Best polymer 9mm target pistol for under $1000

[bimmerland]

I love my kimber pro carry II 9mm because of its weight but it lacks in capacity. So here's what I'm looking for.
Requirements - no particular order

1 - Weight around 25 ounces with no mags
2 - Polymer design to reduce weight
3 - High capacity of at least 15 rounds or more.
4 - 18 degree grip angle similar to 1911 design.
5 - Optional interchangeable back straps
6 - Excellent sights - don't have to be night sights
7 - Option for red dot installation
8 - Excellent trigger with pull under 5 pounds. Will not mind installation of a trigger kit if necessary.
9 - Must have at least 2 safeties

Been shooting a 9mm loaded SA but weight getting to be an issue relating to accuracy. Arthritic hands can't hold a 43 ounce gun long enough for accurate shots. My Kimber is very accurate but lacks in capacity and sight options. I load my own rounds so I have a reliable and comfortable formula.

I shoot mainly paper and regularly get groups of 1.5 inches at 7 yards with the Kimber free standing.

Please give me any suggestions pertaining to guns you have shot and not just word of mouth. I'm looking for real world experience.

Remember weight and capacity are very critical in this decision.

Thanks in advance for all your suggestions. If you have any questions please PM me.

[Kyle Reese]

Glock 19 / 17 / 34 MOS

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[bimmerland]

Glock 19 / 17 / 34 MOS

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Must have manual safety and the option for red dot optics

[Sigfan26]

Must have manual safety and the option for red dot optics

Add a Comineli safety.


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[Cookie Monster]

Must have manual safety and the option for red dot optics

MOS has the options for red dots, your post says safeties, not manual safety. Not being a dick, just clarifying.

[bimmerland]

Add a Comineli safety.


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I assume g unsmithing required.

[bimmerland]

MOS has the options for red dots, your post says safeties, not manual safety. Not being a dick, just clarifying.
I stand corrected. Must be a manual safety.

[MSparks909]

M&P Core with thumb safety. Set aside money for Apex trigger parts and potentially an Apex barrel.

[Colt191145lover]

CZ P07 or P09 might be a option.

[bimmerland]

M&P Core with thumb safety. Set aside money for Apex trigger parts and potentially an Apex barrel.
Will that still keep the price under $1000

[MSparks909]

Without an optic, yes. Or darn close.

[orionz06]

Glock 19 / 17 / 34 MOS

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Here's a 1998 G19, 10 rounds at 10 yards:
http://i.imgur.com/uXug0wD.jpg

[bimmerland]

Without an optic, yes. Or darn close.
Thanks

[bimmerland]

Here's a 1998 G19, 10 rounds at 10 yards:
http://i.imgur.com/uXug0wD.jpg
Still have a requirement for a manual safety.

[Leroy Suggs]

Why does it have to have a manual safety?

[MSparks909]

Thanks

Yep. And the thumb safeties on the M&P pistols is just like a 1911 thumb safety. If you don't need a red dot, then look at the new 2.0 models. If you want a red dot capability, the M&P Core 9L is what you want. Has different optic plates so you can mount different red dot sights. Same grip angle as a 1911 as well.

Edit: Just saw that the Core doesn't come with a thumb safety from the factory. Whoops. A gunsmith can add one though.

[Mirolynmonbro]

This HK might be an option too. http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/pistols/sfp9-2/sfp9-or/product-overview.html

[bimmerland]

Excellent feedback. So far consensus is S&W 11254. 9mm with manual safety. With some minor mods should be a good shooter.

[45dotACP]

Do you want cowitnessed irons with the RDS? Are you okay with a single manual safety? What kind of red dot did you want to use?

I'd just go with the M&P 2.0 with the thumb safety and have it cut for a red dot. The M&Ps I've shot will easily shoot 1.5 inch groups at 7 yards. You will want tall sights to cowitness and I think it has interchangeable backstraps. But you'll have to live with the one manual safety and that's pretty across the board. I don't know any polymer pistols that have two manual safeties.

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[bimmerland]

Do you want cowitnessed irons with the RDS? Are you okay with a single manual safety? What kind of red dot did you want to use?

I'd just go with the M&P 2.0 with the thumb safety and have it cut for a red dot. The M&Ps I've shot will easily shoot 1.5 inch groups at 7 yards. You will want tall sights to cowitness and I think it has interchangeable backstraps. But you'll have to live with the one manual safety and that's pretty across the board. I don't know any polymer pistols that have two manual safeties.

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One manual safety is acceptable. The one I found has a slide safety so that is acceptable

[pastaslinger]

No offense but the M&P is not a gun I would consider a "target shooting gun," just because it happens to meet your secondary requirements it completely misses tbe mark as for your primary requirement of being a good target gun

Like mentioned, the CZ P-09 could be an option and lots of people like it (I do not, it just doesn't fit my hands)

The VP9L that is coming should have an option safety

The upcoming SIG P320 X5 would fit your requirements minus manual safety but I honestly dislike that requirement

Glock MOS has been mentioned

The PPQ Q5 and Canik TP9SFX also are options

[psalms144.1]

I would agree that if "target shooting" (which I assume means accuracy shooting) is the goal, S&W M&P would NEVER be my choice. The M2.0 might be better, but the jury is still out on that.

I would wait for the VP9LS, in the optics ready version. I bet that will meet all of your requirements handily.

[JTQ]

I'd just go with the M&P 2.0 with the thumb safety and have it cut for a red dot.
Would the loaded chamber indicator on the 5" gun be in the way of the cut for the optic?

[spinmove_]

CZ P07 or P09 might be a option.

I don't think I've ever seen a P-07 or P-09 with a red dot, but this is what I would be seriously looking at with your criteria.


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[Colt191145lover]

There is a fellow shooting a P09 at 100 yards with a red dot getting fantastic groups over on one of the CZ forums.

[jeep45238]

USP Expert or USP Match (if you can find one)

Red dot options:
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?26493-Got-my-Burris-Fastfire-sight-today&
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/225732-hk-usp-tactical-rmr-milled-slide-2.html
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/225732-hk-usp-tactical-rmr-milled-slide.html

I highly doubt for your price point or sans gunsmithing you'll get what you're after for accuracy and optic. I wouldn't even consider a M&P. If you're open to buying used, and having some smith work done, you could get closer. Reconsidering the safety mandate or the polymer mandate will open a lot more options.

[El Cid]

MOS has the options for red dots, your post says safeties, not manual safety. Not being a dick, just clarifying.

Lol! Exactly. And I presume he wants a slide mounted red dot - but a red dot can be mounted on any firearm. ;)

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steelmasterlg.jpg
*photo courtesy of The Firearm Blog.

[NerdAlert]

Seems like the CZ P-09 sent to CZ custom for slide milling would fit the bill. Adding the Cajun gun works trigger parts and mags would probably push you over $1000 though. If you go with the stock trigger it should be around $1000 with milling and a red dot sight. Capacity is 19 + 1 or 21 + 1 with factory extensions.


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[MGW]

I love my kimber pro carry II 9mm because of its weight but it lacks in capacity. So here's what I'm looking for.
Requirements - no particular order

1 - Weight around 25 ounces with no mags
2 - Polymer design to reduce weight
3 - High capacity of at least 15 rounds or more.
4 - 18 degree grip angle similar to 1911 design.
5 - Optional interchangeable back straps
6 - Excellent sights - don't have to be night sights
7 - Option for red dot installation
8 - Excellent trigger with pull under 5 pounds. Will not mind installation of a trigger kit if necessary.
9 - Must have at least 2 safeties

Been shooting a 9mm loaded SA but weight getting to be an issue relating to accuracy. Arthritic hands can't hold a 43 ounce gun long enough for accurate shots. My Kimber is very accurate but lacks in capacity and sight options. I load my own rounds so I have a reliable and comfortable formula.

I shoot mainly paper and regularly get groups of 1.5 inches at 7 yards with the Kimber free standing.

Please give me any suggestions pertaining to guns you have shot and not just word of mouth. I'm looking for real world experience.

Remember weight and capacity are very critical in this decision.

Thanks in advance for all your suggestions. If you have any questions please PM me.

Are you shooting bullseye matches or just looking for an accurate range gun?

[bimmerland]

Are you shooting bullseye matches or just looking for an accurate range gun?
Accurate range gun

[GOTURBACK]

Comes in a little over your proposed budget but the HK USP Expert is available for order $1,243.00 from cross creek guns a very reputable dealer.

[bimmerland]

Comes in a little over your proposed budget but the HK USP Expert is available for order $1,243.00 from cross creek guns a very reputable dealer.
Thanks. I'll look into it.

[rauchman]

Comes in a little over your proposed budget but the HK USP Expert is available for order $1,243.00 from cross creek guns a very reputable dealer.

This would be my choice as well. I can't of anything else that meets A.) manual safety requirement B.) excellent accuracy. I would ASSume there is a mount that attaches to the rail that would support a red dot if a milled slide is not an option.

Actually, now that I think about it, would a Beretta PX4 work?

[GOTURBACK]

Thanks. I'll look into it.
It is really a handgun designed for target shooting it comes with fully adjustable sights, a trigger overtravel adjustment screw, DA/SA with manual safety, extended barrel, it is capable of exceptional accuracy, very high reliability and durability. If you really want to enhance it's performance beyond factory send it to Rick Holm of Lone Wolf and have him work his magic. If someone could point to any other pistol which would have comparable features from the factory I would like to know what it is? Good luck in making your decision.

[rob_s]

Must have manual safety and the option for red dot optics


I stand corrected. Must be a manual safety.


Why does it have to have a manual safety?

Wondering the same thing...

[Default.mp3]

I shoot mainly paper and regularly get groups of 1.5 inches at 7 yards with the Kimber free standing.Do you usually only shoot at 7 yards?

[bimmerland]

No. I shoot tactical at 3, 5, and 7 yards.

[orionz06]

No. I shoot tactical at 3, 5, and 7 yards.

What exactly is that?


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[bimmerland]

That's what I learned when I took my CCW class. I was instructed to qualify at those distances so my tactical or personal defense shooting involves those distances such that I might encounter when at home or when I carry. According to my instructor unless the threat is imminent 7 yards should be the maximum distance to engage a threat. My instructor developed the course for the NC justice academy.

[spinmove_]

That's what I learned when I took my CCW class. I was instructed to qualify at those distances so my tactical or personal defense shooting involves those distances such that I might encounter when at home or when I carry. According to my instructor unless the threat is imminent 7 yards should be the maximum distance to engage a threat. My instructor developed the course for the NC justice academy.

I wonder if your instructor has ever heard of the Tueller Drill.


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[orionz06]

That's what I learned when I took my CCW class. I was instructed to qualify at those distances so my tactical or personal defense shooting involves those distances such that I might encounter when at home or when I carry. According to my instructor unless the threat is imminent 7 yards should be the maximum distance to engage a threat. My instructor developed the course for the NC justice academy.

You're in the right place to correct some of what you may have been taught.


What specific courses of fire are you shooting?


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[Jim Watson]

Would the grip safety of an XDm serve you? They have an optic ready, optic INCLUDED model.

I think you need to extend your range.
You quote the instructor "According to my instructor unless the threat is imminent 7 yards should be the maximum distance to engage a threat."
I assure you, a threat can get very imminent at most any range.

Shooting at longer and more varied range will increase your skill and keep you interested.

You might look into competition. USPSA has a "Carry Optic" division, and you can shoot IDPA with one under the "Specialty" heading. That will REALLY motivate you to improve.

[MSparks909]

Bimmer: First off, good on you for getting your CCW. Second, you stumbled upon one of (if not THE) finest pistol shooting sources of information on the internet. Spend a couple of days reading the marksmanship and fundamentals section. Lots of good information there, and you'll also see that many on this forum use pistols out to 25Y with very good accuracy (and even further). This forum can often make one feel like they're drinking from a fire hose with the amount of knowledge available to members and lurkers alike, but if you take the time to read and listen to the advice given on here, it will surely help you to become a better shooter.

Don't limit yourself to 7 yards.

[Poconnor]

If it a range gun why the need for a manual safety? The short easy answer is HK. VP9 , USP or P30LS. You can get a frame mounted safety on the P30LS; I have two and they are great. I had a USP compact 9mm that I never should have sold. The P30, USP compact, and VP9 9mm all use the same mags a big plus for me. As for the 7 yards limit ? I think you misheard the instructor. I can see the 7 yard line for none dedicated people qualifying. But that is just a base line minimum not an end goal.

[rob_s]

That's what I learned when I took my CCW class. I was instructed to qualify at those distances so my tactical or personal defense shooting involves those distances such that I might encounter when at home or when I carry. According to my instructor unless the threat is imminent 7 yards should be the maximum distance to engage a threat. My instructor developed the course for the NC justice academy.

You need a new instructor.

Which isn't to say that yours is bad, just that you need a different, broader, perspective.

[bimmerland]

My indoor range is limit to maybe 20 yards at most and outdoor ranges are almost an hour away.

[orionz06]

Shoot at 20y then.


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[Larry Sellers]

Shooting at longer distances makes those 3,5 and 7 yard "defensive" shots a walk in the park.

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[walker2713]

You need a new instructor.

Which isn't to say that yours is bad, just that you need a different, broader, perspective.

^^^^^^^^^
This!

[bimmerland]

Since I'm not in a rush there is a gun show coming to Raleigh first weekend in May. Might be a good time to check out all the suggestions I have gladly received to see which one feels the most comfortable. I find that the better it fits and feels the better I will shoot it. Thanks again for all the suggestions. They will be well put to use.

[orionz06]

Since I'm not in a rush there is a gun show coming to Raleigh first weekend in May. Might be a good time to check out all the suggestions I have gladly received to see which one feels the most comfortable. I find that the better it fits and feels the better I will shoot it. Thanks again for all the suggestions. They will be well put to use.

How are you measuring performance?


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[bimmerland]

That's a tough question. For tactical if I can draw and put two rounds in the center of a paper target in 2.5 seconds I'm doing well. My second criteria is putting as many rounds through a 1 inch target pasties from 5 yards free standing. The best I've done is knock off an empty 12 gauge shotgun shell at 10 yards. Most of this was done with a ruger match champion. My kimber is used for timed drills like draw and fire 2 rounds as quick as I can. I like to advance to longer distances but need to find a gun similar in weight to my kimber. Doesn't have to be single stack 1911 but just keep the weight down. My SA loaded would make my hand shake while acquiring a target so reducing weight will help steady my hand. Hope that answers your question.

[JonInWA]

While my first recommendation would be a Glock G34, I understand your desire for a manual safety (although I don't personally share the need for one on a Glock).

I'd explore the perceptual need for one carefully; I'm not saying that you're wrong, but recommend that you think through and be able to articulate the need for one for you, particularly in line with how you plan on using the one you choose. For example, if you're concerned about a negligent/accidental discharge due to you're feeling that the Glock trigger is too light, you can always switch to a NY1 spring, which will provide a slightly heavier, crisper, more defined reset trigger-or even a NY2, which is even heavier. Then you can concurrently play with various connectors to inexpensively tune to your desire.

Otherwise, an HK USP/P30 makes eminent sense, and can be had as you specify. HK also has a longer-slide, manual safety VP9 in the works, although it's not yet available in the US.

I'd suggest carefully re-evaluating your criteria, and then proceeding with a purchase (and if you can, rent several of the alternatives before committing).

Best, Jon

[1986s4]

Without looking, I'm pretty sure CZ has a optics ready line of pistols to include the P09. The CZ P09, 07 have reputations for accuracy.

[Kyle Reese]

Without looking, I'm pretty sure CZ has a optics ready line of pistols to include the P09. The CZ P09, 07 have reputations for accuracy.

https://czcustom.com/new-firearms/cz-pistols-factory/cz-p09-carry-optic.html

[shooter220]

There are a lot of good reasons to expand your course of fire that you use in practice. It is a rare session that I don't shoot at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards. The performance expectation clearly changes quite a bit between them.

I would personally recommend the P30S (probably NOT the L model, but it isn't much longer - if you are planning to carry it). But that is just me. I have about 3 years of training time with mine, and love it. It is a pleasure to shoot, though the trigger could probably use some work.

Downsides - less holster options than a Glock, but plenty of them. Mags are more expensive, but not horrifyingly so. Some people hate the mag release, I personally love it.

-shooter


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[coN]

With your req, id also go CZ P09/07. But 7 yards? To echo what someone else said, not bad info, you just need a broader perspective. All my life ive typically trained at 10 - 15 yards, always ending with shots @ 20 and 25. This was my old mans way of thinking and it just embedded into me. "If you are able to hit those (10 - 15, 20 yard) shots, any ranges below are easy to hit, even at rapid fire" is what he would tell me. That "a gun fight is a delicate balance of accuracy and speed". So far, whats hes told me seems to be working out fine. *shrug*

I suppose it comes down to how confident (and capable) you are hitting shots at a given distance. lol I force myself to shot long range shots with my 19 (and occassionally with the 26) since its what I commonly carry. The 17 is a bit easier. The 34 makes me feel like im cheating, especially since i went with a Ameriglo Orange T-Cap front with a Pro Operator rear setup.

[bimmerland]

With your req, id also go CZ P09/07. But 7 yards? To echo what someone else said, not bad info, you just need a broader perspective. All my life ive typically trained at 10 - 15 yards, always ending with shots @ 20 and 25. This was my old mans way of thinking and it just embedded into me. "If you are able to hit those (10 - 15, 20 yard) shots, any ranges below are easy to hit, even at rapid fire" is what he would tell me. That "a gun fight is a delicate balance of accuracy and speed". So far, whats hes told me seems to be working out fine. *shrug*

I suppose it comes down to how confident (and capable) you are hitting shots at a given distance. lol I force myself to shot long range shots with my 19 (and occassionally with the 26) since its what I commonly carry. The 17 is a bit easier. The 34 makes me feel like im cheating, especially since i went with a Ameriglo Orange T-Cap front with a Pro Operator rear setup.
The only issue is have with the P09 is the modular trigger which I was told is not tunable. I wonder if they have drop in upgrades.

[NerdAlert]

The only issue is have with the P09 is the modular trigger which I was told is not tunable. I wonder if they have drop in upgrades.

I'm not sure what you mean by "modular", but Cajun Gun Works and CZ custom do some very good trigger work on the polymer CZs. They also sell the parts and the work can be done by the user if your up for that.


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[bimmerland]

What is the omega system in the P09. From what I read it is a modular design

[jeep45238]

In regards of changing the safety safety to decocking only , and that's it.


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[bimmerland]

In regards of changing the safety safety to decocking only , and that's it.


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Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

[orionz06]

The only issue is have with the P09 is the modular trigger which I was told is not tunable. I wonder if they have drop in upgrades.

It's tunable as all hell.

[Joe in PNG]

You may just want to focus the gun you already have. Your Kimber should be good out to 25 yards+.

[MGW]

I'm going to recommend something that will require you to think outside the box a little. Consider a single action 226.

I know it's not polymer but they weigh around 34 ounces unloaded. I believe you can find the Elite model with a Romeo 1 red dot in the $12-1300 range.

They have a single frame mounted safety that is very similar to a 1911. This pistol will do everything you want it to do and are very accurate.

A good friend of mine owns a single action Legion 226 and it is as accurate as anything I've ever shot.

[Paltares8]

I'd just like to add that maybe you should try a few lighter guns and see if they significantly help your hand shaking. I personally found that a (somewhat) heavier gun can cut down on wobbliness. Also, I would echo everything everyone already said. If you just want a new gun, which is fine, go for it. But if you think you need one to be able to be more accurate, etc., it seems like you could still ring a lot out of what you already have.

[Zincwarrior]

USP Expert or USP Match (if you can find one)

Red dot options:
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?26493-Got-my-Burris-Fastfire-sight-today&
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/225732-hk-usp-tactical-rmr-milled-slide-2.html
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/225732-hk-usp-tactical-rmr-milled-slide.html

I highly doubt for your price point or sans gunsmithing you'll get what you're after for accuracy and optic. I wouldn't even consider a M&P. If you're open to buying used, and having some smith work done, you could get closer. Reconsidering the safety mandate or the polymer mandate will open a lot more options.

I believe he also had a weight limit, hence the polymer yes?

[ScotchMan]

Is this going to be a carry gun? Reading the original post again, it sounds like it may be; I am inferring this because of the references to defensive ranges and CCW classes.

This brings up a few questions and concerns that I think should be addressed. First, I wouldn't think that a "target" pistol would be the best way to describe a carry gun. "Combat accuracy" is a term that is bandied about a lot, but basically if you can get combat effective hits on target, it is accurate enough. I believe all quality modern pistols that would be recommended on this forum are capable of this level of mechanical accuracy. However, some features that go into a true "target" gun may range from unnecessary to counterproductive for a defensive-use carry gun.

In my estimation, things you want to consider for a carry gun are, in order, 1) reliability (MUST go bang every time), 2) size and comfort (if you aren't going to carry it consistently, nothing else matters) 3) YOUR ability to run it well, 4) capacity, and then as a distant 5th or beyond, things like accuracy, assuming the gun doesn't have issues.

I know this isn't the question you asked, so apologies if I am coming across preachy, but I think its common for some to focus on the wrong things when evaluating guns. To borrow a phrase from these pages that I am quite fond of:

Mission drives the gear train.

If you are going to have a separate target and carry gun, then I think the idea of manual of arms needs to come up. If you are carrying a 1911, as it sounds like you are, the target/range/practice gun should be a 1911 and as similar to the carry gun as possible.

[bimmerland]

I have a lightweight 9mm 1911 already but I can't use it as a target gun because of my limitations and it being a 4 inch barrel. This is my EDC and for close tactical work it's a great gun. I'm looking for a range/target gun with a 5 inch barrel and weighing no more than 27 ounces unloaded. It has to have a manual safety and I won't budge on that requirement. If it turns out to be another 9mm 1911 then so be it but would prefer a higher capacity. These requirements are cast in concrete. All answers should take my requirements into consideration and not try and change them.

[Default.mp3]

Why the 5" barrel? Longer barrels do not impart more accuracy; in fact, quite the opposite, as longer barrels have more flex and thus degrades accuracy (though this is not of a practical concern with handgun barrel lengths). People can generally shoot more accurately with handguns with longer slides, but that has to do with sight radius, which is completely irrelevant once you install a red dot.

Why a manual safety, if it's just a range/target gun? Having a manual safety in it of itself imparts no real advantages in the whole commonality-of-manual-of-arms argument, particularly if you're just going to be doing slow-fire type stuff.

Exactly what kind of accuracy are you looking for? To be frank, 1.5" at 7 yards is easily achievable by any number of off-the-shelf handguns; in fact, if a gun couldn't, I would consider it complete garbage. For reference, the Wilson Combat CQBs are guaranteed to be 1" guns at 25 yards. The H&K VP9, which has a ~4" barrel, has been able to turn out 6 shot groups averaging 2.40" at 50 yards, when shot with match grade ammo.

Ironically, the only gun I can think of off the top of my head is an M&P9 long slide... except M&Ps in 9mm have a reputation for poor accuracy.

The H&K USP Expert lacks backstraps.
The CZ P09 has a 4.5" barrel.
The Beretta 92s lack backstraps, has too short a barrel, has a metal frame, and is difficult to mill for a red dot.
The Sig X5s have a metal frame, and lack backstraps.
Etc.

[jeep45238]

Bro, you already have a gun that's easily capable of the work in your 9mm lightweight. An inch of sight radius isn't going to net you much. A set of sights that work for your eyes will. Same with a case of ammo and some instruction from someone who will push your abilities, not generically limit them.

If you're going to cast things in concrete like that, then you're not going to get much of anything beyond what you already own. Your loss - you don't know what you don't know, and all that jazz.


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[bimmerland]

The sight idea may be a possibility but as you know changing site on a Kimber is rather difficult. There is a local show coming up in May that might produce what I'm looking for. I love my SA 9mm loaded but recently I've had a situation where it's too heavy for me to shoot as accurately is a have previously been able to do with that gun. At one time I was knocking off shotgun and 22 caliber empty shells at 10 to 15 yards. Can't do that anymore. My pro carry 9mm works well for close tactical work but I can't seem to replicate my longer distance shots. I felt that getting a lightweight 9mm possibly with target sights would get me back to "bullseye" shooting. I'm still looking for answers. Thanks for the kind help.

[ScotchMan]

I buggered this all up; please delete this.

[ScotchMan]

I have a lightweight 9mm 1911 already but I can't use it as a target gun because of my limitations and it being a 4 inch barrel. This is my EDC and for close tactical work it's a great gun. I'm looking for a range/target gun with a 5 inch barrel and weighing no more than 27 ounces unloaded. It has to have a manual safety and I won't budge on that requirement. If it turns out to be another 9mm 1911 then so be it but would prefer a higher capacity. These requirements are cast in concrete. All answers should take my requirements into consideration and not try and change them.

I would then increase, and simplify, these requirements to be "it should also be a 1911". Just a thought. Getting used to the draw, recoil, trigger and reset characteristics of a striker or TDA gun may be counterproductive to being prepared to use the carry gun. I think the manual safety thing was confusing when we didn't realize it was a gun complimenting a carry gun which has a manual safety; it makes sense if this is going to be a training gun backing up a carry gun.

Given these new requirements, I would recommend the Springfield EMP 4. It is 31oz empty, which may be problematic. It does hold 10 rounds in the magazine though.

Ultimately it sounds like the ideal answer to this is a polymer 1911 in 9mm; I am not aware of such a gun. In the absence of that, a P30 with manual safety makes sense, but the trigger and other characteristics mentioned above will be very different than a 1911, which would concern me.

Another thought, which you're not going to like, but I'm going to say anyway, is getting a new system altogether. Instead of trying to find a range gun that compliments your 9mm 1911 for carry, get a new carry gun. It may serve for extended range use, and then you don't need two guns. Or you can get a larger version of the same thing for training. This would be in the vein of Glock 26 and Glock 17.

[bimmerland]

If the EMP has a longer barrel than my pro carry that could be a possibility. My original SA 9mm weighed a hefty 43 ounces so finding something a little more than 6 ounces over my Kimber might be workable. Thanks

[ScotchMan]

If the EMP has a longer barrel than my pro carry that could be a possibility. My original SA 9mm weighed a hefty 43 ounces so finding something a little more than 6 ounces over my Kimber might be workable. Thanks

It's a 4" barrel. They seem good from what I've seen. The ultimate answer to this is the Wilson Combat EDC X9, which uses modified PPQ magazines and holds 15+1, and is 29oz unloaded. They are $2895 though, which is 3x your stated budget.

[bimmerland]

Yeah. That's a little too steep for me.

[spinmove_]

CZ P-09. Convert it to safety out of the box. It's polymer, has a long sight radius (something you don't actually need), holds 19 rounds of 9mm, and has a nice SA trigger.


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[bimmerland]

The P09 is on my short list

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[pangloss]

I've been following this thread but not closely, and I may have missed some points. Am I correct in thinking that you want the pistol as a separate practice pistol from your EDC pistol, particularly for shooting targets placed at distances greater than seven yards? If so, then within your stated parameters, I would choose the gun that is most similar to your EDC pistol (which I believe is a 1911).

There are a number of threads here on choosing "platforms." Basically by dedicating the majority of your practice time and ammo to a single platform, you'll maximize your results. You might consider re-framing the question to be about what pistol would be the most best choice for EDC rather than a question about selecting a different pistol to help you attain goals that are not attainable with the gun you carry. Having said that, I practice mostly with a Glock 19 and often carry a Glock 26. Buying a CZ P-09 as a practice gun and a P-07 as a carry gun strikes me as completely reasonable. In any case, you're clearly putting a lot of thought and effort into becoming a better shooter, so I hope you find something that does what you need. I just wanted to gently challenge the premise of the basic question under discussion.

(And now I see that ScotchMan just made this point, so I apologize for the duplication.)

[Kyle Reese]

The P09 is on my short list

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Call Dave Milam at Cajun Gun Works. He tuned my P09, and I was extremely impressed with it. You can, I'd you wish, purchase a P09 from him, tuned to your liking.

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[Mjolnir]

GLOCK 17 or 19 and add a "Gadget" or Striker Control Device. Takes maybe two minutes to install.


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[Mjolnir]

Another option would be an HK P2000 with the LEM trigger and the P30 with the LEM trigger. Neither of these have external safeties and if you MUST have a safety then you can have a safety on the P30.

May I offer you an opinion?

Get over the external safety.

Straight trigger finger!

If it's a Double Action pistol (it will have an exposed hammer) place your thumb on that safety when RE-holstering and apply pressure.


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[Mjolnir]

As for "red dot ready"....

You will have to send your pistol out to be machined for that. ATEi seems to be the place at the moment.

For someone just beginning to shoot just go buy yourself a GLOCK 19, purchase the sights you like and TRAIN. If you wish for an additional level of safety then purchase and install a "Gadget"/SCD. If you still don't like it I'll purchase it from you.


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[bimmerland]

What is a SCD and where can I find it on the web. Thanks

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[JTQ]

What is a SCD and where can I find it on the web. Thanks

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https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?712-The-Gadget-REVEALED

[walker2713]

May I offer you an opinion?

Get over the external safety.

Straight trigger finger!



^^^^^^^^^
THIS

I agree about the HK P2000...I have one in .40 and one in 9mm...both are V1....excellent pistols!

[bimmerland]

I appreciate the suggestion regarding external safety but I require it as part of my safety concerns. Every firearm I presently own aside from my revolvers has a manual safety. It's my comfort level.

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[jeep45238]

If you're reliant on a safety to prevent a negligent discharge, what's saying the same mistake couldn't be made and the safety ISNT engaged?

Having an extra obstacle to a mistake isn't a bad thing - believing it will prevent a mistake is.


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[bimmerland]

My experience is limited to 6 years and around 50000 rounds. In all that time never an AD with manual safety and I plan to keep it that way.

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[mrozowjj]

50,000 rounds in 6 years is quite a lot. If you're shooting that much you really ought to consider trying some distances further than 7 yards. I don't know what kind of training you're doing but you might also want to look into USPSA shooting. The new Carry Optics division seems like it would be a great fit for a gun with the requirements you listed and it would be a lot more fun than solo training on a static range.

[bimmerland]

I mainly shoot in an indoor range wirh my mentor who's been shooting for over 50 years. We mainly concentrate on tactical shooting with the occasional 15 yard bullseye shooting. The firearm I'm interested in is primarily for bullseye shooting. I use my Kimber pro carry for tactical. We shoot around 400 rounds a week.

[orionz06]

Not really adding to the conversation but this really all sounds rather peculiar.





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[Shootur44]

G19 Glock can not be beat for several reasons.



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[bimmerland]

Not really adding to the conversation but this really all sounds rather peculiar.





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I what way?

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[Shootur44]

Parts are always readily available , mine has never failed to function even under water with sealed primers , perfect size , easy to shoot and easy to conceal. All sorts of tactical parts or concealment accessaries easy to work on even if know nothing about them.


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[Camovan]

I appreciate the suggestion regarding external safety but I require it as part of my safety concerns. Every firearm I presently own aside from my revolvers has a manual safety. It's my comfort level.

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My experience is limited to 6 years and around 50000 rounds. In all that time never an AD with manual safety and I plan to keep it that way.

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How many AD have you had with your revolvers?

[MSparks909]

50,000 rounds is a LOT of shooting. No disrespect but some of your questions, statements and shooting performances just seem...odd for the amount of rounds fired. And please stop referring to standard defensive shooting drills and the like as "Tactical" shooting. It's not.

[pastaslinger]

Get a Beretta 92, join the movement

[WOLFIE]

I think that the HK Expert has the same grip angle as the 1911, the manual safety is in the same place as the 1911, it can be carried cocked and locked, and should be a very accurate 9mm gun. Factory 15 round and 18 round magazines. I guess some would call the factory trigger on this model a match trigger. It is not the standard usp trigger set up. The magazine release on the HK is very different than the 1911 magazine release though.

[spinmove_]

50,000 rounds is a LOT of shooting. No disrespect but some of your questions, statements and shooting performances just seem...odd for the amount of rounds fired. And please stop referring to standard defensive shooting drills and the like as "Tactical" shooting. It's not.

So much this. The "tactical" moniker is kinda silly. And for the amount of rounds you're sending down the pipe you should be shooting past 15 yards WAY more often.

I may have missed it, but do you work with a timer at all in either live or dry practice?


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[walker2713]

Got Trolls? :rolleyes:

In my 'never to be humble' opinion this is a load of crap.....

Guy joins in March, makes first post, claims to shoot 50000 rounds in the last six years....400 per week with his "mentor" in an indoor range...not past 7 yards.....

Three day old fish don't smell this bad!

[Duelist]

Yeah, it sounds weird, like Math Doesn't Live Here.

50k rounds/year=just under a case per week, or 961.5.
400 rounds/week=just under 21 cases/year, or 20,800 rounds.

Still a lot of shooting. Would think a guy would be wearing out guns at either of those ammo rates. Certainly springs and small parts.

[walker2713]

Yeah, it sounds weird, like Math Doesn't Live Here.

50k rounds/year=just under a case per week, or 961.5.
400 rounds/week=just under 21 cases/year, or 20,800 rounds.

Still a lot of shooting. Would think a guy would be wearing out guns at either of those ammo rates. Certainly springs and small parts.

He'd also seem just a tad more gun savvy than the OP.....

[Default.mp3]

We mainly concentrate on tactical shooting with the occasional 15 yard bullseye shooting. The firearm I'm interested in is primarily for bullseye shooting.Isn't bullseye shooting generally done at 25 and 50 yards? 15 yards doesn't seem very far.

[bimmerland]

That's the length of the indoor range I go to. I try and make it more difficult by using smaller targets.

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[spinmove_]

That's the length of the indoor range I go to. I try and make it more difficult by using smaller targets.

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Is there another range near you that is longer? What size targets are you shooting for precision at that distance? What kinds of groups are you getting for precision at 15 yards? What metrics are you using to improve on your closer and faster paced shooting?


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[coN]

Okay, with those numbers, I have to ask... All of rounds have been through your Kimber and SA? In that amount of time I went through God knows how many platforms and then settled with what I felt was the best for me. I started out shooting my old mans revolvers, but went through these when I started buying my own; EAA Witness, CZ75, Canik SP01 Clone, Taurus PT111 G2, M&P 1.0 with Safety, Sig SP2022, Bersa Thunder Pro, Sig P250, etc. There was a progression of "I want a safety on my gun to prevent ND's" and after doing stress drills, seeing how easy it was to fuck with a safety I decided since I was so used to DA/SA, "I would rather have a decocker." I was very happy until I finally fired my first striker-fired pistol, a Glock 17. I was shocked I could actually shoot it so well and consistently. A manual-of-arms that I wouldve never considered, but that experience changed everything.

Now I did go through other striker platforms, the PPQ, P320, TP9SF, etc. but I ultimately settled on Glocks, and now m2.0 M&P's. Coming from guns with manual safeties, to decocker only, down to striker-fired with no manual safety. What I did find out? In my experience, guns with safeties are no safer than a properly designed striker-fired gun. Just keep your finger out of the trigger guard until youre ready to fire. Otherwise the gun will only do what is asked of it. Im getting my feet wet with 1911's since I have a Colt Govt but I wont carry it. Its too pretty so its range trips only.

So whats the point of this rant? In 6 years, firing 50,000 rounds, you never played with any other platforms or looked into them with research? I suppose im just echoing others here, but something here does not compute.

[bimmerland]

I didn't mean this to be a rant. I was only asking suggestions from members who have different styles of platforms and which they would recommend with the parameters I have stated. I'm quite comfortable in my style of shooting and my mindset regarding external safeties. I think it's time I request closure to this thread and ingest all the options given to me which I do appreciate. Thanks to all who have given me great input for deciding which platform to use.

[MSparks909]

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[bimmerland]

Good luck with whatever you choose.
Thanks