DA/SA Training

[Sauer Koch]

When it comes to learning the DA trigger pull, and the transition to SA, Ernest Langdon seems to be the primary name that pops up, and he's great, but are there any others that I'm missing? I'm talking about guys who primarily shoot DA.

Thanks.

[Padwan]

I think Mike Pannone still shoots and competes with a TDA.

[Colt191145lover]

"Super Dave" Harrington used to do a lot of it , I do do not know what he shoots primarily now.

[Lon]

I think Mike Pannone still shoots and competes with a TDA.

He was using a CZ P07 iirc.

[spinmove_]

Super Dave has enough time behind an M9 that he probably can't forget how to run one if he tried.


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[LSP552]

Add Bruce Gray to the list of people who can teach high-level DA/SA.

[Carnifex]

I really don't think it's something you need a class for. Just dry fire for a week and you'll be fine.

[45dotACP]

Ben Stoeger seems to like TDA guns

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[Mirolynmonbro]

The Lucky Gunner YouTube channel also has a few videos on DASA shooting

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[ubervic]

I really don't think it's something you need a class for. Just dry fire for a week and you'll be fine.

I tend to agree, although I recommend lots of dry work and live fire in DA only.

More people seem to have allowed themselves to worry about or fear the TDA trigger, when the reality is that it's not that complicated and difficult. It's just different.

[Peally]

As previously mentioned there's a whole lot of guys shooting DA, it's not a huge hurdle to performance considering it's only one shot out of many.

[spinmove_]

TDA is blown way more out of proportion than it should have ever been. People worried about the first DA pull need to take a long hard look at revolver shooters that can shoot way faster than them. People worried about having to decock need to take a long hard look at just about every long gun that they'll ever touch. People worried about the DA to SA transition need to take a long hard look at the fact that there really isn't a "transition" as SLG pointed out.

TDA gives imperfect humans extra layers of safety without asking much in return and arguably gives you a better than average trigger pull in return.


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[JAD]

As previously mentioned there's a whole lot of guys shooting DA, it's not a huge hurdle to performance considering it's only one shot out of many.

In sport shooting.

I agree that it's not a huge hindrance to performance, but I think so because with competent instruction the DA/SA transition is NBD -- not because it sucks, but you only have to do it on the first shot of the stage.

My 'stage' is going to probably be about 2-3 rounds long, and it would not be OK for it to be 50% shitty.

[spinmove_]

In sport shooting.

I agree that it's not a huge hindrance to performance, but I think so because with competent instruction the DA/SA transition is NBD -- not because it sucks, but you only have to do it on the first shot of the stage.

My 'stage' is going to probably be about 2-3 rounds long, and it would not be OK for it to be 50% shitty.

TLG (and I believe others) advocate(d) to decock between strings of fire within a stage. Shoot, decock, move, shoot, decock, move. No different than handling a rifle. Shoot, safe, move, off safe, shoot, safe, move, etc.


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[JAD]

Super exactly

[Peally]

Sport shooting or not, if you practice before the day you get attacked by crazed rapists it should be a non-issue ;)

[Sauer Koch]

Thanks for the responses. Keep in mind, that although I've been shooting shotguns & rifles most of my adult life, I've only been shooting defensive pistols consistently, since last January. In that time, I have been shooting 3-4 times a month. My work schedule keeps me away from home for 7 days at a time, although I then have 7 days off, so I have plenty of time to catch up.

Over time, I've figured out, instinctively I guess, some small details that have proved helpful, such as the speed at which I pull the trigger, has a huge influence on my accuracy. Just last Sunday, we went to the range, and I was hitting low, drawing from my holster, and finally decided that I had to be using too much tension, and pulling harder on the trigger than I should, and when I just lightened up on my trigger finger, and pulled deliberately, but smoothly, with complete follow through, the rounds were very close to my POA.
Another day, I was shooting, and noticed that I had way too much tension in my thumbs, and when I relaxed them, my accuracy improved. These are the little things that don't seem to get discussed much, but in my experience, seem to matter. I have to say, this forum gets into most of these small details, much more than any other forum I've read, so it's much appreciated.

My wife and I really like our Sigs (220, 226, M11 A-1), so I'm just trying to become as proficient with them as practically possible. We did a pistol course back in December, so we just want to continue to work some of the drills we learned. We both need to get busy with some dry fire work.

[taadski]

Three more that the Op can add his list of versed DA/SA instructors…

Seeklander,
Jeff Gonzalez,
Kyle Defoor,


I might be in the minority here (and biased by the fact that I almost exclusively shoot and carry DA/SA pistols) but I can consistently outperform myself to the first shot from the draw in DA vs a single action or striker type. I suspect it's something I could work through with some significant mileage with a different system, but there's something about being able to be quite a bit more aggressive on the trigger as things become aligned/refined. IME, FWIW.

[Sauer Koch]

Three more that the Op can add his list of versed DA/SA instructors…

Seeklander,
Jeff Gonzalez,
Kyle Defoor,


I might be in the minority here (and biased by the fact that I almost exclusively shoot and carry DA/SA pistols) but I can consistently outperform myself to the first shot from the draw in DA vs a single action or striker type. I suspect it's something I could work through with some significant mileage with a different system, but there's something about being able to be quite a bit more aggressive on the trigger as things become aligned/refined. IME, FWIW.

I've seen some of Seeklander's drills on Trigger Time, but so far, nothing on DA trigger skills. Defoor said in a video that the days of exposed hammer DA guns was long gone, so I didn't expect to see him getting into any of the details I'm seeking, although he may...I'll have to check on Gonzales.

We do shoot DA only, fire, de-cock, fire, de-cock; that is how we made most of our progress, but we've slacked off on this a little, so we need to get back to it.

[taadski]

I'm not sure I would consider any of those three voracious DA/SA guys. But all three have significant experience with DA/SA platforms and learned to shoot them at quite a high level. Seeklander was very involved in the development of the Air Marshal training programs. Defoor and Gonzales for obvious reasons, given their NSW backgrounds. They may not currently drink the DA/SA koolaid, but all three definitively know how to teach the system.

I might recommend spending a majority of time working two shot iterations that include both the DA and the SA press. It's exceptionally valuable across the gamut, whether you're working on rapid stuff from the holster or working on marksmanship at the 25. While it's perhaps a little counter-intuitive, the troublesome part for many new DA/SA shooters is the first SA shot, not the DA one. While finger position, direction of the press (read basic mechanics) shouldn't change between the two shots, going from a long and heavier DA, to a lighter crisp SA can be a recipe for some anticipation with newer shooters. Shooting one-hole drills up close in two shot increments is a great way to start evaluating and building your skills.

[jwperry]

I've seen some of Seeklander's drills on Trigger Time, but so far, nothing on DA trigger skills. Defoor said in a video that the days of exposed hammer DA guns was long gone, so I didn't expect to see him getting into any of the details I'm seeking, although he may...I'll have to check on Gonzales.

We do shoot DA only, fire, de-cock, fire, de-cock; that is how we made most of our progress, but we've slacked off on this a little, so we need to get back to it.

Last year? Maybe 2 years ago Defoor spent some significant time behind a P229. At least it was documented as such on his social media channel(s).

[Sal Picante]

When it comes to learning the DA trigger pull, and the transition to SA, Ernest Langdon seems to be the primary name that pops up, and he's great, but are there any others that I'm missing? I'm talking about guys who primarily shoot DA.

Thanks.

What is the question here, specifically?

Is it just the transition from DA to SA? If so, buy Stoeger's dry fire book and get to work.

If the question is tactical doctrine, e.g. "Should you decock while moving around", I'd ask Pannone or someone else qualified.
(I'll add that in IDPA/USPSA nobody I know decocks while running around...)

There really isn't much to it... I think Ernest really covered about as much as you could regarding it. I'd add in that the Roger's "flip'n'press" (or as gamers would say, "Slap dat ho!") triggering technique removes a lot of the "yips" associated with DA/SA transitions.

[Clobbersaurus]

What Les said.

But, I will add that gripping the gun as hard as you are supposed to takes away a lot of the issues associated with the supposed DA/SA transition boogie man.

[Matt O]

I would agree that this isn't something you need a class for if we're just talking about the mechanics of shooting a TDA. It takes a bit to master a TDA system and really ingrain it, but the concept of how it works and what you need to do and when is pretty obvious and not really worth spending the money on a class.

Watch a few videos if necessary, then grip the shit out of the gun and do dry and live fire. Don't practice in either just DA or just SA mode, do both, as intended.

[Sal Picante]

It takes a bit to master a TDA system and really ingrain it

Splitting hairs a bit here, but, I think that same could be said for any trigger system - I mean, loads of people "low-left" with a Glock too...

[Paul Sharp]

... If the question is tactical doctrine, e.g. "Should you decock while moving around", I'd ask Pannone or someone else qualified.
(I'll add that in IDPA/USPSA nobody I know decocks while running around...)...

I'm not Pannone and I might not be qualified? My training and experience regarding movement has been to decock before moving. Shoot, assess, decock, communicate, then move if necessary.

[Matt O]

Splitting hairs a bit here, but, I think that same could be said for any trigger system - I mean, loads of people "low-left" with a Glock too...

This is definitely true, I think I was speaking to the fact that a two-variable trigger is inherently more complicated than a single-variable trigger. Is this difference significant or meaningful? I'd say definitely not in the long run and is certainly outweighed by the benefits the "complexity" of the TDA trigger system brings.

[Sauer Koch]

What is the question here, specifically?

Is it just the transition from DA to SA? If so, buy Stoeger's dry fire book and get to work.

If the question is tactical doctrine, e.g. "Should you decock while moving around", I'd ask Pannone or someone else qualified.
(I'll add that in IDPA/USPSA nobody I know decocks while running around...)

There really isn't much to it... I think Ernest really covered about as much as you could regarding it. I'd add in that the Roger's "flip'n'press" (or as gamers would say, "Slap dat ho!") triggering technique removes a lot of the "yips" associated with DA/SA transitions.

Les, simply put, I'm just trying to be sure I understand all the nuances of trigger discipline, so that I can make the most accurate DA shot I can. I never thought much about the de-cocking while moving, but it's something to consider; I guess it may depend on how long you think the delay in shooting may be, or if you're in rough terrain, where sure footing may be an issue (?) Honestly, this is a little past my abilities right now, but thanks for mentioning it, it's something I'd enjoy working on.

I've been known to over-think things, so maybe I am a little. As I said, I have figured out somethings, but I just want to be sure I get all of what I need.

Thanks again for the replies.

[98z28]

Les, simply put, I'm just trying to be sure I understand all the nuances of trigger discipline, so that I can make the most accurate DA shot I can. I never thought much about the de-cocking while moving, but it's something to consider; I guess it may depend on how long you think the delay in shooting may be, or if you're in rough terrain, where sure footing may be an issue (?) Honestly, this is a little past my abilities right now, but thanks for mentioning it, it's something I'd enjoy working on.

I've been known to over-think things, so maybe I am a little. As I said, I have figured out somethings, but I just want to be sure I get all of what I need.

Thanks again for the replies.
I was taught and I advocate to de-cock before you walk, de-cock before you talk. As soon as your sights leave the target and your finger leaves the trigger, it's time to de-cock. It should be an automatic part of "dismounting" the gun (i.e. your sights leave the target, your finger leaves the trigger, and you de-cock).

[breakingtime91]

This is definitely true, I think I was speaking to the fact that a two-variable trigger is inherently more complicated than a single-variable trigger. Is this difference significant or meaningful? I'd say definitely not in the long run and is certainly outweighed by the benefits the "complexity" of the TDA trigger system brings.

I think we often associate our skill level or ability to train to be what most others bring to shooting/carrying a gun. Unfortunately the majority would never take the time or interest to master a TDA gun or seek out training to do so. I was listening to Field Craft Survival podcast and the host (a 19 year special ops veteran) basically said the TDA was too complicated to waste time on.. If people are hearing that type of guy say that they all begin to follow that word like gospel..The same guy advocated getting a lighter and crisper trigger in a glock, with seemingly disregard for the increased risk of ad/nd.

[Matt O]

I think we often associate our skill level or ability to train to be what most others bring to shooting/carrying a gun.

That is true, most people don't have the same goals or mindset regarding pistol-craft that members here have. While anyone can learn to shoot a TDA pistol, like anything with any amount of learning curve, there has to be a will before there can be a way.

[SLG]

I think we often associate our skill level or ability to train to be what most others bring to shooting/carrying a gun. Unfortunately the majority would never take the time or interest to master a TDA gun or seek out training to do so. I was listening to Field Craft Survival podcast and the host (a 19 year special ops veteran) basically said the TDA was too complicated to waste time on.. If people are hearing that type of guy say that they all begin to follow that word like gospel..The same guy advocated getting a lighter and crisper trigger in a glock, with seemingly disregard for the increased risk of ad/nd.

That is a big part of the problem. Most people really have no idea how to train, on almost any level. I'm amazed at how fast adult education and training concepts progress, and I'm no where near the bleeding edge of them. The reason most people are good at anything is that they are interested in those things. Period. It does it not matter what unit someone came from, there is no guarantee that they know anything about guns, teaching, training or shooting.

The real test of someone's understanding of training, is seeing how well and how quickly they learn things that don't interest them.

In the case of the TDA though, why go to someone who isn't interested in it? I don't care if they had to shoot it professionally for a time, if they think it is obsolete, then they are not someone I want to train with. I had several long conversations today with guys who are really passionate about TDA's. I guarantee they can teach it better than someone who simply met standards.

If you are a shooting enthusiast, you will learn to shoot a TDA very quickly. If you secretly long for a Glock or a 1911, then you will always find a reason to go to that. I haven't shot a TDA in years, but today I put 70 rounds through two Sigs. Crushed my Glock shooting today.

BTW, I'm not a Glock hater at all, and I have willingly dedicated myself to them when I could use guns that many would consider more desirable and easier to do well with. I like the gen4 Glock quite a bit, but to pretend that it is as capable as a Sig or Beretta, metal framed TDA, seems silly to me. Again though, it depends what you want to measure. You can make any gun out to be "better" than any other if you try hard enough.

[breakingtime91]

That is a big part of the problem. Most people really have no idea how to train, on almost any level. I'm amazed at how fast adult education and training concepts progress, and I'm no where near the bleeding edge of them. The reason most people are good at anything is that they are interested in those things. Period. It does it not matter what unit someone came from, there is no guarantee that they know anything about guns, teaching, training or shooting.

The real test of someone's understanding of training, is seeing how well and how quickly they learn things that don't interest them.

In the case of the TDA though, why go to someone who isn't interested in it? I don't care if they had to shoot it professionally for a time, if they think it is obsolete, then they are not someone I want to train with. I had several long conversations today with guys who are really passionate about TDA's. I guarantee they can teach it better than someone who simply met standards.

If you are a shooting enthusiast, you will learn to shoot a TDA very quickly. If you secretly long for a Glock or a 1911, then you will always find a reason to go to that. I haven't shot a TDA in years, but today I put 70 rounds through two Sigs. Crushed my Glock shooting today.

BTW, I'm not a Glock hater at all, and I have willingly dedicated myself to them when I could use guns that many would consider more desirable and easier to do well with. I like the gen4 Glock quite a bit, but to pretend that it is as capable as a Sig or Beretta, metal framed TDA, seems silly to me. Again though, it depends what you want to measure. You can make any gun out to be "better" than any other if you try hard enough.

Your love for sig has given me a wandering (lazy?) eye toward them

[SLG]

Your love has sig has given me a wandering (lazy?) eye toward them

I do love them, and I am biased, and I'm happy to admit it.

[Doc_Glock]

Your love has sig has given me a wandering (lazy?) eye toward them

Me too. I picked up a bargain priced 226 and have been working it dry. Interesting if massive piece.

Also fondled a 229 yesterday. Hmmm.

Is there a "best" TDA to get used it, M9 vs Sig vs HK vs CZ?

I played with a rental wall P30 v3 today and the trigger was pretty meh compared to the 226. Much more svelte though.

I know nothing of TDA hammers so this is all new.

[Matt O]

I'm a pretty satisfied pizza blaster guy, but I admit I've always wanted to try out one of the steel frames P226's.


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[FrankinCA]

I really don't think it's something you need a class for. Just dry fire for a week and you'll be fine.

This.

[MSparks909]

Me too. I picked up a bargain priced 226 and have been working it dry. Interesting if massive piece.

Also fondled a 229 yesterday. Hmmm.

Is there a "best" TDA to get used it, M9 vs Sig vs HK vs CZ?

I played with a rental wall P30 v3 today and the trigger was pretty meh compared to the 226. Much more svelte though.

I know nothing of TDA hammers so this is all new.

I don't like factory HK TDA triggers. Sure they're shootable, and call me a trigger snob if you must, but shooting a well tuned 8-9# DA Sig or Beretta for a while will make you turn your nose up at anything less. I can personally jump back and forth between Beretta and Sig with no issue. I shelved my Berettas a month ago and have been working hard with a P226 lately. But I shot one of my Berettas the other day just because, with no issues. I'm a big Beretta and Sig guy, but lately I've been eying some CZ offerings to dabble with.

[TheNewbie]

That is a big part of the problem. Most people really have no idea how to train, on almost any level. I'm amazed at how fast adult education and training concepts progress, and I'm no where near the bleeding edge of them. The reason most people are good at anything is that they are interested in those things. Period. It does it not matter what unit someone came from, there is no guarantee that they know anything about guns, teaching, training or shooting.

The real test of someone's understanding of training, is seeing how well and how quickly they learn things that don't interest them.

In the case of the TDA though, why go to someone who isn't interested in it? I don't care if they had to shoot it professionally for a time, if they think it is obsolete, then they are not someone I want to train with. I had several long conversations today with guys who are really passionate about TDA's. I guarantee they can teach it better than someone who simply met standards.

If you are a shooting enthusiast, you will learn to shoot a TDA very quickly. If you secretly long for a Glock or a 1911, then you will always find a reason to go to that. I haven't shot a TDA in years, but today I put 70 rounds through two Sigs. Crushed my Glock shooting today.

BTW, I'm not a Glock hater at all, and I have willingly dedicated myself to them when I could use guns that many would consider more desirable and easier to do well with. I like the gen4 Glock quite a bit, but to pretend that it is as capable as a Sig or Beretta, metal framed TDA, seems silly to me. Again though, it depends what you want to measure. You can make any gun out to be "better" than any other if you try hard enough.

I know SF guys are not gods and they have their own goofy apples. However, I'm still surprised when I hear stuff like that come from people who have so much more real world and shooting experience than me. That's not to take away from how tough they are and what they do for the country, but it's surprising.

I had a green beret tell me that The current Kimber offerings were the best bang for the buck in the 1911 world.

[breakingtime91]

I know SF guys are not gods and they have their own goofy apples. However, I'm still surprised when I hear stuff like that come from people who have so much more real world and shooting experience than me. That's not to take away from how tough they are and what they do for the country, but it's surprising.

I had a green beret tell me that The current Kimber offerings were the best bang for the buck in the 1911 world.

I am reminded constantly of this type of stuff.. a friend I was in combat with bought a compact 40 for home defense because the "stopping power"

[spinmove_]

I am reminded constantly of this type of stuff.. a friend I was in combat with bought a compact 40 for home defense because the "stopping power"

Sadly my wife is still of this mentality despite the fact that I've offered her resources that dispute that claim and she hasn't shot her M&P40c since the CPL class we took almost 2 or 3 years ago now. She finds my interest in firearms and self defense "cute" in a "manly sort of way". She doesn't seem to complain at all when I bring venison to the table though...


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[spinmove_]

If you are a shooting enthusiast, you will learn to shoot a TDA very quickly. If you secretly long for a Glock or a 1911, then you will always find a reason to go to that. I haven't shot a TDA in years, but today I put 70 rounds through two Sigs. Crushed my Glock shooting today.



And this right here is what digs in the back of my mind when I think of when I sold my P229 for a G19. I like my G19, don't get me wrong, but I can pick up a SIG after not handling one for months and shoot it just as well if not better than the same G19 that I dry practice with almost everyday and hands down have far more live rounds through.

I would most likely switch back if we were forced to move to a 10 round magazine state.


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[Shootingrn]

I found this helpful in my DA/SA transition I've been making for the last 3 months or so.

https://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture.

Scroll to the bottom for a DA/SA version and get it in.

Since I've spent time working on just DA/SA it's made me a better shooter whether irregardless of the platform.

[Sauer Koch]

That is true, most people don't have the same goals or mindset regarding pistol-craft that members here have. While anyone can learn to shoot a TDA pistol, like anything with any amount of learning curve, there has to be a will before there can be a way.

So true! I'm enjoying the challenge of the DA trigger.

[fatdog]

When it comes to learning the DA trigger pull, and the transition to SA....are there any others that I'm missing?

Bill Rogers and Claude Werner

[Sauer Koch]

In the case of the TDA though, why go to someone who isn't interested in it? I don't care if they had to shoot it professionally for a time, if they think it is obsolete, then they are not someone I want to train with. I had several long conversations today with guys who are really passionate about TDA's. I guarantee they can teach it better than someone who simply met standards.

Absolutely!

[Olim9]

Defoor said in a video that the days of exposed hammer DA guns was long gone, so I didn't expect to see him getting into any of the details I'm seeking, although he may...I'll have to check on Gonzales.

I thought so too but apparently he does still shoot DA/SA?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BK9FtH0ARQK/

[Sauer Koch]

[QUOTE=Shootingrn;580328]I found this helpful in my DA/SA transition I've been making for the last 3 months or so.

[url]https://pistol

Got it, thanks! This should be fun (humbling I'm sure!)

[Doc_Glock]

And this right here is what digs in the back of my mind when I think of when I sold my P229 for a G19. I like my G19, don't get me wrong, but I can pick up a SIG after not handling one for months and shoot it just as well if not better than the same G19 that I dry practice with almost everyday and hands down have far more live rounds through.

I would most likely switch back if we were forced to move to a 10 round magazine state.


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I am amazed at how I pick up almost anything not Glock and shoot it better or as well as the Glock I have many thousands of dry reps and rounds through. I don't know if that is the new gun phenomena or what? However, improving my Glock shooting seems to improve everything else so that is where I focus.

[Jason M]

Bill Rogers and Claude Werner

I would think these would be top choices as well:

http://agiletactical.com/

http://www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/

[TheNewbie]

In my academy a locally respected retired officer who had truly been there and done that, taught firearms. He taught one guy to thumb cock his DA/Sa ruger when coming out of the holster.

[Sal Picante]

I'm not Pannone and I might not be qualified? My training and experience regarding movement has been to decock before moving. Shoot, assess, decock, communicate, then move if necessary.

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

[TheNewbie]

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

I would probably decock. For the first shot the DA does not really hinder me, but provides a significant level of safety.

You're right, this is a great discussion.

[Kevin B.]

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

Not Paul, but yes.

[Peally]

I would not, but I am also a gaymer first Sam Fisher second.

[MSparks909]

I took a pistol class with Defoor last year and I used my Brig Tac. On some movement drills where we were running from the 50-25-6 yard lines, he told me to decock before moving positions. He said he was taught "Decock before you talk, decock before you walk." If I'm moving a decent distance I will decock but if I'm moving a few feet, like behind a car, I personally won't.

[Sal Picante]

There is a lot of good stuff in another thread regarding decocking while moving... Personally, I don't feel like the DA slows me down on much of anything, but it isn't a habit I've considered much. I do decock when scanning/assessing, when the gun comes off the mount, but if I'm moving from a short distance to another, I'll just leave it... Case and point: Shot a PPC match last night and I don't decock when opening the barricade, etc. I remember asking Super Dave about this and his answer was "If there's shooting going on, just keep it SAO... Specifically, that was in regards to barricades. If there's a larger break, and you're going admin, decock."

Anyway - this is thread drift... Let's get back to the point of mastering the DA trigger.

[DAB]

i've been shooting either my Px4 or 92F for the last 6-9 months at IDPA matches. it's not that hard to get used to DA/SA. but if all you hear and read is scary stuff, you likely won't even give it a try. you'll just go along with the sheep and get a Glock/MP/HK/Sig.....

i started off at the bottom of the score sheet, now i'm in the upper 1/4. DA/SA has not held me back.

[TheNewbie]

The DA in the HK P30 I dry fired was pretty bad, but I didn't shoot it so who knows. My CZ P-07 doesn't have a butter smooth trigger, but when I am actually shooting it, things go where I want them.

[GardoneVT]

I don't agree with the notion of "DA doesn't matter because it's the first round out of 15". That's the wrong mindset,because one may only have the first shot to make it count.

If you're scared of a DA shot,train harder. Not holding myself up as a great pistoleros,but when I do 25 yard drills I start in DA just like at 3.When I first carried my 92 I trained by shooting every round in a 100 shot session DA. Meaning shoot,decock. Shoot,decock.

Youd best believe my thumb was sore - but now I'm not scared of long range shots and I hit the decocker on instinct.

[Jason M]

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

I was taught when off target and moving that it was time to decock. Same same with the rifle safety.

[Jared]

This is definitely true, I think I was speaking to the fact that a two-variable trigger is inherently more complicated than a single-variable trigger. Is this difference significant or meaningful? I'd say definitely not in the long run and is certainly outweighed by the benefits the "complexity" of the TDA trigger system brings.

I'm not picking on you personally, so don't take this like that, but the whole "complicated" thing gets tossed around so much in the TDA discussions that I've gotta toss this out there.

A TDA system is not integral calculus. It's not that hard at all. As long as the gun isn't mechanically broken, it does the same thing every string, 1 da shot, followed by SA shots until the gun is decocked, then the process repeats. That's it.

Now, I know this not what you were saying​, but I've seen "complexity" thrown in so many times where people act like the thing randomly decided for you which pull you're going to get and try to turn it into some strange complex equation that just isn't there.

If someone wants to learn a TDA, my advice is this, seek competent training, and then practice. Learn how it works from a good teacher and then do your homework. But I'd tell the same guy the same thing if he said he wanted to master a Glock or a 1911 also.

[Paul Sharp]

Lemme pose a question, just to frame some context around the doctrine: If there was an ongoing fire-fight, and you were moving from a point of cover being the rear wheel of a car to a better point of cover behind the engine block, would you decock before making that movement?

Just curious - personally, I suspect I'd only decock when assessing, after the engagement is reasonably concluded.

This is good stuff...

I would because that's what I was trained to do, just like I would on-safe with an AR or 1911.

If I think about it a little deeper though, the last time we shot together I ran a 92. You set up some movement stages and I don't recall decocking before moving from point A to point B? I've shot 1911/2011's in matches and I know with those pistols I always on-safe when I start to move, but I don't recall doing that with the 92 before rolling out to the next box or barricade during our practice. I'm racking my brain trying to remember, I know in dry fire I do because it's such a distinct movement to decock with the support side hand as the hand comes off the gun prior to moving.

[Matt O]

I'm not picking on you personally, so don't take this like that, but the whole "complicated" thing gets tossed around so much in the TDA discussions that I've gotta toss this out there.

A TDA system is not integral calculus. It's not that hard at all. As long as the gun isn't mechanically broken, it does the same thing every string, 1 da shot, followed by SA shots until the gun is decocked, then the process repeats. That's it.

Now, I know this not what you were saying​, but I've seen "complexity" thrown in so many times where people act like the thing randomly decided for you which pull you're going to get and try to turn it into some strange complex equation that just isn't there.

If someone wants to learn a TDA, my advice is this, seek competent training, and then practice. Learn how it works from a good teacher and then do your homework. But I'd tell the same guy the same thing if he said he wanted to master a Glock or a 1911 also.

Did you skip the last several pages of discussion and just jump to a conclusion based on this one post? ;)

[45dotACP]

The DA in the HK P30 I dry fired was pretty bad, but I didn't shoot it so who knows. My CZ P-07 doesn't have a butter smooth trigger, but when I am actually shooting it, things go where I want them.
Tbh, when I ran through some rounds on a P30 I wasn't totally amazeballs blown away by the trigger like with a tuned CZ shadow...But it was not the "dragging a brick across gravel" that I was told by various gun fora...

Then again, I shoot mostly Glocks, and I shoot best when I let the trigger all the way forward. Not what I'd call a buttery smooth trigger.

I've yet to find a striker fired gun I can shoot as accurately as my Beretta 92 with a D spring. The first DA shot is handled by just gripping tight and watching the sight until it lifts. Sigs are cool too for a decent stock DA trigger. I also think they might be a little simpler to decock for me because the reach is shorter.

I very much doubt the majority of people who have been in a shooting with a TDA pistol decocked before moving (if they moved) but that's pure unverified speculation.

[Jared]

Did you skip the last several pages of discussion and just jump to a conclusion based on this one post? ;)

No, although I did read it backwards, started at last page and worked forward. I wasn't necessarily venting at you in particular or PF in general, just something I've seen again and again on gun fora when TDA systems come up and the token "must not be one tiny bit more complex than striker pistol X" guy pops in with the "too complicated" bit. So I was shaking my fist at the sky from past experience I guess.

On a related note, one reason I stayed at PF was because good discussion could be had about TDA guns versus the stuff I was used to seeing elsewhere.

[JAD]

much doubt the majority of people who have been in a shooting with a TDA pistol decocked before moving (if they moved) but that's pure unverified speculation.

That's more of an argument for DAO/LEM than against decocking on dismount. I think the DA/SA transition is secondary; I think the idea that people can't be taught to remember to decock is a more salient concern.

I don't agree with it, though. I'm a moron, and I safe when dismounting 100% of the time, unconsciously. I'm very confident that with a similar amount of reps I could learn to decock on dismount.

[45dotACP]

That's more of an argument for DAO/LEM than against decocking on dismount. I think the DA/SA transition is secondary; I think the idea that people can't be taught to remember to decock is a more salient concern.

I don't agree with it, though. I'm a moron, and I safe when dismounting 100% of the time, unconsciously. I'm very confident that with a similar amount of reps I could learn to decock on dismount.
True...But you do fall into the category of "enthusiast". I meant more as a blanket statement of all people who have been in shootings....Many of whom are probably not enthusiasts. And yeah it's definitely an argument for a DAO trigger of some type...Though I don't like them much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that with training and reps you can ingrain that habit...And I think it's probably worthwhile....But then you can also ingrain the habit of keeping the trigger finger on the frame but the "my finger is my safety" is generally laughed at by many competent shooters and instructors.

[JAD]

I don't disagree, which is why I very much like what Bolke wrote a long time ago about the LEM.

I don't know about you guys, but I fall down sometimes.

[SLG]

I don't know about you guys, but I fall down sometimes.

Sorry. Have you tried medication? Or a helmet? :-)

[JAD]

Sorry. Have you tried medication? Or a helmet? :-)
It's the medication that makes me fall down.

[SLG]

It's the medication that makes me fall down.

Gotcha. Good thing your gun is on safe. :-)

[Redhat]

Strangely enough, I shoot the M9 better than the G19 or 1911, probably due to years training with / carrying it. Even worse, I've never owned a Beretta. The 1911 is my first gun love since I was a kid but I'm mediocre with it at best and the G19, well my wife can rack the slide so that's the one I work with now. All this talk has me reconsidering a bit now though.

[JAD]

It's the medication that makes me fall down.

Oh, and Cecil. Turns out Cecil makes me fall down.

[Olim9]

Is it weird that I have a feeling that my DA shots are better than the shots I make with SA? This could probably be a byproduct of most of my dryfire admittedly being done with DA. Does anyone share this thought?

[45dotACP]

Oh, and Cecil. Turns out Cecil makes me fall down.
As I understand it...That's kinda his thing right?

And yeah it's definitely normal to shoot Berettas mo better than others. Even just the regular ol FS versions are pretty damn accurate.

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[SLG]

Oh, and Cecil. Turns out Cecil makes me fall down.

You swoon for Cecil too?

[Cecil Burch]

You swoon for Cecil too?

How could you not?

[Cecil Burch]

Oh, and Cecil. Turns out Cecil makes me fall down.

But I do also help out when you are down there..............

[w provence]

At the range I'm always telling my officers to de-cock the hammer, if not they always holster with the hammer back. Before you talk or walk.


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[SLG]

So this before you talk or walk thing sounds good, like tough street cop stuff. I'd never heard it before this thread, and it sounds like a common thing in some parts. However, it is my opinion that It doesn't address the correct way to decock, and it doesn't take into account any kind of effective training principles.

The correct way to teach decocking, is to have the student decock as soon as they begin to break down their mount. Trigger finger goes into a high pinned register, and then they decock. Every time, all the time. Tons of one and two shot drills will give the reps needed.

This way, the �� is always decocked before it gets back to the chest, sometimes called position three. When the �� passes position 2, and begins to rotate down towards the holster, the thumb goes on to the hammer. Every time, all the time.

You cannot allow any leeway for where the decock happens, nor the thumb, nor the trigger finger, for that matter, or people will fail to do the right thing through no fault of their own.

Safety manipulation on 1911s and M4s works in a very similar fashion. For that matter, so does locking your car door.

Nothing is foolproof, but this is the best way to achieve the highest success in this area. There is slightly more to it than I wrote out, but hopefully that will give people some idea of how to go about training it correctly.

[JAD]

S, do you decock during a reload? I don't safe, because I can't, but I would if I could. I do release the striker on my P7. I don't have enough TDA experience to know what I'd do with one of those.

[SLG]

S, do you decock during a reload? I don't safe, because I can't, but I would if I could. I do release the striker on my P7. I don't have enough TDA experience to know what I'd do with one of those.

You can't decock during a slide lock reload.

A tac load always occurs after decocking.

[rsa-otc]

So this before you talk or walk thing sounds good, like tough street cop stuff. I'd never heard it before this thread, and it sounds like a common thing in some parts. However, it is my opinion that It doesn't address the correct way to decock, and it doesn't take into account any kind of effective training principles.

The correct way to teach decocking, is to have the student decock as soon as they begin to break down their mount. Trigger finger goes into a high pinned register, and then they decock. Every time, all the time. Tons of one and two shot drills will give the reps needed.

This way, the �� is always decocked before it gets back to the chest, sometimes called position three. When the �� passes position 2, and begins to rotate down towards the holster, the thumb goes on to the hammer. Every time, all the time.

You cannot allow any leeway for where the decock happens, nor the thumb, nor the trigger finger, for that matter, or people will fail to do the right thing through no fault of their own.

Safety manipulation on 1911s and M4s works in a very similar fashion. For that matter, so does locking your car door.

Nothing is foolproof, but this is the best way to achieve the highest success in this area. There is slightly more to it than I wrote out, but hopefully that will give people some idea of how to go about training it correctly.

The bold above is QFT.

I believe whole heartedly in SLG's words above and strive to instill that in my students when teaching DA/SA, which right now boils down to my son and my daughter, LE and Military respectively.

That said. I recognize that under stress it doesn't always happen. After 3 years of running a S&W 3rd gen gun in the late 80's I took a John Farnam course and when they pulled me off the line of John's Dualtron course I had to be told to De-cock. This was after 3 years and 10,000's of reps. That shook me to the core and reinforced keeping my head in the game.

This was the same course that after not missing during the entire course; when it came to the final test I choked and missed the knock down target and then stared in disbelief. My success over the previous 3 days had programmed my mind set. Sometimes failure is the best teaching tool. We just need to make sure that failure is during training and not during an actual confrontation.

[David S.]

Talking and walking is cute. It gets much of the point across in a succinct manner. I hope it goes without saying, decocking should not be limited to just those two.

I prefer to view decocking positively, vs negatively (when can I decock, vs when do I have to decock). Decocking is fun. It's productive and safer. It's automatic, and doing things automatically makes me feel more operatory. I love decocking and do it as often as possible, particularly in high stress situations. Decocking is the best.

I'm being silly, but that's my basic decocking philosophy. I will take any opportunity I can to decock my gun. If my finger moves off the trigger to register position, the gun gets safed or decocked. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is an emergency reload.

[Sauer Koch]

So this before you talk or walk thing sounds good, like tough street cop stuff. I'd never heard it before this thread, and it sounds like a common thing in some parts. However, it is my opinion that It doesn't address the correct way to decock, and it doesn't take into account any kind of effective training principles.

The correct way to teach decocking, is to have the student decock as soon as they begin to break down their mount. Trigger finger goes into a high pinned register, and then they decock. Every time, all the time. Tons of one and two shot drills will give the reps needed.

This way, the �� is always decocked before it gets back to the chest, sometimes called position three. When the �� passes position 2, and begins to rotate down towards the holster, the thumb goes on to the hammer. Every time, all the time.

You cannot allow any leeway for where the decock happens, nor the thumb, nor the trigger finger, for that matter, or people will fail to do the right thing through no fault of their own.

Safety manipulation on 1911s and M4s works in a very similar fashion. For that matter, so does locking your car door.

Nothing is foolproof, but this is the best way to achieve the highest success in this area. There is slightly more to it than I wrote out, but hopefully that will give people some idea of how to go about training it correctly.

Excellent!

This thread has been great. Is it just me, or is this worthy of becoming a sticky?

[Sauer Koch]

Talking and walking is cute. It gets much of the point across in a succinct manner. I hope it goes without saying, decocking should not be limited to just those two.

I prefer to view decocking positively, vs negatively (when can I decock, vs when do I have to decock). Decocking is fun. It's productive and safer. It's automatic, and doing things automatically makes me feel more operatory. I love decocking and do it as often as possible, particularly in high stress situations. Decocking is the best.

I'm being silly, but that's my basic decocking philosophy. I will take any opportunity I can to decock my gun. If my finger moves off the trigger to register position, the gun gets safed or decocked. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is an emergency reload.

Again, excellent!

[KG]

There is slightly more to it than I wrote out, but hopefully that will give people some idea of how to go about training it correctly.

Thanks SLG. If you get a chance I'd appreciate hearing what the "slightly more" is.

[LSP552]

To build on what SLG said, the every time all the time also applies to dry fire. And this is where the disconnect happens for many. Every time you finish a dry fire string, move the decocking lever even though the hammer is down. Do the DA stroke, let the trigger out enough to simulate a SA shot, for as many as you wish. Then move the decocking lever at the end of the simulated SA shots.

Failure to move the decocking lever during dry fire actually trained you NOT to decock. And under stress you will do exactly that.

Decocking is an each and every time thing, live and dry fire.

If you do this, it doesn't take any more time to teach than taking your finger off the trigger and placing it in your register position.

[Cecil Burch]

To build on what SLG said, the every time all the time also applies to dry fire. And this is where the disconnect happens for many. Every time you finish a dry fire string, move the decocking lever even though the hammer is down. Do the DA stroke, let the trigger out enough to simulate a SA shot, for as many as you wish. Then move the decocking lever at the end of the simulated SA shots.

Failure to move the decocking lever during dry fire actually trained you NOT to decock. And under stress you will do exactly that.

Decocking is an each and every time thing, live and dry fire.

If you do this, it doesn't take any more time to teach than taking your finger off the trigger and placing it in your register position.


So 100% agree with this. It was something I did not do when I was running a SIG 2022 years ago, but since going to the P07, I made it a practice to dryfire it exactly the way SLG said - as soon as you break the firing mount. It
s easy to ass in, and builds a good habit with no negatives.

[GJM]

The DA/SA pistols most commonly used in competition do not even have a decocker.

How and when you decock seems as much art as science, with one exception -- the pistol needs to be decocked before it goes back into the holster.

[LSP552]

The DA/SA pistols most commonly used in competition do not even have a decocker.

How and when you decock seems as much art as science, with one exception -- the pistol needs to be decocked before it goes back into the holster.

I can't argue about games with a TDA. I can argue it can't be discretionary if you are talking about defense. Your brain should have other priorities when you are fighting for your life than thinking about how to run your gun. Doing something the same way, all the time, isn't a bad thing. And with a bit of training you give up nothing that matters in a defensive situation with the DA stroke. In fact, I personally have shot some of my best groups DA.

[Sal Picante]

A tac load always occurs after decocking.

I def. decock when tac loading, as it is an admin procedure, but don't do it while tac-loading on the clock.
I think this is one of the things that bothers me most about IDPA... You're on the clock, but a tac-load should be a largely admin process.

Insightful discussions...

[Sal Picante]

Excellent!

This thread has been great. Is it just me, or is this worthy of becoming a sticky?

Might be good to break out the posts talking bout decock ...

[GJM]

The reason I said the absolute requirement to decock is going back in the holster, is there seems to be a lot of variation in the real world. Hell, I had a BLM officer get out of vehicle to approach my wife and I when we were legally shooting in the desert, and he cocked his P226 in his holster before exiting his vehicle.

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[breakingtime91]

I def. decock when tac loading, as it is an admin procedure, but don't do it while tac-loading on the clock.
I think this is one of the things that bothers me most about IDPA... You're on the clock, but a tac-load should be a largely admin process.

Insightful discussions...

I learned tac loads as "moment of opprutonity" reload. Not sure it is correct but I remember doing a tac reload after getting to cover during a fight.. I'll be interested to hear what the common thing to do is.. I also practice my tac reload to be quick though so I'm not sure if I do it different admin wise..

[JAD]

You can't decock during a slide lock reload.

My duh. Apparently I need to spend some quality time with a TDA.

I do safe and would decock if doing a 'speed load,' but I can't recall the last time I did or practiced one of those.

[GJM]

Looking through the Nairobi mall photos, it is hard to finded a decocked DA/SA pistol.

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[breakingtime91]

Looking through the Nairobi mall photos, it is hard to finded a decocked DA/SA pistol.

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Do their czs even have decockers? Also, not to hate on them, but I doubt their training is the level of most shooters here.

[LSP552]

The reason I said the absolute requirement to decock is going back in the holster, is there seems to be a lot of variation in the real world. Hell, I had a BLM officer get out of vehicle to approach my wife and I when we were legally shooting in the desert, and he cocked his P226 in his holster before exiting his vehicle.

The reason we see things like that, along with holster thumb snaps or latches being disengaged while approaching, is because they don't have confidence in their ability to run their gun and gear. So much training fail in general, and I'm not just talking about TDA use.

[Mr_White]

Decocking when dismounting is essentially what I was taught in defensive training long ago. Since then I've seen a lot of people do a lot of moving around with a DA/SA gun in SA mode in a competitive context. That prompts me to think more about the defensive doctrine of decocking, though that is still what I would go with. And since no one seems to have brought it up yet - what about an SFA without manual safety? A lot of those guns have triggers that are approximate to a lot of SA triggers, with some extra slack in the front. Obviously, there is no option to decock them, but would we in the defensive world consider it unsafe to move with an SFA in hand? We clearly don't. So that gives me more pause on the defensive doctrine of decocking and prompts me to think about it some more, though that is still what I would go with.

Just a few more thoughts for the discussion!

[GJM]

The reason we see things like that, along with holster thumb snaps or latches being disengaged while approaching, is because they don't have confidence in their ability to run their gun and gear. So much training fail in general, and I'm not just talking about TDA use.

Specifically in the case of the BLM guy, he admitted seeing us with guns, he was uncomfortable with his DA ability. I offered to help him with that, but he declined. :)

[nalesq]

Decocking when dismounting is essentially what I was taught in defensive training long ago. Since then I've seen a lot of people do a lot of moving around with a DA/SA gun in SA mode in a competitive context. That prompts me to think more about the defensive doctrine of decocking, though that is still what I would go with. And since no one seems to have brought it up yet - what about an SFA without manual safety? A lot of those guns have triggers that are approximate to a lot of SA triggers, with some extra slack in the front. Obviously, there is no option to decock them, but would we in the defensive world consider it unsafe to move with an SFA in hand? We clearly don't. So that gives me more pause on the defensive doctrine of decocking and prompts me to think about it some more, though that is still what I would go with.

Just a few more thoughts for the discussion!


I think by not decocking whenever it is practical to do so, at the very least, one is giving up one of the primary advantages of a DA trigger for "real world" use, which is that it is marginally more forgiving of stress-induced carelessness than a SFA trigger.

To the extent that a trigger that is more forgiving of careless handling is also one we would regard as "safer," then it is certainly LESS safe to fail to decock whenever the pistol is dismounted, though it may not fall to the level of being unacceptably unsafe, if professional standards don't regard running around with a SFA pistol as unacceptably unsafe.


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[nalesq]

Duplicate

[spinmove_]

Do their czs even have decockers? Also, not to hate on them, but I doubt their training is the level of most shooters here.

So CZs that don't have a decocker have a safety instead, right? Or am I way off on that?


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[breakingtime91]

So CZs that don't have a decocker have a safety instead, right? Or am I way off on that?


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All that I have seen. Honestly most czs I have seen have been a safety? Idk lol

[Lomshek]

Looking through the Nairobi mall photos, it is hard to finded a decocked DA/SA pistol.


Except for IDPA guy it's hard to find someone with their finger off the trigger. I agree with breakingtime91 that the level of training there is probably waaaayyyyy behind where instructors start yelling about decocking when not engaging a target.

[Paul Sharp]

That's kinda what I was talking about in my last post to Les. For some reason I didn't decock until the final dismount and movement to holster, despite quite a bit of training to decock every time my left hand comes off the pistol. As I posted before, I've been trained to shoot, assess, decock, communicate and if necessary move. The decock happens has the pistol is dismounted and the hands start to come apart at the #3. As the left hand is coming off the pistol, swipe the decocker so it's ready to be holstered.

It's definitely interesting to me to realize I've been trained and I practice one way but in competition I perform slightly differently.

[Clobbersaurus]

Decocking when dismounting is essentially what I was taught in defensive training long ago. Since then I've seen a lot of people do a lot of moving around with a DA/SA gun in SA mode in a competitive context. That prompts me to think more about the defensive doctrine of decocking, though that is still what I would go with. And since no one seems to have brought it up yet - what about an SFA without manual safety? A lot of those guns have triggers that are approximate to a lot of SA triggers, with some extra slack in the front. Obviously, there is no option to decock them, but would we in the defensive world consider it unsafe to move with an SFA in hand? We clearly don't. So that gives me more pause on the defensive doctrine of decocking and prompts me to think about it some more, though that is still what I would go with.

Just a few more thoughts for the discussion!

You make some good points. I've seen enough running and gunning in a competition setting with fully cocked DA/SA and SA guns with 3lb (and under) triggers to give me pause as well. Granted, it's a tightly controlled setting, with a high degree of safety protocol, but I've seen guys, trip, fall, stumble etc, with fully cocked guns and have yet to see an ND.


That being said, I shoot DA/SA guns and in a class setting I always decock when dismounting the gun. I do believe that the length of a DA trigger does provide the user with more options. I wrote about this before, but last year I tried my 92D at a match. It's a DA only gun, and it was measurably harder to shoot that gun in a competition setting, but something happened that convinced me that the DA trigger is an option I want to have on my guns. On one stage I clearly remember running into position, aligning the gun on target and pressing the trigger to break a shot. During the press, I noticed that my sights had become horribly misaligned. I was able to come off the trigger, stabilize the sights, and then continue the trigger press. I am quite certain had I been in SA mode with another gun I would have broken that shot. It made me think of the realities of a defensive scenario and how fast things can change. The DA length gives you options, and to this day I still think if I were able to carry, I would choose a DA only auto or at the very least a DA/SA with stringent decocking proceedures.

The only time decock at a match is during the load and make ready command. Interestingly, I was scolded for decocking during the "if clear, hammer down and holster" command; the RO told me that he wanted to see me pull the trigger so he knew the gun was unloaded. I still need to do more talking with him on that one.

[Mr_White]

Good post, and don't get me started on unload-show clear procedures. :) They, and the cold range, are a necessary evil to get the great benefits of competition.

[DAB]

i was doing a unload and show clear last match, and after ejecting the remaining round and letting the slide go forward, i accidentally decocked my 92F as it was going forward. so there i am with hammer down, safety down. i flipped the safety back up, pulled the trigger, and everyone was happy.

[Redhat]

...but would we in the defensive world consider it unsafe to move with an SFA in hand?

I think I might consider it "less safe"

[YVK]

Looking through the Nairobi mall photos, it is hard to finded a decocked DA/SA pistol.



They all got procedurals assessed for that, as well as for other infractions like cover etc.



How does a left-handed shooter decock a classic SIG during a dismount without breaking both support and strong hand grips immediately after finishing shooting?

[LSP552]

They all got procedurals assessed for that, as well as for other infractions like cover etc.



How does a left-handed shooter decock a classic SIG during a dismount without breaking both support and strong hand grips immediately after finishing shooting?

A left hand shooter can use the index finger, which works well. They can also slightly rotate the gun to the right and reach over and decock using the right thumb.

As a right hand shooter, I use the left thumb while maintaining my grip.

[Cecil Burch]

Looking through the Nairobi mall photos, it is hard to finded a decocked DA/SA pistol.




Since they are probably CZ-75s, they most likely aren't decocked because they usually don't have a decocker, but those shooters might have the thumb safety engaged, and are therefore pretty safe, and that would show a level of competency. It is pretty hard to tell from those photos if the thumb safety is engaged or not, so making any judgement on their level of skill/ability/knowledge is close to impossible from this distance.

[That Guy]

Decocking when dismounting is essentially what I was taught in defensive training long ago. Since then I've seen a lot of people do a lot of moving around with a DA/SA gun in SA mode in a competitive context. That prompts me to think more about the defensive doctrine of decocking, though that is still what I would go with. And since no one seems to have brought it up yet - what about an SFA without manual safety? A lot of those guns have triggers that are approximate to a lot of SA triggers, with some extra slack in the front. Obviously, there is no option to decock them, but would we in the defensive world consider it unsafe to move with an SFA in hand? We clearly don't. So that gives me more pause on the defensive doctrine of decocking and prompts me to think about it some more, though that is still what I would go with.

Just a few more thoughts for the discussion!

I may be old-fashioned, but my thinking is as follows:

I always decock when dismounting the gun in dry practice (even if the gun was already decocked).
I always decock the gun after shooting a string in live fire practice.
I even always decock the gun prior to moving during competition, due to being such a tactical timmieh.
I really do not like the competition world's attitude towards safeties and decockers - ie. the lack of using the safety features of firearms during dynamic movement. (Actually the whole "speed first, safety second" attitude that seems so common.)
I dislike and distrust SFA guns that do not have manual safeties. One of the reasons I bought a Beretta and not a Glock the last time I bought a gun, even though the Glock has a huge logistical advantage, is due to the Glocks lack of a manual safety.

In short, I think the current competition oriented thinking is wrong in this regard. Of course, I'm stuck in C class / Sharpshooter level so what do I know about anything...



How does a left-handed shooter decock a classic SIG during a dismount without breaking both support and strong hand grips immediately after finishing shooting?

I use my trigger finger to swipe down the decocking lever. I find this very easy and intuitive to do. In face I think the decocker in a Sig is one of the more lefty-friendly designs.

[YVK]

Yep, I know the technique. The question was of a principle. To decock on a dismount as training philosophy requires, a lefty SIG shooter has to give up his support hand grip for a little, then give up his strong hand grip a bit, and then decock - immediately after finishing shooting, as a gun is still extended on target. I am not a lefty or SIG shooter, this was just an example, but the way my Berettas are set up, I have to break both hands' grips a bit to reach a lever with my thumb. I think it conflicts somewhat with another training principle of maintaining a positive grip on a gun until holstered, and I personally feel very uncomfortable releasing a complete two handed grip on the gun that's extended out.

[Paltares8]

I wasn't going to ask, for one because I think I know the answer, and two didn't want to contribute to a thread-drift, but now I have to. First of all I was going to ask about putting on a safety in the case of moving, talking, etc. Also, I was curious what you all think about manually decocking, as it seems a lot if you are at least familiar with TDAs, if not carrying them regularly. I personally prefer having a safety instead of a decocker, but I know many prefer a decocker. In the same circumstances that were being described before, would it be recommended to still decock, albeit manually, or just throw on the safety?

[LSP552]

Yep, I know the technique. The question was of a principle. To decock on a dismount as training philosophy requires, a lefty SIG shooter has to give up his support hand grip for a little, then give up his strong hand grip a bit, and then decock - immediately after finishing shooting, as a gun is still extended on target. I am not a lefty or SIG shooter, this was just an example, but the way my Berettas are set up, I have to break both hands' grips a bit to reach a lever with my thumb. I think it conflicts somewhat with another training principle of maintaining a positive grip on a gun until holstered.

I tend to not decock while still extended. A left hand shooter will have to slightly compromise their grip but it's easily reacquired and I don't think it's a big deal. I think it's preferable to not decocking. Lots of things sound important, and can be under certain circumstances, but every pistol has certain traits that we learn to work around.

Never looking at your holster when reholstering has been beaten into people for years. Most people now understand that looking while reholstering isn't an automatic death sentence.

[YVK]

Also, I was curious what you all think about manually decocking



Does manually decocking mean lowering a hammer by hand while pinning a trigger?

[Paltares8]

I pull the hammer back and then put my thumb between it and the firing pin, then pull the trigger just enough to release the hammer then get my trigger finger on the frame, then release the hammer. That's what I do, but I was never taught a specific way.

[LSP552]

I pull the hammer back and then put my thumb between it and the firing pin, then pull the trigger just enough to release the hammer then get my trigger finger on the frame, then release the hammer. That's what I do, but I was never taught a specific way.

Definitely don't do that with a SIG.

[YVK]

I have to do something similar with my competition decocker-less Tanfo. While I never had a problem, very few things make me feel more uncomfortable than a manual hammer drop. If there is a thumb safety option to be used during movement, I don't think there is much discussion here. More so, if there was no thumb safety option, I'd prefer to run with a cocked gun rather than try to manually decock while moving.

[Paltares8]

Thanks guys. No I don't own a Sig, and thought it best not to do while moving, especially in a stressful situation. Just curious

[GardoneVT]

-- the pistol needs to be decocked before it goes back into the holster.

That is quickly becoming a minority opinion. On the occasion I've seen DA/SA pistols carried on the range by non-uniformed folk, all of them were holstered with a cocked hammer.

[LSP552]

That is quickly becoming a minority opinion. On the occasion I've seen DA/SA pistols carried on the range by non-uniformed folk, all of them were holstered with a cocked hammer.

Not all opinions are created equal. An opinion without personal experience is just wishful thinking.

[Duelist]

I pull the hammer back and then put my thumb between it and the firing pin, then pull the trigger just enough to release the hammer then get my trigger finger on the frame, then release the hammer. That's what I do, but I was never taught a specific way.

If you are running a CZ75 with no decocker, that's pretty much what you have to do if you want to carry it hot, hammer down. If I wanted to carry a CZ75 (tempting, especially a compact aluminum frame one), I'd get one with a decocker.

Just put money down on a 92A1, because its controls all work the same way my favorite carry guns (S&W 3913) do. My SIG experiment is at an end. I think.

[Redhat]

If you are running a CZ75 with no decocker, that's pretty much what you have to do if you want to carry it hot, hammer down. If I wanted to carry a CZ75 (tempting, especially a compact aluminum frame one), I'd get one with a decocker.

Just put money down on a 92A1, because its controls all work the same way my favorite carry guns (S&W 3913) do. My SIG experiment is at an end. I think.

Check out the CZ75BD ...if they still make it.

[Duelist]

That is quickly becoming a minority opinion. On the occasion I've seen DA/SA pistols carried on the range by non-uniformed folk, all of them were holstered with a cocked hammer.

Not at any match or stage I have a hand in running. If it will "cock and lock", they can put on the safety, if they would rather do that. Otherwise, TDAs get decocked. Even if they are mad at me after.

[Sauer Koch]

That is quickly becoming a minority opinion. On the occasion I've seen DA/SA pistols carried on the range by non-uniformed folk, all of them were holstered with a cocked hammer.

Wow...no way would I holster my 226, hammer cocked, and walk around that way.

[Duelist]

Check out the CZ75BD ...if they still make it.

Oh, I have. Like them. My match gun used to be a CZ75BSA. Decided I wanted to go TDA and couldn't find a BD. Got a good deal on a SIG, and mostly like it, except I can't get my thumb to stop riding the slide lock lever. 2000 rounds in, and I'm done messing with it. Never a problem with a Beretta, so a layaway down payment got made today, and I'll go in with some trade stock tomorrow and finish the deal.

[Lomshek]

On the occasion I've seen DA/SA pistols carried on the range by non-uniformed folk, all of them were holstered with a cocked hammer.

You're talking about a gun like a Beretta 92 not a CZ or HK selective action where they can holster cocked but with the safety on? If that's the case that's some weapons grade stupid on their part.

[Paltares8]

I carry a CZ P07, same difference as an omega 75. I just like the thought of a safety on it, as I've found that it works, and it can't have both. In any case, the only situations I find myself decocking is at the range or during dry fire, or when doing some type of administrative handling. All of which aren't high pressure situations. I'd love to have one that had both capabilities, but so far no dice. I do like 92s a lot. Never tried a PX4 but I'm sure I'd like those the same. They're on my short list

[Trooper224]

That is quickly becoming a minority opinion. On the occasion I've seen DA/SA pistols carried on the range by non-uniformed folk, all of them were holstered with a cocked hammer.

When I came on the job the agency had switched to semi's only a few years beforehand. There was an old troop who spent the majority of his career in the wheel gun era. During qualification he would habitually forget to decock the P220 before holstering, as well as never remembering which buttons or levers did what. When it was his turn on the line everyone would usually find something to do on the back of the range. Thankfully, he retired soon thereafter.

[GardoneVT]

You're talking about a gun like a Beretta 92 not a CZ or HK selective action where they can holster cocked but with the safety on? If that's the case that's some weapons grade stupid on their part.

Not unless there's a SAO Sig 2022, or a similarly configured 92FS with the slide mounted safety.

The latter example was of an RSO, and his attempt at a reasonable explaination was so destructive to my brain cells I could file a disability claim.

[Le Français]

I carry a CZ P07, same difference as an omega 75. I just like the thought of a safety on it, as I've found that it works, and it can't have both. In any case, the only situations I find myself decocking is at the range or during dry fire, or when doing some type of administrative handling. All of which aren't high pressure situations. I'd love to have one that had both capabilities, but so far no dice. I do like 92s a lot. Never tried a PX4 but I'm sure I'd like those the same. They're on my short list
May I suggest the USP9c V1? It's about the size of a P07, and has both decocker and manual thumb safety. I find the controls very easy to use. My protocol is to decock and engage the safety when I come off target.

I still compete with and carry Glocks, largely because that is what is issued at work. The DA/SA system makes a great deal of sense.

[Lomshek]

Not unless there's a SAO Sig 2022, or a similarly configured 92FS with the slide mounted safety.

The latter example was of an RSO, and his attempt at a reasonable explaination was so destructive to my brain cells I could file a disability claim.

Let me guess. It's better that way because it's impossible to make accurate hits with the DA shot so you're better off to holster it cocked. :p

[w provence]

Since they are probably CZ-75s, they most likely aren't decocked because they usually don't have a decocker, but those shooters might have the thumb safety engaged, and are therefore pretty safe, and that would show a level of competency. It is pretty hard to tell from those photos if the thumb safety is engaged or not, so making any judgement on their level of skill/ability/knowledge is close to impossible from this distance.

I always carried mine like a Hi Power. Hammer back, safety on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[That Guy]

Yep, I know the technique. The question was of a principle. To decock on a dismount as training philosophy requires, a lefty SIG shooter has to give up his support hand grip for a little, then give up his strong hand grip a bit, and then decock

Hmm. I do not recall having to mess with my grip at all when decocking a Sig. That's one reason I like those guns so much.


First of all I was going to ask about putting on a safety in the case of moving, talking, etc. Also, I was curious what you all think about manually decocking

If the gun has a safety and not a decocker, I'd just run it like a SAO.

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[spinmove_]

So if pistols like the P-07, CZ75B Omega have an option to have a safety where you could run it like a SAO with safety instead of DA/SA and were of the mindset that learning to on safe/off safe the pistol is no more difficult than learning to decock, then why would one not want that option?


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[Cecil Burch]

So if pistols like the P-07, CZ75B Omega have an option to have a safety where you could run it like a SAO with safety instead of DA/SA and were of the mindset that learning to on safe/off safe the pistol is no more difficult than learning to decock, then why would one not want that option?



Because we prefer the first DA shot, with the attendant longer/heavier pull as a fight management tool over the SA pull?

[Duelist]

Because we prefer the first DA shot, with the attendant longer/heavier pull as a fight management tool over the SA pull?

Which is the whole reason we chose to buy and carry a TDA instead of a 1911 or P35.

[PD Sgt.]

Because we prefer the first DA shot, with the attendant longer/heavier pull as a fight management tool over the SA pull?

This is important. I do not know how many people I have backed off of shooting (using a DA/SA) at the last possible instant because something changed and they no longer needed to be shot. These are people I had already made a decision to shoot and I was engaged on the trigger. At least a few of these people would have been shot had I been using a SA, and likely had I been using a SFA as well.

[JHC]

This is important. I do not know how many people I have backed off of shooting (using a DA/SA) at the last possible instant because something changed and they no longer needed to be shot. These are people I had already made a decision to shoot and I was engaged on the trigger. At least a few of these people would have been shot had I been using a SA, and likely had I been using a SFA as well.

This seems like a strong argument for the DAO semis of the '90's era since the situation can be just as fluid for subsequent shots or the introduction of additional suspects into the scene after a shot and the gun goes to SA mode.

[Peally]

Has anyone pulled out all that German research that concluded the DA shot doesn't do diddly for safety yet? I would to start a little drama but dammit I'm a lazy man.

[Dave J]

Has anyone pulled out all that German research that concluded the DA shot doesn't do diddly for safety yet? I would to start a little drama but dammit I'm a lazy man.

IIRC, that's not quite what the German research found. Rather, the conclusion was that the length of pull was much more important than the weight. I'd argue that supports the idea of DA having a safety advantage over most SFA options -- assuming the shooter is adequately trained to decock, if using a TDA rather than a DAO.

[Peally]

I'll take your word for it, I couldn't remember the specifics of it. I shoot a wildly dangerous VP9 with what I hear is a hair trigger ready to loot and maim so what do I know ;)

[breakingtime91]

I'll take your word for it, I couldn't remember the specifics of it. I shoot a wildly dangerous VP9 with what I hear is a hair trigger ready to loot and maim so what do I know ;)

wild man :cool:

[Clobbersaurus]

Has anyone pulled out all that German research that concluded the DA shot doesn't do diddly for safety yet? I would to start a little drama but dammit I'm a lazy man.


I would like to read that study, if someone can find it. I googled around for 10 minutes or so and couldn't find anything but various forum opinions from random Cleti.

[Peally]

I honestly can't find it either with my searching.

[taadski]

I believe the work you're looking for is:

Heim, C, Niebergall, E, and Schmidtbleicher, D., "Involuntary Firearms Discharge - Does The Finger Obey The Brain".


I've not been able to find it online either, except in reference.

[Dave J]

Not exactly what I was looking for, but related:

http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/3.html


Heim ran 25 participants (13 female and 12 male, average age 25, all armed with the sensor-equipped SIG) through repetitions of 13 vigorous movements common to police work while their index finger was on the trigger.

In about 6 per cent of cases, enough trigger pressure was registered to have fired the pistol had it been uncocked (that is, mechanically set for an initial double-action trigger pull). In about 20 per cent of cases, the pressure was sufficient to have fired the gun had it been cocked (as with secondary rounds). The gun used had a 12-pound double-action trigger pull and a 5-pound pull, single-action.

This does seem to indicate a quantifiable difference in ND potential between DA and SA, which isn't really a surprise. I do not know if that is the same "German study" that I recall TLG referring to when trigger weight vs. pull length was discussed in the past. It is quite possible I am recalling his wording incorrectly, and I sure wish he was still around to clear things up.

Also FWIW, this was discussed in a thread last year too.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21470-Info-on-FBI-study-regarding-trigger-weight-versus-length-of-pull

[taadski]

I believe the info is from the same (or a very related) study I posted above. There was a Police One article that referenced the work at some point too, IIRC.

[Lomshek]

Also FWIW, this was discussed in a thread last year too.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21470-Info-on-FBI-study-regarding-trigger-weight-versus-length-of-pull


https://youtu.be/6bOy3RNyWME