Ohio thing FB lives random murder of an elderly man...

[BaiHu]

[emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35] [emoji35]
http://heavy.com/news/2017/04/stevie-steve-stephens-cleveland-facebook-live-shooting-full-video-unedited-watch/

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[Luke]

There is a special place is hell for trash like this. I hope the police find him and I hope he resists.

[Clobbersaurus]

Absolutely sickening.

[172driver]

I have no words...

[voodoo_man]

He can probably count the number of hours he's going to be free and/or alive.

Hopefully that time is very short.

[Totem Polar]

He's going down almost instantly. What i know of ohio LE guarantees it.
But, yeah, that FB thing. Between the omnipresent visual media, our politics, "speech riots", fanaticism, pollution, and weird ass fashions; i feel like I'm living in an 80's-era comedic/dystopian sci fi action flick.

[Olim9]

Sickening. Hope he gets lit the fuck up before he can try to kill himself. Scumbags like this don't deserve handcuffs.

[Soggy]

Really wish I hadn't watched that. RIP Mr. Godwin.

Dear CPD: Please stay safe, and happy hunting.

[Kanati]

Damn. Poor old dude.

What was it a couple years ago with the sucker punching random folks, the knock out game or something? Here's hoping this doesn't turn into this years version of that.

[TGS]

He's going down almost instantly. What i know of ohio LE guarantees it.
But, yeah, that FB thing. Between the omnipresent visual media, our politics, "speech riots", fanaticism, pollution, and weird ass fashions; i feel like I'm living in an 80's-era comedic/dystopian sci fi action flick.

Like Hobo with a Shotgun.

[RJ]

This was posted by a friend of mine:

"I can't stop thinking about this man. My heart breaks for his family. At 74 years old, Robert Godwin, Sr. had lived a lot of life, but still had more to go. A retired foundry worker, he'd raised nine children, and had fourteen grandchildren. He walked the streets collecting aluminum cans to recycle. In fact, that's what he was doing when he was killed. For those of you unfortunate enough to have seen the video, you'll remember the plastic shopping bag he was holding. His family said he always carried those to hold the cans.

So what you have is a hardworking man, a family man, who did his part to keep his neighborhood clean. Even at seventy-four, he continued to do something to make a difference in his community. By all accounts, he was a good man. Robert was the kind of guy for whom we as police do the job.

It saddens me that he will forever be known as the guy shot down in cold blood by a coward. His personal accomplishments and successes will be forgotten or overlooked by the masses, and his family will deal with that horrible image of his last moments for the rest of their lives. I ask each of you to commit to not sharing or posting the video. If you already have, I humbly beg you to take it down. The bastard that killed him doesn't deserve the infamy he so clearly wanted by posting it.

We spend quite a bit these days as a society bickering over whose life matters in our petty, ongoing hashtag wars. Well, consider this: Robert Godwin, Sr.'s life mattered.

For those out there hunting this coward, I wish you safety, courage, and resolve. Bring this monster to justice, dead or alive."

[voodoo_man]

Few things I've noticed concerning this situation...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9kzH3FUQAARsS4.jpg

Can someone explain to me what "Dark White Skin" means? I've been doing this police job for a while now and "light skinned black male" is the closest I have ever heard this described - is this some new type of "blame whitey" rhetoric we seem to expect from the MSM?

A lot of people seem to be reposting this and "doing their part" of spreading the word, yet there are people who are local to that area who just stay inside their homes, or go about their day as if nothing is happening which affects them.

What should they be doing? Get that CCW people seem to post dozens of photos about daily and go out looking for this guy. Afterall, he is actively looking to kill people in your community. But ohh wait, that's the responsibility of the police, right? Just let them handle the big bad dangerous things, right? People seem to be too busy taking selfies with firearms and not out there trying to do something worthwhile.

While I know there are plenty of "not my battle" types, it will be your battle when your elderly father gets gunned down in the middle of the day on the street, or another family member.

[mmc45414]

Can someone explain to me what "Dark White Skin" means?

I sure can't... No police work but I spent some time in the printing industry and white is the absence of color...

[scjbash]

The dark white skin line is Photoshopped.

[Totem Polar]

Like Hobo with a Shotgun.

^^^I don't think we're there yet. :D

More like 1987's "Running Man." We are definitely edging closer to that masterpiece.

[JTQ]

... I spent some time in the printing industry and white is the absence of color...
For clarity, and in the theoretical concept of colors, isn't white the presence of all colors.

[Sensei]

Few things I've noticed concerning this situation...

Can someone explain to me what "Dark White Skin" means...?

That is photoshopped. The creators of that crap are banking on the hope that people will post the image without performing their due diligence. By leaving that image in your post, you are feeding the lowest common denominator of the internet who would use this tragedy to fuel their race baiting BS. Hopefully you will take it down or ask a moderator to do so if your post has timed out for edits.

This thread should be about 1) capturing or killing a murderous asshole and 2) honoring the memory of a man who was murdered despite giving to society far more than he took.

[blues]

For clarity, and in the theoretical concept of colors, isn't white the presence of all colors.

I guess Benetton is in for a rude awakening when they change their trademark to "The United Whiteness Of Benetton". ;)

[Robinson]

For clarity, and in the theoretical concept of colors, isn't white the presence of all colors.

That depends on what question you are really asking. Are you referring to the media/pigment/colorant or how colors are generated by light? Or perhaps rather to how human vision perceives color? If put in each context, then the answers to your question are no, yes, yes. :)

[voodoo_man]

That is photoshopped. The creators of that crap are banking on the hope that people will post the image without performing their due diligence. By leaving that image in your post, you are feeding the lowest common denominator of the internet who would use this tragedy to fuel their race baiting BS. Hopefully you will take it down or ask a moderator to do so if your post has timed out for edits.

This thread should be about 1) capturing or killing a murderous asshole and 2) honoring the memory of a man who was murdered despite giving to society far more than he took.

Not going to take it down or ask for it be taken down.

If it's photoshop'd then hiding it is the same as agreeing with it, the internet feeds itself and if it is indeed a photoshop (link the proof please) then it is and that is that. None of that changes the fact that the POS in question needs to be captured quickly.

[JDM]

I don't know if a link for proof is needed. Looks at the "white skin" part. It is clearly lacks the same shadow that the rest of the writing in the image has.

Also, the letter spacing between the w and h in white is fucked up.

Further, the pattern of capitalization is not the same as in the rest of the writing...ish.

[mmc45414]

For clarity, and in the theoretical concept of colors, isn't white the presence of all colors.

Hmmm, depends on if it additive or subtractive, if you are talking about light or ink. :)

[RJ]

I saw where local authorities are offering $50,000 for information leading to this guy.

Hope they find him soon.

[Hambo]

I really hope this hunt ends soon...with CPD SWAT putting this asshole down.

[SeriousStudent]

Good luck and good hunting to all the LEO's.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victim and his family.

[11B10]

That is photoshopped. The creators of that crap are banking on the hope that people will post the image without performing their due diligence. By leaving that image in your post, you are feeding the lowest common denominator of the internet who would use this tragedy to fuel their race baiting BS. Hopefully you will take it down or ask a moderator to do so if your post has timed out for edits.

This thread should be about 1) capturing or killing a murderous asshole and 2) honoring the memory of a man who was murdered despite giving to society far more than he took.




With all my heart - this ^^^^^!!!

[MistWolf]

Not going to take it down or ask for it be taken down.

If it's photoshop'd then hiding it is the same as agreeing with it, the internet feeds itself and if it is indeed a photoshop (link the proof please) then it is and that is that. None of that changes the fact that the POS in question needs to be captured quickly.

The biggest tell that it's fake is the descriptor in question is by itself, above the suspect's name

[StraitR]

Fuck Mark Zuckerberg.

[Kanati]

Fuck Mark Zuckerberg.

Is he the shooter in this case?

I get that social media has given rise to some horrific stuff done by some horrific people in the quest for instant ego stroking fame. Fuck Zukerberg is no different than Fuck Glock, Fuck Ruger, Fuck Walther.....Fuck the manufacturer of whatever gun was used in this shooting.

Fuck Steve Stephens.

[BaiHu]

Is he the shooter in this case?

I get that social media has given rise to some horrific stuff done by some horrific people in the quest for instant ego stroking fame. Fuck Zukerberg is no different than Fuck Glock, Fuck Ruger, Fuck Walther.....Fuck the manufacturer of whatever gun was used in this shooting.

Fuck Steve Stephens.
Perhaps I'm projecting, but StraitR's "eff Zuckerberg", to me, meant the following:

Left leaning anti anything not California approved Zuckerberg provides a platform where he can manipulate viewership and content will now use this opportunity to restrict free speech that he doesn't agree with. Joining Google/YouTube.

Video of police UOF, that clarifies the officer's actions and could reduce riots, can be deemed not suitable for viewers, thereby becoming a passive aggressive agent to buttress support for an anti cop movement.

That and many other possible ways these libtards will not let this "crisis go to waste".

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[Kanati]

Perhaps I'm projecting, but StraitR's "eff Zuckerberg", to me, meant the following:

Left leaning anti anything not California approved Zuckerberg provides a platform where he can manipulate viewership and content will now use this opportunity to restrict free speech that he doesn't agree with. Joining Google/YouTube.

Video of police UOF, that clarifies the officer's actions and could reduce riots, can be deemed not suitable for viewers, thereby becoming a passive aggressive agent to buttress support for an anti cop movement.

That and many other possible ways these libtards will not let this "crisis go to waste".

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It's interesting watching how the digital age is unfolding.

I'd point out FB isn't a government institution saying no, you can't say that, so there's no freedom of speech there at all. If he (or his shareholders / board / whatever) decides they don't want something on their platform, that's their business.

I agree about the left not letting a crisis go to waste. Attempting in any way to paint Zukerberg responsible for the actions of this a-hole in Cleveland is playing right out of that playbook...... don't blame the individual or their behavior, blame something (or someone) that a sizeable percentage of the population already dislikes.

[StraitR]

Is he the shooter in this case?

I get that social media has given rise to some horrific stuff done by some horrific people in the quest for instant ego stroking fame. Fuck Zukerberg is no different than Fuck Glock, Fuck Ruger, Fuck Walther.....Fuck the manufacturer of whatever gun was used in this shooting.

Fuck Steve Stephens.

Because I despise FB for more reasons than I could ever fully articulate, so by extension, it's billionaire "inventor" that retreated to his 200 million dollar safe space behind a wall in Hawaii to watch the world burn as he rakes in the money. So yeah, fuck that guy. I didn't watch the video, because I refuse to empower people that do BS like this or help enable or inspire future shitbags to follow suit.

Maybe it's your door, to your family, they kick in next time, just to broadcast a death. All this live streaming crap is yet another form of social media cancer.

ETA: But just for the sake of clarity, I don't blame Zuckerberg, or guns, or Apple/Android, or even the POS's parents, or social upbringing, I blame HIM specifically. The fundamental principals of responsibility and accountability are not lost on me.

[blues]

All I've got to say in regard to this abomination of a "human" is the deader the faster the better.

[BaiHu]

It's interesting watching how the digital age is unfolding.

I'd point out FB isn't a government institution saying no, you can't say that, so there's no freedom of speech there at all. If he (or his shareholders / board / whatever) decides they don't want something on their platform, that's their business.

I agree about the left not letting a crisis go to waste. Attempting in any way to paint Zukerberg responsible for the actions of this a-hole in Cleveland is playing right out of that playbook...... don't blame the individual or their behavior, blame something (or someone) that a sizeable percentage of the population already dislikes.
I agree that Zuckerberg can do what he wants. However, the left is famously hypocritical here regarding the 1st amendment.

Lastly, I don't think anyone here is blaming anyone other than this POS.

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[OlongJohnson]

Some pretty interesting thoughts on iGooFaceTube here:

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-is-technology-doing-to-us

[Lost River]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9kzH3FUQAARsS4.jpg



Not that I advocate vigilante style justice, but there are a select few evil scum in our society that I genuinely wish I would bump into in a parking lot..

[Malamute]

News just said instigator is dead in Pennsylvania. After a brief pursuit, he shot himself, according to first reports.

[BaiHu]

Coward through and through:
Steve Stephens, the Cleveland man who gunned down a stranger on Easter Sunday, sparking a five-state manhunt, killed himself after being stopped by police in Erie, Pa., according to Pennsylvania State Police*
ETA: should've done this a week ago before he took that guy's life.

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[voodoo_man]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-facebook-killer-steve-stephens-dead-car-after-pursuit-pa-n747821

Coward POS killed himself in his car after PSP pursued him.

[lwt16]

News just said instigator is dead in Pennsylvania. After a brief pursuit, he shot himself, according to first reports.

Now THAT'S the video I want to see.

I haven't watched the other video and won't as I have no desire to see an innocent person be murdered. I was hoping his killer would soak up tax payer funded rounds from a duty weapon but I'll take this too.

Anything but a trial and diversion of blame to others.

May he rot in Hades.

Regards.

[Kyle Reese]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-facebook-killer-steve-stephens-dead-car-after-pursuit-pa-n747821

Coward POS killed himself in his car after PSP pursued him.


Too bad he just didn't do that instead of murdering that innocent man.

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[voodoo_man]

Too bad he just didn't do that instead of murdering that innocent man.

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Cowards will do cowardly things.

What a live feed would have been if that old man carried all his life and dusted the piss out of that coward.

[Chance]

Man this fucking sucks. Poor guy was just minding his own damned business walking home.

15747

[NEPAKevin]

Man this fucking sucks. Poor guy was just minding his own damned business walking home.



Definition of "wrong place at the wrong time."

[okie john]

Definition of "wrong place at the wrong time."

Also of not having a gun when you need one. I watched the video, and I believe that Mr. Godwin might have had time to get off a shot had he been armed and gone through MUC procedures.


Okie John

[KeeFus]

Good riddance.

[HCM]

http://m.tmz.com/2017/04/18/mcdonalds-workers-held-facebook-killers-fries/

FACEBOOK KILLER- MCDONALD'S WORKERS HELD HIS FRIES SO COPS COULD CATCH HIM


Facebook killer Steve Stephens was undone by McDonald's employees who ID'd him and made him wait a little extra time for his order so the cops could come and catch him.

Stephens went through the drive-thru at the McDonald's on Buffalo Road in Erie, PA when one of the workers recognized him. He ordered a 20-piece McNugget and a large fry ... but workers made it seem the fries weren't ready so they could buy time.

According to the restaurant's manager ... Stephens got his nuggets, but then said he had to go and he drove off without the fries. It was enough time for cops to get on his tail.

[Tamara]

Anybody who fell for that blatantly obvious photochop should probably feel a little embarrassed.

Not only was the 'shop job obvious, but the wording itself was so blatantly nonsensical...

If you did, you need to have a long couple minutes of self-reflection before you snarkily toss around the "fake news" epithet in the future.

[voodoo_man]

Anybody who fell for that blatantly obvious photochop should probably feel a little embarrassed.

Not only was the 'shop job obvious, but the wording itself was so blatantly nonsensical...

If you did, you need to have a long couple minutes of self-reflection before you snarkily toss around the "fake news" epithet in the future.

You can just quote me instead of being passive aggressive, you aren't embarrassing me nor am I going to follow any such meaningless suggestions.

The fact it was chopped and let loose into the general media is cause for concern. It had to be posted in order to be discussed.

Maybe we should be having a conversation about the second part of my post everyone seems to have skimmed over. So many tough guys online yet not a single post about people going to look for this guy. Amazing.

[Caballoflaco]

He was caught because somebody working at McDonald's with a clue held his order up long enough to call the police. That's damned good work in my book.

For us regular earth people what would you have us do besides carry on with our lives and try to be as observant as possible? Our justice system is set up is to protect citizens from vigilante justice too, so it's not like we can go around kickin' down his third baby mama's door lookin' for him. Don't you think that might get in the way of professionals with more resources and time than the average person?

[NerdAlert]

Maybe we should be having a conversation about the second part of my post everyone seems to have skimmed over. So many tough guys online yet not a single post about people going to look for this guy. Amazing.

That part of your post sounded to me like some Grossman sheepdog stuff. I just wrote it off as you were frustrated by the situation and venting. Since you brought it up again...

Concealed carry holders are not cops. If someone feels compelled to go into harms way to protect the public, they should pursue being a police officer, firefighter, soldier, etc.

It seems like you are suggesting that it is somehow everyone's responsibility to hunt people like this guy down. The fact is police are not only required to go after bad guys while the rest of us stay inside and discuss dry fire and split times on the internet, but they are the only ones legally allowed to do so. I can't imagine the thought process behind suggesting that a private citizen put themselves in harms way to track down a fool like this just so they can stand trial, have their life ruined, and be stripped of their rights. Maybe I mis-interpreted your post, but this is literally what the police are for. To suggest otherwise, especially coming from a sworn LEO, seems...strange, to put it politely.


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[voodoo_man]

That part of your post sounded to me like some Grossman sheepdog stuff. I just wrote it off as you were frustrated by the situation and venting. Since you brought it up again...

Concealed carry holders are not cops. If someone feels compelled to go into harms way to protect the public, they should pursue being a police officer, firefighter, soldier, etc.

It seems like you are suggesting that it is somehow everyone's responsibility to hunt people like this guy down. The fact is police are not only required to go after bad guys while the rest of us stay inside and discuss dry fire and split times on the internet, but they are the only ones legally allowed to do so. I can't imagine the thought process behind suggesting that a private citizen put themselves in harms way to track down a fool like this just so they can stand trial, have their life ruined, and be stripped of their rights. Maybe I mis-interpreted your post, but this is literally what the police are for. To suggest otherwise, especially coming from a sworn LEO, seems...strange, to put it politely.


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You just went out of your way to quote every single cliche internet excuse for not getting involved.

If that's how you feel, keep on trucking.

The fact remains that if there is a dangerous person loose in your community, the answer should not be "well that's not my problem."

[NerdAlert]

You just went out of your way to quote every single cliche internet excuse for not getting involved.

If that's how you feel, keep on trucking.

The fact remains that if there is a dangerous person loose in your community, the answer should not be "well that's not my problem."

That's exactly how I feel. It's also the law. I'm really confused by what you're suggesting. Are you saying that regular joe concealed carry holder has some sort of responsibility or legal justification to go out and hunt guys like this? I'm honestly trying to understand, because that seems like it would violate a ton of laws. Ton being a legal term of course.

Not sure what cliches you're talking about but illegal vigilante manhunts weren't in any of the material I saw when looking up justifiable use of force for civilians. Unless you can demonstrate how someone could legally do this to protect their "community" I'm really at a loss for how you expect a regular concealed carry holder to proceed.

Continuing to imply that citizens are somehow required (let alone legally allowed) to pursue someone wanted by police just seems like a strange thing for an officer of the law to suggest.

If you are appealing to the "All that is necessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing" angle I get that. The problem with that is good men generally don't break the law in the name of some perverse fake sense of justice. Ok now I'm done. Sorry for the thread drift.


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[voodoo_man]

That's exactly how I feel. It's also the law. I'm really confused by what you're suggesting. Are you saying that regular joe concealed carry holder has some sort of responsibility or legal justification to go out and hunt guys like this? I'm honestly trying to understand, because that seems like it would violate a ton of laws. Ton being a legal term of course.

Not sure what cliches you're talking about but illegal vigilante manhunts weren't in any of the material I saw when looking up justifiable use of force for civilians. Unless you can demonstrate how someone could legally do this to protect their "community" I'm really at a loss for how you expect a regular concealed carry holder to proceed.

Continuing to imply that citizens are somehow required (let alone legally allowed) to pursue someone wanted by police just seems like a strange thing for an officer of the law to suggest.

If you are appealing to the "All that is necessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing" angle I get that. The problem with that is good men generally don't break the law in the name of some perverse fake sense of justice. Ok now I'm done. Sorry for the thread drift.


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Citizens are legally allowed to pursue persons who are actively seeking to do violence against others. All indications, the subjects own statements suggested he was actively seeking to murder others. His actions which were live for the world to see confirmed this. There is not a DA in the entire country who would charge a CCW permit holder for dusting this guy, on the contrary that person would probably get a medal.

I get it, you want you sit at home and talk about dry fire on the internet. You only carry for "me and mine" and that is fine. That is your level of personal willingness.

It also happens to be one of the bigger fundamental problems in American culture today.

We are all responsible for our ignorance.

[Robinson]

Citizens are legally allowed to pursue persons who are actively seeking to do violence against others. All indications, the subjects own statements suggested he was actively seeking to murder others. His actions which were live for the world to see confirmed this. There is not a DA in the entire country who would charge a CCW permit holder for dusting this guy, on the contrary that person would probably get a medal.

I get it, you want you sit at home and talk about dry fire on the internet. You only carry for "me and mine" and that is fine. That is your level of personal willingness.

It also happens to be one of the bigger fundamental problems in American culture today.

We are all responsible for our ignorance.

I appreciate your passionate view about this -- but I'm not sure your characterization is fair. Reluctance to do what you are suggesting may have nothing to do with "not caring enough to get involved". It probably has more to do with not wanting to face the legal fallout from doing so. So a non-LEO citizen spots this guy and decides to act. How can it be done in such a way that it doesn't amount to murder? What if the citizen makes a mistake and IDs the wrong person?

Isn't the right course of action an arrest and trial (due process) ? Of course, if a dirtbag like this guy were to resist arrest and be ventilated by officers that would be just fine. Gunned down by an intended victim would be even better. But a citizen executing a suspected murderer sounds an awful lot like murder.

I can't help thinking that someone who does what you suggest will end up having his/her personal life pretty much ruined by the consequences.

Or maybe I just don't understand exactly what you are suggesting.

[Peally]

If he's on my lawn or actively attacking someone across the street I'll do something about it. If a vigilante posse shows up on my porch asking me to join in an unorganized manhunt I'll politely tell them to go fuck off.

[blues]

Platitudes are easy to paper the webz with. Consequences are not nearly so neatly or easily dealt with.
(Though it seems pretty easy to pontificate when it's someone else footing the bill.)

Circumstance will dictate what may or may not be appropriate in any given eventuality. A familiarity with the law and one's rights vis-à-vis carrying and use of a firearm will go a long way.

[RoyGBiv]

I appreciate your passionate view about this -- but I'm not sure your characterization is fair. Reluctance to do what you are suggesting may have nothing to do with "not caring enough to get involved". It probably has more to do with not wanting to face the legal fallout from doing so. So a non-LEO citizen spots this guy and decides to act. How can it be done in such a way that it doesn't amount to murder? What if the citizen makes a mistake and IDs the wrong person?

Isn't the right course of action an arrest and trial (due process) ? Of course, if a dirtbag like this guy were to resist arrest and be ventilated by officers that would be just fine. Gunned down by an intended victim would be even better. But a citizen executing a suspected murderer sounds an awful lot like murder.

I can't help thinking that someone who does what you suggest will end up having his/her personal life pretty much ruined by the consequences.

Or maybe I just don't understand exactly what you are suggesting.
+1

If you want to deputize me and have me join your posse, I'm in ... but.. with zero information except what I can glean from the media, by what means do I search for this guy on my own? Assuming I'm willing, and assuming I'm successful, what's the take-down look like? I'm certainly not going to shoot some guy just because he looks like the BG, so, I'd have to try and arrest him? And what authority do I have to do that? And what will a stone cold killer (that I can't shoot until I'm sure it's him) do when I try to arrest him? That's quite a disadvantage for me, no? So, I keep watch and call the COPs.

There's no way I'm going to engage this guy on my own. Far too much downside.

[Sensei]

Should people who post bigoted, fake news crap as if it was real, and then request proof that said crap is fake, be commenting on others having responsiblity for their ignorance? I don't know, something seems off with that dynamic.

[blues]

Should people who post bigoted, fake news crap as if it was real, and then request proof that said crap is fake, be commenting on others having responsiblity for their ignorance? I don't know, something seems off with that dynamic.

Well, when you put it that way...

[voodoo_man]

Just an FYI, anyone with an active warrant for something like homicide and has actively shown their ability to be violent can be legally "citizen arrested" and force can be used to stop their escape. This person is what many would categorize as "a direct and immediate threat to public safety."

The normal public relations line is "if you see this man, please call 911 and do not approach or pursue him." Which is all well and good until you saw the guy and you did exactly what you were told, like a good law abiding citizen, then that guy gets away, goes on to kill another person. Would you feel ethically or morally responsible for not taking action?

Let's just take a step back though, no one seriously expect you to go out looking for this guy, right? Do not go looking for some guy who has randomly killed an innocent person in broad daylight and definitely do nothing. That is just so much safer, there are people who are paid to do this type of thing, right? It is their responsibility to keep you safe, right?

Might as well sell all your firearms, delete your account here and take up golf, maybe subscribe to C. Jenner's blog while you are at it.

[voodoo_man]

Should people who post bigoted, fake news crap as if it was real, and then request proof that said crap is fake, be commenting on others having responsiblity for their ignorance? I don't know, something seems off with that dynamic.

So you outright believe everything you read on the internet without any type of proof?

I've got some carbon credits to sell you....

[RoyGBiv]

Just an FYI, anyone with an active warrant for something like homicide and has actively shown their ability to be violent can be legally "citizen arrested" and force can be used to stop their escape. This person is what many would categorize as "a direct and immediate threat to public safety."

The normal public relations line is "if you see this man, please call 911 and do not approach or pursue him." Which is all well and good until you saw the guy and you did exactly what you were told, like a good law abiding citizen, then that guy gets away, goes on to kill another person. Would you feel ethically or morally responsible for not taking action?

Let's just take a step back though, no one seriously expect you to go out looking for this guy, right? Do not go looking for some guy who has randomly killed an innocent person in broad daylight and definitely do nothing. That is just so much safer, there are people who are paid to do this type of thing, right? It is their responsibility to keep you safe, right?

Might as well sell all your firearms, delete your account here and take up golf, maybe subscribe to C. Jenner's blog while you are at it.
I volunteer with my local PD and FD. Citizen stuff. Weather, S&R, Traffic (parades), Emergency Comms (public events), etc.
If I got the request to support a manhunt, I'd saddle up. Certainly. Would they ever call me up for that? Unlikely.
What would I do, exactly, to search for this guy on my own?
Take a day off work and walk the street? In what city?
Nationwide Search and $50,000 Reward in Manhunt for Suspect in Fatal Shooting Shown on Facebook (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/us/steve-stephens-video-facebook-live.html)

The what if's pile up quick, if you want to play that game....
What if I engaged him and a bystander was killed in the crossfire?
What if I engaged him and I was killed in the shootout (bad skillz, no vest, whatever)?
What if I engaged him and he started shooting everyone around him?
How would I feel about that, compared to how I would feel if I did what I felt was within my competence to do and he got away and killed again later?

[blues]

This is beneath the level of discourse expected at PF.

I agree, Tom. It also troubles me that some folks who would pretend to hold others to a high standard of moral integrity and ethical correctness are not nearly as stringent when it comes to their own ethics and transparency when it comes how they transact business here and elsewhere.

Nothing worse than those who point fingers and yet do not have the courage of their own (alleged) convictions.

[blues]

I volunteer with my local PD and FD. Citizen stuff. Weather, S&R, Traffic (parades), Emergency Comms (public events), etc.
If I got the request to support a manhunt, I'd saddle up. Certainly. Would they ever call me up for that? Unlikely.
What would I do, exactly, to search for this guy on my own?
Take a day off work and walk the street? In what city?
Nationwide Search and $50,000 Reward in Manhunt for Suspect in Fatal Shooting Shown on Facebook (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/us/steve-stephens-video-facebook-live.html)

The what if's pile up quick, if you want to play that game....
What if I engaged him and a bystander was killed in the crossfire?
What if I engaged him and I was killed in the shootout (bad skillz, no vest, whatever)?
What if I engaged him and he started shooting everyone around him?
How would I feel about that, compared to how I would feel if I did what I felt was within my competence to do and he got away and killed again later?

What if you engaged him and had mistaken him for someone with a similar appearance?

[octagon]

I'm not getting into the do or don't questions and comments here but I believe information is important for considering choices and when law has a significant impact.

Legalities of citizen's arrest by state.

http://solutions-institute.org/tools/citizens-arrest-laws-by-state/

For Ohio where this started.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2935.04

And an example in PA involving a gun and gun owner.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Makes-Citizens-Arrest-With-Gun-Montgomery-County-210437051.html

Again this is food for thought information to hopefully make a more informed choice not me taking a side.

[Willard]

I agree, Tom. It also troubles me that some folks who would pretend to hold others to a high standard of moral integrity and ethical correctness are not nearly as stringent when it comes to their own ethics and transparency when it comes how they transact business here and elsewhere.

Nothing worse than those who point fingers and yet do not have the courage of their own (alleged) convictions.

Agreed. Posts like the ones quoted above (not yours Blues...the self-evident ones) are why I appreciate the ignore function.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

For clarity, and in the theoretical concept of colors, isn't white the presence of all colors.

Not to divert from this thread but that's not how the neurophysiology of color and perception of 'white' works. While it is true that standard white light (as from the sun) can be broken down into the entire visible spectrum (ROYGBIV), one only needs to mix together appropriate single wavelengths from the red, blue and green appearing regions of the visible light region to produce white. Newton demonstrated this and postulated that 'white' was a construct of the visual system and not a physical property by itself. Light is not 'colored'. Color is generated by the old world primate visual system. I could go into it in more depth but don't want to divert from this fun. I can explain why butter looks yellow on popcorn.

[Robinson]

I'm not getting into the do or don't questions and comments here but I believe information is important for considering choices and when law has a significant impact.

Legalities of citizen's arrest by state.

http://solutions-institute.org/tools/citizens-arrest-laws-by-state/

For Ohio where this started.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2935.04

And an example in PA involving a gun and gun owner.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Makes-Citizens-Arrest-With-Gun-Montgomery-County-210437051.html

Again this is food for thought information to hopefully make a more informed choice not me taking a side.

Regarding the Ohio law -- the incident in question was not a felony murder.

[Robinson]

Just an FYI, anyone with an active warrant for something like homicide and has actively shown their ability to be violent can be legally "citizen arrested" and force can be used to stop their escape. This person is what many would categorize as "a direct and immediate threat to public safety."

The normal public relations line is "if you see this man, please call 911 and do not approach or pursue him." Which is all well and good until you saw the guy and you did exactly what you were told, like a good law abiding citizen, then that guy gets away, goes on to kill another person. Would you feel ethically or morally responsible for not taking action?

Let's just take a step back though, no one seriously expect you to go out looking for this guy, right? Do not go looking for some guy who has randomly killed an innocent person in broad daylight and definitely do nothing. That is just so much safer, there are people who are paid to do this type of thing, right? It is their responsibility to keep you safe, right?

Might as well sell all your firearms, delete your account here and take up golf, maybe subscribe to C. Jenner's blog while you are at it.

Just because YOU would give a citizen a pat on the back for hunting down and killing this POS doesn't mean the LEGAL SYSTEM would. I would be hesitant not out of concern for my personal safety, but due to the very real risk of being arrested, going to jail, losing my job and my house, and my wife ending up in a very bad position if the DA doesn't see things the way you do. Hunting down a suspected criminal and killing them is not the same as seeing a deadly crime in progress and shooting that person in order to save someone's life.

[blues]

Just because YOU would give a citizen a pat on the back for hunting down and killing this POS doesn't mean the LEGAL SYSTEM would. I would be hesitant not out of concern for my personal safety, but due to the very real risk of being arrested, going to jail, losing my job and my house, and my wife ending up in a very bad position if the DA doesn't see things the way you do. Hunting down a suspected criminal and killing them is not the same as seeing a deadly crime in progress and shooting that person in order to save someone's life.

Parenthetical to this but somewhat germane...Back in the day when I lived and worked in NYC, oftentimes in concert with NYPD on various matters, they would occasionally hold town hall discussions of "peace officer" status for off-duty feds or sworn personnel from other departments.

Invariably, they would recommend, (absent exigent circumstances in which the die was pretty much cast), that the best and preferable course of action was to make a call to the PD and let them respond and handle the situation. And this was among sworn officers on both sides.

Now, not every agent or officer of another jurisdiction took their recommendations to heart but they provided some information that would encourage their brethren to heed the warning or be aware of the potential consequences.

[octagon]

Regarding the Ohio law -- the incident in question was not a felony murder.

I'm not sure what you are saying. All murders are a felony and the felony murder application where if any person dies during the commission of a felony is irrelevant and not mentioned in the OH law cited.

[NerdAlert]

Man this went south. I'm just going to file this all under the same place where I put all the WORL, TEOTWAWKI, SHTF nonsense. Suggesting that regular people round up a posse and go visit justice upon the evil ones without any regard for their own safety and family, without a legal safety net? Hmmkay. That makes about as much sense as strapping on a carbine and chest rig and manning a checkpoint at the entrance to your neighborhood in a natural disaster. Noble sounding? Sure. Possibly legal? Maybe. Something a thinking person with a family should ever do? Not on your life. If I felt a burning passion to hunt murderers and man vehicle interdiction checkpoints I would become a police officer.

I am really thankful for what the police do. To suggest that it isn't solely their responsibility or that anybody could and should be hunting folks like this kind of diminishes their sacrifice.


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[Robinson]

I'm not sure what you are saying. All murders are a felony and the felony murder application where if any person dies during the commission of a felony is irrelevant and not mentioned in the OH law cited.

Perhaps I am mistaken. But I believe a felony murder is murder committed during a felony crime, or that involves certain other factors such as killing of a Law Enforcement Officer. I had thought the murder we are discussing would be classified a state crime.

[octagon]

Perhaps I am mistaken. But I believe a felony murder is murder committed during a felony crime, or that involves certain other factors such as killing of a Law Enforcement Officer. I had thought the murder we are discussing would be classified a state crime.

You are not far off but it is a death that is related to a felony being committed and certain felonies depending on the jurisdiction and whether it is state or federally charged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

How you are implying it matters here I don't know. In the case in OH the taped incident was murder or at least suspected murder. Felony murder charges and acting upon them or not are not at issue. The links I presented were to address any citizen considering a citizen's arrest for the crime of murder which is a felony. Felony murder has nothing to do with it.

[NEPAKevin]

What if you engaged him and had mistaken him for someone with a similar appearance?

You mean like all the people who were lighting up the tip lines in California, Florida, etc. etc, ?

[blues]

You mean like all the people who were lighting up the tip lines in California, Florida, etc. etc, ?

I think you've mistaken me for someone who was aware of that. :p

[Hambo]

Man this went south.

Yeah. Skipping all the citizens arrest of violent felon BS, I thought the McDonalds staff went beyond just calling by trying to delay his order. Keeping a known murderer in line was pretty gutsy for people who flip burgers.

[45dotACP]

Yeah. Skipping all the citizens arrest of violent felon BS, I thought the McDonalds staff went beyond just calling by trying to delay his order. Keeping a known murderer in line was pretty gutsy for people who flip burgers.
Especially if he went on a mcnugget rampage...

Psychotic killers don't tend to follow logically delineated thought processes...Fuck with his big Mac and he might decide to go on Facebook again...

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[HCM]

Don't under estimate Ronald.

15781

[Robinson]

You are not far off but it is a death that is related to a felony being committed and certain felonies depending on the jurisdiction and whether it is state or federally charged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

How you are implying it matters here I don't know. In the case in OH the taped incident was murder or at least suspected murder. Felony murder charges and acting upon them or not are not at issue. The links I presented were to address any citizen considering a citizen's arrest for the crime of murder which is a felony. Felony murder has nothing to do with it.

The link to the Ohio law you posted mentions that a citizen may arrest and detain someone when a felony has been committed. I guess my mistake was thinking that a murder case that is handled by the state legal system is not a felony. I've read several sources stating that a murder is a state offense and is not a felony except in certain circumstances which we have both alluded to.

I am not a legal expert so I will just bow out now.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How does a civilian detain someone? If the person just decides to walk away - my 70 year old body isn't going to wrestle. My non-lawyer view of Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 is that my suspicion that you are the bad guy is not enough to blaze away at some guy who looks like the dude on the TV.

I also want to say - yeah - we all should carry guns and be trained, but I'm not criticizing a 75 year old for not being quick on the trigger when walking down the street. My 70 year old self does carry a real gun and practices and trains, etc. But if you don't - I'm not criticizing with some blame for not being in Condition Yellow. At this age, that's just condition of the front of my jockey shorts.

[octagon]

The link to the Ohio law you posted mentions that a citizen may arrest and detain someone when a felony has been committed. I guess my mistake was thinking that a murder case that is handled by the state legal system is not a felony. I've read several sources stating that a murder is a state offense and is not a felony except in certain circumstances which we have both alluded to.

I am not a legal expert so I will just bow out now.

No sweat. Lots of crimes are felonies but murder is always a felony. The felony murder is much cloudier depending on where and how involved a person is in the felony will dictate if the person falls under felony murder or not. We don't learn if we don't ask and just believe something. You didn't post something stupid just a little off from the law specifically related to the topic.

[Joe in PNG]

I don't have a CCW or carry a gun in order to enforce the law. I have a CCW and carry a gun in order to protect myself and my family.

If I drove up to the local Stop & Rob to get some Ptomaine Patties, and noticed Sumdood masked up and gun drawn inside, I'm NOT joining the party with gun drawn.
I'm leaving. I will call 911 on the way out, but I won't be there.

[Robinson]

No sweat. Lots of crimes are felonies but murder is always a felony. The felony murder is much cloudier depending on where and how involved a person is in the felony will dictate if the person falls under felony murder or not. We don't learn if we don't ask and just believe something. You didn't post something stupid just a little off from the law specifically related to the topic.

Actually I learned something from this that I should have known long ago and I'm glad I contributed somewhat to the thread drift. Thanks for hanging in there with me. I had long thought that Felony = Federal Crime and now I know that is not the case. Felony has its own definition not tied specifically to Federal law or jurisdiction.