Should I consider adjusting my rear sight?

[randyflycaster]

Yesterday I had another shooting lesson. My shots are tightly grouped but still slightly to the right. (I am left-handed.) My instructor fired my CZ 85 and his shots landed right on.

He stood right behind me as I shot, then told me he thinks we should adjust my rear sight, as he feels that sights often have to be "customized" for shooters.

I also shoot my Glock slightly to the right; so right now I'm not convinced that my problem is the rear sight.

I guess I'm afraid of correcting one shooting defect with another.

Any thoughts?

Randy

[spinmove_]

Might be how you're establishing your master grip? How much right are we talking at which distance? Being left-handed you might be able to rotate your primary hand slightly clockwise.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[GuanoLoco]

You need to learn to control your trigger finger placement / trigger control without time constraints and at speed.

Adjusting your sights is just masking a problem and rationalizing that you don't need to fix it.

I had a similar problem at a higher level training class. We were shooting USPSA "A-zones" only (15cm x 28cm, or 6'x11") surrounded by no-shoots, 6 shots 'at speed', 6 times in a row, repeated at 7, 10, 15 and 20 yards respectively. When I say 'at speed' I mean from the draw and as fast as you can establish an acceptable sight picture for each shot, and this group of competition shooters wasn't slow by any stretch.

I have an issue where my hits are slightly low left (right handed shooter) and trust me - it matters. It shows up real clearly in the pattern with 6 x 6 x 4 = 144 shots and a small number low-left in the no-shoot area.

Attached is my target of trigger control shame.

15170

[orionz06]

I'll always always always shoot the weak hand supported to see if the shift still exists.


Shoot a paster and then shoot the hole from each shot. A gun that needs adjusted will walk the shots across the target. If you don't have issues using the other hand then you need some work. No biggie, rock on and get to fixin'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[randyflycaster]

At 15 yards my group was about 4/5 inches off to the side. I did, however, have a few bullseye hits.

Randy

[GJM]

At 15 yards my group was about 4/5 inches off to the side. I did, however, have a few bullseye hits.

Randy

My gut is a deviation this big is you and not the sights. I need a slight right deviation of the rear sight on most all pistols and revolvers, regardless of which hand I am shooting them with. Slight meaning an inch or so at 25 yards. 4/5 at 15 means you will likely need your sight drifted partly off the dovetail.

[breakingtime91]

This is a really hard question to answer. I know plenty of people who zero pistol sights to them and others who swear by centering them in the dovetail. I find it odd, as a community, that we zero our rifles but then instantly blame the shooter when they need to drift their pistol sights. Is there something I am missing?

*edited to add, obviously there is a possibility it is you.

[psalms144.1]

My gut is a deviation this big is you and not the sights. I need a slight right deviation of the rear sight on most all pistols and revolvers, regardless of which hand I am shooting them with. Slight meaning an inch or so at 25 yards. 4/5 at 15 means you will likely need your sight drifted partly off the dovetail.Agreed. I have several really good shooters who need a tiny bit of a right drift on the rear sight to get them really dialed in at 25 yards. When I see folks with Glock sights drifted all the way to the edge of the dovetail, I try to talk them into some trigger control focus...

[Trajan]

Too much finger and the tip is probably contacting the frame as the shot breaks, pulling it to the left.

Happens on revolvers often. Chuck Haggard taught me that as I was having problems shooting my S&Ws to the right.

I always bench my pistols to see though, and then adjust the sights from there. Usually that's only elevation, as the mechanical zero (equal distance on both sides of the dove tail down to +/-0.002) is usually spot on at 25m. I have had to adjust my Glocks slightly to the left due to overdriving the gun with my left hand.

[GuanoLoco]

Agreed. I have several really good shooters who need a tiny bit of a right drift on the rear sight to get them really dialed in at 25 yards. When I see folks with Glock sights drifted all the way to the edge of the dovetail, I try to talk them into some trigger control focus...

Looking at the Glock sight on my side and damned if it isn't drifted to the right. Steeking Glocks. I swear they are harder to shoot straight than other options.

[spinmove_]

Looking at the Glock sight on my side and damned if it isn't drifted to the right. Steeking Glocks. I swear they are harder to shoot straight than other options.

It's probably because your hand doesn't have right angles built into them. Like most people's hands.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Cypher]

Shoot a paster and then shoot the hole from each shot. A gun that needs adjusted will walk the shots across the target.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you restate?

[GuanoLoco]

Keep shooting your most recent hole.

[orionz06]

I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you restate?


If you're at 5 yards it's reasonable to assume one can hold a paster sized group. Shoot the paster. If you hit or miss shoot the hole made from the first shot. Shoot the hole made from the second shot and then shoot the hole made from the third shot, repeat for 5-10 rounds, it will be obvious at some point. If there is a sight adjustment issue your shots will form a line as each subsequent shot will carry the exact same POI offset from POA.

If the shots go left and then right it's not a sight issue.

[Cypher]

If you're at 5 yards it's reasonable to assume one can hold a paster sized group. Shoot the paster. If you hit or miss shoot the hole made from the first shot. Shoot the hole made from the second shot and then shoot the hole made from the third shot, repeat for 5-10 rounds, it will be obvious at some point. If there is a sight adjustment issue your shots will form a line as each subsequent shot will carry the exact same POI offset from POA.

If the shots go left and then right it's not a sight issue.

Got it thanks

[GJM]

What is interesting, is my wife generally has a neutral rear sight, where I need a bit of right deflection. However, with a red dot, the pistol hits the same for both of us, suggesting that there is something about how our eyes interpret the sights, that effects POI. An hour ago, we both shot her G19 T1 at 18 yards, and this is the composite of ten shots, five from each of us, and there was no deviation in windage between us.

15175

[spinmove_]

What is interesting, is my wife generally has a neutral rear sight, where I need a bit of right deflection. However, with a red dot, the pistol hits the same for both of us, suggesting that there is something about how our eyes interpret the sights, that effects POI. An hour ago, we both shot her G19 T1 at 18 yards, and this is the composite of ten shots, five from each of us, and there was no deviation in windage between us.

15175

I think it's important to note that while the dot works for both of you yet you need a slight right deviation it is worth reiterating that the correction is for properly zeroing said pistol at longer distances and your rear sight is definitely not way off to the right.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[GuanoLoco]

What's bugging me is that I have two Glock 19's, each with somewhat different triggers. One is drifted noticeably right, the other not. One (centered rear sight( has the GJM'z Zev magwell, the other does not. I zeroed them the same way more or less, but at different times.

I was doing USPSA Upper A headbox work at 10-20 yards the other day with both and didn't notice that either required any adjustment for good hits.

I need to do a paster drill with them side by side.

[GJM]

Since pistols are a collection of parts, each with their own exact dimension, it doesn't surprise me that, for example, that two different gen 4 Glock 19 pistols can exhibit different levels of accuracy, different feeling triggers, different load preferences and different points of impact. As a result, I zero each pistol to my eyes, my sights and my load. That can lead to different height front sights and different positioning of the rear sight.

[GJM]

What's bugging me is that I have two Glock 19's, each with somewhat different triggers. One is drifted noticeably right, the other not. One (centered rear sight( has the GJM'z Zev magwell, the other does not. I zeroed them the same way more or less, but at different times.

I was doing USPSA Upper A headbox work at 10-20 yards the other day with both and didn't notice that either required any adjustment for good hits.

I need to do a paster drill with them side by side.

The important question is which 19 are you shooting in Gabe's class? :)

[GuanoLoco]

The important question is which 19 are you shooting in Gabe's class? :)

The one without the magwell has a fitted Ghost Evo Elite trigger in it with stock springs. The other I think a Ghost connector and lightened springs. Both were running 100% last Friday for 300+ rounds.

No real preference. One without a magwell conceals slightly better. Last reloading practice sessions were all without the magwell but I had to swap back to the Tanfo for AL state USPSA.

Now I'm sure I suck at Glock again. One will be a backup for the other.

[Lomshek]

Yesterday I had another shooting lesson. My shots are tightly grouped but still slightly to the right. (I am left-handed.) My instructor fired my CZ 85 and his shots landed right on.

He stood right behind me as I shot, then told me he thinks we should adjust my rear sight, as he feels that sights often have to be "customized" for shooters.

I also shoot my Glock slightly to the right; so right now I'm not convinced that my problem is the rear sight.

I guess I'm afraid of correcting one shooting defect with another.

Any thoughts?

Randy

Buy yourself some dummy rounds and randomly load them into a few magazines then grab the mags and throw them in your pouches so that you won't know when you'll hit a dummy. Do some accuracy shooting and some fast draws and double taps and see what the sights do when you hit a dummy. If the gun jerks or the sights wobble at all as the gun clicks then you know it's you not the sights that need fixed (I'm right there with you).

When I'm working on trigger control specifically I'll load up more dummies than live rounds so that I mostly get clicks and occasionally get a bang. If I screw up the pull I'll just recock the gun (on my M&P that just requires pulling the slide back 1/2" or less) and I'll only cycle the slide to go to the next round in the mag if I get a clean trigger pull. That'll usually give me 30-40 reps for one 17 round magazine.

I like these dummies from Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/cartridge-dummies/saf-t-trainers-dummy-rounds-prod9923.aspx). The extractor slowly tears up the rims but the batch of 50 I bought has lasted me a couple years and they are easy to find on the ground.

15184

[randyflycaster]

Folks,
Thanks for all your help.
I will start using some dummy rounds,
Randy

[GJM]

Folks,
Thanks for all your help.
I will start using some dummy rounds,
Randy

There is another school of thought, espoused by Bill Rogers, that you use dummy rounds differently. Alternate dummy, ball, dummy, ball, so you know when you will have a dummy and when a live round. Running out the door now, without time to dive into the theory, although hopefully another Rogers School grad will chime in.

[breakingtime91]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOVo1HQd30

I still can not figure out how to embed videos. I found this video to be a good reference on what to do dry fire to fix my issues.

[blues]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOVo1HQd30

I still can not figure out how to embed videos. I found this video to be a good reference on what to do dry fire to fix my issues.

If you can't see the little video icon next to the icon for posting images, then just put the left bracket followed by the word video and then the right bracket in front of the video's url, and then left bracket followed by /video and then the right bracket after the url. Easy peasy.

[ ] are the brackets left and right to be used with the words video and /video


Here's your link:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOVo1HQd30

[breakingtime91]

If you can't see the little video icon next to the icon for posting images, then just put the left bracket followed by the word video and then the right bracket in front of the video's url and then left bracket /video followed by the right bracket after the url. Easy peasy.

[ ] those are the brackets left and right


Here's your link:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOVo1HQd30

Thanks brother,
"something something younger generation" ;)

[randyflycaster]

BTW, when I dry fire I don't see any sight movement. I even bought a bore laser sight to make sure.
I suspect I might be having some recoil control issues.
Randy

[psalms144.1]

BTW, when I dry fire I don't see any sight movement. I even bought a bore laser sight to make sure.
I suspect I might be having some recoil control issues.
RandyRandy - there might also be a problem with your dry firing. It's VERY difficult to "emotionally" invest in dry fire the same way you do with live fire. Obviously (assuming you're following the proper safety procedures) you won't have any flash/noise/recoil with dry fire. Because of this, it's VERY easy to get "slack" on grip, stance, and trigger work in dry fire. In live fire, you might be gripping the weapon harder, and being more focused on other issues (sights, etc) than you are on trigger manipulation.

Hence George's earlier suggestion that ball and dummy drills might be more effective in diagnosing the problem than just dry firing with dummies.

[breakingtime91]

Randy - there might also be a problem with your dry firing. It's VERY difficult to "emotionally" invest in dry fire the same way you do with live fire. Obviously (assuming you're following the proper safety procedures) you won't have any flash/noise/recoil with dry fire. Because of this, it's VERY easy to get "slack" on grip, stance, and trigger work in dry fire. In live fire, you might be gripping the weapon harder, and being more focused on other issues (sights, etc) than you are on trigger manipulation.

Hence George's earlier suggestion that ball and dummy drills might be more effective in diagnosing the problem than just dry firing with dummies.

Ya, I find that I have to get into the "mindset" and check my stance quite a bit during dry fire. When I pick up the gun I always clear it and then deliberately get into an "aggressive" shooting stance. This can be quite fatiguing after awhile but now that I have been doing it for a few months, I can dry fire for 20-30 minutes straight using the same stance/grip I do when shooting live fire. Obviously some days I go longer but I start to feel the negative effects of it.

[GJM]

There are differences in people's physiological reaction to the concussion of firing a live round. Some anticipate, some blink, and there are a bunch of other possibilities. The advantage of alternating dummy and live round, is your body will know there is no concussion when there is next a dummy, allow you to make a perfect press, and hopefully REINFORCE that perfect press, through a number of repetitions.

I like dry fire, but it is easy to kid yourself into thinking you have better trigger control than you do, when you don't get the loud noise, and the lie detector of the actual shot on paper.

[Lomshek]

There is another school of thought, espoused by Bill Rogers, that you use dummy rounds differently. Alternate dummy, ball, dummy, ball, so you know when you will have a dummy and when a live round. Running out the door now, without time to dive into the theory, although hopefully another Rogers School grad will chime in.

I'm not a Rogers attendee but agree the "known" ball and dummy drill is a good one too.

"Ok I know this one is a dummy so no flinch. Ok I know this is a live round but I'm going to do it exactly like the dummy." is great positive reinforcement.

[GJM]

I'm not a Rogers attendee but agree the "known" ball and dummy drill is a good one too.

"Ok I know this one is a dummy so no flinch. Ok I know this is a live round but I'm going to do it exactly like the dummy." is great positive reinforcement.


Exactly

[psalms144.1]

Back when I had a range that was workable (e.g. not a sand pit), one of our frequent drills was the "F YOU!" magazine drill. We all had issued G19s. We would take a scientifically measured pile of mags and everyone would grab a handful. They would proceed to load the magazines with a mix of live and dummies, as close to randomly as possible. All the mags went back into the trash can, and, as a shooter came to the line, I would grab three, pop one in their magazine well and two in their pouches. After the shooter was directed to load, they were provided a multi-shot tactical scenario to negotiate, with cover to move between, multiple targets with no-shoots interspersed, etc. On the "fight" command, the game was on, and hilarity ensued.

Not only did it show CLEARLY who had bad "flinches," it taught all of us to tap-rack-reassess like suns-o-guns, on the move or behind cover, if you didn't want to be heckled mercilessly.

[randyflycaster]

Did much better yesterday at the range. My shots were still to the right, but only one or two inches. Groupings were tight.
I think much of my problem was that, after I took the shot, I loosened up my grip pressure, so that the muzzle would move up
and to the right,

As my instructor pointed out: After the shot breaks the pistol must snap back into place by itself.

Also mixed in dummy rounds for the first time. I didn't seem to flinch.

Randy

[JAD]

I've become convinced one of my 17s needs 2" at 25. Anyone know the math for how much drift that is of the rear sight?

[Matt O]

I've become convinced one of my 17s needs 2" at 25. Anyone know the math for how much drift that is of the rear sight?

Just plug your numbers in (inches): (Error X Sight Radius) / Distance

(2 X 6.49) / 900 = 0.014

[SsevenN]

Yesterday I had another shooting lesson. My shots are tightly grouped but still slightly to the right. (I am left-handed.) My instructor fired my CZ 85 and his shots landed right on.

He stood right behind me as I shot, then told me he thinks we should adjust my rear sight, as he feels that sights often have to be "customized" for shooters.

I also shoot my Glock slightly to the right; so right now I'm not convinced that my problem is the rear sight.

I guess I'm afraid of correcting one shooting defect with another.

Any thoughts?

Randy

I would never disrupt the mechanical accuracy of a gun to band aid a software issue.

I'd say do nothing but bullseye shooting as often as you can and keep making micro adjustments to your grip/trigger pull until you find the magic combination, then burn that grip in to your mind with dryfire and confirm it a few more times before integrating more practical shooting back in to your training.

Just my thoughts, probably not worth much.

[blues]

SLG and I touched on the topic of astigmatism via PM sometime back...and how it effects shooting.


I have an astigmatism as well, and I think they are not very well understood from a shooting standpoint. That may be the issue, or it may be your finger, or a combination.

This was brought up in a conversation we were having about my thought to drift my G26 and G19 sights to the right.

Interestingly, when I thought about the various firearms I have trained with in the past year or so, there is a definite pattern:

S&W 686+: Rear sight adjusted to the right (windage)

G19: Drifted to the right (since the recent installation of Trijicon HDs. OEM sights were not drifted.)

G26: Drifted to the right (since the recent installation of Trijicon HDs. OEM sights were not drifted.)

S&W M&P15 TS: MBUS adjusted to the right for windage. Aimpoint H2, zeroed separately at the same distance, adjusted to the right for windage.

When the MBUS was used to co-witness the Aimpoint setting, the red dot was sitting right on top of the front sight as it should be.

Obviously, each of the firearms above have very different triggers. So it's not a simple Glock trigger issue.

To throw a monkey wrench into the whole morass:

Gen4 G17: No rear sight drift required. (Same Trijicon HDs as the two Glocks above.)
S&W 642-1 Fixed sight, shoots spot on
Remington 870: Simple fixed bead sight, shoots spot on.

I think that SLG's comment about astigmatism may have merit though I don't doubt that due to my lack of regular, repeated, rigorous training the last few years my shooting skills aren't what they once were. I'm willing to admit some of it may very well be trigger finger discipline. But only to a point due to the discrepancy with the firearms needing no adjustment or compensation.

The point of this long, drawn out post is to say that based upon my personal experience above, if drifting or adjusting the sights gets your rounds on the target where you want them to group, I can see no harm in doing so...especially so one doesn't have to try to remember where one tends to shoot with a handful of different firearms.

Just my opinion. (Though when I have more time, I'm going to reset those Glocks to center position and test again.)

[GJM]

SLG and I touched on the topic of astigmatism via PM sometime back...and how it effects shooting.



This was brought up in a conversation we were having about my thought to drift my G26 and G19 sights to the right.

Interestingly, when I thought about the various firearms I have trained with in the past year or so, there is a definite pattern:

S&W 686+: Rear sight adjusted to the right (windage)

G19: Drifted to the right (since the recent installation of Trijicon HDs. OEM sights were not drifted.)

G26: Drifted to the right (since the recent installation of Trijicon HDs. OEM sights were not drifted.)

S&W M&P15 TS: MBUS adjusted to the right for windage. Aimpoint H2, zeroed separately at the same distance, adjusted to the right for windage.

When the MBUS was used to co-witness the Aimpoint setting, the red dot was sitting right on top of the front sight as it should be.

Obviously, each of the firearms above have very different triggers. So it's not a simple Glock trigger issue.

To throw a monkey wrench into the whole morass:

Gen4 G17: No rear sight drift required. (Same Trijicon HDs as the two Glocks above.)
S&W 642-1 Fixed sight, shoots spot on
Remington 870: Simple fixed bead sight, shoots spot on.

I think that SLG's comment about astigmatism may have merit though I don't doubt that due to my lack of regular, repeated, rigorous training the last few years my shooting skills aren't what they once were. I'm willing to admit some of it may very well be trigger finger discipline. But only to a point due to the discrepancy with the firearms needing no adjustment or compensation.

The point of this long, drawn out post is to say that based upon my personal experience above, if drifting or adjusting the sights gets your rounds on the target where you want them to group, I can see no harm in doing so...especially so one doesn't have to try to remember where one tends to shoot with a handful of different firearms.

Just my opinion. (Though when I have more time, I'm going to reset those Glocks to center position and test again.)

Very interesting as I also have an astigmatism and require a slight right deflection on rear sights. Never connected those two before.

[blues]

Very interesting as I also have an astigmatism and require a slight right deflection on rear sights. Never connected those two before.

I'll be interested in any insights you may have or come upon. I don't wear corrective lenses. I wear 1.25x reading glasses indoors when using the laptop or when reading in bed. (Both in less than ideal lighting.) Outdoors I read without them...and I need no corrective lenses for driving or shooting.

That said, I won't be reading license plates at distance anymore and the astigmatism causes a red dot to have a couple of spikes (which turn with the barrel...so they are not a defect of the optic).

Finally, I haven't bench rested these guns as I don't shoot from a rest in life and these firearms are all guns I've either carried on duty in the past or their equivalent. Any of them may be employed for self or home defense.

[spinmove_]

The astigmatism aspect is interesting. I've only been wearing corrective lenses for maybe 4 years now. The first eye doc I saw said I had a slight astigmatism. The second eye doc I saw said that I did not have an astigmatism. I'm going in for another check up next week for new daily wear glasses so we'll see what this guy says. Supposedly he's a really good optometrist that runs his own private practice.

This may explain why I have a "slight left" shooting issue as well. Major and minor changes to grip, trigger press, various degrees of grip pressure, and a handful of other changes all seem to consistently point to me shooting just left of POA. I think the next time I hit the range I'll need to swap to normal prescription-less eye pro and see what happens. Might be interesting.

For reference I'm left eye dominant, right handed, and my rear sight is centered in the dovetail. I've also got a new universal boresighter on its way in to confirm zero and help get my rifles on paper before zeroing.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[blues]

Correction: In post 41 which I can no longer edit, I misspoke. I meant to say the spikes on the red dot don't turn when the barrel of the optic is rotated. If it were a fault in the optic itself, the flaw would turn along with the rotation. Astigmatism keeps the perceived spikes in the same place despite the rotation. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.


I'll be very interested in any information or conclusions my fellow astigmatic members might share going forward.

(Astigmatics...we can be the new Deplorables.)

[GuanoLoco]

I've become convinced one of my 17s needs 2" at 25. Anyone know the math for how much drift that is of the rear sight?

https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/

Turn your display 90 degrees to change elevation results from calculator to windage.

[spinmove_]

Correction: In post 41 which I can no longer edit, I misspoke. I meant to say the spikes on the red dot don't turn when the barrel of the optic is rotated. If it were a fault in the optic itself, the flaw would turn along with the rotation. Astigmatism keeps the perceived spikes in the same place despite the rotation. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.


I'll be very interested in any information or conclusions my fellow astigmatic members might share going forward.

(Astigmatics...we can be the new Deplorables.)

Astigmatics. We just see things differently than you do.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[psalms144.1]

For a second I thought we were talking about Stigmatics, being Holy Week and all. I'll go back into my Lenten prayer routine now and STFU... (obviously didn't give up cussing!)

[blues]

For a second I thought we were talking about Stigmatics, being Holy Week and all. I'll go back into my Lenten prayer routine now and STFU... (obviously didn't give up cussing!)

For your penance, Kevin, I'll expect you to share your thoughts on the topic of shooting and astigmatism. We promise not to stigmatize you regardless of your stance.

[Redhat]

Yesterday I had another shooting lesson. My shots are tightly grouped but still slightly to the right. (I am left-handed.) My instructor fired my CZ 85 and his shots landed right on.

He stood right behind me as I shot, then told me he thinks we should adjust my rear sight, as he feels that sights often have to be "customized" for shooters.

I also shoot my Glock slightly to the right; so right now I'm not convinced that my problem is the rear sight.

I guess I'm afraid of correcting one shooting defect with another.

Any thoughts?

Randy

Since I don't recall anyone mentioning it, how tight are you gripping with your firing hand before and through the shot. Keep in mind you need to disassociate your trigger finger from the rest...i.e, don't tighten your grip fingers when you press the trigger. See what happens when you shoot strong hand only.

[spinmove_]

So just as an update to this thread, the boresighter that I got confirmed that my sights were ever so slightly out of alignment with where the bore was actually putting rounds. I adjusted the sights to match the laser. I've taken it to the range twice for live fire confirmation at 25 yards. POI now reflects my POA. My rear sight did indeed move slightly to the right.