Rockville, MD high school Rape...

[BaiHu]

I know some of you live in the area. I just know what I see/hear on the news.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/20/maryland-girl-allegedly-raped-in-high-school-bathroom-by-two-teens-at-least-one-here-illegally.html

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[GuanoLoco]

I left that shithole area 20 years ago and nver looked back.

[voodoo_man]

Send them back to their respective countries, in a pine box, thrown from an airplane at 20,000ft closely followed by several large bombs.

[Jay Cunningham]

Send them back to their respective countries, in a pine box, thrown from an airplane at 20,000ft closely followed by several large bombs.

Agree.

[Bigghoss]

Send them back to their respective countries, in a pine box, thrown from an airplane at 20,000ft closely followed by several large bombs.

After doing 20 years in a federal pen, gen pop, getting the same treatment they gave her.

[trailrunner]

Rockville is in Montgomery County, a liberal county in a liberal state.

I live about 20 miles south of there. We are having our own problems with central-American gangs. This happened about five miles from my house:

http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/03/police-find-human-remains-fairfax-park-search/

[jc000]

Who should be punished are the individuals who unilaterally decided we needed this cultural enhancement.

[Peally]

Speaking from experience I can almost guarantee someone at the school knew of the illegal status and simply looked the other way.

Minors my ass, put a bullet in them and dump the bodies back over the border. Quick and cheap.

[Crash41984]

Charge the school officials with harboring illegal aliens, and stop giving them federal dollars. Just a thought.

[ASH556]

I may get some heat from this, but I feel compelled to share it:

I am in full support of enforcing our nation's laws. You want to emigrate here? Awesome! Fill out your paperwork, wait your turn, and then join the culture you wanted so badly to join. You want to break our laws, you have earned punishment, deportation, etc.

That said, I'm seeing this thread spin right into the political bs that, in this case, Fox news wanted the story to when they titled it like that. For every illegal immigrant that comes here to cause harm, there are probably 10 that are truly here to find the best opportunity for their family that they can. I speak out of experience living in Georgia with a high hispanic emigrant population in the poultry industry and construction industry (I grew up on a lumberyard). Furthermore, my wife taught 3rd grade in a Title 1 90% hispanic elementary school in the Gainesville, GA area. At the end of the day, these are people. There are evil people and there are good people.

My point is turning a rape case into an immigration case is political spin bs. Based on my experience, an illegal immigrant is no more or less likely to commit rape than a legal immigrant or than a natural-born citizen. Rape is an act out of an evil mind, plain and simple.

[Peally]

I see your point, and on the flip side I also couldn't care less about bad press on illegals.

[jc000]

No heat, but you know what? All of us want the best opportunities for our families as well. That becomes more difficult when we compete for diminishing resources with people who had been brought here artificially, without our consent, and with no real plan or mechanism for integration.

Sure, the politics around this is pretty in your face but illegal immigration should have been stopped over 30 years ago, so I really don't care.

[Mntneer357]

I may get some heat from this, but I feel compelled to share it:

I am in full support of enforcing our nation's laws. You want to emigrate here? Awesome! Fill out your paperwork, wait your turn, and then join the culture you wanted so badly to join. You want to break our laws, you have earned punishment, deportation, etc.

That said, I'm seeing this thread spin right into the political bs that, in this case, Fox news wanted the story to when they titled it like that. For every illegal immigrant that comes here to cause harm, there are probably 10 that are truly here to find the best opportunity for their family that they can. I speak out of experience living in Georgia with a high hispanic emigrant population in the poultry industry and construction industry (I grew up on a lumberyard). Furthermore, my wife taught 3rd grade in a Title 1 90% hispanic elementary school in the Gainesville, GA area. At the end of the day, these are people. There are evil people and there are good people.

My point is turning a rape case into an immigration case is political spin bs. Based on my experience, an illegal immigrant is no more or less likely to commit rape than a legal immigrant or than a natural-born citizen. Rape is an act out of an evil mind, plain and simple.

I applaud you for speaking your mind. I agree with the first paragraph of what you said.

But, I will not support *ANY* form of illegal immigration. By coming here illegally, these folks are showing us they want to break our laws and thus deserve punishment and deportation. If we "allow" this illegal behavior (or choose to look the other way), where does a line get drawn on illegal behavior?

I also speak from experience, living in South Carolina. My mom used to work for the Dept of Health and Environmental Control. When I was told State Home Health Nurses are not allowed to verify citizenship f the patients they see, I thought I was going to come out of my skin. Teachers deal with this problem every day, but shouldn't have to. Teachers who have illegals in their classes should be required to report it or face legal ramifications.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and ASH556 I hope I didn't offend you in any way, sir. I happen to believe the only way to solve this problem is to see it for what it is and put real, fearsome teeth behind breaking our laws.

[NETim]

Are we a nation of laws or not?

[Mntneer357]

Are we a nation of laws or not?

That would seem to be the root question indeed. I hope we are.

Re: the two illegals raping this girl - Peally had it right. "Put a bullet in them and dump the bodies back over the border."

[rob_s]

For every illegal immigrant that comes here to cause harm, there are probably 10 that are truly here to find the best opportunity for their family that they can.

I don't care.

What is your acceptable number of rapes to allow in order to get the 10 good illegals? how about murders? Or robberies?

Mine is zero.

[XXXsilverXXX]

That would seem to be the root question indeed. I hope we are.

Re: the two illegals raping this girl - Peally had it right. "Put a bullet in them and dump the bodies back over the border."

Am I to cruel to suggest we utilize the organs so we can at least use them to save others lives?

[ASH556]

I don't care.

What is your acceptable number of rapes to allow in order to get the 10 good illegals? how about murders? Or robberies?

Mine is zero.

What about US citizens who commit rapes? Is your number zero there too? This is a dangerous train of thought. If we change the input variables, but follow the same logic, this becomes exactly the gun control argument:

"What is your acceptable number of guns on the street to allow in order to get the 10 good gun owners? Mine is zero."

We've got to be more intelligent than that. You and I probably agree that gun ownership or availability has zero to do with whether an evil person will choose to shoot up a school. Likewise, a person's citizenship/residency status has nothing to do with whether an evil person will choose to rape a 14 year old girl.

Let me be perfectly clear about what I am saying: I oppose illegal immigration and am in favor of strict border controls, vetting, and deportation. However, to somehow make this rape case about illegal immigration is ridiculous. You might as well ban white broncos because history has "proven" they are more likely than any other color to cause highway chases.

[blues]

ASH is neither justifying illegals nor rape...


I am in full support of enforcing our nation's laws. You want to emigrate here? Awesome! Fill out your paperwork, wait your turn, and then join the culture you wanted so badly to join. You want to break our laws, you have earned punishment, deportation, etc.

He is merely saying, (in my opinion), that the two are being conflated and that the two issues are separate and distinct since there is no propensity to rape among the illegal community that exceeds that of the general population.

If he is advocating for illegal immigration I must have missed it.

ETA: I was typing my reply while ASH was composing his reply immediately above. My apologies if my post is rendered redundant.

[rob_s]

What about US citizens who commit rapes? Is your number zero there too? This is a dangerous train of thought. If we change the input variables, but follow the same logic, this becomes exactly the gun control argument:

"What is your acceptable number of guns on the street to allow in order to get the 10 good gun owners? Mine is zero."

We've got to be more intelligent than that. You and I probably agree that gun ownership or availability has zero to do with whether an evil person will choose to shoot up a school. Likewise, a person's citizenship/residency status has nothing to do with whether an evil person will choose to rape a 14 year old girl.

Let me be perfectly clear about what I am saying: I oppose illegal immigration and am in favor of strict border controls, vetting, and deportation. However, to somehow make this rape case about illegal immigration is ridiculous. You might as well ban white broncos because history has "proven" they are more likely than any other color to cause highway chases.

No, actually, we don't 'have to be more intelligent than that'.

Asked another way...

If I told you that 1 in ten martians would rape your wife if let into your home, what is the number you feel comfortable allowing in? Clearly, if we let in 10 your wife is guaranteed to get raped. If we let in 8, she stands a chance. Let in 2, even less of a chance. You know how many you let to guarantee your wife doesn't get raped by martians? 0. That's how many.

Don't over-complicate the issue with the liberal, feel good, "most just want a better life", bullshit. They start out from the get go acting in bad faith, ignoring the laws of the country they so badly want to enter. By definition, they are "illegal" right out of the gate (or, over the wall, since they don't want to go through the gate).

you know what you do if you truly want to make a better life? you unfuck your country, you don't bring your problems here.

[ASH556]

ASH is neither justifying illegals nor rape...



He is merely saying, (in my opinion), that the two are being conflated and that the two issues are separate and distinct since there is no propensity to rape among the illegal community that exceeds that of the general population.

If he is advocating for illegal immigration I must have missed it.

ETA: I was typing my reply while ASH was composing his reply immediately above. My apologies if my post is rendered redundant.

You're reading me right on, thanks!

[ASH556]

No, actually, we don't 'have to be more intelligent than that'.

Asked another way...

If I told you that 1 in ten martians would rape your wife if let into your home, what is the number you feel comfortable allowing in? Clearly, if we let in 10 your wife is guaranteed to get raped. If we let in 8, she stands a chance. Let in 2, even less of a chance. You know how many you let to guarantee your wife doesn't get raped by martians? 0. That's how many.

Don't over-complicate the issue with the liberal, feel good, "most just want a better life", bullshit. They start out from the get go acting in bad faith, ignoring the laws of the country they so badly want to enter. By definition, they are "illegal" right out of the gate (or, over the wall, since they don't want to go through the gate).

you know what you do if you truly want to make a better life? you unfuck your country, you don't bring your problems here.

If your wife leaves the house, she also stands that same 1:10 chance of being raped by legal citizens of this country. Should you therefore keep her locked up?

I agree with you 100% about illegal immigration. (Pretty sure I've already said that, twice). Trying to correlate rape and illegal immigration is a farce. The illegal immigrant is no more or less likely to rape your wife than a legal immigrant, or a citizen.

[LockedBreech]

I have worked a good number of sex assaults, and all but one I recall were U.S. citizens. Ted Bundy was a U.S. citizen.

This story being so trending/popular is clearly just political rage theater. All rapists deserve to be wrecked by the justice system, and this one is heinous, but the fact that one was illegally present in the country is a purely separate issue.


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[Robinson]

"Are we a nation of laws or not?" is definitely central to the discussion and it cuts both ways.

On one hand, illegal aliens have already broken our laws and should be treated according to those laws. The fact that they are here illegally also says a great deal about their intentions. Yes, they may be here out of a genuine desire to better provide for themselves and their families. Maybe. But it also says they have no respect for US sovereignty and based on what I've seen, read, and heard illegals generally don't care to become assimilated into American culture and its values. They are more likely to become part of a subculture that reflects their home environment. I have a big problem with that just on principle, and it is contrary to legal immigration policy and thought.

On the other hand, most of the US Constitution does not make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens. Current legal thinking seems to sway toward extending Constitutional protections, including due process, to non-citizens and therefore illegal aliens. Based on that legal thinking, calls to put a bullet in illegals who have committed violent crimes and throwing them back across the border are absurd and I assume are hyperbolic anyway. If the government were to decide it can suspend a Constitutional protection such as due process it would be disturbing.

Criminal illegal aliens should be prosecuted and punished or deported according to our already existing laws. If our existing laws are not strong enough to protect citizens from illegals and provide the means for prosecution and/or deportation then the laws need to be strengthened. I'm sick of the cry from the Left to treat illegal aliens equal to or in some cases even better than American citizens and it needs to stop.

[rob_s]

If your wife leaves the house, she also stands that same 1:10 chance of being raped by legal citizens of this country. Should you therefore keep her locked up?
Is that true? Can you cite your source that says that she's just as likely to get raped by a domestic as an illegal?



Trying to correlate rape and illegal immigration is a farce. The illegal immigrant is no more or less likely to rape your wife than a legal immigrant, or a citizen.

Even if it's true, for every ten illegals you let in you let in one more rapist. I'd say we're pretty full up on rapists already. Hell, you're telling me one in ten men is a rapist already. It's not about percentage of potential rapists, it's about absolute numbers.

The reason people point out and share articles like this is to refute the liberal claim that "all the illegals want is a happy life". While that may be true for some, as far as I'm concerned if even one is a potential rapist that I'm going to err on the side of rounding all of them up.

[ASH556]

Rob, I'm not a passive person, so instead of you or anyone else thinking I couldn't deal with it and just dropped out or whatever, I'll just leave it at this:

I've stated my position. Here it is one last time: Rape and Illegal Immigration are both illegal. Being an illegal immigrant does not make you any more likely to rape someone that being a natural-born citizen. In fact, a LEGAL immigrant is just as likely or unlikely (there's no way to quantify any correlation) to rape someone as an ILLEGAL immigrant. Rape sucks! It's wrong and it devastates lives. It also has nothing to do with a person's citizenship status.

Clearly you take some issue with my perspective, but I suspect I'm not going to shift your position and you're not going to shift mine. Feel free to have the last word, but I'm done responding to you directly on this issue. Have a nice day.

[TAZ]

I may get some heat from this, but I feel compelled to share it:

I am in full support of enforcing our nation's laws. You want to emigrate here? Awesome! Fill out your paperwork, wait your turn, and then join the culture you wanted so badly to join. You want to break our laws, you have earned punishment, deportation, etc.

That said, I'm seeing this thread spin right into the political bs that, in this case, Fox news wanted the story to when they titled it like that. For every illegal immigrant that comes here to cause harm, there are probably 10 that are truly here to find the best opportunity for their family that they can. I speak out of experience living in Georgia with a high hispanic emigrant population in the poultry industry and construction industry (I grew up on a lumberyard). Furthermore, my wife taught 3rd grade in a Title 1 90% hispanic elementary school in the Gainesville, GA area. At the end of the day, these are people. There are evil people and there are good people.

My point is turning a rape case into an immigration case is political spin bs. Based on my experience, an illegal immigrant is no more or less likely to commit rape than a legal immigrant or than a natural-born citizen. Rape is an act out of an evil mind, plain and simple.

Speaking as a legal immigrant and naturalized citizen I agree with the whole fill out your paperwork, show that you're not a threat (medical, legal...) and do your time as a law abiding permanent resident and assimilate into US culture to gain Citizenship. I would also be in favor of figuring out a way to streamline the hard workers into the country as we do need hardworking decent folks

The rest of your post I'm not quite sure of. I understand that they are people looking to better themselves and their families. Not a soul is suggesting that we line them up and shoot them on sight. Yes people want to rightfully eliminate rapists from our schools, but I bet the feeling is the same for citizen child rapists. The rest of the illegals we want simply deported. To me the second half of your post sounds like some form or rationalization of criminal activity. Where do you draw the line. Are you ok with a complete stranger, without any permission, hopping over your fence and using your water, TV, eating the food from your fridge? If not then why are you excusing someone doing the same to your country? I mean the guy eating your steak didn't take your wife so we are all good right? Or are you going to expect the cops to arrest him and charge him with breaking and entering?? He is a criminal after all right??

What people always conveniently forget or just plane ignore is that 100% of all illegal aliens are criminals. The level of crime they have committed isn't rape or murder or drug dealing, but they are still criminals. They still take things they aren't entitled to. Like tax funded schooling. Tax funded hand outs. Tax funded medical care...

Take the example of the guy in your home. He illegally entered and took a nap. Are you going to let that pass? Say he illegally enters and eats your steaks. Are you going to let that pass? Say he illegally enters and hocks your TV on Craigslist. You ok with that? Are you only going to call the cops after he rapes your wife? I doubt it.

Criminals have proven a complete disregard for laws. Why do we have to give them a pass until they hurt someone?? Why not punish them immediately and get the idea across that following the law is a good idea.

[blues]

Clearly reading comprehension is not mandatory hereabouts. Whether willful or unintentional it's still somewhat disappointing.

ASH:

Against illegal immigration.

ASH;

Against rape.

ASH:

Does not believe that there is a direct correlation between being here illegally and a propensity to commit rape.

ASH:

Believes that both those who have entered the U.S. illegally and those who commit rape, (whether legal residents, citizens or illegals), should face the legal and appropriate consequences of their actions via our judicial system.

Here endeth the sermon.

[NEPAKevin]

Minors my ass, put a bullet in them and dump the bodies back over the border. Quick and cheap.

Or they could be deported via the nearest border which would be international waters off the MD coast. Wouldn't even need a bullet.

Remain calm, all is well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX0lnBGQ1W8

[Duces Tecum]

. . . there is no propensity to rape among the illegal community that exceeds that of the general population.

Thing is, illegal immigrants are not part of the general population. We are stuck with that population. Illegal immigrants are an imposed population and they are optional. Our laws make them so. Thus crimes committed by illegal immigrants are, on our part, voluntary accepted.

That last bit is what troubles me.

[blues]

Thing is, illegal immigrants are not part of the general population. We are stuck with that population. Illegal immigrants are an imposed population and they are optional. Our laws make them so. Thus crimes committed by illegal immigrants are, on our part, voluntary accepted.

That last bit is what troubles me.

I don't think anyone here is advocating for amnesty...nor for sanctuary cities.

[Duces Tecum]

I don't think anyone here is advocating for amnesty...nor for sanctuary cities.

Gosh, that wasn't my intent. My observation was that accepting an overlay of illegal immigrants and whatever crimes are associated with their presence is optional to a sovereign country, and thus measuring "legal" crimes against "illegal" is a false comparison. It doesn't make any difference if their crime rate is the same as ours: if they weren't here, there would be committing no crimes on our soil at all.

[blues]

Gosh, that wasn't my intent. My observation was that accepting an overlay of illegal immigrants and whatever crimes are associated with their presence is optional to a sovereign country, and thus measuring "legal" crimes against "illegal" is a false comparison. It doesn't make any difference if their crime rate is the same as ours: if they weren't here, there would be committing no crimes on our soil at all.

Understood. We are in accord.

Now, if you'd be so kind as to issue the relevant subpoena duces tecum we can get on with it...;) (Well, actually, I guess we won't need 'em in many of the instances discussed.)

[kilo sierra]

Just my $.02...

Regardless of citizenship, this was an unacceptable atrocity. Committed in a predatory manner.

I do not care where you were born or how you got here or who your mommy and daddy are. It will not be tolerated in any way.

Get a rope...

ks

[jc000]

Being an illegal immigrant does not make you any more likely to rape someone that being a natural-born citizen. In fact, a LEGAL immigrant is just as likely or unlikely (there's no way to quantify any correlation) to rape someone as an ILLEGAL immigrant. Rape sucks! It's wrong and it devastates lives. It also has nothing to do with a person's citizenship status.

I don't fully agree with this. Sorry.

[BigT]

Rob, I'm not a passive person, so instead of you or anyone else thinking I couldn't deal with it and just dropped out or whatever, I'll just leave it at this:

I've stated my position. Here it is one last time: Rape and Illegal Immigration are both illegal. Being an illegal immigrant does not make you any more likely to rape someone that being a natural-born citizen. In fact, a LEGAL immigrant is just as likely or unlikely (there's no way to quantify any correlation) to rape someone as an ILLEGAL immigrant. Rape sucks! It's wrong and it devastates lives. It also has nothing to do with a person's citizenship status.

Clearly you take some issue with my perspective, but I suspect I'm not going to shift your position and you're not going to shift mine. Feel free to have the last word, but I'm done responding to you directly on this issue. Have a nice day.


An an illegal immigrant has already shown a lack of respect for the law and is already guilty of a crime . A legal immigrant has jumped though all manner of hoops and had all manner of checks performed and pretty cannot have committed any crimes . So no methinks the chances are not the same.

[LockedBreech]

I don't fully agree with this. Sorry.

Your (polite, civil) post made me research this a bit, and while I can't conclusively say anything about it, I think this site was a helpful point-counterpoint to that argument.

http://immigration.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000782

[GuanoLoco]

Would it be fair to say that a large number of criminally inclined illegal immigrants would not have made it through the legal immigration process?

[ssb]

Would it be fair to say that a large number of criminally inclined illegal immigrants would not have made it through the legal immigration process?

That depends largely on where they're from (record keeping) and whether they got caught in their home country. Thus the concern with the Syrian refugees, to pour even more hot button-ness into this discussion.

But, in a perfect world, yes: we'd be able to screen for criminal behavior/tendencies prior to entry, and with many countries, we're able to do that.

[blues]

Would it be fair to say that a large number of criminally inclined illegal immigrants would not have made it through the legal immigration process?

Not unless you can intuit that they are inclined toward criminal activity. Judging by how well the polygraph program seems to be going for Homeland Security employment background checks, I'd say the crystal ball has been unplugged.

Seriously, absent evidence of criminal activity or association how do you propose to surmise someone's future intent?

If you want to create rules saying that no one gets to immigrate unless they have schooling, a profession, or means...that would be different.

[ssb]

]An an illegal immigrant has already shown a lack of respect for the law and is already guilty of a crime . A[/B] legal immigrant has jumped though all manner of hoops and had all manner of checks performed and pretty cannot have committed any crimes . So no methinks the chances are not the same.

The mental state of "I want to walk across the US-Mexico border" is pretty far removed from "I want to forcibly rape a teenage girl in a high school bathroom stall."

[HCM]

Not unless you can intuit that they are inclined toward criminal activity. Judging by how well the polygraph program seems to be going for Homeland Security employment background checks, I'd say the crystal ball has been unplugged.

Seriously, absent evidence of criminal activity or association how do you propose to surmise someone's future intent?

If you want to create rules saying that no one gets to immigrate unless they have schooling, a profession, or means...that would be different.

CBP's polygraph issues are about incompetence and misuse on the part of CBP and their contractors- it has no part in this discussion.

[trailrunner]

He is merely saying, (in my opinion), that the two are being conflated and that the two issues are separate and distinct since there is no propensity to rape among the illegal community that exceeds that of the general population.


As soon as the story broke last week in the local news websites, I told my wife that Fox News would pick up on this story and put in on their front page.

Having said that, I think a little conflation is justified. There may not be a propensity to rape among the illegal community, but there is a link to central American gang activity in some of the local high schools.

In post #6 of this thread I posted a link to a story in my county (Fairfax), which is more or less adjacent (although across state lines) to the county (Montgomery) where the Rockville rape case happened. The link I posted was actually 10 miles from my house (and on my bike commute route), not 5 miles, as I thought. Why the confusion? Because there was another story of a body found in a park a couple of weeks previously:

http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/02/body-found-fairfax-co-ided/

That one was 4 miles from my house (and also on my bike commute route -- maybe I better change my route? Or explain where I was on those nights?).

So in the three months so far this year, that's one rape (by two guys, which might count as two rapes) and three murders. This isn't just a sudden rash of gang retaliation -- I remember similar cases off and on going back to the 1990s when I first moved to the area. The common thread to these stories is the victims were in or just out of high school, and central American gang activity. If a link between MS-13 and illegal immigrants is plausible, then that might justify a bit of conflation. For once, I could argue that Fox under reported the story.

[blues]

CBP's polygraph issues are about incompetence and misuse on the part of CBP and their contractors- it has no part in this discussion.

The point being that there is no way to know. There is no crystal ball. Even when it comes to hiring those who serve our country there is no guarantee of getting the vetting right. It was not a shot at Homeland Security or any other agency. The reference is purely parenthetical / incidental.

[trailrunner]

The mental state of "I want to walk across the US-Mexico border" is pretty far removed from "I want to forcibly rape a teenage girl in a high school bathroom stall."

An 18 year old who managed to make it from central America to our border, crossed the border, got apprehended, beat the system, and then made his way to Maryland, should not be in high school as a freshman.

[ssb]

An 18 year old who managed to make it from central America to our border, crossed the border, got apprehended, beat the system, and then made his way to Maryland, should not be in high school as a freshman.

That bears little relevance to my post or the one I was responding to, but ok.

[Vinh]

Children of illegals will do what they do. No one can fault them for behaving exactly as modeled by their parents.

It is disappointing that the officers failed to ND into the (habitual) offenders.

[GuanoLoco]

Something else to consider was that this was just the last straw.

What else do you think these guys have been doing since their arrival? My bet would be terrorizing everyone and everything in their path.

[hufnagel]

Are we a nation of laws or not?

We are supposedly, until we are not. The day the latter is affirmed, I fear what becomes of this country, and in turn what I'll have to become. Neither will be pretty, as I long ago decided I will not allow Liberty to go down without a fight.

[HCM]

I've stated my position. Here it is one last time: Rape and Illegal Immigration are both illegal. Being an illegal immigrant does not make you any more likely to rape someone that being a natural-born citizen. In fact, a LEGAL immigrant is just as likely or unlikely (there's no way to quantify any correlation) to rape someone as an ILLEGAL immigrant. Rape sucks! It's wrong and it devastates lives. It also has nothing to do with a person's citizenship status..

Having dealt with both Immigration and Sex offenders for a living :

Aliens, legal or illegal, as a population, are a bell curve like everyone else, some good, some bad.

That said, Illegal aliens have a higher crime and incarceration rate than the general population in the U.S..

This makes sense given the illegal alien population contains a higher percentage of young single males than the general population. Young single males being prone to trouble, regardless of their origin, is not exactly a revelation. As Kipling said "single men in barracks are not plaster saints".

In my experience, cultural factors are of greater relevance to the propensity towards sex offenses by aliens, legal or illegal than their immigration status. Once again, in my own experience, certain nationalities or in some cases, certain ethnic groups within nationalities, are disproportionally represented among rapists and child molesters.

This is both an immigration case and a rape case because this suspect should have never had the opportunity to commit the latter crime. The U.S. is a sovereign nation with just as much right to decide who enters and remains here as an individual has to decide who enters and remains in their residence. The fact one of the suspects in this crime was apprehended by the U.S. Border Patrol for a prior offense and was subsequently at large in the United States under the Obama administration's "catch and release" policies when he should have been detained or back in his own country is a significant problem.

[HCM]

The point being that there is no way to know. There is no crystal ball. Even when it comes to hiring those who serve our country there is no guarantee of getting the vetting right. It was not a shot at Homeland Security or any other agency. The reference is purely parenthetical / incidental.

The point is you're asking the wrong question. We don't need to "know" which illegal aliens are "good" or "bad" because we have a legal immingration system to do that, one which admits hundreds of thousands of people to the U.S. Legally every year. The illegals simply should not be here. There is no vetting of illegal aliens. In fact they "reverse vet" themselves - by succeeding in committing the criminal offense of illegal entry.

[JAD]

We are indeed a nation of laws, and we are also a nation of proportionality and occasional mercy and justice.

On the day, let it come, that abortion is once again recognized as murder in this country, it would be unjust if mothers were prosecuted for that crime, rather than providers.

By the same token, if to be deported solely for status means to deprive naturalized dependents of livelihood, it is unjust and disproportionate. If to be deported solely for status means to be killed, whether by starvation or genocide, in the country of repatriation, then it is unjust and disproportionate.

Being just and proportionate in administering immigration law requires neither amnesty nor sanctuary, just prudent and measured enforcement.

If that isn't sufficiently pragmatic for you, keep in mind that the agencies we ask to help us deport people do not have a bunch of free time on their hands, and are otherwise useful in actually securing the borders so that this problem could be dealt with at the causal level.

[HCM]

Children of illegals will do what they do. No one can fault them for behaving exactly as modeled by their parents.

It is disappointing that the officers failed to ND into the (habitual) offenders.

Regarding your first sentence, I agree. It has been my experience illegals tend to encourage an atmosphere of illegality, similar to the broken windows theory which posits disorder and incivility within a community contribute to higher rates of serious crime.

Regarding your second point. "Hate discipline" is a thing when working sex crimes.

[blues]

The point is you're asking the wrong question. We don't need to "know" which illegal aliens are "good" or "bad" they simply should not be here. There is no vetting of illegal aliens. In fact they "reverse vet" themselves - by succeeding in committing the criminal offense of illegal entry.

H, we're talking past each other. GL was asking if it was fair to make certain assumptions about whether ("criminally inclined") folks who are here illegally would have made it through the process of legal immigration. I was trying to emphasize that there is no way of being certain about someone's inclination or future acts in the absence of evidence. Short of making immigration conditional on certain clearly verifiable qualifications it's a crap shoot. It remains a crap shoot even if the person admitted wasn't a criminal to begin with as anyone can turn to illegal acts at any juncture.

Sorry you seem to be taking offense at my attempt to answer his question with the example i employed. It certainly was not intended to accomplish that end.

[BigT]

The mental state of "I want to walk across the US-Mexico border" is pretty far removed from "I want to forcibly rape a teenage girl in a high school bathroom stall."

This is true. Nonetheless the mental state of "I shall flat out ignore the immigration laws of a country" mean that your probably more likely to ignore other rules than someone who has gone through the not insignificant task of legally emigrating to the United States. So I stand by my assertion that illegal immigrants pose a greater chance of committing crimes than legal ones.

[Hambo]

I know this has been discussed, but immigration is one issue, public group sex and gang rape are another. Last year in Ft. Myers there was an incident of consensual sex between one 15yo girl and 25 boys. This week in Chicago gang rape hit a new low by being streamed live: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gang-sex-assault-chicago-teen-was-watched-live-40-people-n736616 That might be a form of conflation, but both are crimes and these stories seem to be on the rise.

All of these incidents, regardless of participants and perpetrators, just make me say WTF?

[rob_s]

By the same token, if to be deported solely for status means to deprive naturalized dependents of livelihood, it is unjust and disproportionate.

so as long as you can get your ass here and have a kid, you and your kid get to stay because:unjust?

[ssb]

This is true. Nonetheless the mental state of "I shall flat out ignore the immigration laws of a country" mean that your probably more likely to ignore other rules than someone who has gone through the not insignificant task of legally emigrating to the United States. So I stand by my assertion that illegal immigrants pose a greater chance of committing crimes than legal ones.

If we were talking things like identity theft, I think you'd have more of a point. At least with that, there's a pretty direct connection between the initial crime and the follow-up crime.

Forcible rape -- or really, any crime against the person -- is in an entirely different ball park. It requires a willingness to knowingly harm another for bad purposes. Using immigration status alone as a predictor for that seems to have a tenuous connection. One crime requires you to have a mindset totally unacceptable in civil society. The other crime is committed by all sorts of people, including a large majority with no bad intent or motivation apart from a willingness to ignore a minor misdemeanor in order to better their lives.

[JAD]

so as long as you can get your ass here and have a kid, you and your kid get to stay because:unjust?

Maybe, it would depend. The doctrine of competing harms would apply. Fourteenth amendment says we can't deport the jus solis, and we know that it's harmful to a child to be placed in foster or state care. Is it more or less harmful than the harm caused by a person being in the US illegally? It depends, is the kid over 18? Send daddy home. Is the kid a 25 year old with Downs? Daddy stays, and you're a DICK if you say otherwise.

[BobLoblaw]

Once this bubble bursts, many may leave on their own. Though, I'd like to see Trump set an example for his constituents in following the law to a tee by deporting them in the midst of tears and protests. Healthcare and national debt say an illegal, unskilled non-workforce is also not worth the additional stress. Regardless of the situation they've created for themselves since they snuck into the US, stowaways should be sent home. Giving them qualifiers for federal squatters' rights is a dumb way to legitimize an economically harmful and illegal activity. Give them a month or so to gather their shit to survive the migration and if need be, request transportation to the border or port or wherever. Once the grace period is over, so is the grace.

[rob_s]

Maybe, it would depend. The doctrine of competing harms would apply. Fourteenth amendment says we can't deport the jus solis, and we know that it's harmful to a child to be placed in foster or state care. Is it more or less harmful than the harm caused by a person being in the US illegally? It depends, is the kid over 18? Send daddy home. Is the kid a 25 year old with Downs? Daddy stays, and you're a DICK if you say otherwise.

Everyone should be willing to be a dick when it comes to this topic. Touchy-feely isn't going to solve the problem. It's the unwillingness to be a dick that leads to a girl getting raped in a high school bathroom by two illegals and a bunch of ninnies on the internet pretending that illegal immigration has nothing to do with her getting raped.

[LockedBreech]

Everyone should be willing to be a dick when it comes to this topic. Touchy-feely isn't going to solve the problem. It's the unwillingness to be a dick that leads to a girl getting raped in a high school bathroom by two illegals and a bunch of ninnies on the internet pretending that illegal immigration has nothing to do with her getting raped.

I've never had an issue with you at all, rob, I still don't, I dig vigorous debate and I admire a firm stand on an issue, but calling people who disagree with the supposition that illegal immigration is somehow linked to a rape (a supposition with, so far, very little supporting evidence) "ninnies" isn't a great sign for the opposing argument, as ad hominems typically come into play when logical argumentation has unfillable gaps. What about the kid who was a citizen who participated in the rape? Are we just forgetting him?

As a general reply to the continuing topic of discussion, it seems that individual instances of crime by illegal immigrants or areas that see a surge in illegal immigrant-committed crime leads to the drawing of conclusions like one-shot stops with .45 Auto. As individual examples, a person getting flat-out dropped with a .45 Auto is a convincing sample of one (I reviewed one for the county once, and I won't deny the Sig 220 took over nightstand duties for a while until I did some more research and shooting and brought back my Glock 19). However, when you review actual data over the long-term and over large samples, .45 Auto is not significantly more effective than 9mm or .40 S&W. Similarly, actual evidence and data indicate that crime bumps by immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are isolated events and not part of a trend or casual relationship, regardless of how horrifying individual crimes can be and how much they tend to muddy the waters of rational thought.

I'm not a fan of amnesty cities, illegal immigration, or law breaking. I have no problem with someone being deported if they aren't here legally. I have a problem with the supposition that illegal immigrants are inherently more likely to be lawbreakers in other ways, simply because I have never seen evidence to support that point aside from individual instances and barroom conversation. Most illegal immigrants come in for the very mundane purpose of making more money. It's illegal and deportation proceedings need to be more stringent and consistent, but conclusions without evidence should simply not be asserted as fact.

[RoyGBiv]

If that specific illegal alien wasn't in this country, that girl would not have been raped. If Juan Francisco Lopez-Sanchez was in jail instead of hiding in plain sight in sanctuary SFO, Kate Steinle would still be alive. Trying to equivocate that "illegals are just as likely as anyone else to commit crimes" is no consolation (trying to be polite here). These two (and how many thousand others?) crimes were preventable at the border (and elsewhere). Close your eyes and imagine the victim was one of YOUR loved ones. Killed/worse by a person that never should have been in the country. Willing to ban immigrants from Syria? But, only a handful of them will be terrorists... /sarc

We can debate ad infinitum what to do about illegal immigration in the broader sense, but Kate is dead and a 14 yo girl traumatized and neither of the perpetrators should have been in the country.

Here's a general rule for firefighters and other S&R folks that I'll tweak a bit to fit this discussion...
"If you don't keep yourself safe first, all those people you could be helping would never get your help."
Well, we are harming ourselves in many ways by failing to stem the flow of illegals.
-- Crime
-- Burden on social services
-- Cost associated with social services, healthcare, policing, courts, etc.
-- Jobs lost/ depressed wages

[Default.mp3]

I would like to point out that illegally immigrating to the USA is mostly a case of malum prohibitum, while rape is almost universally considered malum in se. Thus, the argument that committing illegal immigration already shows that a person holds the law in lower regard holds little water for me; otherwise, those of us inclined to speed on public roadways could be construed as being more likely to commit sexual assault.

[walker2713]

The illegal immigrant is no more or less likely to rape your wife than a legal immigrant, or a citizen.

I simply don't believe this is true.

The illegal immigrant has already demonstrated disrespect for the law.

If ALL illegal immigrants were removed, and/or prevented from entering our country, would the crime rate remain the same?

Would the 14 year old girl in Rockville have been raped?

[LockedBreech]

Deleted by user. Incorrect facts posted by myself (other perpetrator not confirmed as U.S. Citizen).

I stand by my earlier point that there has been no actual evidence presented that illegal immigrants are more criminally inclined, only supposition.

[walker2713]

Deleted by user. Incorrect facts posted by myself (other perpetrator not confirmed as U.S. Citizen).

I stand by my earlier point that there has been no actual evidence presented that illegal immigrants are more criminally inclined, only supposition.

If there were NO illegal immigrants in the country, there would be NO crimes committed by illegal immigrants. That would resolve the issue, period.

However, there are apparently forces at work which either invite or rationalize illegal immigration as wrong, but not intolerable.

I think it's intolerable and should be stopped.

That includes sending all of them home. I would then bar them from applying for legal immigration for five or ten years....I'm sure there are plenty of people around the world who'd eagerly welcome the opportunity to come to America, within the law.

[Kukuforguns]

Not surprisingly, the issue of whether illegal aliens (by which I mean non-residents who are illegally present in the US) commit crime at a higher rate than the general population has attracted a great deal of attention since Trump became a leading candidate. The most commonly referenced data supporting a conclusion that illegal aliens commit a disproportionate amount of crime is from a 2011 report published by the GAO (http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-187). The report looks at prison populations of aliens (legal and illegal). Unfortunately, the report was not intended to address criminality rate (rather it addressed the costs of incarcerating aliens). Nevertheless, the report suggests that illegal aliens commit serious crimes (homicide, robbery, rape) at rates exceeding that of the general population. It strongly appears that state governments and the federal government have better data that is not being released. President Trump's executive order requiring publication of reports on this issue will help resolve the issue (but that's at least a year from now).

[Duces Tecum]

. . . but calling people who disagree with the supposition that illegal immigration is somehow linked to a rape (a supposition with, so far, very little supporting evidence) "ninnies" isn't a great sign for the opposing argument . . .


. . . and you're a DICK if you say otherwise.

The way I see it, JAD opened with "DICK" (caps in original) and Rob raised him several "ninnies".

I found JAD's vulgar and demeaning blanket comment about me, my family, my friends and their families -- probably three-quarters of the people I know and all of the people I care about (the remaining 25% are all ninnies) -- to be immature and disgusting, but I'm not going to mention it because it would be crass.

I'll just wait until he wants something from me -- perhaps to borrow my car for the high school prom -- that I can decline.

[RoyGBiv]

MS-13 gang member deported 4 times stabbed 2 women, abused child, cops say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/23/ms-13-gang-member-deported-4-times-stabbed-2-women-abused-child-cops-say.html)

sexually assaulted a 2-year-old girl

WTF? There should be a law... !!

[RoyGBiv]

This thread makes my head spin.

Even if the folks who come here illegally "for a better life" never commit another crime, they are taking jobs away from people who are here legally. Many of them are sucking resources and dollars from social services and medicare and I could go on and on...

I am willing to debate the best way to deal with the millions of kids who were brought here illegally and have grown up not knowing any other home. But I'll be honest, I'm a tough love kind of guy. If you brought your kids here illegally, YOU are going to get deported regardless... If your kid hasn't reached the age of independence, well, it's YOUR damn fault for bringing them here illegally and they need to go home with you. Bye. If your kid is a Citizen, well, I'm open for discussion.

Any way you slice it, we need to control the border. Yes, we need to fix immigration policy too, but one has little to do with the other.
I don't know of any law that entitles anyone to stay here illegally at my expense. I give plenty to charity already.

[GuanoLoco]

MS-13 gang member deported 4 times stabbed 2 women, abused child, cops say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/23/ms-13-gang-member-deported-4-times-stabbed-2-women-abused-child-cops-say.html)

WTF? There should be a law... !!

The problem is that they landed the plane before assisting him with his first step back onto El Salvadoran soil.

[BobLoblaw]

I can fix this:
The illegal immigrant is no more likely to rape your wife than a citizen or legal immigrant so long as the citizen or legal immigrant is also a young male with nothing to lose from a large city where gang activity is prevalent.

[Totem Polar]

Forgive me if someone else touched on this aspect of the topic previously. One more factor in the illegal immigrant v criminality debate is this: someone with criminal ties to begin with stands a better chance of getting across the border illegally in the first place. To some extent (I'll leave major or minor up to those who know the border better than I) success at getting here and beating the system has to self-select for increased criminality.

I am not talking about projecting intent (prohibitum v in se), but merely observing success and resources.


I'm going to be reasonably hard to convince that illegal migration doesn't carry an increased risk of criminality, simply based on who has the easiest time migrating here outside the law. JMO.

[NEPAKevin]

Realistically, parents can not count on government, be it local, state, federal or their proxy, the school, to safe guard their children. If mommies and daddies do not want their little boys and girls bullied, beat up, raped, murdered or worse, they are going to have to do something about it them selves such as teaching little Billy to be a squad leader for the playground militia or little Suzy how to knee nutz into a bad boy's tonsils and how to sever a mooring line with her bare teeth.

[HCM]

If there were NO illegal immigrants in the country, there would be NO crimes committed by illegal immigrants. That would resolve the issue, period.

However, there are apparently forces at work which either invite or rationalize illegal immigration as wrong, but not intolerable.

I think it's intolerable and should be stopped.

That includes sending all of them home. I would then bar them from applying for legal immigration for five or ten years....I'm sure there are plenty of people around the world who'd eagerly welcome the opportunity to come to America, within the law.

Aliens who are deported have legal bars in returning legally for 5 or 10 years of life for the first deportation and 20 years of life for subsequent deportations

[RJ]

This thread makes my head spin.

Even if the folks who come here illegally "for a better life" never commit another crime, they are taking jobs away from people who are here legally. Many of them are sucking resources and dollars from social services and medicare and I could go on and on...

I am willing to debate the best way to deal with the millions of kids who were brought here illegally and have grown up not knowing any other home. But I'll be honest, I'm a tough love kind of guy. If you brought your kids here illegally, YOU are going to get deported regardless... If your kid hasn't reached the age of independence, well, it's YOUR damn fault for bringing them here illegally and they need to go home with you. Bye. If your kid is a Citizen, well, I'm open for discussion.

Any way you slice it, we need to control the border. Yes, we need to fix immigration policy too, but one has little to do with the other.
I don't know of any law that entitles anyone to stay here illegally at my expense. I give plenty to charity already.

This.

And I strongly believe assertions of folks like HCM, with first hand knowledge of this area, that illegal aliens commit crime at a higher rate than the gen pop.

And if that makes me a Nationalistic supporter of "America First", 0FG.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jc000]

Just check out figure 1.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf

[Totem Polar]

Just check out figure 1.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf

From the paragraph just below fig 1: 27 percent. Alrighty then. Thanks for a hot injection of fact into this discussion.

[Kukuforguns]

Just check out figure 1.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf
Couple of issues with just looking at figure 1. First, that deals with criminal aliens which means non-citizens who are criminals. It includes both aliens present in the U.S. legally and illegally. Second, figure 1 deals with federal prisons and not all prisons. The majority of robbers, murderers, and rapists may be in state prisons.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

From the paragraph just below fig 1: 27 percent. Alrighty then. Thanks for a hot injection of fact into this discussion.

I wonder what that number would've been if corrected for the amount of IAs deported in lieu of jail time, as is common..........I also wonder how it would change if all the IAs I deal with were actually taken for prosecution by the US Attorney's Office for their felony level charges, instead of being told, "Declined. They don't have a felony history." Well no shit......and they never will if we continue opting to never charge them with any of the 8 felonies they've committed in the last 10 years......

We don't even bother referring the vast majority of our IAs to ICE. The priority system in place means almost all of the detainers would be declined, since the USAO won't/can't prosecute any of them for their felonies.

Also keep in mind that figure represents US federal prisons. As I understand it, BOP facilities are generally filled with felons as opposed to lesser criminals. Almost half of all federal inmates are for drug-related crimes. Through some amount of gifted clairvoyance, I'm going to danger that there's a lot of IAs in federal prisons due to their involvement in drug trafficking.........

__________________________________________________ ________


I'm flabbergasted that anyone would consider IAs to not present a higher criminality rate than LPRs/AmCits. Unless you're on one of the earths that are flat, or one of those earths where dinosaurs built rafts to travel on currents from continent to continent, we know for a fact that criminality is related to socioeconomic status.

I don't know if this is a fucking head-exploding revelation for some here, but nearly the entire IA population is representative of the worst socioeconomic "caste" in America. You're talking about people that could have come here with literally the torn, ragged clothes on their back, suffering disease, starvation, malnutrition, dehydration, a complete lack of any education, a complete lack of trade skills, and so on. Whether or not they are inherently good people or not has fuck-all to do with the fact that people in hard situations tend to commit more crime.

On that alone, how do IAs not represent higher levels of criminality? Does the fact they're IAs mean that reality doesn't apply to them?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I agree with the posts about conflation of "illegal immigrants" and "general rapeyness".

I agree that if one rapist/murderer/whatever is let in, that's too many and in Canada I've argued that even legal immigrants who commit serious crimes should be flown halfway back to their home countries and if their home countries want to take over from there, they're welcome to supply a big pillow for their citizens to land on or whatever; I honestly don't care what happens and I feel that if we've handled the takeoff and half of the flight, then the remainder of the flight and the landing is entirely up to the country of their birth.

BUT: what if, for example, Martians were arriving and one in ten billion would commit a violent crime? You'd actually be better off, unless the population density increased so much that the number of people you encountered in a given day increased enough to offset the statistically lower probability of being raped by an entity you encountered.

That's not an argument in favour of illegal immigration but an argument against the logical fallacy I frequently see about how allowing in even one rapist is too many. I mean that's true and illegal immigration should be stopped, but there's a false equivalency being proffered there about how the presence of illegal immigrants will lead to an increase in felonies of whatever type. That MAY be true but I have not seen any numbers presented which indicate it, and pulling up anecdotes about individual events isn't evidence about the actual problems presented by illegal immigrants.

[Hambo]

I don't know if this is a fucking head-exploding revelation for some here, but nearly the entire IA population is representative of the worst socioeconomic "caste" in America. You're talking about people that could have come here with literally the torn, ragged clothes on their back, suffering disease, starvation, malnutrition, dehydration, a complete lack of any education, a complete lack of trade skills, and so on. Whether or not they are inherently good people or not has fuck-all to do with the fact that people in hard situations tend to commit more crime.

On that alone, how do IAs not represent higher levels of criminality?


That may be true of your experience, but it's not true everywhere. In fact, here they're more often victims of crime than perpetrators. It didn't take long before local gangs and thugs figured out that IAs specifically, and poor Hispanics in general, deal in cash, so Hispanic males get robbed at a high rate of speed. There have also been big busts for forced prostitution and human trafficking. When I was working for a defense attorney, I'm sure we had a few illegals, but our clients were always the same local assholes, all of whom are unfortunately not candidates for deportation.

DISCLAIMER: The above is not an argument in favor of illegal immigration.

[jc000]

Couple of issues with just looking at figure 1. First, that deals with criminal aliens which means non-citizens who are criminals. It includes both aliens present in the U.S. legally and illegally. Second, figure 1 deals with federal prisons and not all prisons. The majority of robbers, murderers, and rapists may be in state prisons.

It's just a snap shot of information. What it does show is that non-citizens (who make up under 10% of the population (http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-citizenship-status/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22 :%22asc%22%7D)) are overrepresented in Federal Prisons, over that time period.

[HCM]

It's just a snap shot of information. What it does show is that non-citizens (who make up under 10% of the population (http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-citizenship-status/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22 :%22asc%22%7D)) are overrepresented in Federal Prisons, over that time period.

They are similarly over represented in the state prison systems of states like CA,FL, and TX.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That may be true of your experience, but it's not true everywhere. In fact, here they're more often victims of crime than perpetrators. It didn't take long before local gangs and thugs figured out that IAs specifically, and poor Hispanics in general, deal in cash, so Hispanic males get robbed at a high rate of speed. There have also been big busts for forced prostitution and human trafficking. When I was working for a defense attorney, I'm sure we had a few illegals, but our clients were always the same local assholes, all of whom are unfortunately not candidates for deportation.

DISCLAIMER: The above is not an argument in favor of illegal immigration.
I'm just spitballing here but I'd guess that criminals looking for a target are going to be predisposed to selecting one that's radically less likely to go to the police for help. Illegal immigrants who are not themselves highly predatory criminals are probably really easy to victimize just on account of the tenuous nature of their presence in the country.

[txdpd]

I know some of you live in the area. I just know what I see/hear on the news.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/20/maryland-girl-allegedly-raped-in-high-school-bathroom-by-two-teens-at-least-one-here-illegally.html

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I'm not saying that a sexual assault did or did not happen, or that I have any specific knowledge of what happened in this incident. Sensational rape claims rarely turn out to be the sensational claims that were initially reported. Could the victim been violently assaulted and raped? Absolutely. Could she have had consensual sex with one or both of the boys, and then been violently assaulted? Can I pull a whole bunch of hypothetical situations our of my butt, and be pretty close to right with one of them? Absolutely.

Just because we read what we want to hear in the news, doesn't mean we should abandon a healthy sense of skepticism when it comes to anything published in the "news". The Obama admin and ilk spent the last 8 years running rough shod over actual rape victims in the military and delegitimatizing their plight, by using "rape" as a headline grabber and a as unquestionable term to push social experimentation on the troops. We shouldn't strive to be the same kind of people. Rape is a really serious issue, as is illegal immigration. It won't hurt anyone to wait a moment and make sure the nexus between the two exist before connecting the two to make an argument.

[GuanoLoco]

You have a point.

Has anyone ever had first hand knowledge of a newsworthy incident, later read the news report and NOT been appalled by the blatant disregard for the truth?

[Kukuforguns]

You have a point.

Has anyone ever had first hand knowledge of a newsworthy incident, later read the news report and NOT been appalled by the blatant disregard for the truth?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

[HCM]

I wonder what that number would've been if corrected for the amount of IAs deported in lieu of jail time, as is common..........I also wonder how it would change if all the IAs I deal with were actually taken for prosecution by the US Attorney's Office for their felony level charges, instead of being told, "Declined. They don't have a felony history." Well no shit......and they never will if we continue opting to never charge them with any of the 8 felonies they've committed in the last 10 years......

We don't even bother referring the vast majority of our IAs to ICE. The priority system in place means almost all of the detainers would be declined, since the USAO won't/can't prosecute any of them for their felonies.

Also keep in mind that figure represents US federal prisons. As I understand it, BOP facilities are generally filled with felons as opposed to lesser criminals. Almost half of all federal inmates are for drug-related crimes. Through some amount of gifted clairvoyance, I'm going to danger that there's a lot of IAs in federal prisons due to their involvement in drug trafficking.........

__________________________________________________ ________


I'm flabbergasted that anyone would consider IAs to not present a higher criminality rate than LPRs/AmCits. Unless you're on one of the earths that are flat, or one of those earths where dinosaurs built rafts to travel on currents from continent to continent, we know for a fact that criminality is related to socioeconomic status.

I don't know if this is a fucking head-exploding revelation for some here, but nearly the entire IA population is representative of the worst socioeconomic "caste" in America. You're talking about people that could have come here with literally the torn, ragged clothes on their back, suffering disease, starvation, malnutrition, dehydration, a complete lack of any education, a complete lack of trade skills, and so on. Whether or not they are inherently good people or not has fuck-all to do with the fact that people in hard situations tend to commit more crime.

On that alone, how do IAs not represent higher levels of criminality? Does the fact they're IAs mean that reality doesn't apply to them?

Just FYI - President Obama's Priority program ended with his administration - we are, for the most part back to enforcing the law as written and enacted by congress.

Second, DHS (ICE,USBP etc) do not request deportation in lieu of prosecution or incarceration that is a decision made by prosecutors. Aside from the social and moral implications, criminal convictions make it easier to deport IA's and easier to prosecute them under 8 USC 1326 if or when they return illegally.

With regard to 8 USC 1326 prosecution, the USAO intake guidelines vary office to office. In your AOR they only want cases with prior felony convictions but in many they will accept any alien with a criminal conviction, regardless of whether it is a felony or a misdemeanor. In others, they use a weighted score based on the number of deportations combined with the number of criminal convictions, whether felony or misdemeanor, or special circumstances.

8 USC 1326 is actually the most frequently prosecuted charge in the federal courts.

[Stony Lane]

Our political "elites" have decided to sacrifice our citizens on their alter of political correctness and diversity.

[TGS]

That may be true of your experience, but it's not true everywhere. In fact, here they're more often victims of crime than perpetrators. It didn't take long before local gangs and thugs figured out that IAs specifically, and poor Hispanics in general, deal in cash, so Hispanic males get robbed at a high rate of speed. There have also been big busts for forced prostitution and human trafficking. When I was working for a defense attorney, I'm sure we had a few illegals, but our clients were always the same local assholes, all of whom are unfortunately not candidates for deportation.

DISCLAIMER: The above is not an argument in favor of illegal immigration.

Hmmm....I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with. What you wrote is certainly true, IAs are a heavily victimized population (especially by fly-by-night immigration attorneys/multiservicios shops) but I'm not sure how that conflicts with what I wrote.

[RevolverRob]

I break the speed limit all the time. Probably broke at least six Illinois, Cook County, city of Chicago statutes on my walk to work this morning. Does this mean that I have no respect for the law? No. I respect it. It's fucking stupid sometimes, but I respect.

Meanwhile - let us return to the conceptual idea that it is really easy for people in El Salvador, who often live without indoor plumbing and minimal first-world facilities, to head on down to the US Embassy, and file all the paperwork they need to leave their shithole country and move here.

ASSUMING - that they have a birth certificate or can get one. ASSUMING that they can afford the bribes and costs necessary to obtain the correct El Salvadoran paperwork. They then must schedule a meeting with the US Immigrations folks, fill out a series of forms (which assumes they can read). And then get interviewed. Simultaneously, like most developed countries, we are pretty strict about not admitting people who don't have income to support themselves. So while our hypothetical El Salvadoran is filing their lengthy and expensive paperwork to enter this country, they must also - somehow (?) find a job in a foreign country they aren't in.

__

Meanwhile someone comes to your village in El Salvador and offers you passage to a country that is ripe with opportunity for smuggling some drugs in your stomach and you think, "My kid could actually NOT live in squalor and poverty, like I did/do." - You'd be fucking brain dead to not jump on that train and say, "Hey I'll figure out the consequences later." or even "Consequences be damned." - Your choice is your child will be sold into child slavery or die in your home country or you can try something else, somewhere else.

__

Seriously folks. Use your fucking brains and think about what you're saying for a minute. It's not easy to legally immigrate to this country. It's easy to illegally immigrate and if things work out try to figure it out after the fact. Meanwhile, folks are sitting around in Ivory Towers with a sense of smug superiority and not a single shred of compassion for a fellow human trying to get a better life.

Sure are some of them scumbags? Yes. But we have scumbags born in this country...just look at our current POTUS.

[Stony Lane]

Animated Immigration Map: (out of control in recent decades)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE_Z5epJmFs

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

[walker2713]

Sure are some of them scumbags? Yes. But we have scumbags born in this country...just look at our current POTUS.

I've been waiting for this thread to implode, and I think we're about there. :rolleyes:

[HCM]

Hmmm....I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with. What you wrote is certainly true, IAs are a heavily victimized population (especially by fly-by-night immigration attorneys/multiservicios shops) but I'm not sure how that conflicts with what I wrote.

What you are referring to is known as "Notario" fraud. Non attorneys practicing immigration law. In many Latin American countries it is common for independent paralegals to provide legal services similar to the way pharmacists thee can screen, diagnose and prescribe drugs for certain conditions.

IAs are also frequently victims of violent crime, often committed by other IAs of US persons from their own ethnic group.

[HCM]

I break the speed limit all the time. Probably broke at least six Illinois, Cook County, city of Chicago statutes on my walk to work this morning. Does this mean that I have no respect for the law? No. I respect it. It's fucking stupid sometimes, but I respect.

Meanwhile - let us return to the conceptual idea that it is really easy for people in El Salvador, who often live without indoor plumbing and minimal first-world facilities, to head on down to the US Embassy, and file all the paperwork they need to leave their shithole country and move here.

ASSUMING - that they have a birth certificate or can get one. ASSUMING that they can afford the bribes and costs necessary to obtain the correct El Salvadoran paperwork. They then must schedule a meeting with the US Immigrations folks, fill out a series of forms (which assumes they can read). And then get interviewed. Simultaneously, like most developed countries, we are pretty strict about not admitting people who don't have income to support themselves. So while our hypothetical El Salvadoran is filing their lengthy and expensive paperwork to enter this country, they must also - somehow (?) find a job in a foreign country they aren't in.

__

Meanwhile someone comes to your village in El Salvador and offers you passage to a country that is ripe with opportunity for smuggling some drugs in your stomach and you think, "My kid could actually NOT live in squalor and poverty, like I did/do." - You'd be fucking brain dead to not jump on that train and say, "Hey I'll figure out the consequences later." or even "Consequences be damned." - Your choice is your child will be sold into child slavery or die in your home country or you can try something else, somewhere else.

__

Seriously folks. Use your fucking brains and think about what you're saying for a minute. It's not easy to legally immigrate to this country. It's easy to illegally immigrate and if things work out try to figure it out after the fact. Meanwhile, folks are sitting around in Ivory Towers with a sense of smug superiority and not a single shred of compassion for a fellow human trying to get a better life.

Sure are some of them scumbags? Yes. But we have scumbags born in this country...just look at our current POTUS.

Have you ever been to El Salvador ?

There is too much inaccurate information here to address but suffice to say niether legal nor illegal immigration to the U.S. is easy however the process of illegal immigration is quite dangerous as well.

[YVK]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/attorney-1-teens-charges-dropped-school-rape-case-132255808.html

[rob_s]

Are the boys still here illegally? Why are they staying at all?

[WobblyPossum]

Slightly off topic, but I'm actually with the defense on this one. Child porn statutes are meant to protect minors from adults. I don't think it's within the spirit of the law to punish juveniles for sexting by making them sex offenders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[critter]

...
Not a soul is suggesting that we line them up and shoot them on sight.

Then allow me to suggest this. Line them up and shoot them on sight. (Technically, we'd line them up on sight, then shoot them. Or Grab them on sight, line them up, then shoot them. However it works semantically.)

I'm rather confident that would severely curtail the desire to sneak into the country in the first place. If sneaking in represents an opportunity for a better death, perhaps the incentive for sneakiness will dwindle.

Recidivism rate = 0.

Of course it's easy to be ridiculously cavalier when there is absolutely no snowball's chance of that ever happening. The point is, the incentive to come illegally needs to be removed completely.




Criminals have proven a complete disregard for laws. Why do we have to give them a pass until they hurt someone?? Why not punish them immediately and get the idea across that following the law is a good idea.


^^^This. Illegal intrusion is also "spitting in the faces" of every single immigrant who has gone through the legal process of immigration. I have no problem at all with immigration. I do have a problem with the complicated and overly expensive process which should be streamlined for those who both want and intend to assimilate, and have something to offer this nation. While, believe it or not, I do have sympathy for the plight of those living in shit holes, 'escaping a shit hole' should not be a on the list of criteria making one eligible.

ASH made some decent points. I'm not so sure that I buy the 1 in 10 figure, or that the percentage of criminals is the same as in the gen pop -- setting aside unavoidable fact that the actual rate of criminality is 100% by default.

Illegal Immigration *is* a major factor in this rape case. Had there been no illegal immigration, those particular perps would not have been at the scene of the crime.

[blues]

Slightly off topic, but I'm actually with the defense on this one. Child porn statutes are meant to protect minors from adults. I don't think it's within the spirit of the law to punish juveniles for sexting by making them sex offenders.

My agency investigated child porn and I've always been thankful to have escaped being assigned to that unit as I think it would be very difficult to deal with emotionally. But that's a separate matter. I just wanted to say I admire you for making the statement above. Too often the "spirit of the law" is forgotten or pushed aside in judicial decisions. It is something I have tried to be guided by during my career and in personal affairs. (I am not familiar enough with the law in this matter to make a judgement, but that doesn't change the respect given.)