Shooting outside British Parliament/vehicular attack at Westminster Bridge

[Sero Sed Serio]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/parliament-shooting-latest-news-man-shot-explosions-heard-westminster-london-a7643686.html

I wonder if this is connected to the ISIS call for vehicle/knife attacks. I will be in London this weekend, and probably more than little vigilant...

[TAZ]

Fake news. Those middle aged Asian men are not a threat to anyone.

Be careful when you're over there.

[Kanati]

4 dead, one of whom was a LEO.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/europe/london-uk-parliament-incident-latest/index.html

[LittleLebowski]

http://news.forexlive.com/!/uk-confirms-four-dead-in-terror-attack-including-police-officer-and-attacker-20170322

[Peally]

People will act all nervous for a month and then it'll be back to business as usual. Nothing will change.

[TiroFijo]

According to british media, until minutes ago the suspect was "asian", don't you dare be more geographically specific... :p

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2017/03/22/17/westminster-suspect-3.jpg

[scw2]

According to british media, until minutes ago the suspect was "asian", don't you dare be more geographically specific... :p

Yay progressives! It's not racist if you blame asians! /s

[nalesq]

People will act all nervous for a month and then it'll be back to business as usual. Nothing will change.

Britain will continue to crack down on knives in the hands of private citizens. More anti vehicle barriers will go up. Eventually, there will be a call to install remote kill switches in motor vehicles, that can be activated by law enforcement.


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[TheNewbie]

The good Muslims need to protest in mass on a regular basis. Islam has always had and still has a serious totalitarian and violence problem . I feel bad for the good guys that are Muslim but they need to do some serious reforming.

[TiroFijo]

I wonder if the policeman that was killed was armed...

[voodoo_man]

Unpossible, the UK is a Utopia of left perfection.

Clearly #fakenews (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=fakenews) .

[TiroFijo]

OMG, somebdy please ban Hyundais and knives! Do it for the children!!

[jc000]

The good Muslims need to protest in mass on a regular basis. Islam has always had and still has a serious totalitarian and violence problem . I feel bad for the good guys that are Muslim but they need to do some serious reforming.

I just think we need to accept that Islam and the West and not compatible.

[breakingtime91]

I just think we need to accept that Islam and the West and not compatible.

There are plenty of Muslims that speak out against this/these types of attacks, to loop them in with extremists is a mistake.

[TheNewbie]

Islamic values and the west are not compatible. However, many Muslim immigrants adopt western values and are productive members of society. The problem is that there are massive numbers that do not adopt western values and this causes serious issues.

The Muslims who speak out against this MAY be the majority in places like the U.S., but in the Muslim world there is overwhelming support for acts like this. While I applaud and am thankful to have wonderful muslims in America like Zuhdi Jasser, I think they are fighting a loosing battle.

[LOKNLOD]

We are planning a stop in London this summer on the way back from South Africa.

Guess this is my reminder to make sure we get the will updated.

[Chance]

I wonder if the policeman that was killed was armed...

BBC is saying (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39355108) that he was.

[Wondering Beard]

According to british media, until minutes ago the suspect was "asian", don't you dare be more geographically specific... :p

Asian, in England, means Pakistani/Indian/Afghan etc ..., basically south Asia.

[PD Sgt.]

Lone individual drives a car into a crowd of people, then gets out and starts stabbing additional victims. Sounds a lot like the incident at Ohio State earlier.

Looks like this is one of the plays in the playbook for lone wolf jihadis now. Wonder if it is being pushed by a central source or if it just so happens to also be a convenient means for individuals to wreak havoc in short order.

[scw2]

Asian, in England, means Pakistani/Indian/Afghan etc ..., basically south Asia.

Ah, thanks for that context. Learned something today.

[HCM]

Lone individual drives a car into a crowd of people, then gets out and starts stabbing additional victims. Sounds a lot like the incident at Ohio State earlier.

Looks like this is one of the plays in the playbook for lone wolf jihadis now. Wonder if it is being pushed by a central source or if it just so happens to also be a convenient means for individuals to wreak havoc in short order.

English-language ISIS propaganda magazines like Rumiyah specifically called for vehicle and knife attacks prior to Ohio state attack.

It is being pushed by ISIS for aspiring attackers precisely because it is convenient.

[45dotACP]

English-language ISIS propaganda magazines like Rumiyah specifically called for vehicle and knife attacks prior to Ohio state attack.

It is being pushed by ISIS for aspiring attackers precisely because it is convenient.
It's been done as a team sport in China to devastating effect.

[scw2]

It's been done as a team sport in China to devastating effect.

I haven't heard much about this. Has there been a trend there of multiple attackers using both vehicles and knives as well?

[BaiHu]

I haven't heard much about this. Has there been a trend there of multiple attackers using both vehicles and knives as well?
A couple IIRC. Uighurs and the general population of Chinese have "issues".

http://time.com/4473748/china-terrorism-uighur-xinjiang/

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[45dotACP]

A couple IIRC. Uighers and the general population of Chinese have "issues".

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Yeah...It was back in 14 but something like 29 people were killed.

[MickAK]

There are plenty of Muslims that speak out against this/these types of attacks, to loop them in with extremists is a mistake.

I think you want to not associate with an ignorant and hateful portion of our society. And I respect that. I don't want to either. But I think the reforms that Christianity and other religions have undergone may not be possible with Islam. We live in a society based upon many principles, one of the best being freedom of religion. That doesn't mean we can't agree that a certain religion sucks, if circumstances warrant. I think it does. I think this thinking is often based upon the tendency of Islamic people to be of Arabic or Asian descent, and the obvious history of our country regarding non-whites. I get it. I don't want it. I know the statistics. I know the comparisons of death counts between terrorist attacks and our country's attacks on Jihadists and the corresponding collateral damage. I know. You can talk with these people, you know. They're very common. Just the regular guy, driving your Uber or cooking your food or quietly working in the courthouse. You can get to know them, show your interest, ask them questions and decide for yourself. I did.

I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

[HopetonBrown]

Yay progressives! It's not racist if you blame asians! /s
They still use the term "oriental" in the UK to describe what we'd refer to as Asian. My sister lives in England and her favorite line is "I am not a rug."

[TiroFijo]

I wonder if the policeman that was killed was armed...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4342288/London-terror-attacker-shot-minister-s-GUARD.html

Just what I thought...

"No armed police are thought to have been on duty at the main Carriage Gates, facing Parliament Square. Pc Palmer, who died from his injuries, was unarmed."

[TGS]

They still use the term "oriental" in the UK to describe what we'd refer to as Asian. My sister lives in England and her favorite line is "I am not a rug."

Out of all the derogatory words to use for a race, I still don't understand how "Oriental" became the equivalent of words like zipper-head, slope, dune coon, nigger, etc. Unlike all of those words, Oriental has a legitimate, geographical, non-racial basis. It comes from the word for "East" in latin.

Imagine that calling someone Caucasian is a racist, derogatory term. That's how ridiculous it is (at least to me). If I'm missing something in the history of the word and how it became offensive, please share it. The only thing I've ever heard is because of Chinese labor exploitation and racism in America, but I guess I don't see the nexus to why that's a racist term but calling someone Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, are not considered racist in nature.

Totally off-topic. Feel free to PM.

[blues]

Out of all the derogatory words to use for a race, I still don't understand how "Oriental" became the equivalent of words like zipper-head, slope, dune coon, nigger, etc. Unlike all of those words, Oriental has a legitimate, geographical, non-racial basis. It comes from the word for "East" in latin.

Imagine that calling someone Caucasian is a racist, derogatory term. That's how ridiculous it is (at least to me). If I'm missing something in the history of the word and how it became offensive, please share it. The only thing I've ever heard is because of Chinese labor exploitation and racism in America, but I guess I don't see the nexus to why that's a racist term but calling someone Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, are not considered racist in nature.

Totally off-topic. Feel free to PM.

Language is funny that way...and often makes no sense. "People of color" is not offensive. "Colored people" is. How and when something morphs into totally unacceptable language is a mystery. I am against all terms of derision, prejudice and racial / ethnic / religious intolerance and hatred but sometimes it's hard to keep a current scorecard. The acceptable terms in the LGBTQ community and the black community change at a moment's notice and if one is unaware, woe be unto him or her.

Terms like "thug" and "posse" become co-opted and then if someone outside particular groups should use such a term it has a pejorative racial connotation despite lack of intent.

Same thing with TV journalism. All of a sudden I was hearing about "optics" and "narratives" and plans being "rolled out". Seriously, wtf? Once one reporter or network says it, everyone says it.

Language and its usage appears to change at the speed of light and if you don't want anyone to look askance at you when you open your mouth, you'd better keep your scorecard up to date. :(

[scw2]

Out of all the derogatory words to use for a race, I still don't understand how "Oriental" became the equivalent of words like zipper-head, slope, dune coon, nigger, etc. Unlike all of those words, Oriental has a legitimate, geographical, non-racial basis. It comes from the word for "East" in latin.

Imagine that calling someone Caucasian is a racist, derogatory term. That's how ridiculous it is (at least to me). If I'm missing something in the history of the word and how it became offensive, please share it. The only thing I've ever heard is because of Chinese labor exploitation and racism in America, but I guess I don't see the nexus to why that's a racist term but calling someone Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, are not considered racist in nature.

Totally off-topic. Feel free to PM.

I generally don't care personally, since I agree with you and don't think it's used the same way or as loaded as the other terms you listed. I feel like when it's been directed at me the term was either used out of ignorance and out of ill intent (when coming from a stranger), or as a joke (when coming from a friend). I've never felt threatened by it, like others might feel with other labels.

The answer I found on google/quora summarizes why people find its use questionable: Rugs are oriental; people aren't. Referring to people as "oriental" exoticizes their culture and background. The negative connotations are mostly those that people used to hold against East Asians in the imperialist era, and I hope we've outgrown them.

[blues]

I generally don't care personally, since I agree with you and don't think it's used the same way or as loaded as the other terms you listed. I feel like when it's been directed at me the term was either used out of ignorance and out of ill intent (when coming from a stranger), or as a joke (when coming from a friend). I've never felt threatened by it, like others might feel with other labels.

The answer I found on google/quora summarizes why people find its use questionable: Rugs are oriental; people aren't. Referring to people as "oriental" exoticizes their culture and background. The negative connotations are mostly those that people used to hold against East Asians in the imperialist era, and I hope we've outgrown them.

For similar, somewhat related reasons I wish that we could all simply be Americans...not African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Hispanic-Americans or what have you. Of course at the rate that our country appears to be declining in people's esteem from within and without, pretty soon just being called American may be cause to throw down and that's the saddest thing of all to this American.

[Wondering Beard]

Out of all the derogatory words to use for a race, I still don't understand how "Oriental" became the equivalent of words like zipper-head, slope, dune coon, nigger, etc. Unlike all of those words, Oriental has a legitimate, geographical, non-racial basis. It comes from the word for "East" in latin.

Typical wonky lefty silliness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism)

[Jim Watson]

Everybody is wrought up over a wog in England, while a maddog killer in Wisconsin gets scant notice.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/police-officer-people-killed-wisconsin-shooting-rampage-46321265

[blues]

Everybody is wrought up over a wog in England, while a maddog killer in Wisconsin gets scant notice.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/police-officer-people-killed-wisconsin-shooting-rampage-46321265

I've seen mention of it on USA Today, AP, Google News etc. It's getting coverage and my heart goes out to the officer and innocents whose lives were lost.

Louisiana looks like it's having a bad week as well.

[Nephrology]

Typical wonky lefty silliness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism)

I don't think it has anything to do with leftism and it strikes me as rather self-serving to say so.

You don't really get to decide which terms people prefer and which terms people find offensive. If someone doesn't like being called something, it is really a pretty minimal effort to use a term they explicitly prefer. Even then, why does it matter why they find it offensive? What does it say about you that you are trying to tell someone else how to feel about their own race? It's worth noting there are plenty of people of Asian descent (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tsuchiyama-oriental-insult-20160601-snap-story.html) who don't find the term offensive at all, and that's fine too - they are in the position to make that decision for themselves.

Yes, there are are occasionally appropriate ways to use a word that can have racist connotations (i.e. Orientalism). Orientalism does not refer to an individual and does not reduce a human being to their ethnic background, just like 'spade' and' 'spook' aren't offensive when referring to a garden tool or used as a verb on halloween, respectively. When you turn these terms on people, their individual character is put in the back seat behind the stereotypes and caricatures associated with their race. All slurs - religious, racial, sexist, homophobic, etc - have this reductivist effect, which is exactly why they are considered offensive. Doesn't take a PhD to figure this out.

[blues]

I don't think it has anything to do with leftism and it strikes me as rather self-serving to say so.

You don't really get to decide which terms people prefer and which terms people find offensive. If someone doesn't like being called something, it is really a pretty minimal effort to use a term they explicitly prefer. Even then, why does it matter why they find it offensive? What does it say about you that you are trying to tell someone else how to feel about their own race? It's worth noting there are plenty of people of Asian descent (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tsuchiyama-oriental-insult-20160601-snap-story.html) who don't find the term offensive at all, and that's fine too - they are in the position to make that decision for themselves.

Yes, there are are occasionally appropriate ways to use a word that can have racist connotations (i.e. Orientalism). Orientalism does not refer to an individual and does not reduce a human being to their ethnic background, just like 'spade' and' 'spook' aren't offensive when referring to a garden tool or used as a verb on halloween, respectively. When you turn these terms on people, their individual character is put in the back seat behind the stereotypes and caricatures associated with their race. All slurs - religious, racial, sexist, homophobic, etc - have this reductivist effect, which is exactly why they are considered offensive. Doesn't take a PhD to figure this out.

Neph, where things do get truly wonky is when a group decides that a term they previously chose for themselves and which they used to identify themselves as a group is no longer appropriate and somehow some clueless schmuck (who didn't get the memo) uses the term, (thinking it is respectful), and instead gets a sneer of derision rather than an acknowledgment of respect.

Now, I don't know who gets to legislate these changes and when and where they are adopted but I think it's fair to say that most of us are in the dark until we either see or hear of it on TV or step on our dicks accidentally with no malice aforethought.

[Irelander]

Does it get old to anyone else that we always find out that these dirtbags have been monitored by the authorities due to being radicalized. Gee, then they go out and kill people...that's weird. Maybe there needs to be a real change in protocol for handling people who become radicalized.

My crystal ball says that these types of attacks will continue in Europe and probably the USA until REAL changes are made to deal with Islamic terrorists. I get very tired of hearing how "we will not let the terrorist win" and "they will not break our resolve" and then they do nothing. I mean, in this day and age they still have UNARMED police officers (I can hardly type the words) guarding government offices? We are still monitoring extremists until they go on murderous rampages? Maybe we all need to learn a lesson from Israel?

[TiroFijo]

Controls and monitoring can improve, but the truth is when you have a LARGE number of radicalized-able individuals in your country, it is an uphill battle. How much individual rights and freedom are you willing to sacrifice?

What is amazing is the amount of muslim west hating organizations that are still operating in the UK, and elsewhere.

[Irelander]

Controls and monitoring can improve, but the truth is when you have a LARGE number of radicalized-able individuals in your country, it is an uphill battle. How much individual rights and freedom are you willing to sacrifice?

What is amazing is the amount of muslim west hating organizations that are still operating in the UK, and elsewhere.

I don't mean give up rights, I mean like MAKE SURE YOUR POLICE OFFICERS ARE ARMED, allow gun ownership/CCW, take away their drivers license if they are on a "watch list". I don't know, just do something...aka make an effort.

[Peally]

That is a direct offence to the fragile world views of the local citizenry.

[Chance]

...Wandering back to the original topic: it appears Belgian police have stopped a similar attack. From BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39369202):


A French national of North African origin has been arrested in the Belgian city of Antwerp on suspicion of driving at a crowd, officials say.

A car was driven "at high speed" on De Meir, the northern city's main shopping street, before it was intercepted. There were no reports of any injuries.

Knives, a non-lethal gun and some unidentifiable liquid were found in the car, prosecutors say.


Apparently, soldiers tried to stop it initially, but the driver evaded them. They contacted the police, who somehow managed to halt the vehicle.

[TAZ]

Does it get old to anyone else that we always find out that these dirtbags have been monitored by the authorities due to being radicalized. Gee, then they go out and kill people...that's weird. Maybe there needs to be a real change in protocol for handling people who become radicalized.

My crystal ball says that these types of attacks will continue in Europe and probably the USA until REAL changes are made to deal with Islamic terrorists. I get very tired of hearing how "we will not let the terrorist win" and "they will not break our resolve" and then they do nothing. I mean, in this day and age they still have UNARMED police officers (I can hardly type the words) guarding government offices? We are still monitoring extremists until they go on murderous rampages? Maybe we all need to learn a lesson from Israel?

It's incredibly frustrating to keep hearing that line over and over. However, there are other considerations when they seemingly don't do anything. Just cause your browser history shows Isis related searches and such, but you haven't done anything illegal what are they to do.

Seriously we shouldn't promote the concept pre crime, or more secret lists that limit your rights. If we are ok with limiting the rights of Muslims who read up on Isis today. Who is to say that the next admin won't limit the rights of those who read up on the Constitution or Tax reform. It's not a slide you want to get on.

I agree with the concept of letting folks defend themselves to the best of their ability without government meddling. However, that is now only possible in the USA. For the rest of the world it's not realistically in their psyche anymore.

The biggest thing anyone could do is to STOP the mass importation of people whose culture is diametrically opposed to western society AND whose background is a complete unknown. If the EU/USA/West wants to help these people. Clear out GIANT swaths of land in Syria, Libya, Iraq... and park these people there. Let the UN bring in the peace keepers and be done with them. We may still have a financial price to pay, but at least they would be thousands of miles away.

[Irelander]

It's incredibly frustrating to keep hearing that line over and over. However, there are other considerations when they seemingly don't do anything. Just cause your browser history shows Isis related searches and such, but you haven't done anything illegal what are they to do.

Seriously we shouldn't promote the concept pre crime, or more secret lists that limit your rights. If we are ok with limiting the rights of Muslims who read up on Isis today. Who is to say that the next admin won't limit the rights of those who read up on the Constitution or Tax reform. It's not a slide you want to get on.

I agree with the concept of letting folks defend themselves to the best of their ability without government meddling. However, that is now only possible in the USA. For the rest of the world it's not realistically in their psyche anymore.

The biggest thing anyone could do is to STOP the mass importation of people whose culture is diametrically opposed to western society AND whose background is a complete unknown. If the EU/USA/West wants to help these people. Clear out GIANT swaths of land in Syria, Libya, Iraq... and park these people there. Let the UN bring in the peace keepers and be done with them. We may still have a financial price to pay, but at least they would be thousands of miles away.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Peally]

If I had to guess based on past choices the people of England are largely completely on board with further limitations on rights.

[That Guy]

I agree with the concept of letting folks defend themselves to the best of their ability without government meddling. However, that is now only possible in the USA. For the rest of the world it's not realistically in their psyche anymore.


... What?

Elsewhere here is a link to some pictures of a pro-gun Czech demonstration. They just recently added Article 50 to their Constitution - their version of your Second Amendment. The Swiss are moving towards a shall issue style of carry permits. And plenty of countries already issue carry permits to their citizens, or have armed military reserves, etc. The idea of armed citizenship is gaining popularity all over the place. And at no point has it been strictly an American idea.

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[RJ]

Does it get old to anyone else that we always find out that these dirtbags have been monitored by the authorities due to being radicalized. Gee, then they go out and kill people...that's weird. Maybe there needs to be a real change in protocol for handling people who become radicalized.



Amen.

On the dirtbag, HOW THE FUCK is this a 'lone wolf' terrorist attack when the Authorities ARRESTED 8 OTHER DIRTBAGS today?!



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[Wondering Beard]

I don't think it has anything to do with leftism and it strikes me as rather self-serving to say so.

You don't really get to decide which terms people prefer and which terms people find offensive. If someone doesn't like being called something, it is really a pretty minimal effort to use a term they explicitly prefer. Even then, why does it matter why they find it offensive? What does it say about you that you are trying to tell someone else how to feel about their own race? It's worth noting there are plenty of people of Asian descent (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tsuchiyama-oriental-insult-20160601-snap-story.html) who don't find the term offensive at all, and that's fine too - they are in the position to make that decision for themselves.

Yes, there are are occasionally appropriate ways to use a word that can have racist connotations (i.e. Orientalism). Orientalism does not refer to an individual and does not reduce a human being to their ethnic background, just like 'spade' and' 'spook' aren't offensive when referring to a garden tool or used as a verb on halloween, respectively. When you turn these terms on people, their individual character is put in the back seat behind the stereotypes and caricatures associated with their race. All slurs - religious, racial, sexist, homophobic, etc - have this reductivist effect, which is exactly why they are considered offensive. Doesn't take a PhD to figure this out.

I am not sure whether you are overall disagreeing with me or agreeing with me, or both, or neither. So let me take your paragraphs one by one and see where we end up.


I don't think it has anything to do with leftism and it strikes me as rather self-serving to say so.
It has very much to do with leftism as Edward Said is very much a leftist and the point of view in "Orientalism" comes from and is entirely supported by that "side of the aisle". Whether the book (which meant to criticize the previous type of sociological and cultural analyses of non western societies) has value or not is not part of the discussion. That the word Oriental came to have racist connotations as a result of the book very much is. Without the near universal leftist academic (wonky) support of the book, the word 'oriental' would have remained what it was: a neutral descriptive, in the same manner that 'occidental' is. One can certainly make a critique of past analytical approaches to societal studies without turning a perfectly fine word into some sort of a slur but that is what happened and it was done by lefty academic wonks.


You don't really get to decide which terms people prefer and which terms people find offensive. If someone doesn't like being called something, it is really a pretty minimal effort to use a term they explicitly prefer. Even then, why does it matter why they find it offensive? What does it say about you that you are trying to tell someone else how to feel about their own race? It's worth noting there are plenty of people of Asian descent (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tsuchiyama-oriental-insult-20160601-snap-story.html) who don't find the term offensive at all, and that's fine too - they are in the position to make that decision for themselves.
I'm not sure if your use of "you" is a general one or directed at me in particular.
I'm also not sure where I said or implied (if that paragraph is directed at me) that I get to decide which terms people prefer or don't. Some one asked about the origins of the racist connotation of "oriental" and I responded. I don't decide what people like to be called; if the question comes up, I will ask the individuals in question or just let them tell me; but that is irrelevant to the discussion of how a particular word came to have a different meaning than its original and etymological one. In that link I gave, you will notice that no one asked any "orientals" about whether or not they liked to be called "oriental". Academia did that all by itself by deciding that the previous name and analytical approach to that particular field of study was racist and that, thus, the word inherently had that connotation, without any consideration of or input from the people called oriental.


Yes, there are are occasionally appropriate ways to use a word that can have racist connotations (i.e. Orientalism). Orientalism does not refer to an individual and does not reduce a human being to their ethnic background, just like 'spade' and' 'spook' aren't offensive when referring to a garden tool or used as a verb on halloween, respectively. When you turn these terms on people, their individual character is put in the back seat behind the stereotypes and caricatures associated with their race. All slurs - religious, racial, sexist, homophobic, etc - have this reductivist effect, which is exactly why they are considered offensive. Doesn't take a PhD to figure this out.
Here again, I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, or both, or perhaps you have assumed a lot of what I think by my descriptive of the link? I don't really know.

Orientalism was the name of a field of study, and from what I understand, a particularly arduous one since it's practitioners were expected to have deep language and cultural skills and understanding, which is as it should be and, by itself, contains no implication as to the absence or presence of racism (I'm sure certain practitioners were racist and others not). As a result of Said's book, the name of the field got changed and probably correctly so since the "orient" is vast, as vast as the "occident" and a dividing of the field in its particular geographical, ethnic, and historical components makes a lot of sense.

All slurs are indeed reductionist, that is one of the main reasons they are slurs but being reductionist is not sufficient to make it a slur. If I say that Europeans have a different view on the value and role of government and wealth in society, am I being reductionist? Obviously yes. Am I using a slur? No and I can say that not only because I am European (born and raised there and you can tell that English is not my native tongue) but because all Europeans refer to themselves as such (neutrally or with pride), though after referring to themselves by their ethnic/national attributes. Did orientals refer to themselves as such? Some (mostly from what we now call the far east -is that a slur nowadays? I truly don't know anymore) most certainly did, especially in comparison to, as I was told once, "you occidentals"; it wasn't meant as a slur to themselves or me just as an emphasis on difference, though it certainly was reductionist.

One central part of what makes a slur such is that its use is meant to be insulting, or dismissive, as well as reductionist (or at least perceived as such by those described by the use of such words)and the words you use as examples are exactly that. Over 50 years ago, I could have called a person from Korea or from Kyrgyzstan an oriental and it would have meant nothing more than that they were from East of Urals (or the Bosphorus), just as I am an occidental due to being born west of that mountain chain/strait (and the Turks are probably confused since, at various times, they have claimed to be both). The racist connotation to the word oriental happened not because it was ever considered insulting by those thus described but rather by "academic diktat". This turns the origin of the, nowadays assumed, racist connotations of the word into something very different than any of the slurs we rightfully reject.

So, nowadays, the word is considered racist in the US. Last I checked, it wasn't in Mexico, it was considered so in French, Italian and German academia but not by the general population (which, in France in particular, contains quite a lot of "orientals" -strangely enough some North Africans I've met have used it to describe themselves which says some confusing things about how some non-Europeans understand that word). I have no idea what the Chinese, Vietnamese, or Kyrgyz consider it to mean, if they think about it at all. As a result, I accept that in the US the change in meaning of the word has seeped to most of the population and thus would not call someone of Asian descent by that word; in other parts of the world, I will do as the locals do and with all the respect that is due to them.

In conclusion, it seems that you have assumed a lot about what I actually think and/or know about the subject. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I hope that I clarified a few things for you. :-)

[HopetonBrown]

Out of all the derogatory words to use for a race, I still don't understand how "Oriental" became the equivalent of words like zipper-head, slope, dune coon, nigger, etc. Unlike all of those words, Oriental has a legitimate, geographical, non-racial basis. It comes from the word for "East" in latin.



I dunno man. I may be a card carrying member, but don't sit on the board to make these decisions, and since I'm half, I don't have after hours access to the club or the keys to the executive washroom.

Jap has an equally innocuous background, simply being an abbreviation of Japanese, but that one bothers the shit out of me. Oriental, I don't really care.


The acceptable terms in the LGBTQ community and the black community change at a moment's notice and if one is unaware, woe be unto him or her...
Language and its usage appears to change at the speed of light and if you don't want anyone to look askance at you when you open your mouth, you'd better keep your scorecard up to date. :(

I just refer to people however they wish to be referred by. It's not that hard.


I generally don't care personally, since I agree with you and don't think it's used the same way or as loaded as the other terms you listed. I feel like when it's been directed at me the term was either used out of ignorance and out of ill intent (when coming from a stranger), or as a joke (when coming from a friend). I've never felt threatened by it, like others might feel with other labels.

The only time I hear it is from FOBs or old Asians.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I don't think that I'm adding much to the discussion here but I will say that I think that there's at least a theoretical argument to be made that the term "oriental" essentially is defining a group as "easterners" which I think could be argued to have inherent connotations of "otherness". As in, there's us, there's the westerners, and there's the easterners.

Whether you consider that to be worth getting bothered about or not is a separate issue imo, but I guess it might be worth referencing Plato's objection to the term "barbarian" (which basically means "outsider"): it tells you nothing about the people you're describing. By defining people solely in terms of their geographical relation to you, you miss out on the opportunity to ascribe meaningful characteristics to them and it's fundamentally reductionist as a result.

Again, whether that's worth worrying about is pretty much up to the individual.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

Neph, where things do get truly wonky is when a group decides that a term they previously chose for themselves and which they used to identify themselves as a group is no longer appropriate and somehow some clueless schmuck (who didn't get the memo) uses the term, (thinking it is respectful), and instead gets a sneer of derision rather than an acknowledgment of respect.

Now, I don't know who gets to legislate these changes and when and where they are adopted but I think it's fair to say that most of us are in the dark until we either see or hear of it on TV or step on our dicks accidentally with no malice aforethought.

Of course, and I couldn't agree more with you there. I think the general willingness to have a conversation in this country is at a sad all-time low. I do think that the conversation about race in particular is in a weird place in America these days and definitely agree that it's used in a way that is exceedingly divisive.



In conclusion, it seems that you have assumed a lot about what I actually think and/or know about the subject. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I hope that I clarified a few things for you. :-)

Thank you, that was an exceedingly polite and helpful reply. I will be totally honest, I was overcaffeinated, under-rested, and frankly unnecessarily confrontational. I sincerely apologize for that - regardless of my point that is no way to contribute productively to any conversation. Thanks for taking the time to see past that - your points are well made.

[blues]

I just refer to people however they wish to be referred by. It's not that hard.

Apparently it's at least as difficult as understanding the context of my original post...

How would you know until you know?

My point was that you'd have to know how they wish to be referred to, currently, and if you happen to be using even recent (respectful) language that is now rendered 'so two weeks ago', well then you run the risk of having eyes rolled, being perceived as some kind of knuckle dragger or worse. Don't believe it? I've seen it. Good intentions are no guarantee of good results.

I made it abundantly clear that I am not a "hater" in my prior posts. But I am also not someone that spends all day, every day trying to keep his lexicon of today's currently socially acceptable and trendy terms updated either. (And I don't go on Twitter or Facebook either so I guess I'm a hopeless case.)

[Peally]

I refer to people how I think is respectful and proper without falling off into snowflake world, and if they're offended they can go fuck a mongoose ;)

[Mntneer357]

I just think we need to accept that Islam and the West and not compatible.

Yes.

And STOP importing people who want to eliminate our way of life. Why is it folks leave their shit-hole of a country and then attempt to make the country they've arrived in JUST like where they came from? But yeah, stop bringing people into the country who don't agree with how our country is.

[blues]

I refer to people how I think is respectful and proper without falling off into snowflake world, and if they're offended they can go fuck a mongoose ;)

Thank you. Well said. :cool:

[blues]

Yes.

And STOP importing people who want to eliminate our way of life. Why is it folks leave their shit-hole of a country and then attempt to make the country they've arrived in JUST like where they came from? But yeah, stop bringing people into the country who don't agree with how our country is.

But if the food is good I can live with that. I love ethnic cuisine, at least much of the time. :cool:

Funny, when I was in London with my partner working an investigation...after a long night pub crawling with my Scotland Yard buddies I'd hit a halal market that was open late nearby the hotel I was staying at in Mayfair. If only the owner knew who and what I was. Then again, maybe he wasn't one to hate infidels. That would be refreshing and welcome. They always seemed friendly enough at the time.

[Wondering Beard]

Thank you, that was an exceedingly polite and helpful reply. I will be totally honest, I was overcaffeinated, under-rested, and frankly unnecessarily confrontational. I sincerely apologize for that - regardless of my point that is no way to contribute productively to any conversation. Thanks for taking the time to see past that - your points are well made.

No problem, Neph, and no apology necessary. :-)

[OlongJohnson]

In for the renewed calls for banning pointy knives.

[HopetonBrown]

My point was that you'd have to know how they wish to be referred to, currently, and if you happen to be using even recent (respectful) language that is now rendered 'so two weeks ago', well then you run the risk of having eyes rolled, being perceived as some kind of knuckle dragger or worse. Don't believe it? I've seen it. Good intentions are no guarantee of good results.



I've lived in San Francisco for over two decades, so I've probably had more daily interactions with the groups you might be referring to than the average American, and it hasn't been the minefield some make it out to be.

[blues]

I've lived in San Francisco for over two decades, so I've probably had more daily interactions with the groups you might be referring to than the average American, and it hasn't been the minefield some make it out to be.

I lived there in 1976 and I came to the conclusion that it was the best city in America for a straight man to live in.

I also thought the bank I had my funds in must've lost my money because the teller said "good morning" a bit too brightly to me. No foolin', that didn't happen in NY.

And last funny anecdote, I took my wife to see the apartment in a brownstone I rented at 824 Hyde St. back then, (since burned down), and while walking hand in hand in my old neighborhood a funny man, (not ha-ha, well yes, ha-ha but also gay), calls out "You'd better hold his hand, honey!".
We about fell over laughing. I turned to my wife and said "I still got it".

I've had lots of gay friends over the years, (beginning in my teens), so there's no need for us to argue about this further. I was just trying to make a point about how the language changes and the road bumps that one sometimes encounters as a result. No biggie. You can buy me an Irish coffee at the Buena Vista (if it's still there). :cool:

[Totem Polar]

Typical wonky lefty silliness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism)

^^^the main takeaway I got from that wikilink: The Brit media's usage of "Oriental" to describe Drivey McStabby is pretty much just a quaint liguistic remainder from the glory days of the Empire, sort of like "Boot" to describe the trunk of a Lincoln Town Car, or something. No, it's not a "boot" you goofballs: a boot is something we put in someone's ass to motivate them; you put your shit ("kit" in colonial speak) in a trunk, mobile or not.


I don't know, just do something...aka make an effort.

In no way do I disagree with anything you said. I'll just point out/add on top that lots of good people are doing lots of "something" as is—hands free or tied, regardless—otherwise we'd be immersed in this stuff like parts of some lovely countries that don't put as much priority in seeing security boot on extremist ass as us. What's scary is not how much similar action we are starting to see here, it's how much attempted action we *never* see, because: dedicated people with boots.