Strong hand thumb....what do?

[spinmove_]

Ok, so something that I've been having an issue with SHO/WHO shooting consistency as well as shooting JUST left of POA freestyle. Part of this, I think, boils down to not being certain of what I should be doing with my shooting hand thumb.

What am I supposed to do with it when shooting freestyle? Should there be any tension in it? Should I be applying pressure with it against the frame? Should it be completely dead and easily moved while the rest of my hand is a tightly clenched fist? Should it have the same rigidity as the rest of my hand and be neutral? Should it be touching the frame at all?

What am I supposed to do with it when shooting one handed? I see some advocate having it touching other fingers or pushing into the frame or some even say it needs to be flagged. If it's flagged, is it completely vertical and applying pressure to the frame in that way or should it be flagged away from the frame?

This may seem like a silly question, but the more I think about it the more I seem to be confused on what to do with it.

[Redhat]

Ok, so something that I've been having an issue with SHO/WHO shooting consistency as well as shooting JUST left of POA freestyle. Part of this, I think, boils down to not being certain of what I should be doing with my shooting hand thumb.

What am I supposed to do with it when shooting freestyle? Should there be any tension in it? Should I be applying pressure with it against the frame? Should it be completely dead and easily moved while the rest of my hand is a tightly clenched fist? Should it have the same rigidity as the rest of my hand and be neutral? Should it be touching the frame at all?

What am I supposed to do with it when shooting one handed? I see some advocate having it touching other fingers or pushing into the frame or some even say it needs to be flagged. If it's flagged, is it completely vertical and applying pressure to the frame in that way or should it be flagged away from the frame?

This may seem like a silly question, but the more I think about it the more I seem to be confused on what to do with it.

A few questions:

- What type shooting are you focusing on...competition, or combat?
- Have you experimented with the different techniques you mentioned? If so, what were the results?

Now my take. I assume that in combat /defensive situation, I will grip the gun tight with all fingers and thumb so the idea of maintaining "lazy" thumbs doesn't seem realistic to me. One option you might consider is moving the shooting hand thumb away from the gun and over the top / outside of the support hand thumb joint. Here you may be able to apply strong pressure without affecting the gun itself.

For one-hand only shooting, I lock my thumb down tight.

Ultimately, I think you will have to try different ways to see which is most effective for you.

[spinmove_]

A few questions:

- What type shooting are you focusing on...competition, or combat?
- Have you experimented with the different techniques you mentioned? If so, what were the results?

Now my take. I assume that in combat /defensive situation, I will grip the gun tight with all fingers and thumb so the idea of maintaining "lazy" thumbs doesn't seem realistic to me. One option you might consider is moving the shooting hand thumb away from the gun and over the top / outside of the support hand thumb joint. Here you may be able to apply strong pressure without affecting the gun itself.

For one-hand only shooting, I lock my thumb down tight.

Ultimately, I think you will have to try different ways to see which is most effective for you.

Functionally I don't see a ton of difference between competitive shooting and defense shooting (not a huge fan of the term "combat shooting". I'm a civilian, not an infantry door kicker in Afghanistan). But, generally, more defensive oriented shooting.

Have I experimented with the above techniques? Yes, but loosely. I've been on the "dead thumb technique" for a little while (don't know for how long exactly) and it got me thinking as I've literally experimented with almost every other aspect of grip except this and maybe something else that I've not thought of yet.

After having given this further thought I'm thinking that I'm probably overthinking this and need to stop overthinking and overly concentrating on what my strong hand thumb does in freestyle. One handed shooting on the other hand, I probably just need to pick something and test it out for a while. I did try flagging my thumb, but that didn't seem to work out all that well for me. Seemed awkward and managing recoil that way felt weird.

[Redhat]

I don't want to offend sensibilities regarding "combat" vs "defensive" shooting so call it what ever you want, just trying to distinguish between that type vs say bullseye or target shooting. From what you've posted so far, I've seen nothing about what problems you're having or what improvements you'd like to see.

[spinmove_]

I don't want to offend sensibilities regarding "combat" vs "defensive" shooting so call it what ever you want, just trying to distinguish between that type vs say bullseye or target shooting. From what you've posted so far, I've seen nothing about what problems you're having or what improvements you'd like to see.

Ok, so here's some hard numbers and more concrete perspective. I'm consistently grouping 1" to the left of POA at 15ft. (or 7yds, whatever), that means I'll be 2" left at 30ft., 3" left at 45ft., 4" left at 60ft., and 5" left at 75ft. So at 25 yds, not only are my groups going to be opening up from that 1" ragged hole but my shots will also be grossly left of where I want that grouping to be. I could be slow and precise or shooting at a more rapid pace doing Mozambique Drills and I see the same results. Basically, it doesn't matter if I'm target shooting or action shooting. I'm having a consistent problem.

So the problem would be that me as a shooter is off by a consistently measured metric which needs to be corrected. I'm trying to correct whatever is causing that offset in POA. The improvement that I would like to see is actually shooting POI of where my POA happens to be.

[critter]

For one handed shooting (I had to check to see what I'm actually doing), I do apply lateral pressure with the large joint of the thumb, fingers pressing the grip straight back into the "V". The primary tension is still in the forearm.

Two handed shooting, thumbs are relaxed and forward toward the target. I don't "grip" tightly with the fingers or thumbs, but rather rotate my right should creating isometric pressure between my right palm and "cupped" left hand fingers. Most of the tension of the grip is in larger muscles. This is the way I was taught to shoot, er, way back in the 70's. It works well for me.

disclaimer: not a qualified instructor, nor expert in the field, nor is what I do necessarily "correct". Just a long(er than I'd care to admit) time avid shooter.

[Redhat]

Ok, so here's some hard numbers and more concrete perspective. I'm consistently grouping 1" to the left of POA at 15ft. (or 7yds, whatever), that means I'll be 2" left at 30ft., 3" left at 45ft., 4" left at 60ft., and 5" left at 75ft. So at 25 yds, not only are my groups going to be opening up from that 1" ragged hole but my shots will also be grossly left of where I want that grouping to be. I could be slow and precise or shooting at a more rapid pace doing Mozambique Drills and I see the same results. Basically, it doesn't matter if I'm target shooting or action shooting. I'm having a consistent problem.

So the problem would be that me as a shooter is off by a consistently measured metric which needs to be corrected. I'm trying to correct whatever is causing that offset in POA. The improvement that I would like to see is actually shooting POI of where my POA happens to be.

Where are the sights when the shot breaks?
Have you adjusted the sights?
What size / type target are you using?
How much / little finger is in the trigger?
Have you had someone who knows what to look for watch you shoot?

[critter]

Ok, so here's some hard numbers and more concrete perspective. I'm consistently grouping 1" to the left of POA at 15ft. ..

if it is that consistent, the first thing I'd do is put the pistol in a shooting vise and check sight alignment with 4-5 shot groups using a variety of ammo. Generally, a fault doesn't generate that level of consistency. If a vise isn't available, use a good rest. You can also use a laser cartridge to check if it's left of the aim point.

[spinmove_]

Where are the sights when the shot breaks?
Have you adjusted the sights?
What size / type target are you using?
How much / little finger is in the trigger?
Have you had someone who knows what to look for watch you shoot?

To my vision? Equal height, equal light.

No as I seem to have this consistency with almost every pistol I've picked up lately.

Any target size and type ranging from a full sized B8 to a plain 3x5 card.

Doesn't matter how much finger I use. Shots go to the same hole roughly.

That's the one thing I haven't been able to do yet.


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[Redhat]

To my vision? Equal height, equal light.

No, where are the sights in relation to the target (sight picture) and sight alignment


No as I seem to have this consistency with almost every pistol I've picked up lately.

Are you shooting with both eyes open or one closed...try each and see what happens. Are you tilting the gun left?


Any target size and type ranging from a full sized B8 to a plain 3x5 card.

Try shooting at 25m and see how your grouping looks.

Doesn't matter how much finger I use. Shots go to the same hole roughly.

That's the one thing I haven't been able to do yet.


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[spinmove_]

Sights and sight alignment is dead center POA when the shot breaks.

I'm currently shooting with only my dominant eye (that happens to be my left eye, I'm right handed). Shooting with both eyes open gives me the same result. I'm not tilting the gun counter-clockwise nor do I appear to be pushing the muzzle left. Although now that I think about it, it's possible that I'm not properly C-clamping with my primary hand.

Shooting at 25 yds. gives me the ~5" left of POA that I'm able to predict at 7yds. Sometimes less.

[Redhat]

You might try closing your left eye and shooting with your right if you can. When you're shooting left eye / right hand, it can change POI a bit. I know when I shoot rifle through a scope, if I shoot RT only then change to both eyes open, my POI will change.

Just for experimentation, you might also try shooting left handed at 7 yds.

I doubt your thumbs are causing you to shoot left though.

[Peally]

You might try closing your left eye and shooting with your right if you can. When you're shooting left eye / right hand, it can change POI a bit. I know when I shoot rifle through a scope, if I shoot RT only then change to both eyes open, my POI will change.

Just for experimentation, you might also try shooting left handed at 7 yds.

I doubt your thumbs are causing you to shoot left though.

Rifles and pistols are completely different when it comes to eye dominance.

[Redhat]

Rifles and pistols are completely different when it comes to eye dominance.

IME...not really except for the fact you can move your head when shooting a pistol.

[Peally]

IME...not really except for the fact you can move your head when shooting a pistol.

Thus completely different. The body automatically figures out exactly what needs to be done with a pistol. Rifles can't be floated around in front of you to do that, you're forced to shoulder them.

[Redhat]

... nor do I appear to be pushing the muzzle left...

If we think about this statement:

If the sights don't need windage adjustment, the sight picture is good and you're not pushing or canting the muzzle left what else could cause hitting left of POA?

[Redhat]

Thus completely different. The body automatically figures out exactly what needs to be done with a pistol. Rifles can't be floated around in front of you to do that, you're forced to shoulder them.

I would have to disagree with the idea that the body automatically does the right thing in this case. I've watched too many students try to overcome this issue on their own without success. Tilting the head, turning the head or unconsciously tilting the handgun as they attempt to get the sights lined up with their dominant eye, disrupting natural point of aim. In some instances this all needs to be worked through for them to find what works.

[spinmove_]

You might try closing your left eye and shooting with your right if you can. When you're shooting left eye / right hand, it can change POI a bit. I know when I shoot rifle through a scope, if I shoot RT only then change to both eyes open, my POI will change.

Just for experimentation, you might also try shooting left handed at 7 yds.

I doubt your thumbs are causing you to shoot left though.

I've shot with my right eye only right handed. Same result.

I can try shooting left handed freestyle. That'll definitely be kinda awkward though.

I've had an issue where when I gripped with my strong hand tightly my strong hand thumb pressed against the rear of the frame and would tweak the rear of the gun to the right, obviously pushing the muzzle slightly left. The more I think about it, the more my theory is shifting to me possibly sympathetically milking the grip slightly by not C-clamping with my strong hand properly.


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[Peally]

I would have to disagree with the idea that the body automatically does the right thing in this case. I've watched too many students try to overcome this issue on their own without success. Tilting the head, turning the head or unconsciously tilting the handgun as they attempt to get the sights lined up with their dominant eye, disrupting natural point of aim. In some instances this all needs to be worked through for them to find what works.

Do they realize which eye is their dominant one? If they're screwing something that simple up their shooting has cancer and needs to be corrected :D

[spinmove_]

If we think about this statement:

If the sights don't need windage adjustment, the sight picture is good and you're not pushing or canting the muzzle left what else could cause hitting left of POA?

And that's why I said "appear to be" and not "definitely doesn't move". Obviously there's something wrong, hence why I'm trying to narrow it down. What do you think might be the most logical culprit in this scenario?


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[Wondering Beard]

Spinmove, where are your sights after you break the shot, both live and dry fire?

Do you perceive any movement in where the front sight is as you are pressing back the trigger?

The reason for my questions is that I wonder if your trigger pull might be uneven (as in it moves where the gun is pointing as you break the shot). Maybe you're snatching the trigger when you think your sights are dead on? A good way to check for that, I believe, is in checking the follow through phase and that may tell you things.

As to thumbs, a high flagged thumb (with some tension, not just floating there) is good for enabling the shooter to move the gun as little as possible when pressing the trigger, but it isn't great for recoil control. A locked down thumb is good for recoil control but makes it harder to get a clean trigger press. That's for one handed shooting of course.

[spinmove_]

Spinmove, where are your sights after you break the shot, both live and dry fire?

Do you perceive any movement in where the front sight is as you are pressing back the trigger?

The reason for my questions is that I wonder if your trigger pull might be uneven (as in it moves where the gun is pointing as you break the shot). Maybe you're snatching the trigger when you think your sights are dead on? A good way to check for that, I believe, is in checking the follow through phase and that may tell you things.

As to thumbs, a high flagged thumb (with some tension, not just floating there) is good for enabling the shooter to move the gun as little as possible when pressing the trigger, but it isn't great for recoil control. A locked down thumb is good for recoil control but makes it harder to get a clean trigger press. That's for one handed shooting of course.

Sights return right on or pretty close to POA in live fire. Sights don't move from POA in dry fire. Verified by aiming at the letter A on a USPSA scaled target or the numbers on a Dot Torture test target pasted to my wall.

I'll double check my follow through tonight during dry fire to see if I find anything there.


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[Redhat]

And that's why I said "appear to be" and not "definitely doesn't move". Obviously there's something wrong, hence why I'm trying to narrow it down. What do you think might be the most logical culprit in this scenario?


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Sitting here at my keyboard...1) based on the fact you're shooting cross dominant, that might be the cause or 2) You are pushing the gun left with your firing hand grip fingers as you tighten up in anticipation of the recoil.

Try some ball and dummy exercises and you might be able to ID what's happening yourself. Best advice is to get another set of experienced eyes on your technique. Self diagnosis is tuff as our perceptions are not always reality.