Area 1 WTF! Some people need retraining. Serious safety screw up

[Lomshek]

https://youtu.be/Z3SpgGClpv4

Didn't want to shit on GJM's thread but just saw this on a USPSA FaceBook page.

Anyone here see this happen?

ETA - Title should have said screw ups (plural). Lots wrong there.

[Peally]

Darwin works in mysterious ways.

People get complacent waiting for the RO to call all clear, this is God's way of weeding those people out.

[BaiHu]

Wow! I thought the big deal was the guy on the 180 line taking video at first, but then the brass/tape rats at the end just freaked me the eff out :eek:

[Lomshek]

Wow! I thought the big deal was the guy on the 180 line taking video at first, but then the brass/tape rats at the end just freaked me the eff out :eek:

She was well back from the 180 on the 184 line and he was safely engaging a target at the 178 line. What could go wrong? :p

[El Cid]

Some folks just operate on a higher level of stupid.

[Totem Polar]

I quote, without further comment:

It is called the normalization of deviance, and it is deadly. The normalization of deviance is defined as: “The gradual process through which unacceptable practice or standards become acceptable. As the deviant behavior is repeated without catastrophic results, it becomes the social norm for the organization.”

[Lomshek]

I quote, without further comment:

It is called the normalization of deviance, and it is deadly. The normalization of deviance is defined as: “The gradual process through which unacceptable practice or standards become acceptable. As the deviant behavior is repeated without catastrophic results, it becomes the social norm for the organization.”

Absolutely. When I'm running a stage more than once I've found the peanut gallery slowly creeps up closer and closer to the 180 line to the point that a similar situation can happen like the camera lady. I've learned to designate a "peanut gallery zone" to keep the spectators well clear. "No one goes past this line until I call clear. If a shooter breaks the 180 you'll be staring down the muzzle if you stand over there." If someone gets a gun pointed at them it'll be because the shooter broke the 360 line not the 180.

[hufnagel]

I quote, without further comment:

It is called the normalization of deviance, and it is deadly. The normalization of deviance is defined as: “The gradual process through which unacceptable practice or standards become acceptable. As the deviant behavior is repeated without catastrophic results, it becomes the social norm for the organization.”

Not a match, but I recall a thread (started by me) recounting an incident (involving me) that is still a good example of this.

I'd hope, for my safety, I'd strongly encourage a group pow wow surrounding this incident, right after it happens, and if the proper quantity of ass chewing didn't occur, along with demonstrated attitude remediation from all I'd depart from the match.

I get that people want to get "cool" videos of them doing "cool" shooting shit. However place cameras at various locations, and edit it all together later.

[rsa-otc]

Watching that video what comes to my mind is where were those folks when the stage started? Is this actually a RO issue? After the first lady early in the video (she's questionable), the next three folks you see are the RO with the timer, the score keeper/2nd RO and behind them a gentleman who is taking video with a cell phone. They would naturally be following behind the shooter. You get a false reading on the safety of the situation because this is a first person video and you don't know where the gun is pointing as the shooter turns to retreat up the bay to the next position. That last person is truly a safety issue. Where was he at the beginning of the stage and why was he were he was as the shooter rounded the barricade??? If he was there at the beginning of the stage this is a RO issue for starting the stage without making sure the bay is completely clear. If that last person was behind the line at the start and moved up range after the buzzer this is strictly his issue and fault. The RO's are supposed to keep their eyes on what the shooter is doing so they can stop him if they see a safety issue or need to access a procedural. They wouldn't get to see the safety issue until the shooter and they rounded the corner. It seems to me that the last person was heading up range staring at the targets when the shooter came around the corner, not pasting or picking up brass. It fact I believe it is policy that major matches are lost brass matches and the brass whores (I'm one of them LOL) can't scavenge brass.

[LittleLebowski]

Wow. Idiots.

[Talionis]

I make no comment about fault, but I will provide some context.

The shooter had completely shot the stage, then experienced a brain malfunction at the precise moment he was about to hear "if you are finished, unload and show clear" and decided to do a runner to try to pick up steel back at the beginning of the stage. The person who was nearly muzzled was one of the stage RO's, not a "brass/tape rat". The stage briefing included specific mention that the targets at the beginning of the stage would be scored behind the shooter, which that RO was in the process of doing. The shooter had, until that point, followed the normal stage plan on that stage to a tee, which I am sure had lulled the RO into an unfortunate sense of complacency after watching hundreds of shooters doing exactly the same thing for two full days by that point. I am glad that the shooter maintained awareness and nobody ended up with a gun pointed at them.

[RJ]

Wow. That was hard to watch.

[Peally]

...The stage briefing included specific mention that the targets at the beginning of the stage would be scored behind the shooter, which that RO was in the process of doing...

I get trying to save time but that is stupid as hell.

[Lomshek]

I get trying to save time but that is stupid as hell.

It's pretty common on long field courses but works best (safest) on specific course designs. We do it at my matches when the stage allows because it can save 30 minutes off the match day.

Trying to do it on a "back and forth" stage where the shooter is required to advance and retreat in "hallways" with lots of barriers that obscure vision makes it more dangerous.

As Talionis points out (thaks for the info) if the shooter suddenly brain farts and decides to add 10 seconds to their time by engaging a missed target at the other end of the stage it causes issues.

My best fix for this is whoever is calling the hits for the scorekeeper needs to be aware of missed targets and if the shooter obviously left something un-engaged then everyone holds back until the RO calls clear in case just this happens. I'll send this out to my peeps as a learning experience.

[Peally]

I know why its done, but I don't agree with it. If I'm shooting a stage no matter how shittily I don't want a single person on it that I need to spend time thinking about avoiding, no matter where I want to run around.

[Jim Watson]

"Scoring behind the shooter" seems not a good idea, especially in big broad field courses like that.

The "video everything" culture is another source of risk.

I had a spectating friend up nearly as close as the woman at the 9 second mark. I watched the first shooter go through and went and got her to move farther off the plane of the stage.

Hereabouts, part of the walkthrough is "Everybody else stand behind that line."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Adding 30 minutes to the match is nothing to the time added when the scene is frozen and you wait for the law to show up and talk to everyone. It is a pain as some folks want to 'flee' the scene.

There is nothing but stupid (what an insight) in this one. Brass pecking fowls are foul. They don't tape and slow us down. At our range, there are strict rules. You pick up your brass only. If you try to pick up after a match, the range owner bans you. In fact, they set a trap for a brass pecker who was doing that and banned him.

[Jim Watson]

At our range, there are strict rules. You pick up your brass only. If you try to pick up after a match, the range owner bans you.

Sounds strange. Couple of the ranges I shoot on, brass pickup is allowed ONLY after the match.

[Peally]

You get banned after a club match and there's just unwanted brass sitting in the berms? Does he personally go around combing it up for himself?

[Clusterfrack]

She was well back from the 180 on the 184 line and he was safely engaging a target at the 178 line. What could go wrong? :p

I agree that folks should stand well back from the 180, but the wide angle lens on the hatcam makes her seem much closer to the 180 than she probably was.

[cclaxton]

Let's give some credit to the shooter who did not fire a round once he saw a person down range. A shoot or no shoot decision still has to be made by each and every one of us when we are the shooter.

[eb07]

Same thing happened in Area 2, Lake Havasu Arizona a few years back


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUzTIKAbI3k

[Duelist]

Same thing happened in Area 2, Lake Havasu Arizona a few years back


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUzTIKAbI3k

That one looks like an RSO problem. I think, at least from this MMQ chair.

[BaiHu]

Same thing happened in Area 2, Lake Havasu Arizona a few years back


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUzTIKAbI3k

I remember seeing that one and thinking how the eff did that guy get so lucky that not one round shot through and nailed him DRT :eek:

[rsa-otc]

OK I get it now, the shooter had already engaged those targets earlier and decided to backtrack and reengage the missed targets. The last guy was following an already agreed upon procedure to reset and paste targets already engaged and behind the shooter. Unfortunately that procedure went out the door when the shooter decided to retreat and reengage said targets. It's a bad procedure. Everyone should stay at the back of the bay with exception of the 2 RO's until the stage is complete and the shooter has holstered his weapon. There should be no exceptions to that, mitigating the chance of something like this happening.

[Lomshek]

I've had instances where something like this has happened on stages I'm running. The COF has targets arrayed out across a wide expanse so the shooter is engaging targets closer to the 180 than on a simpler stage. While the RO is busy focusing on issuing the shooter commands someone from behind wanders closer to the 180 for a better view/pic.

Regardless of the 180 rule it's unsafe and something I've gotten more savvy toward with experience to warn spectators about and designate a safe spectating area.

15356


Here you can see the blue barrels the guy was hiding behind and got caught off guard when the shooter backtracked. Was he heading out to re-set the swinger and poppers but couldn't see the shooter because of the banner (I don't care for solid walls at all)? I could see mistaking the cessation of gun fire as the shooter making clear and the guy walking that way but still behind the shooter as (he thinks) the shooter is showing clear.

15357


15358

After more time to chew on this my take is it's less of a "who's responsible for this shit show" than an opportunity to learn from a compounding of errors.

[Talionis]

OK I get it now, the shooter had already engaged those targets earlier and decided to backtrack and reengage the missed targets. The last guy was following an already agreed upon procedure to reset and paste targets already engaged and behind the shooter.... Everyone should stay at the back of the bay with exception of the 2 RO's until the stage is complete and the shooter has holstered his weapon. There should be no exceptions to that, mitigating the chance of something like this happening.

Close, but not quite. The guy seen near the barrels was in fact one of the stage RO's, not a squad dude resetting. I suspect he had become complacent with how everyone shot that particular stage, and got farther forward than he was supposed to in hopes of of speeding things along.

[GJM]

The Havasu deal was truely scary, and it is miracle that did not turn out to be a tragedy.

In the Area 1 instance, the shooter did something unanticipated, and the squad appeared to immediately recognize it and call out loudly. I see far worse nearly every time there are other shooters at the range I frequent.

[Talionis]

I've had instances where something like this has happened on stages I'm running. The COF has targets arrayed out across a wide expanse so the shooter is engaging targets closer to the 180 than on a simpler stage. While the RO is busy focusing on issuing the shooter commands someone from behind wanders closer to the 180 for a better view/pic.

Regardless of the 180 rule it's unsafe and something I've gotten more savvy toward with experience to warn spectators about and designate a safe spectating area.

I've been on that particular stage, and I believe you are being misled regarding the safety of the photographer shown. If you look, you can see that she is nearly at the back of the bay. As has already been mentioned, the wide angle of the GoPro does not allow one to accurately judge angles and distances, so you'll have to take my word for it that a shooter would have to significantly violate the 180 for her to be looking at the muzzle.

[Lomshek]

I've been on that particular stage, and I believe you are being misled regarding the safety of the photographer shown. If you look, you can see that she is nearly at the back of the bay. As has already been mentioned, the wide angle of the GoPro does not allow one to accurately judge angles and distances, so you'll have to take my word for it that a shooter would have to significantly violate the 180 for her to be looking at the muzzle.

Can't argue with that. Those lenses do jack up the perspective.

[Talionis]

The Havasu deal was truely scary, and it is miracle that did not turn out to be a tragedy.

In the Area 1 instance, the shooter did something unanticipated, and the squad appeared to immediately recognize it and call out loudly. I see far worse nearly every time there are other shooters at the range I frequent.

Fortunately the shooter at Havasu is quite accurate, and the guy downrange wasn't hiding behind a target he was in the process of engaging. Due to the design of USPSA stages, the downrange guy wasn't really in danger of a shoot through happening since he was behind a wall. It is very fortunate that the shooter and RO identified that there was a problem before they got past the wall.

[GJM]

From what I understand, the RO and brass picker down range were the last to realize what was happening.

[Talionis]

From what I understand, the RO and brass picker down range were the last to realize what was happening.

Then it is especially fortunate that the shooter maintained enough awareness even through the reload to perceive that he should stop long before he got to where he would have shot near the brass picker!

[GJM]

USPSA speaks:

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/uspsa/man-down.pdf

[Lost River]

I quote, without further comment:

It is called the normalization of deviance, and it is deadly. The normalization of deviance is defined as: “The gradual process through which unacceptable practice or standards become acceptable. As the deviant behavior is repeated without catastrophic results, it becomes the social norm for the organization.”



That just described a law enforcement agency I know all too well. Half-assed is good enough, because that is the way we have always done it.

[PNWTO]

That just described a law enforcement agency I know all too well. Half-assed is good enough, because that is the way we have always done it.

I think every SNCO in the conventional forces has this written inside the cover of their green book.

[MSparks909]

Pardon my ignorance but was the Havasu shooter our own GJM? I've only seen a few videos of GJM shoot but it looks kind of like him. If it's not just ignore my dumbass.

[JM Campbell]

Let's give some credit to the shooter who did not fire a round once he saw a person down range. A shoot or no shoot decision still has to be made by each and every one of us when we are the shooter.

Been there done that, on the same range/club that Glen was commenting about. RSO was telling me I had more targets and why didn't I continue the course of fire as I was unloading and showing clear.......ummmm mouth breather down range = complete stop.


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[45dotACP]

USPSA speaks:

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/uspsa/man-down.pdf
Interesting...So no split scoring...But what is USPSAs official position on the practice?

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[Peally]

There is a stupid rule allowing it if it's stated in the stage brief and the shooter's proxy is allowed to view the hits on their behalf.