Am I the only one who finds this ironic - dropping a gun?

[DMF13]

So I got the "Tactical Brief" email today, and it contained a link to this article:
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/content/if-your-gun-falls-let-it-drop/law-enforcement-defense-security

Which says, "If you happen to lose control of your pistol while it is in your hand or if it falls out of your holster or your hand during a draw, let it drop. It is extremely dangerous to try and grab the weapon in the air. There is a chance you will get tangled up in the trigger and pull the trigger in the process causing the pistol to fire."

I agree 100% with that statement.

However, I find it ironic that IPDA sent me that link, when IDPA has rules 2.3.1 and 2.3.2, which mandate that a shooter who drops a gun to be disqualified. Those two rules, I have always thought were stupid, as they encourage a shooter to attempt to grab a falling gun, rather than let it simply hit the deck, in an unsafe attempt to prevent being disqualified.

[voodoo_man]

Gaming isn't based in reality, so there's that.

And you shouldn't be dropping your gun anyway...

[Zincwarrior]

If the gun falls out of your hand do not try to grab it. Of course the reality of the situation is you will react without thinking.

[cclaxton]

So I got the "Tactical Brief" email today, and it contained a link to this article:
http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/content/if-your-gun-falls-let-it-drop/law-enforcement-defense-security

Which says, "If you happen to lose control of your pistol while it is in your hand or if it falls out of your holster or your hand during a draw, let it drop. It is extremely dangerous to try and grab the weapon in the air. There is a chance you will get tangled up in the trigger and pull the trigger in the process causing the pistol to fire."

I agree 100% with that statement.

However, I find it ironic that IPDA sent me that link, when IDPA has rules 2.3.1 and 2.3.2, which mandate that a shooter who drops a gun to be disqualified. Those two rules, I have always thought were stupid, as they encourage a shooter to attempt to grab a falling gun, rather than let it simply hit the deck, in an unsafe attempt to prevent being disqualified.
Attempting to catch a falling gun is also unsafe gun handling and would be a DQ. Is it your argument that this is allowed in USPSA?
Cody
Cody

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[Luke]

USPSA - empty handgun dropped is ok as long as the competitor does NOT pick it up. Loaded handgun is a DQ. As far as I know there are no rules against catching or attempting to catch a gun.

[DMF13]

Attempting to catch a falling gun is also unsafe gun handling and would be a DQ.No, the attempt to catch a falling gun is a judgment call left up to the SO, that might be determined to be "unsafe," and might result in a disqualification. In fact, attempting to catch a falling gun is not mentioned as an example of unsafe gun handling in rule 2.2.

However, dropping a gun is specifically addressed as something that will result in a disqualification, and therefore the rules encourage attempting to catch a falling gun, as trying to catch it might result in a DQ, but following the wise advice of the linked article from the "Tactical Brief," absolutely will result in a disqualification.
Is it your argument that this is allowed in USPSA?No, my point is it's ironic that IDPA sent me a link to that article, when IDPA has a rule that encourages people to do the very unsafe thing the article recommends against. I didn't mention USPSA at all, USPSA didn't send me the link to the article, and I posted in the IDPA forum, not the IPSC/USPSA forum. :rolleyes:

[DMF13]

Gaming isn't based in reality, so there's that.Yes, but the reality of the game is there are real guns, with real ammo, and the concern over people dropping guns is a real issue.
And you shouldn't be dropping your gun anyway...True, but accidents can happen, and none of us are infallible, so the rules shouldn't encourage someone to do something unsafe during the accident.

[Zincwarrior]

No, the attempt to catch a falling gun is a judgment call left up to the SO, that might be determined to be "unsafe," and might result in a disqualification. In fact, attempting to catch a falling gun is not mentioned as an example of unsafe gun handling in rule 2.2.

However, dropping a gun is specifically addressed as something that will result in a disqualification, and therefore the rules encourage attempting to catch a falling gun, as trying to catch it might result in a DQ, but following the wise advice of the linked article from the "Tactical Brief," absolutely will result in a disqualification.No, my point is it's ironic that IDPA sent me a link to that article, when IDPA has a rule that encourages people to do the very unsafe thing the article recommends against. I didn't mention USPSA at all, USPSA didn't send me the link to the article, and I posted in the IDPA forum, not the IPSC/USPSA forum. :rolleyes:

Well the rule is not trying to keep you from grabbing or not grabbing your pistol. The rule is saying don't drop your pistol in the first place.
If you are and SO/RO and Joe Blow drops his pistol in front of you I doubt you'd be comfortable with him from a safety perspective going forward.

The orientations we always have revolve around "hold onto that sucker at all costs" not "grab it if its falling already." I've never actually seen it happen. But again I do waddle and shoot. Maybe the wearing cleats and doing windsprints on the sideline crowd have more experience in that. :rolleyes::p


(I do believe during the summer if I could do the entire match from a comfy chair under an umbrella I would-preferably with a bourbon on the rocks in one hand. Strangely I never seem to win. Must be the ammo)

[GuanoLoco]

USPSA - empty handgun dropped is ok as long as the competitor does NOT pick it up. Loaded handgun is a DQ. As far as I know there are no rules against catching or attempting to catch a gun.

I'd have it look it up but I believe that is only true *outside* of the course of fire. For example, getting your gun knocked out of the holster on a prop while setting steel between stages.

[cclaxton]

No, the attempt to catch a falling gun is a judgment call left up to the SO, that might be determined to be "unsafe," and might result in a disqualification. In fact, attempting to catch a falling gun is not mentioned as an example of unsafe gun handling in rule 2.2.

However, dropping a gun is specifically addressed as something that will result in a disqualification, and therefore the rules encourage attempting to catch a falling gun, as trying to catch it might result in a DQ, but following the wise advice of the linked article from the "Tactical Brief," absolutely will result in a disqualification.No, my point is it's ironic that IDPA sent me a link to that article, when IDPA has a rule that encourages people to do the very unsafe thing the article recommends against. I didn't mention USPSA at all, USPSA didn't send me the link to the article, and I posted in the IDPA forum, not the IPSC/USPSA forum. :rolleyes:
There is no judgement call of trying to catch a falling gun. If the gun leaves your hands in the shooting area, it was dropped, and you will be DQ'D. I am pretty sure that is the same for USPSA.

You have made up a straw man argument.

It is clearly unsafe to attempt to catch a falling gun, especially while at a shooting match while loaded. You should be focusing on supporting safe gun handling rather than suggesting the opposite.

And, FYI, 2.2 is a non-exclusive list.
Cody


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[TAZ]

I think this falls into the category of a friendly reminder to not try and catch a falling gun. Maybe somewhere someone tried it and had an nd or maybe it's spring and people are starting back at it and someone thought it wise to remind folks of something we rarely think about.

Even if there were no specific rule against it doing so would be bad juju. I'd rather deal with a DQ than a bullet in the noggen or the SO's noggen.

[YVK]

There is no judgement call of trying to catch a falling gun. If the gun leaves your hands in the shooting area, it was dropped, and you will be DQ'D. I am pretty sure that is the same for USPSA.

You have made up a straw man argument.




I don't see a straw argument, he is absolutely right.

We tell everyone they'll be going home if they dropped their guns, both USPSA and IDPA. Because rules.
At the tame time we tell everyone that trying to catch a falling gun is a nonono. Because nobody wants to be shot.

Last time I saw a shooter catch a gun was during my second to last match. First stage of the match, sitting start, his 2011 got snatched by a chair, dude caught it and went on shooting. If he hadn't done it, he would've been DQ'd without shooting a single round in a match.

DQ'ing for a dropped gun is dumb. Considering costs and time investments going into attending matches, shooters do not want to let it happen and people do try to catch their gats or keep holding onto them when letting go would be a better decision. Obviously DQ doesn't make anything more or less safe because it happens after the fact. Normal guns don't go off when dropped but, of course, making a requirement that all guns have working drop safeties would be bad for business.

[voodoo_man]

Yes, but the reality of the game is there are real guns, with real ammo, and the concern over people dropping guns is a real issue.True, but accidents can happen, and none of us are infallible, so the rules shouldn't encourage someone to do something unsafe during the accident.

Game issues for gamers.

Sorry but this is a self correcting problem.

[YVK]

I wonder if SFOD-D, SEAL or SWAT members get booted from training or quals for dropping their guns.

[joshs]

I don't see a straw argument, he is absolutely right.

We tell everyone they'll be going home if they dropped their guns, both USPSA and IDPA. Because rules.
At the tame time we tell everyone that trying to catch a falling gun is a nonono. Because nobody wants to be shot.

Last time I saw a shooter catch a gun was during my second to last match. First stage of the match, sitting start, his 2011 got snatched by a chair, dude caught it and went on shooting. If he hadn't done it, he would've been DQ'd without shooting a single round in a match.

DQ'ing for a dropped gun is dumb. Considering costs and time investments going into attending matches, shooters do not want to let it happen and people do try to catch their gats or keep holding onto them when letting go would be a better decision. Obviously DQ doesn't make anything more or less safe because it happens after the fact. Normal guns don't go off when dropped but, of course, making a requirement that all guns have working drop safeties would be bad for business.

The he should have been DQed.

I agree with cclaxton, the "drop" occurs when the shooter no longer has control of the firearm.

The most common definition for the transitive usage of "drop" is "to let fall : cause to fall." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/drop#h2

This is made more clear in the USPSA rules by the exception for placing a firearm on the ground or a solid object.

"10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or
unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or
not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire,
safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other
stable object will not be disqualified provided:
10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the
handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or
another stable object . . ."

If you don't "maintain[] constant physical contact with the handgun" then the exception to 10.5.3 doesn't apply.

As soon as you lose control of the handgun, you should be DQed, so you might as well take safest option at that point and let it fall.

[cclaxton]

I don't see a straw argument, he is absolutely right.

We tell everyone they'll be going home if they dropped their guns, both USPSA and IDPA. Because rules.
At the tame time we tell everyone that trying to catch a falling gun is a nonono. Because nobody wants to be shot.

Last time I saw a shooter catch a gun was during my second to last match. First stage of the match, sitting start, his 2011 got snatched by a chair, dude caught it and went on shooting. If he hadn't done it, he would've been DQ'd without shooting a single round in a match.

DQ'ing for a dropped gun is dumb. Considering costs and time investments going into attending matches, shooters do not want to let it happen and people do try to catch their gats or keep holding onto them when letting go would be a better decision. Obviously DQ doesn't make anything more or less safe because it happens after the fact. Normal guns don't go off when dropped but, of course, making a requirement that all guns have working drop safeties would be bad for business.
The rule says DROPPING your gun. It does NOT say "letting the gun hit the ground." Just because one guy got away with it does mean he should not have been DQ'd. RO's are not infallible either. It is clearly unsafe to try and catch a gun which has been DROPPED.
Cody

[orionz06]

Sorry but this is a self correcting problem.


Agree, usually they don't drop guns more than once and live to game another day.



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[cclaxton]

I have seen one instance where it was incredibly unfair. I once had a shooter who saw an unpasted target, and while running to paste it (before the next shooter had started, of course), her gun popped out..unloaded, of course. She had been having a great match.
But, being safe means making certain sacrifices.
Cody

[Zincwarrior]

I wonder if SFOD-D, SEAL or SWAT members get booted from training or quals for dropping their guns.
All tacticool low drag operators know that the best way to catch your gun is to do a complete forward sommersault. That way you can use the forward momentum to do a low drag head shot on those 50 meter targets, just like you meant to do.

[cclaxton]

I just checked with the Area 8 USPSA Director. Dropping a gun means the moment it leaves your hands. Trying to catch a falling gun is a DQ. Dropping a gun outside the shooting area is not automatically a DQ as long as the shooter calls an RO to manage the retrieval. Range rules dictate whether it is an ejection at that point.
Cody

[PNWTO]

I have seen one instance where it was incredibly unfair. I once had a shooter who saw an unpasted target, and while running to paste it (before the next shooter had started, of course), her gun popped out..unloaded, of course. She had been having a great match.
But, being safe means making certain sacrifices.
Cody

If her holster allowed to gun to "pop" out then it was woefully awful to begin with. More silliness.

[cclaxton]

I wonder if SFOD-D, SEAL or SWAT members get booted from training or quals for dropping their guns.
I just talked to a friend of mine who heads one of the local SWAT teams and he said that guys get booted for unsafe gun handling which includes trying to catch their gun if it falls. He called it nuts to think that anyone would try to catch their gun during live fire training.
Cody

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[YVK]

Do they get booted for dropping a gun?

[cclaxton]

Do they get booted for dropping a gun?
Not unless unsafe things happen too many times.
Cody

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[DMF13]

You have made up a straw man argument. More irony, with you trying to accuse me of making strawman arguments, after your very first post did just that with the nonsense about USPSA, when I was clearly talking about IDPA. :rolleyes:


It is clearly unsafe to attempt to catch a falling gun, especially while at a shooting match while loaded. You should be focusing on supporting safe gun handling rather than suggesting the opposite.More irony, and strawman arguments from YOU. I've never suggested it was OK to catch a falling gun. Quite the opposite, I've said it's unsafe to do so, but that Rule 2.3 encourages people to attempt to catch their guns, because that might be considered unsafe, but might not be, since a 2.2 DQ is just a judgment call from the SO, but actually dropping the gun (with it actually hitting the ground being absolute proof of that) will definitely result in a DQ. Therefore there is an incentive to try to keep the gun from hitting the ground to avoid the absolute proof that Rule 2.3 was violated, and getting the definite DQ.
And, FYI, 2.2 is a non-exclusive list.
Where exactly did I say it wasn't? That's rhetorical, because I didn’t say, or even imply, any such thing, but we’ve already established that it’s actually you that is fond of strawman arguments.

However, as you point out Rule 2.2 covers all unsafe gun handling.

So it makes me think of a scene from the movie "A Few Good Men" which I will parody for you:

Lt Kaffee:Colonel, I have another question. If Rule 2.2 covers all unsafe gun handling, and you, and the people who run IDPA, feel dropping a gun is unsafe, then why would you need Rule 2.3? Why would it be necessary to have that separate Rule?
Jessep: Dropping a gun is unsafe because . . .
Lt Kaffee: That is not what you said, you said being unsafe was covered by Rule 2.2.
Jessep: That's correct.
Lt Kaffee: You said what was listed in Rule 2.2 was “non-exclusive.”
Jessep: I recall what I said--
Lt Kaffee: I can have the court reporter read back to you--
Jessep: I know what I said! I don't have to have it read back to me like I'm--!
Kaffee: Then why the two rules, Colonel?

15254

[DMF13]

Game issues for gamers.

Sorry but this is a self correcting problem.Well either you play the game, then this is an issue for you, or you don't play the game, and it's not. If the latter is true then I can't see why you're commenting on this thread at all.

[Peally]

Is this even an issue (rhetorical, it's not)? I've yet to see someone drop a gun and catch it, and if they did they'd likely be DQ'd simply on the basis of being a monumentally stupid motherfucker for attempting such a thing, assuming it somehow didn't break 180 by default, rules be damned. Does there need to be specific wording covering when a drop has officially become a drop? Is there an actual assumption anywhere that tripping and jettisoning your gun across a shooting bay is OK as long as you catch it before it touches the ground? Do people drop a gun a half inch before catching it often enough for it to matter?

Once the gun comes out and you're not at a safe table or up to shoot you're done for the day regardless of any intentions everywhere I've ever been. I think that's pretty widely understood. it really doesn't matter how much time and money the person spent getting to the match, that's an irrelevant bummer they had full control over.

If this actually is an issue a simple email to area directors and IDPA RO peoples (or a tiger team or whatever the hell dark wizard does IDPA's rule change recommendations) to get the technicality entered into the books seems easy enough. Sure we have actual issues like popper fucking going on, but we can burn time on this too.

[That Guy]

Peally, thank you for that moment of sanity in this thread.

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[voodoo_man]

Well either you play the game, then this is an issue for you, or you don't play the game, and it's not. If the latter is true then I can't see why you're commenting on this thread at all.

Because so many, especially here, have expounded on the major relevance that gaming has with self defense, especially skill sets required to "not get killed on the streetz" and then we have this completely pointless thread on something only gamers would have conversations about.

So either gaming is totally relevant to self defense shooting skillset or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

[Hambo]

Does this mean that the border shift is illegal in competition?

Seriously, is there a gun dropping epidemic? In decades of shooting schools, USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun, sporting clays, as well as being a SWAT guy, I've seen exactly one pistol hit the deck, and that was from a catastrophic Serpa holster failure.

As for SWAT guys getting dumped over a dropped gun, I never saw anybody drop one. If an officer already had a reputation for poor shooting, tactics, poor physical condition, general stupidity, he wasn't going to get selected for SWAT training in the first place.

[cclaxton]

More irony, with you trying to accuse me of making strawman arguments, after your very first post did just that with the nonsense about USPSA, when I was clearly talking about IDPA. :rolleyes:
More irony, and strawman arguments from YOU. I've never suggested it was OK to catch a falling gun. Quite the opposite, I've said it's unsafe to do so, but that Rule 2.3 encourages people to attempt to catch their guns, because that might be considered unsafe, but might not be, since a 2.2 DQ is just a judgment call from the SO, but actually dropping the gun (with it actually hitting the ground being absolute proof of that) will definitely result in a DQ. Therefore there is an incentive to try to keep the gun from hitting the ground to avoid the absolute proof that Rule 2.3 was violated, and getting the definite DQ.Where exactly did I say it wasn't? That's rhetorical, because I didn’t say, or even imply, any such thing, but we’ve already established that it’s actually you that is fond of strawman arguments.

It's pretty clear you don't understand the meaning of a straw man argument: "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent."

You are the one who set up a fallacy that IDPA supports unsafe gun-handling and encourages people to catch a falling gun. No official has ever advanced an argument that catching a falling or dropped gun would avoid a DQ....YOU advanced that fallacy. You then used that fallacy to attempt to ridicule IDPA. When I brought up USPSA, it was in the form of a question, not a statement. I was curious where such a ridiculous idea would be coming from. A RO/SO's job is to watch the gun. We KNOW when that gun leaves the shooters hands or when they lose control. We don't wait to see if the gun hit the ground. Most of the time the SO/RO will say STOP before the gun even hits the ground. As JoshS pointed out, the words matter when it comes to the rules. The rule says dropping or causing a gun to fall is a DQ. It does NOT say "allowing a gun to hit the ground."

I then confirmed this understanding with both the USPSA Director and with a SWAT team officer. I am a IDPA official, and I can tell you for certain that no rule clarification is necessary...the rule is VERY CLEAR: Dropping a gun or causing it fall is a DQ....attempting to catch it after it has been dropped (and you have earned the DQ) is more dangerous than simply letting it fall. That was the point in the tactical journal.

Just admit you were wrong and stop this foolishness.
Cody

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I have seen one instance where it was incredibly unfair. I once had a shooter who saw an unpasted target, and while running to paste it (before the next shooter had started, of course), her gun popped out..unloaded, of course. She had been having a great match.
But, being safe means making certain sacrifices.
Cody

As much as that specific DQ sucks for that shooter, I have absolutely no issue with it.

If your gun just falls out of your holster while you are running, or gets knocked out by being brushed up against a chair, then the holster had poor retention. Such a holster is unsuitable for concealed carry and therefore unsuitable for IDPA.

The fact that someone can get DQ'd by having a holster with poor retention, encourages people to use holsters with sufficient tension, which is otherwise kind of hard to regulate.

[Peally]

Because so many, especially here, have expounded on the major relevance that gaming has with self defense, especially skill sets required to "not get killed on the streetz" and then we have this completely pointless thread on something only gamers would have conversations about.

So either gaming is totally relevant to self defense shooting skillset or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

It's not 100% magical relevant self defense training and no one is fucking claiming that. It's a game, it has rules, the rules will be discussed. Use some common sense and get off the pointless crusade horse.

Fundamentals have a stake in self defense and everything else you can do with a firearm, and this is one of 20 ways to effectively test basic skills.

[orionz06]

So either gaming is totally relevant to self defense shooting skillset or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

Shooting well is relevant. Games are a way to develop shooting skills and grow as a shooter.

Dropping guns is bad, games or not. If you're at a match it's Dairy Queen, if you're super-ninja it's still not cool.

[BigT]

Because so many, especially here, have expounded on the major relevance that gaming has with self defense, especially skill sets required to "not get killed on the streetz" and then we have this completely pointless thread on something only gamers would have conversations about.

So either gaming is totally relevant to self defense shooting skillset or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

But youre a whole lot less likely to get sent home from tactical timmy day camp for dropping a gun than a match


And reading you're previous posts I know you're a lot brighter than anyone who woukd belive this post
#weaktroll (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=weaktroll) 4/10

[voodoo_man]

Oh no, looks like I hit the gamer nerve again.

How dare I speak negatively of your beloved game with all the rules that come with it.

You what doesn't have rules? Reality.

This entire topic and thread is completely rhetorical and completely limited to gaming. So please if you have this problem, you likely have a problem with how reality works.

Go ahead and turn up that butthurt, I'll put my flame suit on.

[orionz06]

If a majority of the rounds you fire are not against 100% independently thinking people who wish to do you harm and are equipped to do so you're gaming one way or another. That's reality.

[voodoo_man]

If a majority of the rounds you fire are not against 100% independently thinking people who wish to do you harm and are equipped to do so you're gaming one way or another. That's reality.

Yeeahhh no. Games have rules, like the topic of this thread states.

Less dogma more reality.

[orionz06]

dog·ma
ˈdôɡmə/
noun
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

Where?

[cclaxton]

Safe gun handling goes beyond gaming. When it comes to gun handling, gun safety rules are true everywhere, even in combat.
Maybe not in Russia.
Cody

[voodoo_man]

Where?


Safe gun handling goes beyond gaming. When it comes to gun handling, gun safety rules are true everywhere, even in combat.
Maybe not in Russia.
Cody

Don't ya hate it when you are trying to make a point and have your own people crush it for you?

[cclaxton]

Don't ya hate it when you are trying to make a point and have your own people crush it for you?
What I hate is trolling in a gun forum, and especially when it comes to safety.
But nothing is sacred to trolls.
I despise them. They are what have ruined many good conversations.
Cody

[Peally]

You what doesn't have rules? Reality.

You are the ultimate Tactical Timmy, we're all very impressed.

It's a rules discussion. Considering your point of contention is wildly unsupported garbage (at best) perhaps you would be more productive posting elsewhere.

[voodoo_man]

Called a troll, check.

Told what is based in reality is garbage, check.

My job here is done.

[45dotACP]

Everyone gearing for pFestivus I see...

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[Peally]

Called a troll, check.

Told what is based in reality is garbage, check.

My job here is done.

It's not PFestivus yet, I'm sure during your yearly grilling you'll get the usual thank yous.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

What is the call if on the draw your WML falls off, hits the dirt and it starts to strobe - along with the red laser activating!

If dropping the gun is bad, how about throwing it down range and stating: OH, I've thrown my roscoe down range.

Taken from real life!