Best drill for improving draw/first shot time?

[John Ralston]

I will never be lightning fast, but I seem to be stuck on this issue. From under an untucked T-Shirt, Draw & Fire an AIMED shot at an 6" Circle at 3 yds - 1.6 Sec (consisitent). I beat it occassionally, but would like to do it consistently. Right now I do lots of dry fire practice with snap caps in the gun, but I am not improving (I use the Par Time function on the timer).

Is there a drill that you guys might suggest or is this one of those cases of practice, practice, practice and hope it improves?

I don't think 1.6 is terrible, but as has been mentioned before - you can't bee too fast in a gun fight!

[LittleLebowski]

My take on this is an index card (3x5) at 25'. I'm stuck at 1.3-1.4 seconds from concealment as timed by VMI-MO.

What i have found that helps is the press out. As you are bringing that pistol up into your workspace (in you field of vision, directly in front of you, and I'm sure I'm explaining this wrong but that's why we have SMEs), catch sight of that front sight right there, and follow it with your eyes as you press out the pistol in a linear, roughly horizontal fashion to full extension. Saves you time versus swinging it up and acquiring the sights in my experience.

[TCinVA]

Aside from ensuring that your draw has no wasted movement, pauses, or anything of that nature, the greatest gain you'll see in improving your time is likely to be working on the press out.

The term "press out" refers to the act of bringing the weapon's sights up into your line of sight as soon as possible and then in a deliberate and controlled fashion pressing the pistol out toward the target while simultaneously refining your sight picture and manipulating the trigger. Todd did a writeup about the press out on his blog:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3899

The best way to practice the press-out is with the slow press-out shown in the video of Todd's blog...your goal is to train your brain to look for the sights early, align them, and manipulate the trigger while the gun is presented to the target. Practicing it nice and slow helps get you used to doing all of that at once. I practice press-outs every time I go to the range. I practice on 2" circles at 7 yards and I range from 1.6-1.8 seconds from concealment.

To really improve it's likely that you'll need to reevaluate everything you are doing with the draw and shot. The key to a fast draw is to know what to do fast and what to do right. It's an efficiency game. If you do everything as fast as possible, it won't be efficient. If you do the important bits as efficiently as possible it may "feel" slower because you aren't completely out of control (that feeling is mistaken for speed by a lot of folks), but the end result will be a faster hit on target.

[beltjones]

The key to speed is economy of movement. If you know the basic fundamentals of the draw, a good idea is to draw, with and without a timer, in front of a mirror (use an unloaded gun, obviously). Look for anything other than your arms that is moving, and keep it still (no head movement, no shoulder movement, no hip movement, etc). Make sure your arms are moving in the most efficient way possible (directly to the gun, directly to the grip, and directly to the target). Start slow and build up smoothness while staying as efficient as possible. Eventually you will be moving fast, but it will still feel like you're going slow. That's a good thing.

Next, move on from the mirror, and practice drawing to a target. Keep that same smooth, efficient movement, and work on getting your eyes to the front sight as soon as possible. Eventually your hand/eye coordination will be developed to the point that your eyes will "guide" your front sight onto the target without conscious thought, but it takes a lot of correct repetitions.

Once you're comfortable that your movement is efficient, and that you are getting your eyes to the front sight, try backing up a bit from your 3 yard target. At three yards, if your index is good, you can point shoot a 6" plate. Of course it takes practice to get your index to that point, but it's yet another goal.

A good way to practice is to Index on a target, close your eyes, and memorize how that body position feels. Move your focus from your hips all the way through your shoulders and out to your trigger finger, being sure to feel every aspect. Do it several times, and then slowly start drawing to that same feeling. Your goal is to be able to draw, at speed, exactly to that position. When you can do that, your movement will be efficient, and when you get the gun into position at the end of your draw, your front sight will just be "there." This doesn't take the place of finding your front sight with your eyes, but it helps massively for all kinds of applications when speed is of the essence.

Anyway, that's a great way to avoid a lot of the common pitfalls of a slow draw, such as inefficient movement, non-existent index, and slow sight confirmation on the target. Unfortunately there isn't a quick fix - it takes time and correct repetitions. Fortunately you can do almost all of this at home in dryfire practice, and then take your new skills to the range to cement them with live fire training.

[John Ralston]

I have some very good videos on the different aspects (Matt Burkett, Jerry Barnhart, etc), so I have a good basis for practice, I just can't seem to get the body to move any faster!

I will keep at it for sure, and hopefully by the end of summer I can get down below 1.5 consistently ;)

Thanks for the suggestions.

[ToddG]

I would urge caution working on any 1-shot draw drills. Obtaining great speed is possible with a bad grip and no ability to control or follow through.

Some of the times being reported here are already spectacular. If I can hit a 3x5 twice in less than 2 seconds from concealment, I feel like I'm doing an outstanding job.

[jslaker]

For context:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

Dave Sevigny running the F.A.S.T. Drill - 1.36 from draw on both runs.

[beltjones]

I would urge caution working on any 1-shot draw drills. Obtaining great speed is possible with a bad grip and no ability to control or follow through.

Some of the times being reported here are already spectacular. If I can hit a 3x5 twice in less than 2 seconds from concealment, I feel like I'm doing an outstanding job.

It depends on the distance, though. I think the OP who is in the 1.6 second range on a 6" plate at 3 yards is smart to want to improve that. It's not "slow" per se, but there is definitely room for meaningful improvement.

[JV_]

One small detail that really worked for me was getting on the gun as soon as the shirt was clearing my gun.

I'm wasting less time getting that grip because I'm still moving the shirt out of the way with my left hand.

[John Ralston]

I would urge caution working on any 1-shot draw drills. Obtaining great speed is possible with a bad grip and no ability to control or follow through.

Some of the times being reported here are already spectacular. If I can hit a 3x5 twice in less than 2 seconds from concealment, I feel like I'm doing an outstanding job.


Great point Todd - I don't feel that I am just flinging the gun out there to get the time. I don't break the shot unless the sight picture and grip are there. I will work on the 2 shot drill to make sure all is in order. I am not trying for blazing fast, just improvement.

Also, in regards to Sevigny's times...I think I am probably fine where I am at ;)

The nice thing, about where I live, is that I can take a 30 min drive, visit the folks, and shoot out in the back of their 20 acres (daily if necessary).

BTW - what distance are you placing the 3x5 card - 7 yards?

[LittleLebowski]

BTW - what distance are you placing the 3x5 card - 7 yards?

25' or a little over 8 yards.

[LittleLebowski]

One small detail that really worked for me was getting on the gun as soon as the shirt was clearing my gun.

I'm wasting less time getting that grip because I'm still moving the shirt out of the way with my left hand.

Appendix?

[JV_]

Appendix?Yep.

[LittleLebowski]

That's one of the things I love about appendix. The weak hand has a purpose and it works well.

[John Ralston]

25' or a little over 8 yards.

Thanks

[Prdator]

John,

Like beltjones said, One really good way to eliminate un-needed motion is to do Dry Fire practice in front of a mirror. You only want to move what you HAVE to move during your draw.
Once you have that down make sure that you RELAX before you start your draw, if your muscles are tense you will be slower, as the muscles have to over come the resistance of the tension. So relax, move only what you have to and on the buzzer you'll be faster than you were.

[Jay Cunningham]

The weak hand has a purpose

Dude...

:p

[YVK]

John: I have the same problem, and I've worked on it repeatedly since my spring 2010 AFHF class. I've worked on pressouts, live and dry, I do draws in front of a mirror (Todd noted a considerable wasted movement I had at that class), I try to concentrate on reacting to the very first part of timer's beep, etc. - and so far, it has not helped much. I can't beat two seconds on 3x5 at 25 feet, regardless of holster position, and I am more often closer to 2.5 than 2.0. I have no clue how guys above do this around 1.4-1.8 seconds, even though I know the theory behind it.

I don't know if I can ever get there, but, based on the efforts I've put so far, I think that my only hope is massive amount of practice with live fire. I noticed a phenomenon that's similar to dry-fire with snap caps: when you know you have a dummy, your trigger press is perfect. When I dry practice my first shot, I generally have a very smooth presentation and trigger breaks exactly at the end of extension. Unfortunately, I can't get my timer react to dry fire, but it feels fast. Then everything breaks down when I go live; almost like a variant of anticipation.

[LittleLebowski]

YVK, if it helps, I also have no idea how Todd does it in under a second :D

[YVK]

I can barely get a shot on 3x5 at 25 from high ready under one second....

To be honest, I have limited aspirations here. I've truly spent enough time on it to start feeling that this could be unattainable for me. If one looks on Todd's P30 and HK 45 reports, the first shots at 1.4-1.5 range have been associated with sub-5 seconds F.A.S.T., and I know I am not going to shoot that fast ever. All I care is to consistently break 2 seconds par.
BTW, speaking of par, I've tried to use this feature on my timer to know where I am at in my draw when 2 seconds are up - and it doesn't help - just tells me I am almost there all while distracting my attention. I wonder if any of you used it with shorter pars, say, 1 second, to gauge your speed, i.e. how much time one expects to spend on pulling gun up to the point of initial sight acquisition vs. time spent on pressout.

[John Ralston]

I can barely get a shot on 3x5 at 25 from high ready under one second....

To be honest, I have limited aspirations here. I've truly spent enough time on it to start feeling that this could be unattainable for me. If one looks on Todd's P30 and HK 45 reports, the first shots at 1.4-1.5 range have been associated with sub-5 seconds F.A.S.T., and I know I am not going to shoot that fast ever. All I care is to consistently break 2 seconds par.
BTW, speaking of par, I've tried to use this feature on my timer to know where I am at in my draw when 2 seconds are up - and it doesn't help - just tells me I am almost there all while distracting my attention. I wonder if any of you used it with shorter pars, say, 1 second, to gauge your speed, i.e. how much time one expects to spend on pulling gun up to the point of initial sight acquisition vs. time spent on pressout.



Well...kind of the same thing here. I am sure I won't get down to those blinding fast draw speeds, but I would still like to improve.

I know of different exercises that help with visual speed (both movement and fucusing), so maybe it's time to hit google up for exercises that help with improving speed on the upper body.

That is what it really boils down to - RAW SPEED If you can move twice as fast, then you should be able to get to the gun, draw, press out and be on target faster. Throttle it back 25%-30% for perfect shot placement and control and you would still be under 2 seconds.

And of course there is still the old standby...practice, practice, practice :D

[beltjones]

To a degree I think you guys are missing the key things that will actually equate to more speed, and frankly more accuracy.

It's not about moving faster. I seems like it should be, but it's not.

A huge part of getting those two shots on a three x five is practicing to the point that you're not adjusting your sight picture at all once the gun comes out. If I draw, press out, and then adjust my sight picture I'm going to be about a half a second slower than if I draw, press out, and break the shot. That doesn't mean I "guess" about where the rounds go, or that I'm just hoping to get lucky. It means I've practiced my index to the point that when I press out, the sights automatically come to where I'm looking. That way I see my sights on the target, and I don't have to adjust anything. That takes a lot of practice to build muscle memory (of what your index feels like), and also to build the hand-eye coordination that will allow your eyes to automatically guide your sights onto the target. Oh yeah, if you're constantly doing this with different guns you're sabotaging your learning curve. Pick one gun and use it as exclusively as you can if you want to learn this stuff faster.

Another thing that is critical is your trigger prep. If you're not prepping the trigger until you see an acceptable sight picture you're going to be slow and inaccurate. On the press out get that trigger all the way up to the ragged edge so that you only need to "bump" it once your sight picture is acceptable. You will definitely throw some rounds early when you're practicing this stuff. That's ok. As long as you're gun is pointed in a safe direction, it's ok to throw a few rounds into the berm - it's just part of learning your gun's trigger.

[YVK]

I won't speak for John, but I've certainly worked on adjusting my draw and picking up my front sight as early as possible so I can correct sight picture during extension.

You did bring one point that, to me, makes the difference between average shooter and good/great shooter. People use the word "index" all the time and I don't know what it means; I prefer the term "hand-eye coordination" that you used. Advanced shooters, through repetition, do get their sights to point exactly where their eyes look. In other words and in context of press-out, I will have to make a lot more adjustments as I push my gun on target than Todd when he pushes his.
That's my take on it, and that's why I said my personal hope was in live fire practice since this can only be achieved by means of mileage.

[John Ralston]

To a degree I think you guys are missing the key things that will actually equate to more speed, and frankly more accuracy.

It's not about moving faster. I seems like it should be, but it's not.

A huge part of getting those two shots on a three x five is practicing to the point that you're not adjusting your sight picture at all once the gun comes out. If I draw, press out, and then adjust my sight picture I'm going to be about a half a second slower than if I draw, press out, and break the shot. That doesn't mean I "guess" about where the rounds go, or that I'm just hoping to get lucky. It means I've practiced my index to the point that when I press out, the sights automatically come to where I'm looking. That way I see my sights on the target, and I don't have to adjust anything. That takes a lot of practice to build muscle memory (of what your index feels like), and also to build the hand-eye coordination that will allow your eyes to automatically guide your sights onto the target. Oh yeah, if you're constantly doing this with different guns you're sabotaging your learning curve. Pick one gun and use it as exclusively as you can if you want to learn this stuff faster.

Another thing that is critical is your trigger prep. If you're not prepping the trigger until you see an acceptable sight picture you're going to be slow and inaccurate. On the press out get that trigger all the way up to the ragged edge so that you only need to "bump" it once your sight picture is acceptable. You will definitely throw some rounds early when you're practicing this stuff. That's ok. As long as you're gun is pointed in a safe direction, it's ok to throw a few rounds into the berm - it's just part of learning your gun's trigger.

I agree with your post, however, most of my lack of speed is actual movement (IMO) - so if I don't address that issue, I don't think that I can get much faster. I definitely want to address the issues you have mentioned (and thank you for mentioning those points) - as every aspect of the draw will determine the overall speed of presentation.

If I could get to the gun faster, then I could slow down a bit getting a good grip, if I could get to the high ready faster, then I could slow down getting my support hand on the gun, if I can press out faster I can get a sight picture quicker.

I will definitely take your suggestions to my next range session though :cool:

[Odin Bravo One]

Is there a drill that you guys might suggest or is this one of those cases of practice, practice, practice and hope it improves?

I don't think 1.6 is terrible, but as has been mentioned before - you can't bee too fast in a gun fight!

A lot of good discussion points on some very particular things to work on for improving a one shot from the holster time. Something else to consider.....find a shooting buddy who can critique you, and/or use a video camera that you can slow down enough to see exactly what you are doing, where you can trim some fat, and economize your movements. Watch other shooters who have good economy of motion, and back at your video and note the differences. One of the most often dicked up quotes in the shooting/tactical world is "Smooth is fast"........I don't know the name of the moron who insisted on introducing this phrase, but smooth is not fast. Especially if it is slow. But it is a place to start.

The correct phrase, and properly implemented can be a great training/practice reminder: "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast". But what they meant by that was not going slow for the sake of going slow. But rather going slow, and methodical until your body developed the habit of performing that motion in an effecient, and fumble free manner. Herky Jerky body movements give the illusion of speed, and that is what we are trying to avoid. We want speed through effecient movement, not the illusion of it for the sake of feeding our ego.

Another idea is to break down the sequence of events into talking points....such as 1) Hands move to garment 2) Lift garment, grab pistol 3) clear leather 4) acquire two hand grip 5) press out 6) front sight focus................or whatever you come up with that makes the most sense to you and is repeatable. Then start with focused, conscious practice, going no faster than you can talk yourself through and apply your points of performance. As you progress, and your comfort level increases, gradually apply a little faster movement, but ensuring that you continue to perform each action without extraneous movements or going faster than you can properly perform the actions.

If a particular practice run felt jerky, or ineffecient.....stop. Go back to one solid repetition of talking yourself through nice and slow, consciously remind yourself of what the actions are, and resume practice.

Visualization of the motions works well too. Visualize the motion, in minute detail from start to finish. Then talk yourself through it. Then a little faster. And faster still. Visualize doing it faster. And go faster. Visualize it at the speed you want to go, then perform the action. But never going so fast as you get out of control, or fumble the manipulation of concealment garment, or pistol manipulation.

And to piggyback off of Todd's post......be wary of practicing a single shot drawstroke drill.

What is the "why" behind the desire? The closing sentence in the OP infers self-defense/lethal encounter. And while I get it that we want to be fast on the draw stroke, press out, first round hit so we hit our adversary before he hits us.......and that is where the majority of the excellent comments so far are focused.........is it solely the first shot we want to be fast? Or are we looking for something more and that first shot is just one step along the way?

Because if it is just the first shot quickly, that changes the game drastically. We can get away with a lot of fundamental errors for just one shot and still hit, and hit very quickly. But you are not likely to be able to continue to engage with accurate and effective follow-up shots if you blew the fundamentals out of your ass for the sake of speed. If we are talking about self-defense, and your pistol is chambered in something smaller than .300 Win Mag, those follow up shots become every bit as important as the first shot.

I understand the desire to be fast. And obviously we need some method to gauge and measure our current level as well as improvement, so we use shot timers. But if we use the shot timer as the end all, be all measurement of skill, then we are so concerned with finding a tree that we have failed to see the forest. If ever we do have to execute a draw stroke and engage a lethal threat for real, there is one thing I can guarantee you will not see...........a shot timer.

[John Ralston]

Because if it is just the first shot quickly, that changes the game drastically. We can get away with a lot of fundamental errors for just one shot and still hit, and hit very quickly. But you are not likely to be able to continue to engage with accurate and effective follow-up shots if you blew the fundamentals out of your ass for the sake of speed. If we are talking about self-defense, and your pistol is chambered in something smaller than .300 Win Mag, those follow up shots become every bit as important as the first shot.


Great point - and I definitely plan to implement the 2 shot criteria into my practice from now on. I will set up the video camera at my next session as well (or maybe during a dry fire session) and see if any alarms go off. I also think that if I can get comfortable with appendix carry (physical comfort) that I will see some improvement from gear placement alone. It is much easier for the support hand to clear the cover garment when using appendix carry.

Thanks

[beltjones]

I agree with your post, however, most of my lack of speed is actual movement (IMO) - so if I don't address that issue, I don't think that I can get much faster. I definitely want to address the issues you have mentioned (and thank you for mentioning those points) - as every aspect of the draw will determine the overall speed of presentation.

If I could get to the gun faster, then I could slow down a bit getting a good grip, if I could get to the high ready faster, then I could slow down getting my support hand on the gun, if I can press out faster I can get a sight picture quicker.

I will definitely take your suggestions to my next range session though :cool:

I hate to sound argumentative, but I think eventually you will find that it doesn't quite work that way.

It's like driving a race car. Sometimes you need to go slow in order to go faster later. How much time do you think you save on a smooth press out vs one going as fast as you can? A tenth of a second? If I can press out smoothly onto the target and fire the instant my arms are extended I'll be faster than if I press out as fast as I can and then start aiming. Likewise, if I go smoothly and efficiently toward the gun and get a perfect grip I'll be faster than if I go as fast to the gun as I can and then fumble with my grip as I get my support hand in place.

Smooth doesn't equal slow, but it will feel slow if you've practiced it enough. That's a good thing.

Also, if you're racing to get your grip, racing to get your support hand on the gun, and racing to complete your press out there is a very good chance you will add tension, and tension is a speed killer. You will feel lightening fast when you are tense and moving in jerky movements. You will feel slow when you are relaxed and moving smoothly. The clock will tell a much different story in both cases.

[John Ralston]

Got it! Now I see the intent of what you posted.

The snow is now melting off, so I can do more shooting than I have been able to lately, and put these suggestions to practice.

[ToddG]

I don't consciously train for or rely on a physical index. Physical index is situation dependent, can fail when moving targets or moving shooter enter the equation, and as mentioned takes a great deal of time to train.

A proper press out involves picking up the sight and having your aiming process occur before you reach full extension. You're not relying on the sights being aligned, you're actually visually aligning the sights.

[mnealtx]

I don't consciously train for or rely on a physical index. Physical index is situation dependent, can fail when moving targets or moving shooter enter the equation, and as mentioned takes a great deal of time to train.

A proper press out involves picking up the sight and having your aiming process occur before you reach full extension. You're not relying on the sights being aligned, you're actually visually aligning the sights.

Does it become something that you automatically do given sufficient practice, or do you have to consciously do it each time?

[ToddG]

Does it become something that you automatically do given sufficient practice, or do you have to consciously do it each time?

Not trying to be snarky, but define "it."

[mnealtx]

Not trying to be snarky, but define "it."

The process of aligning your sights during the press-out. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

[JV_]

The process of aligning your sights during the press-out. I believe that it does become automatic. The first time I really noticed it was during a man on man steel drill. I knocked down a plate during a fairly good (and fast) press-out; I was so shocked the plate fell that I paused for a few seconds. That pause ate up all of the head start I got on my opponent. Mentally, I said "WOW ... that was cool". My mind took over and just did it.

[ToddG]

I practice doing it consciously so that when I am shooting fast and have other things to think about, it happens automatically.

[mnealtx]

Thank you both.

[YVK]

I don't consciously train for or rely on a physical index. Physical index is situation dependent, can fail when moving targets or moving shooter enter the equation, and as mentioned takes a great deal of time to train.


I know, yet I am nearly certain that if you taped your sights, or took them off, or just maintained target focus, you'd still be faster on target than I am with full use of sights. Conversely, if I asked you to drive a 5 foot long 0.014 diameter wire through a series of convoluted channels holding it by the very end while looking at an X ray monitor, it would take you a lot longer than it would take me, even though both of us would have the same visual control over it. I honestly think that a lot of difference is in developed hand-eye coordination - with same amount of visual control or lack thereof, you'll drive the pistol more precisely and I'll drive the wire better.

Maybe one day we have a technology to record a view through a rear sight as gun is being driven on target. I am going to venture a guess that gun driven by you will only require fine-tuning of a sight picture, while gun driven by me will require a lot of adjustments.

[ToddG]

Y -- I agree completely. In fact, one of the neat things I learned while playing with my SIRT is that I am actually a pretty decent point shooter. :cool:

But having built up the coordination, or habit, or whatever is still different than simply relying on an index.

[David Pennington]

Maybe one day we have a technology to record a view through a rear sight as gun is being driven on target. I am going to venture a guess that gun driven by you will only require fine-tuning of a sight picture, while gun driven by me will require a lot of adjustments.

It exists. There is a system where the shooter looks through a set of goggles and the monitor records the exact sight picture as the shooter sees it.



Quick draws:

There is WAY too much emphasis on speed from the holster. It's a great skill to have but lots of folks are obsessed with that first shot from the draw and spend an inordinate amount of time on this one skill.

The real life difference between a theoretical 1 second draw and a 1.5 second draw are almost nil. While there are certainly cases out there where a quick first shot made a difference they are more rare than hens teeth. In real life, the vast majority of the time, you will be reacting off of visual and verbal cues not a timer that you are anticipating. It's good to have a quick draw but if you are, say, under 2 seconds from concealment to your first consistent shot on an 8" target at 5 yards you are probably fast enough. While that is a pretty "low" standard shooting wise, it will very likely be just fine in a real defensive situation. Instead of shooting thousands of rounds to get that down to 1.4 seconds, there are lots of way more important skills to have--- very consistent accuracy, SHO/WHO manipulations, shooting on the move and from disadvantaged positions. Once you've got all of that other stuff down pat, you draw will likely be way faster naturally or you'll have time to go back an work on it.

The one very legitimate thing a quick draw buys you is extra time to assess a situation or to refine your shooting fundamentals pre-shot.

I used to spend a lot of time on my first shot speeds and was consistently in the 1.3 second range from concealment or a duty rig into an 8" circle at 7 yards. That was when I shot twice a week, every week. When range time became more scarce, I focused down on other aspects of shooting that mattered more. The natural familiarity that "general" pistol practice buys you will show itself across the board as well as in the draw. I hardly ever specifically work on quick draws (stand alone, not shooting as part of an overall drill) and my draws are as fast, if not faster, than ever---not that it matters that much though.

Long story short, don't spend 90% of your time on a 10% probability. Chasing the timer can be addictive but don't go too far down that roads until all of your other shooting issues are worked out.

I'm taking cover now...:rolleyes:

[ToddG]

Very good point and good advice, Dave. As someone who works toward (and teaches) improving draw speed, there is definitely a point of diminishing return. Going from a 3 second draw to a 2 second draw is probably worthwhile for folks who are serious. Pushing past that point requires a lot of dedicated, focused practice.

Is it better to have a faster draw than a slower one? Yes. In my mind, every quarter second matters, because we know the average untrained guy shoots ~4 rounds per second... every quarter second I take off my draw, reload, etc. is one less "free shot" the other guy gets.

But if a person spends all his time on getting down to a 1.5 draw and neglects things like accuracy at speed on demand, there's been a massive error in prioritizing.

[beltjones]

Y -- I agree completely. In fact, one of the neat things I learned while playing with my SIRT is that I am actually a pretty decent point shooter. :cool:

But having built up the coordination, or habit, or whatever is still different than simply relying on an index.

At this point I think it's semantics. I don't know of anyone who "relies" on an index without utilizing their vision to guide the gun on target. In fact, that's kind of the point of an index - you develop the coordination and habit to get the gun very close to where it should be based on where you're looking, but you still always get your eyes on the sights as soon as possible and you never break the shot until your sight picture is confirmed. At least in my mind, the "index" is more akin to hand-eye coordination than it is to high speed point shooting.

[John Ralston]

Got to do a bit of shooting today - some draw and shoot 2, press out drills and a bit of group shooting.

What I can tell you for sure is that my split times are ATROCIOUS!! I could draw and shoot 2 at or under 2 seconds on a pretty regular basis if my split times were in the 0.25 range. I am closer to 0.4 (shooting a G19 with factory 5.5 trigger). So...I guess that gives me another skill to practice next time.

Also, a question for others - when you draw from the holster, do you bring the gun/front sight up high (say around your chin) in order to pick up the front sight quicker during the press out. For me, I can pick it up much quicker that way, but not sure if it is an overall benefit to bring the gun up that high.

[Prdator]

Also, a question for others - when you draw from the holster, do you bring the gun/front sight up high (say around your chin) in order to pick up the front sight quicker during the press out. For me, I can pick it up much quicker that way, but not sure if it is an overall benefit to bring the gun up that high.

Here is a quick link for about what we do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lstvjLCi4oA

Travis get's the gun up high and pushes the front sight to the target, ( what Todd calls the press out) His presentation is not quite what I like but it gets you a good idea.

S

[John Ralston]

Thanks...

I actually have that DVD, but I have not had time to watch it again in a long time. I will have to pop it in the DVD Player this week.

[Nelson]

Maybe one day we have a technology to record a view through a rear sight as gun is being driven on target. I am going to venture a guess that gun driven by you will only require fine-tuning of a sight picture, while gun driven by me will require a lot of adjustments.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1XC8k-tZc About 30 seconds in, he starts using such a system.

[JV_]

Here is a quick link for about what we do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lstvjLCi4oA

I bring my gun up a bit higher. Out of the draw, I'm bringing the gun up to a high ready, where the front sight in inline with my eye and the target. For me, the press out is merely bringing the rear sight UP, while driving out to the target.

Here is one of Todd's slow press out demos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4

[John Ralston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1XC8k-tZc About 30 seconds in, he starts using such a system.

Jerry Barnhart did something similar using a conventional camera over his shoulder and a monitor (to allow him to align the sights).

Much of that skill is repitition, so that your mind isn't racing from...I need to do this, I need to do that, ohhh...I should be watching might sights lift, etc. Practice until it is sub-conscious and all of a sudden your mind will be doing all the tasks in unison without prompting. Many of the action shooters have commented on the first stage they ever shot where it felt like they were in a slow motion video, seeing their sights lift off every target, shooting all A's and then finding out in the end that is was their fastest stage ever. Some day I hope to get there.

If I practice watching the sights lift, I can see the front sight in perfect focus as it lifts up and out of the notch, until comes back into alignment. The trick is doing it while trying to accomplish the many other aspects of defensive shooting at the same time :D

[John Ralston]

I bring my gun up a bit higher. Out of the draw, I'm bringing the gun up to a high ready, where the front sight in inline with my eye and the target. For me, the press out is merely bringing the rear sight UP, while driving out to the target.

Here is one of Todd's slow press out demos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4

Thanks for that link - it confirms what I found to be true for myself - get the front sight up in line with the eye, then bring the rear sight up to meet it during the press out.

So much to learn...I am a very young (my wife says I am 14) Jedi

[Dropkick]

Here is one of Todd's slow press out demos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4

I was watching this same video just the other day, actually. It looks like Todd brings the pistol all the way up to his cheek on his draw. Which would makes sense that it is easier to acquire a sight picture quicker. Not to mention, the draw from his AIWB is straight up to his cheek.

I've seen a number of instructional videos where the draw comes up to the arm pit instead, as a more of a defensive / retention shooting technique. This method seems to be paired more often with 3 o'clock holsters. Likewise the draw from the hip and going straight up you end up in the arm pit.

Let's not even talk about the path of my draw. :( However, using video playback during dry-fire sessions I know when, where, and what my problem is. I highly suggest video as a self assessment tool.

[DocGKR]

I like what Sean M and David Pennington had to say on this topic. I think it is also important to realize what you are training to accomplish. Speed on the draw is useful, especially in the competition arena, however for real world purposes, I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time on an aspect of defense that gains me little in the way of advantage. In most cases the difference between a 2.5 sec vs. 1.5 sec draw is not going to be as significant in a self-defense encounter as the time leading up to the incident where a person could have perhaps avoided the incident through better tactics or positioned oneself in a more advantageous manner to prevail in the fight.

[NickA]

SNarc's 2 questions thread got me thinking: how much time is spent in each part of the draw? For example, how much time from buzzer to #3 position or start of the pressout? And from there to the shot? Wondering if it would be productive to set up some dry fire par time drills for each part of the draw to see where the time is going (I guess a percentage of the time would be better). Also the second part would obviously be affected by size of target and distance.

[Dropkick]

SNarc's 2 questions thread got me thinking: how much time is spent in each part of the draw? For example, how much time from buzzer to #3 position or start of the pressout? And from there to the shot? Wondering if it would be productive to set up some dry fire par time drills for each part of the draw to see where the time is going (I guess a percentage of the time would be better). Also the second part would obviously be affected by size of target and distance.

The way draw speed was explained to me was:
Move your hands fast to gun (clear cover garment, etc.)
Slow down and make a deliberate combat grip on the gun
Draw and move to #2 fast, continue out to #3 fast
Slow down as necessary to find sights while pressing out to fire your shot.

Faster, Slower, Faster, Slower

Reason being is you can do the "faster" parts as fast as you can is because they do not effect your ability to fire an accurate shot. If you rush getting a grip and / or rush the press out it will show in your accuracy.

Hope that helps.

[NickA]

The way draw speed was explained to me was:
Move your hands fast to gun (clear cover garment, etc.)
Slow down and make a deliberate combat grip on the gun
Draw and move to #2 fast, continue out to #3 fast
Slow down as necessary to find sights while pressing out to fire your shot.

Faster, Slower, Faster, Slower

Reason being is you can do the "faster" parts as fast as you can is because they do not effect your ability to fire an accurate shot. If you rush getting a grip and / or rush the press out it will show in your accuracy.

Hope that helps.
Right, and that does help, but what I'm getting at is how much actual time or what % of the total is taken up by each step? For the sake of simplicity I'm putting the draw in 2 parts (holster to #3, #3 to shot). Make sense?

[Al T.]

Hate to be a simpleton, but I saw a lot of folks wait for the buzzer to end before starting their draw stroke. If you can condition your self to start an aggressive draw stroke at the instant the buzzer sounds, you will shave a decent amount of recorded time off your stats.

That being said, it's a gamer approach to a real world issue. I can usually get my hand on my gun through some careful movement, so step one of the draw stroke is eliminated.

[ToddG]

NickA -- I don't know if it's that easy. Different holsters, different body types, etc. will make those things vary from shooter to shooter. So will different techniques (i.e., press-out vs. no press-out).

The places where I see people lose the most time in the draw:

Getting their hands on the gun slowly (fumbling with cover garments, retention devices, etc.)
Not being ready to make an aimed shot when the gun gets to full extension

[NickA]

Eh, it was worth a shot. I suspect I'm wasting the most time in the press-out, will work on it and see what happens.

[beltjones]

If you watch the video of Todd's draw, you will see that his head doesn't move, his shoulders don't move, his hips don't move, etc. Only his arms move, and even then they're very efficient.

I think most people who can't seem to shave significant time off their draws would benefit greatly from video taping themselves and looking for any wasted movement. Unless you're some super human, you probably have quite a bit of movement you aren't even aware you're doing...

[NickA]

If you watch the video of Todd's draw, you will see that his head doesn't move, his shoulders don't move, his hips don't move, etc. Only his arms move, and even then they're very efficient.

I think most people who can't seem to shave significant time off their draws would benefit greatly from video taping themselves and looking for any wasted movement. Unless you're some super human, you probably have quite a bit of movement you aren't even aware you're doing...

Don't get me wrong, I've got plenty to work on before i even get close to "fast". It's just that I've caught myself pressing out without really focusing on the front sight and having to pause before breaking the shot. I'll be spending some dry fire time in front of the mirror this week and hopefully get some match video this weekend. I bet I can be very smooth and fast at home, probably different under pressure.

[Dropkick]

If you watch the video of Todd's draw, you will see that his head doesn't move, his shoulders don't move, his hips don't move, etc. Only his arms move, and even then they're very efficient.

I think most people who can't seem to shave significant time off their draws would benefit greatly from video taping themselves and looking for any wasted movement. Unless you're some super human, you probably have quite a bit of movement you aren't even aware you're doing...

I agree, video taping is a great tip. It helped me in the past identify problems I wasn't aware of.