Service Pistol Selection - (Help Me)-

[MD7305]

I have been given an assignment to help select my department's next handgun. This is an endeavor that I've never been involved in and I'm looking for any input or suggestion from those of you have completed such a process. Some background, my department consists of 28 officers (currently) and we are currently issued DA/SA Sig Sauer P229 .40 pistols carried in Safariland SSIII 070 holsters. Some of our recent hires are carrying P229Rs in Safariland 6360s. The oldest 229s repalced old S&W Mod.19s and are approximately 15 years old. The only instructions I've been given are to sort through the options available from different manufactures, stay with .40S&W, and no 1911s. No requirements for a specific configuration (DAO, Striker, DAK, LEM, DA/SA, etc) at this point. My administrator freely admits he does not favor Glocks but says he will respect any recommendations and results. I'm a Glock fan but I'm trying to be objective.

As of now I've been contacting the regional LE sales represenatives for some manufacturers. The following pistols and manufacturers are of interest:

-Glock 22 and 23 (Gen4)
-S&W M&Pf
-Sig 226 and 229
-HK P30 LEM
-Springfield Armory XDM 4.25 (my admin. likes XDs).

Some of the features that I believe will be of benefit are:
-Ambi-controls
-Night Sights
-Adjustable Grip Sizes adaptable to a variety of hand sizes.
-Relatively Simple Manual of Arms
-Easy to Maintain
-Safariland 6360 available for the model chosen.
-Possibility for WML

At this very early stage the plan is to aquire some T&E guns, allow some of our more and less proficient shooters try them out, rate them, and narrow the field down.

Ultimately the department would like to select a pistol that is reliable, durable, and works for the majority of our folks. The administrator wants some armorer training to go with the transisiton and money is NOT the driving factor but not blowing our wad is a goal too.

If any of you folks have a set policy on this matter I would really appreciate any info. If you can offer any guidance, suggestions, warnings I could certainly that help as well. Feel free to PM me.

Thanks!
Matt

[TGS]

Nix the XD ASAP. The XD has that silly grip safety which is easily not depressed during one-handed firing. In addition, if the grip safety breaks as some have, then the slide is locked forward and cannot be racked. This means the gun is stuck with a chambered round.

As to SIG, I'd be wary given their lackluster QC over the past few years.

I would personally say the P30 in LEM would be the best pistol, but I imagine that HK's prices and post-purchase support won't be very friendly for your department. I'm a bit of an HK fanboy, admittedly. I honestly don't think that a higher quality pistol is built today than HK's.

I think the M&P would be the best value for you to look at as I personally think the grip would be better for department issue vice the Glock, unless you're really hurting for funds, at which point the Glock would be king. Glock offered to replace Metro PD's Glock 17's(Washington DC) at $320 per unit, along with buying back their beat-ass Gen 1's (I think, they're old as dirt in any case) at $100 per unit. That means they were offered brand new Glock's at $220, along with the exemplary post-sale support. DC, being the cheap bastards they are, opted to keep their old Glocks.

You may want to PM the site creator, ToddG. He's done this professionally as a consultant to ATF's latest weapons procurement program of over $80mil, which according to his profile is the largest non-military weapons procurement in US history. Not sure if he'd be able to help you or not, but it's worth a PM.

[DocGKR]

"...my department consists of 28 officers (currently) and we are currently issued DA/SA Sig Sauer P229 .40 pistols carried in Safariland SSIII 070 holsters................The only instructions I've been given are to sort through the options available from different manufactures, stay with .40S&W, and no 1911s............Ultimately the department would like to select a pistol that is reliable, durable, and works for the majority of our folks. The administrator wants some armorer training to go with the transisiton and money is NOT the driving factor but not blowing our wad is a goal too."

Your agency is too small to run any sort of scientific pistol trial so you have to review and rely on what other larger agencies with greater resources have already discovered. The SA XD is an absolute no go--that is why NO significant LE agencies or U.S. military organizations use them. Given the above parameters, you have a very simple set of options--4th gen Glock 22 or S&W M&P40, with perhaps an outside nod to an HK P30. All three of these pistols offer adequate reliability and durability. The S&W and HK are the most adaptable to a wide range of hand sizes. The Glock is the easiest to service closely followed by the M&P; the HK is substantially harder to work on and only the largest agencies can afford to purchase the jigs and mounts that make servicing easier--on the other hand, the HK will probably require slightly less maintenance. The Glock and M&P have more readily available parts and accessories. The M&P comes with the option for a highly ergonomic safety--a feature which I personally prefer on a duty pistol.

[jlw]

I've been through this process a couple of times. I nixed the M&P40 in favor of the Glock 22 (had to go with .40SW unfortunately) due the lack of a distinctive reset in the M&P trigger. That was prior to Apex parts being available. If I had to make an agency purchase right now, I'd still go Glock unless S&W agreed to send my M&Ps with the Apex parts at no extra charge and consider them OEM pistol.

[Sparks2112]

Having shot the Glocks, M&P's and HK's pretty extensively I'd have to say the HKs are easilly the nicest of the group. They're also the most expensive and hardest to service. If you want to get an idea what they'd cost for the department send me a private message. I can get the LEO HKs and would be able to give you a price point using your 229s as a trade towards the P30's.

[Sparks2112]

On a side note HK has made LEM guns with frame mounted safeties. They are available if you know who to ask.

[Tamara]

-Springfield Armory XDM 4.25 (my admin. likes XDs).

Explain to your admin. that that's nice and all, but you like gun companies with Department Armorer programs and experience in supporting department-level purchases.

[KeeFus]

We just went through this to get rid of Hk's. Although slightly larger than you at 42 sworn our budget was almost nothing and the chief was less than interested in switching to a new platform due to budget constraints. When I presented this idea to the chief the response was that the costs had to be "cost neutral" for him to bite. I had to do a lot of leg work as well. We were getting ready to destroy a bunch of seized weapons. I had to get a Superior court judge to nix those orders and issue orders that would allow for us to sale/trade them. That saved us about $2200.00. Obviously the Hk trade saved us some money as well. I'd figure out what my budget was first then try to work within those parameters. Long story short: Glock wouldn't come off their price...S&W went out of their way to make us happy. We bought 48 S&W M&P 45's and 48 Safariland 6360 holsters for less than $300.00 which was about as cost neutral as you are gonna get it. When I made my final presentation to the chief/staff they were happy.

I know Glock & S&W will provide you with some T&E guns. We emailed everyone with the dates we would be at the range so that they could decide for themselves. You would be surprised how many people showed up outta 42...try less than 10! I'm a Glock fanboy and really wanted a G-21 again as my sidearm. Glock was "high-headed" (reps verbage...not mine) about the whole deal. Oh well, their loss.

If you shoot me a PM with your email I will gladly send you anything that I have that could help you in your process.

ETA: I would echo what everyone else says about the XD's. Not that you or anyone else should echo what other agencies are doing but I believe Mass and Vermont's State Police (http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/News/2011/12/16/Smith-Wesson-Converts-Two-State-Agencies-to-the-M-P-Pistol.aspx)are now in the process of switching over to the M&P series of pistols.

[Chuck Haggard]

You have to think of a duty weapons as a system. Gun X may be the best pistol ever built, but if it doesn't have factory armorer support, available parts, available holsters, and you can't get Sim guns to mimic your duty weapon, then it's a no-go.

I'd go with the Glocks with the default being the S&Ws. With both you can get quality holsters, parts, magazines, armorer classes and support, and airsoft guns for FoF training. The advantage that Glock has is the red reset guns and factory Sim guns, as well as cost per pistol typically.

I'd even say go with 9mms due to ammo cost but that obviously isn't going to happen.


My department is about 300 sworn, in 2006 we went through a similar process and eventually ended up with G17s.

[DocGKR]

Unless they have unusual circumstances or a huge supply of ammunition already in place, most LE agencies would be far better off issuing 9 mm pistols...

[KeeFus]

Unless they have unusual circumstances or a huge supply of ammunition already in place, most LE agencies would be far better off issuing 9 mm pistols...

+1! When were trolling for new weapons I asked about switching to 9mm. I was looked at like I had 3 eyes & octopus tentacles.

[ToddG]

Your agency is too small to run any sort of scientific pistol trial so you have to review and rely on what other larger agencies with greater resources have already discovered.

This. There is a reason why so many local agencies carry what the State Troopers carry, or why so many smaller departments buy whatever FBI has, etc.

There is no best gun or ideal gun. What matters most is that you can rely on the gun you choose to work when it needs to. Tests like the ones conducted by the FBI, ICE ('04), and ATF ('09) don't always pick the same gun. But they do show what guns worked.

My advice is to scrap any list of guns you think you like or want. Instead, write out a list of practical features that are necessary. Then make a second list of features that are desirable but not necessary (e.g., cops were killing people quite effectively before replaceable backstraps existed). Take guns that have passed a major LE endurance test and compare them to your list. Once you find the best fit on that matrix, contact some large current customers of that manufacturer and get feedback from FIs and armorers about how the guns really work in the field and how the company deals with them in terms of spare parts availability, repair/warranty issues, etc. Then if possible, find a few smaller departments like your own and ask those same questions. Some companies part the sea for big agencies but can't be bothered to return phone calls for 20-man PDs.

At the end of the day, this is going to lead you to the Glock, HK, SIG, and S&W. Some will have better reputations with LE agencies than others.

My advice is to narrow it down to two choices and then ask each of those companies for a T&E gun. Handle them, shoot them, have both your best and worst shooters in the department try them. See if there is a smart consensus and then make a choice.

[jlw]

We just went through this to get rid of Hk's. Although slightly larger than you at 42 sworn our budget was almost nothing and the chief was less than interested in switching to a new platform due to budget constraints. When I presented this idea to the chief the response was that the costs had to be "cost neutral" for him to bite. I had to do a lot of leg work as well. We were getting ready to destroy a bunch of seized weapons. I had to get a Superior court judge to nix those orders and issue orders that would allow for us to sale/trade them. That saved us about $2200.00. Obviously the Hk trade saved us some money as well. I'd figure out what my budget was first then try to work within those parameters. Long story short: Glock wouldn't come off their price...S&W went out of their way to make us happy. We bought 48 S&W M&P 45's and 48 Safariland 6360 holsters for less than $300.00 which was about as cost neutral as you are gonna get it. When I made my final presentation to the chief/staff they were happy.

I know Glock & S&W will provide you with some T&E guns. We emailed everyone with the dates we would be at the range so that they could decide for themselves. You would be surprised how many people showed up outta 42...try less than 10! I'm a Glock fanboy and really wanted a G-21 again as my sidearm. Glock was "high-headed" (reps verbage...not mine) about the whole deal. Oh well, their loss.

If you shoot me a PM with your email I will gladly send you anything that I have that could help you in your process.

ETA: I would echo what everyone else says about the XD's. Not that you or anyone else should echo what other agencies are doing but I believe Mass and Vermont's State Police (http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/News/2011/12/16/Smith-Wesson-Converts-Two-State-Agencies-to-the-M-P-Pistol.aspx)are now in the process of switching over to the M&P series of pistols.

In my experiences with agency purchases, there was no negotiation on the actual purchase price of the firearm. In fact, that price was set by state contract here. Where the negotiation occurred was over the trade value of the firearms we were trading. In one instance, there was a $100 difference in the trade value per pistol that one distributor was giving us versus what another quoted. That was some serious scratch considering the size of that agency.

Glock doesn't sell direct. They often have a rep on scene, but the actual transaction goes through a distributor. In their efforts to push the M&P, S&W has been active straight from the factory as of late. That wasn't the case in the early days of the M&P.

[KeeFus]

In my experiences with agency purchases, there was no negotiation on the actual purchase price of the firearm. In fact, that price was set by state contract here. Where the negotiation occurred was over the trade value of the firearms we were trading. In one instance, there was a $100 difference in the trade value per pistol that one distributor was giving us versus what another quoted. That was some serious scratch considering the size of that agency.

Glock doesn't sell direct. They often have a rep on scene, but the actual transaction goes through a distributor. In their efforts to push the M&P, S&W has been active straight from the factory as of late. That wasn't the case in the early days of the M&P.

Yea, I first contacted OMB guns in Kansas but they had stopped selling Glocks. They had been recommended by 2 other agencies as great to deal with. They sent me to a local guy that works for Glock who sent me to 2 other distributors. Craig's Firearms in Tn. was first then Ed's Public Safety in Ga. Ed's gave us the best price but the admin said no. Just under $5000.00 IIRC for the switch. I would go outta my way to deal with Ed's if I were looking for great prices on Glocks. The quotes between the two distributors I mentioned were worlds apart. For the M&P we went to Lawmen's In Raleigh. They were brought in by the admin and I had to deal with their rep. Other than having to wait for 7 months to get the M&P's it was pretty much a seemless transition.

Thus far I've gotten great responses from S&W's customer service. No problems what-so-ever and they seem genuinely interested in satisfying their customer.

[jlw]

Yea, I first contacted OMB guns in Kansas but they had stopped selling Glocks. They had been recommended by 2 other agencies as great to deal with. They sent me to a local guy that works for Glock who sent me to 2 other distributors. Craig's Firearms in Tn. was first then Ed's Public Safety in Ga. Ed's gave us the best price but the admin said no. Just under $5000.00 IIRC for the switch. I would go outta my way to deal with Ed's if I were looking for great prices on Glocks. The quotes between the two distributors I mentioned were worlds apart. For the M&P we went to Lawmen's In Raleigh. They were brought in by the admin and I had to deal with their rep. Other than having to wait for 7 months to get the M&P's it was pretty much a seemless transition.

Thus far I've gotten great responses from S&W's customer service. No problems what-so-ever and they seem genuinely interested in satisfying their customer.

Check you PM in a few.

We have a local S&W distributor who we would use if we ever went that route. We use them whenever we can. We have a sub-distributor available locally for Glock that would most likely get that business.

I've not had a problem with S&Ws warranty service, but I can't get the area rep to be responsive at all.

[MD7305]

Thanks for the advice, I will definently look to some of the larger agencies for information. I appologize if my initial post sounded naive but this is unchartered territory so I'm looking for any help I can get.

I think I'll probably get together with out firearms folks and set up a list of features and attributes of what we need. I'll try to search out some testing done by some major agencies. Are any of these selections or tests available online or would I need to contact agencies?

[jlw]

Thanks for the advice, I will definently look to some of the larger agencies for information. I appologize if my initial post sounded naive but this is unchartered territory so I'm looking for any help I can get.

I think I'll probably get together with out firearms folks and set up a list of features and attributes of what we need. I'll try to search out some testing done by some major agencies. Are any of these selections or tests available online or would I need to contact agencies?

There was nothing naive about your question.

[DocGKR]

Most valid testing is NOT available online...

[rsa-otc]

+1! When were trolling for new weapons I asked about switching to 9mm. I was looked at like I had 3 eyes & octopus tentacles.

Unfortunately in my experience most smaller agencies/departments choose their caliber in a less than scientific manner. Two that moved from 9mm to 45 acp, when I asked their reasoning for their choice, one said because a lot of their personnel were ex military and the Chief felt they would be happier with 45. The other case was right when the 40 S&W was catching on in Law Enforcement and some of the officers were pushing to change from 9mm to the new kid on the blok 40 S&W. The Chief at that time said if they were going to move they were going straight to 45 and not stopping in between with the 40. Now I'm a 45 fanboy, but given todays budget constraints and the fact there's admittedly little terminal differance between the rounds, your average street cop would be better off with 9mm for all the reasons we say on this forum.

[KeeFus]

Unfortunately in my experience most smaller agencies/departments choose their caliber in a less than scientific manner. Two that moved from 9mm to 45 acp, when I asked their reasoning for their choice, one said because a lot of their personnel were ex military and the Chief felt they would be happier with 45. The other case was right when the 40 S&W was catching on in Law Enforcement and some of the officers were pushing to change from 9mm to the new kid on the blok 40 S&W. The Chief at that time said if they were going to move they were going straight to 45 and not stopping in between with the 40. Now I'm a 45 fanboy, but given todays budget constraints and the fact there's admittedly little terminal differance between the rounds, your average street cop would be better off with 9mm for all the reasons we say on this forum.

Yeap, the 'good-ole boy' selection method seems like an appropriate title.

[jlw]

Without doubt the marketing mantra has convinced cops everywhere that the 9mm is not worthy of being a cop holster. I just don't get it.

[Tamara]

Without doubt the marketing mantra has convinced cops everywhere that the 9mm is not worthy of being a cop holster. I just don't get it.

I think half of it's marketing (How else are you going to sell new guns every five or ten years?) and part of it's the belief that, with the right death ray in the holster, all the various problems from bad training to plain bad luck can be mitigated.

I've sold .357SIG and .45GAP guns to small departments before and... well, actually, I didn't sell them; the chiefs had sold themselves before they even came in the door. It was as though, by getting the right caliber (and certainly no bitty nine is the right caliber) they were putting a force field around their guys.

[ToddG]

Without doubt the marketing mantra has convinced cops everywhere that the 9mm is not worthy of being a cop holster. I just don't get it.

Blame Glock.

No, it's true. When the '94 AWB came into existence, pre-ban Glock magazines became very valuable. And Glock found a fantastic source for them: the thousands of US LE agencies carrying G17s and G19s. They began a systematic program of "upgrading" departments into .40-cal guns -- same holster, same mag pouches, often straight one-for-one trades that cost the department absolutely nothing -- and in return they got much-worn rarely-shot 9mm Glocks and tons of pre-ban mags.

It was still an administrative headache for the department, of course, and many would be left with large caches of 9mm ammo. So Glock began the full court press that .40 was a zillion times "more deadlier" than 9mm.

Other companies got on the same bandwagon and before you knew it, almost everyone was willing to upsell a 9mm department (whether they had Glocks, Berettas, Smiths, or SIGs) to their .40-cal gun for next to nothing.

In turn, you had rank and file cops who know less about terminal ballistics than nuclear physics telling administrators that they needed more powerful guns! It became an easy and inexpensive way for FOP bosses, department chiefs, and firearms/training division guys to deliver something "new and improved" to the troops. Now, if you suggest they back down to the 9mm again, the fear is that an officer will die in an OIS where the BG doesn't die from a single 9mm hit, and that will get used as proof that the 9mm move was a mistake. Of course, if the same officer dies in an OIS where the BG doesn't die from a single .40-cal hit, they'll blame the ammo or the tactics or PCP but at least they know it wasn't the caliber.

That's not hyperbole. I've dealt with multiple dept/agency FIs who've recommended switching to 9mm to save money and improve qual scores and in every case it was shot down not because the Chief thought the 9mm was too wimpy but because it would affect morale and open them up to liability.

[jlw]

I think half of it's marketing (How else are you going to sell new guns every five or ten years?) and part of it's the belief that, with the right death ray in the holster, all the various problems from bad training to plain bad luck can be mitigated.

I've sold .357SIG and .45GAP guns to small departments before and... well, actually, I didn't sell them; the chiefs had sold themselves before they even came in the door. It was as though, by getting the right caliber (and certainly no bitty nine is the right caliber) they were putting a force field around their guys.

I do the purchases from the other side of the equation. At my previous employers, I was told from above that our new service pistol had to be .40SW simply because we had a supply of .40SW ammo on hand and, at that time, the SRT had .40SW MP-5s. The chief himself was a .45 ACP guy, but didn't want to have to stock multiple ammo types as well as having to buy a huge shipment of ammo right off the bat too. It was hard to argue with him as he was getting funding for new pistols, and there was a truth to his logic; so, those of us involved backed him on it 100%.

Keep in mind that the discussion at the above agency was whether or not to go to the ACP and not the 9mm. If I had tried to pitch to the troops that we were going to 9mm, or I tried it where I am now, they would have thought I was much more nuts than that they already knew to be true.


Blame Glock.

No, it's true. When the '94 AWB came into existence, pre-ban Glock magazines became very valuable. And Glock found a fantastic source for them: the thousands of US LE agencies carrying G17s and G19s. They began a systematic program of "upgrading" departments into .40-cal guns -- same holster, same mag pouches, often straight one-for-one trades that cost the department absolutely nothing -- and in return they got much-worn rarely-shot 9mm Glocks and tons of pre-ban mags.

It was still an administrative headache for the department, of course, and many would be left with large caches of 9mm ammo. So Glock began the full court press that .40 was a zillion times "more deadlier" than 9mm.

Other companies got on the same bandwagon and before you knew it, almost everyone was willing to upsell a 9mm department (whether they had Glocks, Berettas, Smiths, or SIGs) to their .40-cal gun for next to nothing.

In turn, you had rank and file cops who know less about terminal ballistics than nuclear physics telling administrators that they needed more powerful guns! It became an easy and inexpensive way for FOP bosses, department chiefs, and firearms/training division guys to deliver something "new and improved" to the troops. Now, if you suggest they back down to the 9mm again, the fear is that an officer will die in an OIS where the BG doesn't die from a single 9mm hit, and that will get used as proof that the 9mm move was a mistake. Of course, if the same officer dies in an OIS where the BG doesn't die from a single .40-cal hit, they'll blame the ammo or the tactics or PCP but at least they know it wasn't the caliber.

That's not hyperbole. I've dealt with multiple dept/agency FIs who've recommended switching to 9mm to save money and improve qual scores and in every case it was shot down not because the Chief thought the 9mm was too wimpy but because it would affect morale and open them up to liability.

I don't see where you can blame Glock alone. They were just more successful at it than the other makers who tried the same thing.

The profession as a whole has fully bought into the 9mm being inferior to the .40SW and that the .40SW is THE round for cops to carry.

[Tamara]

Blame Glock...

^ This is all truth. ^

Of course, now I'm idly wondering what the sales pitches were like back in the early '70s when the first reasonably-priced medium-frame .357s were hitting the streets. I vaguely remember, growing up in suburban ATL, the stink in the editorial columns in the late '70s-early '80s about how the poor, undergunned APD used .38 Spl while all the progressive suburban departments issued magnums... Or was it that the civilized APD used humane .38 Spl unlike the barbarians in the suburbs that issued magnums? I can't remember exactly. :o

[jlw]

^ This is all truth. ^

Of course, now I'm idly wondering what the sales pitches were like back in the early '70s when the first reasonably-priced medium-frame .357s were hitting the streets. I vaguely remember, growing up in suburban ATL, the stink in the editorial columns in the late '70s-early '80s about how the poor, undergunned APD used .38 Spl while all the progressive suburban departments issued magnums... Or was it that the civilized APD used humane .38 Spl unlike the barbarians in the suburbs that issued magnums? I can't remember exactly. :o

Reggie Pellets

That was the name for the .38Sp ammo that the APD was issuing back then. We have a captain that was a rookie cop with APD in those days, and he still speaks of Reggie Pellets with a mix of "you guys won't believe this" humor tinged with resentment.

Reggie was the first name of the chief that selected that ammo. I'll ask the captain exactly what they were. During that same time frame, a neighboring agency adopted the S&W 25-5 in .45 Colt and issued some sort of Winchester Silvertip ammo. They did allow personal carry of a smaller revolver for those who wanted to do so.

[jlw]

Just heard back from our captain, the neighboring agency I mentioned above as having adopted the .45 Colt had not yet done so and was issuing a .357mag hollow point at that time.

The Reggie Pellet as a lead round nose bullet somewhere around 100 grains in weight. It wouldn't penetrate car doors.

Reggie was Chief Reginald Evans who was appointed by Mayor Maynard Jackson.

ETA: Evans also revoked authorization to carry shotguns and rifles.

[Tamara]

Reggie Pellets

Yup. That's what they called 'em. I remember that from the AJC articles and columns.


During that same time frame, a neighboring agency adopted the S&W 25-5 in .45 Colt and issued some sort of Winchester Silvertip ammo. They did allow personal carry of a smaller revolver for those who wanted to do so.
Cobb County PD. You could tell the guys that carried them at a glance because they had speedloader holders the size of wastepaper baskets. :eek: (They kept those as late as... maybe... '87? '88? If I remember the story, they were copycatting the GSP?)

[jlw]

Yup. That's what they called 'em. I remember that from the AJC articles and columns.


Cobb County PD. You could tell the guys that carried them at a glance because they had speedloader holders the size of wastepaper baskets. :eek: (They kept those as late as... maybe... '87? '88? If I remember the story, they were copycatting the GSP?)

The agency I was referencing was the Dekalb County PD.

They switched to Beretta 92s when the switch to bottom feeders took place. They recently switched over to M&P40s.

[DocGKR]

IIRC, Nyeti's agency used to carry .45 Colt's early in his career--very few bad guys walked away from those hits...

[jlw]

IIRC, Nyeti's agency used to carry .45 Colt's early in his career--very few bad guys walked away from those hits...

I have been carrying a 22-4 in .45 ACP when in Class A uniform as of late, but I do have a 25-5 in .45 Colt that I will carry once I qualify with it. I have a cartridge loop for my duty belt that I will wear when carrying the 25-5.

[Al T.]

When I was stationed at Fort Mac, I remember the (IIRC) College Park guys switching to .40 in about '91 or so. First OIS they had with the fo-tay, the bad guy sucked up 11 hits and was DRT. :)

I talked to one guy (CPPD) who used to shoot pins with us about the incident. He claimed that the bad guy was stuck on a chain link fence and that the two officers could have stopped a bit sooner. :D

At least one of our large departments (Lexington County SD) has turned in all their Sigs and gone to the G17.

[MD7305]

Update....The Glock 22 Gen.4 is out of the running. Why might you ask? Ejection problems? Nope. Problems with a WML? Nope. Shooting to the left? Nope

Then why would it ever be not considered in the running for a duty gun replacement?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT TWO-TONE!!!!

:rolleyes:
FML.....I'm in service pistol hell. Do any agencies actually carry two-tone guns?



The quest continues.....

[Sparks2112]

Update....The Glock 22 Gen.4 is out of the running. Why might you ask? Ejection problems? Nope. Problems with a WML? Nope. Shooting to the left? Nope

Then why would it ever be not considered in the running for a duty gun replacement?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT TWO-TONE!!!!

:rolleyes:
FML.....I'm in service pistol hell. Do any agencies actually carry two-tone guns?



The quest continues.....

Fns9 or 40. Available in two-tone. And an excellent choice.

[ToddG]

BECAUSE IT'S NOT TWO-TONE!!!!

Wait. Your department requires two tone?

Wow. That may very well be the single stupidest service pistol requirement I've ever heard.

[MD7305]

Fns9 or 40. Available in two-tone. And an excellent choice.


We have an FNS-40 on its way to T&E. I'll be interested to see how it shoots. I have learned that Safariland is making ALS holsters for it now.

[MD7305]

Wait. Your department requires two tone?

Wow. That may very well be the single stupidest service pistol requirement I've ever heard.

Yeah, I know. This decision runs down hill as you might have guessed...

I even called our LE Glock Rep to see if Glock had any conceivable means for a two-tone gun and I was advised to buy them and call Robar, CCR, etc. which would actually put it in the same price range as a TT 226R. But, yeah, that's not going to happen. So, to my knowledge, the only options before us now are:

-Sig 226R
-Sig 229R
-FNS-40
-FNX-40
-S/A XDm-40

Am I leaving anything out?

At this point I'd give anything for Beretta to start cranking out 96G Elite IIs again!

Any guidance? So far our staff doing the T&E likes the 226R DA/SA with E2 grip. We have 229s (circa 1996) now so a 229R wouldn't be bad. I'm not sure about the FNS. I've handled them at LGSs and like the features BUT I'm fearful of adopting early, especially at the tune of 30 pieces.

[KeeFus]

Update....The Glock 22 Gen.4 is out of the running. Why might you ask? Ejection problems? Nope. Problems with a WML? Nope. Shooting to the left? Nope

Then why would it ever be not considered in the running for a duty gun replacement?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT TWO-TONE!!!!

:rolleyes:
FML.....I'm in service pistol hell. Do any agencies actually carry two-tone guns?



The quest continues.....

Damn! I thought our politics was bad. Sounds like someone just has a hard on for anything but Glocks. I was @ a LGS last week and saw some 2-tone Glocks, I believe they were 40's. I know FN makes the FNP in 2-tone and maybe even the FNS. I'd carry the FN FNS and never look back. Especially if I could get one without a safety. And, as already mentioned, Safariland now makes the 6360 for the FNS. Excellent duty holster. When we switched to them some folks were apprehensive because they were so used to the 070, which BTW, most of them failed to snap the rear retention snap on... Now they love them. Very easy to transition to them from other holsters.

ETA: BOM has a FNS for sale (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4273-FN-FNS-9-550-shipped-in-NM) on this forum. You may wanna send him a PM asking if there were any issues with it.

[Sparks2112]

Our copy of the fns9 has almost 4000 rounds through it now with zero failures. Only cleaned once so far. I'm impressed.

[Kimura]

Yeah, I know. This decision runs down hill as you might have guessed...

I even called our LE Glock Rep to see if Glock had any conceivable means for a two-tone gun and I was advised to buy them and call Robar, CCR, etc. which would actually put it in the same price range as a TT 226R. But, yeah, that's not going to happen. So, to my knowledge, the only options before us now are:

-Sig 226R
-Sig 229R
-FNS-40
-FNX-40
-S/A XDm-40

Am I leaving anything out?

At this point I'd give anything for Beretta to start cranking out 96G Elite IIs again!

Any guidance? So far our staff doing the T&E likes the 226R DA/SA with E2 grip. We have 229s (circa 1996) now so a 229R wouldn't be bad. I'm not sure about the FNS. I've handled them at LGSs and like the features BUT I'm fearful of adopting early, especially at the tune of 30 pieces.

How about this? Looks like they made a run for Cabelas. Maybe they'll just put a few more together for you. http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_782002_-1_757955_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

[Coyotesfan97]

Hmmm the chief likes XDs and the guns have to be two tone. Coincidence? Given the last list of choices your Chief has made your decision.

We did gun testing one time among Sigs, Glocks, and SW 4006s. SW was a dIstant third behind Glocks and Sig as the top choice. The asst chief chose SW because they would laser engrave our patch on them. Coincidently he received #s 1 and two in a presentation case....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kyle Reese]

Wait. Your department requires two tone?

Wow. That may very well be the single stupidest service pistol requirement I've ever heard.

Was any explanation given as to why they mandate this?

[MD7305]

This decision was made by command and entierly based on cosmetic reasons. I was essentially told our guns will be admired and look more expensive in two-tone. If it had something to do with a lubricating-style-nickel-boron coating that protected the gun I could understand it more but it doesn't. It's a personal preference that eliminates a lot of good guns from being considered.

I have found some Glocks online that have a NiB-x coating but the models seem to be limited and I'm sure availability is weak without the option of paying an LE agency price.

[10mm]

Out of the choices you have left the sigs look better than the rest.MI state police use them and there are plenty of BG's around,especially in the big cities.Too bad they won't let you get P-30's.

[Failure2Stop]

Update....The Glock 22 Gen.4 is out of the running. Why might you ask? Ejection problems? Nope. Problems with a WML? Nope. Shooting to the left? Nope

Then why would it ever be not considered in the running for a duty gun replacement?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT TWO-TONE!!!!


Somebody should be fucking fired for that.
The fact that a cosmetic preference will eliminate the PROVEN superior choices from the equation would result in an immediate face-tasering if I was present.
I shit you not in the slightest.

[JM Campbell]

EPIC SIG LINE F2S!!!!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Archimagirus]

I know at one point, I saw M&P's that were black and silver two toned. They had stainless slides and black frames. I would contact S&W and see if they could do that again for you. Cabelas also has the FDE and black M&P's, but I figured the boss wants silver and black.

[JRL]

Update....The Glock 22 Gen.4 is out of the running. Why might you ask? Ejection problems? Nope. Problems with a WML? Nope. Shooting to the left? Nope

Then why would it ever be not considered in the running for a duty gun replacement?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT TWO-TONE!!!!


http://www.lipseys.com/eImages/G22-Gen4-Flat-Dark-Earth.jpg

Problem? :p

[MD7305]

A silver slide was clarified...you know its totally embarrassing. I've put a lot of effort into this and used much of the info I've learned here but I'm getting no where. I'm "tunnel-visioned" on the Glock. I shoot, train, and study this stuff more than anyone at my dept. but at the end of the day my suggestion means nothing because it's not silver. It's frustrating. I don't know what to really do about it other than to continue with my evaluation and pick the best canidate pistol, turn in my report and let the powers that be make the choice.

To all the M&P suggestions, I contacted their rep in December and he emailed me some info and communication ceased. Ive sent several emails without answer and finally approached a distributor for a T&E gun. That was almost 5 months ago with no contact from S&W. They have been the worst company I've dealt with. Sig and Glock get a tie for best with FN close behind. Those companies have super helpful reps. Springfield Armory LE divison hasnt answered their phone for apparently 7 months, thankfully.

I've learned a lot so far, good and bad,

[jstyer]

Man... in my view, this is some serious gov. misappropriation shit. To discount a DUTY use weapon for COSMETIC reasons is some super high grade negligence in my book. I'm not the whistle blowing type by any means, but I would seriously think about raising some hell. Even if they didn't go with your personal pick (the glock) the fact that the appearance value of a particular finish is even being considered has me on level 10... This is total bullshit.

[xray 99]

I just saw an M&P full size 9mm at an LGS with a silver slide......I'm sure S&W would produce them for any agency.

[LGChris]

Dude, I'm really sorry you have to deal with this. It sounds like a nightmare. For what it's worth, you seem to be handling it better than I would be. At least you have some quality options still on the table.

The whole situation reminds me a lot of this fiasco that happened here in NC last year (http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/06/971004/ales-pricey-guns-prove-unreliable.html). The short version is that the head of the NC state alcoholic beverage control agency ordered new side arms for the agency every couple of years, apparently just so he and other agents could buy the old ones at a discounted price. And then right before he retired, he ordered expensive new Kimbers and took advantage of a rule that said you could get your last side arm at retirement for $1. And then the department had to ditch the Kimbers just months later because they didn't work properly (:eek:<---this is my surprised face).

This is my favorite line: "The Kimbers replaced Sig Sauer handguns bought in 2003 and 2005 for about $685 each. The Sig pistols, which Chandler said were worn out, were declared "surplus" and sold to agents for $326."

Chris

[FotoTomas]

Yup. That's what they called 'em. I remember that from the AJC articles and columns.


Cobb County PD. You could tell the guys that carried them at a glance because they had speedloader holders the size of wastepaper baskets. :eek: (They kept those as late as... maybe... '87? '88? If I remember the story, they were copycatting the GSP?)

As I recall the GSP, back in the early 80's, had private purchase Colt Trooper MKIII's and mostly Blue S&W Model 19's. Then GSP went to a State issued Revolver, the Smith & Wesson Model 66 with GSP badge roll marked on the side plate. Then I saw the transition to a Model 5906 type 9mm stainless semi-auto and then later heard they went to the Glock 22/27 dual gun issue. During all my days in GA back then working the road with GSP often being my only backup I never saw or heard about a GSP transition to the .45 revolver of any sort. Then again my experience was limited to middle GA and Southwest GA and I left the state in 89. When I went back for a couple of years in 95/96 I was out of LE full time and had little contact with the GSP.

Of course myself and several other small-town GA cops back then just HAD to have the 4" Model 29 as our belt gun. Mine lasted a week before I tried to qualify with it. It got parked real quick. :)

[FotoTomas]

The idea of a two tone requirement to me is absurd if only for cosmetic purposes. As a side note one agency I train with here in FL is the Volusia County Sheriff's Office. They issue the Glock 35 as the duty pistol. Plain dark tennifer is the color BUT the option of a silver finish two tone look is available if the individual deputy wants to pay for the coating/plating. I will have to ask their range master for the particulars as to where they are sent but many deputies pay the difference. The most common reason...It looks more intimidating when drawn.

Me...I prefer the darker versions as opposed to the pimp two tone style! :)

[ToddG]

The most common reason...It looks more intimidating when drawn.

Do they also carry Israeli style? I understand the sound of the slide racking and a round chambering is super-intimidating! :p

In all seriousness, except for the concern about bad finishes/plating affecting reliability and safety, I'm all for officers getting to select weapons they like. I had a roadside interaction with a deputy in Texas last year and he whipped out his Glock 21 to show me the awesome stippling job on it. If the combination of the stippling and the pride of ownership leads him to practice a little bit more and thus be a little better a shooter, I say go forth and conquer.

The idea of uniformity for all officers should have gone out the window when they started hiring women and realized they'd need different underoos.

(I am aware of the counter arguments, namely with regard to limiting the available options to reasonable guns and the costs involved with teaching, servicing, and maintaining a wide variety of brands and models)

[FotoTomas]

It truly scares me the level of ignorance that is displayed by those I teach or interact with. We try to train to a standard above the minimums but I still get the amazing comments from the rank and file that makes me wonder how they were hired in the first place.

[Johnkard]

I'd just like to put in a plug for Sig here. (glock is a better practical choice by far, but everybody already knows that...) I shoot a P226 .40 cal in USPSA, and when I need to, I carry a P226. It is comfortable to use, I personally have 100% confidence that it will fire every time I pull the trigger, and it's very accurate. BUT: the slide occasionally fails to lock back, the mags that came with it (from some american mec-gar knockoff) failed to feed after a slide lock with alarming regularity, and the price tag is high compared to a glock that would equal or exceed the P226's utility.

I am of the opinion that there needs to be a certain set of rules pertaining to an officer's choice of weapon. Were I (as a non leo with no experience armoring for a police department =) in your shoes, I would make a list of acceptable guns and a list of acceptable modifications and just let officers pick what they know (my list would be: Sig P226, P229, CZ 75 SP-01, Glock 22, and S&W M&P. they are all well supported and with the exception of the CZ, have many choices of holster available). At the same time, while I like the idea of raising the bar of officer familiarity and involvement with their weapon, the realist in me does not see officers actually taking the time necessary to get any major benefit over a department full of cheaper more reliable Glocks.

[CQC.45]

A silver slide was clarified...you know its totally embarrassing. I've put a lot of effort into this and used much of the info I've learned here but I'm getting no where. I'm "tunnel-visioned" on the Glock. I shoot, train, and study this stuff more than anyone at my dept. but at the end of the day my suggestion means nothing because it's not silver. It's frustrating. I don't know what to really do about it other than to continue with my evaluation and pick the best canidate pistol, turn in my report and let the powers that be make the choice.

To all the M&P suggestions, I contacted their rep in December and he emailed me some info and communication ceased. Ive sent several emails without answer and finally approached a distributor for a T&E gun. That was almost 5 months ago with no contact from S&W. They have been the worst company I've dealt with. Sig and Glock get a tie for best with FN close behind. Those companies have super helpful reps. Springfield Armory LE divison hasnt answered their phone for apparently 7 months, thankfully.

I've learned a lot so far, good and bad,

Not sure if there are any left, but those TALO edition Glocks (http://www.taloinc.com/glock.htm) had the Fail Zero slides. I own a G19 version (not because I particularly enjoy the color, just got it at a good price) and it runs fine. Not sure if it was a limited run though.

[MD7305]

UPDATE:
I went to the range with several officers, admins, etc. and everyone was afforded the opportunity to shoot the FNS-40, 226R, and G22. As a department that currently issues DA/SA Sigs the striker-fired FN and Glock were a big hit, especially with the weaker shooters. It was decided by command after shooting the striker guns and seeing how well folks were accepting and shooting with them that striker-fired guns would be focused on. The boss actually shot the Glock AND liked it. Amazing, just goes to show that trying something new sometimes opens new doors. Thankfully some requirements have been altered and now the Glock and FN are up for final consideration. All guns shot great and none experienced any issues. I'll try to keep the updates coming as the process continues.

[ToddG]

Awesome news and good job on opening some eyes. What kind of reliability/endurance testing are you intending to run the guns through? There are mountains of information about Glocks but I'm not aware of a major, serious LE or mil test on the FNS yet.

[MD7305]

As far as endurance testing, I'm admittedly at kind of a loss as what to do. Limited by budget there's no way we could perform a huge 20k+ round test. I realize the importance of reliability testing and with limited resources I approached it in the same manner I would as if it was my personal carry gun. I'm basically doing a 2000 round challenge along with allowing different shooters (in my presence) shoot the gun so I can document any issues, problems, etc. The Glock certainly has an advantage in that it's general performance has been tracked for nearly two decades by thousands of agencies , like the BATFE/DEA selection process, compared to the newborn FNS. There is little available info about the FN aside from what I've found on the Internet.

Todd, if you have any suggestions I value your opinion. Like you and Doc mentioned earlier in the thread, my small dept doesn't have the resources for a battery of scientific tests so any advice is welcome.

[ToddG]

I don't think the 2K Challenge is the best route for selecting a service pistol.

Do you have more than one sample of each available? And realistically, how many total rounds of ammo do you have to expend on testing?

Right off the bat I'd ask both companies to provide, results of any testing done by independent labs or agencies relating to reliability and durability including heat, cold, corrosion, and sand/particulate. I'd look at both companies warranties in terms of what is covered, for how long, and to what extent.

Get at least three references from departments of at least 500 sworn that issue the gun; call those guys and ask them point blank questions about what's gone right, what's gone wrong, how often they've had problems, and how the manufacturer responded. Ask them if their agencies did any testing and whether you can see the data. Keep in mind that these are probably the most positive, pro-manufacturer guys in the world... which is why they were chosen as references.

If FN isn't capable of listing three 500+ agencies that currently issue their gun, you need to consider whether you want your guys to be the field testers. It's a tough question. I'm sure there are a bunch of agencies that, twenty-something years ago, decided not to "risk it" with that new polymer Austrian gun and instead bought 3rd gen Smiths or Berettas or SIGs or something else ... only to wish they'd gone Glock when they had a chance. On the other hand, there are plenty of small agencies that decided to jump on the (XD, Sigma, etc.) bandwagon on day one only to learn their choice was suboptimal at best.

If I were selecting a gun for an agency and didn't have the ability to perform pretty rigorous testing, I'd be very cautious about being an early adopter. Even if it turns out the FNS is truly the next big thing in LE pistols, the gen4 G22 is a known quantity.

[MD7305]

Todd, thanks for replying. We're limited to about 2k rounds per gun, possibly 3k. We only have one pistol for each on hand. I fully realize that's a drop in the bucket. I don't believe we have the ability to perform a rigorous test so obviously we will have to rely on testing done by others.

[xray 99]

Homeland Security put pistols through a rigorous test and selected the SIG 229 DAK .40 and the HK P2000 .40. Were the protocal or results ever released to the public? Did DHS ever regret their choices?

[DakPara]

Just happened to be lurking here, and thought I would see if I could add to the conversation. I own a firearms manufacturer/dealer in Texas.

If you want two-tone Glocks, you can send them off to WMD to have the slides and barrels NIB-X coated. The cost is very reasonable (at least to my non-government limited eyes). I am probably not allowed to tell you the dealer price, but I am sure they would give you a deal.

We send Glocks to them for clients and the results are wonderful. I have been shooting Glocks (and many others) since 1986.

There are many advantages of Nickle Boron coatings (reliability, ease of cleaning, lubricity, more) and these guys have a lot of experience with the process on Glocks. I have no affiliation with WMD except I resell their services. And this would be my chosen path.

Sorry if this is presumptuous as a first post.

http://www.wmdguns.com/

[Comedian]

Based on Todd's input here, it seems like Glock or Smith & Wesson would likely be the best overall choice.

[MD7305]

After about 3 months of gathering data, bids, and compiling everything for my chief I turned in my recommendations. Based on the officer evaluations between the 226R, FNS, and G22 the Glock was the clear winner with a majority of votes. I anticipated having to negotiate the request for Glocks and all of the associated equipment but I was told "okay, get me some bids.". I was a bit shocked and disappointed I didn't ask for more mags, Reset Guns, and Sim Guns. The end result will be, per officer:

Glock 22 G4 w/ engraving.
Streamlight TLR1S
Safariland 6360 Basketweave
Safariland 6360 STX Tactical
Safariland 6378
Safariland Mag Carriers

A bid was accepted and now we wait for everything to arrive. My next goal is to get myself and a couple other guys in an armorer school and draft a transition curriculum for switching over which leads me to my next question/solicitation for information:

Anybody have a Glock transition lesson plan or suggestions on how to switch from DA/SA Sigs to striker fired Glocks? Specific drills?

[JBP55]

After about 3 months of gathering data, bids, and compiling everything for my chief I turned in my recommendations. Based on the officer evaluations between the 226R, FNS, and G22 the Glock was the clear winner with a majority of votes. I anticipated having to negotiate the request for Glocks and all of the associated equipment but I was told "okay, get me some bids.". I was a bit shocked and disappointed I didn't ask for more mags, Reset Guns, and Sim Guns. The end result will be, per officer:

Glock 22 G4 w/ engraving.
Streamlight TLR1S
Safariland 6360 Basketweave
Safariland 6360 STX Tactical
Safariland 6378
Safariland Mag Carriers

A bid was accepted and now we wait for everything to arrive. My next goal is to get myself and a couple other guys in an armorer school and draft a transition curriculum for switching over which leads me to my next question/solicitation for information:

Anybody have a Glock transition lesson plan or suggestions on how to switch from DA/SA Sigs to striker fired Glocks? Specific drills?

Louisiana State Police is using Glocks along with most Cities and Parishes in this area and they all went through a transition course when going from Sigs/Berreta's etc. to Glocks. You may want to contact the La. POST Council or C. A. R. T. A. Capital Area Regional Training Academy which is in the Baton Rouge area. Send a PM If you need contact numbers.

[DocGKR]

The directions to stick with .40 and not 9 mm were not logical...

[jon volk]

http://thunderthighsesdownsize.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/illogical.jpg

[MD7305]

The directions to stick with .40 and not 9 mm were not logical...

Doc, you're preaching to the chior. I voiced my opinion that 9mm would potentially increase proficiency and absolutely allow for more ammo in the budget due to reduced costs yielding more training/range time but it was denied. The trend in my area lately is to increase up to .45 Auto or go with .357Sig. The state uses .357Sig so in many administrator's minds that means it's awesome. There is not an agency that attends our regional academy that issues a 9mm gun, none. The vast majority are .40s, followed by .45s, and a sprinkling of .357Sig.

I personally prefer 9mm but for the last two years I've trained with and carried .40 to stay concurrent with issued equipment. I weep when I look at bulk 9mm prices when shopping for .40.

[Sparks2112]

And I've been considering carrying a .41 magnum lately. Go figure.

[mongooseman]

It truly scares me the level of ignorance that is displayed by those I teach or interact with. We try to train to a standard above the minimums but I still get the amazing comments from the rank and file that makes me wonder how they were hired in the first place.

In addition to the SOWEGA thing (Bainbridge, Cairo for me), we have something else in common.

As for the selection process, I believe a lot depends on the Rep assigned to your area. The current Glock guy showed up with a pile of guns and ammo, including G18's and basically said have fun. After getting a good deal on the rough frame Gen 3's, our uniform guys complained about the guns messing up their shirts (I lightly applied sandpaper to those tiny polymer points: problem solved). After enough crying and bitching, the officer tasked with procuring the new guns called the rep approximately two and a half months into the switch and asked for a good price on regular Gen 3 frames. He swapped our slightly used .40's for brand new Gen4 22's and 23's at no additional price. That, my friend , is customer service.
Compare the above to the rep of the brand we carried before switching: refused to provide a gun for T & E and basically blew us off. I liked the previous gun but was soured on them because of his attitude. Not enough money involved I guess.

I'd try Glock, S&W, and maybe Sig if I was looking to outfit a department nowadays.

[JBP55]

In addition to the SOWEGA thing (Bainbridge, Cairo for me), we have something else in common.

As for the selection process, I believe a lot depends on the Rep assigned to your area. The current Glock guy showed up with a pile of guns and ammo, including G18's and basically said have fun. After getting a good deal on the rough frame Gen 3's, our uniform guys complained about the guns messing up their shirts (I lightly applied sandpaper to those tiny polymer points: problem solved). After enough crying and bitching, the officer tasked with procuring the new guns called the rep approximately two and a half months into the switch and asked for a good price on regular Gen 3 frames. He swapped our slightly used .40's for brand new Gen4 22's and 23's at no additional price. That, my friend , is customer service.
Compare the above to the rep of the brand we carried before switching: refused to provide a gun for T & E and basically blew us off. I liked the previous gun but was soured on them because of his attitude. Not enough money involved I guess.

I'd try Glock, S&W, and maybe Sig if I was looking to outfit a department nowadays.


This is basically what happened with Louisiana State Police who was the first state agency to try the Gen 3 RTF2 G22/G17 Glocks.

[psalms144.1]

That's not hyperbole. I've dealt with multiple dept/agency FIs who've recommended switching to 9mm to save money and improve qual scores and in every case it was shot down not because the Chief thought the 9mm was too wimpy but because it would affect morale and open them up to liability.Prior to 2008, my agency had VERY lightly used P228s, but was issuing terrible 9mm JHP (think Federal 9MS "match" ammo). We came into a fairly large amount of money for new weapons/ammunition because someone way up the chain couldn't believe "we were still carrying 9mm - everyone knows it's not effective!"

I made a concerted pitch to take the money, buy a metric buttload of newer design, high performance 9mm JHP (maybe something to match the NATO Ball we're issued for OCONUS work), a bunch of replacement parts to repair/upgrade any 228s that were getting worn out; and sink the rest of the money into patrol rifles.

Of course, we ended up with P229R DAKs in .40. A bunch of us FIs suggested going to P2000s or G23s, but we were told that we "couldn't afford" to change holsters/mag pouches, etc. When I pointed out that the P229R wouldn't fit into our current leather gear, I was politely told to STFU.

So now, we have overweight, relatively capacity limited pistols that are hard to run well at speed due to a trigger that should be inflicted on every terrorist in the world. Thank God we have a liberal personal weapons policy...

Regards,

Kevin