duelist]

I got my Rifleman patch with a scoped, heavy barreled Savage bolt action. Challenging, but satisfying.

[AKDoug]

At Appleseed a while ago, my at-the-time-13 year old daughter wore low rise jeans despite my advice. She got hot brass down the back of her pants but still scored Sharpshooter.

I and my precision rifle partner both took home Rifleman patches with scoped .22 bolt guns, after some complaining from the match staff because we didn't use the Appleseed orthodoxy.

I highly recommend Appleseed. They do things their way, and that's fine.

My 15 y.o. daughter took a hot 5.56 shell under her collar making a perfect 5.56 brass outline burn on her collarbone at Appleseed. The following day she went to volleyball camp. Her roommate at camp recognized what it was immediately and told her she was a shooter too. They are still friends years later.

[littlejerry]

It's been a while, but when I went I qualified Rifleman with an open sight bolt action 22(CZ452).

It's certainly easier with a scope, but I don't think that is necessarily the point. There is value is learning what a clean shot "feels" like without instant visual feedback.

[Chain]

I hit exactly 210 with a Tech-Sighted 10/22 --- and when you hit the score exactly as opposed to >210 you get dunked in water. The range we were at didn't have running water so I got to flop down in a puddle from the rainstorm the day before :D
https://i.imgur.com/WZs7amw.jpg

Need to do it again and score higher, and also do it with my AR.

And not to beat a dead horse, but to address the observation that the Appleseed-specific conditions (.22s, reduced targets, sling-supported positions) don't properly reflect real world tactical environments, 2 things:
1) it's a "walk before you run" thing --- so, if you*can't* shoot their course of fire well, given their conditions, then maybe you *do* have some fundamentals to address before going further
2) the history segments that are presented throughout the weekend, and their contribution to context for the skills as well as the emphasis on shooting culture, are about worth the price of admission all on their own.

[ken grant]

Got my patch at the very first "Rifleman's Boot Camp" , was 69 yrs. old at the time and shooting a M1A . Camped on the range 10 days. Took me a long time to get over that trip .
Got another at the first Appleseed held in Ga. shooting the same rifle .
My son shot an AR and my Grandson shot a 10/22 with Tech Sights at the same Ga. Appleseed and we were the first time for 3 generations to attended an Appleseed .

[Slalom.45]

Just wanted to jump in with some Appleseed praise here. I took my 15 yoa son to a one day clinic in Ft. Worth a few weeks ago. He's not big into shooting, but does deer hunt a bit and I thought the rifle training would do us both some good. (I'm really a USPSA guy and don't shoot rifles much at all)

He enjoyed it and shot rifleman with a red dot on a 10/22 three of the four runs with did through the test deal. Think I would have done 4/4 but didn't realize the first was being timed and actually counted.

We had a great time and I'd like to go to one of their known distance events in the future.

[Alpha Sierra]

I've thought about going a few times. Even talked to my state coordinator and got approved to skip the 25 meter stuff if I wanted to go to a KD shoot based on my NRA/CMP service rifle experience.

But every time I'm about to press the "buy" button I back out because I cringe at the thought of sitting through their lunchtime storytelling.

[MK11]

I've thought about going a few times. Even talked to my state coordinator and got approved to skip the 25 meter stuff if I wanted to go to a KD shoot based on my NRA/CMP service rifle experience.

But every time I'm about to press the "buy" button I back out because I cringe at the thought of sitting through their lunchtime storytelling.

I'm probably ignorant but I enjoyed that more than I expected. I thought they did a nice job showing how the battle of Lexington was due to a combination of bad luck, miscommunication and a couple assholes on each side egging things on.

I won't be back until they start allowing the M&P 15-22 again, though.

[RJ]

I followed up on a suggestion from another post by Moylan on Project Appleseed in this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46097-Please-recommend-good-instructor-s-courses

Turns out there is a 2 day "Pistol Clinic" in my area, at the Manatee Gun and Archery Club, in Myakka City FL Sat/Sun May 1-2, 2021. Cost is $120 plus $7.50 range fee daily.

The course link is here, described as "Learn the basics of handgun safety, accuracy, and control. All the fundamentals needed to safely handle a handgun will be covered. Skills taught include proper stance, sighting the target, trigger control, Natural Point of Aim, speed drills, and many other topic."

https://appleseedinfo.org/programs-pistol-clinic

Has anyone taken one of these Pistol Clinics? If so, what did you think of it?

[scw2]

Will send you a PM

[RancidSumo]

I followed up on a suggestion from another post by Moylan on Project Appleseed in this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46097-Please-recommend-good-instructor-s-courses

Turns out there is a 2 day "Pistol Clinic" in my area, at the Manatee Gun and Archery Club, in Myakka City FL Sat/Sun May 1-2, 2021. Cost is $120 plus $7.50 range fee daily.

The course link is here, described as "Learn the basics of handgun safety, accuracy, and control. All the fundamentals needed to safely handle a handgun will be covered. Skills taught include proper stance, sighting the target, trigger control, Natural Point of Aim, speed drills, and many other topic."

https://appleseedinfo.org/programs-pistol-clinic

Has anyone taken one of these Pistol Clinics? If so, what did you think of it?


I didn't know they had pistol classes.

I attended one of the rifle clinics 10-12 years ago (got my Rifleman patch around here somewhere) and enjoyed it. That said, if it is anything like the rifle clinic, you will probably have fun but doubt you'll learn too much if you already have a decent grasp on the fundamentals. The rifle clinic was pretty basic stuff. I think they are great for new shooters though - haven't thought about Appleseed in years but I should try to get out to one with the GF to have someone other than me explain this stuff.

If you are just after a fun weekend at the range with some structure, I'm sure you'll find that.

[Moylan]

I've helped teach a couple of them, but I never actually took a full one. :)

Some things to know. There is no holster work in these classes. They involve no defensive tactics, there's no "mindset" lecture, they're really not fighting pistol classes. They focus on teaching the fundamentals of pistol shooting. The curriculum (ISTM, FWIW) is very solid, built on good contemporary pistolcraft. There is a serious focus on accuracy, and the speed portions of the program are pretty understated. In the qual test, which is shot at 7 yards, the fastest stage requires a magazine change and ten rounds total fired in 15 seconds. (Extra mag can be on your person or on the table next to you.) On the other hand, the targets for this stage are fairly small. We're not using A zones from USPSA targets and suchlike. Because of the accuracy standard, I believe that many shooters will find the qualification test harder than they might expect.

Most shooters use 22lr pistols, but of course centerfire is welcome.

Let me know if there are any specific question I can answer!

[RJ]

Thanks guys, I probably should have mentioned, this class is not for me, but someone else who is new to shooting.

[scw2]

I think it’s probably a decent option for a new shooter. The minor quibbles I had are things you can share before/after the class with the shooter if you’re so inclined, and as others have also stated it’s heavily accuracy focused so they’ll need additional practice or instruction from others on shooting faster. But honestly if they can meet the accuracy standards for the course of fire they’ll be miles ahead of the average shooter you see at ranges.

[littlejerry]

Great to hear this is an option. I've had many requests recently for a good basic pistol course. This could be an excellent option.

I know at PF we are highly focused on defensive or even competitive firearm use but I find many new shooters put off by that context. Not that they aren't motivated to understand how to use a pistol defensively (for most it's the main reason they bought one), but frankly it's a crawl-walk-run thing.

I think of this as a basic driver's ed course which doesn't discuss apex's, trail braking, towing considerations, etc.

[Shoresy]

I didn't know they had pistol classes.

I attended one of the rifle clinics 10-12 years ago (got my Rifleman patch around here somewhere) and enjoyed it. That said, if it is anything like the rifle clinic, you will probably have fun but doubt you'll learn too much if you already have a decent grasp on the fundamentals. The rifle clinic was pretty basic stuff. I think they are great for new shooters though - haven't thought about Appleseed in years but I should try to get out to one with the GF to have someone other than me explain this stuff.

If you are just after a fun weekend at the range with some structure, I'm sure you'll find that.

Pistol Clinics are new within the last year or so. Moylan hit the nail on the head re both subject matter and the description and difficulty of the test.

[littlejerry]

I've helped teach a couple of them, but I never actually took a full one. :)

Some things to know. There is no holster work in these classes. They involve no defensive tactics, there's no "mindset" lecture, they're really not fighting pistol classes. They focus on teaching the fundamentals of pistol shooting. The curriculum (ISTM, FWIW) is very solid, built on good contemporary pistolcraft. There is a serious focus on accuracy, and the speed portions of the program are pretty understated. In the qual test, which is shot at 7 yards, the fastest stage requires a magazine change and ten rounds total fired in 15 seconds. (Extra mag can be on your person or on the table next to you.) On the other hand, the targets for this stage are fairly small. We're not using A zones from USPSA targets and suchlike. Because of the accuracy standard, I believe that many shooters will find the qualification test harder than they might expect.

Most shooters use 22lr pistols, but of course centerfire is welcome.

Let me know if there are any specific question I can answer!

What do you think is the minimum qualification/age/fitness level for someone to attend?

[Moylan]

What do you think is the minimum qualification/age/fitness level for someone to attend?

I am not sure about age. The last pistol event I worked at, the rule was that participants had to be 21 or older, but I honestly don't know if that was the individual shoot boss's decision, or if that is a program-wide rule. I'll check on that and get back to you.

Edit: The age limit nationally is 18, and in certain states the age limit is 21. Namely: Hawaii, Maryland, Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, DC (I know, not a state), Washington

Qualification: the program is suitable for absolute, utter beginners, as well as for more accomplished shooters. It can be the first time you've handled a pistol.

Fitness: the main thing is that you need to be capable of safely handling a firearm. We'll teach you how to do that, but you must be able physically, mentally, emotionally, of following the safety rules and such. Apart from that, people of virtually any age, fitness level, physical ability level and whatnot have participated in Appleseed events, and we bend over backwards to make our events safe and fun for everyone. The rifle clinics are actually more physically difficult than the pistol clinics because you're up and down into prone, and getting slung up, and sitting and lying in uncomfortable positions all day long at the rifle events. Pistol events have less physical impact. These events are definitely for everyone. Nobody will ever try to push you (I mean, whoever, not you personally) into doing something you're not comfortable with, and instructors will be extremely attentive to make sure nobody tries to do anything that's not safe. (Most common example, in my experience, is that instructors will ask youth shooters at rifle events not to do the transition from standing to sitting, if we see that the shooter is likely to not be reliable at controlling the muzzle during the transition.) Anyway, the events are for everyone and you participate physically as much or as little as you want.

The thing to keep in mind about Appleseed is that marksmanship is the hook to get people to come hear the stories. We're all about American heritage. Marksmanship is important, but I'm more interested in people getting to know Isaac Davis than in shooting the qualification!

[luckyman]

Just attended my first day of Appleseed 2-day rifle training.
I was using a 10-22; other students were all over the map from Garands to ARs to 223 bolt actions. Man, 75$ for 2 days with a 3:2 student to teacher ratio is hard to beat.

The safety procedures weren’t up to Scotty Reitz’s organization but then IMO few places are, and I never felt scared about anything.

They definitely teach “state of the art = WWII, and everything since then has gone downhill”. There are a couple of things that they do different from Scotty that I would love to ask some modern training org why what Appleseed does might be less than optimal. But overall as a beginning rifle shooter I got a ton out of day one. And they were great at helping me adjust my shooting positions to accommodate for various injuries.

So far I’ve learned I generally suck at rifle shooting; except for standing/offhand where I blow everyone else away.

I hope day 2 is cooler; day 1 was 101 degrees or above for most of the day.

[Moylan]

Just attended my first day of Appleseed 2-day rifle training.
I was using a 10-22; other students were all over the map from Garands to ARs to 223 bolt actions. Man, 75$ for 2 days with a 3:2 student to teacher ratio is hard to beat.

The safety procedures weren’t up to Scotty Reitz’s organization but then IMO few places are, and I never felt scared about anything.

They definitely teach “state of the art = WWII, and everything since then has gone downhill”. There are a couple of things that they do different from Scotty that I would love to ask some modern training org why what Appleseed does might be less than optimal. But overall as a beginning rifle shooter I got a ton out of day one. And they were great at helping me adjust my shooting positions to accommodate for various injuries.

So far I’ve learned I generally suck at rifle shooting; except for standing/offhand where I blow everyone else away.

I hope day 2 is cooler; day 1 was 101 degrees or above for most of the day.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I hope day 2 did cool off for you. I can't speak about carbine shooting from the standpoint of the modern training organization, but if you have any questions about the 'whys' of Appleseed's approach you can certainly run them by me. Organizationally, we do not view contemporary rifle shooting developments as a devolution, but there are probably some individual instructors still out there with a bit of that mindset.

The safety side of Appleseed has always seemed to me to be extremely sound. If there were any gaps or slips that you'd be willing to pass on to me in a pm, I would be grateful. I'm nobody important with the organization, but I can get the information where it needs to go to insure that we consistently maintain the highest safety standards. (I won't be able to respond for several days from the time of this posting, give or take...not ignoring, just more or less offline.)

[luckyman]

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I hope day 2 did cool off for you. I can't speak about carbine shooting from the standpoint of the modern training organization, but if you have any questions about the 'whys' of Appleseed's approach you can certainly run them by me. Organizationally, we do not view contemporary rifle shooting developments as a devolution, but there are probably some individual instructors still out there with a bit of that mindset.

The safety side of Appleseed has always seemed to me to be extremely sound. If there were any gaps or slips that you'd be willing to pass on to me in a pm, I would be grateful. I'm nobody important with the organization, but I can get the information where it needs to go to insure that we consistently maintain the highest safety standards. (I won't be able to respond for several days from the time of this posting, give or take...not ignoring, just more or less offline.)

Day 2 was great also….! It started off with an unexpected heavy rain!

I should clarify my “WW2 state of the art” comments above….. I did / still do have the impression that all the techniques etc came out of WW2 era teaching, including sling use, elbow positioning, leg positioning in prone, etc.
On day 2 I asked about each of the differences I had noticed, which resulted in a lot of good discussions, and they had clear “why” rationale for everything. The elbow subject I think I now both sides of, the leg positioning during prone I like the Appleseed answer and wish I could ask Scotty about why his org does it differently.

Kind of separately from that from one of the instructors there was a bit of “marksmanship in the US military has gone downhill” and Appleseed has helped that when we have been given the chance vibe/comments. That sounds worse than it was because some of the comments were related to how in prior eras more recruits came in already knowing how to shoot.

I’ll pm you with the safety differences between Appleseed and the Scotty Reitz org when I get a chance later on; there were 4 main differences. I’ll reiterate that I felt quite safe this weekend and would not hesitate to recommend this to friends and family.