Explain Dry Firing To Me Please?

[Cypher]

I don't dry fire.

I have heard that I should since I first started taking any kind of training but all I was told was "you should dry fire".

So how do I dry fire? What am I trying to accomplish? How do I know I'm doing it right? (Besides the obvious my shooting improves) what about using a laser cartridge?

Thank you for answering my constant pain in the ass questions

[Peally]

No laser cartridges needed, and in fact defeats a lot of the point. Dry firing is setting up targets at home and practicing everything about shooting except the actual act of recoil management so you aren't unnecessarily blowing rounds at the range.

Basically it's how you git gud without being a millionaire or ammunition manufacturer CEO. Body builders go to the gym, shooters dry fire (and confirm their training in live fire). Dry fire a crap-ton, go shoot drills with real ammo, see what you screw up and need to change in your training, rinse and repeat.

ETA: because I can't recommend his books enough on the subject and they'll basically answer any questions and set you on the path (you still need to supply the will to practice regularly though): https://www.amazon.com/DryFire-Reloaded-Ben-Stoeger/dp/1542880246/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491336240&sr=8-1&keywords=ben+stoeger+dry+fire+reloaded

[critter]

The main thing to *look for* while dry firing is to make sure that the front sight doesn't budge as you hear the click (well, rear sight too, but if the rear sight is jumping around, there are some major issues at play). It's rock solid stationary on every squeeze. If it dances around, or shifts, that would have been a less than stellar live round shot.

[PNWTO]

http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5185


So how do I dry fire? What am I trying to accomplish? How do I know I'm doing it right? (Besides the obvious my shooting improves) what about using a laser cartridge?

Check out the above plus the trigger and sight control posts in the reference section. That is a good start. I don't think a laser is 100% necessary and may even be distracting for the novice by taking attention away from the sights.

[RJ]

Page 2 of the Rangemaster Dec 15 Newsletter explains Dry Practice pretty well.

http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/2015-12_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf

Rangemaster is owned by Tom Givens, a SME here on Pistol Forum. If you haven't seen the newsletters, they are a literal gold mine of useful information.

[octagon]

I would say you are doing it right if you never hear a bang but you ask a serious question and deserve a serious answer. I am no means an expert but recently took up a more serious dry fire program so I will describe what i do and has been working in improving my skills.

First and foremost everytime you should set aside dedicated time and place to safely dry fire.

A dedicated dry fire gun if you have an extra is also a good idea but never skip the safety. Double and triple check visually and physically the gun is empty and no live ammo is in the room you will dry fire in.

That said you work on the skills you want to improve on and those you are bad at.

Practice drawing and engaging a target
Dry fire at a target to practice the trigger press,grip and sight alignment
Look up wall drill and do the same without a target to focus more on trigger press without the target but watching for sight movement.
Practice getting into various positions and dry firing from those positions while you watch your sights for movement.
Practice reloads using empty magazines or with dummy rounds, weighted magazine trainers or magazine blocking adapter that prevents the slide locking open when empty.
Print up some 1/3 or 1/6 scale IDPA targets to place around your dry fire room and practice a stage where 1 foot is equal to 1 yard in how the target appears.

All these can be done with a laser cartridge (except the dummy round use) and that adds an element of indicating where a round would hit with the trigger press. However as the o rings wear the laser hit can change and be off from the last position. There is also the possibility of inducing the issue of looking for the laser dot hit and not following through on focusing on the front sight. I believe this is called eye racing. I have caught myself doing it and I switch to regular dry fire for awhile to stop it.

You can also get laser indicating targets from multiple sources like Laserlyte where I got my laser cartridge but others make some also. These indicate a hit,where,and or reaction time or sound,vibrate or fall when hit depending on the target.

In addition there are other tools and equipment that allow a camera and laser cartridge to allow you to set up a range of targets in the camera view that when hit by the laser sound and locate the hit when viewed on the computer screen

The sky is the limit for adding things to make the practice more fun or interesting but nothing is needed to benefit from dry fire practice with just a safe place to practice and a double checked empty gun. The benefit comes from reps done properly not the add ons.

I'm sure others will go into using a shot timer or shot timer app with par times for practicing skills under a specified time or adding a video camera to look for inefficiencies.

ETA See while I was busy typing stuff others were answering your question

[octagon]

Here are some links for dry fire accessories. They aren't required to get results but can add some fun and make it interesting.

https://www.laserlyte.com/ Laser cartridges and targets as well as dedicated laser training guns.

https://nextleveltraining.com/shop/ Dedicated training guns and equipment related to dry fire

https://jet.com/product/detail/d5bb15fb3b2f47e6b3ea46a247ccbbb8?jcmp=pla:ggl:NJ_d ur_Gen_Sporting_Goods_a3:Sporting_Goods_Hunting_Gu n_Accessories_a3:na:PLA_783891034_42653281378_pla-321720452364:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15

I like and use the above style metal case dummy rounds as they work well and don't wear out with gouges on the rim so quickly as full plastic dummy rounds.

http://www.dryfiremag.com/ I haven't used this but it is supposed to work in a regular Glock to make it work like a SIRT gun.

http://lasrapp.com/?gclid=Cj0KEQjwiI3HBRDv0q_qhqXZ-N4BEiQAOTiCHupnNwKIFDtMfmlQrVkJ85qWmA-FSq8rTau4LD_pZIsaAitM8P8HAQ

The above link is for an app that allows dry fire and laser to set up a home range with camera and laser cartridge.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0165WEZ98/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 These allow you to do reloads and slide racking without the slide being locked open.

[RJ]

I use a AAA headlight when I dry practice to help me see the front sight:

Petzl - TIKKINA Headlamp 80 Lumens, Black (FFP)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YZ3UWQK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_bsa5ybGDTTYBV


I also put on a pair of full lens 1.5 safety glasses as well:

Pyramex Safety SG7910D15 Emerge Grey Frame with Clear +1.5 Lens

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E5NXH6M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_tta5ybJ2R9KBT

[Jay Cunningham]

The main thing to *look for* while dry firing is to make sure that the front sight doesn't budge as you hear the click (well, rear sight too, but if the rear sight is jumping around, there are some major issues at play). It's rock solid stationary on every squeeze. If it dances around, or shifts, that would have been a less than stellar live round shot.

I disagree with you if the main focus is practical pistol shooting.

Attempting to keep a front sight absolutely still during a dry trigger manipulation will lead to all kinds of compromise in order to achieve that goal.

Should that be the goal, or should something else be the goal?

[Duces Tecum]

What am I trying to accomplish?

A dry fire session may (if you wish) simulate a gun fight. There are many moments in a fight, and each contains a different objective. What you are trying to accomplish is to flow through the sequential objectives like corn through a goose.


So how do I dry fire?

It's possible that the event may occur at close range, perhaps within two arm lengths. These are high probability shots where the target is (relatively) big but the widow of opportunity is small. I stand five feet from the dressing room mirror and draw/shoot at my reflection as fast as I can, aiming at the triangle formed by the outside corners of the eyes and the bottom of the nose. immediately following striker fall I check sight alignment. If I'm off the triangle, the shot doesn't count and I slow down. Alternatively, if I'm making too small a "group", I speed up. I shoot two-handed, five left and five right. Someone (perhaps on this board) recently described the "flash sight picture" under 10 yards as point shooting ending with sight verification. That is an actionable visualization.

It's also possible that a distance shot might be required, and these should be practiced as well. I have a 1/3rd scale IPSC target at 11 yards, giving a 33 yard (adjusted) shot. I aim (carefully, but in a non-tardy way) for the target's clavicle notch, and I hold after the shot to verify the sights haven't moved. Each session is devoted to one or two lagging areas: (examples) the presentation, sight alignment, rolling trigger break, sight picture during / after striker fall. I perform 10 reps two-hand (right) and 10 reps one-hand (right), then the same program with the left hand.


How do I know I'm doing it right?

Scott Adams, the author of the Dilbert comics, wrote a book not long ago ("How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big"). In the book he mentions the need for a "system". A system is a series of actions that cumulatively result in better than a 50% chance of success. That's what intelligent dry fire practice is. And you know you're doing it right when your live fire improves. Not "is perfect", just "improves". Dry fire is accretive. When you notice improvement, you know you're doing it right.

[Cypher]

I disagree with you if the main focus is practical pistol shooting.

Attempting to keep a front sight absolutely still during a dry trigger manipulation will lead to all kinds of compromise in order to achieve that goal.

Should that be the goal, or should something else be the goal?

My goal is to not have to post threads asking you to tell me why I'm shooting low and right.

[critter]

I disagree with you if the main focus is practical pistol shooting.

Attempting to keep a front sight absolutely still during a dry trigger manipulation will lead to all kinds of compromise in order to achieve that goal.

Should that be the goal, or should something else be the goal?

Not the 'goal' per se, but rather indicative of a defect in trigger manipulation. The goal would be consistent presentation/grip and trigger manipulation. Perhaps the ambiguity of describing sight picture with words comes into play here. What compromises do you see coming into play?

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm going to write a separate piece on this regarding the old "spent case on the front sight" trick.

If your goal is for your front sight to remain perfectly still during the dry trigger manipulation:

• What is your grip like? Is it strong?

• What is your trigger manipulation like? Is it decisive?

[Cypher]

What happened when you did this:

All my shots are still to the left but not low any more. I think I said Low and Right somewhere but that was a typo. If I'm facing the target and the X is the center of the Clock I was hitting between 7 and 9 now I'm hitting between 8 and 10.

[Cypher]

I'm going to write a separate piece on this regarding the old "spent case on the front sight" trick.

If your goal is for your front sight to remain perfectly still during the dry trigger manipulation:

• What is your grip like? Is it strong?

• What is your trigger manipulation like? Is it decisive?

My goal isn't for the front sight to remain perfectly still because you said that was a bad idea

I think my grip is strong and my trigger manipulation is decisive. I'm not trying to do the surprise break.

My main thing is this forum seems to be in unanimous agreement that dry fire is good but I don't want to practice WRONG and develop bad habits.

[Jay Cunningham]

The above was directed at critter.

[JohnO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ&t=61s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xaJvZLYc4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AxXT_VgAh0

[spinmove_]

I disagree with you if the main focus is practical pistol shooting.

Attempting to keep a front sight absolutely still during a dry trigger manipulation will lead to all kinds of compromise in order to achieve that goal.

Should that be the goal, or should something else be the goal?

I'm doing it wrong then. I thought that was the goal while simultaneously pressing the trigger as briskly and as cleanly as possible.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[critter]

The above was directed at critter.

The only verbals descriptions I can give are as follows: I can tell you is that I first 'trained' to shoot back in the 70's and still use pretty much that same method today. My grip is created mostly by isometric pressure from rotating my right shoulder, pressing the gun between my right palm and solidly cupped left fingers with the slide aligned with the right forearm, thumbs relaxed toward the target. I guess it's a strong grip. The weapon is definitely rock steady and doesn't move around. When I 'dry fire' practice, the sights may move slightly from natural sway but the front sight doesn't 'jump' (in relation to the rear) in any direction as I squeeze the trigger and hear the 'click'. If it does, I understand immediately that something is off. Same thing using a dummy round or two in the mag during live fire.

In my case, low left shots are almost invariably indicative of my anticipating the recoil movement and unconsciously 'correcting' by pushing the gun slightly down as I pull the trigger, pushing the shot in that direction. A dummy shot dry fire exposes this every time. I don't know Jay, I haven't been on a gun forum in quite a number of years, so perhaps my methodology and techniques are outdated.

[Gray222]

+1 for laserlyte.

[Jay Cunningham]

If you can keep the front sight perfectly - and I do mean PERFECTLY - still while pressing the trigger briskly and cleanly, then awesome, you are the man.

Most people concentrate on that perfectly still front sight to the detriment of their grip, trigger manipulation, body alignment behind the gun, etc.

[JustOneGun]

Some of the ideas I like to keep in mind....

Dryfire is so important, if you can spare the money buy ben's book.

I don't pull the trigger during dryfire while par timing. Just on target with finger on the trigger. If you're new you can try it both ways, on the trigger and trigger finger on the frame. (i.e. no need to always have the finger go to the trigger.

However, I do like to always go to front sight where I have a blurry target and a clear front sight. I have a theory that many cops practice draws separate from sight alignment. That leads them to just practicing the draw to the chin where the shoulders are comfortable. If done a lot it can lead to shooting from just below the chin as the norm. This is sort of like having two holster procedures, dry fire and live fire. Sometimes the procedures can get mixed up and the wrong one happens at the wrong time. I like to just have one draw. (this isn't perfect but it is better than the alternative.)

Have the same holster procedure for live fire and dryfire. Don't get lax because it's, "unloaded."

I do slow trigger presses with total front sight accuracy on a blank wall. Many people who say they front sight focus actually are target focused and don't know the difference. This will train front sight, IMO.

Reloads.

Malfunctions clearance.

Target transitions.

All kinds of good stuff that doesn't cost anything but time.

[Jay Cunningham]

I do slow trigger presses with total front sight accuracy on a blank wall.

What is your rationale for practicing slow trigger presses with total front sight accuracy?

[critter]

If you can keep the front sight perfectly - and I do mean PERFECTLY - still while pressing the trigger briskly and cleanly, then awesome, you are the man.

Most people concentrate on that perfectly still front sight to the detriment of their grip, trigger manipulation, body alignment behind the gun, etc.

I see the point you're making. For me, the concentration is on the fundamentals and technique, the result is a steady front sight when the former is executed well. In fact, I don't think at all about "keep the front sight still". I merely notice immediately if it jumps, wiggles, bounces, or flips me the bird while cackling maniacally, and proceed check my fundamentals. In that regard, I'm "looking for it." After 40 some odd years of doing something, I would hope to at least be better than average, even if by sheer accident, however, my technique may indeed be outdated comparing to what is taught today. You're the instructor so your thoughts should be taken more seriously than mine. I'm simply a decent shooter doing what works well for me. Most importantly, I certainly wouldn't use the word "perfectly" anywhere near anything I do.

[Cypher]

1.)So how do I know I'm dry firing right?

2.)In the last thread I was told very specifically that the Lazerlyte was a bad idea because it tends to make you focus on te target not the sights. I know Lazerlyte makes a target that marks your shots so maybe down the road I can look at that but for right now I just want to concentrate or correct trigger manipulation

[JustOneGun]

What is your rationale for practicing slow trigger presses with total front sight accuracy?



It is mostly for new people. But I do a few at the end of every Dryfire session because I'm not shooting nearly as much as I used to when I had keys to the ammo room (if only I could find 250,000 rounds in a room around here.) LOL! The idea is the same as pushing the time live fire then backing off to something that I can assure a hit.

It's another theory that I can't prove (I started doing it right before retirement). It's just a thought that covers how we used to teach people at my old agency. We went too fast, too soon, too much each class, etc. I suspect that instead of taking enough time with Dryfire and then live fire on an empty wall/berm to make focusing on the front sight a procedure, we rushed and many people just target focus and shoot (to make time). They made the time but their accuracy suffered. Again, that's pretty tough to prove. Just a suspicion I have. I haven't noticed a negative with doing it. But as a retired old fart that doesn't shoot nearly as much as I used to, my trigger has stayed pretty good relative to how much I shoot.)

[scw2]

Dryfire is so important, if you can spare the money buy ben's book.

If you can't spare the money, it's even more reason to buy ben's book and dryfire a ton instead of shooting that 1 box of ammo you could have bought instead.

[Peally]

There is a time to go balls out, and there is a time to take your perfect shots. There is a time to never bother touching the trigger, and there is a time to wail on it. It all depends on what specific skill you're trying to learn and refine, or if you're combining skills together.

OP, my suggestion is go buy the cheap ass book and jump right into it. Don't overthink what you're doing. Just get a bunch of practice in, inevitably fuck up royally on something in live fire (too slow, can't hit crap, bad sight pictures, crappy recoil control, anything), and then focus on fixing that issue. That's the eternal cycle, don't be afraid to fail or be a screwup at something.

[scw2]

2.)In the last thread I was told very specifically that the Lazerlyte was a bad idea because it tends to make you focus on te target not the sights. I know Lazerlyte makes a target that marks your shots so maybe down the road I can look at that but for right now I just want to concentrate or correct trigger manipulation

When I started, I would often look over my sights to see where the laser was hitting. That is bad. You don't really need the feedback of the laser when you have the sights to see what's going on, but IMO the laser is nice to keep things interesting if you get bored. Plus now I'm using it as a snapcap that won't get ejected every time I rack the slide on my glock.

If you need some sort of target feedback, I think you can have targets made of some sort of neon color that will glow brightly when hit by the laser, and put that on top of something (like black felt cloth) that will absorb the light if you miss. Thus you can peripherally see whether you're hitting or not by just whether you sense a bright reflection or not.

[Peally]

If you don't know if your shot missed during dry fire you're new to it, or doing it wrong.

[taadski]

Jay, Please don't take any of these comments as snipes. I'm legitimately interested in your sentiments here, as I've seen you allude to them before. Honestly curious.



I disagree with you if the main focus is practical pistol shooting.

Attempting to keep a front sight absolutely still during a dry trigger manipulation will lead to all kinds of compromise in order to achieve that goal.

Should that be the goal, or should something else be the goal?

How are you defining practical pistol shooting? At what point does good pure marksmanship become unpractical? Does keeping the front sight still HAVE to lead to all sorts of compromise? We obviously have to be able to slide the gauge back and forth with regard to how much precision is required for a given circumstance. And changing that up, in and of itself, is a REALLY important skill to foster. But is having too much precision at one's disposal ever going to be a negative? Unless they're unable to dial it back when necessary. On the contrary, not having enough accessible seems to be the norm for many.



If you can keep the front sight perfectly - and I do mean PERFECTLY - still while pressing the trigger briskly and cleanly, then awesome, you are the man.

Isn't THAT the goal? A stepping stone toward it at any rate?



Most people concentrate on that perfectly still front sight to the detriment of their grip, trigger manipulation, body alignment behind the gun, etc.


I agree that many folks have a tendency to "over aim", potentially to the detriment of a good grip, adequate stance, increased PIP/flinch, etc... But what metric do you use to evaluate adequate "trigger manipulation" if not via watching and correcting its effects on the gun?



I'm going to write a separate piece on this regarding the old "spent case on the front sight" trick.

I look forward to reading it. In particular b/c drills of the sort were a staple of *my* pistol shooting upbringing.



t

[Cypher]

I'm going to write a separate piece on this regarding the old "spent case on the front sight" trick.

When I was in the Army they called that "Dime Box Training". You'd take a prone unsupported firing position cock your unloaded M16 and your partner would put a dime on the front sight. The object being to squeeze the trigger with out knocking the Dime off the sight.

[JustOneGun]

If you can't spare the money, it's even more reason to buy ben's book and dryfire a ton instead of shooting that 1 box of ammo you could have bought instead.



Ha, that's true. It would be good to skip a practice session and buy the book. Good catch.

[Sauer Koch]

When I was in the Army they called that "Dime Box Training". You'd take a prone unsupported firing position cock your unloaded M16 and your partner would put a dime on the front sight. The object being to squeeze the trigger with out knocking the Dime off the sight.

I'm looking forward to reading this. I just used one of those flat, disc shaped batteries, and set it on the front sight of my 226, and was able to shoot 5 DA shots without the battery falling off. I'm not a talented shooter, and have never tried this before; does this mean my trigger skills are adequate with my gun?

[Peally]

I'm looking forward to reading this. I just used one of those flat, disc shaped batteries, and set it on the front sight of my 226, and was able to shoot 5 DA shots without the battery falling off. I'm not a talented shooter, and have never tried this before; does this mean my trigger skills are adequate with my gun?

Depends on what target you're shooting at and what your time constraint is. But as mentioned before, it's largely a fruitless (and goofy and time consuming to set up) drill.

It's not a bad ability to have though, you know you can pull the trigger just fine if needed.

[Jay Cunningham]

But as mentioned before, it's largely a fruitless (and goofy and time consuming to set up) drill.

It's a parlor trick.

[Drang]

They use it in the military to teach trigger control for rifle marksmanship.
Rifle.
Concur that it's not that useful with pistols.
(And most people who run the drill in the Army probably don't really understand it, and only do it because the lesson plan says to.)

[taadski]

It's a parlor trick.

"Parlor trick" or not, it establishes that the shooter can press the trigger without disturbing the gun.

[Jay Cunningham]

"Parlor trick" or not, it establishes that the shooter can press the trigger without disturbing the gun.

When people do this successfully, how long does it usually take them to manipulate the trigger from start to finish?

(also let's please try to stay within the context of practical pistol shooting)

[spinmove_]

When people do this successfully, how long does it usually take them to manipulate the trigger from start to finish?

(also let's please try to stay within the context of practical pistol shooting)

So obviously our objective is to press the trigger as briskly and as cleanly as possible while disturbing the front sight as little as possible (ideally with 0 movement whatsoever). Conversely, we don't want to dry fire with our front sight flying around all Willy nilly which would do little to improve or possibly worsen one's ability to shoot well. So what degree of front sight twitch should we consider acceptable so to know when we're "doing it good enough" versus "that was a bad rep, let's clean that up a bit"?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Jay Cunningham]

The Wall Drill is a good drill.

Focus and goals must be considered.

If the goal is to keep the front sight perfectly still, you will do what you need to do to support that goal. Typically that will be counter-productive to live practical pistol shooting.

If the goal is to aggressively manipulate the trigger with minimal front sight movement, then that will support live practical pistol shooting.

If the front sight wiggles or wobble a little during the press, that's ok. If it dips or jerks or jumps, that's not okay.

If it wiggles enough that a spent case balanced on the front sight probably would have fallen off... that's still probably good enough.

[taadski]

When people do this successfully, how long does it usually take them to manipulate the trigger from start to finish?

(also let's please try to stay within the context of practical pistol shooting)


All shooting can be "practical" depending on what task you're trying to achieve with it. ;) Hence my question above.

I'd say the time it takes to press the trigger doing the "parlor trick" equates somewhat will the time for them to make a very precise aimed shot at their particular skill level.

[Jay Cunningham]

I can take any zero-shooting-experience soccer mom right off the street and get her to successfully dry fire keeping the spent case on the front sight within 5 to 10 minutes.

If I can do this with this skill level in this timeframe, how valuable is this?

[Peally]

"Parlor trick" or not, it establishes that the shooter can press the trigger without disturbing the gun.

To be fair I'm pretty sure I'd fail it and I shoot just fine. I can't tell though because it's a pain in the ass to set up by yourself and my dog is useless with his damned lack of thumbs.

[taadski]

I can take any zero-shooting-experience soccer mom right off the street and get her to successfully dry fire keeping the spent case on the front sight within 5 to 10 minutes.

If I can do this with this skill level in this timeframe, how valuable is this?

I'd put it in the "somewhat valuable" category. In the context that it can be used to draw a shooters attention to the refinement necessary to press the trigger precisely. It's certainly not an end-all, but I've seen it open some eyes in this regard and make a measurable difference in folks' shooting. I'd say that it's valuable enough that if one can't do it repeatably it's probably an indication of a underlying mechanics issue (or just a lack of patience) and they should probably sign up for your soccer-mom clinic. :p

There are several top tier instructors who feel strongly enough about it as a drill to include it in their 'advanced' program curriculums. (shrug)

[taadski]

To be fair I'm pretty sure I'd fail it and I shoot just fine. I can't tell though because it's a pain in the ass to set up by yourself and my dog is useless with his damned lack of thumbs.


You're doing it wrong, bro! You gotta use a wheelie or a DA/SA and plop the casing up there with the hand you're not holding the gun and pressing the trigger with. Then you only have to put the casing up there once per 'string'. ;)

[Cypher]

It's a parlor trick.

It's probably worth mentioning that the people that taught me the Dime Box Drill were the same folks that told me the surprise break was the be all and end all for trigger control

[Jay Cunningham]

They are also likely to be the same folks who teach endless iterations of ball & dummy.

[critter]

It's probably worth mentioning that the people that taught me the Dime Box Drill were the same folks that told me the surprise break was the be all and end all for trigger control

It's pretty much a matter of semantics. "Squeeze the trigger" is not really different than "apply steadily increasing pressure" in practice. After shooting the same gun for a while, there really is no surprise break. I think there's a bit of hair splitting in this thread. The bottom line is that if the gun is stable, the sights are aligned, and you don't change that too much when you apply increasing pressure to the trigger, the bullet will go very close to where the sights were aligned. I dry practice in a room with wood paneling. There's a nice 2in "knot" right in front of me about 6ft away. I aim there. If at any time during the fire I see "light brown" behind the front sight, I understand that would have been a miss and something is a little off. Trigger jerk, grip fault, whatever. When the front sight is steady on the knot, I would have hit the target with a live round. If you have already learned proper fundamentals, dry fire practice is nothing more than repetition of the fundamentals. There is no follow up shot, recoil control, trigger reset during recoil, none of that, however, if you can get your fundamentals to the point where the gun is stable enough that the front sight doesn't jump, bounce, flip you the bird and laugh, whatever, as you hear the click, it's a good thing. Is it the end all of practical shooting? of course not, because it's not shooting at all. It's simply fundamentals practice. Nothing really more nor less.

[Jay Cunningham]

I disagree with "apply steadily increasing pressure".

But I think we're talking past each other now.

[scjbash]

Typically that will be counter-productive


I find most outcome based goals to be counter-productive.

[critter]

I disagree with "apply steadily increasing pressure".

But I think we're talking past each other now.

How would you put into words the physical properties of a good trigger pull? "Decisive" is a way you've described it above, but how is that not confidently, rapidly "applying steadily increasing pressure?" That's a serious question. Exactly how or what in the mechanics is different? Perhaps I'm simply not getting something.

I'm not attempting to be your detractor here if I come across that way. Not at all. I see a difference in wording, or descriptions, but not much of a disagreement at all in what actually occurs.

[Jay Cunningham]

I find most outcome based goals to be counter-productive.

Look, I'm not that smart. Can you explain what you mean?

[scjbash]

Look, I'm not that smart. Can you explain what you mean?

Pat McNamara would explain it much better than I can, but I'll try.

With an outcome based goal you're picking a goal that isn't necessarily indicative of performance/ability, and that might be detrimental to you in the long term. In an effort to reach an outcome based goal people take shortcuts or do other things that harm performance, progress, or whatever. One example might be someone who sets a goal of losing 100 pounds by a certain date. In an effort to make that goal they start starving themselves, taking dangerous pills, throwing up dinner, etc. What they should have been doing is focusing on a performance goal, which is simply performing as well as possible. For that scenario that would mean eating better and exercising every day. Nailing those performance goals and losing 90 pounds is better than losing 100 pounds and being a sick diet pill addict.

You can apply outcome and performance based goals to anything. Business is another common area they apply. It can also apply to shooting, in this case dry fire. If the goal is outcome based, say the front sight remaining perfectly still, the shooter will do things that are detrimental or not even relative to practical/defensive shooting. Like a sloooooow trigger press with a weak grip. A performance based goal would be to grip the gun firmly and press the trigger as straight to the rear as possible at a real world shooting speed. If practiced correctly the side effect is that the front sight will have minimal movement. To compare it to the diet scenario, the shooter is better off performing the grip and press well and the sight being 90% motionless, as opposed to having a weak grip and ten second trigger press to get absolutely no sight movement.

Make sense?

[Jay Cunningham]

I like it!

[critter]

I'm sure Jay, despite not being that smart (:cool:), can describe his thoughts better than I can, but with all other things being equal, to most people "steadily increasing" has a connotation of doing something slowly, while "decisive" (again to most people) has a connotation of "fast".

ok, fair enough. I can see that. This begs the question -- in beginning/beginner pistol classes for self defense taught today, is the concept of proper trigger manipulation taught as being something along the lines of "squeeze" or "applying steady pressure?" Or something else? How is this concept described?

[Jay Cunningham]

ok, fair enough. I can see that. This begs the question -- in beginning/beginner pistol classes for self defense taught today, is the concept of proper trigger manipulation taught as being something along the lines of "squeeze" or "applying steady pressure?" Or something else? How is this concept described?

It's usually taught as: slowly take up slack with steadily increasing pressure until you achieve a surprise break.

[JustOneGun]

I disagree with "apply steadily increasing pressure".

But I think we're talking past each other now.




Yes, I think that is the definition of slapping the trigger...

I always like take up the slack and press the trigger at the same speed start to finish. Somewhere in between it should go bang...

[Jay Cunningham]

I was taught that "slapping the trigger" was gamer bullshit and will get you killed in a gunfight.

However these same people also could not adequately explain grip and how it relates to trigger manipulation... only vaguely relating it to recoil control.

[MistWolf]

I can take any zero-shooting-experience soccer mom right off the street and get her to successfully dry fire keeping the spent case on the front sight within 5 to 10 minutes.

If I can do this with this skill level in this timeframe, how valuable is this?

This mirrors my experience. In fact, it took my young sons about thirty seconds to master this feat. I can do it with just about any firearm I can balance a dime on. I'm not sure it's something that's of help to any shooter except one that has truly a horrible trigger snatch or flinch

[Mr_White]

I really like the concept of applying a continuous increase in pressure to the trigger - the application of pressure can be steeper the easier the shot, and the better the shooter is.

I personally would try to ignore any tactile difference in slack and pressure wall though and simply increase the pressure until the shot breaks (unless the opportunity to take the shot goes away, but that's more than just the base trigger press.)

I think there are a whole lot of ways to think about and do this, as long as the gun isn't moved out of alignment with the target when it goes bang/click. As long as that happens, does it matter how one thinks of it or the words they use to describe it, or if the trigger is powered by a team of hamsters instead of your finger? It's worth exploring different thoughts and feelings and start positions and manners of achieving that, because lots of things come up in the course of applying a good enough trigger press in accordance with a good enough sight picture across infinitely different target difficulties and shooting circumstances.

The ultimate goal that I have in mind is to be able to run the trigger very straight back as fast as I can move my finger, and not move the gun at all. That's a concept and maybe not a true practical possibility, but I wouldn't totally discount the possibility either. The starting points are to be able to pull the trigger without moving the gun at all, and separately to pull the trigger as fast as you can move your finger. Then all the action is in getting more and more of BOTH of those, at the same time. That's the 'getting better' part.

Advice: Buy all of Ben Stoeger's dry practice materials and follow the directions.

[critter]

Yes, I think that is the definition of slapping the trigger...

I always like take up the slack and press the trigger at the same speed start to finish. Somewhere in between it should go bang...

If you are starting from zero, is it not physically impossible to be at the same speed from start to finish? (again not trying to debate splitting hairs, I'm actually trying to see the difference in what is taught now as opposed to the time frame I learned to shoot). A linear acceleration (or increasing pressure) from zero through the break, whether steep (fast), or gradual is what physically occurs during a good trigger pull, is it not?

Maybe the thread is drifting too much. I apologize.

[Mr_White]

I don't dry fire.

I have heard that I should since I first started taking any kind of training but all I was told was "you should dry fire".

So how do I dry fire? What am I trying to accomplish? How do I know I'm doing it right? (Besides the obvious my shooting improves) what about using a laser cartridge?

Thank you for answering my constant pain in the ass questions

You're simply rehearsing the things you will do in live fire, without expenditure of ammo or needing a shooting range. The quantity of reps is only limited by your time and interest, and not so much your bank account, so it's very powerful because you can do it a whole lot.

In dry fire, you can practice basically everything.

You'll need a lot of quality control, because you will habituate whatever you are doing lots of in that dry practice.

The quality control especially needs to be exerted over your grip, sights, and trigger - those are really big failure points for people. The main way you will know though, is by calling your shots in dry practice by paying attention to the sights. You will also need feedback from live fire, which will also tell you whether what you are doing dry is productive or not. And you especially need live fire feedback to establish a useful frame of reference in the first place.

[critter]

I can take any zero-shooting-experience soccer mom right off the street and get her to successfully dry fire keeping the spent case on the front sight within 5 to 10 minutes.

If I can do this with this skill level in this timeframe, how valuable is this?

Ok Jay, I get what you are saying. I've actually never tried to shoot with anything on the front sight. Easy peasy at first, so I loosened my grip, and did that for about a minute and I could do it without dropping the coin. I wound up using only thumb and trigger finger (anyone remember those G.I. Joes from the 60's 70's ;) ) and sure enough in less than a minute I could keep the coin on the front sight firing it that way -- an obviously idiotic manner to shoot a pistol. I'd have to agree that it doesn't mean much.

[Redhat]

This mirrors my experience. In fact, it took my young sons about thirty seconds to master this feat. I can do it with just about any firearm I can balance a dime on. I'm not sure it's something that's of help to any shooter except one that has truly a horrible trigger snatch or flinch

I think it has plenty of use if applied correctly especially on DA or DA/SA handguns. If all we're doing is concentrating on the dime using the slowest possible trigger press then it has little value except with a beginner. After they can keep the coin balanced through slow trigger presses... increase the speed. The idea is to learn to press the trigger smoothly with minimal movement of the pistol. Gaming it by using a unrealistic grip is a waste of time. Application in proper context is important.

[MistWolf]

Be that as it may, after a couple of sessions, the exercise was of little value

[Redhat]

Be that as it may, after a couple of sessions, the exercise was of little value

With what pistol?

[MistWolf]

686, 4006, 1911, Charter Arms Bulldog, Taurus Raging Bull, High Power, Ruger Blackhawk, PPQ, Model 10-

List of rifles is probably even longer

[Redhat]

686, 4006, 1911, Charter Arms Bulldog, Taurus Raging Bull, High Power, Ruger Blackhawk, PPQ, Model 10-

List of rifles is probably even longer

Sounds like you did find it useful.

[Peally]

For fucking around, sure. I've tried it on an HK45 and VP9, doesn't mean I gained anything out of it ;)

[Redhat]

For fucking around, sure. I've tried it on an HK45 and VP9, doesn't mean I gained anything out of it ;)

I'm sure you didn't, but others less experienced seem to.

[MistWolf]

Sounds like you did find it useful.

Only as a tradition, because it seems to impress the neophytes

[Redhat]

Only as a tradition, because it seems to impress the neophytes

As I said, it works good for beginning shooters...excellent instructional tool.

[Peally]

I'm sure you didn't, but others less experienced seem to.

Someone might, but it's widely understood as a waste of time compared to something way easier to set up, like a wall drill.

[MistWolf]

As I said, it works good for beginning shooters...excellent instructional tool.

You missed the part where, after a couple of sessions, it had little value to add and with the exception of shooters with a horrible trigger press or flinch, little real value to start.

Many times we did it because we came across a trigger so horrible, we figured it would be impossible to dry fire without knocking the dime off. Only once were we right- a Rossi 22 revolver with a 25 pound double action pull Dad had. That's not an exaggeration. It's one reason I don't waste time with cheap firearms

[RJ]

To the OP - Thanks, I'm getting a fair bit out of this thread.

On the subject of the dime party trick, I can pretty much do this on demand. I don't find it particularly useful now, since I am now working on speed and accuracy.

Question for Jay, or Mr. White, or basically anyone with more trigger knowledge than me (which is most of y'all :) ): with regard to pressing straight back, in a continuous motion, irrespective of trigger take-up weight or break-weight:

Would this argue for a trigger with a significant proportion of take-up weight to break-weight?

For example: say you had two triggers as follows:

T1 has a light, easy press of 2 lbs, and then breaks at 5.5 lbs.

T2 has more stiffness in the takeup, say 4 lbs, but still breaks at 5.5 lbs.

Would T2 be preferred by the experienced shooter since the heavier take-up would give better physical feedback in terms of resistive force to the shooters finger?

[Peally]

Depends on what you want. Defensive trigger may need a big heavy bastard depending on your personal outlooks regarding trigger safety. Lighter trigger is always better for plain shooting though IMO, you don't see people burning down USPSA stages choosing USPs.

[MistWolf]

My personal preference is for a lighter first stage

[Surf]

Context is key to anything. In addition many of us overlook the fact that people can successfully accomplish similar goals while perhaps performing in slight nuances to how another individual does something. Also the way in which people perceive verbal description and instruction or concepts is very different from one person to another. Which is why discussion on a written forum is often difficult without the aid of inflection of voice, visual cues, facial expressions, hand gestures and actual visual demonstration. Even though face to face instruction or conversation is easier, it still requires different techniques to be effective at making instruction clear. Since people are individuals, the "light bulb" isn't always triggered by the same method or technique.

Having said that and getting back to context, the dime, or brass thing is indeed a "party trick", but even "party tricks" or misdirection has value when done in the right instances, to address the correct needs of a particular individual. I use it more of a focus or focal distraction more than anything else, to again address a very specific and narrow instance. In those perhaps narrow instances, it can have very great value with certain individuals. Even if it is only limited value to a newer shooter, value is value.

I also think ball and dummy drills are of great value when put in the correct context. When I use inert training rounds intermixed with live rounds it isn't so much related to address a "flinch" situation but perhaps to accurately identify a pre or post push situation. Mostly however I use dummy rounds to induce a situation where the desire is to train or ingrain the shooter towards a reflexive use of verbal commands in combination of a stoppage clearance which is important in a team environment. Not quite an apples to apples comparison to the topic of dry fire, but just wanted to point out context of where or why something is used.

Oddly enough I have quite a bit of raw video related to this topic of aiming, grip, wobble zone, trigger control, dry fire, "seeing what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get", etc, and was going to put it together in a video or video(s). I will update if I ever find some time to actually get to it. It might be helpful for some as I also learn more from video description as opposed to just reading conversations.

[SC_Dave]

Context is key to anything. In addition many of us overlook the fact that people can successfully accomplish similar goals while perhaps performing in slight nuances to how another individual does something. Also the way in which people perceive verbal description and instruction or concepts is very different from one person to another. Which is why discussion on a written forum is often difficult without the aid of inflection of voice, visual cues, facial expressions, hand gestures and actual visual demonstration. Even though face to face instruction or conversation is easier, it still requires different techniques to be effective at making instruction clear. Since people are individuals, the "light bulb" isn't always triggered by the same method or technique.

Having said that and getting back to context, the dime, or brass thing is indeed a "party trick", but even "party tricks" or misdirection has value when done in the right instances, to address the correct needs of a particular individual. I use it more of a focus or focal distraction more than anything else, to again address a very specific and narrow instance. In those perhaps narrow instances, it can have very great value with certain individuals. Even if it is only limited value to a newer shooter, value is value.

I also think ball and dummy drills are of great value when put in the correct context. When I use inert training rounds intermixed with live rounds it isn't so much related to address a "flinch" situation but perhaps to accurately identify a pre or post push situation. Mostly however I use dummy rounds to induce a situation where the desire is to train or ingrain the shooter towards a reflexive use of verbal commands in combination of a stoppage clearance which is important in a team environment. Not quite an apples to apples comparison to the topic of dry fire, but just wanted to point out context of where or why something is used.

Oddly enough I have quite a bit of raw video related to this topic of aiming, grip, wobble zone, trigger control, dry fire, "seeing what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get", etc, and was going to put it together in a video or video(s). I will update if I ever find some time to actually get to it. It might be helpful for some as I also learn more from video description as opposed to just reading conversations.

Great information Surf! Where can I find your video's?
SCD

[octagon]

Here is a dry fire question I have that hasn't been brought up yet in this thread or that I found elsewhere. When you dry fire do you rack the slide, use a alternate device to allow some sort of reset or just release and press a dead trigger when dry firing a Glock or similar non resetting trigger? Do you do one way and other times a different way if so when to do each way?

I mostly rack the slide when dry firing to get a normal trigger feel and have the striker drop sound and feel. I will occasionally just repeat the trigger press on a dead trigger and watch the sights to stay in the position and grip. I ask because in Robert Vogel's discussion on dry fire he mentions just pressing the dead trigger repeatedly on a dry fire multiple shot practice and releasing the trigger finger to the point where it would reset not racking the slide or using a trigger resetting device.

[Peally]

In the case of a Glock or other striker fired gun you rack it so the first shot clicks when you draw, then press on the dead trigger for subsequent shots. You really can't be racking the slide for every shot unless it's single shot drills, it doesn't work. For Glocks specifically you can wedge a small item (like a piece of cardboard or credit card) to take the gun a tiny bit out of battery so the trigger can sorta return a little.

DA/SA you pull the DA, then just release the trigger far enough out for SA shots. Same general idea.

[Mr_White]

Here is a dry fire question I have that hasn't been brought up yet in this thread or that I found elsewhere. When you dry fire do you rack the slide, use a alternate device to allow some sort of reset or just release and press a dead trigger when dry firing a Glock or similar non resetting trigger? Do you do one way and other times a different way if so when to do each way?

I do it both ways, and I believe you get different benefits from each. Work the slide so you have the real trigger to emphasize trigger work. Don't work the slide and just press the dead trigger to emphasize continuity of grip and vision. I personally think both are very worthwhile.

[octagon]

Thanks Peally and Mr White. I guess I have been doing it mostly right.

[Mr_White]

To the OP - Thanks, I'm getting a fair bit out of this thread.

On the subject of the dime party trick, I can pretty much do this on demand. I don't find it particularly useful now, since I am now working on speed and accuracy.

Question for Jay, or Mr. White, or basically anyone with more trigger knowledge than me (which is most of y'all :) ): with regard to pressing straight back, in a continuous motion, irrespective of trigger take-up weight or break-weight:

Would this argue for a trigger with a significant proportion of take-up weight to break-weight?

For example: say you had two triggers as follows:

T1 has a light, easy press of 2 lbs, and then breaks at 5.5 lbs.

T2 has more stiffness in the takeup, say 4 lbs, but still breaks at 5.5 lbs.

Would T2 be preferred by the experienced shooter since the heavier take-up would give better physical feedback in terms of resistive force to the shooters finger?

It might work differently for different people, but my gut says that it doesn't matter and whatever difference there is objectively-speaking will be utterly and completely overwhelmed by the power of putting in a ton of work with whichever you choose.

In Glocks, the NY1/Minus connector combo that so many people love, doesn't do anything for me. According to my perception, I can still feel the pressure wall, there is no even pull that doesn't change, and the whole thing is just heavier, and that makes a much bigger difference to me than the 'more equal' relationship between the weight of the slack and weight of the pressure wall. I strongly prefer a Standard Trigger Spring/Minus Connector or Standard Trigger Spring/Standard Connector to the NY1/Minus Connector.

[Mr_White]

Thanks Peally and Mr White. I guess I have been doing it mostly right.

There are lots of good ways to do the right thing. The right thing is to put in work and pay attention so you can make the work productive. You're going to go one way, then another, then back to the first way, then another, then you won't care, etc. forever - that's all just part of the journey.

[octagon]

There are lots of good ways to do the right thing. The right thing is to put in work and pay attention so you can make the work productive. You're going to go one way, then another, then back to the first way, then another, then you won't care, etc. forever - that's all just part of the journey.

Do you focus much on sight movement during the trigger release during dry fire as it is different that live fire with the recoil impulse? If so what do you look for or work at correcting/changing?

[Mr_White]

Do you focus much on sight movement during the trigger release during dry fire as it is different that live fire with the recoil impulse? If so what do you look for or work at correcting/changing?

YES

Calling the shot by paying attention to sights the entire time the gun is mounted, and especially when the striker/hammer falls, is the single most critical thing to do in dry fire. Grip and trigger are also critical, but paying attention to the sights and calling the shot, every time, provides much of the necessary self-diagnostic ability to ferret out any of the other things you are doing wrong, especially in grip and trigger. Calling the shot is the only way to know if you hit in dry fire. And you need to be mega-critical with what you see. Otherwise you are just hoping/guessing that you hit the target. All I am looking for is the gun/sights staying in sufficient alignment with the current target when the gun goes click or I press the dead trigger. Sight movement isn't different in dry vs. live fire, it's just that recoil immediately follows in live fire, causing a lot of mental stress and distraction from noticing, and limiting your visual perception of the sights-when-the-shot-broke to a very short window of time. In dry fire, the sights just sit there and they are easy to see, so make sure you are practicing seeing and paying attention to them.

[octagon]

YES

Calling the shot by paying attention to sights the entire time the gun is mounted, and especially when the striker/hammer falls, is the single most critical thing to do in dry fire. Grip and trigger are also critical, but paying attention to the sights and calling the shot, every time, provides much of the necessary self-diagnostic ability to ferret out any of the other things you are doing wrong, especially in grip and trigger. Calling the shot is the only way to know if you hit in dry fire. And you need to be mega-critical with what you see. Otherwise you are just hoping/guessing that you hit the target. All I am looking for is the gun/sights staying in sufficient alignment with the current target when the gun goes click or I press the dead trigger. Sight movement isn't different in dry vs. live fire, it's just that recoil immediately follows in live fire, causing a lot of mental stress and distraction from noticing, and limiting your visual perception of the sights-when-the-shot-broke to a very short window of time. In dry fire, the sights just sit there and they are easy to see, so make sure you are practicing seeing and paying attention to them.

No I understood the sight movement during trigger press and the stiker release or hammer strike with follow through. I was asking if you consider sight movement when releasing the trigger? Since during dry fire there is no recoil the sights will stay still. In live fire the trigger gets released during recoil or somewhere soon after. Are you looking at sight movement at all during dry fire trigger release or finger moving forward off the dead trigger say in a Glock?

[Mr_White]

No I understood the sight movement during trigger press and the stiker release or hammer strike with follow through. I was asking if you consider sight movement when releasing the trigger? Since during dry fire there is no recoil the sights will stay still. In live fire the trigger gets released during recoil or somewhere soon after. Are you looking at sight movement at all during dry fire trigger release or finger moving forward off the dead trigger say in a Glock?

Oh sorry, I totally misunderstood your question.

Nope, I don't care about that, for the same reason you said - I have the perception of the gun recoiling right then, so the movement induced by letting the trigger forward is pretty irrelevant.

[octagon]

Great Thanks.

[Sal Picante]

This is the best thread ever... Cypher should get extra points for trolling, even if he didn't intend to.

:)

[RJ]

It might work differently for different people, but my gut says that it doesn't matter and whatever difference there is objectively-speaking will be utterly and completely overwhelmed by the power of putting in a ton of work with whichever you choose.

In Glocks, the NY1/Minus connector combo that so many people love, doesn't do anything for me. According to my perception, I can still feel the pressure wall, there is no even pull that doesn't change, and the whole thing is just heavier, and that makes a much bigger difference to me than the 'more equal' relationship between the weight of the slack and weight of the pressure wall. I strongly prefer a Standard Trigger Spring/Minus Connector or Standard Trigger Spring/Standard Connector to the NY1/Minus Connector.

Excellent, thanks Gabe. Much to chew on.

Follow up?

I have see much discussion, rightly so, on the press and achieving continuous motion through the break.

How about on the release?

Say if your trigger press is 500 mS (from index on the slide, to on the trigger, to the break) -- how long does (or should) it take to release past reset / hit trigger guard? 250 mS?

Or is it simply released as fast as humanly possible? Or something more measured?

My question is driven by a realization I am pinning the trigger as the slide cycles on drills like "The Test". I'm trying to get a sense of how to practice better in dry fire so that I have less tendency to do this.

Feel free to tell me I am overthinking this. :cool:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mr_White]

Excellent, thanks Gabe. Much to chew on.

Follow up?

I have see much discussion, rightly so, on the press and achieving continuous motion through the break.

How about on the release?

Say if your trigger press is 500 mS (from index on the slide, to on the trigger, to the break) -- how long does (or should) it take to release past reset / hit trigger guard? 250 mS?

Or is it simply released as fast as humanly possible? Or something more measured?

My question is driven by a realization I am pinning the trigger as the slide cycles on drills like "The Test". I'm trying to get a sense of how to practice better in dry fire so that I have less tendency to do this.

Feel free to tell me I am overthinking this. :cool:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

In a hurry at the moment but the short version is simple: don't worry about any specific numerical timing. Once you see the front sight lift from the now-completed shot, relax your trigger finger forward right away and time the next press to coincide with sufficient alignment re-achieved when the front sight comes back down. I think in many cases the gun may be already done cycling and might even be back on target before you actually get the trigger reset even when trying to go as fast as you can. Video later.

[Mr_White]

My question is driven by a realization I am pinning the trigger as the slide cycles on drills like "The Test". I'm trying to get a sense of how to practice better in dry fire so that I have less tendency to do this.

Zeroing in on this a bit, what you describe there may be totally normal when firing a shot where it requires a lot of good trigger control from you. It's a subconscious form of follow through, spent to really invest in the trigger that you deep down know the entire shot is going to hinge upon getting exactly right.

To maybe illustrate my last post to you in this thread, skip to 0:33 of this video where the bill drill starts. Watch the timing of my finger working the trigger, the action cycling, and the muzzle coming back on target. That's working the trigger close to as fast as I can, even without regard to accuracy (.2-ish splits.)

Just let your finger forward and reset the trigger as soon as you are done firing the current shot. Clearest way to know that is you see the front sight lift.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rc7s-z7RBw

[Cypher]

This is the best thread ever... Cypher should get extra points for trolling, even if he didn't intend to.

:)

Why would you think I was trolling?

[scjbash]

Advice: Buy all of Ben Stoeger's dry practice materials and follow the directions.

I forgot I bought Dry Fire Training at least a year ago and never read it. I dug it up last night. He has aggressive par times in it that he says should equate to GM level. Did you adjust any of the times for concealed carry, and if so would you happen to still have the times you used?

[GJM]

I think absolute times are irrelevant. What is important is you start at a time you can perform the manipulation faithfully, and then use time to track your improvement.

[Mr_White]

I forgot I bought Dry Fire Training at least a year ago and never read it. I dug it up last night. He has aggressive par times in it that he says should equate to GM level. Did you adjust any of the times for concealed carry, and if so would you happen to still have the times you used?

Sorry, no specific times, but the only adjustment I entertain is on reloads. Those do cost be a bit with concealment. Otherwise no.

[scjbash]

Sorry, no specific times, but the only adjustment I entertain is on reloads. Those do cost be a bit with concealment. Otherwise no.

He has a par time of 1.2 to draw, get a good sight picture on a blank wall, and make a good trigger press. The par time for drawing and getting a sight picture on a target but not pressing the trigger is .07. I might understand it after running them, but the additional half second for adding a trigger press seems odd to me.

.07 for a strong side concealment draw. I'm going to need some extra caffeine for that one. :D

[Mr_White]

He has a par time of 1.2 to draw, get a good sight picture on a blank wall, and make a good trigger press. The par time for drawing and getting a sight picture on a target but not pressing the trigger is .07. I might understand it after running them, but the additional half second for adding a trigger press seems odd to me.

.07 for a strong side concealment draw. I'm going to need some extra caffeine for that one. :D

The reason to separate the raw draw time goal from the time goal associated with the trigger press is to keep people from doing bad sights and trigger trying to beat the beep when pushing on their draw hard. Draw fast, then shoot carefully enough for the target.

.07 seconds is faster than I think I would chase. Try .7 instead. ;)

In all seriousness, for strong side from concealment, I'd probably spend a little time trying .7, but realistically, 1 second may be a really stiff goal. Push it as hard as you can though and see where it leads you. Don't saddle yourself with the yoke of low expectations. See what you can do.

[scjbash]

The reason to separate the raw draw time goal from the time goal associated with the trigger press is to keep people from doing bad sights and trigger trying to beat the beep when pushing on their draw hard. Draw fast, then shoot carefully enough for the target.

.07 seconds is faster than I think I would chase. Try .7 instead. ;)

In all seriousness, for strong side from concealment, I'd probably spend a little time trying .7, but realistically, 1 second may be a really stiff goal. Push it as hard as you can though and see where it leads you. Don't saddle yourself with the yoke of low expectations. See what you can do.

That makes a lot of sense.

.07 is a wee bit different than .7 lol. I think I'll stick with .7.

I can get shots on a USPSA target under 1 second but where they hit is a crapshoot at that point. My fastest cold A zone hit at seven yards is .97, but it could have just as easily been a C or D. My fastest A hit warm is .90. I've had some C's and D's down to .86. I'm hoping that improving my dry practice regimen can get my ability to make good hits catch up to my hand speed.

[Peally]

I can barely make .7

.07 is gonna be a mofo but at least you'll make uber-GM and possibly break the sound barrier:D

For the record, his times are for a respectable GM level shooter, but they can be pushed lower by those sufficiently skilled. They're hard ass times because they're no-compromise ones meant to push you and force you to dedicate the time to making them. When you do it's a great feeling.

[Cypher]

What happened when you did this:



I know the other thread was mostly about live fire, but everything Jay suggested can be applied to dry fire as well.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w75/Tom_Morford/image_zpsf1tqb5bl.jpeg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/Tom_Morford/media/image_zpsf1tqb5bl.jpeg.html)

OK so I've altered my grip as Jay suggested. My point of aim was the black spot on the yellow sticky pad at 7yards (give or take a foot) with my Glock 19.

I am consistently hitting the same location. I just seem to be an inch or three to the left.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w75/Tom_Morford/image_zps4r4z1irs.jpeg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/Tom_Morford/media/image_zps4r4z1irs.jpeg.html)

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w75/Tom_Morford/image_zpsh1lhikjw.jpeg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/Tom_Morford/media/image_zpsh1lhikjw.jpeg.html)