Take up or not take up trigger slack, or should I pause before I reach the wall?

[randyflycaster]

This is a follow up to a previous thread, as I am now confused again.

I read/watched that many top shooters describe how they take up all the trigger slack, then break the shot. Brian Zins seems to do this, as he doesn't believe in a surprise break. I heard another top shooter, maybe Shannon Smith, also say he doesn't believe in a surprise break.

I guess what I'm confused about, am I not supposed to take out slack, then pause just before I reach the wall? Or am I supposed to take out slack then, without pausing, press right through the wall?

(BTW, I am asking this is reference to marksmanship not to personal defense.)

Randy

[spinmove_]

I'm probably the last person that should be handing out advice on this topic, but what works for most people is pressing straight through the wall with no pausing. The more you pay attention to the pause the more you're not concentrating on what's more important. Which is your sights.

Actively interface with your sights. Passively interface with your trigger. Do the thing that makes your sights not move. Don't overthink this. I'm guilty of it as well, but it just ends up hurting you in the end.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[VegasHK]

I have come to believe the term "surprise break" is really a misnomer. If it's a "surprise break", that would indicate that it wasn't purposeful and intentional. I much prefer the term "smooth, deliberate break"
I tend to try to take up the slack to the wall, make any tiny adjustments as needed, then smoothly press through the wall. This is all assuming I'm lined up on target, have sight alignment and have made the decision to fire. For me it's: draw with finger indexed, drive out to target, obtain sight picture, sight alignment, finger moves to trigger, take up slack to wall as I'm making last second adjustments, press through wall, reset trigger, assess, scan.
This works for me. Hope it helps a little.

[PNWTO]

I press through the wall like the spinmove_ said. This is really an Occam's Razor approach and easy to over-analyze, check out the reference section and some of Todd G's articles.

[QUOTE=VegasHK;575252]I have come to believe the term "surprise break" is really a misnomer. If it's a "surprise break", that would indicate that it wasn't purposeful and intentional. I much prefer the term "smooth, deliberate break"
QUOTE]

Totally agree. I like the term, and Cooper's video, for an introduction but I don't think it is as applicable as proficiency increases.

[Gio]

See the other thread on flinching for several good descriptions of what you should be doing. If you are shooting for pure bullseye type untimed accuracy, experiment with just shooting from the wall vs pressing through slack and wall at once. However, under any kind of time pressure, you need to learn to press the trigger quickly without disturbing the sights, which means learning to press it all the way through the slack in one continuous motion.

Some of the shooters you mentioned are 1911/2011 shooters, which essentially have little to no slack to worry about in the first place. Shooting a Striker fired trigger is much more challenging and requires a different technique.

[Peally]

Everyone good I know just pulls right through it without moving the sights, no screwing around with walls or prep or any of that silly stuff. But then I predominately shoot USPSA.

[Mitch]

The way I treat it depends on the type of shooting, target, distance, and what gun I'm using.

So without any context, my answer would be: maybe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lomshek]

This is a follow up to a previous thread, as I am now confused again.

I read/watched that many top shooters describe how they take up all the trigger slack, then break the shot. Brian Zins seems to do this, as he doesn't believe in a surprise break. I heard another top shooter, maybe Shannon Smith, also say he doesn't believe in a surprise break.

I guess what I'm confused about, am I not supposed to take out slack, then pause just before I reach the wall? Or am I supposed to take out slack then, without pausing, press right through the wall?

(BTW, I am asking this is reference to marksmanship not to personal defense.)

Randy

For bullseye handgun shooting and NRA High Power rifle it has its place when doing extreme precision slow fire shots.

Beyond that no it's not used that I'm aware of by anyone beyond some dude at the range who just doesn't know any better.
No one in USPSA/IDPA (Shannon Smith or otherwise) is staging triggers. They don't have time to.

Stroke quickly through the trigger pull once the sights are on target whether it's a 1911 with the world's best trigger, a Nagant revolver, an AK, an AR with a Geissele SSA or a Beretta 92.

ETA - If I'm doing something stupid like trying to make a shot at 100 yards with my defensive gun then yes I'll prep the trigger by taking the slack out then complete the press when I finish exhaling as my sights land on target. In rifle stuff if I'm trying to get under 2 MOA then prepping helps.

[Jay Cunningham]

For bullseye handgun shooting and NRA High Power rifle it has its place when doing extreme precision slow fire shots.

Beyond that no it's not used that I'm aware of by anyone beyond some dude at the range who just doesn't know any better.
No one in USPSA/IDPA (Shannon Smith or otherwise) is staging triggers. They don't have time to.

Stroke quickly through the trigger pull once the sights are on target whether it's a 1911 with the world's best trigger, a Nagant revolver, an AK, an AR with a Geissele SSA or a Beretta 92.

Mr. White and I have had good discussions about operating the trigger faster and slower - but always in the same fashion i.e. one continuous movement.

On a related note, I've found that there is a lot of confusion on staging a trigger vs. prepping a trigger.

[Lomshek]

Mr. White and I have had good discussions about operating the trigger faster and slower - but always in the same fashion i.e. one continuous movement.

On a related note, I've found that there is a lot of confusion on staging a trigger vs. prepping a trigger.

I'm ate up like a football bat and screwed up a couple edits.

I agree and edited my post above to call it prepping.

Staging a DA trigger (pulling through 90% of the trigger pull then pausing before let off to tweak sight alignment) is something that usually ends badly.

If my definitions are off then my I'll sit in the corner with my football bat and play with my square marble!

[Jay Cunningham]

Here's the way I described it one time in a conversation with Todd:


And even when the *concept* is understood, in far too many cases I see shooters prepping the trigger on their presentation - then pausing *for whatever reason* - thus killing the initial gain of the trigger prep and now putting them in the mental state of "I'm all prepped and ready to go but oh shit I paused and didn't take the shot yet wait I'm behind the power curve I better take my shot NOW" BANG! and then snatching the trigger due to the mental anticipation game inside their head.

Two other threads with good related discussions:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7708-Dry-Practice-Misconceptions-Updated-12-04-16

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18178-The-Flinch-Pre-Ignition-Push-quot-Unwanted-Gun-Movement-quot

[Leroy]

When people say just press through be careful that you don't interpret that as I take out slack at the same speed as breaking the shot. I tend to think of removing trigger slack as not really part of the press but something I have to do before I actually have to press the trigger. On easy shots I just wack the trigger on hard shots my press will most likely slow as I work trigger resistance after removing slack. Feedback from the sights are subconsciously controlling the speed of the press.

[Lomshek]

When people say just press through be careful that you don't interpret that as I take out slack at the same speed as breaking the shot. I tend to think of removing trigger slack as not really part of the press but something I have to do before I actually have to press the trigger. On easy shots I just wack the trigger on hard shots my press will most likely slow as I work trigger resistance after removing slack. Feedback from the sights are subconsciously controlling the speed of the press.

For 99% of my handgun shooting I have one trigger press. Once the decision to fire is made I move the trigger finger as quickly as I can do it without disturbing the gun. Body shots at 50 yards get the same trigger press speed as body shots at 5 yards. The only thing that changes is how long I take to get sight alignment/picture.

The only exception is uber precision shooting and I'm trying to improve my trigger control to the point I don't have a modified trigger stroke there.

[Leroy]

For 99% of my handgun shooting I have one trigger press. Once the decision to fire is made I move the trigger finger as quickly as I can do it without disturbing the gun. Body shots at 50 yards get the same trigger press speed as body shots at 5 yards. The only thing that changes is how long I take to get sight alignment/picture.

The only exception is uber precision shooting and I'm trying to improve my trigger control to the point I don't have a modified trigger stroke there.

I just can't get on board with this idea unless I am cool with really slow 5 yard shots. The speed at which I press the trigger at 5 yards moves the gun it just doesn't matter becuase the target is so close. Anybody aggressively working a trigger is moving the gun during the press.

[Jay Cunningham]

I just can't get on board with this idea unless I am cool with really slow 5 yard shots. The speed at which I press the trigger at 5 yards moves the gun it just doesn't matter becuase the target is so close. Anybody aggressively working a trigger is moving the gun during the press.

What does your dry practice look like? How hard do you grip your gun?

[GJM]

on point:

https://nextleveltraining.com/trigger-press-methods/

[Gio]

I just can't get on board with this idea unless I am cool with really slow 5 yard shots. The speed at which I press the trigger at 5 yards moves the gun it just doesn't matter becuase the target is so close. Anybody aggressively working a trigger is moving the gun during the press.

I agree with this. The speed my trigger finger moves changes depending on target difficulty, but it's always a continuous press through the slack and break.

[Trajan]

Slack comes out on the press out. Sight picture and break the wall. In recoil the trigger finger loosens up, and due to the mechanics of Glocks and DA S&W revolvers, the trigger pushes itself back out to the point where it can be pressed back again.

This results in me just preforming short presses, vs the entire length of the trigger.

[JustOneGun]

Two ways of getting to the same place? First does your pistol have slack. Telling someone shooting a 1911 or TDA to take up the slack is pretty limited at best. A Glock? For new people it's been my experience that most are helped by taking up the slack. But really once a new person is trained and making good gains what is really happening? Finish taking up the slack right before the draw stroke is done. There is a pause while a person gains the final sight picture and press.

Or a person can just press through the wall on the Glock at the end of the draw stroke. Either way the timing for each would be pretty much the same. If you look at well trained shooters it is often hard to tell how they are doing it because they are essentially doing the same thing. With training isn't the robotic 1, 2, 3, 4 draw stroke look like one fluid movement? Same for take up the slack. Ultimately the goal is accuracy with no pause.

As for surprised break? Yeah I dislike the term too. It's not a surprise. It's just not caring that the gun is going off. In fact a click would be the surprise. As the saying goes, "No louder sound in a gunfight as a click." LOL!

[Lomshek]

I just can't get on board with this idea unless I am cool with really slow 5 yard shots. The speed at which I press the trigger at 5 yards moves the gun it just doesn't matter becuase the target is so close. Anybody aggressively working a trigger is moving the gun during the press.

The only thing that changes is what I look for to indicate I'm on target. A 5 yard (or less) target gets either a very crude flash sight picture or even just a slide profile in front of the target. At 50 yards I need a much more precise picture. That quality of sight picture needed will also affect how long it takes me to get a first shot off and follow up shots. None of that affects how quickly the trigger moves.

If I'm jerking the gun I need a better grip, better contact spot with the trigger or better trigger control in general. Slowing the trigger speed down will allow me (maybe) to correct for those deficiencies and make the shot but correcting those deficiencies is better.

I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and run USPSA matches where I inevitably end up teaching new competitors in handgunnery and do some freelancing for things like ROTC handgun familiarization. For all of those I teach the fast stroke trigger press and everyone (rifle shooters, new USPSA competitors and novices) sees their groups shrink when they do it whether shooting a Glock, DA Beretta 92 or AR. The smallest target in Appleseed is a postage stamp size square at 25 yards (4 MOA) to give some idea of the level of precision we teach.

If a shooter slows down their trigger speed they inevitably start anticipating when the shot will break and end up holding their breath as they think "Here comes the shot...almost there...hold your breath...get the sights back on target...BANG!" That mental discussion can take anywhere from 1 second to 5 seconds but is plenty of time to screw up the shot.

The original question was whether the trigger slack is taken out then the shot is fired after a pause. My answer is not normally unless you're shooting crazy precise stuff. Trigger speed is a related part of that that I see a lot of folks hurt their accuracy potential with by going too slow. Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly. You should be able to do it with an empty case balanced on your front sight. I can usually get 2 or 3 repetitions on a DA trigger before the case vibrates off the front sight from the hammer dropping.

[45dotACP]

I've found that I shoot glocks far better when I press the trigger in one continuous motion, like working a double action revolver trigger. "Pin and reset" tends to lead me to slap the trigger too much. Plus, when I reset the trigger in recoil I don't take up the slack on the next trigger press, no matter the distance.

Also to note: When I shoot a competition, I don't cautiously take up slack, no matter the distance. I just don't. Call it fake stress inoculation, but shooting competition has helped me to realize what I do and don't do with my gun under pressure, and it's not pin and reset.

[Leroy]

The only thing that changes is what I look for to indicate I'm on target. A 5 yard (or less) target gets either a very crude flash sight picture or even just a slide profile in front of the target. At 50 yards I need a much more precise picture. That quality of sight picture needed will also affect how long it takes me to get a first shot off and follow up shots. None of that affects how quickly the trigger moves.

If I'm jerking the gun I need a better grip, better contact spot with the trigger or better trigger control in general. Slowing the trigger speed down will allow me (maybe) to correct for those deficiencies and make the shot but correcting those deficiencies is better.

I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and run USPSA matches where I inevitably end up teaching new competitors in handgunnery and do some freelancing for things like ROTC handgun familiarization. For all of those I teach the fast stroke trigger press and everyone (rifle shooters, new USPSA competitors and novices) sees their groups shrink when they do it whether shooting a Glock, DA Beretta 92 or AR. The smallest target in Appleseed is a postage stamp size square at 25 yards (4 MOA) to give some idea of the level of precision we teach.

If a shooter slows down their trigger speed they inevitably start anticipating when the shot will break and end up holding their breath as they think "Here comes the shot...almost there...hold your breath...get the sights back on target...BANG!" That mental discussion can take anywhere from 1 second to 5 seconds but is plenty of time to screw up the shot.

The original question was whether the trigger slack is taken out then the shot is fired after a pause. My answer is not normally unless you're shooting crazy precise stuff. Trigger speed is a related part of that that I see a lot of folks hurt their accuracy potential with by going too slow. Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly. You should be able to do it with an empty case balanced on your front sight. I can usually get 2 or 3 repetitions on a DA trigger before the case vibrates off the front sight from the hammer dropping.

Cool man, this technique never worked for me, but I deffinitely agree with never pausing the press. Just to clarify, the difference in time pressing the trigger between a 5 yard target and say a 25 yard target would be like .1 to .3 seconds depending on variables. It is a small time difference that allows for slight corrections during the press. The lighter the trigger the less difference.

[randyflycaster]

Thanks for the help. What is the difference between staging the trigger and prepping the trigger?
Randy

[Jay Cunningham]

Prepping the trigger is beginning to work the trigger at the earliest point in the presentation and continuing through to breaking the shot.

Staging is "taking the slack out" of the trigger, then stopping or pausing then resuming the trigger manipulation.

[taadski]

I define "prepping" as having the reset completed and the slack taken out of the system such that one CAN immediately row through the press when the sights come to rest or settle enough to do so. Think Bruce Gray's "peeling the onion" drill.

I think of "staging" as beginning said press in earnest, and then stopping on the way to make final refinements before breaking the shot. As opposed to rowing straight through in one motion.

[JustOneGun]

Prepping the trigger is beginning to work the trigger at the earliest point in the presentation and continuing through to breaking the shot.

Staging is "taking the slack out" of the trigger, then stopping or pausing then resuming the trigger manipulation.



I'm not sure if I agree with those definitions. For Glocks most people I know would reverse them. If you are talking a TDA sure. It's pretty hard to stage the trigger repeatedly under stress and I've never met anyone who wants to train people to do that in self defense. I've never heard anyone define taking the slack out of the trigger on a Glock as staging the trigger. Most would disagree with your staging the trigger as being bad in, "Taking the slack out of a Glock." That is definitely different than staging a double action and then finishing after stopping. Most would define that as bad.

[John Hearne]

There's probably a few more factors to consider. First, there's what is best for someone learning and what's best for someone who can already shoot well. A big variable is whether the person can manipulate the trigger without a sympathetic squeeze from the other fingers that's large enough to disturb the sights. This can be accomplished by deliberately practicing the movement of the trigger finger in isolation or by having enough grip strength (especially in the non-dominant hand) to overcome the sympathetic squeeze. Can't prove it to scientific standards but I'd bet that advanced shooters have done enough work to have a lot more independent movement of the trigger finger than less skilled shooters. When you combine that trigger finger isolation with a lot of grip strength then the range of shooting problems over which they can "slap" the trigger is pretty broad.

Personally, I have to run the trigger differently for the problem I'm trying to solve. I can run the trigger straight back in a continuous fashion for a full A zone or -0 within 7 yards or so. As the difficulty increases I will get to the wall as quick as I humanly can and then move through the wall at the speed I need to hit. Try as I might, I have not been able to shoot "The Test" to standard if I press straight through. If I have even the slightest pause before pressing through the wall I can shoot it fine and fairly quickly. My shooting volume is down dramatically with a wife in college and a new baby. I suspect that with regular live and dry practice I could pull continuously and hit on "The Test" but I don't have the resources, mostly time, to make that happen right now. I also err towards the accuracy side of the accuracy/speed equation.

For a new shooter, I really encourage them to work to the wall as quickly as possible and then break the wall at the speed to make the hit. When they're really new, they really have to ease through the wall to hit. There are exceptions, I've got one guy who is a serious weight lifter and his grip strength allows him to shoot remarkably well while using a crossed thumbs grip.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm not sure if I agree with those definitions. For Glocks most people I know would reverse them. If you are talking a TDA sure. It's pretty hard to stage the trigger repeatedly under stress and I've never met anyone who wants to train people to do that in self defense. I've never heard anyone define taking the slack out of the trigger on a Glock as staging the trigger. Most would disagree with your staging the trigger as being bad in, "Taking the slack out of a Glock." That is definitely different than staging a double action and then finishing after stopping. Most would define that as bad.

It's all good - we simply run into the issue of language, definitions, and semantics. The best we can do is try to be as descriptive as we can, I suppose.

Suffice to say, IMO a certain decisiveness needs to be part of the trigger press on the index draw or in the prep during the pressout. Otherwise it turns into staging, which is a precursor to jerking/snatching the trigger.

:cool:

[SLG]

The only thing that changes is what I look for to indicate I'm on target. A 5 yard (or less) target gets either a very crude flash sight picture or even just a slide profile in front of the target. At 50 yards I need a much more precise picture. That quality of sight picture needed will also affect how long it takes me to get a first shot off and follow up shots. None of that affects how quickly the trigger moves.

If I'm jerking the gun I need a better grip, better contact spot with the trigger or better trigger control in general. Slowing the trigger speed down will allow me (maybe) to correct for those deficiencies and make the shot but correcting those deficiencies is better.

I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and run USPSA matches where I inevitably end up teaching new competitors in handgunnery and do some freelancing for things like ROTC handgun familiarization. For all of those I teach the fast stroke trigger press and everyone (rifle shooters, new USPSA competitors and novices) sees their groups shrink when they do it whether shooting a Glock, DA Beretta 92 or AR. The smallest target in Appleseed is a postage stamp size square at 25 yards (4 MOA) to give some idea of the level of precision we teach.

If a shooter slows down their trigger speed they inevitably start anticipating when the shot will break and end up holding their breath as they think "Here comes the shot...almost there...hold your breath...get the sights back on target...BANG!" That mental discussion can take anywhere from 1 second to 5 seconds but is plenty of time to screw up the shot.

The original question was whether the trigger slack is taken out then the shot is fired after a pause. My answer is not normally unless you're shooting crazy precise stuff. Trigger speed is a related part of that that I see a lot of folks hurt their accuracy potential with by going too slow. Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly. You should be able to do it with an empty case balanced on your front sight. I can usually get 2 or 3 repetitions on a DA trigger before the case vibrates off the front sight from the hammer dropping.



What's your normal Appleseed score? What's your best?

What group size can you shoot on demand at 25 and 50 and 100 with a handgun?

[LSW]

To pause before the break to me takes time, and I want to get the shot off as quickly as possible. I find that this sort of pause doesn't really help my accuracy, unless I'm shooting rested type groups in super slow fire. A new pistol I picked up recently has a bit of a false break just before the shot fires. I find myself inadvertantly pausing there sometimes. The one thing it has allowed me to do is catch myself flinching/pushing a bit when I thought the shot was supposed to fire. Maybe that's something a pause could prevent. I'm just a C class/sharpshooter type so take my word with a graint of salt, haha.

I think a lot depends on the type of trigger you're shooting too. On a glock/m&p type service pistol I think you should take up the initial slack as soon as the gun is pointed downrange, not necessarily wait until the sights are lined up perfectly on the A zone.

[Lomshek]

What's your normal Appleseed score? What's your best?

What group size can you shoot on demand at 25 and 50 and 100 with a handgun?

Appleseed 215-225 average. I don't think I've ever gotten over 240. On that I've been playing with "rapid fire" firing 1 to 2 rounds per breath on all targets firing as fast as my sights land on target and still get my hits. That's been a new challenge with NPOA shifts as fast as I can scooch over.

Handgun at 25 5-6" 10 round group slow fire two handed in 30 seconds or so.

I don't shoot enough groups at 50 or 100 to give an answer for that. It's mostly poppers. At 50 yards 80% hits. 100 less so but I just fitted an Apex barrel to my M&P so we'll see what that gives me.

If my method of working through the trigger quickly is wrong I'm open to correction.

[SLG]

Appleseed 215-225 average. I don't think I've ever gotten over 240. On that I've been playing with "rapid fire" firing 1 to 2 rounds per breath on all targets firing as fast as my sights land on target and still get my hits. That's been a new challenge with NPOA shifts as fast as I can scooch over.

Handgun at 25 5-6" 10 round group slow fire two handed in 30 seconds or so.

I don't shoot enough groups at 50 or 100 to give an answer for that. It's mostly poppers. At 50 yards 80% hits. 100 less so but I just fitted an Apex barrel to my M&P so we'll see what that gives me.

If my method of working through the trigger quickly is wrong I'm open to correction.

Well, I think trying to work the trigger at the same speed at all distances is not the best way to go. I try not to stop my press, but I definitely vary the speed based on the needs of my sights, which of course varies from target to target and distance to distance.

If it helps with perspective, my appleseed scores are consistently 247-249, and my 25 yard groups are sub 3" (5 shot). 100 yards are sub 6". Others on here can shoot tighter, no doubt, but I don't think any of them maintain a 5 yard target speed at 25. It is an interesting idea though.

[Lomshek]

Well, I think trying to work the trigger at the same speed at all distances is not the best way to go. I try not to stop my press, but I definitely vary the speed based on the needs of my sights, which of course varies from target to target and distance to distance.

If it helps with perspective, my appleseed scores are consistently 247-249, and my 25 yard groups are sub 3" (5 shot). 100 yards are sub 6". Others on here can shoot tighter, no doubt, but I don't think any of them maintain a 5 yard target speed at 25. It is an interesting idea though.

Not at all in doubt as to your abilities dwarfing mine. I'll pay some conscious attention to my trigger speed and play with different methods to see what the result is.

One thing I've observed in myself is my groups don't get better and usually get worse when I slow down my trigger speed. Maybe I'm giving myself time to anticipate the shot? The one exception is when I'm doing dedicated precision shooting like benched handgun or slow fire prone rifle. Definitely able to get into my happy place then.

ETA - When I talk about trigger speed I'm talking about the time it takes me to move the trigger from front to rear once I start moving the trigger. In the precision shooting I mention above I pause when I finish the first stage and complete the trigger press once I'm at the end of my breath.

[SLG]

Not at all in doubt as to your abilities dwarfing mine. I'll pay some conscious attention to my trigger speed and play with different methods to see what the result is.

One thing I've observed in myself is my groups don't get better and usually get worse when I slow down my trigger speed. Maybe I'm giving myself time to anticipate the shot? The one exception is when I'm doing dedicated precision shooting like benched handgun or slow fire prone rifle. Definitely able to get into my happy place then.

I was not posting my scores to belittle yours at all. If you were cleaning Appleseed while pulling the trigger that fast, I would have to reconsider my take on it. I mentioned them purely for perspective.

I think there is something to the idea of a slower pull "helping" people to anticipate more. I also think that to get into higher levels of precision, you have to simply overcome the desire to anticipate.

We do a drill at work that i got from mid-south, called the Now! drill. It has been altered over the years and is not the same today as it used to be, but the "correct" version involves forcing the shooter to pull the trigger faster, and still keep a very tight group at fairly close range. This tremendously helps people with practical shooting, but does not improve their group shooting at distance. I really don't think it is possible to pull the trigger at full speed and expect good results at distance, but it all depends what the acceptable target size is, I suppose.

Have you ever filmed your trigger finger, shooting at different distances? I'd really be surprised if it is going the same speed all the time, but it may well be. If it is, I would say that 6" groups at 25 is pretty impressive.

[Lomshek]

I was not posting my scores to belittle yours at all. If you were cleaning Appleseed while pulling the trigger that fast, I would have to reconsider my take on it. I mentioned them purely for perspective.Didn't take it as belittlement at all. Web discussions are so easy to read the wrong meanings into something it's frustrating to try and bring up stuff like that but I got what you were conveying as to bona fides.




I think there is something to the idea of a slower pull "helping" people to anticipate more. I also think that to get into higher levels of precision, you have to simply overcome the desire to anticipate.

We do a drill at work that i got from mid-south, called the Now! drill. It has been altered over the years and is not the same today as it used to be, but the "correct" version involves forcing the shooter to pull the trigger faster, and still keep a very tight group at fairly close range. This tremendously helps people with practical shooting, but does not improve their group shooting at distance. I really don't think it is possible to pull the trigger at full speed and expect good results at distance, but it all depends what the acceptable target size is, I suppose.

Have you ever filmed your trigger finger, shooting at different distances? I'd really be surprised if it is going the same speed all the time, but it may well be. If it is, I would say that 6" groups at 25 is pretty impressive.I'll try filming trigger speed when I have a range buddy with me.

As far as Appleseed I used to be very guilty of s-l-o-w-l-y milking the trigger to try and get the most precise release and finally realized it was hurting more than helping so went to the polar opposite. I press cleanly through the trigger as quickly as I (cleanly) can. With precision handloads like SMK's I can do a little under 2 MOA slung up prone unsupported.

[rdtompki]

This thread and the excellent links have increased my determination to up the frequency of my dry fire sessions. My wife and I practice 2x/week for steel challenge and we're working at increased dry fire and adding relevant drills to the mix. My biggest challenge is getting a good support hand grip every time. I can particular appreciate the value of getting my support hand as high as possible (9mm 1911) - I get much better contact with the gun which will help when pulling through the 3 lb. trigger.

My SD gun is a stock HK P2000 V2 in 9mm. I'd welcome hearing from a few folks who run this gun at speed. There's no "slack" as such, just that first stage spring; any time I'm shooting rapid fire I'm on the heavier spring before the sights have settled. Same thing during fast target transitions; I just treat that first stage as slack. I don't think I could press through that entire trigger motion fast once on the target. I can just barely get under .5 seconds with the H&K; not sure about the 1911, but the split would be faster.

[randyflycaster]

Folks,
Just wanted to thank all of you for your wonderful posts. Learned a lot, and I'm very grateful,
Randy

[Gio]

I agree with SLG's advice. In theory, if you could press the trigger "5 yd target fast" and the sights don't move at all, then it doesn't matter if the target is at 25, 50, or 100 yds, you should be able to hit it. I think the problem is there will always be some "slight" movement, otherwise we'd all be able to shoot the same as a ransom rest.
Lomshek, as you pointed out, there are other challenges with slowing down your trigger finger speed, naemely, the temptation to anticipate the shot or not keep a continuously increasing trigger finger pressure.

In defensive pistol shooting or action pistol sports, I think the difference in trigger speed is minimal between a hoser target and a 25 yd target. After all, we are only trying to hit a 6"x11" A zone (and some shooters are only trying to hang 2 on brown). There should still be a slight difference though. The difference is more pronounced when trying to shoot as tight of groups as possible or bullseye courses.

[Surf]

Very quick or compressed time to first shot and I obviously pull all the way through. All follow up shots are a reset during recoil where the the slack is taken out of the trigger during recoil and the trigger is at the wall prior to the weapon settling post recoil. Once the sights settle the correct amount of pressure is put on the trigger to break the next shot.

This is a video I did recently on resetting during recoil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbVi25ZeuQc

Shortly after I posted the above video, I was asked if I do the same thing as what is described in a video featuring JJ Racaza in the video below. It is exactly what I was speaking about and if I would have seen JJ's video prior, I would have just referenced his.

JJ Racaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbWfwQyglmA

[MGW]

JJ just described me to a T. I think it explains a lot of the issues I have. I was actually taught to shoot like this growing up but it was a different style of shooting. All the shooting I was around was bullseye.

So what's the best way to break the habit of pinning the trigger? I've been doing this for 35 years or so.

[SLG]

JJ just described me to a T. I think it explains a lot of the issues I have. I was actually taught to shoot like this growing up but it was a different style of shooting. All the shooting I was around was bullseye.

So what's the best way to break the habit of pinning the trigger? I've been doing this for 35 years or so.

The Now drill, described elsewhere, works very well.

[breakingtime91]

JJ just described me to a T. I think it explains a lot of the issues I have. I was actually taught to shoot like this growing up but it was a different style of shooting. All the shooting I was around was bullseye.

So what's the best way to break the habit of pinning the trigger? I've been doing this for 35 years or so.

I have this issue also (Marine corps taught to shoot by pinning the trigger). What I have been doing is a crap load of dry fire, trigger press, get off the trigger. This works but obviously without feedback, what I do live fire is work a 5 inch circle at 5 yards. I start with two rounds, then 3, then 4, then 5. By doing that I am working tempo and trigger reset. I then go into shooting 1 inch circles at 3 yards and 2 inch circles at 5 and 7 yards. By doing this I am still ensuring that I am reseting and prepping the trigger the same way.

hopefully someone else has a more efficient way!

[GJM]

Manny Bragg teaches a drill to work this, using a plate rack. After shooting the first plate, the goal is to have the trigger reset and the slack out of the trigger prior to the sights settling on the next plate.

[ER_STL]

Very quick or compressed time to first shot and I obviously pull all the way through. All follow up shots are a reset during recoil where the the slack is taken out of the trigger during recoil and the trigger is at the wall prior to the weapon settling post recoil. Once the sights settle the correct amount of pressure is put on the trigger to break the next shot.

This is a video I did recently on resetting during recoil....

I was taught to run the trigger this way the first time I sought professional instruction years ago but it still somewhat confuses me. How do you apply this technique at speed? Once the shot splits start dropping down into the .20s and .10s, is it still possible to break a shot, release the trigger, take up the slack during recoil, pause at the wall and then break the next shot once you reacquire the front sight? Admittedly I'm not nearly as far in my shooting journey as the more experienced shooters on the board but when I try this at speed I feel like I'm deliberately trying to introduce a pause in the trigger press at the wall.

I'm finding that it's simpler for me personally to leave the trigger fully extended until I commit to shooting and then roll through the press in one motion - often times at a quick pace for closer targets. I'm due for additional professional instruction but additional feedback on the board would be interesting...

Thanks!

[Bart Carter]

In watching some of Rob Leatham's videos, when seen in slow motion, you can see that his finger comes completely off the trigger in between shots. It looks like he is slapping the trigger. He says that you should hold the pistol on target and press, saying that the most important part is keeping the pistol from moving. "Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly."

It seems to me that if you can hold your pistol on target, it doesn't matter how hard or fast you press the trigger. Or even at what point you do it. He is nowhere near the "wall" when he "presses" with one quick motion from his finger completely off the trigger.

[GJM]

Robbie is my friend, and the single best technical shooting instructor on the planet. I have shot his single stack pistol, and there is not a wall to be found. :)

[Mr_White]

JJ just described me to a T. I think it explains a lot of the issues I have. I was actually taught to shoot like this growing up but it was a different style of shooting. All the shooting I was around was bullseye.

So what's the best way to break the habit of pinning the trigger? I've been doing this for 35 years or so.

The NOW drill suggestion is a good one. You can work that in dry or live fire. Here's a version of that we did for the Drill of the Week: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23545-Week-196-Jerk-The-Trigger

This is a drill I have liked that attempts to work on some of this in dry fire. The act of driving the front sight back to the target spot is different than driving the gun out of real recoil, but it is good for working on seeing the front sight in recoil but returning to the target spot and resetting and prepping/pressing the trigger in accordance with the ongoing sight picture. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22272-Week-182-Driving-The-Gun-Single-Target

More generally, I think you should try to shoot faster on a target problem that doesn't really challenge your trigger control. I was taught the pin-and-reset originally, but found myself unconsciously moving beyond that when I tried to go faster. I think the key there is to give yourself a shooting problem where you can easily make hits when running the trigger straight back as fast as your finger goes.

[Mr_White]

Well, I think trying to work the trigger at the same speed at all distances is not the best way to go. I try not to stop my press, but I definitely vary the speed based on the needs of my sights, which of course varies from target to target and distance to distance.

I agree with this ^^^


my 25 yard groups are sub 3" (5 shot). 100 yards are sub 6". Others on here can shoot tighter, no doubt, but I don't think any of them maintain a 5 yard target speed at 25. It is an interesting idea though.

Not me, I'm jealous. :) For me, sub 3" at 25 yards is doing pretty darn well. I don't think I've ever measured a group at 100. Why do you think you shoot proportionately better at 100 yards than 25 yards?

[Surf]

I was taught to run the trigger this way the first time I sought professional instruction years ago but it still somewhat confuses me. How do you apply this technique at speed? Once the shot splits start dropping down into the .20s and .10s, is it still possible to break a shot, release the trigger, take up the slack during recoil, pause at the wall and then break the next shot once you reacquire the front sight? Admittedly I'm not nearly as far in my shooting journey as the more experienced shooters on the board but when I try this at speed I feel like I'm deliberately trying to introduce a pause in the trigger press at the wall.

I'm finding that it's simpler for me personally to leave the trigger fully extended until I commit to shooting and then roll through the press in one motion - often times at a quick pace for closer targets. I'm due for additional professional instruction but additional feedback on the board would be interesting...

Thanks!Yes this technique can be applied at speed, but when splits get into the low teens it is pretty much impossible to be able to stop finger movement for a prep as there is no real pause so to speak. If you are running .10's on a pistol that is darn amazing. For myself, in the low to mid teens I am not doing anything different in my technique it is just that the prep phase has no pause and the trigger finger just keeps moving. People far over think this too much and get stuck on thinking that there is only one way to skin it.


In watching some of Rob Leatham's videos, when seen in slow motion, you can see that his finger comes completely off the trigger in between shots. It looks like he is slapping the trigger. He says that you should hold the pistol on target and press, saying that the most important part is keeping the pistol from moving. "Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly."

It seems to me that if you can hold your pistol on target, it doesn't matter how hard or fast you press the trigger. Or even at what point you do it. He is nowhere near the "wall" when he "presses" with one quick motion from his finger completely off the trigger.When I run my high end 1911's or race style 2011's there is virtually NO take up, minuscule sear movement to when the hammer releases, virtually NO over travel and distance to reset is extremely short. It is virtually impossible for me to run these triggers without breaking finger contact as in the same manner you are seeing Robbie Leatham running his trigger. Also I probably could not get away with running a hinged striker fired trigger nearly as well as he can do it either. Nor could 99.9999% of the population. Even thought I may run the trigger similar, my results will with high probability never achieve his level of skill.

I really dislike when people try to compare what Rob Leatham may or may not do as a shooter. I like to play basketball but I sure as hell can't get away with the things that a Jordan or James can do, nor can I play football like a Montana or Taylor, or play baseball like Ruth or Mays. Using Robbie Leatham as a comparison is similar to using any other pro athlete in their sport that is considered an all time legend. Sure we might strive for that kind of technical greatness and we might even run triggers in similar fashions, but to think that we can mimic their abilities and hope to achieve the same results is great, but more than likely not a realistic achievement for us 99.9999% of the shooting population.

[SLG]

Rob does slap the trigger, and does come off the trigger, and neither hurts his shooting. I also come off the trigger in reset, but since I'm shooting stock triggers, I do not slap them on purpose.


Mr_White, actually, that sentence is misleading, and I didn't catch it before hitting send. With duty guns, (Glock) I am below 3" most of the time. With better shooters, (Sig, 1911) I am closer to 2". With serious shooters, like my 629, a flat 2" or smaller is possible "most" of the time. At 100 yards, my sub 6" groups come from guns like the 629, not my Glocks. Nonetheless, I still shoot proportionally more accurately at 100, as you pointed out. So, comparing apples to apples, say my 629, I think that at 100, I have less visual feedback from the target, which makes it easier to concentrate on a good break. Also in this particular case (shooting for fun at my range at home), my 100 yard aiming point may be a bit easier to hold on, as the steel fits nicely around the width of the front sight, rather than me trying to keep it centered on a bull at 25. Finally, I think shooting at distances like 100 and 200 is actually much easier than most realize, and this reduces the pressure that many put on themselves at 25 and 50.

IME, G34's tend to be less accurate than G17's or 19's, though that may not hold true as much anymore, IDK. Certainly for me, I can never seem to get an advantage out of the longer guns. Maybe try a shorter gun and see where you are at? If it is pure group shooting ability, maybe try a known accurate gun and see what you can do. I imagine you can shoot more accurately than you might think. Target shape and size also matter quite a bit, as does lighting. Indoors, most people tend to shoot worse.

[RJ]

Folks,
Just wanted to thank all of you for your wonderful posts. Learned a lot, and I'm very grateful,
Randy

Seriously.

This site and in particular these nuanced discussions of technique are fantastic. Adding my appreciation as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SLG]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23545-Week-196-Jerk-The-Trigger


I just want to add that this drill, though a very good, foundational type drill, is not the Now drill. The now drill is a live fire drill, done at close range on a small target. The goal is to have the shooter get to the wall as fast as possible, and when the trigger is at the wall, the coach says Now!. The shooter then fires the round and tries to get his sights back on target and his trigger to the wall as fast as possible, so that the coach will say Now! Again. The shooters goal is to shoot really fast, and the only way to do that is to have the coach say Now! really fast. The coach will only say Now! when the shooter is back at the wall.

This drill is one of the fastest ways there is to teach correct trigger manipulation, and I have now done this with hundreds of shooters. I learned it at Midsouth, where they have had great success with untold thousands of shooters over the years. As a single drill to improve shooting at speed, it may be the best.

I understand that Midsouth now calls a different drill the Now! drill. Too bad, and imo, not correct to do so.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I just want to echo my appreciation for this 10/10 thread!

[psalms144.1]

The "New Now" drill at Midsouth is part of the operator standards. It's simple - with a fully loaded (magazine at capacity and chamber loaded) holstered pistol, on the start beep, draw and fire all rounds into a 6" target, conduct and emergency reload, and fire one additional round in 11 seconds or less. Any misses or overtime is a fail.

Funny story, when I went to Midsouth the first time, I was the guinea pig for the drill for my crew. I misunderstood the instructions, when Randy said "empty the magazine, reload and fire one more" I thought he meant fire one more MAGAZINE. So I did. 31 rounds of 9mm from a Gen4 G19 in under 11 seconds, all hits. I think my nickname for the rest of the week was "Cyclic..."

I agree, the "Old Now" sounds like a great drill - assuming you have a good coach/instructor who knows how to run it.

[SLG]

The "New Now" drill at Midsouth is part of the operator standards. It's simple - with a fully loaded (magazine at capacity and chamber loaded) holstered pistol, on the start beep, draw and fire all rounds into a 6" target, conduct and emergency reload, and fire one additional round in 11 seconds or less. Any misses or overtime is a fail.

Funny story, when I went to Midsouth the first time, I was the guinea pig for the drill for my crew. I misunderstood the instructions, when Randy said "empty the magazine, reload and fire one more" I thought he meant fire one more MAGAZINE. So I did. 31 rounds of 9mm from a Gen4 G19 in under 11 seconds, all hits. I think my nickname for the rest of the week was "Cyclic..."

I agree, the "Old Now" sounds like a great drill - assuming you have a good coach/instructor who knows how to run it.

Thats what Ive been told. The carbine version is even dumber, imo. The original Now drill is really one of the best trigger control drills ever done. I assume that John Shaw developed it, but I dont know for sure. For Midsouth to change it to..."that" is almost as bad as S&W calling plastic integral laser sight guns "Bodyguards".

[11B10]

In the relatively short time I've been lurking here, this thread is one of those "Hall of Fame'ers" that I've come to study and will revisit in the future. While I sometimes forget just how deep the knowledge and experience ocean is here, I know I love swimming in it. Thanks to all for once again sharing so selflessly.

[MGW]

The Now drill, described elsewhere, works very well.

I need to come up and shoot with you sometime SLG. The more I shoot the more I realize I don't know much.

[SLG]

I need to come up and shoot with you sometime SLG. The more I shoot the more I realize I don't know much.

My current rate is 1,000,000 per hour, but for a pf'er, im sure we can work something out;-)

[Bart Carter]

...I really dislike when people try to compare what Rob Leatham may or may not do as a shooter. I like to play basketball but I sure as hell can't get away with the things that a Jordan or James can do, nor can I play football like a Montana or Taylor, or play baseball like Ruth or Mays. Using Robbie Leatham as a comparison is similar to using any other pro athlete in their sport that is considered an all time legend. Sure we might strive for that kind of technical greatness and we might even run triggers in similar fashions, but to think that we can mimic their abilities and hope to achieve the same results is great, but more than likely not a realistic achievement for us 99.9999% of the shooting population.

You entirely misread my post. I did not in any way suggest that anyone should slap a a trigger because Rob Latham shoots that way.

The videos were his instructional videos where he was teaching the importance of keeping the pistol from moving. "Try crushing the handgun and sweeping through the trigger stroke quickly." The fact the Rob's finger came completely off the trigger was simply to emphasize the fact that keeping the pistol from moving was the important part, not how you press the trigger.

Also, Rob was using factory SA pistols, not some custom triggers without a "wall."

[blues]

Yep...I took it to mean that there are many roads to Dublin...and that's a good thing since we can't all mimic the abilities of those with far greater skills or attributes than our own. (Figured "Dublin" would be apropos given the proximity to the approaching day.)

[Mr_White]

IME, G34's tend to be less accurate than G17's or 19's, though that may not hold true as much anymore, IDK. Certainly for me, I can never seem to get an advantage out of the longer guns. Maybe try a shorter gun and see where you are at? If it is pure group shooting ability, maybe try a known accurate gun and see what you can do. I imagine you can shoot more accurately than you might think. Target shape and size also matter quite a bit, as does lighting. Indoors, most people tend to shoot worse.

I don't really have an opinion as to which Glock is more mechanically accurate - it may well not be the 34, and I've heard some plausible assertions that it is actually the 26. But once we get out of untimed group shooting and into practical shooting with time pressure, I have no doubt that I shoot the 34 better. That's from a combination of subjective impressions on my part and more objective and easily compared results in GSSF. Totally agree about lighting, indoors vs. outdoors, target shape and all that.


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23545-Week-196-Jerk-The-Trigger


I just want to add that this drill, though a very good, foundational type drill, is not the Now drill. The now drill is a live fire drill, done at close range on a small target. The goal is to have the shooter get to the wall as fast as possible, and when the trigger is at the wall, the coach says Now!. The shooter then fires the round and tries to get his sights back on target and his trigger to the wall as fast as possible, so that the coach will say Now! Again. The shooters goal is to shoot really fast, and the only way to do that is to have the coach say Now! really fast. The coach will only say Now! when the shooter is back at the wall.

This drill is one of the fastest ways there is to teach correct trigger manipulation, and I have now done this with hundreds of shooters. I learned it at Midsouth, where they have had great success with untold thousands of shooters over the years. As a single drill to improve shooting at speed, it may be the best.

I understand that Midsouth now calls a different drill the Now! drill. Too bad, and imo, not correct to do so.

Interesting, thanks for the clarification on the drill - I totally misunderstood what you meant by the Now drill.

[45dotACP]

IME, G34's tend to be less accurate than G17's or 19's, though that may not hold true as much anymore, IDK. Certainly for me, I can never seem to get an advantage out of the longer guns. Maybe try a shorter gun and see where you are at? If it is pure group shooting ability, maybe try a known accurate gun and see what you can do. I imagine you can shoot more accurately than you might think. Target shape and size also matter quite a bit, as does lighting. Indoors, most people tend to shoot worse.

Man I was just musing about this in your post modern Derringer thread...

I'm really starting to like my G19 as a do it all gun and may even use it as my gamer gun just because I like how it seems to cycle faster and more consistently than the 34.

I should start running the 19 in classifiers just to see if the hit factors lend credence to my subjective feelings tho.

[Sal Picante]

Man I was just musing about this in your post modern Derringer thread...

I'm really starting to like my G19 as a do it all gun and may even use it as my gamer gun just because I like how it seems to cycle faster and more consistently than the 34.

I should start running the 19 in classifiers just to see if the hit factors lend credence to my subjective feelings tho.

Sidenote... Back when I shot Glocks, I almost always just shot the G22 vs the G35. Something about the balance, the slide return, etc just felt "better".
(The G23 grip wasn't "right" and cut up my hand a lot... I have fat hands.)

[Gio]

I don't really have an opinion as to which Glock is more mechanically accurate - it may well not be the 34, and I've heard some plausible assertions that it is actually the 26. But once we get out of untimed group shooting and into practical shooting with time pressure, I have no doubt that I shoot the 34 better. That's from a combination of subjective impressions on my part and more objective and easily compared results in GSSF. Totally agree about lighting, indoors vs. outdoors, target shape and all that.



Interesting, thanks for the clarification on the drill - I totally misunderstood what you meant by the Now drill.

There is definitely a difference in mechanical vs practical accuracy. I have shot some amazing slow fire rested groups from my glock 26, some of them hovering around 3" at 50 yds, while I have to work to keep them around 3" at 25 yds with my g34. Some of that may be the sights (thinner fiber front with wider rear notch), but I think the 26 is also more mechanically accurate. I certainly can't shoot the 26 as well on a 25 yd bill drill or a 7 yd Garcia dot drill though.

[Chipster]

EL also does a phenomenal job of explaining trigger reset like Sean M & JJ. He did the "now" drill during one of his classes I took just like SLG described it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9qbCSpcrOsw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ahDcWjFZI

[Lomshek]

The now drill is a live fire drill, done at close range on a small target. The goal is to have the shooter get to the wall as fast as possible, and when the trigger is at the wall, the coach says Now!. The shooter then fires the round and tries to get his sights back on target and his trigger to the wall as fast as possible, so that the coach will say Now! Again. The shooters goal is to shoot really fast, and the only way to do that is to have the coach say Now! really fast. The coach will only say Now! when the shooter is back at the wall.


Am I understanding it right that the shooter shoots, resets during recoil and gets to the wall as fast as possible then pauses and the coach yells Now! as soon as he sees that the shooter has paused?
When the shooter resumes the trigger press from the wall is their goal to get through the press as fast as they can and still probably hit the target or as fast as they can for sure hit the target?
Are we talking 3 yards on a 2" target?

I'd like to try this if I can but don't want to waste time doing a drill wrong and missing something. Thanks!

[SLG]

Am I understanding it right that the shooter shoots, resets during recoil and gets to the wall as fast as possible then pauses and the coach yells Now! as soon as he sees that the shooter has paused?
When the shooter resumes the trigger press from the wall is their goal to get through the press as fast as they can and still probably hit the target or as fast as they can for sure hit the target?
Are we talking 3 yards on a 2" target?

I'd like to try this if I can but don't want to waste time doing a drill wrong and missing something. Thanks!

Yes.:-)

We find that 3 yards a good place to do this, and the goal is to hit the target as fast as they can pull the trigger. Almost everyone can hit a 3" circle really well, at full speed. That's the point of the drill, to show that a surprise break is not essential. To show that the way to shoot fast, and accurately, is to reset your trigger under recoil and have very little left to pull when the sights settle. To show that a really fast trigger pull will still result in a tight group (at close range).

Once a shooter has experienced this (it usually takes 3 full mags to get the point, some less, some more), they then physically understand what they need to do to shoot fast and accurately, and can start applying that as appropriate to the rest of their shooting.


We teach stance and grip, then sights, then trigger control. A good stance and grip are needed to control the gun, of course, but once they have that, full speed trigger pulling is easy.

This is where "you get what you pay for." Learning on the internet is great, for some people at some level(s), but being taught by a pro, under their eye, is critical to fast, safe development.

The coach in this drill needs to know what to do to not get shot, as well as benefit the shooter.

[Sal Picante]

I love watching this old guy prep and shoot bullseye... Watch his triggering technique change from rapid to slow fire. Pretty interesting.
(He dicks around with his Kahr for a few rounds, but then shoots a CZ pretty soon after that... Feel free to fast forward)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfTNjcp5wmI

[Lomshek]

Yes.:-)

We find that 3 yards a good place to do this, and the goal is to hit the target as fast as they can pull the trigger. Almost everyone can hit a 3" circle really well, at full speed. That's the point of the drill, to show that a surprise break is not essential. To show that the way to shoot fast, and accurately, is to reset your trigger under recoil and have very little left to pull when the sights settle. To show that a really fast trigger pull will still result in a tight group (at close range).

Once a shooter has experienced this (it usually takes 3 full mags to get the point, some less, some more), they then physically understand what they need to do to shoot fast and accurately, and can start applying that as appropriate to the rest of their shooting.


We teach stance and grip, then sights, then trigger control. A good stance and grip are needed to control the gun, of course, but once they have that, full speed trigger pulling is easy.

This is where "you get what you pay for." Learning on the internet is great, for some people at some level(s), but being taught by a pro, under their eye, is critical to fast, safe development.

The coach in this drill needs to know what to do to not get shot, as well as benefit the shooter.

Thank you! That part about the coach not getting shot sounds important! I'm guessing the coach should stand at the shooter's weak side close in watching the trigger finger and trigger?

It'll be awhile before I can do a class but I'll do this drill and see if I can get it right. Any interest in training for less than $1,000,000? :cool:

[blues]

Thank you! That part about the coach not getting shot sounds important! I'm guessing the coach should stand at the shooter's weak side close in watching the trigger finger and trigger?

It'll be awhile before I can do a class but I'll do this drill and see if I can get it right. Any interest in training for less than $1,000,000? :cool:

Sounds like he left the door open for some dickering:


My current rate is 1,000,000 per hour, but for a pf'er, im sure we can work something out;-)

Such a deal! :cool:

[Shootingrn]

Around the turn of the year, I started working with a small j frame as an experiment to choose between it and a g43 for lower profile carry options. What started as an experiment quickly turned into an all out revamping of what I thought pistol shooting was about.

Experiencing how much the smaller handguns accentuated any flaws in technique was very telling and humbling and led me to some serious introspection of what was going wrong and why. This led me to really dive in and take a look at what was causing my problems and in turn make a decision to work on my weaknesses of trigger control and grip.

I decided to dig out my 92fs and commit to it as a learning opportunity and some nostalgia from my service days added to it. Plus the added safety measures for AIWB and other considerations had me looking at other options outside of SFA's.

After suffering through learning the new mechanism, I reached out to somebody I really respect and they responded by telling me that the trigger is just a speed bump and to pull all the way through it and don't stop. Simple to hear but I had this mental block at the concept of it. So I just started doing the work and pulling the trigger and soon enough started to see the connection between the trigger pull, grip, and front sight. I really think this was because the longer trigger pull gave me a longer cycle time to observe the interaction between all the fundamentals of firing a shot.

In the past it has always been take up to the wall then finish when ready when addressing first shots and anything outside of rapid fire. Now the wall is the end of the trigger pull. Its been a "free your mind and your finger will follow" revelation for me. Shooting a DA/SA has made me a better shooter all around. I shoot all my Glocks better now and where I used to ride the reset and get caught on different guns modifying that technique to one where I just about have my finger come totally forward has mitigated short stroking to zero.

So for me it's definitely been a total rethinking of what trigger pull is. Now, for me, the wall is the end of the trigger pull.

This has been an awesome thread to read and this site an awesome resource!!!

[SLG]

Thank you! That part about the coach not getting shot sounds important! I'm guessing the coach should stand at the shooter's weak side close in watching the trigger finger and trigger?

It'll be awhile before I can do a class but I'll do this drill and see if I can get it right. Any interest in training for less than $1,000,000? :cool:

In all seriousness, I don't charge pf for any training, but you get what you pay for. In my case, that means a tough schedule to work around, and my snark opinions.

I'm always happy to shoot with guys from the forum.

[Lomshek]

In all seriousness, I don't charge pf for any training, but you get what you pay for. In my case, that means a tough schedule to work around, and my snark opinions.

I'm always happy to shoot with guys from the forum.

I'm rehabbing some elbow tendinitis so that it hopefully doesn't feel like I'm being stabbed with an ice pick every time I fire a round and would be glad to take you up once that's resolved. It's definitely compromised my grip strength.

I think you live somewhere a couple hours north of me if I'm remembering what I'd read somewhere. I'd always be happy to host a PF Midwest get together at "my" range about 1 1/2 hours south of Overland Park too if that's preferable!

[SLG]

I'm rehabbing some elbow tendinitis so that it hopefully doesn't feel like I'm being stabbed with an ice pick every time I fire a round and would be glad to take you up once that's resolved. It's definitely compromised my grip strength.

I think you live somewhere a couple hours north of me if I'm remembering what I'd read somewhere. I'd always be happy to host a PF Midwest get together at "my" range about 1 1/2 hours south of Overland Park too if that's preferable!

If you do, I'd love to make it.

[BN]

Target shape and size also matter quite a bit, as does lighting.

I can shoot much tighter groups at longer distance on just an IDPA/IPSC target than I can on a B-8. With my vision the B-8 is just a blob, while I can make out my sights against the bigger target.

[GRV]

My current rate is 1,000,000 per hour, but for a pf'er, im sure we can work something out;-)

Any interest in training for less than $1,000,000?

Wait, he was talking in dollars!? Fuck...there are three tractor trailers full of white rice driving cross country right now that I need to go track down...

[GRV]

Gio, can you explain your SFA, action-shooting trigger press technique in a little more detail? Also, how does it vary with target difficulty, distance, etc.?


ETA: Some of the details I'm interested in are when during the draw/pressout you move your finger into the trigger guard and when you start applying pressure. Also, whether you begin your press with your finger resting on the trigger (but no slack taken out) or if you begin the press through with your finger not even in contact with the trigger yet.

[Lomshek]

Yes.:-)

We find that 3 yards a good place to do this, and the goal is to hit the target as fast as they can pull the trigger. Almost everyone can hit a 3" circle really well, at full speed. That's the point of the drill, to show that a surprise break is not essential. To show that the way to shoot fast, and accurately, is to reset your trigger under recoil and have very little left to pull when the sights settle. To show that a really fast trigger pull will still result in a tight group (at close range).

Serious question - Can the reset under recoil method be adapted or taught to work with the accuracy standard in Appleseed?

I've been modifying certain things in the Appleseed doctrine to reflect the way things are done now rather than how they were taught in Marine boot camp in 1950. Things like more body behind the gun instead of the 30 degrees off target angle for prone or having students experiment with trigger finger placement instead of mandating first pad of the trigger finger centered on the trigger to name a couple.

Appleseed is real big on pinning the trigger to the rear to encourage proper follow through rather than the reflexive "hot stove" twitch we see lots of shooters do where they let go of the trigger as the gun fires and inevitably disturb the gun because of sympathetic muscle movement.

I spent about 100 rounds yesterday trying to make myself reset under recoil with the pistol and got it right some of the time but am going to need some serious repetitions to break the old habit of waiting for the sights to settle. I know that and waiting to settle before transitioning to a new target kill me in USPSA matches (not to mention just sucking in general).

[SLG]

Lomshek,

I can shoot Appleseed with a fast reset just fine, but I find that my reset, like most other aspects (draws, re-holstering, etc) automatically adjusts to the demands of the problem. When I'm running a bolt gun as a practical rifle, my manipulation is fast enough that it is kind of like resetting the trigger. Kind of. When shooting a gun for LR precision, I pin the trigger and don't move anything for a second. No issues switching back and forth as needed, and it really is unconcious for me.

[Gio]

Gio, can you explain your SFA, action-shooting trigger press technique in a little more detail? Also, how does it vary with target difficulty, distance, etc.?


ETA: Some of the details I'm interested in are when during the draw/pressout you move your finger into the trigger guard and when you start applying pressure. Also, whether you begin your press with your finger resting on the trigger (but no slack taken out) or if you begin the press through with your finger not even in contact with the trigger yet.

In general, my finger starts to make contact with the trigger as the gun is presented out toward the target. I have a good slow motion video from a match where my trigger finger makes contact as the muzzle is pointed toward the targets. "When" I start pressing the trigger depends on target difficulty. For a wide open target at 7 yds or closer my goal is to have the shot break as soon as my sights hit an acceptable sight picture, so I am pressing through the slack as the gun is being indexed out on the target. On a harder target like 25 yds, my finger will go to the trigger at the same point but won't start pressing until the sights are settling.

Here is a still photo from a slow motion video at the earliest point in the draw I can see my finger touching the trigger.

14981

[GJM]

I enjoy most all technical shooting threads, including this one, although I suspect they are most useful for those that already understand the subject. Learning to press the trigger, by reading the internet, is likely to be about as successful as learning to hover a helicopter by reading how on the internet. There really is a reason that instructors have not been made obsolete by the web.

[Lomshek]

I enjoy most all technical shooting threads, including this one, although I suspect they are most useful for those that already understand the subject. Learning to press the trigger, by reading the internet, is likely to be about as successful as learning to hover a helicopter by reading how on the internet. There really is a reason that instructors have not been made obsolete by the web.

Yes but a guy who's already shooting to a mediocre (PF mediocre) level can explore new methods and adapt their technique based on what they read here. That's not the same as a great instructor but it's far preferable to not learning or exploring better methods.

[Gio]

Yes but a guy who's already shooting to a mediocre (PF mediocre) level can explore new methods and adapt their technique based on what they read here. That's not the same as a great instructor but it's far preferable to not learning or exploring better methods.

Exactly. While a good instructor may be able to convey an idea better in person by physically showing you, it doesn't mean you can't figure it out on your own. Plenty of people can find benefit in reading books, talking to experts online here, watching YouTube videos on the topics, asking for feedback and target/video critique, and then putting in the repetitions live fire and dry fire to see if it works for them. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you go to a great instructor if you're not willing to put in the hundreds of hours of practice and repetition to get better; you'll never see much improvement.

[randyflycaster]

I have to say I've learned a lot from boards like this one; and I've had coaches that helped me very little or not at all.
And yes, I've even had coaches that have made things worse.
Randy

[GRV]

In general, my finger starts to make contact with the trigger as the gun is presented out toward the target. I have a good slow motion video from a match where my trigger finger makes contact as the muzzle is pointed toward the targets. "When" I start pressing the trigger depends on target difficulty. For a wide open target at 7 yds or closer my goal is to have the shot break as soon as my sights hit an acceptable sight picture, so I am pressing through the slack as the gun is being indexed out on the target. On a harder target like 25 yds, my finger will go to the trigger at the same point but won't start pressing until the sights are settling.

Here is a still photo from a slow motion video at the earliest point in the draw I can see my finger touching the trigger.

14981

Great shot, also great video :cool:

You've said that you press through the slack and "wall" all in one smooth continuous motion. People also, for the most part, seem to be on the same page of having a constantly increasing amount of force on the trigger.

However, the slack and wall provide different resistances and give different sensations. Do you perceive your finger ramming straight through at a constant speed, unphased by the presence of the wall, or do you have a sensation of your finger being slowed down by the extra resistance of the wall and gradually stacking force against that resistance?