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View Full Version : Is AIWB truly "for experts only"



jmjames
12-15-2011, 11:22 AM
Hi guys -

I just passed my CWP course, so it'll be a month or three before I can start carrying. I have been doing a lot of research into what style of carry I should be doing. From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems like AIWB is the better option over IWB in terms of speed and comfort. At the same time, I keep seeing warnings all over the place about the perils of AIWB, and how is "for experts only" or "not for beginners". Is this really the case? From what I can tell (having never carried before), AIWB seems to be no more likely to result in an accidental/negligent discharge, but that the consequences of one are much higher.

If it helps, I'm going to be carrying a P30S V3, starting with it decocked and perhaps also on safe, and if I feel comfortable enough in the future, moving to cocked and locked. I have a very good ability to train myself in habits, processes, and routines for all sorts of stuff, so I do feel that I can internalize whatever technique I need to use to ensure a safe reholster (like keeping a thumb on the hammer). At the same time, safety is a huge consideration of mine, and it would certainly seem that an AD/ND on a sloppy reholster is a lot more likely than getting hurt because I gave up a few tenths of a second on a draw from 4:00 compared to 2:00 or 1:00, just comparing the difference in frequency of reholstering vs. defending myself.

So... is AIWB acceptable for a person who is new to carrying, but has a good awareness of safety, and a very safe pistol? Or should I stick with 4:00 for a period of time first?

Thanks in advance, I really value the opinions of the folks here.

J.Ja

ToddG
12-15-2011, 11:44 AM
The AIWB mantra: if you fuck up, you die.

Where you go from there is up to you.

gtmtnbiker98
12-15-2011, 11:59 AM
The AIWB mantra: if you fuck up, you die.

Where you go from there is up to you.
Nothin' like in your face honesty. Love it!

JDM
12-15-2011, 12:02 PM
I carried a gun daily for nearly 5 years before I started carrying appendix.

I would not suggest, endorse, or support anyone carrying a gun AIWB without first having significant experience.

peterb
12-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Lots of discussion here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?120-AIWB-%28Appendix-Carry%29&highlight=aiwb

JConn
12-15-2011, 12:21 PM
I do think it is only for people with significant experience. It does provide a very good draw but, like everythink else involving concealed carry it is body type specific. For me, strong side 330 iwb conceals better than AIWB. Given I have only tried the fricke archangel and ccc shaggy. Right now I am trying to decide if the extra speed and danger are worth the tradeoff in concealment. The point is, no matter what anyone says you have to actually see what works for you. Have to go to work but may have more thoughts later.

BWT
12-15-2011, 12:26 PM
.... Threads like this make me think my Dad's going to kill himself. He's scary to watch on the gun range...

He's like the little kid brother that follows you except it's with gun purchases.

You need to be cautious, as cautious as possible carrying a gun, IMHO, AIWB it just happens to also be pointing at a vital organ that will kill you.

ETA: I would just install an LEM trigger, decock it and put on the safety, and just turn the safety off coming out of the holster.

I'm kind of warming to the idea of AIWB, (I ordered a holster), but... carrying a gun without a safety + AIWB, still makes me hesitant.

ETA 2: The Gadget being a solution for the glock re-holstering and riding the hammer down after decocking it in the P30. Congratulations on your CWP though.

I live in S.C. as well, and honestly, I got mine early, but it took about 70-80 days IIRC?

YVK
12-15-2011, 12:31 PM
The AIWB mantra: if you fuck up, you die.

Where you go from there is up to you.

Nice way with words you have :)


I carried a gun daily for nearly 5 years before I started carrying appendix.

I would not suggest, endorse, or support anyone carrying a gun AIWB without first having significant experience.

Same here, several years in conventional IWB before AIWB.
In addition, I don't carry some pistols, i.e. Glock, in AIWB.
In addition, every time I put a new pistol in AIWB, I carry with empty chamber for a month or so. Carrying with empty chamber is a bad, indefensible practice that's barely better than not carrying at all. Still, I do it for a limited time until I've sorted out intricacies of handling each pistol type in that position.

MDS
12-15-2011, 12:34 PM
I'm a noob myself and still very much in the process of figuring out how to carry. FWIW, I'd recommend against deciding on any carry method until you have some experience.

JeffJ
12-15-2011, 12:57 PM
I moved to AIWB pretty quickly after I started carrying. It's simply the only comfortable, concealable way that I've found to carry a G19 or larger size pistol. Having said that, it's very body type dependent so it's hard to say what's going to work for you. Honestly, while I am perfectly fine carrying AIWB there are lots of times that I would like to be able to carry behind the hip - mainly classes and matches - also it makes an easier transition from OWB to IWB although I pretty much never carry OWB. If I carried OWB for a living, LEO etc. I would for sure want to carry in a similar spot concealed.

AIWB has a lot of advantages, it also has a zero tolerance fuck up meter. I think the only meaningful advise that we can give you is to keep your options open and be realistic with both your own tendencies and needs. If you even think that you may have any issues with finger/trigger discipline then AIWB is not for you, in fact CC may not be for you until that gets sorted out. Carrying behind the hip because "It's OK if I shoot myself there" doesn't make any sense either - if you have doubts about your adminstrative gun handling then that needs to get squared away with lots and lots of dry work before you carry the pistol.

jmjames
12-15-2011, 01:42 PM
If you even think that you may have any issues with finger/trigger discipline then AIWB is not for you, in fact CC may not be for you until that gets sorted out.

I do currently feel very comfortable with this, and I do feel ready for CC. I actually waited a while to make sure that I was really ready for it before I took the time and spent the money. The folks that really concern me are the ones who I saw in my class who never had touched a pistol before that night.


Carrying behind the hip because "It's OK if I shoot myself there" doesn't make any sense either - if you have doubts about your adminstrative gun handling then that needs to get squared away with lots and lots of dry work before you carry the pistol.

That makes sense to me. I will say that if an accident is to occur, AIWB seems like the most likely to kill or maim me. I do feel good about my gun handling... but at the same time, "practice makes perfect" and I do NOT have years of practice in general, let alone years of practice with carrying habits and techniques. In addition, I feel like no amount of practice is going to guarantee 100% perfection. We've all locked our keys in the house at least a few times in our life, even though it's something we get right many times a day for years straight.

It really does sound like I should *not* skip straight to AIWB. I'll go IWB until I feel 100% ready.

I guess the fact that I had to ask in the first place answered the question to begin with. :)

Thanks to all who took the time to respond!

J.Ja

MechEng
12-15-2011, 02:31 PM
My advice is to listen to the wisdom and advice given by those on this forum that have experience with AIWB carry. Back when I started carrying AIWB about 20 years ago I had no safety advice and was considered INSANE by those friends that knew I carried that way. I heard “Holy shit man, you going to blow your balls off!” from quite a few people. Get some experience carrying IWB on the hip first and study that big AIWB thread here on this forum. See peterb’s reply above for the link.

TCinVA
12-15-2011, 02:51 PM
Folks, the thing about AIWB carry is that it's like having a pet rattlesnake. When you first get the snake, you're paranoid as heck about handling it. You make sure the cage is locked up. You approach the whole situation very carefully. After a while it's just a pet and the potential risk is no longer at the forefront of your mind and so shortcuts creep in.

...and that's when you get bit.

What is necessary with AIWB carry is an advanced understanding and awareness of the risks of what you are doing when you reholster. There's no level of skill at which you arrive and are "safe". The person who will never have a problem is the one who fully expects that every time he reholsters his pistol he's about to do something that's going to kill him and he treats it with the care and caution we would all demonstrate when handling that rattlesnake for the first time. He will adopt handling rituals that help steer him away from disaster. He's also highly likely to have made some equipment choices (like inventing a Gadget, or using a gun with a hammer he can block) that can help minimize the chances of disaster if he behaves like a human being and forgets exactly what it is he's doing.

Using myself as an example primarily because I can speak more about what I do than what other people do:

When I make the decision to reholster my pistol I immediately put my right hand thumb on the hammer and ensure that my trigger finger is straight. I do this with a visual check, meaning I actually look at my hand and mentally ask myself if my trigger finger is straight to ensure that my important digits are in the proper place. Once I've lifted my shirt out of the way, I insert the barrel end of the pistol into the holster and then straighten all of my fingers. The only digit left making contact on the pistol is the end of my thumb against the hammer. Using only light pressure from my thumb I gently push the pistol back into the holster until it is seated. I use light pressure because if anything grabs the trigger I'll be able to feel the hammer's movement against my thumb and in the worst case block the hammer's movement.

If you combine all of that with the practice of angling the pistol away from yourself as much as possible while inserting the barrel end into the holster and pushing your hips out to try and make the angle of the muzzle clear your important bits, you're dramatically less likely to end up dead or a eunuch on each reholster where you actually perform all those tasks. On the one out of 10/100/1000/10,000/1,000,000 where you don't, you're smack dab in the middle of...well....

311

David Armstrong
12-15-2011, 03:01 PM
I have been doing a lot of research into what style of carry I should be doing. From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems like AIWB is the better option over IWB in terms of speed and comfort.
The basic problem with reading things is that if you read enough you will almost always find a completely opposite view. What is better for speed and comfort for one person can easily be worse for speed and comfort for another person. As I'm fond of saying, within some very broad parameters there is no "better", only "different." Keeping in mind what others have already said about AIWB, try out a number of things and find what is better for YOU, not for someone else. A little more research will find assorted folks promoting every position from about 1:30 through 5:30 and to a lesser degree supporters of assorted other locations.

jetfire
12-15-2011, 03:51 PM
The AIWB mantra: if you fuck up, you die.

Which is also exactly why I wouldn't want to see AIWB allowed in IDPA. Because the average IDPA shooter isn't a Master class shooter that spends time on the range and at home honing his skills. He's a MM/SS, and realizes that AIWB is faster from concealment than a vest and OWB holster.

ToddG
12-15-2011, 04:20 PM
But slower for reloads, enough so that it cancels out the small gain in draw speed.

I wouldn't object to a rule that allowed appendix carry only for guns with a physical intervention of the trigger (hammer, safety, gadget) but then I'm biased...

jthhapkido
12-15-2011, 04:44 PM
But slower for reloads, enough so that it cancels out the small gain in draw speed.

Um----I must be missing something obvious. How is AIWB slower for reloads? Are there many reloads in IDPA that are done with the gun in the holster?

:confused:

LOKNLOD
12-15-2011, 04:46 PM
Um----I must be missing something obvious. How is AIWB slower for reloads? Are there many reloads in IDPA that are done with the gun in the holster?

:confused:

Closed front cover garment can make getting ahold of the mags trickier.

jetfire
12-15-2011, 04:46 PM
To AIWB and comply with IDPA rules, your mags have to be concealed, which generally means a closed front shirt.

jthhapkido
12-15-2011, 04:47 PM
Ah. Thanks, folks. (If you can't tell, I don't shoot IDPA. The cover garment aspect didn't even occur to me.)

David Armstrong
12-15-2011, 04:50 PM
Some of you folks that have been around for a while may remember that an AOWB position was very popular in the early days of IPSC, and a Mexican Carry AIWB was (still is?) was really popular with LEOs working undercover.

jar
12-15-2011, 05:53 PM
Some of you folks that have been around for a while may remember that an AOWB position was very popular in the early days of IPSC, and a Mexican Carry AIWB was (still is?) was really popular with LEOs working undercover.

While the popular position these days isn't as far forward as true AIWB, it's definitely still forward of the hip.

JHC
12-15-2011, 06:08 PM
Some of you folks that have been around for a while may remember that an AOWB position was very popular in the early days of IPSC, and a Mexican Carry AIWB was (still is?) was really popular with LEOs working undercover.

I remember it well and also that Bruce Nelson carried a condition 1 1911 AIWB so long ago there is a fossil record. Most of my AIWB (maybe all of it) in the '80s was with a snub .38 which was about as foolproof as possible.

TGS
12-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Some of you folks that have been around for a while may remember that an AOWB position was very popular in the early days of IPSC, and a Mexican Carry AIWB was (still is?) was really popular with LEOs working undercover.


Good reminder, David.

When I was first instructed on sidearms in the USMC, we were also told to wear our holster AOWB because of the many benefits of carrying forward of the hip. This was 2007, conducted by the WTBn at Quantico, I'm guessing shortly after Failure2Stop would have left there.

I was hooked onto the appendix position from the first day of formal training I ever received on pistols, and the first time I ever carried a loaded weapon was in the appendix position. I don't think that's a dangerous proposition, but I guess I'm very biased :)

I will never carry appendix without a hammer or "gadget," no matter how experienced I consider myself.

MechEng
12-15-2011, 11:11 PM
I remember it well and also that Bruce Nelson carried a condition 1 1911 AIWB so long ago there is a fossil record. Most of my AIWB (maybe all of it) in the '80s was with a snub .38 which was about as foolproof as possible.

My first AIWB holster was a Bruce Nelson Summer Special, with a straight drop and I carried a colt commander 1911 in it. I found that holster in one of those used holster boxes at an old gun shop up in PA.
I'd post a picture of it but unfortunately it was sold along with the commander a few years ago.

jmjames
12-16-2011, 02:25 AM
So, just to confirm, I should get SERPA and self-modify it for AIWB, right? :D

In all seriousness, I think I'll be trying a CTAC, because I think that with its adjustments, I will have the chance to experiment with a lot of different positions and angles to see what works best for me, and even if I dislike the CTAC itself, having a good idea of what works best for me will help speed up my search for the right holster.

J.Ja

MechEng
12-16-2011, 12:09 PM
So, just to confirm, I should get SERPA and self-modify it for AIWB, right? :D


If you want to pull a "Tex Grebner" into your junk then go for it. :eek:

jmjames
12-16-2011, 12:36 PM
If you want to pull a "Tex Grebner" into your junk then go for it. :eek:

Let's just say that the "intended user" of that particular piece of equipment hasn't wanted to spend much time at the range lately, so it's headed towards "safe queen" status anyways...

J.Ja

texasaggie2005
12-19-2011, 09:08 AM
In all seriousness, I think I'll be trying a CTAC, because I think that with its adjustments, I will have the chance to experiment with a lot of different positions and angles to see what works best for me, and even if I dislike the CTAC itself, having a good idea of what works best for me will help speed up my search for the right holster.

J.Ja

FWIW, I screwed around a little while trying to get a CTAC configured for AIWB, didn't work for me at all. Ended up using it in the traditional 3:30-4:00 position. I'd recommend getting a dedicated AIWB holster if that's what you want to try.

jmjames
12-19-2011, 10:03 AM
FWIW, I screwed around a little while trying to get a CTAC configured for AIWB, didn't work for me at all. Ended up using it in the traditional 3:30-4:00 position. I'd recommend getting a dedicated AIWB holster if that's what you want to try.

Sorry, I forgot to say that I'll be using it in the 4:00 - 3:00 positions. The folks in this thread have done a good job at convincing me to not do AIWB yet. :)

J.Ja

TheRoland
12-19-2011, 07:17 PM
FWIW, I screwed around a little while trying to get a CTAC configured for AIWB, didn't work for me at all. Ended up using it in the traditional 3:30-4:00 position. I'd recommend getting a dedicated AIWB holster if that's what you want to try.

I carry in a CTAC at 2:45 or so; right behind my front right pocket. If I wanted to move toward 2:00, I agree the holster would be totally nogo.

TCz
12-22-2011, 12:55 AM
I started AIWB two years ago, when I started carrying. It was the most comfortable and concealable option for me, felt more natural, and I was attracted by the reports of faster draws. Ah, who am I kidding; this is what first drew me to AIWB, and if I'm the only one, I'll eat my holster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2Il86-38A&feature=related

Anyway, never looked back. Interestingly enough, there is much, much more information readily available now on AIWB than there was just two years ago. It seems like all I could find then was how you could only carry something with a 2" barrel, you'd shoot your nuts off, you had to use negative cant and a lot of other nonsense... I am thrilled that a resource like ptf is available.

jmjames
12-22-2011, 02:03 AM
Ah, who am I kidding; this is what first drew me to AIWB, and if I'm the only one, I'll eat my holster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2Il86-38A&feature=related

That's the kind of guy who would manage to shoot a police chief from something like a mile away from a rooftop. :)

Over the summer I finally got to sit down and watch my Miami Vice box set, I had it for a year or two, but it took the birth of a child and the resulting endless hours feeding her to give me the time to watch it. That sequence was a favorite of mine because it really showed the attention to detail, notably the officer's mistake of averting the eyes for a moment.

J.Ja

ToddG
12-22-2011, 12:00 PM
I love the top comment:



Moral of the story? Don't trust your limo driver if he's wearing shooting glasses.
mikeyjsc 2 years ago

Sparks2112
12-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Just for purposes of clarity. What position range are we counting as aiwb? 12-2?

t1tan
12-26-2011, 07:22 PM
Just for purposes of clarity. What position range are we counting as aiwb? 12-2?

For me it's right over one of my incisions from having my appendix out laparoscopically back in August, lol.


but yeah when I think of appendix carry its in that general area, for me around 12:30-1

JodyH
12-26-2011, 07:28 PM
If you have any doubts as to your safe gunhandling... AIWB is not for you.
If you have no doubts as to your safe gunhandling... AIWB is not for you.

JHC
12-26-2011, 07:35 PM
If you have any doubts as to your safe gunhandling... AIWB is not for you.
If you have no doubts as to your safe gunhandling... AIWB is not for you.

In the 80's I AIWB a lot (due to NPE) and almost all of that was a J or K frame Smith or a D frame Colt. SOOOOO much less pucker factor with a wheelie.

ToddG
12-26-2011, 11:09 PM
If you have any doubts as to your safe gunhandling... AIWB is not for you.
If you have no doubts as to your safe gunhandling... AIWB is not for you.

Excellent.