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martin_j001
03-19-2017, 09:45 AM
So lately I've noticed I'll have several rounds in a batch fail at the case gauge check. The rim of the case will sit just above flush. Many of these will still fall into a Glock barrel without too much issue, but some will hang it just out of battery. I haven't made any changes that I remember recently on my 650 other than the powder charge (as I went from 147gr to 124gr). Any suggestions as to what to check or where to start? Thanks all!

Jim Watson
03-19-2017, 09:50 AM
Sounds like you made a big change... the bullet.
How much full diameter bearing surface do you now have showing in front of the case mouth?
What is the bullet diameter?
Versus previous bullet?

martin_j001
03-19-2017, 09:57 AM
Sounds like you made a big change... the bullet.
How much full diameter bearing surface do you now have showing in front of the case mouth?
What is the bullet diameter?
Versus previous bullet?

True, I guess I didn't think of that as that much of a change, at least not to the press. I went from the 147gr Blue Bullet to the 125gr Blue Bullet, so I'd think bullet diameter should be the same, but that could be incorrect. I'd have to get back home and look at my OAL settings for the two different loads and measure the bullet diameters and report back to you.

JCS
03-19-2017, 10:10 AM
I had these issues recently and it was crimp related. What's your crimp? I also switched from the Dillon crimp die to a Lee fcd and my failure rate is very low now.


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Jim Watson
03-19-2017, 10:14 AM
Well, yes, I would assume the same brand were all sized the same diameter.
And the Blue Bullet 125 gr RN nose profile looks similar to 147/150 RN.
But I think the first step is to tinker with seating depth. A shorter OAL would get the bullet off the lands... if that is the hangup. You would then need to reduce the powder charge to keep from boosting pressure and velocity. I just ran into that with a change in source for hollowpoints.

ranger
03-19-2017, 10:59 AM
What 9mm sizing die are you using? Do you pick up brass at a site that has USPSA Open shooters - in other words, any chance of finding 9mm brass loaded to Major power factor? Finally, there is a 9mm brass supplier that has a "stepped" brass internally that sometimes causes a bulge while reloading.

GuanoLoco
03-19-2017, 12:13 PM
Most everything has an effect - brass headstamp, brass condition, sizing die, bullet, seating depth & crimp.

A full length sizing die set all the way to the shell place can be helpful, e.g. A Lee Die or a Lee U-Die (hard on the arms though).

I little One Shot case lube can help some softer cases size down vs squash out with a bulge during resizing.

Glock chambers are pretty forgiving. I try to keep (Hundo) case gauge failures to about 5% or less and simply segregate CG failures for use as practice ammo where I don't care as much af a round doesn't fully go in to battery. Most will still work in my experience.

There is often a strong correlation between some but not all head stamps that fail. Take all your case gauge failures and sort them by head stamp - I bet you will see patterns. You can also sort by severity of CG failure (sticks way up, sticks a little up, can be forced to flush or below but doesn't fall out freely) and test in your gun.

5pins
03-19-2017, 06:00 PM
Sounds like you need to seat you bullet a little deeper.

LittleLebowski
03-19-2017, 06:01 PM
Get back to us on COAL.

Welder
03-19-2017, 08:06 PM
I would be checking for bulged cases from oversized or too deeply-seated bullets, and I'd be checking my case mouths for crimp issues.

It's possible you've got some cases that are on the really short side and you set your (taper?) crimp die using cases that were on the long side. If so, you might not be getting a full crimp on the short cases. Hopefully you saved the ammo that wouldn't feed so you can take measurements and figure out what's different.

I set my taper crimp die to just remove the flare on short cases. You don't want to be squashing the bullet or anything like that, just straightening the case wall.

Just MHO.

GuanoLoco
03-19-2017, 10:11 PM
Measurements are good for te taper crimp die. I figure bullet diameter of 0.356 + 2 x case mouth thicknes of 0.011-0.012 = about 0.379".

Somethign else to consider - a light bullet seated long vs. a heavy bullet seated short will result in very different bulges in a tapered 9mm case.

Also, drop the case into the hundo upside down. This can tell you if the problem is neat the case mouth or the case head.

martin_j001
03-20-2017, 09:28 AM
Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions, once I get back home I will look into getting some answers on some of these questions. Pretty sure I need to go ahead and pick up a hundo case gauge to make life easier for myself--the one at a time stuff is time consuming for sure.

txdpd
03-20-2017, 11:06 AM
Check you're bullet diameter, if your new bullets are .359" instead of .356" then you're going to have to go to extreme measures to get it pass a case gauge and still be out of spec. Also check case OAL.

Make sure you case gauge is really clean, a little half wafer of powder hiding in there can throw a wrench in the works.

I'd start by checking cases at each step in the process starting with fired and unsized case. Then check after resizing, belling the case mouth, seating and crimping. That'd be with cases in all positions. Hopefully you can find the spot where things go south, and it's something easy to fix and not a tolerance stack of little things. If your machine is indexing incorrectly and bending cases at the sizing die, then looking at the seating depth is a step in the wrong direction.

Peally
03-20-2017, 11:56 AM
http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/

Cover a failure in marker, stick it in the barrel, twist it a little. The wear marks will give you clues.

martin_j001
03-22-2017, 08:18 AM
Thanks once again everyone, really appreciate all the replies and things to look into.

Bullets (both 147gr and 125gr) measure 0.355" as expected.

Brass is all range pickups, mostly my own, but definitely a chance some is from those shooting major or something. And definitely mixed headstamps too--I'll start trying to keep track of where I see issues and if it's with particular markings.

So the 147gr were loaded to 1.125" OAL while the recipe I found for the 125's was 1.135" OAL. So I'll definitely dial that back and bit and give that a try--that may be my issue. I'll dial the powder charge back a tenth of a grain or so as well, although they didn't feel particularly "spicy" when I tested them. (load will be 125gr Blue Bullet, 1.125" OAL, 3.9gr HP38)

I'm running the Mr. BulletFeeder powder drop die as the coated bullets seem to do much better with the shape of bell it gives the case versus the factory powder drop die, but all others are Dillon factory at this time...I've been reading some about the "U-dies" and full length sizing dies--I assume those are different than the sizing/decapping die that came with my 650? I'll double check that die too to make sure that it's contacting the shell plate.

I'll also check my crimp...I think I measured some to be around 0.381" that I had issues with, so that could be part of the problem too. I'll see if I can get that back to around 0.380" or 0.379" and still not damage the coating on the bullets.

I'll try to check the other things folks mentioned too, and reply back when I get a chance to check things. Thanks once again, the help and suggestions are very much appreciated!

LittleLebowski
03-22-2017, 08:26 AM
I don't think that COAL on your 147s is the issue; I load to 1.33 on mine. I crimp mine to about 0.37, I'd dial your crimp down just a little if I were you.

I think your problem is your taper crimp. Have you started from scratch and followed the directions on using it?

JCS
03-22-2017, 08:33 AM
I had the same issue. My crimp was .380-.381 when I set up my dies. I dialed it down to .376 and they pass 99% now.

Also, I've found that I have to clean out my case gauge. I just run a chamber brush through it. For whatever reason rounds that fail the case gauge will often pass after I clean out the inside of the case gauge.


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GuanoLoco
03-22-2017, 09:01 AM
I had the same issue. My crimp was .380-.381 when I set up my dies. I dialed it down to .376 and they pass 99% now.

Also, I've found that I have to clean out my case gauge. I just run a chamber brush through it. For whatever reason rounds that fail the case gauge will often pass after I clean out the inside of the case gauge.


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I am sure it passes the case gauge test more easily but I am pretty sure you are slightly over crimping at 0.356". Just add up the diameter of the coated blood plus the diameter of twice the thickness of the brass at the case mouth. That is my effective minimum.

LittleLebowski
03-22-2017, 12:59 PM
I am sure it passes the case gauge test more easily but I am pretty sure you are slightly over crimping at 0.356". Just add up the diameter of the coated blood plus the diameter of twice the thickness of the brass at the case mouth. That is my effective minimum.

Think you misread that, GL. He said .376

GuanoLoco
03-22-2017, 04:18 PM
Think you misread that, GL. He said .376

Thanks. I meant .376, still seems tight to me. Tried to respond when I didn't really have time.

LittleLebowski
03-22-2017, 07:23 PM
Thanks. I meant .376, still seems tight to me. Tried to respond when I didn't really have time.

No worries, you think that's too tight, then? I'm at 0.37-ish.

GuanoLoco
03-22-2017, 07:30 PM
No worries, you think that's too tight, then? I'm at 0.37-ish.

I don't want to compress the lead or damage the polymer coating. Do the math. If your calipers show the diameter of a 9mm boolit is 0.356" (maybe 0.355) and that the thickness of the end of the case mouth where you will be taper crimping is 0.011" or maybe 0.012", then add it up. Even at the smallest values:

0.355 + 0.011 + 0.011 = 0.377"

If I use the larger values:

0.356 + 0.012 + 0.012 = 0.380"

I target 0.379", don't see any point in going smaller and overcrimping can cause other issues like tumbling, leading, etc. Not saying these things will happen with a few thousandths more taper crimp, but I don't see an upside either.

martin_j001
03-23-2017, 05:28 AM
Pretty sure I've got the crimp die set up right--just enough to remove any last bit of flare, not enough to really crimp anything.

I'll pull some rounds out tonight and measure the crimp, as well as clean out my case gauge. If I find a few that won't pass the case gauge I'll try a touch tighter on the crimp and see what happens.

LittleLebowski
03-23-2017, 07:50 AM
I don't want to compress the lead or damage the polymer coating. Do the math. If your calipers show the diameter of a 9mm boolit is 0.356" (maybe 0.355) and that the thickness of the end of the case mouth where you will be taper crimping is 0.011" or maybe 0.012", then add it up. Even at the smallest values:

0.355 + 0.011 + 0.011 = 0.377"

If I use the larger values:

0.356 + 0.012 + 0.012 = 0.380"

I target 0.379", don't see any point in going smaller and overcrimping can cause other issues like tumbling, leading, etc. Not saying these things will happen with a few thousandths more taper crimp, but I don't see an upside either.

Awesome and thank you. I'll bump mine up one RCH.

GuanoLoco
03-23-2017, 08:47 AM
Pretty sure I've got the crimp die set up right--just enough to remove any last bit of flare, not enough to really crimp anything.

I'll pull some rounds out tonight and measure the crimp, as well as clean out my case gauge. If I find a few that won't pass the case gauge I'll try a touch tighter on the crimp and see what happens.

What % of cases are failing CG? If it is acceptably small then just segregate failures and shoot in a form of practice where you can tolerate *possible* faiure to go into battery. The ones that pass go in to the match or practice bins when I will be shooting longer strings that I don't want interrupted with failures. Some guns (chambers, recoil springs, etc.) are more tolerant than others.

At <= 5% this is an easy decision for me. I'd like it lower but know my mixed brass has a lot of issues.

At >10% I start looking for incremental process improvements. I have seen cases where more cartridges failed than passed.

martin_j001
03-23-2017, 09:35 AM
What % of cases are failing CG? If it is acceptably small then just segregate failures and shoot in a form of practice where you can tolerate *possible* faiure to go into battery. The ones that pass go in to the match or practice bins when I will be shooting longer strings that I don't want interrupted with failures. Some guns (chambers, recoil springs, etc.) are more tolerant than others.

At <= 5% this is an easy decision for me. I'd like it lower but know my mixed brass has a lot of issues.

At >10% I start looking for incremental process improvements. I have seen cases where more cartridges failed than passed.

I'll have to load some more with the new bullets before I can give an accurate number, I only ran 1-200 through it so far and didn't pay enough attention to state anything for sure.

BN
03-23-2017, 11:33 AM
I run range pick up brass in my Glocks. If I chamber gauge them I get 5 or 10 out of 100 that don't pass. Most will just not quite go down flush in the chamber gauge. I put them in the practice box and they usually run just fine. I think a lot of times the head is so beat up from being shot a bunch of times that they are swollen. Try putting them in the CG upside down and see how far they go.

Like others, I'll bet your crimp is the culprit.

EMC
03-23-2017, 01:06 PM
I have seen this on one or two rounds per 100 commonly with 9mm range pickup brass. Since 9mm headspaces off the case mouth, my theory is that it is simply a matter of a few over length brass in the bunch. I segregate them and they typically work just fine in my glocks.

GuanoLoco
03-23-2017, 01:40 PM
I find you can usually force the case further into the case gauge where it may or may not be flush and where it will stick and not fall freely out.

The idea of stretched 9mm brass is possible but I don't think it is the most common reason for case gauge failure.

Causes are numerous and include:

Bulges at the base of soft cases which have been squashed down vs. compressed in during resizing
Case bulges from not quite straight bullet insertion, or deeply seated bullets and a tapered case design
Bulges from less than fully supported chambers - might be mitigated by using a full length resizing die
Damaged case heads from guns that are rough on brass
Mysteries...

martin_j001
03-24-2017, 07:19 PM
Had a few rounds today that failed to go into battery when I was shooting today... they all failed the case gauge as well (obviously). They measured over 0.381" at the crimp (one was up around 0.386", I remember one round making it out without getting to the crimp station..found it!). I ran them through the crimp station again, and they came out at .380 or .381, and all passed the case gauge at that point. The OAL on all three was between 1.135 and 1.140". I'm going to dial the crimp down a touch more, try to get it to around 0.379, and see if I can get them a touch closer to 1.135".

GuanoLoco
03-25-2017, 07:02 AM
I shot about 300 rounds yesterday of case gauge failures from my latest batches of maybe 3000+ rounds, looks like 10%. This included failures from 1000 loaded with an experimental powder funnel that crimped very stranglely and 2000 loaded with a Mr. Bullet Feeder powder funnel. I was running about a 5% failure rate with the last 2000. There were probably other CG failures from earlier runs in there as well.

About 7 rounds would not go into battery on a pair of Gen 3 Glock 19's and were difficult to remove. I had to hold the slide in my weak hand and strike the grip with my strong hand to get the round to extract. With my Tanfo Stock 2 in past sessions shooting CG failures I might get a round to two that won't go into battery.

5pins
03-26-2017, 05:39 PM
http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/

martin_j001
03-27-2017, 04:09 AM
Thanks once again for the help and suggestions all.

Finally got a chance to look at things a little bit closer last night once again, as I've got to load a thousand or so this week for a class this coming weekend. Basically went back to basics and went through my manual for setting up the press. Noticed my sizing/decapper die was a little higher then recommended, so got that lowered down a bit. Before my match yesterday, I ran a couple hundred through the case gauge and had many that wouldn't just fall right in (hard to say a number, but it was quite a few). Of those that didn't fall in flush, many had a crimp measuring around .383-.384, so I ran through the crimp die set down to around .380. At that point, I'd say about 90% of the previous failures now passed. At .380, I get a ring around where the crimp is in the coating on the bullet, but it doesn't go down to bare lead, so I think I'm fine there. No ammo related issues at the match, so that was good. I will be using the marker and plunk test (with barrel or case gauge) on the ammo that didn't pass after being re-crimped eventually to see where the issue lies.

Now to change out powder, double check all settings when all stations are full, and load a bunch of ammo. If my hundo shows up this week, I may have a chance to run it all through a gauge and report/record numbers, I don't relish the idea of checking all of it with a single case gauge, but we'll see how it goes.

GuanoLoco
03-27-2017, 08:32 AM
I thought I posted this but maybe it as another thead. I am down to about .378 on a Dillon Taper Crimp die after using a Mr. Bullet Feeder powder/belling die. I think I bell to 0.389" from memory. Still gettting CG failures but manageable.

martin_j001
03-27-2017, 09:09 AM
I thought I posted this but maybe it as another thead. I am down to about .378 on a Dillon Taper Crimp die after using a Mr. Bullet Feeder powder/belling die. I think I bell to 0.389" from memory. Still gettting CG failures but manageable.

I'd have to try it, but pretty sure I'd be getting close to bare lead on the Blue Bullets. Correct me if I'm wrong--seeing a slight ring on coated bullets is OK, but getting to bare lead can be problematic. Is that right? I experienced some slight issues with that as I got set up, but it was more related to scraping the coating off while seating (before I switched to the Mr. Bulletfeeder powder die).

GuanoLoco
03-27-2017, 10:41 AM
I'd have to try it, but pretty sure I'd be getting close to bare lead on the Blue Bullets. Correct me if I'm wrong--seeing a slight ring on coated bullets is OK, but getting to bare lead can be problematic. Is that right? I experienced some slight issues with that as I got set up, but it was more related to scraping the coating off while seating (before I switched to the Mr. Bulletfeeder powder die).

The coating is pretty durable/flexible but you definitely don't want to break it or you risk leading.

BN
03-27-2017, 07:28 PM
If you crimp too much, you can create a bulge just below the crimp.

martin_j001
03-28-2017, 05:21 AM
Loaded up just over 200 rounds last night of the new "recipe" (125gr Blue Bullet, 3.7gr Titegroup, 1.125" OAL, 0.380" crimp). Set everything station by station, then tweaked with all stations full. I tested at least 50 rounds in the case gauge and found 1 that failed (rim just above flush)--slight bulge near the bottom, all the way around. Pulled several along the way checking for damage to the coating, or too deep of a ring/groove from crimp and all looked good (belling/flaring up to about 0.395", crimp down to 0.380"). Going to test out a few today, and assuming that goes well will load up what I need for class this weekend. :)

JCS
03-28-2017, 06:28 AM
Loaded up just over 200 rounds last night of the new "recipe" (125gr Blue Bullet, 3.7gr Titegroup, 1.125" OAL, 0.380" crimp). Set everything station by station, then tweaked with all stations full. I tested at least 50 rounds in the case gauge and found 1 that failed (rim just above flush)--slight bulge near the bottom, all the way around. Pulled several along the way checking for damage to the coating, or too deep of a ring/groove from crimp and all looked good (belling/flaring up to about 0.395", crimp down to 0.380"). Going to test out a few today, and assuming that goes well will load up what I need for class this weekend. :)

Is that the best way to check for over-crimp: pulling bullets?


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GuanoLoco
03-28-2017, 08:02 AM
Is that the best way to check for over-crimp: pulling bullets?


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I suppose but PITA. I usually rely on math and calipers. A good while back I used to check bullets shot into a rubber mulch trap but PITA.

EMC
04-01-2017, 08:49 PM
So I think I made a breakthrough discovery on this issue related to my reloads at least. What I found was that the few that are failing case gauge right at the rim have very small almost imperceptible deformations on the outside edge of the case rim from prior extraction. The deformation is small enough that on some I can force them into the gauge and it flattens the flawed area enough to go in. To verify this I took one with the issue and lightly sanded the edge of the rim where the issue was and it fit fine in the gauge.

Something to check on those that aren't sizing or crimp related.

GuanoLoco
04-01-2017, 09:35 PM
I don't generally mess with this for 9mm but for 223 I have salvaged many a case with similar issues using some rough sandpaper or a hand file.

martin_j001
04-09-2017, 09:08 AM
Update. I loaded some rounds last week and didn't get much time to shoot them and or QC them. My hundo arrived late last week, and after getting a chance to shoot a few rounds and verify the load worked as expected, I loaded up a couple hundred more. I QC'd a total of 347 rounds. 5 needed a good push to come out of the hundo, everything else flopped out easily flipping it upside down or took a touch of the fingertip and no pressure. I should have picked up a hundo a long time ago...

ETA: I'm definitely liking happy with the new brass cleaning setup--no stainless pins, and using the Armor All Wash and Wax. No case line needed at all. :)

GuanoLoco
04-09-2017, 10:24 AM
A little One Shot will reduce reduce te effort required to re-size, even with the wash-n-wax. It also acts as an anti-tarnish and causes the cases to get gunky and pick up grime if over-used.

A little more lube helps softer cases from getting vertically squashed down vs. horizontally sized down in the re-sizing process.

Redhat
04-09-2017, 10:46 AM
This may be a dumb question but is there a way to gauge the resized cases before putting a bullet in and crimping?

RJ
11-08-2017, 03:24 PM
Noob question: what kind of case gauge do you guys use?

Is this one a decent option for 9mm?

9mm Case & Ammunition Gauge - For Checking Your Reloads & Ammo https://www.amazon.com/dp/B012P0BP42/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_QE2aAbYP6HMB5

Peally
11-08-2017, 03:40 PM
Anything other than a hundo isn't even worth doing unless it's a one off (which you can just use a pistol barrel for).

Artemas2
11-08-2017, 04:02 PM
I just picked a EGW 7 hole checker and have been happy with it. Saves from having to tear apart a gun until I have money for a hundo.

RJ
11-08-2017, 05:46 PM
Anything other than a hundo isn't even worth doing unless it's a one off (which you can just use a pistol barrel for).

Damn. $100.

Eh I dunno. I’ve been lining up random cartridges from the same box and playing the ‘do any of these not look like the rest’ trick.

I don’t shoot 000’s of reloads so I think I’ll be ok. Thanks for the info guys.

Peally
11-08-2017, 05:52 PM
I used to do that. Now I just look at all the primers when they're in the plastic case to make sure they'll all go off.

Lomshek
11-10-2017, 12:09 AM
I used to do that. Now I just look at all the primers when they're in the plastic case to make sure they'll all go off.

Same here. I lube my pistol cases so sizing is silky smooth and never short stroke the handle. Once I make sure everything is coming out the way I like it it's not changing unless the dies comes loose.

I might spot check one every few hundred rounds and always eyeball the rounds as I place them in my ammo boxes for unique ones but that's it. No need to mic or gauge every round.

Hambo
11-10-2017, 10:39 AM
I shot about 300 rounds yesterday of case gauge failures from my latest batches of maybe 3000+ rounds, looks like 10%. This included failures from 1000 loaded with an experimental powder funnel that crimped very stranglely and 2000 loaded with a Mr. Bullet Feeder powder funnel. I was running about a 5% failure rate with the last 2000. There were probably other CG failures from earlier runs in there as well.

About 7 rounds would not go into battery on a pair of Gen 3 Glock 19's and were difficult to remove. I had to hold the slide in my weak hand and strike the grip with my strong hand to get the round to extract. With my Tanfo Stock 2 in past sessions shooting CG failures I might get a round to two that won't go into battery.

So your case gauge showed 10% failure, but only 2-3% of those wouldn't chamber. Correct? If my math is correct that's a fraction of a percent from the 3K that won't actually chamber.

I don't use a case gauge so I have no idea if my ammo would pass or fail. My 150s are seated as long as I can make them and still have them chamber, so as long as I keep an eye on OAL I have no problems.

LittleLebowski
11-10-2017, 11:45 AM
Anything other than a hundo isn't even worth doing unless it's a one off (which you can just use a pistol barrel for).

I need a hundo:(. #PoorFag (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=PoorFag)

willie
11-10-2017, 12:26 PM
In reloading good ammo batch after batch over time, we depend on uniformity to assist us. Range brass can introduce variables that might affect achieving 100% success. For example, some brass brands are thicker or thinner than the cases used to set up the equipment. Likewise, some are longer or shorter. And then, some of this free brass might have been loaded to extreme pressure and fired in handguns that tend to produce bulged cases anyway. Brass that has been fire many times will become work hardened and hence loses its specified degree of softness.
This softness allows it to be resized to a certain dimension and maintain it afterwards. Work hardened brass will tend to spring back past that desired dimension. Cast bullets lubed with traditional lubes are messy, and eventually lube will accumulate in the seating and crimp dies. This accumulation will affect original settings.

So what is the op doing wrong? Probably nothing. I suggest that he separate the culls for study. Inspection of brass before loading will help. As long as he is using range brass, he can expect changes in uniformity. Ranges are great sources for brass, and range brass is good for practice.

martin_j001
12-13-2017, 05:31 AM
So what is the op doing wrong? Probably nothing. I suggest that he separate the culls for study. Inspection of brass before loading will help. As long as he is using range brass, he can expect changes in uniformity. Ranges are great sources for brass, and range brass is good for practice.

In the end, I dialed in my depriming/sizing die a touch better, probably moved the powder funnel/case expander a touch, and also dialed in the crimp a bit better. All these things combined helped, but I’m guessing it may have been more the crimp than anything. Even with my pick-up brass I still use (and don’t, and won’t sort), I may have about 1-2 rounds out of 100 that don’t fall freely into and out of my Hundo case gauge (and this so SO worth the money). The rounds that are a tight fit, or barely sit up in the Hundo get segregated to a baggie for practice ammo. In the last few months I’ve had a couple rounds that had to be “erased” due to a cracked case or something I didn’t notice before reloading it, but those definitely get caught in the Hundo.