9mm Outdoor Load ?

[SamAdams]

Hello everyone - I've gone to 9mm Glocks for my carry guns. For the outdoors I've often used 44 and 45 revolvers or 165 GD 40 out of a G20 10mm with 40 conversion barrel. - - When outdoors, I might spend no more than 20% of the time in griz country. 80% of the time the biggest critters are black bears and mountain lions. No, I'm not really worried about them.
I've been thinking about lightening things up and using GD 147gr 9mm out of one of my G19s while in black bear/mountain lion country. What do you think of this for the application I've outlined ? Thanks

[JHC]

Some food for thought from Larry Mudgett's site. http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/handgun-ammunition-for-carrying-in-the-woods/

[GJM]

I don't think it much matters what you use for the cats, but I would want to be able to penetrate the brain for bears. My experience is that the Underwood load with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator bullet has fed in everything I have tried, on account of its FMJ like bullet profile.

[RJ]

Interesting thread.

I've been wondering about switching back to Speer GD 9mm 124 +p as a 'do it all' round for two or four legged critters.

[HCM]

Interesting thread.

I've been wondering about switching back to Speer GD 9mm 124 +p as a 'do it all' round for two or four legged critters.

Like Larry Mudgett in the article JHC linked, my number one concern is two legged critters. I'd call it good with +P Gold Dots or +P HST.

[GJM]

In my USP 45, I routinely carry at least one magazine loaded with .45 Super penetrator ammo, and another with Hornady Critical Duty JHP ammo. Pretty easy to switch out depending upon circumstances.

[SamAdams]

I don't think it much matters what you use for the cats, but I would want to be able to penetrate the brain for bears. My experience is that the Underwood load with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator bullet has fed in everything I have tried, on account of its FMJ like bullet profile.

Interesting. I've been staying away from boutique ammo, but have actually liked the Underwood 45 Colt and 44 Special ammo Ive tried. I'll have to take another look at their Penetrator semi-auto loads

[Salamander]

Some food for thought from Larry Mudgett's site. http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/handgun-ammunition-for-carrying-in-the-woods/

Interesting. Every black bear, cat, feral dog, etc. I've encountered thus far has quickly made itself scarce. On the other hand I have encountered a couple of raccoons with distemper right in the middle of the trail fairly near urban areas, and they had to be put down before someone else got hurt. Not kidding, in one case I helped local LE shoo away a well meaning lady who wanted to "put it in a box and take it to the vet." Once her and the young kid were away, he took the shot.

Here we are worried about the big stuff, and forgetting the pesky medium sized omnivores can be just as dangerous under certain circumstances.

I will differ on one thing; as a scientist and having personally handled hundreds of rattlesnakes/copperheads/cottonmouths/etc., I have yet to encounter a venomous snake in a wild setting that couldn't either be walked around, or flipped off the path with a long stick. Maybe different around a rural residence where pets or kids could encounter a snake if it's allowed to stay, but away from places like that... I've been baffled more than once by watching some otherwise tough customer completely lose his cool over a 36-inch snake. And at least half of what I've witnessed has been over a mis-identification of a harmless species.

[peterb]

Here we are worried about the big stuff, and forgetting the pesky medium sized omnivores can be just as dangerous under certain circumstances.

Our neighbor's new puppy was attacked -- not sprayed -- by a rabid skunk in their yard in daylight last year. The pup had to be put down.

Raccoons are damn vicious once they stop being cute, and we've had a couple of outbreaks of rabies in the fox population. Those worry me more than the local black bears.

[CCT125US]

San Mateo county California: Mountain lion snatches dog from foot of bed.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-mountain-lion-takes-dog-pescadero-20170417-story.html

[JHC]

In my USP 45, I routinely carry at least one magazine loaded with .45 Super penetrator ammo, and another with Hornady Critical Duty JHP ammo. Pretty easy to switch out depending upon circumstances.

Critical Duty in general across several calibers seems to be no slouch in the penetration after a barrier ie windshield tests.

[Doc_Glock]

I settled on the Buffalo Bore 147 grain Hardcast for wilderness use and 124 grain Ranger Ts the rest of the time. I have some reservations about the hardcast in a Glock and the price is astounding. Sometimes I wonder if simple 147grain FMJ wouldn't be nearly the same since shot placement is critical with a small caliber and large animal.

Most threats in my AO are rabid small mammals, dogs, humans, maybe lions and really rarely black bears, so I am best served by the Rangers and rarely carry the hardcast rounds.

[GJM]

I settled on the Buffalo Bore 147 grain Hardcast for wilderness use and 124 grain Ranger Ts the rest of the time. I have some reservations about the hardcast in a Glock and the price is astounding. Sometimes I wonder if simple 147grain FMJ wouldn't be nearly the same since shot placement is critical with a small caliber and large animal.

Most threats in my AO are rabid small mammals, dogs, humans, maybe lions and really rarely black bears, so I am best served by the Rangers and rarely carry the hardcast rounds.

This would be the time for Chuck Haggard to weigh in, but as I understand it, most FMJ loads are built for economy and not penetration through tough things like a bear's skull. I don't think it is settled science as to whether a hard cast load like the Buffalo Bore is compatible with a Glock OEM barrel. I would consider buying a box or two of the Underwood penetrator load with the Lehigh bullet, as they are a monolithic solid.

[SamAdams]

Interesting. Every black bear, cat, feral dog, etc. I've encountered thus far has quickly made itself scarce. On the other hand I have encountered a couple of raccoons with distemper right in the middle of the trail fairly near urban areas, and they had to be put down before someone else got hurt. Not kidding, in one case I helped local LE shoo away a well meaning lady who wanted to "put it in a box and take it to the vet." Once her and the young kid were away, he took the shot.

Here we are worried about the big stuff, and forgetting the pesky medium sized omnivores can be just as dangerous under certain circumstances.

I will differ on one thing; as a scientist and having personally handled hundreds of rattlesnakes/copperheads/cottonmouths/etc., I have yet to encounter a venomous snake in a wild setting that couldn't either be walked around, or flipped off the path with a long stick. Maybe different around a rural residence where pets or kids could encounter a snake if it's allowed to stay, but away from places like that... I've been baffled more than once by watching some otherwise tough customer completely lose his cool over a 36-inch snake. And at least half of what I've witnessed has been over a mis-identification of a harmless species.

While we were out scouting for the coming bow season, one of my buddies ran into a black bear momma with a cub. She held her ground. My friend just slowly backed out of there and she didn't bother him. Most of the black bears I've come across have run like Hell after realizing I was a human.

[GJM]

I have had similar experiences with brown bears -- most go the opposite direction. It is the ones that do not, that we need to be concerned with.

[okie john]

]I don't think it is settled science as to whether a hard cast load like the Buffalo Bore is compatible with a Glock OEM barrel. I would consider buying a box or two of the Underwood penetrator load with the Lehigh bullet, as they are a monolithic solid.

I've had mixed results with cast bullets in Glock OEM barrels. Some loads were more accurate than the best jacketed load I could find for a specific barrel. It's key to fit the bullet diameter to the individual barrel to avoid keyholing, even as close as 25 yards. Not sure what if any effect that would have at bear-defense distance, but I can't imagine that low levels of stability would do anything good for penetration.

Lehighs sound like a better idea.


Okie John

[SamAdams]

I have had similar experiences with brown bears -- most go the opposite direction. It is the ones that do not, that we need to be concerned with.

I was stalked by a black bear while bowhunting for deer. Once the wind shifted he caught my scent and ran off. I didn't know he had been stalking me till he ran off and I found his fresh tracks.

[BJXDS]

Hello everyone - I've gone to 9mm Glocks for my carry guns. For the outdoors I've often used 44 and 45 revolvers or 165 GD 40 out of a G20 10mm with 40 conversion barrel. - - When outdoors, I might spend no more than 20% of the time in griz country. 80% of the time the biggest critters are black bears and mountain lions. No, I'm not really worried about them.
I've been thinking about lightening things up and using GD 147gr 9mm out of one of my G19s while in black bear/mountain lion country. What do you think of this for the application I've outlined ? Thanks

Not to be a smart ass but in your scenario with the possible exception of an aggressive black bear you will probably be OK with your setup 80% of the time the other 20% in Grizzly country????

It's all about the stakes not the odds

[SamAdams]

Not to be a smart ass but in your scenario with the possible exception of an aggressive black bear you will probably be OK with your setup 80% of the time the other 20% in Grizzly country????

It's all about the stakes not the odds

I wouldnt go with the 9mm in griz country.

I use revolvers in 44 mag, 45 Colt, or 454 Casull out there.

Ive read with great interest in the past, GJM's experience with 45 Super & various penetrating bullets outta semi-autos up in Alaska. I haven't gone this route yet though. I may do so when in big bear country.

[GJM]

I wouldnt go with the 9mm in griz country.

I use revolvers in 44 mag, 45 Colt, or 454 Casull out there.

Hell, I wouldn't go with a 9mm as a back-up to my Benelli, loaded with Brenneke slugs, in griz country. :)

[SamAdams]

Hell, I wouldn't go with a 9mm as a back-up to my Benelli, loaded with Brenneke slugs, in griz country. :)
Hi GJM - I'll have to go back through the older posts. IIRC you had experimented with BB flat hard-cast and we're unhappy with feeding reliability. (I think this mighta been outta a G20 ?) But maybe the Penetrator bullet loads as loaded by Underwood are a good way to go now.

[GJM]

Hi GJM - I'll have to go back through the older posts. IIRC you had experimented with BB flat hard-cast and we're unhappy with feeding reliability. (I think this mighta been outta a G20 ?) But maybe the Penetrator bullet loads as loaded by Underwood are a good way to go now.


I will save you the trouble of looking.

A few years back, my wife and I tried Glock 22 pistols with KKM barrels and hard cast (can't remember whether BB or Underwood) and found them unreliable.

Tried 10mm hard cast (think Underwood) in a few 1066/1076 pistols with unacceptable reliability.

I believe SLG tried Super BB hard cast in a USP 45, with unsatisfactory reliability.

My USP FS 45 and HK45C (but not USP C) run BB 230 FMJ-FP Super loads reliably.

Everything I have tried Underwood penetrator loads with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator bullet (.40, .45 and Super) runs reliably. That is multiple Glock .40 pistols, USP FS and Compact .40, USP FS .45, HK45C.

[SamAdams]

Thanks GJM for the product research ! You likely just saved me a ton of time, hassle, & money :)

I'll get some of those Penetrator loads from Underwood. Will also have to look around for the bullets, if offered as a handloading component. (When dealing with an outsoorsmans load used in remote country, I don't see this to be of concern in the way day-to-day carry ammo might.)

[GJM]

Thanks GJM for the product research ! You likely just saved me a ton of time, hassle, & money :)

I'll get some of those Penetrator loads from Underwood. Will also have to look around for the bullets, if offered as a handloading component. (When dealing with an outsoorsmans load used in remote country, I don't see this to be of concern in the way day-to-day carry ammo might.)

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets

[SamAdams]

Thanks GJM !

[JHC]

Hell, I wouldn't go with a 9mm as a back-up to my Benelli, loaded with Brenneke slugs, in griz country. :)

If it's 9mm or one or the other of these, oh year. Fiocchi's pointy 124 gr FMJ. https://www.bearmageddonnews.com/2017/02/23/top-bear-sprays-compared-which-one-gets-you-killed-fastest/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=postplanner&utm_source=facebook.com

[Lester Polfus]

I lived a life of semi-voluntary simplicity for several years, and my Glock 19 was my "trail gun" along with my "everything else gun." I believe Doc had declared barrier blind duty ammo on "the list" as adequate for things like cougars and black bears. I didn't loose sleep when I carried Gold Dots in the woods in Oregon and Washington, but we've no grizzlies except in the far north of Washington, and then not in abundant numbers.

I did hedge my bets and buy some of Double Taps 147 brass FMJ-FP. Like GMJ mentioned, most FMJ ammo is made to just be cheap not penetrate, but in informal test I did on railroad ties, wood etc, they held together quite well and penetrated deeply. Unlike some other boutique ammo, I could afford to shoot enough of them to determine they were reliable.

Regarding the hard cast lead, wide meplat rounds in autoloaders, I've done some preliminary handload work with a G20, and I think what I'll probably arrive at is that you can do it, but you can't seat them out long enough to get really scorching velocities. That's still in the test and evaluation phase though. I haven't shot most of the commercial offerings (Buffalo Bore, Underwood, etc) in large quantities, and what I have shot hasn't impressed me in reliability and/or accuracy.

[Lester Polfus]

Also, while I'm sure a barrier blind JHP would do great in a broad side shot into the thorax of our (usually) 200 to 350 lb black bears around here, the one time I found myself contemplating shooting one because it was getting saucy (as opposed to sneaking up on one to shoot it and eat it) it was head on to me and on all fours. It wound up scampering off without getting shot, but after my little AAR of that incident, I realized that short of a shot to the brain pain, there were some pretty good sized bones, like the scapula and such in the way of the bullet getting into anything important, hence the 147 grain FMJ-FP

[SamAdams]

Also, while I'm sure a barrier blind JHP would do great in a broad side shot into the thorax of our (usually) 200 to 350 lb black bears around here, the one time I found myself contemplating shooting one because it was getting saucy (as opposed to sneaking up on one to shoot it and eat it) it was head on to me and on all fours. It wound up scampering off without getting shot, but after my little AAR of that incident, I realized that short of a shot to the brain pain, there were some pretty good sized bones, like the scapula and such in the way of the bullet getting into anything important, hence the 147 grain FMJ-FP

If you don't mind - would you mind saying what your guess is as to what caused the black bear to act so aggressively ? Mother with cub? Desensitized bear fed by people's leftovers in garbage cans ? Etc ?

[JustOneGun]

I lived a life of semi-voluntary simplicity for several years, and my Glock 19 was my "trail gun" along with my "everything else gun." I believe Doc had declared barrier blind duty ammo on "the list" as adequate for things like cougars and black bears. I didn't loose sleep when I carried Gold Dots in the woods in Oregon and Washington, but we've no grizzlies except in the far north of Washington, and then not in abundant numbers. I did hedge my bets and buy some of Double Taps 147 brass FMJ-FP. Like GMJ mentioned, most FMJ ammo is made to just be cheap not penetrate, but in informal test I did on railroad ties, wood etc, they held together quite well and penetrated deeply. Unlike some other boutique ammo, I could afford to shoot enough of them to determine they were reliable. Regarding the hard cast lead, wide meplat rounds in autoloaders, I've done some preliminary handload work with a G20, and I think what I'll probably arrive at is that you can do it, but you can't seat them out long enough to get really scorching velocities. That's still in the test and evaluation phase though. I haven't shot most of the commercial offerings (Buffalo Bore, Underwood, etc) in large quantities, and what I have shot hasn't impressed me in reliability and/or accuracy. Idaho has had Grizzlies as far south as Coeur D'Alene. After the fires up in the pan handle I wonder how many moved into eastern WA?

[GJM]

This is my handgun bear strategy for bears approaching me. If possible, shot one is in the dirt in front of the lead bear. That has worked for me twice, each time with a sow and two cubs. If possible, shot two is anywhere in the bear, since many bears do not like being shot. Shots three and more, are to the brain.

Here are some considerations. A substantial percentage of bears can be turned with a warning shot, but a not insignificant percentage begain a charge at the sound of a shot. You likely are only shooting when the bear is close, so you may not have the luxury of a warning or body shot. If you are capacity limited in your handgun, like with a five shot revolver, you may be unwilling to use a cartridge as a warning, especially if there are multiple bears. If you have a bolt gun, you may not be fast enough to shoot a warning shot and be ready to shoot again.

All things considered, with a handgun I would like to be loaded with a penetrating load, capable of poking a hole through the bear's skull, since that is the most reliable way of terminating a determined bear attack with a handgun. Rifles and shotguns give more options, if you have a caliber and load capable of putting a hurt on the bear with a body shot.

[RJ]

My bear strategy is to stand behind GJM and his wife. :cool:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

My bear strategy is to stand behind GJM and his wife. :cool:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Just stay close to Astro, as rule one with my wife is, nobody hurts the Vizsla.

[El Cid]

Thanks GJM for the product research ! You likely just saved me a ton of time, hassle, & money :)

I'll get some of those Penetrator loads from Underwood. Will also have to look around for the bullets, if offered as a handloading component. (When dealing with an outsoorsmans load used in remote country, I don't see this to be of concern in the way day-to-day carry ammo might.)

I've also had very good luck with the Underwood Extreme Penetrator ammo in 10mm using my G40. I'm still looking for a way to test the penetration of it and the Federal Trophy bonded JSP.

[SamAdams]

I've also had very good luck with the Underwood Extreme Penetrator ammo in 10mm using my G40. I'm still looking for a way to test the penetration of it and the Federal Trophy bonded JSP.

One reason I generally stay away from most boutique loads, is that they often run them too hot for marketing purposes /bragging rights. Velocities are too high for the bullet designs they're using. Of course, this shouldn't be a problem with a copper solid.

[El Cid]

One reason I generally stay away from most boutique loads, is that they often run them too hot for marketing purposes /bragging rights. Velocities are too high for the bullet designs they're using. Of course, this shouldn't be a problem with a copper solid.

Agreed. Interestingly the Federal JSP has more recoil than the Underwood load.

I started this project after seeing a YouTube video of a guy with a G40 and the underwood load shoot through some thick bulletproof glass. I'm very close to declaring my G40 good to go as my woods gun.

[butler coach]

This is my handgun bear strategy for bears approaching me. If possible, shot one is in the dirt in front of the lead bear. That has worked for me twice, each time with a sow and two cubs. If possible, shot two is anywhere in the bear, since many bears do not like being shot. Shots three and more, are to the brain.

Here are some considerations. A substantial percentage of bears can be turned with a warning shot, but a not insignificant percentage begain a charge at the sound of a shot. You likely are only shooting when the bear is close, so you may not have the luxury of a warning or body shot. If you are capacity limited in your handgun, like with a five shot revolver, you may be unwilling to use a cartridge as a warning, especially if there are multiple bears. If you have a bolt gun, you may not be fast enough to shoot a warning shot and be ready to shoot again.

All things considered, with a handgun I would like to be loaded with a penetrating load, capable of poking a hole through the bear's skull, since that is the most reliable way of terminating a determined bear attack with a handgun. Rifles and shotguns give more options, if you have a caliber and load capable of putting a hurt on the bear with a body shot.

shot 5 goes in your friends leg that way you don't have to be faster than the bear just your friend.

[Lester Polfus]

If you don't mind - would you mind saying what your guess is as to what caused the black bear to act so aggressively ? Mother with cub? Desensitized bear fed by people's leftovers in garbage cans ? Etc ?

Well, maybe "aggressive" isn't so much the right word as "young and stupid." I was hunting in the Oregon Coast Range and had a tent set up. I was storing my trash double bagged in the back of an SUV. One night before turning in, I took a quick trip into the woods about 50 yard from my tent and came back to see what I thought at first was a large dog at the tailgate of the SUV.

It was a young bear. He was sniffing at the corner of the closed tailgate of the SUV. When I lit him up with my flashlight he actually turned around and walked towards me a couple paces, probably more out of confusion from having a 100 lumen light shone in his eyes, than aggression truth be told. I yelled at him a couple times and finally he took off.

[Lester Polfus]

Idaho has had Grizzlies as far south as Coeur D'Alene. After the fires up in the pan handle I wonder how many moved into eastern WA?

That's a great question. I'm in South West WA and don't make it up there much. After the baby gets a little older we're definitely going to explore that area more. It's an open question whether I'll roll with some kind of hard cast load in the 10mm, or just finally go buy a 4" to 6" .44 mag.

[Lester Polfus]

One reason I generally stay away from most boutique loads, is that they often run them too hot for marketing purposes /bragging rights. Velocities are too high for the bullet designs they're using. Of course, this shouldn't be a problem with a copper solid.

This, in spades. I see all sorts of goofy shit in the 10mm world, like Gold Dots driven to velocities that are so far out of their design envelope they fail.

Also with hard cast, a 200 grain bullet going 1200 FPS isn't that big of an improvement over one going 1050, particularly if the gun chokes on it.

[JHC]

Well, maybe "aggressive" isn't so much the right word as "young and stupid." I was hunting in the Oregon Coast Range and had a tent set up. I was storing my trash double bagged in the back of an SUV. One night before turning in, I took a quick trip into the woods about 50 yard from my tent and came back to see what I thought at first was a large dog at the tailgate of the SUV.

It was a young bear. He was sniffing at the corner of the closed tailgate of the SUV. When I lit him up with my flashlight he actually turned around and walked towards me a couple paces, probably more out of confusion from having a 100 lumen light shone in his eyes, than aggression truth be told. I yelled at him a couple times and finally he took off.

In this case, perhaps just young and dumb.

But to the question of aggressive behaving blackies, I've read a good bit on how when brownies attack its generally territory and aggression and with black bears it's predation. Hence the curl up and play dead prescription to browns/griz and fight back vs black bear.

To wit, I've seen several accounts of black bear attempting predation where they weren't rolling in with a full on charge like brown bears but just calmly trailing the hiker/forestry worker etc to work in for the easy meal. The authors didn't describe an "aggressive" acting black bear, just one calmly trailing him or paralleling him on the trail for extended time.

[Lester Polfus]

shot 5 goes in your friends leg that way you don't have to be faster than the bear just your friend.

/bearthread

[Lester Polfus]

In this case, perhaps just young and dumb.

But to the question of aggressive behaving blackies, I've read a good bit on how when brownies attack its generally territory and aggression and with black bears it's predation. Hence the curl up and play dead prescription to browns/griz and fight back vs black bear.

To wit, I've seen several accounts of black bear attempting predation where they weren't rolling in with a full on charge like brown bears but just calmly trailing the hiker/forestry worker etc to work in for the easy meal. The authors didn't describe an "aggressive" acting black bear, just one calmly trailing him or paralleling him on the trail for extended time.

Yes. That's what I remember from Herrero's Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/158574557X?_encoding=UTF8&deviceType=desktop&isInIframe=0&n=283155&ref_=dp_proddesc_0&s=books&showDetailProductDesc=1#product-description_feature_div) That book is considered the go to reference for this sort of thing.

In addition to dominance/territorial defending and predation, the third broad category is when a human and a bear have a close range "meeting engagement" where both parties are surprised and the bear perceives a need for self defense. The classic setup for this is approaching the bear from downwind, in heavy cover, often near running water or some similar source of noise.

We live adjacent to the national forest here, where there are plentiful huckleberry patches that go from waist to shoulder high. When out hiking, I'll often clap my hands or make some other noise before we traverse one of those. Twice I've had something big enough to be either a bear or a deer haul ass out of the patch without being seen. On one of those occasions, I found the bear's tracks, and two giant butt prints right by the stripped huckleberry bushes. On one occasion I had a bear lift it's head up out of the huckleberry's and look at me like "What? I'm eating here." I just took another route that day.

I'm pretty cautious creeping through those patches during the September archery season when the bears are gorging on berries.

I like bears. I like them in the wild, out doing their bear thing, and I like them in my freezer and as a nice rug. What I'm trying very hard to avoid is a DLP shooting of a bear where I have to fuss with WDFW, who will most likely wind up wasting the bear, as I wouldn't be able to keep the meat or hide then.

[SamAdams]

That's a great question. I'm in South West WA and don't make it up there much. After the baby gets a little older we're definitely going to explore that area more. It's an open question whether I'll roll with some kind of hard cast load in the 10mm, or just finally go buy a 4" to 6" .44 mag.

They're up in the far NE corner of WA. Saw a photo of one last year in an area where I've done a lot of flyfishing. (Very close to the Canadian border.) But, I imagine the greatest threat would be from game officers if a guy ever shot one without adequate justification. There are many more in Montana, parts of Idaho, and Alaska of course. Also in British Columbia.

[JHC]

This is my handgun bear strategy for bears approaching me. If possible, shot one is in the dirt in front of the lead bear. That has worked for me twice, each time with a sow and two cubs. If possible, shot two is anywhere in the bear, since many bears do not like being shot. Shots three and more, are to the brain.

Here are some considerations. A substantial percentage of bears can be turned with a warning shot, but a not insignificant percentage begain a charge at the sound of a shot. You likely are only shooting when the bear is close, so you may not have the luxury of a warning or body shot. If you are capacity limited in your handgun, like with a five shot revolver, you may be unwilling to use a cartridge as a warning, especially if there are multiple bears. If you have a bolt gun, you may not be fast enough to shoot a warning shot and be ready to shoot again.

All things considered, with a handgun I would like to be loaded with a penetrating load, capable of poking a hole through the bear's skull, since that is the most reliable way of terminating a determined bear attack with a handgun. Rifles and shotguns give more options, if you have a caliber and load capable of putting a hurt on the bear with a body shot.

AFAIK this is the best handgun strategy going. I've heard of a single body shot from a magnum revolver dropping a big bear but I've heard of more that required multiple shots that at some point busted the brain pan.

It's a close range "life comes at ya fast" thing. When I drilled multiple shots to a 4x6 at 7 and ten yards before visiting AK in 2016, the difference in putting multiple hits on the card very quickly with a 4" Model 629 and various service pistols was dramatic. Like a 3 to 1 advantage to the service auto (9mm/.357Sig/.40/.45). I would (and did) opt for a deep penetrating .40 loading over the .44. I would not play for all the marbles on one shot inside 10 yards.

[Lester Polfus]

AFAIK this is the best handgun strategy going. I've heard of a single body shot from a magnum revolver dropping a big bear but I've heard of more that required multiple shots that at some point busted the brain pan.

It's a close range "life comes at ya fast" thing. When I drilled multiple shots to a 4x6 at 7 and ten yards before visiting AK in 2016, the difference in putting multiple hits on the card very quickly with a 4" Model 629 and various service pistols was dramatic. Like a 3 to 1 advantage to the service auto (9mm/.357Sig/.40/.45). I would (and did) opt for a deep penetrating .40 loading over the .44. I would not play for all the marbles on one shot inside 10 yards.

Ayuh. That's why I kind of look askance at both the single action revolver in any caliber, and the double action revolver in things like .454 and .460 etc in this role. I guess if that first shot does the trick, it's all well and good, but otherwise your shit sandwich just got alot bigger.

[richiecotite]

might be dumb question, but if most agree a hardcast flat point works (relatively) well against critters, would a hardcast coated bullet work as well?

Also, what's the general consensus on how hard a bullet has to be to be considered hard cast? BHN of 18 or higher? 15? Anything lead bullet that's cast instead of swaged?

[txhorns]

I believe this round has been mentioned but has anyone found it to be reliable or unreliable in their own pistols? https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

I've been wanting to order some for reliability testing but haven't found the time yet.

[Clusterfrack]

Very interesting discussion. I've never had to shoot a bear. A warning shot did the trick during my one serious encounter. For me it boils down to:

6 rounds of .44 Mag 340gr at 1360fps

--vs--

13 to 18 rounds of 147gr or 180gr in 9mm or 40 at around 1050fps.

Not sure which I'll end up packing.

[JHC]

Very interesting discussion. I've never had to shoot a bear. A warning shot did the trick during my one serious encounter. For me it boils down to:

6 rounds of .44 Mag 340gr at 1360fps

--vs--

13 to 18 rounds of 147gr or 180gr in 9mm or 40 at around 1050fps.

Not sure which I'll end up packing.

Put them on a low prob target and a timer! :D

[JHC]

On aspect GJM didn't include in his handgun defense post but which he's mentioned before is his consideration that he shoots X ginormous volume with a semiauto pistol all the time with all assorted gunhandling details. And relatively few with a wheelie, much less a magnum wheelie. In a fast breaking "life comes at ya fast, but not THIS FAST!" life or death fight, it made sense to him to be using all the unconscious competence with the handgun he had at his disposal.

[GJM]

I believe this round has been mentioned but has anyone found it to be reliable or unreliable in their own pistols? https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

I've been wanting to order some for reliability testing but haven't found the time yet.

I shot a box recently in PC4C and it functioned for all 20 rounds. Accuracy only half as good as I see with jacketed ammo.

[FPS]

What would be the pros and cons of loading your own 9mm +p with some of the hard cast options out there? I see Badman Bullets has some coated hard cast that would reliably load without issues. Not a WFN but I am wondering how much it matters with a penetrating round.

Much cheaper and able to do extensive reliability testing.

[Clusterfrack]

Put them on a low prob target and a timer! :D

On a 10" plate at 10 yds, I've got a 1.5 to 2s draw, and ~1s splits with the Super Blackhawk Bisley 3.75".

Definitely not M class times... but not too bad?

[Lester Polfus]

What would be the pros and cons of loading your own 9mm +p with some of the hard cast options out there? I see Badman Bullets has some coated hard cast that would reliably load without issues. Not a WFN but I am wondering how much it matters with a penetrating round.

Much cheaper and able to do extensive reliability testing.

I believe the bullet for that Buffalo Bore load is made by Rimrock Bullets, and is available as a component. The pros would be that you could duplicate the load, and do enough testing to confirm that it actually works in the gun, without spending over a $1 per bang.

The cons would depend on your skills at hand loading ammo.

[GJM]

On a 10" plate at 10 yds, I've got a 1.5 to 2s draw, and ~1s splits with the Super Blackhawk Bisley 3.75".

Definitely not M class times... but not too bad?

That level of performance is about what I would expect with the heavy revolver, and represents the crux of dilemma between the more powerful/slower shooting revolver compared to the less powerful/faster shooting semi-auto.

[El Cid]

That level of performance is about what I would expect with the heavy revolver, and represents the crux of dilemma between the more powerful/slower shooting revolver compared to the less powerful/faster shooting semi-auto.

Which is why I'm still on the Glock 40 train. :)

[walker2713]

Compliments of Ace:


15820

[Lester Polfus]

Compliments of Ace:


15820

Now that we've had that referenced twice, should I just go ahead and talk about why we should take the sights off a pistol carried in bear country, just so we can get it over with and move on?

[Clusterfrack]

Are there any data available on lethal force encounters with bears? Wins/Losses? Caliber? Number of shots fired?

[SamAdams]

Lester Polfus - " I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream."

In black bear country I've carried a G20 with 40 conversion barrel and good on 'The List" 40 ammo. Since black bears in that area likely run no heavier than some patrons of MickieDs, I think I'm o.k.

IMO the G20 can be a terrific 40 S&W launcher.


BTW - I posted the OP in search of opinions as to 9mm loads that might fill the G20 with 40 role for me.
(Hmmmm . . am I getting overly lazy seeking to shed a few ounces carried outdoors? Maybe.)

[Lester Polfus]

Lester Polfus - " I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream."

In black bear country I've carried a G20 with 40 conversion barrel and good on 'The List" 40 ammo. Since black bears in that area likely run no heavier than some patrons of MickieDs, I think I'm o.k.

IMO the G20 can be a terrific 40 S&W launcher.


BTW - I posted the OP in search of opinions as to 9mm loads that might fill the G20 with 40 role for me.
(Hmmmm . . am I getting overly lazy seeking to shed a few ounces carried outdoors? Maybe.)

I've often contended that the 2nd and 3rd gen .40 S&W Glocks should have been built on the 10mm/.45 frame. Shooting .40 out of the Glock 20 feels alot like cheating as that big slide and frame really seem to reduce the recoil.

My solution is to carry middling hot 10mm loads out here in the boonies. 200 Grain XTP's at 1140 FPS is my load. It's nicely controllable and gives a little "more." I wouldn't feel handicapped by a .40 load on "the list."

As far as the "overly lazy" part, I'm only 45 but I've got some nice arthritis in both knees, and some pretty good bursitis in a hip, so I'm constantly lookign to shed weight, both around my middle, and in my gear. The G20 is a bit heavier than the G19, but no where near as heavy as a 4" N Frame or Redhawk, so I find it a nice middle ground. Like I said though, I wouldn't criticize the choice of a G19 with a good load as a field pistol, having done it myself.

[SamAdams]

. . . As far as the "overly lazy" part, I'm only 45 but I've got some nice arthritis in both knees, and some pretty good bursitis in a hip, so I'm constantly lookign to shed weight, both around my middle, and in my gear. The G20 is a bit heavier than the G19, but no where near as heavy as a 4" N Frame or Redhawk, so I find it a nice middle ground. Like I said though, I wouldn't criticize the choice of a G19 with a good load as a field pistol, having done it myself.

Interesting you should say that. I experienced a serious foot and ankle injury a few years ago. For quite some while, the only firearm I could carry for any length of time without experiencing pain, was an Airweight J-frame. So, sometimes a few ounces can make quite a difference. Thankfully I recovered from the injury, but it took awhile. Regards, -

[JHC]

Lester Polfus - " I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream."

In black bear country I've carried a G20 with 40 conversion barrel and good on 'The List" 40 ammo. Since black bears in that area likely run no heavier than some patrons of MickieDs, I think I'm o.k.

IMO the G20 can be a terrific 40 S&W launcher.


BTW - I posted the OP in search of opinions as to 9mm loads that might fill the G20 with 40 role for me.
(Hmmmm . . am I getting overly lazy seeking to shed a few ounces carried outdoors? Maybe.)

Bottom line is up to black bear level I wouldn't give a 2nd thought carrying a 9mm with 124 +P or 147 Gold Dots or 135 +P Critical Duty anyway. Same for a .40 with pretty much anything on "the list" plus XTPs and the .40 Critical Duty load.

The 9mm Buffalo Bore I've paid dearly for was the least accurate centerfire pistol ammo I've ever shot.

I did carry Hornady 180 gr XTP .40 when I did a little bit of hiking in AK and for my all around carry while there. My chief concern was situational awareness vs ammo. There were aggressive derelicts in Anchorage and the wild woods with moose and bear. :D

[flyrodr]

Are there any data available on lethal force encounters with bears? Wins/Losses? Caliber? Number of shots fired?

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/326124/efficacy-of-firearms-for-bear-deterrence-in-alaska.pdf

Make of it what you will . . .

[GJM]

Speaking with Hornady, their tech guy said that Critical Duty would way out penetrate the XTP bullet.

[JHC]

Speaking with Hornady, their tech guy said that Critical Duty would way out penetrate the XTP bullet.
Duly noted going forward. My .40 and .45 reload mags are CD. I like that product line.

[FPS]

Speaking with Hornady, their tech guy said that Critical Duty would way out penetrate the XTP bullet.

FWIW, here is a test of Hornady Critical Duty 9mm vs regular ball ammo shot through a steel plate into clear ballistics gel. I understand the limits of clear ballistics gel and it not being the best but what was interesting to me was the comparison of the two rounds through the same medium (steel plate + clear gel) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3XNWU8xaxk

Not sure if that test is a valid data point or not for our discussion but there it is.

[Clusterfrack]

You assholes ;-). Look what you made me do

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/faa03a6e1f20776091e4a27ad1334a8a.jpg

[Drang]

Now that we've had that referenced twice, should I just go ahead and talk about why we should take the sights off a pistol carried in bear country, just so we can get it over with and move on?

"...and brown bear turds have Beretta Jetfires in them."

[Lester Polfus]

You assholes ;-). Look what you made me do

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/faa03a6e1f20776091e4a27ad1334a8a.jpg

Oh my.

Please do share your results.

[Clusterfrack]

Oh my.

Please do share your results.

Will do. I've been meaning to work up a 10mm bearkiller load. Here's what I've done so far.

10mm 180 gr XTP
10.0 gr 800X
Av=1290 fps, sd 7.7.
1.260” COL
This load feeds well in a G4 G20 with a 24# ISMI spring on a Glockmeister rod.

This is what I'm working up now:
10mm 200 gr Beartooth lead hard cast gas check 1.260” COL
7.5, 8, 8.5, 9.0 gr 800-X. Hoping for 1250 fps without pressure signs.

[GJM]

Will do. I've been meaning to work up a 10mm bearkiller load. Here's what I've done so far.

10mm 180 gr XTP
10.0 gr 800X
Av=1290 fps, sd 7.7.
1.260” COL
This load feeds well in a G4 G20 with a 24# ISMI spring on a Glockmeister rod.

This is what I'm working up now:
10mm 200 gr Beartooth lead hard cast gas check 1.260” COL
7.5, 8, 8.5, 9.0 gr 800-X. Hoping for 1250 fps without pressure signs.

I will be interested in your reliability testing results. The XTP bullet feeds in every G20 and 29 we have, and that is a pile of them we accumulated in 15 years of Alaska living. I have yet to make a wide meplat hard cast load feed, to my standards, in any 20/29.

[JHC]

I will be interested in your reliability testing results. The XTP bullet feeds in every G20 and 29 we have, and that is a pile of them we accumulated in 15 years of Alaska living. I have yet to make a wide meplat hard cast load feed, to my standards, in any 20/29.

Have you messed around with Delta Elites or other 1911 pattern guns and these sorts of bullets?

[GJM]

Have you messed around with Delta Elites or other 1911 pattern guns and these sorts of bullets?

I have a Delta customized by JoJo's, that has fed everything I have shot in it, but the 1911 doesn't work well for my AK use.

[JHC]

I have a Delta customized by JoJo's, that has fed everything I have shot in it, but the 1911 doesn't work well for my AK use.

Roger that. I wasn't thinking about your AK use case so much as getting the datapoint in general. Good to know.

[GJM]

I was pretty much a 1911 exclusive guy, when arriving in AK in 2002, but the first winter fixed that, and moved me to a USP Compact LEM .45. Wish I figured out the USP FS 45 and Super thing then, as it would have saved me a lot of trouble.

[SamAdams]

I was pretty much a 1911 exclusive guy, when arriving in AK in 2002, but the first winter fixed that, and moved me to a USP Compact LEM .45. Wish I figured out the USP FS 45 and Super thing then, as it would have saved me a lot of trouble.

But we need you to do the research for us ! Saves tons of time, money, & hassle :)

But seriously, your posts on these subjects is greatly appreciated. I figure if it works for you up in Alaska, it'll likely work for me during those times when I venture into griz country. Best regards, -

P.S. - I do have a 45 Super set-up for a 1911. But, I'm not going to bother fooling with it. Reliability & durability will likely be no better than shooting range acceptable. I just don't have the time to find out.

[GJM]

My issues with the 1911 were:

Trigger guard too small for winter gloves.
My inability to work the thumb safety and short trigger with cold soaked hands.
Relatively high weight for relatively low capacity.
My discomfort with the thumb safety getting wiped off in certain kinds of holsters (combined with a pinned grip safety).
Hammer back exposing the pistol to fod when wading streams and marshy areas.

[FPS]

If one was to go the load your own route, how much effectiveness would you lose with a non wfn hardcast bullet that feeds more reliably in semi autos? Which hardcast bullet types might be good options for penetration and reliable feeding?

[GJM]

Bears and mountain bikes a bad mix.

https://www.adn.com/outdoors-adventure/2017/04/23/when-bikers-collide-with-bears/

[Doc_Glock]

Bears and mountain bikes a bad mix.

https://www.adn.com/outdoors-adventure/2017/04/23/when-bikers-collide-with-bears/

That article was awesome. Thank you.

[Doc_Glock]

Can someone explain to my why hardcast is mo' better than FMJ? Does it have to do with penetration, or does hardcast slightly deform and increase the wound channel? Inquiring minds. I would think equal weight bullets would penetrate equally.

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack's 10mm Bearkiller load (use at your own risk; work up load carefully in each gun!)

Results from chrono today:

Test gun: Gen4 Glock 20, 24# ISMI recoil spring, Glockmeister guiderod (http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Spring-Assembly-for-Gen-4-20-21-40-41/productinfo/G4SS20CS/)

Bullet: 200 gr Beartooth lead hard cast gas check (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/display.php?catagory=6)
COL: 1.260”
Primer: CCI #300 (non-magnum)
Brass: Starline (virgin brass)
Powder: IMR 800-X (metered in RCBS Chargemaster)
7.5gr 1088 fps
8.0gr 1120 (n = 2)
8.5gr 1183 (n = 3)
9.0gr 1239 (n = 3)

NOTES: Recoil was mild for the 7.5 grain load (at least for a 10mm). 8.0 and 8.5 gr recoil was noticeably stronger. At 9.0 grains, recoil was VERY heavy but controllable. Smoke was surprisingly low, and I didn't notice a big muzzle flash. All brass had mild bulging, dinged rim, and ejection dent. 8.5 and 9.0gr loads had flattened primers and heavier striker channel marks. There was no asymmetrical bulging, or other signs of dangerous pressures. I will not reuse brass from these heavy loads.

There were no malfunctions, and I shot some strings of 3 shots with ~0.5s splits.

I'll be loading up a batch of the 9.0 gr Bearkillers for reliability testing and report back in a week or two--probably in a new thread. I'm optimistic enough to be ordering a JMCK AIWB WC 2.5 for the G20...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/faa03a6e1f20776091e4a27ad1334a8a.jpg



Will do. I've been meaning to work up a 10mm bearkiller load. Here's what I've done so far.

10mm 180 gr XTP
10.0 gr 800X
Av=1290 fps, sd 7.7.
1.260” COL
This load feeds well in a G4 G20 with a 24# ISMI spring on a Glockmeister rod.

This is what I'm working up now:
10mm 200 gr Beartooth lead hard cast gas check 1.260” COL
7.5, 8, 8.5, 9.0 gr 800-X. Hoping for 1250 fps without pressure signs.

[Duelist]

Can someone explain to my why hardcast is mo' better than FMJ? Does it have to do with penetration, or does hardcast slightly deform and increase the wound channel? Inquiring minds. I would think equal weight bullets would penetrate equally.

It's not just that it's hardcast - it's the wide, flat meplat with sharp shoulders, combined with a higher BNH that resists deforming, that causes the wounds the proponents talk about. A regular FMJ is shaped like a torpedo and slips through wet material, causing a relatively narrow wound track. This is the reason most of us carry JHP in our pistols - to widen the wound track, as well as controlling penetration. The wide, sharp shoulders of the WFN tend to cause a wider, more tearing wound. Check out the forums at Beartooth Bullets for more info.

[Clusterfrack]

Bears and mountain bikes a bad mix.

https://www.adn.com/outdoors-adventure/2017/04/23/when-bikers-collide-with-bears/

Yup. I almost hit a mom bear with a cub while riding single track at 30+mph.

[GJM]

It's not just that it's hardcast - it's the wide, flat meplat with sharp shoulders, combined with a higher BNH that resists deforming, that causes the wounds the proponents talk about. A regular FMJ is shaped like a torpedo and slips through wet material, causing a relatively narrow wound track. This is the reason most of us carry JHP in our pistols - to widen the wound track, as well as controlling penetration. The wide, sharp shoulders of the WFN tend to cause a wider, more tearing wound. Check out the forums at Beartooth Bullets for more info.

That is my understanding as well. The question is, if our goal is to be able to penetrate the skull of a bear, and thereby reach the brain, do we care about the benefits of hard cast over, say, the monolithic style Lehigh penetrator bullet? I see the benefit of hard cast for hunting, but personally value the reliability of FMJ for defensive use against large animals.

[Clusterfrack]

Is it unrealistic to want a load that can yield potentially lethal body hits if a head shot misses? That's why I was initially planning on packing the .44 SBH with the BB 340gr lead hard cast.


That is my understanding as well. The question is, if our goal is to be able to penetrate the skull of a bear, and thereby reach the brain, do we care about the benefits of hard cast over, say, the monolithic style Lehigh penetrator bullet? I see the benefit of hard cast for hunting, but personally value the reliability of FMJ for defensive use against large animals.

[GJM]

Is it unrealistic to want a load that can yield potentially lethal body hits if a head shot misses? That's why I was initially planning on packing the .44 SBH with the BB 340gr lead hard cast.

Not unrealistic at all, and the reason I try my best to have a 14 inch Benelli stuffed full of Brenneke slugs in my hands whenever possible. It a guy will faithfully carry a heavy revolver all day, every day, and not be concerned about being less capable on possibly numerous thin skinned targets, the heavy wheel gun is an excellent choice. Two observations, though. Commonly I see guys with their .500, visiting Alaska. They have the .500 on morning one, and by that afternoon they are no longer carrying it at all, which is obviously not ideal. The second point, is while the SA revolver is great for hunting, I think it gives up a lot in a hand to hand fight with a bear, that may be clamped on your arm.

There is no perfect solution, you just have to go with what seems right to you. i went semi-auto HK because I frequently transition in and out of town, in and out of aircraft, and AIWB allows me to carry a FS USP in all those settings. It also capitalizes on my semi-auto training reps, and is the most reliable semi-auto pistol I have found to launch a credible power projectile. Before the semi-auto, I was S&W 629, then Smith mountain gun, then Smith 329.

[BillSWPA]

I've often contended that the 2nd and 3rd gen .40 S&W Glocks should have been built on the 10mm/.45 frame. Shooting .40 out of the Glock 20 feels alot like cheating as that big slide and frame really seem to reduce the recoil.

My solution is to carry middling hot 10mm loads out here in the boonies. 200 Grain XTP's at 1140 FPS is my load. It's nicely controllable and gives a little "more." I wouldn't feel handicapped by a .40 load on "the list."

As far as the "overly lazy" part, I'm only 45 but I've got some nice arthritis in both knees, and some pretty good bursitis in a hip, so I'm constantly lookign to shed weight, both around my middle, and in my gear. The G20 is a bit heavier than the G19, but no where near as heavy as a 4" N Frame or Redhawk, so I find it a nice middle ground. Like I said though, I wouldn't criticize the choice of a G19 with a good load as a field pistol, having done it myself.

Thread drift: I noticed the comment about arthritis in the knees, and have that as well.

If you are prescribed orthotics, make sure that whoever prescribes them looked at your feet first. Since it is usually the part of the knee closest to your centerline that wears out first, lateral wedges in your shoes are a common prescription. However, I have come to believe that it is the part of your foot right behind the toes, not the heel, that is most important for properly supporting the knee. In my case, the lateral wedges only aggravated a collapsing arch. A completely different orthotic with extra material in the arch caused significant pain reduction.

Physical therapy is also well worth considering. In my case, years of running and weightlifting had resulted in strong glutes and quads, but weak abductors. Strengthening the abductors, combined with stretching, resulted in huge reductions in knee pain. The combination of the better orthotics and physical therapy has enabled me to get back to running.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lester Polfus]

Thread drift: I noticed the comment about arthritis in the knees, and have that as well.

If you are prescribed orthotics, make sure that whoever prescribes them looked at your feet first. Since it is usually the part of the knee closest to your centerline that wears out first, lateral wedges in your shoes are a common prescription. However, I have come to believe that it is the part of your foot right behind the toes, not the heel, that is most important for properly supporting the knee. In my case, the lateral wedges only aggravated a collapsing arch. A completely different orthotic with extra material in the arch caused significant pain reduction.

Physical therapy is also well worth considering. In my case, years of running and weightlifting had resulted in strong glutes and quads, but weak abductors. Strengthening the abductors, combined with stretching, resulted in huge reductions in knee pain. The combination of the better orthotics and physical therapy has enabled me to get back to running.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely, my PT looks like Eddie Vedder's little brother, but I'd adopt him in a heart beat. He's done me a bunch of good. The origins of my OA are probably from an altered gait caused by some lower extremity injuiries, so I'm working on that. I've not tried orthotics. In fact I went the opposite direction. I go barefoot as much as possible, which is pretty often as I mostly work from home, and where minimalist shoes otherwise as much as I can.

[Chuck Haggard]

I found this incident rather interesting... successful defense against a grizzly with a S&W 3953 loaded with Buffalo Bore....

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Personally, my biggest hink with the boutique makers is QC, seen a lot of very "cool" ammo that didn't run the gun well, or had other QC issues. I note that Speer Lawman has a rather high QC, is available cheap so you can shoot a lot of it, and Larry Mudgett has the Lawman 147gr FMJFP (which is "bonded" BTW...) on his recommended list.

Ref brain shots; methinks RN FMJ is a bad idea for the same reasons Jim Cirillo and the other Stake-out Squad members found it a problem when dealing with armed robbers. I'll note that while FMJRN 9mm penetrates quite a bit on body shots, it tends to do far less so than FMJFP due to the RN bullets tending to yaw.

[Doc_Glock]

I found this incident rather interesting... successful defense against a grizzly with a S&W 3953 loaded with Buffalo Bore....

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Personally, my biggest hink with the boutique makers is QC, seen a lot of very "cool" ammo that didn't run the gun well, or had other QC issues. I note that Speer Lawman has a rather high QC, is available cheap so you can shoot a lot of it, and Larry Mudgett has the Lawman 147gr FMJFP (which is "bonded" BTW...) on his recommended list.

Ref brain shots; methinks RN FMJ is a bad idea for the same reasons Jim Cirillo and the other Stake-out Squad members found it a problem when dealing with armed robbers. I'll note that while FMJRN 9mm penetrates quite a bit on body shots, it tends to do far less so than FMJFP due to the RN bullets tending to yaw.

I think the issue with FMJ is deflection of bone especially skull where the hardcast FP will grab and penetrate.

I share your concerns about boutique ammo. Do you know anything about American Eagle FMJFN 147, as I have a good supply and it is reliable.

http://cdn5.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/420x420/89186606949bbcd1c9e3309e80a0d7d0/a/e/ae9fp-3_1.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

I think the issue with FMJ is deflection of bone especially skull where the hardcast FP will grab and penetrate.

I share your concerns about boutique ammo. Do you know anything about American Eagle FMJFN 147, as I have a good supply and it is reliable.

http://cdn5.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/420x420/89186606949bbcd1c9e3309e80a0d7d0/a/e/ae9fp-3_1.jpg

It's good ammo, accurate, should penetrate well in soft tissue. If the bullets are anything like the 124gr FMJ loads then they are rather hard, but that would take a guy shooting them into stuff to find out. We often used the AE 124gr ball at work, and it would quickly shoot the shit out of bowling pins, penetrated car doors really well, etc.

[Lester Polfus]

I think the issue with FMJ is deflection of bone especially skull where the hardcast FP will grab and penetrate.

I share your concerns about boutique ammo. Do you know anything about American Eagle FMJFN 147, as I have a good supply and it is reliable.

http://cdn5.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/420x420/89186606949bbcd1c9e3309e80a0d7d0/a/e/ae9fp-3_1.jpg

Thanks for that. I was hitherto unaware of that load.

[FPS]

I hear a lot about how tough theoretically bear skulls are but do we have any evidence that they are as tough as people seem to imply?

[GJM]

$209/1,000 at SGAmmo.com

[JHC]

I hear a lot about how tough theoretically bear skulls are but do we have any evidence that they are as tough as people seem to imply?

IMO it's mostly anecdotal re glancing blows that don't get it done. Years ago I read (and cannot find it after looking repeatedly) on line of AK Troopers testing service pistols on preserved brown bear heads the DNR saved up for them. All the service pistol calibers penetrated the brain if struck through the mouth or snout and all and even .44 magnums failed if hit glancing on the skull.

[Doc_Glock]

$209/1,000 at SGAmmo.com

Shhhh.

[Chuck Haggard]

It's the angle more than the thickness of the skull.

[Doc_Glock]

$209/1,000 at SGAmmo.com

In all seriousness I am considering this for my 9mm outdoor load.

[GJM]

In all seriousness I am considering this for my 9mm outdoor load.

Can you describe what you mean by an "outdoor load?"

[Doc_Glock]

Can you describe what you mean by an "outdoor load?"

Black Bear defense. I just re read the Mudgett article posted in the second or third post and he liked the Speer. I don't see an appreciable difference to the AE but maybe the A E is loaded lighter.

[PNWTO]

Black Bear defense. I just re read the Mudgett article posted in the second or third post and he liked the Speer. I don't see an appreciable difference to the AE but maybe the A E is loaded lighter.

FWIW in my AO the only four-legged assholes I'm worried about are black bears and cougars and have decided that my EDC load of Hornady CD 135gr +P in my G19 will more than suffice. Especially after talking to a Hornady rep a few years back and hearing about how wonderful the penetration of that line is. There is a G29 in my future but that is a different topic (wounded big game, livestock, etc etc).

My $.02 but I would say whatever your EDC load is is probably okay for your stated concern.

[Chuck Haggard]

15" or so of penetration isn't shallow, but isn't really deep either. Should work for smaller black bear or big cats....

Scroll down and click the "gelatins" button;

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/135-gr-9mm-lugerp

[Doc_Glock]

Just for posterity I took some photos comparing the BB 147 +P hardcast to AE 147 FMJFP.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/46efebec5e5cf0c3a6d8ac7e0dda1535.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/23fc7bce86103f601ec0490b0cee0d3d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/7851fa9b2381f57b1d72c3cc925a6ae9.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

With Doc's testing showing a bit more penetration;

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7205-New-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Tests&highlight=critical+duty

[ldunnmobile]

The Hornady 135 gr +P Critical Duty is what I'm using as woods ammo right now and we have a lot of black bear but I am more concerned about a pack of hogs. Has anyone done any serious testing with the Lehigh Penetrator?

[GJM]

The Hornady 135 gr +P Critical Duty is what I'm using as woods ammo right now and we have a lot of black bear but I am more concerned about a pack of hogs. Has anyone done any serious testing with the Lehigh Penetrator?

I have only done reliability testing with the Lehigh penetrator bullets, and they function in a range of pistols I have tried them in, in various calibers. Bill Wilson also reports the Barnes X bullet drop hogs dead out of his Beretta 9mm pistols.

[JHC]

With Doc's testing showing a bit more penetration;

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7205-New-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Tests&highlight=critical+duty

And it's tested about that deep after windshield glass which is a "who knows?" facsimile of a hard skull.

[JHC]

The Hornady 135 gr +P Critical Duty is what I'm using as woods ammo right now and we have a lot of black bear but I am more concerned about a pack of hogs. Has anyone done any serious testing with the Lehigh Penetrator?

MAC has a video on his channel where he gel tests the Lehigh bullet in 9mm but then shoots a feral hog that had already been killed and was propped up. He shot it broadside, he said through the shoulders but I thought the entrance seemed a big far back for that but in any case he did not get an exit from it. And that hog was not 20+ inches across.

Edit: Here it is. It was a test of the 90 grain 1500 fps load, not the Penetrator. It still did 20" in calibrated gel but not so much on the hog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ&t=873s

[SamAdams]

IMO it's mostly anecdotal re glancing blows that don't get it done. Years ago I read (and cannot find it after looking repeatedly) on line of AK Troopers testing service pistols on preserved brown bear heads the DNR saved up for them. All the service pistol calibers penetrated the brain if struck through the mouth or snout and all and even .44 magnums failed if hit glancing on the skull.

So now we gotta hit an angry bear who's running full out at us, with murder on his mind, in the snout ?

Damned :p

[JHC]

So now we gotta hit an angry bear who's running full out at us, with murder on his mind, in the snout ?

Damned :p

Pretty much. IIRC GJM has reported that when he took a bear defense course at Gunsite they used a 3x5 card as the target!

[GJM]

Pretty much. IIRC GJM has reported that when he took a bear defense course at Gunsite they used a 3x5 card as the target!

Actually, they had these neat paper targets of a brown bear, and the upper CNS was depicted as a circle between the nose and eyes, when facing straight on. That obviously varies by angle.

This might help folks visualize the upper CNS:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsmp39p61v.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsmp39p61v.jpeg.html)

[JHC]

Very flat sloping forehead. Not much of a target up there eh? Bear skulls are deceiving from the outside is what I've often read.

[SamAdams]

This is a good reminder for me to check out my bear spray canisters - expiration dates, overall condition, etc

[Wendell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA>

[Wendell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFwr2ycgXk

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFwr2ycgXk>

[GJM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA>

Love all the penetration he is so distressed about, for my use in the field around large animals.

[Malamute]

Love all the penetration he is so distressed about, for my use in the field around large animals.

I agree with your comment, and disagree with his closing assessment of the common fmj loads as being equivalent as extreme penetrators. The fmj stuff isn't designed with bullet integrity in mind on harder targets.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ref auto glass testing, in conversation with Doc Roberts he thought that this would be the most valid of the FBI tests as far as bullet use against large animals. If a bullets gets deep after auto glass it's going to be a penetrator in almost any other scenario.

[GJM]

This afternoon, I got a chance to shoot the Underwood 115 load with the Lehigh penetrator bullet through the Langdon mod 4 Beretta. Just a box, but it functioned fine -- consistent with my experience across multiple calibers and platforms. It did impact higher and left by a few inches at 20 yards compared to Gold Dot and Lawman. Seems like a good penetrator option.

16039

[El Cid]

Ref auto glass testing, in conversation with Doc Roberts he thought that this would be the most valid of the FBI tests as far as bullet use against large animals. If a bullets gets deep after auto glass it's going to be a penetrator in almost any other scenario.

I'm working on getting my hands on either an old car or a windshield for this test. My focus is on 10mm from my G40, but I'll snag a box of the EP load in 9 to see how it does. Was planning to use modeling clay behind the windshield. Getting proper gel is a far reach.

[DocGKR]

In the lower 48 states, any good duty handgun load which works against auto windshields should be fine for most threats.

Where brown bears and the like are prevalent, then a 12 ga with good slugs or a handy .45-70 are the way to go...

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm working on getting my hands on either an old car or a windshield for this test. My focus is on 10mm from my G40, but I'll snag a box of the EP load in 9 to see how it does. Was planning to use modeling clay behind the windshield. Getting proper gel is a far reach.

I have been known to prop a plank up, bridging from the dash to the back seat backs, line water jugs up on the plank, shoot through windshield.

One can often get cracked windshields for free from the local glass repair place.

[GJM]

I can't imagine anyone who has hunted brown bears or defended against a brown bear attack thinking that a handgun should be primary for brown bear defense. I also can't imagine anyone who has hunted brown bears or defended against a brown bear attack not wanting a handgun capable of poking a hole in a bear's skull for those times the primary long gun goes TU or is not in your hands, as you go about your activities of daily living in brown bear country. .

[El Cid]

I have been known to prop a plank up, bridging from the dash to the back seat backs, line water jugs up on the plank, shoot through windshield.

One can often get cracked windshields for free from the local glass repair place.

Roger that! I'll have to come up with something creative.

[Lester Polfus]

Roger that! I'll have to come up Wotan something creative.

I don't know of that was intentional, or serendipitous auto-correct, but either way it's awesome....

[Lester Polfus]

I can't imagine anyone who has hunted brown bears or defended against a brown bear attack thinking that a handgun should be primary for brown bear defense. I also can't imagine anyone who has hunted brown bears or defended against a brown bear attack not wanting a handgun capable of poking a hole in a bear's skull for those times the primary long gun goes TU or is not in your hands, as you go about your activities of daily living in brown bear country. .

I think only a fool would argue against a 12 gauge full of Brennekes or a .45-70 in bear country, but your perspective is what brings things down to earth. There's a difference between going into the bush to hunt or otherwise recreate, and living there and trying to accomplish other forms of work. It simply isn't possible to do everything with a long gun in your hand or slung, so you need a handgun.

While all handguns may be inadequate to the task, some are less inadequate than others, which is why I've followed your quest to figure out the "Field Pistol" with great interest. There's a sweet spot between power, portability, and shoot-ability where only a few handguns live.

[El Cid]

I don't know of that was intentional, or serendipitous auto-correct, but either way it's awesome....

Lmao! No I'm not that clever. I hate phones...

[KhanRad]

Back when I lived in Wyoming, I hand loaded 9mm+P brass, and 147gr Gold Dots to 1150fps from a Sig P226. Never used it on an animal, but it would punch through 1/8" steel flooring(like those used in stairs), 8"x 8" pressure treated wood, and fully expanded while penetrating through 6 1-gallon jugs of water. I never came across a service caliber and load that had the level of penetration with a JHP. Full power .357magnum loads on the other hand would leave it in the dust.....

[GJM]

Speaking of outdoor loads, yesterday my wife and I went heli hiking in the hills with our dog. I ended up drawing my PX4C twice, when we got charged by a cow on the way out on our hike, and a smaller bull on the way back in. No shots fired, as they turned, but it got me wondering about this thread and whether to load penetrator loads even in lower 48. Think a Gold Dot will penetrate a cow's skull with a frontal shot?

[Clusterfrack]

Speaking of outdoor loads, yesterday my wife and I went heli hiking in the hills with our dog. I ended up drawing my PX4C twice, when we got charged by a cow on the way out on our hike, and a smaller bull on the way back in. No shots fired, as they turned, but it got me wondering about this thread and whether to load penetrator loads even in lower 48. Think a Gold Dot will penetrate a cow's skull with a frontal shot?

Jeez. Fucking cows. Glad you're ok. I've been knocked off my mountain bike and down a hill by a cow, and had a scary bullfight using my bike as a shield--just to mention a couple of bad bovine encounters.

[Malamute]

Speaking of outdoor loads, yesterday my wife and I went heli hiking in the hills with our dog. I ended up drawing my PX4C twice, when we got charged by a cow on the way out on our hike, and a smaller bull on the way back in. No shots fired, as they turned, but it got me wondering about this thread and whether to load penetrator loads even in lower 48. Think a Gold Dot will penetrate a cow's skull with a frontal shot?

I would. They may not have the determination to destroy or eat you like a bear, or the meanness of a moose, but could seriously ruin your day or life out of comparatively clumsy annoyance at your presence. A large animal is a large animal when it comes to stopping them from acting against your best health and interest.

[El Cid]

I would. They may not have the determination to destroy or eat you like a bear, or the meanness of a moose, but could seriously ruin your day or life out of comparatively clumsy annoyance at your presence. A large animal is a large animal when it comes to stopping them from acting against your best health and interest.

Agreed. I'll have my 10mm with Extreme Penetrator loads anytime I venture into the "woods." I'll have mags with traditional bonded JHP's handy, but people aren't always the top of the food chain outdoors.

[GJM]

My wife points out that the small Arcteryx pack she hikes with, holds this perfectly.

16172

[CCT125US]

Did somebody say cows? The large feller on the right of my drive is Mr. Bull, he is about 1800 lbs. Perhaps I should rethink the 124gr Gold Dots.
16175

On the grill is the offspring, with next year's on the horizon.
16176

[Sigfan26]

My wife points out that the small Arcteryx pack she hikes with, holds this perfectly.

16172

Now, if a reliable 10mm version existed (for less than the cost of my current vehicle) that would be amazing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Our cows Sunday were free ranging out on remote BLM land. Am open to any advice on what to expect and do when they come at you with purpose.

I called Dakota Tactical today, and they said the 10mm models are not currently being made due to lack of proper barrels.

[Malamute]

Usually, waving your arms, approaching them and yelling gets their attention, and they balk, and turn and go. Usually. Once in a while, the ones that spend most of their life surviving in the sticks didn't get the memo, and they don't turn and go. If it were me, Id do a shot in the air or whatever, then evaluate the results. Id probably give a cow more leeway, unless they acted totally determined to be stupid.

The possible upside of having to dispatch a cow, you may be able to pay off the owner and keep the beef.

[Sigfan26]

I called Dakota Tactical today, and they said the 10mm models are not currently being made due to lack of proper barrels.

That makes me sad:(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Frank R]

Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 147gr. HC-FN https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

[Duelist]

Ranchers usually aren't very happy when someone shoots or otherwise kills a cow. You might not think its a big deal, but for him, each cow represents years of effort and thousands of dollars. And you probably won't kill the cow he was going to send to market, either. How would you even know, or be able to tell?

Not saying you shouldn't be prepared to deal with an agressive range cow: just saying, be prepared to write a check afterward.

[JHC]

Speaking of outdoor loads, yesterday my wife and I went heli hiking in the hills with our dog. I ended up drawing my PX4C twice, when we got charged by a cow on the way out on our hike, and a smaller bull on the way back in. No shots fired, as they turned, but it got me wondering about this thread and whether to load penetrator loads even in lower 48. Think a Gold Dot will penetrate a cow's skull with a frontal shot?

I think it was back through the 90's that Ayoob inked a lot more info about terminal ballistics and loads. One of his favorite tests was to shoot cattle at a slaughterhouse through the front of their skulls and then report on the bullets performance. Many JHP loads were successful. I don't know where one could find all those, if they have a box of all the "Combat Handguns" published in the '90's they'd probably find them there.

I can't say I can recall any total failures to immediately drop the steer.

[GJM]

Ranchers usually aren't very happy when someone shoots or otherwise kills a cow. You might not think its a big deal, but for him, each cow represents years of effort and thousands of dollars. And you probably won't kill the cow he was going to send to market, either. How would you even know, or be able to tell?

Not saying you shouldn't be prepared to deal with an agressive range cow: just saying, be prepared to write a check afterward.

We were 60 miles east of here, up in the mountains, on very remote, BLM land. We went by helicopter, but it would be hours by Polaris, to get back in there. The only persons more unhappy than the rancher in that situation would be us, as shooting livestock is not on our short list. However, there is a line in the dirt, at about five yards, where we are not willing to be trampled. Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with the applicable law for such a situation?

[Duelist]

Don't blame you for not wanting to be trampled.

WAG on the applicable law: cattle are livestock, property. Destroying one in a non-malicious incident is going to be a civil issue to reimburse the owner for damages. It's BLM land, multi use, so it's not anything like walking out into a private property pasture (trespassing) and shooting something for the sake of doing it (willful and malicious behavior) - that would be criminal, nor is it the same thing as a drunken "hunter" mistaking a 1500# steer for a 100# deer - blatant stupidity.

What you're talking about is self defense, which has to be a legal act; whether the law would hold you liable for damages, I don't know for sure, but like I said, it would be a civil, not criminal, I'm guessing.

Not a lawyer by any means, just another guy who likes to hike and hunt on public lands that also include cattle leases.

[Malamute]

This is totally spitballing, but here goes...

I personally would be less concerned about the legal or financial issues of shooting a cow than a bear or other wildlife in the lower 48. If it were a bull kept for breeding cows, the cost would likely be higher, but I believe the main concern would be financial responsibility to the owner of the cow. Market value isn't that difficult to determine in the case of most cows. If you have personal liability insurance it may cover it, though I don't know. It may be worth checking. If you had your go-pro or phone recording a cow or bull that was acting aggressive or nutty, it may moderate the effect when the liability of an aggressive animal on public land was factored in. Cows aren't normally a big issue, but just being big and dopey, they can squish or bend up us little wimpy people without much effort.


And, if it were me, and I had to pay for a cow, Id be planning a BBQ.

[That Guy]

Reading through this, an idle thought occurred to me: has anyone done any testing of the Magtech 147gr FMJ-FN round?

[JHC]

Don't blame you for not wanting to be trampled.

WAG on the applicable law: cattle are livestock, property. Destroying one in a non-malicious incident is going to be a civil issue to reimburse the owner for damages. It's BLM land, multi use, so it's not anything like walking out into a private property pasture (trespassing) and shooting something for the sake of doing it (willful and malicious behavior) - that would be criminal, nor is it the same thing as a drunken "hunter" mistaking a 1500# steer for a 100# deer - blatant stupidity.

What you're talking about is self defense, which has to be a legal act; whether the law would hold you liable for damages, I don't know for sure, but like I said, it would be a civil, not criminal, I'm guessing.

Not a lawyer by any means, just another guy who likes to hike and hunt on public lands that also include cattle leases.

Wow. It would be a pity for anyone to have to pay $10 for defending themselves from a mean cow left out to graze on some remote section of BLM land. Seems like "let the grazer beware" would apply.

[BillSWPA]

If one is on public land and truly had no choice but to shoot, not only would I expect the shooter not to have to pay, but would expect the owner of the animal to b liable for any harm the animal does.

However, if sued civilly, it may be cheaper to reach a settlement than to fight. It may also be cheaper for the owner of the animal to accept something less than full value in order to avoid legal fees plus a possibility of losing the suit.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

It's not uncommon to put cows down with a .22lr round through the brain. If you can hit the brain box it shouldn't be that big a deal.

[Chuck Haggard]

http://www.progressivedairy.com/topics/herd-health/tips-for-humanely-euthanizing-cattle

[SeriousStudent]

http://www.progressivedairy.com/topics/herd-health/tips-for-humanely-euthanizing-cattle

That's a good article.

[GJM]

That's a good article.


Snippet:

In most cases, the most humane and cost effective way to put down a dairy cow is with a firearm.

Handguns should be fired from a range of 2 to 3 feet of the intended target, and calibers ranging from .32 to .45 are recommended for putting down dairy cattle. The .22 caliber handgun is not recommended for mature cattle.

Solid bullets are recommended over hollow points because they are more likely to penetrate the skull. Hollow points are not recommended because they fragment on impact and are less likely to penetrate the skull, which is necessary to cause destruction of brain tissue sufficient to cause death.

Rifles may be required when it is necessary to euthanize an animal from a distance. General rifle selections for euthanizing dairy cattle include .22 magnum, .223, .243, .270 and .308.

[Lester Polfus]

Snippet:


Solid bullets are recommended over hollow points because they are more likely to penetrate the skull. Hollow points are not recommended because they fragment on impact and are less likely to penetrate the skull, which is necessary to cause destruction of brain tissue sufficient to cause death.


I agree, and...

Some of the info in that article regarding JHP ammo may come from people who bought the cheapest box of holler points at The Walmart.

There's a big difference between cup and core and say, a Speer Gold Dot.

[JBP55]

A local butcher at a slaughtering house always used a .22 rifle to the head at close range on hogs, cattle, etc. They dropped like a rock.

[El Cid]

A local butcher at a slaughtering house always used a .22 rifle to the head at close range on hogs, cattle, etc. They dropped like a rock.

Through the skull? I'd figure putting one in the ear would be a better way to reach the brain.

[Wendell]

A local butcher at a slaughtering house always used a .22 rifle to the head at close range on hogs, cattle, etc. They dropped like a rock.

That was experience too. A contact shot with .22 long out of a Cooey. (I never saw a .22LR cartridge until much later, like '82 or '83.) Like a rock.

[GJM]

16323

[JHC]

http://www.progressivedairy.com/topics/herd-health/tips-for-humanely-euthanizing-cattle

Wow! Right between the eyes could be a big mistake!

[SamAdams]

I agree, and...

Some of the info in that article regarding JHP ammo may come from people who bought the cheapest box of holler points at The Walmart.

There's a big difference between cup and core and say, a Speer Gold Dot.

I keep telling that to some friends and family, but the 'male pride' thing or something seems to get in the way.
Yes, I refer them to this forum and Doc's work.

[StraitR]

Some food for thought from Larry Mudgett's site. http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/handgun-ammunition-for-carrying-in-the-woods/

That was an excellent article, thank you for posting. There were several other very good reads on his site, and specifically the linked article below as it speaks to the broad topic of discussion in this thread.

Dangerous Predators Stopped with Handguns - by Larry Mudgett (http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/dangerous-predators-stopped-with-handguns/)

[GJM]

Change of scenery today:

16871

First day I have not had my Langdon mod 4, since early Feb:

16872

[Bigghoss]

It was time to change out my carry ammo anyway so I went over to Sportsman's Warehouse and grabbed 5 boxes of Critical Duty +p 9mm. I have already tried it out along with some other loads while looking for new carry ammo when I saw this thread. Next week some friends and I are going on a week-long camping/road trip so we'll be going back and forth between urban and quasi-remote areas so I was hoping to find something that would allow me to not have to change out ammo all the time as well as allowing me to have a pistol equipped with a light. With sales tax it worked out to right at $1/round. I advised my friends to pick some up as well for their pistols.

Also cleaned out Midway of Federal Vital-shok low recoil slugs for my 12gauge.

[JBP55]

Bigghoss, You may want to find another place to purchase your 9mm defensive ammunition. I have purchased many cases of quality 9mm defensive ammunition over the years and I have never paid anywhere near $1 a round. I lost quite a few cases of it when my house flooded last August.

[JHC]

Bigghoss, You may want to find another place to purchase your 9mm defensive ammunition. I have purchased many cases of quality 9mm defensive ammunition over the years and I have never paid anywhere near $1 a round. I lost quite a few cases of it when my house flooded last August.

Critical Duty is rather exceptionally expensive. Here it's $.72/round but you will be paying freight on it, depending how much you order. http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/25-round-box-9mm-135-grain-standard-pressue-critical-duty-flexlock-hollow-point-9023

But we're not talking about large quantities (cases) anyway.

Buying it retail here, yeah it would be around a buck a round.

[dpadams6]

Bigghoss, You may want to find another place to purchase your 9mm defensive ammunition. I have purchased many cases of quality 9mm defensive ammunition over the years and I have never paid anywhere near $1 a round. I lost quite a few cases of it when my house flooded last August.
Yup. Good quality federal hst are about 25/box of 50.... Sometimes less

[Bigghoss]

Everywhere I checked online (that had it in stock) was ~$22-23 per box of 25. $1/round was with sales tax. SGammo never came up on my search though. For testing I had ordered it from midway for $20/25 but they were out of stock. Oh well. At the end of the day this lesson only cost about $25 or so.

Other problem is I didn't have time to wait for shipping. I'm leaving on my trip in a few days.

[dpadams6]

https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/collections/ammunition/9mm