MK319

[Unobtanium]

A lot of talk about MK318, but I'm buying a .308, and am curious about MK319. What data exists?


-Effective range of expansion/frag?
-Does it perform identical to the MK318, or does it behave differently, terminally?
-What kind of accuracy and actual velocity are people seeing (esp. from a 16" gun)?

Any other data/info?

[Ed L]

Hopefully I will have an answer about velocity from a 16" barrel this weekend.

[MisterHelix]

I have some related data points that may be useful. I loaded a thousand of the 130sost (mk319) projectiles in 300blk.

MV=2175
50 yard V (calculated) = 2033
100 yard V (calculated) = 1900

At 50 yards, informal testing yielded fragmentation, at 100 yards, basically an ice-pick hole.

So, one might estimate the minimum fragmentation velocity to be around 2000fps.

If you come across more empirical/reliable data, I'd be interested to see it.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

A lot of talk about MK318, but I'm buying a .308, and am curious about MK319. What data exists?


-Effective range of expansion/frag?
-Does it perform identical to the MK318, or does it behave differently, terminally?
-What kind of accuracy and actual velocity are people seeing (esp. from a 16" gun)?

Any other data/info?

I'm also very interested in any data you collect.. I did get to see a very non-scientific, noncompliant gel test of one round. It actually reminded me a lot of the 308win/110gr Horn TAP with a relatively short depth of max cavity 3.5-4 maybe 5 inches IIRC. Then a wound track that tappered down into a waddcutter like narrow track with overall very deep penitration. It was at least something like 20 inches.

This might sound studpid but I was seriously wondering about the projectile being loaded up in a 7.62x39 (or 300BLK) and fired from 14.5-16" AK. If at all possible and or even effective.

[Unobtanium]

I have some related data points that may be useful. I loaded a thousand of the 130sost (mk319) projectiles in 300blk.

MV=2175
50 yard V (calculated) = 2033
100 yard V (calculated) = 1900

At 50 yards, informal testing yielded fragmentation, at 100 yards, basically an ice-pick hole.

So, one might estimate the minimum fragmentation velocity to be around 2000fps.

If you come across more empirical/reliable data, I'd be interested to see it.

Shot into what medium?
So you presume to observe that it's "all or nothing", either it frags, or does not expand?

[MisterHelix]

No, I in no way presume that it's all-or-nothing, nor do I attest that my simple experiment constitutes valid empirical data regarding the mk319's projectile performance.

It was an admittedly unscientific backyard test into jugs of wet-packed shredded paper. If the exit hole looks to be about .30", well, I draw my own conclusions from that.

If you find my anecdotal information to be useless, unfounded, or inapplicable, discard or ignore it.

I couldn't locate any "official" performance envelope data for the mk319 projectile, and this amateur experiment was the best I could do with the resources at hand.

If you do find gel tests at pro-rated velocities to mimic maximum range, or manufacturer's specs regarding minimum velocity, I'd love to see it.

(Edit: a quick google search returned the following quote from DocGKR on M4C: "FWIW, the SOST designs will continue to exhibit some upset down to around 1900-2000 fps.")

[Unobtanium]

No, I in no way presume that it's all-or-nothing, nor do I attest that my simple experiment constitutes valid empirical data regarding the mk319's projectile performance.

It was an admittedly unscientific backyard test into jugs of wet-packed shredded paper. If the exit hole looks to be about .30", well, I draw my own conclusions from that.

If you find my anecdotal information to be useless, unfounded, or inapplicable, discard or ignore it.

I couldn't locate any "official" performance envelope data for the mk319 projectile, and this amateur experiment was the best I could do with the resources at hand.

If you do find gel tests at pro-rated velocities to mimic maximum range, or manufacturer's specs regarding minimum velocity, I'd love to see it.

(Edit: a quick google search returned the following quote from DocGKR on M4C: "FWIW, the SOST designs will continue to exhibit some upset down to around 1900-2000 fps.")

Good find. No, I just wanted to know more about your experiment, ty!

[Ed L]

When fired from a 16" barrel of a Knights SR-25 MK2 ECC velocities of this load ranged from 2803 feet per second to 2889 FPS:

Individual velocities of loads chronographed were:

2803
2889
2868
2844
2860

[Odin Bravo One]

I didn't see appreciable difference in bullet effectiveness between the 175 grain OTM and the Mk319 stuff.

[MisterHelix]

(Disregard, the following commentary is not really germane to the OP's question. Alas, there is no 'delete' button)



FWIW, if I were in a position to be issued a 13" SCAR (which I'm not)and was handed MK319 ammo, I'd be grateful that someone was making an effort to supply ammo that was tailored for that platform. If I were issued an m110 and the 175 smk, fine.

If I were a civilian looking for an optimal load for a 16"-20" AR10 or similar (which I am), I'd think that there would be any number of projectiles/loads that would be preferable, particularly if you handload. Lightweight monolithic bullets like the Barnes, medium weight bonded ballistic tips like the AccuBond, heavyweight frangible match projectiles like the A-Max, there's just a whole host of designs available.

[smithjd]

I shot five (5) rds of T762NB1 out of my 16" SCAR-17s on 08/26/2016 (so average summer weather here up north). The data:

2871.5
2867.3
2857.1
2861.2
2870.4

AVG = 2865.5; SD = 6.1; ES = 14.4

I know, small sample, but provides a good starting point. Based on an internet search, I think the G1 BC of that bullet is about .277.

[Unobtanium]

Accuracy?

[Ed L]

We only had the chance to fire two 5-shot groups at 100 yards. One was 2.25" and one was 2.5".

[Unobtanium]

We only had the chance to fire two 5-shot groups at 100 yards. One was 2.25" and one was 2.5".

How does this compare to other ammunition in this weapon?

[Unobtanium]

Any terminal ballistics observations?

[LDM]

Any terminal ballistics observations?
I have been focused on 308 terminal ballistics for a 16" FAL for the last couple of months.
I have shot 150 grain bullets for years and currently shoot 150 gr Nosler Accubonds and Ballistic Tips. But I am questioning that combo (150gr/16 ") based on some shots on deer that did not put them down as fast as I would have liked.
Muzzle velocity of the 125 -130 grain bullets is roughly 200 fps faster than 150 grain out of a 16" barrel. But even more particularly, at medium range, say 200-300 yards, you are getting right at the bottom of expansion and hydrostatic shock envelopes for a lot of 150 grain bullets and are still within those velocity envelopes for a lot of 125-130 grain bullets at that range. Past 300 yards, I'd prefer the 150 grain, probably the 155 grain Hornady AMAX to assure expansion. But frankly, I'd trade better performance out to 300 yards, than better performance past 300 yards.
Bullet selection is still pretty critical at or about that 2200 fps velocity, which is roughly 125/130 grain 16" velocities at or about 250-300 yards. I am thinking lighter/stouter, e.g. Nosler 125 gr Accubond, 125 gr SST Hornady
From what I've read, some of the above was a driving force in the selection and design of the Mk319.
I'd be curious what how others are seeing this issue.

[DocGKR]

What is "hydrostatic shock"?

[LDM]

What is "hydrostatic shock"?
Doc, you are the last person on this earth I will attempt to explain anything about ballistics to. I am probably the one who should be asking you that question

All I know from 45 years of deer hunting is when I shoot a deer with a decent rifle bullet with velocities at or higher than 2600-2800 fps, my observation is they tend to go down faster and stay down more of the time. Maybe "stun" is a better word? And being "stunned", they bleed out before they recover enough to get back up... most times that is, but not all.
Conversely, some deer I have shot at lower velocities will still expire from damage, but don't always go down at the point of the shot and go further before expiring.

I used to hunt with a Remington m700 police in 308 with 26" barrel. Same round out of a 16" FAL (which is what I now use in environment with less open shooting) does not put 'em down the same.

What do you recommend for a 308 out of a 16" barrel?

[JM Campbell]

Doc, you are the last person on this earth I will attempt to explain anything about ballistics to. I am probably the one who should be asking you that question

All I know from 45 years of deer hunting is when I shoot a deer with a decent rifle bullet with velocities at or higher than 2600-2800 fps, my observation is they tend to go down faster and stay down more of the time. Maybe "stun" is a better word? And being "stunned", they bleed out before they recover enough to get back up... most times that is, but not all.
Conversely, some deer I have shot at lower velocities will still expire from damage, but don't always go down at the point of the shot and go further before expiring.

I used to hunt with a Remington m700 police in 308 with 26" barrel. Same round out of a 16" FAL (which is what I now use in environment with less open shooting) does not put 'em down the same.

What do you recommend for a 308 out of a 16" barrel?

https://federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-rifle/f308fs2#1

This might do the trick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LDM]

[QUOTE=JM Campbell;600909]https://federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-rifle/f308fs2#1

This might do the trick.

I like the Fusion bullet. I use it in 223 for groundhogs.
I could not find the barrel length listed for the 165gr 2700 fps velocity, but typically manufacturers use at least 22" for their testing.
But I am only getting around 2550-2600 fps muzzle velocity with a 150 gr from a 16". I gotta go with a lighter bullet to get that velocity up.
Unfortunately the only 130 gr bullet Federal lists is a varmint bullet and I would think it too light a construction for penetration for my purpose.

[4gallonbucket]

I think the 125 grain Nosler Accubond would be right up your alley. I'd imagine you could get around 2950 fps with the right load out of your 16" barrel. I wouldn't trust it to expand under 2000-2100 fps though. Should get you easily past 300 yards on medium (deer/hog) game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Unobtanium]

[QUOTE=JM Campbell;600909]https://federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-rifle/f308fs2#1

This might do the trick.

I like the Fusion bullet. I use it in 223 for groundhogs.
I could not find the barrel length listed for the 165gr 2700 fps velocity, but typically manufacturers use at least 22" for their testing.
But I am only getting around 2550-2600 fps muzzle velocity with a 150 gr from a 16". I gotta go with a lighter bullet to get that velocity up.
Unfortunately the only 130 gr bullet Federal lists is a varmint bullet and I would think it too light a construction for penetration for my purpose.

That bullet from a 16" barrel is about 2500ish fps.
The issue is that I believe the BC to be 20% inflated, based on data I have available to me from those who have shot the GDSP's out to 4-500 yards and recorded velocities far and near. For example, the 150gr Gold Dot I sent for testing is listed as a BC of 0.414, and the results I got back were 0.332. It was shot along side a bullet that has been tested by Bryan Litz at 0.427, and the tester's data was 0.438. It was also fired along side MK319, which is listed at 0.277, and found in that session to be 0.296.

[LDM]

Thanks to Unob and 4gallon.
4gallon- Concur on expected velocity for 125 gr, the suitability of the Accubond, and the bottom of expansion threshold at 2000. Nosler website says expansion down to 1800 fps; but if I understand correctly, that is gel testing, i.e. shooting through uniform meat. BTW, I am from Aiken-Edgefield area of SC. That 700 Police was my beanfield rifle. Now I hunt in mountains of NC.
Unob- I hear you on that BC. A lot of data from manufacturers web sites I take to be sales pitch and not complete enough for folks who really take an interest and dig into this stuff. As previously stated, that difference in velocity from a shorter 308 barrel really makes bullet selection, and particularly expansion thresholds of the particular bullet, the difference between effective and unsatisfactory.

Still interested in and open to what others think.

[Unobtanium]

Thanks to Unob and 4gallon.
4gallon- Concur on expected velocity for 125 gr, the suitability of the Accubond, and the bottom of expansion threshold at 2000. Nosler website says expansion down to 1800 fps; but if I understand correctly, that is gel testing, i.e. shooting through uniform meat. BTW, I am from Aiken-Edgefield area of SC. That 700 Police was my beanfield rifle. Now I hunt in mountains of NC.
Unob- I hear you on that BC. A lot of data from manufacturers web sites I take to be sales pitch and not complete enough for folks who really take an interest and dig into this stuff. As previously stated, that difference in velocity from a shorter 308 barrel really makes bullet selection, and particularly expansion thresholds of the particular bullet, the difference between effective and unsatisfactory.

Still interested in and open to what others think.

150gr GDSP from a 16" barrel should be VERY EFFECTIVE out to 300 yards, and still show meaningful expansion out to about 400 yards, and a .30 caliber hole with some tumbling is still ugly at any distance...

Here is expansion testing in wet news print of other Gold Dot rounds at @1600fps impact velocity.
http://s610.photobucket.com/user/menarefrommars/media/GDvsPSPComparison_zps2054e63e.jpg.html
(Scrolling through the above photobucket is educational.)


The 155gr AMAX is a VERY viable solution that long range hunters have demonstrated to be effective down to about 1600ish fps or so. It should be leaving a 16" barrel (Hornady TAP) at around 2475fps, and has an actual (tested by Bryan Litz) BC of 0.424 G1. This places 1600 fps at a shade under 500 yards. The issue with AMAX is tip deformation/breaking off in a semi-automatic weapon.

[LDM]

Here is expansion testing in wet news print of other Gold Dot rounds at @1600fps impact velocity.
http://s610.photobucket.com/user/menarefrommars/media/GDvsPSPComparison_zps2054e63e.jpg.html
(Scrolling through the above photobucket is educational.)

Thanks for that info. Those photos are the kind of practical and applicable info needed to make an informed choice. I just wish the manufacturers would provide that on a routine basis. The fact they don't is perhaps a message about their product.
Understand the Hornady SST has a good range of expansion velocities as well, reportedly down to 1600.

[Unobtanium]

Thanks for that info. Those photos are the kind of practical and applicable info needed to make an informed choice. I just wish the manufacturers would provide that on a routine basis. The fact they don't is perhaps a message about their product.
Understand the Hornady SST has a good range of expansion velocities as well, reportedly down to 1600.

The consensus is that the SST is the reason the AMAX is no longer advertised for game. Sales reasons.

[DocGKR]

I am just a dentist.

As such, I recommend projectiles that do not leave fragments in game animals that will consumed by humans.

For a 16" .308, the 150 gr Speer Gold Dot (or similar Fusion) is a good option. There are numerous other acceptable choices, depending on the task at hand.

For shots around 300 and closer on thin skinned game like deer, several possibilities include projectiles like:

-- Barnes makes 110 gr and 130 gr TSX & TTSX projectiles.

-- Hornady offers 110 & 125 gr GMX projectiles.

-- Nosler has the 125 gr Accubond.

[Ed L]

DocGKR,

I would be interested in hearing what you think of the MK319.

[Unobtanium]

I am just a dentist.

As such, I recommend projectiles that do not leave fragments in game animals that will consumed by humans.

For a 16" .308, the 150 gr Speer Gold Dot (or similar Fusion) is a good option. There are numerous other acceptable choices, depending on the task at hand.

For shots around 300 and closer on thin skinned game like deer, several possibilities include projectiles like:

-- Barnes makes 110 gr and 130 gr TSX & TTSX projectiles.

-- Hornady offers 110 & 125 gr GMX projectiles.

-- Nosler has the 125 gr Accubond.

The more experience I get with the Gold Dot rounds, the more I like them. Very accurate and precise. I am trying to dig further into the tested BC vs. advertised BC discrepancies I am getting for this round.

The SST/AMAX rounds are being pushed for "long range" hunting. I agree fully on avoiding frags in meat I will eat, but the fragmenting rounds drop game reliably at distances that other rounds pencil/tumble only on, which is why I mentioned them.

I will second Ed L, and inquire as to your opinion on MK319's terminal effects, especially the minimal velocity at which it will reliably do more than M80 ball. I also would like to know if it expands, or over-expands?

Part of the testing that was done on it in wet news print showed that it does not expand, but rather, that it tumbles, and frags. The nose section remains in-tact, per the shooter, which is how the conclusion was reached. I do not vouch for or against it. I'd like to know what it does on living things and gel.

[LDM]

At this point I think what I will try for my objectives is 125 gr Nosler Accubonds for hunting and 125 gr Nosler Ballistic tips for practice. These two bullets shoot to the same POI with the same load.
If there were not the potential issue of lead contamination of meat from bullet fragmentation, I would probably go with the 125gr Hornady SST. This position may be an overabundance of caution. The SST has the interlocking ring construction to help hold it together and my velocities will not be that high. And it has a cannelure, which I like for a semi auto (particularly the FAL, which can be rough on bullet tips)
But I am shooting Nosler now and have for years, so that tips the scales.