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ToddG
12-19-2011, 12:05 PM
Please read the rules (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1837-Drill-of-the-Week) before participating in this thread.

Week 12: SWYNTS
results may be posted until 11:59pm EST on Monday 26-December-2011.

Range: 5yd
Target: 6" circle, 3x5 card, 2" circle (see here (http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2-two-inch-and-1-six-inch-circles.pdf) for 6" and 2" on same sheet of paper)
Start position: holstered (if possible)
Rounds fired: 75

Ideally, this exercise is shot from concealment or a duty rig. However, if you want to use race gear or must shoot from a ready position rather than holstered, simply indicate it with your results.


Draw and fire 5 rounds at the 6" circle as fast as you can guarantee good hits. Record your time and your hits. Repeat for a total of five runs, 25rd. If you get more than three misses in the entire string of 25 at 6", you need to start again and slow down.
Draw and fire 5 rounds at the 3x5 card as fast as you can guarantee good hits. Record your time and your hits. Repeat for a total of five runs, 25rd. If you get more than three misses in the entire string of 25 at the 3x5, you need to start again and slow down.
Draw and fire 5 rounds at the 2" circle as fast as you can guarantee good hits. Record your time and your hits. Repeat for a total of five runs, 25rd. If you get more than three misses in the entire string of 25 at the 2", you need to start again and slow down.


The goal of the drill is to get familiar with how fast you can go depending on the difficulty of the shot. If a particular size target requires you to switch from shooting fast to bullseye slowfire mode in order to get hits, that is acceptable.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

starting position (concealed, duty, open holster, or ready position)
total time and score for string 1
total time and score for string 2
total time and score for string 3
any times you had to start over on a string due to misses


Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

C45P312
12-19-2011, 10:50 PM
starting position: Glock 17 in Safariland 6004 shot cold right after work
total time and score for string 1 (6in Circle): 17.47 sec 22/25 3.548 avg time
total time and score for string 2 (3x5 Card): 37.81 sec 22/25 7.53 avg time
total time and score for string 3 (2in Circle): 66.38 sec 23/25 13.27 avg time
any times you had to start over on a string due to misses: N/A

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/C45P312/Firearms/e02eb642.jpg

KeeFus
12-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Starting position: holstered and concealed behind Sig-Tac vest.
Pistol M&P 4.25 " barrel.

Total time String 1: 15.47 (-3)
Total time String 2: 30.23 (-3)
Total time String 3: 47.01 (-3)

I had to re-start string 2 b/c after the second relay I was down 4! Those times were: 4.97 (-2) and 7.94 (-2).

After this drill I decided to shoot my first FAST drill w/ the M&P ( I remember shooting 1 about a year ago w/ the G-17 and it was around 6 second mark). First run: 5.99 (-1 body); Second run: 5.54 (-1 body); Third run: 5.21 (-0) :p. I'm losing a lot of time sighting in on the first shot. All 3 FAST runs were over 2 seconds from draw to first shot. Last run: 2.19, .44, 1.93, .23, .21, .21.

Sorry, no pics this week. Left the BlackBerry @ home.

DocGKR
12-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Attached is a target that may prove helpful when printed on legal size paper...

JV_
12-21-2011, 06:38 PM
Concealed
-CCC Shaggy
-Gen4 19

String 1: 11.62 (-2)
String 2: 14.11 (-3)
String 3: 20.86 (-2)

joshs
12-21-2011, 10:42 PM
Concealed
-CCC Shaggy
-P30

String 1: 2.78/2.50(-1)/2.70/3.07/2.52=13.57(-1)
String 2: 4.04/3.38/3.10(-2)/3.26/3.26(-1)=17.04(-3)
String 3: 7.12/6.46(-1)/5.72/6.92(-1)/5.07(-2)=31.29(-4)

I got kicked off the range, so I couldn't reshoot string 3.

DocGKR
12-21-2011, 10:56 PM
Why were you "kicked off the range"?

joshs
12-22-2011, 09:28 AM
Why were you "kicked off the range"?

At the NRA Range, after all the lanes are full they start a wait-list. Once there is a wait-list, people on the range are limited to one hour before they have to rotate off the range and get on the wait-list.

I love/hate these drills that mix high and low probability full-speed shooting. I really have a hard time switching to a super hard focus and slowing down on the two inch dots.

jthhapkido
12-22-2011, 12:20 PM
29 degrees, snow, windy---I DO so love shooting when my hands are as manipulatively responsive as bricks. [sigh] And it showed.

Gen4 G17 in Archangel AIWB concealed (closed front jacket)

6" circle: 3.04/2.76 -1/2.91/2.73/2.56 = 14 (-1)
3x5 card: 4.32/3.43/3.28/3.17/3.06 = 17.26 clean
2" circle: 4.42 -1/5.97/4.70/5.80/5.39 = 25.28 (-1)

On that 2", it was pretty obvious which runs had significantly poor trigger control, where I stopped before I broke the shot and worked the trigger again. Probably could have gone faster on the 3x5 with similar accuracy, but just making my trigger finger work in the cold was hard enough.

There was no reason my 6" circle shots weren't significantly faster. You can see where I completely yanked one shot on the 6" circle completely under the paper. (Sheesh!)


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7024/6554843765_b8e768e49f.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7010/6554844223_868befdca6.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7156/6554843961_aac5a87b7b.jpg

C45P312
12-22-2011, 01:47 PM
Looking at other people's pictures, I feel like my targets were smaller than suppose to be. Was I suppose to print it out on legal paper or something?

joshs
12-22-2011, 01:59 PM
Looking at other people's pictures, I feel like my targets were smaller than suppose to be. Was I suppose to print it out on legal paper or something?

The 26662 target you used is the right size, but the FAST target is supposed to be printed on legal paper.

Mr_White
12-22-2011, 06:12 PM
Well this was embarrassing. Again.

I had to restart a number of times. See below for the numbers. I was very, very jittery today. I drank a truly monstrous amount of sugary coffee all day, then went to shoot. Maybe that was not the best plan… Or maybe it had nothing to do with it.

Something I found interesting was that nearly all the restarts happened because of one really bad string. Did ok, did ok, did ok, then….spaz out and miss 3 shots, sinking that set. Then start over… On the strings where I screwed it all up, I did not control myself mentally and failed to look hard at the sights and it led to a predictable result. I do not believe it to be a speed issue as much as an attentional issue.

Anyway, on to the numbers…

Start position: concealed G34 AIWB, closed-front shirt
String 1 (6” circle): 10.25, -2
String 2 (3x5 card): 12.80, -3
String 3 (2” circle): 19.28, -3
Restarts: three restarts on string 1, two restarts on string 2.

At least I shot string 3 within the standard of the drill on the first try.

Here is all the raw data:

String 1, 6” circle: 1.79 –3, 1.91 –1, average time 1.85
Restart string 1: 2.16 C, 2.20 C, 2.00 C, 2.18 –1, 2.47 –3 (eye sprinted and watched the misses land – and worse, the misses were slower), average time 2.20
Restart string 1: 2.20 –3 (eye sprinted and watched the misses land), 2.12 C, 1.90 –1, average time 2.07
Restart string 1: 2.07 –1, 2.05 C, 1.98 –1, 2.13 C, 2.02 C = 10.25 –2, average time 2.05

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7016/6556167199_bdf63e4038.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6556167199/) SWYNTS_6_in_circle (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6556167199/) by OrigamiAK (http://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

String 2, 3x5 card: 3.03 –1, 2.90 C, 2.70 –1, 2.57 –1, 2.73 C, but when I brought the target back I realized there was one more miss from an unidentified string – average time 2.79
Restart string 2: 2.43 –1, 2.56 –3 (eye sprinted and watched the misses land – why do I punish myself this way?), average time 2.50
Restart string 2: 2.57 C, 2.60 –1, 2.46 C, 2.47 C, 2.70 –2 = 12.80 – 3, average time 2.56

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6556167397_4aa82f56b3.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6556167397/) SWYNTS_3x5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6556167397/) by OrigamiAK (http://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

String 3, 2” circle: 4.33 –1, 4.43 C, 3.69 C, 3.38 –1, 3.45 –1 = 19.28 –3, average time 3.86

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7012/6556167567_867bf88a11.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6556167567/) SWYNTS_2_in_circle (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/6556167567/) by OrigamiAK (http://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I notice an interesting thing when I look at the target areas compared to how long it took to shoot those areas successfully (so, just looking at the final valid scores in my case, ignoring the restarts.)

The 6" circle is 28.27 square inches, and my valid time was 10.25 seconds.
The 3x5 card is 15 square inches, and my valid time was 12.80 seconds.
The 2" circle is 3.14 square inches, and my valid time was 19.28 seconds.

The 3x5 card has 53% of the surface area of the 6" circle, but it only took 25% more time to shoot the 3x5 card than the 6" circle. It did not take twice as long to shoot a target with half the area.

The 2" circle is 11% of the surface area of the 6" circle, but it only took 88% more time to shoot the 2" circle than the 6" circle. It did not take ten times as long to shoot a target with a tenth the area.

I wonder if those proportions are similar for other people (haven't calculated any of that.)

JFK
12-22-2011, 07:01 PM
I did this drill twice. Once with my M&P as a base line and then with my new toy, a P30. Interesting how close they are considering this is the first time I shot the P30.

M&P 9mm from concealment AIWB
String 1: 17.95 -2
String 2: 23.05 -2
String 3: 32.96 -3
I had to shoot string 3 twice to get under three.

HK P30 from concealment AIWB
String 1: 20.51 clean
String 2: 22.75 -3
String 3: 34.14 -3
No reshoots

I think I like the HK, but the heavy pull is quite a change. Same with my firing grip.

ToddG
12-23-2011, 12:10 AM
Confession time: this week's DotW was primarily a way for me to compare my Glock with and without the new Crimson Trace Lasergrip.

I shot the iron-sighted runs immediately after shooting my cold drill (FAST once). I shot the Lasergrip runs near the end of the night after putting a lot of effort into re-learning how to shoot a laser well.

Poor planning on my part, but I also work a buttoned camp shirt instead of my normal polo or sweatshirt. This has a pretty dramatic negative impact on my draw speed.

Also, I misremembered the drill (duh) and reshot any time I had more than two misses, not three.

Irons, from AIWB concealment:
6in: 12.11 with 2 misses (2.40, 2.51 -1, 2.39, 2.40, 2.41 -1)
3x5: 15.20 with 1 miss (3.15, 3.22, 2.97, 3.12, 2.71 -1) ... needed a reshoot
2in: 19.88 with 2 misses (4.38, 3.88, 3.75, 3.95 -1, 3.92 -1)

Laser, from AIWB concealment:
6in: 11.35 with 1 miss (2.45, 2.30, 2.20 -1, 2.29, 2.11)
3x5: 14.45 clean (3.13, 2.82, 3.03, 2.82, 2.65) ... needed a reshoot
2in: 18.18 with 2 misses (3.77 -1, 3.92, 3.87, 3.47, 3.15 -1)

DocGKR
12-23-2011, 12:55 AM
Like the 99 drill, another new one which I have not experienced before.

G17 w/RMR07 AIWB from Fricke Seraphim holster:

6" circle: 14.36 sec
3x5" card: 16.66 sec
2" circle: 27.94 sec

I was wearing a new wool sweater over my pistol for concealment; this change unexpectedly resulted in a lot of hang-ups on the draw, especially on the first section of the drill before I started getting a handle on it...

Also ran some of my best clean FAST times today, including a 5.24 sec.

ToddG
12-23-2011, 01:23 AM
6" circle: 14.36 sec
3x5" card: 16.66 sec
2" circle: 27.94 sec
And I didn't miss a single shot the whole time, you lazy heathen bastards.

Fixed it for you.

DocGKR
12-23-2011, 02:42 AM
I'd probably count those two high hits on the 6" circle as misses and maybe the low left one as well...not to mention I was S L O W on the draw today.

Mr_White
12-23-2011, 09:50 AM
Fixed it for you.


I'd probably count those two high hits on the 6" circle as misses and maybe the low left one as well...not to mention I was S L O W on the draw today.

Seriously, what excellent consistency Doc. Nice shooting!

DocGKR
12-23-2011, 02:12 PM
I am cheating--using an RDS equipped pistol and going slow.

BaiHu
12-23-2011, 07:53 PM
LOVE THIS DRILL!
This drill really made me focus on my front sight and it made me feel good to see my results, b/c they show that I've been improving.
Now, let's hope I did the scoring/timing right.

Starting position: HKP30L 9mm CompTac open holster 2:45
total time and score for string 1 (6in Circle): 26.69 secs: 5.19 (-2)/5.38 (-1)/5.54 (cln and best accuracy)/5.23 (cln)/5.35 (cln) total hits 22/25
total time and score for string 2 (3x5 Card): 30.75 secs: 6.08 (-1)/5.99 (-1)/6.14 (cln)/6.58(-1)/5.96 (cln and most accurate) total hits 22/25
total time and score for string 3 (2in Circle): 46.43 secs 8.85 (-1)/8.91 (-2)/9.7 (cln and best accuracy)/9.26 (cln)/9.71 (cln) total hits 22/25
any times you had to start over on a string due to misses: had to start over the 2" circle once.
Total shots fired: 80

This is a great set of target sizes (thanks DocGKR) to mess around with. I used the last 20 rounds to mess around b/w going for speed on 2 to the 6" circle, 2 to the card, 2 to the 2" circle and 2 to the 1" square.

Unfortunately, I have no pictures, but I'll post video on youtube after the holidays for my records.

LOKNLOD
12-23-2011, 08:31 PM
Managed to sneak out to the range for about an hour's worth of daylight this afternoon. Time constraint and amount of ammo i took with me did play into this drill a bit...


starting position (concealed, duty, open holster, or ready position) -- HK P30 LEM from Shaggy concealed under a halfzip fleece.
total time and score for string 1 -- 20.53 23/25
total time and score for string 2 -- 26.72 22/25*
total time and score for string 3 -- 40.67 23/25*
any times you had to start over on a string due to misses: On the first 5-round group on the 2", my shots would have been a great grouping on the 6" circle. I nixed that run and started fresh. Also, on the very last 5-rd group of the 2" and 3x5", I put myself over the shot limit. I didn't have enough daylight and ammo to start over completely (and potentially shoot up all my ammo before getting to do anything else) so I shot an additional 5-shot group to replace it (and only it - I just replaced the last group, didn't cherry pick to replace the slowest or anything). On the 3x5, a 5.87 -0 replaced a 5.15 -1, and on the 2" circle, a 9.44 -0 (way slower than my other runs) replaced a 7.62 -3 (way to blow the whole drill all at once, dude). That took my total rounds to 90 fired (3 extra 5-shot runs).


I caught myself eye-sprinting really bad on the 2" circle segment. I think I've been doing it more than I realize, but the 2" circle really made me notice because with a hard front sight focus, the 2" circle might as well not be there (and yet I still it it. Clue?).

CraigBos
12-24-2011, 03:41 AM
Being a newbie shooter (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2499-CraigBos-Newbie-shooter) and all that, I don't think I'm really ready for a drill like this.

Nevertheless, I felt like it would be a fun challenge, so here goes:


Starting position: Ready position, no draws
Total time and score for string 1: 34.85 sec, 22/25
Total time and score for string 2: 49.9 sec, 17/25
Total time and score for string 3: 77.8 sec, 19/25
Any times you had to start over on a string due to misses: I did restart string 2, and shot it slower and less accurately the second time!


I elected to keep it light and easy on the restarts (i.e. don't really do them). I felt OK about the 6 inch and 2 inch circles. But I definitely didn't shoot up to my (admittedly minimal) skills on the 3x5.

Back to dry-fire, 3x5, and dummy-ball drills, yay!

ToddG
12-24-2011, 11:38 AM
CraigBos -- The question I'd ask is this: if I asked you to fire 30 rounds at a 2" circle 5yd away with absolutely no time limit, could you hit it consistently? If the answer is yes, then I'd suggest going back and doing the drill as intended. It's not about seeing if you can get your hits at a given speed, it's about seeing how much time/precision you need to get the hits. There's absolutely nothing wrong if your 2" string take six minutes. It's a baseline.

If you cannot hit a 2" circle on demand, which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of for a beginner, then you're correct that more time needs to be devoted to working the slowfire fundamentals.

CraigBos
12-24-2011, 01:53 PM
CraigBos -- The question I'd ask is this: if I asked you to fire 30 rounds at a 2" circle 5yd away with absolutely no time limit, could you hit it consistently? If the answer is yes, then I'd suggest going back and doing the drill as intended. It's not about seeing if you can get your hits at a given speed, it's about seeing how much time/precision you need to get the hits. There's absolutely nothing wrong if your 2" string take six minutes. It's a baseline.

If you cannot hit a 2" circle on demand, which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of for a beginner, then you're correct that more time needs to be devoted to working the slowfire fundamentals.

OK, I'll give it another try. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to get a valid score on the 3x5, and I'll take another whack at the 2". Regardless, I definitely need to devote more time to slow fire fundamentals!

Thanks!

BTW, what does SWYNTS stand for? (Probably something like, "Only a Noob Would Ask What This Abbreviation Stands For," right?)

Corey
12-24-2011, 04:42 PM
M&P full size 9mm. Strong side holster with open front cover garment. Started with hands at sides.

String one: 20.33 score: 23
String two: 22.67 score: 23
String three: 39.46 score 25:cool:

No restarts! :cool:

The last stage eye was having a terrible problem with eye sprinting. *My eye sprinting seems tied to the difficulty of the shot.

Just my guess, but I think the name of drill stands for See What You Need To See, or See What You Need To Shoot. I am sure Todd will correct me if I am wrong.

JV_
12-24-2011, 04:55 PM
BTW, what does SWYNTS stand for?
See What You Need To See, which is about getting a 'good enough' sight picture so that you get your hit, you don't necessarily need a "perfect" sight picture.

You need a much more refined sight picture to hit the 2" circle than you do for a 5" circle.

EmanP
12-25-2011, 12:24 AM
Concealed Gen 3 G17. Went slow enough to "guarantee good hits" and still failed 4 times. No restarts.
I thought the splits were extremely useful to know what it takes for those different size targets to hit them every time vs a it's mostly there sight picture

Shooting very carefully
String 1
1.50/30/22/25/23 - 2.50
1.50/33/21/23/22 - 2.49
1.52/26/20/22/21 - 2.41
1.61/26/46/28/21 - 2.82 Short stroked the trigger on the 3rd shot. So that's how much it costs!
1.53/28/20/23/21 - 2.45
Total 12.67

String 2
1.77/44/37/38/36 - 3.32
1.55/38/35/34/34 - 2.96
1.62/32/33/30/29 - 2.86 (-1)
1.74/35/32/33/34 - 3.08
1.55/42/31/33/30 - 2.91
Total 15.13 (-1)

String 3
2.02/65/63/59/52 - 4.41 (-1)
1.97/61/58/55/57 - 4.28
2.07/59/58/55/57 - 4.36 (-1)
1.90/58/50/58/60 - 4.25
2.07/53/48/49/48 - 4.05 (-1)
Total 21.35 (-3)

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg600/scaled.php?server=600&filename=try1yd.jpg&res=medium

Every string seemed slow to me so I tried it again. This time I just shot it like I would shoot it if just told to do it without any stipulations. The results tell me that I can shot it faster, I was just trying to pause between shots to confirm things which is costing me just a bit of time and I can shoot string 3 quicker. I guess I was being conservative because it was 2". It's interesting to note that both times on String one the splits between the 1st and 2nd shots were always longer than the other. Clearly I'm doing something I'm not quite aware of.

Shooting with a good enough sight picture. This was useful for me to know despite the instruction.
String 1
1.57/24/21/18/22 - 2.42 (-1)
1.31/22/21/20/21 - 2.15 (-1)
1.35/24/16/20/18 - 2.13
1.33/23/18/21/20 - 2.15 (-1)
1.35/23/20/18/20 - 2.16 (-1)
Total 11.01 (-4)

String 2
1.69/31/30/29/28 - 2.87 (-2)
1.59/28/28/26/26 - 2.67
1.59/30/29/25/27 - 2.70 (-1)
1.54/32/29/27/28 - 2.70
1.55/27/27/25/26 - 2.60 (-3)
Total 13.54 (-6)

String 3
1.89/48/41/40/42 - 3.60 (-2)
1.88/48/42/41/41 - 3.60
1.64/46/40/42/36 - 3.28 (-1)
1.89/49/42/45/38 - 3.63 (-1)
Total 17.48 (-5)

(Some of the tape from previous rounds came off on the 3x5)
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg195/scaled.php?server=195&filename=try2tf.jpg&res=medium

C45P312
12-25-2011, 11:11 PM
The 26662 target you used is the right size, but the FAST target is supposed to be printed on legal paper.

Alright thanks. I guess I should have measured everything before the did the drill. I was wondering my times were semi-slow. Not saying I'm a really good shooter, but I kept contemplating why I couldn't have shot the card faster.

CraigBos
12-26-2011, 08:03 PM
See What You Need To See, which is about getting a 'good enough' sight picture so that you get your hit, you don't necessarily need a "perfect" sight picture.

You need a much more refined sight picture to hit the 2" circle than you do for a 5" circle.

Of course. Thanks!

I went for a fun shoot today with my son, Dad, and brother. Not much disciplined drilling, but I did manage to get a valid SWYNTS time on the 3x5.

From ready position, 33 seconds, 3 misses.

Hopefully, I'll get a score on the 2" circle next time out.

ToddG
12-27-2011, 12:12 AM
Week 12 is now closed.

Week 13 (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2569-DotW-13-The-F-A-S-T) has been posted.