Your thoughts on a production holster

[JRCHolsters]

I am finally taking the plunge this year and going to make my first short production run of holsters to put on the shelf. I have been working out a few processes to efficiently produce a quality rig without a higher end custom price. For these holsters, I will be using drum dyed HO or W&C leather, not horsehide. They will also be detail press molded, not hand boned.

Here are my thoughts on a first run;

BS-SS - my standard pancake belt slide

Brown(ish) color

25 degree rake

1.5" x .250 loop tunnels

1911 5"

$75-80 off the shelf

I have always respected P-F members valued insights, as they have helped influence my line over the years. My question to you is multifold.
If I had these sitting on the shelf, available to purchase on my website, would you buy that over waiting for something custom?
Since I will be making these in lots of about 20 holsters, what are your thoughts on different holster / gun models you would be interested in?
My thought is to keep things standard for this line, NOT CUSTOM. Please keep that in mind with responses.

As always, I am very open to suggestion. Nothing is set in stone yet.

Thanks in advance, Jim

[NGP]

My only thought would be I'd much prefer snaps vs. belt slide. Otherwise I would definitely pick one up, especially at or near that price.

[jwperry]

I state the below questions not in a pejorative tense (as you know I like your products) but rhetorically.

Why should I buy that and not a Galco from Amazon for $71 shipped?
How much of your business is centered around the 5" 1911 and not say a Glock or P320?

I'd be more interested in buying a COTS product for a 'service grade' pistol than a 1911, which for me personally and in my view is more of a custom market due to the required attention they get.

[JRCHolsters]

I state the below questions not in a pejorative tense (as you know I like your products) but rhetorically.

Why should I buy that and not a Galco from Amazon for $71 shipped?
How much of your business is centered around the 5" 1911 and not say a Glock or P320?

I'd be more interested in buying a COTS product for a 'service grade' pistol than a 1911, which for me personally and in my view is more of a custom market due to the required attention they get.


Good questions, glad you asked.
Per the Galco question. I have been taking a hard look at Galco, Desantis, etc holsters over the last couple of years. IMHO, the quality of the leather has been going down the tubes. Cheaper and softer cuts are being used cut costs and increase margins. Though my holsters will be leather as well, I will only be using high grade hides and running small lots, so there can still be better attention to detail.

1911 over the Glock...... for the moment, simple logistics. I make tons of 1911 rigs, as well as glock, hk, Sig. You have to start somewhere though. This is one of the reasons I am presenting the situation to the forum for feedback. I am certainly not above changing my mind based on what I hear from all of you ;)

[JRCHolsters]

My only thought would be I'd much prefer snaps vs. belt slide. Otherwise I would definitely pick one up, especially at or near that price. Certainly not out of the question, but probably not for a first run................depending on the feedback I get.

[blues]

Good questions, glad you asked.
Per the Galco question. I have been taking a hard look at Galco, Desantis, etc holsters over the last couple of years. IMHO, the quality of the leather has been going down the tubes. Cheaper and softer cuts are being used cut costs and increase margins. Though my holsters will be leather as well, I will only be using high grade hides and running small lots, so there can still be better attention to detail.

Ain't it the truth. I compared one of my leather holsters from one of the above from the early 80's to one made by them recently and it was night and day...literally. Fortunately, a neighbor wanted it and I gave him a good deal to get rid of it and replaced it with your OSS holster for my 686+ which is light years ahead in the quality of the material alone. (Let alone construction.)

I think that if your price point is reasonably close to the offerings from these companies that the discriminating buyer will be foolish to consider going elsewhere.

It might even be worthwhile to consider selling some via amazon (at least temporarily) to get a foothold in a different market and have the reviews available for those who do not visit boards like this one. Just a thought.

[jwperry]

Good questions, glad you asked.
Per the Galco question. I have been taking a hard look at Galco, Desantis, etc holsters over the last couple of years. IMHO, the quality of the leather has been going down the tubes. Cheaper and softer cuts are being used cut costs and increase margins. Though my holsters will be leather as well, I will only be using high grade hides and running small lots, so there can still be better attention to detail.

1911 over the Glock...... for the moment, simple logistics. I make tons of 1911 rigs, as well as glock, hk, Sig. You have to start somewhere though. This is one of the reasons I am presenting the situation to the forum for feedback. I am certainly not above changing my mind based on what I hear from all of you ;)

Maybe I just hang out with a bunch of cheapskates, but I know very few people who buy based on quality. Of the half-dozen guys I shoot on a regular basis with, only 1 person would buy a setup based on the quality of it compared to the price....and a lot of that has to do with the fact that not everyone knows what real quality can & should feel like.

I'm not trying to dissuade or be a negative, but I don't want to see you spend time & money on a product that won't create a worthwhile return for you. Unless you're looking to hire some young(read this as cheap) help and teach them the ways of leather working by creating an affordable COTS product, then rock and roll. :)

[RevolverRob]

It might even be worthwhile to consider selling some via amazon (at least temporarily) to get a foothold in a different market and have the reviews available for those who do not visit boards like this one. Just a thought.

This. Who will know where to get your production holsters and how to get them? Distribution is to the advantage of the big companies, simply because they have established distribution networks. It's not enough to make a quality product it has to get into the hands of the end users you want it to get into. Which is the next big question for you.

Given the now well established reputation of kydex - why pay $85 for a leather pancake holster when a plastic one from Comp-Tac/Blade-Tech can be had for less money? I know the answer, because 1911s go in leather, not plastic. But I worry, seriously, about the potential market for even semi-production holsters. The bottom line is, I've found guys who are willing to shell out $85 for a Galco are willing to shell out $100+ for custom leather. Whereas guys who won't spend that money, will just get a cheap belt-slide for $25 and call it a day.

I guess what I'm saying here is...the price point you're at + the distribution potential would make me be very cautious in terms of investment. There is a solid market for a well-made holsters at $35-50 range. And a solid market for custom holsters in the $100+ range. I'm less clear on the market at $50-100. I slung guns across glass for a living and did purchasing for a big national chain (in guns and accoutrements). I never worried about selling out of Galco/Bianchi/DeSantis holsters, they didn't sell fast, ever. Stores typically carried 2xEach of RH/LH pancakes for 1911s/Glocks and RH/LH IWB for same, priced right about 60 bucks/each. A store was GOOD if it sold all four RHs in a quarter. It was GREAT if it sold them in a month. Much more likely to sell fast were Blackhawk Derpas at $35 and Uncle Mike's Sausage Sacks at $10-15.

If you're looking to expand your business model. You might go the slightly the opposite way. Build a run of bare-bones horsehide models (your signature leather) for you three most popular models (probably 1911, Glock, and something else?). And "stock" them. This way, people anxious for custom leather, but who don't want to wait or can't wait, can get into your products more quickly and at a (presumably) lower-end price.

I also don't meant to be negative. I admire your talent and leatherwork. I want to see you succeed, so when I have more disposable income I can buy some righteously good leather from you. I'd hate to see you struggle or lose time/money on a bad investment. Margins are thin in the holster making world and I've seen a shop or two close up, because of a risky venture. If you do go for it, I admire and support you! Just offering a cautionary perspective.

-Rob

[JRCHolsters]

Great advise from all so far. On a distribution level, I really have no intention to sell in stores, save for a few I personally have business with already. My intention is to offer it directly from my site. I get a large amount of traffic and inquiries as well as business. Based on interactions with all of these people, I feel as though there are some that would "pull the trigger" faster for something on the shelf at a mid-high price point. Of course, I could be totally wrong.... wouldn't be the first time, lol. Even if it flops, it will be short run to begin with and any process/equipment will be useful in my custom business, so no worries there.

One of the reasons I won't do more economical horsehide holsters is multifold. Hides of decent quality are harder to get, with longer wait times. The #2 hides that you see available from internet leather sales companies have gotten pretty poor in quality over the last 5 years, though they still aren't cheap. When my shipment comes in from the tannery, I have to take quite a bit of time sorting. Just not conducive to making an inexpensive holster I would be willing to put my name on.

So, all that said... thoughts on pistol/holster models? rake angles etc?

[RevolverRob]

So, all that said... thoughts on pistol/holster models? rake angles etc?

AIWB-CDA II for a DE .50 trimmed with the skin of my freshly crushed enemies? ;)

__

Pancake and Summer Special type IWB - straight drop/5-degree forward rake - 1911, Glock 17/Glock 19, Sig P320, M&P(??). I want to say HK P30, because P30 owner here, but not sure it makes logistical sense. Also the standard P30 does poorly in a SS-type holster, same problem its older sibling the P7 has...a fat butt and a short snout (though it is noticeably better than a P7).

It'd be COOL if someone made a rough-side out IWB 1911 holster that didn't cost an arm and a leg. I mean, I don't have a 1911 anymore...but ya know that could change.

[psalms144.1]

Just some random thoughts. I'm one of those guys that will pay more for quality, ESPECIALLY on a "high end" item like a nice leather holster. I agree that the quality of leather used in Desantis and Galco have dropped a lot in the last decade. I had a circa 2000 Desantis Speed Scabbard for a P228 that lasted through six years of daily carry in hot/humid environments and three extended deployments to combat zones. It didn't look pretty at the end of that, but it still held the pistol just where I wanted and gave a near perfect combination of retention and draw speed. More recent production examples, unfortunately, have been so shoddy that I neither buy them nor recommend them anymore. Likewise GALCO - their one size fits none approach to a lot of their holsters just turns me off anyway.

I think your direct competition would be the Mitch Rosen Express line, and you're pricing looks on target there.

I wouldn't start with the 1911, personally, rather the Glock. I think you need to start with something that's going to sell in some volume, and, frankly, Glock is probably a better starting point for that.

I like the idea of an Amazon start, but, I buy everything off Amazon...

[Erik]

I would bet that a ready-made version of the Watson Special at this price point for popular models would do well.

[JRCHolsters]

Based on feedback here and a couple of phone calls from members, I am going to alter my initial thoughts and go with a G17/19 holster. I am still plenty open to thoughts.

[farscott]

I am probably a minority in this, but I really prefer horsehide for IWB holsters as I find horsehide fares better in the humid summers in terms of moisture absorption compared to cowhide. As such, I would still buy custom, incurring the bigger cost and longer wait. I guess Mitch Rosen would say that I "have been successfully marketed to" the virtues of horsehide.

[JHC]

Just some random thoughts. I'm one of those guys that will pay more for quality, ESPECIALLY on a "high end" item like a nice leather holster. I agree that the quality of leather used in Desantis and Galco have dropped a lot in the last decade. I had a circa 2000 Desantis Speed Scabbard for a P228 that lasted through six years of daily carry in hot/humid environments and three extended deployments to combat zones. It didn't look pretty at the end of that, but it still held the pistol just where I wanted and gave a near perfect combination of retention and draw speed. More recent production examples, unfortunately, have been so shoddy that I neither buy them nor recommend them anymore. Likewise GALCO - their one size fits none approach to a lot of their holsters just turns me off anyway.

I think your direct competition would be the Mitch Rosen Express line, and you're pricing looks on target there.

I wouldn't start with the 1911, personally, rather the Glock. I think you need to start with something that's going to sell in some volume, and, frankly, Glock is probably a better starting point for that.

I like the idea of an Amazon start, but, I buy everything off Amazon...

Holy cow, I recently bit at the promotion for Sparks Summer Specials in stock and ready to ship for about $100 from their FB page and Brownells. My 1911 SS I bought in the early '80's is awesome and still going strong. What I got; I returned to Brownells immediately. It was a hard shell, nearly as hard as kydex. It may have been leather but didn't feel like it to me. Maybe that's just how they are now, it was the SS II I guess. Not my cup of tea for leather though.

[Shoresy]

Holy cow, I recently bit at the promotion for Sparks Summer Specials in stock and ready to ship for about $100 from their FB page and Brownells. My 1911 SS I bought in the early '80's is awesome and still going strong. What I got; I returned to Brownells immediately. It was a hard shell, nearly as hard as kydex. It may have been leather but didn't feel like it to me. Maybe that's just how they are now, it was the SS II I guess. Not my cup of tea for leather though.

I had a similar experience with a Kramer Summer Special copy. Unit bought some pre-deployment and I don't think anyone used them. To make matters worse, they didn't actually fit the pistol... at all. They were clearly meant to (ie didn't get the wrong holster for the pistol); they just did a terrible job at accomplishing it.

FWIW, I think starting with Glock is generally the smart way to go by accessing a huge part of the market, but it's also a two-edged sword... with possibly every other holster maker producing Glock holsters, what makes yours stand out? And what will you do to communicate that? (rhetorically, but a question your customers will be asking as they look at your products, and one they'll need to answer before purchasing) My experiences are very close to those jwperry expressed in post #7.

What product do you currently create that you wish you could reduce cost/price and turnaround time on? What do you currently see the highest demand for?

[Crawls]

I agree with the Glock 17 strategy. I'd buy one in a plain, unadorned, brown horsehide, 15-25* cant, IWB or OWB.

[Qaz98]

Based on feedback here and a couple of phone calls from members, I am going to alter my initial thoughts and go with a G17/19 holster. I am still plenty open to thoughts.

Of course, I'm getting lambasted on the other thread for using Stealthgear - and checked out your site. I think someone made a great point, why pay $109, when you can get a JRC for a few bucks more. JRC? Huh, never thought of it. I checked out your site and now I'm drooling. Even having never handled one, I can tell it's a completely different product than a Galco or other leather holsters. I for one, would seriously consider a production G19 holster. Would you customize it with an XC1? Having said that, it's no longer my primary EDC. Do you care if I PM you on your thoughts/advice?

Thanks.

Yet another p-f post making me want to spend money.:p

[psalms144.1]

Holy cow, I recently bit at the promotion for Sparks Summer Specials in stock and ready to ship for about $100 from their FB page and Brownells. My 1911 SS I bought in the early '80's is awesome and still going strong. What I got; I returned to Brownells immediately. It was a hard shell, nearly as hard as kydex. It may have been leather but didn't feel like it to me. Maybe that's just how they are now, it was the SS II I guess. Not my cup of tea for leather though.My normal wear holster is an Alessi CQC for the G19, which I bought before Lou's demise. In around 2012 I bought a CQC for the P30, and it's made out of such soft, floppy leather it might as well be suede. I guess the various makers are having a bunch of problems with leather supply.

In the case of the Alessi, it was particularly galling, based on the price I paid. I should have sent it back, but I had to have a holster RIGHT THEN for a trip followed by a course, so I just kept it.

Back to the original concept - I agree with the Glocks as a starting point. Many have mentioned they'd prefer an IWB or AIWB option - might be worth listening to the chorus. Also, for OWB, 25 degrees seems like a pretty severe cant - I'm assuming it's designed to be worn with the complete pistol behind the point of the hip? A 5-10 degree cant rides very nicely OWB justbehind the point of the hip...

[Paladin]

I agree 25 cant is pretty severe 5 to 10 would be a better starting point in my humble opinion.
Rick

[JAD]

I will continue to buy your custom products in preference to anything off the shelf. If I need a holster right now there is usually something regrettable out there on the market, but I'd still replace it down the road even if it was a pretty good piece of vacuum formed leather.


So, having established that I'm not a potential customer for the line, I would ask you what my PLMs have always asked me when I wanted a new line: what void will it fill?

Current off the shelf leather holsters from Galco and DeSantis are crap and are usually blatant copies of talented workers' efforts. I am apparently the only person on earth who is bothered by that, so it's just a question of crappy.

I'm quite sure you would make a better holster than Galco. Who will perceive that?

You plan to capture, I think, demand that is currently coming to your attention through your site, that is escaping due to lead time. That makes sense to me. I am not sure how much of your core business you will cannibalize, but I hunch it's not a ton.

How many people are going to be like the poster above who says "I want it just like that but customized for my WML... wait, that's 16 weeks? Well, I'd prefer that it be horsehide rather than cowhide... wait, that's just the stuff that you already sell for slightly higher and a lot longer?"

I'm not trying to discourage you, but try to picture your potential customer and think about getting him all the way through the sales process.

As far as model / fit, I understand the guys who are saying Glock, and depending on your potential customer that might make sense. I would say there are a lot of 1911s in the world and not a lot of good off the shelf holsters, certainly fewer than Glock. More extremely, you could choose to be the only guy who has an off the shelf P320 holster; I honestly think that's going to be a very active market and you would have a chance to beat the rush a little. Just a weird thought. There are probably too many P320s in the world.

Rake would depend on gun. A big ass gun like the G17 or GM would be 20-25. Commander / G19 15, wee guns 10 or less.

[JustOneGun]

Some thoughts from a Glock/kydex guy. First I see some 1911 shooters just like some cowboy hats, there's custom made purty holsters and then there's around town holsters. I can see a small market of repeat customers buying a lower priced town holster for their town 1911. I also see a lot of revolver people using leather. So perhaps they might be in the same boat as the 1911 people.

As for a Glock person that just doesn't apply. If you have a purdy Glock, well that's just wrong.

As a Glock person I might be persuaded to get a work or around the house holster in leather. i.e. I normally wear kydex AIWB and will continue to do it but I would buy a lower priced leather holster for my hip when I am doing, X. Where X might be yardwork, driving distance or whatever a person's body type might not make wearing a certain holster comfortable. For me I would only be persuaded to buy an OWB holster because AIWB might be uncomfortable.

And I will end on a question: I've only used cheap leather holsters (Galco) about 20 years ago. I found them harder to draw consistently/not very forgiving on a draw that has a bit of twist to it. Is that true of a well made leather holster? I ask because if the normal plus for kydex isn't true for a well made holster then that might be a good marketing approach to get some of us kydexers to give leather another try?

[Duces Tecum]

I'm thinking something else, but I may be entirely wrong. You know where your delete key is.

The mass consumer market is where the low cost provider thrives. People make a living there, but it's a Darwinian environment where everybody is racing to the retail price bottom. Is that really where you want to be?

Perhaps the issue is not the breadth of your product line. Perhaps it's that a lot of the potential market simply hasn't heard of JRC. A couple of years ago someone wrote on PF a very complimentary post about JM Custom Kydex holsters. Subsequently, a few people bought and added their satisfaction to the original thread. Then it grew. JMCK has since expanded both his operations and his product line. People have said wonderful things about Keepers holsters, Dark Star, and others but that one ever-growing thread has helped JMCK to prosper. There's a point here, Jim. People have to know who you are and what you do.

It may be time to hire a publicist. Get your name out there. If you want to stay with holsters, arrange for people who already have a reputation in the tactical arena to endorse your products. You've heard of Kim Kardashian's arrangement with Dos Amigos tequila. Offer a complimentary holster / belt / mag carrier combo to the winner of major pistol competitions. Have a monthly "Leather" column (even if ghost written under your name) in an enthusiast magazine, perhaps an on-line edition of one of the NRA's publications. Maybe "Shooting Illustrated" is available on line. You must know that Bill Bagwell's columns in SOF magazine moved him from "Bill who?" to having a waiting list. He was astonished at the prices he could then charge. He once told me, "If people knew how little time it takes to make a knife, I don't know if they'd pay the same money". And what about family-owned Bree Handbags? They went from an undistinguished Canadian purse importer to a name brand with high-end stores scattered across the USA before imploding due to management differences.

Good publicists don't always come as cheaply as one would hope, but if it were me I would still insist on a person with documented success in marketing specialized products. It doesn't have to be leather, just something specialized.

Like advertising, half of everything a publicist does is ineffectual, but which half is unknown. So (if it were me) I would insist on publicist compensation being a small percentage of gross income as reported on my business tax return. Such-and-such percentage of the YTD change. In that way you would pay not by the hour, but by results. And you also don't pay this year for the gain in previous years.

You might consider splitting off (if you haven't already) your gentleman's accessories line and placing it with a second publicist, under a similar compensation schedule. In my mind this is where the money is. A lot more people carry luggage / purses / briefcases than holsters. There is also a difference in product pricing. The retail price for a Hermes Matt Crocodile Birkin bag is $120,000, when you can find them. One bag, Jim.

Now it's time to let the public know through third parties. Third party accolades always have more impact than "I'm great" tweets. Expand your vision. Get others to wing-man you. Keep the faith.

[JRCHolsters]

This is why I love the forum so much. Lot's of interesting viewpoints. Most of what has been said here has crossed my mind.... many times over.
A couple of thoughts to touch bases on a few things, as it would take forever to answer every one.

The 25 degree rake is based purely on orders. It seems steep, but is the most common rake picked by customers choosing this type of holster. I would be open to a lesser degree to satisfy those that may lean that way. Just have to start somewhere.

I really don't feel the need to go find customers and explain why mine is better than theirs(Galco, Desantis, etc). It's more of situation of providing to those that are already visiting my site and possibly sitting on the fence.

Any equipment I buy or build will of course help me in my regular custom work.

Not sure I want to expand my custom work to the point that the shop becomes a "Milt Sparks" type of set up. Though wouldn't rule it out.

Models of guns... Lots of good suggestions and gives me some thoughts into tapping a couple of markets.. including lefties.

Expensive leather goods like high end cases.. Already working on that and as a separate entity.

I appreciate all the thoughts and it gives me a lot to mill around in my nugget.

[TGS]

Ensure that your new G19/G17 holster is compatible with the new Glock M models, and mark it as such.

I don't think you're necessarily on the verge of perfecting mass-market Chocolate bars circa 1900, but I do have a feeling that there's quite a few cops over the next year who are about to get pissed off that their previous off-duty/plainclothes holsters will not fit their new service weapon. Depending on scale and where you are selling this may be a non-issue, but it's something I thought should be done regardless.

[GAP]

If it were me, I'd stock my 3-5 most popular products at the same price, with the same quality as your long lead time holsters.

There are many marketing strategies, but a fine leather maker (in my opinion) should choose what's called prestige pricing. The moment you introduce an "economy-line" your entire image suffers to those who are willing to pay top dollar for the best money can buy.

Mass production and distribution is an entirely different strategy, but I don't assume that's your goal.

Imagine if Louis Vuitton sold a line at Wal-Mart?