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irishshooter
12-21-2011, 11:52 AM
what do most people consider good to great to excellent times for: draw to first round; reload from slide lock; splits? thanks

JV_
12-21-2011, 12:15 PM
For those numbers to be somewhat meaningful, you need to also discuss:

Target size
Distance
Concealment

MechEng
12-21-2011, 01:47 PM
I’m curious. Say...
Target size: 8” Circle
Distance: 7 yards
Concealed: Yes, AIWB & Strong side hip

irishshooter
12-21-2011, 02:19 PM
what MechEng said :)

Kevin B.
12-21-2011, 02:31 PM
One round from the holster:

Good: 1.5
Great: 1.25
Awesome: 1.0


Slidelock Reload:

Good: 2.25
Great: 2.00
Awesome: 1.75


Splits:

Good: .30
Great: .25
Awesome: .20

ToddG
12-21-2011, 02:35 PM
First, you need to be talking about consistent, not just "best run of the day" or "best run of my life" times.

Draw from concealment to 8" @ 7yd
Good: <2 sec
Very Good: <1.5 sec
Excellent: <1 sec
FWIW, I'm generally in the 1.15-1.25 range when I'm warmed up.

Reload from last shot fired to 8" @ 7yd, mag concealed
Good: <3 sec
Very Good: <2 sec
Excellent: <1.50 sec
FWIW, I'm generally in the 1.7-1.9 range when I'm warmed up.

Splits are too hard to quantify. The speed at which someone can put up a single split (hammering two rounds with one sight picture) is meaningless to me but it's the number most people use to measure their splits. Sustainable rate of accurate fire matters to me, and that depends on a lot of factors. For something like a Bill Drill, I'd probably start with .35/.25/.20 as my numbers and adjust as equipment and other circumstances dictate.

YVK
12-21-2011, 02:48 PM
FAST drill under 5 sec: 1.5/0.4/2.0/0.25/0.25/0.25. Excellent.
FAST drill under 6 sec: 2.0/0.5/2.5/0.3/0.3/0.3. Great.
FAST drill under 7 sec: 2.3/0.7/2.7/0.4/0.4/0.4. Good.

That's my breakdown on draw on small target, slidelock reload, splits on big and small target s at 7 yards. The numbers to me represent even performance on each level, without one part compensating for another. While concealment affects ability to meet the standards, it shouldn't affecct how they are defined.

ToddG
12-21-2011, 02:50 PM
Some of you guys have an incredibly high standard for "good."

JV_
12-21-2011, 02:59 PM
Some of you guys have an incredibly high standard for "good."I was thinking the same thing.

lcarr
12-21-2011, 04:28 PM
Draw from concealment to 8" @ 7yd
Good: <2 sec
Very Good: <1.5 sec
Excellent: <1 sec
FWIW, I'm generally in the 1.15-1.25 range when I'm warmed up.


One second, to an IPSC A zone at 7 yards, is world class from an _un_concealed _race_ holster. (Some guys get down to 0.8 by scooping, taking a bigger risk with their grip.) If someone tells me that they have a subsecond concealed draw, my first reaction is "show me."

Lincoln

ToddG
12-21-2011, 05:17 PM
If someone tells me that they have a subsecond concealed draw, my first reaction is "show me."

I've done it before, including in front of students ... AIWB with an untucked polo. As I said, there's a difference between on-demand and "best ever." But I certainly don't think sub-second is impossible.

lcarr
12-21-2011, 05:41 PM
I've done it before, including in front of students ... AIWB with an untucked polo. As I said, there's a difference between on-demand and "best ever." But I certainly don't think sub-second is impossible.

I apologize if I implied that it was impossible. What I meant to say is that it is something achievable by the best shooters. If one were to tell me that Dave Sevigny routinely does subsecond concealed draws, I would have no trouble believing it. If you, who I know practices 50,000+ rounds per year, say you can do it on a good day, I have no trouble believing it. If some random person on an internet board told me they could do it on demand, I would be very, very, very skeptical.

Since I took the original poster seemed to be someone just starting out and asking about realistic times, I just wanted to point out what you labeled as "excellent" is "world class," i.e., what one would expect from top-level competitive shooters.

On the internet, everyone makes $1,000,000 a year, makes love to supermodels, and has a 1sec draw. :D

Lincoln

irishshooter
12-21-2011, 06:05 PM
On the internet, everyone makes $1,000,000 a year, makes love to supermodels, and has a 1sec draw. :D

Lincoln



i'll take a pay cut to $500,000 a year and keep the last two as they are :D

jetfire
12-21-2011, 06:39 PM
On the topic of the 1 second draw: I've done it, but like Todd said it's nothing something I can just up and do on demand at any time. But more so, I don't worry about it because it's honestly not that important. In a 10-15 stage match, having a 1.00 second draw versus a 1.20 second draw is going to save you 2, maybe 3 seconds total match time. On the other hand, shaving time off your reloads and splits and setting up in shooting boxes is going to save you tons of time over the course of 18-30 round courses of fire. In an average USPSA match shooting Prod or L10 I'll reload 2-4 times per stage, but I'll only draw once. I'll have up to 16 transitions, possibly more if there's steel and usually 2-6 shooting positions. So if I want to cut big swaths of time off my score, I'll focus on the high value skills like transitions or setting up in a shooting position.

Now, the draw is more important in IDPA where things are compressed, especially on speed shoot stages of 6 or less rounds.

Mr_White
12-21-2011, 06:42 PM
One second, to an IPSC A zone at 7 yards, is world class from an _un_concealed _race_ holster. (Some guys get down to 0.8 by scooping, taking a bigger risk with their grip.) If someone tells me that they have a subsecond concealed draw, my first reaction is "show me."

Lincoln

I don't have a lot of perspective on this because my competition experience is currently limited to GSSF. I am trying to get started in USPSA in 2012.

1.2 seconds was about the fastest I could get good hits at 7 yards drawing from a concealed strong side IWB holster (G17) before I switched to AIWB.

Here is me shooting five Bill Drills with a stock Gen3 G34 concealed AIWB under a closed-front shirt:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3B9qch_QIw

Four of the five runs have first shot times under a second. If I recall correctly, one of the first shots was outside the -0 zone. The other dropped shots were from subsequent shots.

That video was my attempt to shoot five Bill Drills without dropping any shots, but still being emotionally attached to shooting sub-2 second Bill Drills from concealment and not wanting to slow down, but also not getting better results from slowing a little either. In the attempt at shooting it totally clean, I was being slightly more careful on the first shot than I might have otherwise.

At this point, for me drawing from AIWB concealed, with hands hanging naturally at sides (other start positions are slightly slower for me), I can get down to about .8x in live fire. But that's either a particularly good rep or if I force it, I am rolling the dice with accuracy a bit. I can draw and hit an A or -0 zone at 7 yards pretty reliably usually at .9x. If I really, really push to go as fast as I can make myself go, it can impinge into .7x territory, but frankly the hits are unreliable at 7 yards, and I generally have to be warmed up before I break .8 at all. If I'm totally cold, it's often between .9x and 1.1 - basically either side of one second. And if I feel very stressed, because of peers, friends, students, a test, whatever, figure on adding .1 to everything I said above, though I am learning to handle that better.

I've worked very hard to have this drawstroke. It isn't perfect, and I went about building it in an imperfect way. It's changed a little since I made the Bill Drill video too. I fell into the trap of thinking I might be able to duplicate my dry fire times in live fire (.70 all day long once warmed up, personal best of .56.) But as much as I wanted them to, those times simply did not hold up in live fire. Times were slower and hits not reliable enough. And heed my warning here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2513-Practice-Question&p=40898&viewfull=1#post40898

JodyH
12-21-2011, 07:18 PM
I can crank out a <1 sec. draw to 7 yard A-zone from AIWB concealed under a T-shirt but it's pure index shooting with no sight verification (and about a 75% hit rate), my "old reliable 100%" is <1.5 (usually a 1.35).
Bill Drill splits are around .23-.25 with a LEM trigger.

Kevin B.
12-21-2011, 07:53 PM
Some of you guys have an incredibly high standard for "good."

Probably, but I do not necessarily consider that a bad thing.

ToddG
12-22-2011, 11:34 AM
Since I took the original poster seemed to be someone just starting out and asking about realistic times, I just wanted to point out what you labeled as "excellent" is "world class," i.e., what one would expect from top-level competitive shooters.

That's a very fair statement. As I said earlier, I was surprised how many people defined "good" at such a high level. So for clarity's sake, my numbers were based on:

Good... someone who has a solid grasp of fundamentals and has practiced enough to be smooth at speed. I think these numbers are achievable by people without having to shoot thousands of rounds per month.

Very Good... the serious shooter who focuses real time and money on his shooting, breaking down the smaller aspects of

Excellent... achievable by someone who lives and breathes shooting. Maybe not the top of the mountain, but close enough to throw rocks at the guys on the summit.


Now, the draw is more important in IDPA where things are compressed, especially on speed shoot stages of 6 or less rounds.

And in real life...

Jay Cunningham
12-22-2011, 12:49 PM
Without *trying* to found like a dick here, it's easy to post up killer standards on the Internet to imply how awesome of a shooter you are and how much higher your own personal standards are compared to the masses.

After all - nobody ever seems to throw a shot out of the black on the Internet.

(p.s. I'm not calling anyone out in this thread, so relax.)

Mr_White
12-22-2011, 01:30 PM
That's a very fair statement. As I said earlier, I was surprised how many people defined "good" at such a high level. So for clarity's sake, my numbers were based on:

Good... someone who has a solid grasp of fundamentals and has practiced enough to be smooth at speed. I think these numbers are achievable by people without having to shoot thousands of rounds per month.

Very Good... the serious shooter who focuses real time and money on his shooting, breaking down the smaller aspects of

Excellent... achievable by someone who lives and breathes shooting. Maybe not the top of the mountain, but close enough to throw rocks at the guys on the summit.



And in real life...

I like the way you define Good, Very Good, and Excellent. Especially the part about being close enough to the top of the mountain to throw rocks at the guys on the summit. That's great!

Concur on the importance of draw for real life, which is why I have spent a ridiculous disproportionate amount of time on mine.

Mr_White
12-22-2011, 01:33 PM
Draw from concealment to 8" @ 7yd
Good: <2 sec
Very Good: <1.5 sec
Excellent: <1 sec

Reload from last shot fired to 8" @ 7yd, mag concealed
Good: <3 sec
Very Good: <2 sec
Excellent: <1.50 sec


Splits are too hard to quantify. The speed at which someone can put up a single split (hammering two rounds with one sight picture) is meaningless to me but it's the number most people use to measure their splits. Sustainable rate of accurate fire matters to me, and that depends on a lot of factors. For something like a Bill Drill, I'd probably start with .35/.25/.20 as my numbers and adjust as equipment and other circumstances dictate.

I didn't do a good job responding to the OP before - rather I responded to the side discussion on <1 second draws.

Although I might have picked different titles for the standards set forth above than Todd did, I very much agree with the numbers he expressed.

MechEng
12-22-2011, 01:55 PM
Some of you guys have an incredibly high standard for "good."

Maybe they aspire to be like Jelly Brice (http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html).

jetfire
12-22-2011, 02:11 PM
Speaking of shooting goals, I finally got around to writing mine down.

353

Please note, BJ is a good friend of mine, and we bust each other's chops about being hobbits/midgets/short people all the time.

JodyH
12-22-2011, 02:32 PM
Concur on the importance of draw for real life, which is why I have spent a ridiculous disproportionate amount of time on mine.
newly inspired thread:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2531-Importance-of-a-fast-draw-in-self-defense&p=41067#post41067

ToddG
12-22-2011, 03:28 PM
353


Seems to me you achieved the first four during Season 1 of Top Shot. :cool:

Come on... someone had to say it!

jetfire
12-22-2011, 04:07 PM
Seems to me you achieved the first four during Season 1 of Top Shot. :cool:

Come on... someone had to say it!

354

Kevin B.
12-22-2011, 06:38 PM
I had no idea that having high standards was such a bad thing.

Where I come from, you are held to a high standard, you hold yourself to a higher standard and you bust your ass to meet them both. If you come up short (and everybody does occassionally), you work harder. It may skew your definition of "good" but it rarely does so to anyone's detriment. In fact, I have found that people who depend on you typically benefit when you hold yourself to a high standard.

Consider me educated.

jar
12-22-2011, 07:43 PM
I had no idea that having high standards was such a bad thing.

Where I come from, you are held to a high standard, you hold yourself to a higher standard and you bust your ass to meet them both. If you come up short (and everybody does occassionally), you work harder. It may skew your definition of "good" but it rarely does so to anyone's detriment. In fact, I have found that people who depend on you typically benefit when you hold yourself to a high standard.

Consider me educated.

I think Todd's point is that some of the standards posted have an IMMENSE gap from Joe Blow average gun owner to 'good'. They're probably fine for the average member here, but the people who take the time to read and post here are a pretty select group. By YVK's FAST standards, I'm almost to good. I generally finish in the top half to top third at USPSA matches and the top 10-20% at IDPA.

ToddG
12-23-2011, 12:19 AM
I had no idea that having high standards was such a bad thing.

WTF?

No one said you cannot hold yourself or others to a high standard. Give me a shout when you can do all the stuff at the speeds I listed as "excellent," on demand, from concealment.

However, standards need to be rational. Asking someone who doesn't/won't/can't practice every week to meet the same standard as someone who shoots 50k a year isn't being tough, it's being unrealistic. Instead of just telling them they suck, I'd rather offer them a goal they should be able to achieve with hard work at the level they're able to commit. There's absolutely nothing that says they can't make a greater commitment and aim for a higher standard.

YVK
12-23-2011, 05:31 AM
In just about any sport or discipline I've had experience with, the curve to the top is not straight. It is exponentially harder to get to the next level. 4.0 tennis player looks good on a court, but is unlikely to beat 4.5 player, will not take a game off 5.0 player, and 5.5s can hang with pros. I can give multiple other examples. Perceived or real large jumps will always be there and will seem unattainable to those of us at lower levels.
then there are different criteria. OP asked about draw from concealment, slide lock reload etc. Based on my huge experience of a whole one USPSA match, there was one guy out of 40 drawing from concealment (myself) and slidelock reload shouldn't be happening for those who want to win. I finished in a bottom half, even though I now get sub-7 FASTs fairly regularly. This goes to say that different gradation systems are based on different skill sets.
In the context of an original post, I stand by my own initial opinion.

Kevin B.
12-23-2011, 08:47 AM
Todd,

PM sent.