So I broke my FNS-9L.....

[SsevenN]

By shooting it, I got to about 16,000 live rounds through it, and about 4,000 dryfires (with snap caps) when the trigger stopped resetting.

I took down the striker assembly and found the striker return spring had blown apart, and the firing pin block was lodged into the slide. No problems man, I got decent reps on it before a small parts failure, infact I was impressed because I could still manually reset the trigger and shoot the gun.

I jumped through FNH's website's hoops to get it returned for repair - gun is warrantied.

Fast forward a week later, I get a call about an hour ago from FNH informing me it's going to cost me $370.00 for a new fucking slide. What the actual fuck?

In the most calm manner I could I explained to the lady that I know this is not her fault, but this was totally unacceptable. The gun broke through normal use, from straight up being shot. I explained that I have 4 other FNH handguns, and I shoot a metric ton, and very soon another one was going to break and there is no way I'm going to constantly eat the bill for fixing warrantied wear and tear breakages.

I politely asked to speak to someone higher up, and she told me I would get a call back.

I am completely beside myself, I have over $3,000 worth of FNH pistols. At the moment I have 3 custom holsters in the works and a EFK after market threaded barrel on the way. My brain is going to explode, there is no way I'm going to eat recurring big dollar costs for normal parts failure that is completely the result of regular use.

I guess I need two things from you guys:

1) a shoulder to cry on
2) your opinion - am I out of line? how would you react? Is there anything else I should currently be doing other than making a stink on this forum and fuming?

If they put their foot down and refuse to cover the repair I'm going to have a breakdown. Shooting is my life, I'm the type who will most likely never get married or have kids. I have a really big "god hole" and I fill it with my passion for pistol shooting, this is like finding out your S/O has been cheating on you for me.

EDIT: I removed the pic I posted because it wasn't the correct one, I'll post the correct pic when I'm back at home and have access to it.

[JHC]

A slide wrecked because the trigger return spring broke sounds like warranty covered to me. Damn.

[okie john]

I had a similar problem with a CZ 550 in 9.3x62 gave out in the middle of a hunt. I did my due diligence and gave CZ a chance to respond, which they failed to do in a responsible manner. I had a thread about the issue going on a forum that had a bunch of CZ fans for dangerous-game rifles, so I sent CZ a link to the thread. A couple of days later, I got an email from the president of CZ USA and together we got the problem unscrewed.


Okie John

[Edwin]

If the slide gets wrecked because the striker return spring broke, is that really the platform you want to be using?

[SsevenN]

I had a similar problem with a CZ 550 in 9.3x62 gave out in the middle of a hunt. I did my due diligence and gave CZ a chance to respond, which they failed to do in a responsible manner. I had a thread about the issue going on a forum that had a bunch of CZ fans for dangerous-game rifles, so I sent CZ a link to the thread. A couple of days later, I got an email from the president of CZ USA and together we got the problem unscrewed.


Okie John

Good call, I just sent them a link to this thread, if this doesn't motivate them I'll put this thread up on every corner of the internet and link them to all of it.

[SsevenN]

edit: I need to cool off

[Edwin]

I have a feeling it's the lodged firing pin block that junked the slide.
Same question still applies.

[SsevenN]

Same question still applies.


I'm willing to chalk that up as a fluke, I've had resoundingly positive experience and reliability with my other 3 FNS guns.

I just think it's fucking absurd I should have to pay to fix the issue.

EDIT: pic is relevant, with the exception of this massive failure I've run these guns really really hard with flawless results.

I even sent them this fucking picture in the return box with a note praising their design and quality and what a fan boy I am.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/20160807_161834_zpssnwgh22a.jpg

[Gray222]

Maybe they will cover it?

If not, I agree it's completely unacceptable.

Blast them over all forums with photos and proof.

Other than that not really much more you can do. They are a big company who doesn't really care about you or me.

[SsevenN]

Maybe they will cover it?

If not, I agree it's completely unacceptable.

Blast them over all forums with photos and proof.

Other than that not really much more you can do. They are a big company who doesn't really care about you or me.

If they don't backtrack almost immediately and fall over apologizing I'm going to sell all my FNH related products at a huge loss on gun broker explaining the price is so low because they are hot garbage. And yes I will carry this tale to every corner of the web. Then I'm going to immediate burn a hole through my credit card buying every model of VP9 available.

[hiro]

What's the recommended interval for replacing the spring that failed and, if you've reached that interval, was it replaced?

[LittleLebowski]

I've passed this on to someone who might be able to help, maybe not. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

[hiro]

And dude, take a deep breath, slow down.

Things break when you use them, nothing lasts forever.

The question is did the part last it's expected lifetime and if it didn't are there any other extraneous circumstances that may have caused the failure?

It's a straightforward process of elimination, there are things that it's hard to know but it can be narrowed down to a reasoned cause.

[SsevenN]

I've passed this on to someone who might be able to help, maybe not. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, that is really good looking out. My blood pressure just got a little bit closer to normal.

[SsevenN]

And dude, take a deep breath, slow down.

Things break when you use them, nothing lasts forever.

The question is did the part last it's expected lifetime and if it didn't are there any other extraneous circumstances that may have caused the failure?

It's a straightforward process of elimination, there are things that it's hard to know but it can be narrowed down to a reasoned cause.

I'm not upset at all that it broke.

I'm upset because I am now staring down a financial cliff of invested $$$ and time in this platform, with a ton of aftermarket parts currently in limbo, and if they don't make good with the fix I am going to have burn a ton of money getting away from the platform and burn tons of time re-training and worst of all - now I don't even want to shoot my FNS-40L, I have this terrible taste in my mouth. My weekend plans are completely ruined and I'm directionless.

[hiro]

I don't know if it's the case with FNH, but this sort of information is, in many cases, difficult for the average consumer to get.

A quick Google search found nothing, I'm sure if you asked FN, they'd say take it to an authorised service centre or such.Perhaps someone on the forum knows?

[SsevenN]

A quick Google search found nothing, I'm sure if you asked FN, they'd say take it to an authorised service centre or such.Perhaps someone on the forum knows?

Call and ask FNH about the FNS lifespan and they will basically tell you "it lasts forever" - that's what I've heard on the FN forum (or somewhere else - it's been years). Who knows if it's true or not, but they really don't expect many failures from these guns.

Their stupid slogan is "over 400,000 rounds and counting" or some such.

[Nephrology]

So I am a little confused - what about the spring makes it impossible for you to simply replace yourself? do they not sell spare parts, or is the position/nature of the return spring such that it requires factory level work to repair? The only FN I've ever shot was a FiveseveN I put maybe 15 rounds through so I have no idea how their design works.

Either way agreed 100% that is ridiculous. Not only is it silly for them to charge you to repair a gun you broke through normal use, but $320 to fix a broken spring is unbelievable.

In any case... you have no shortage of striker platforms to pick between should you end up jumping ship.

Definitely no shortage of Glocks floating around right now :D

[Trukinjp13]

There used to be a fn dude floating around on here. I hope they get you fixed up. Spring breaking not a big deal. Spring breaking and jacking gun up is. I also am curious on what they say for replacement. When I had mine it was pretty hard to get info on her. Nice part about most companies is they let you know. It is like changing oil or flushing trans fluid. Good maintenance will make a longer lasting more reliable product. Not letting the consumer know intervals is just a easy way of shooting yourself in the foot.

[SsevenN]

So I am a little confused - what about the spring makes it impossible for you to simply replace yourself? do they not sell spare parts, or is the position/nature of the return spring such that it requires factory level work to repair? The only FN I've ever shot was a FiveseveN I put maybe 15 rounds through so I have no idea how their design works.

Either way agreed 100% that is ridiculous. Not only is it silly for them to charge you to repair a gun you broke through normal use, but $320 to fix a broken spring is unbelievable.

In any case... you have no shortage of striker platforms to pick between should you end up jumping ship.

Definitely no shortage of Glocks floating around right now :D

Neph I don't know, I can only guess that the lodged firing pin block is the issue, I would guess they can't remove it or something so replacing the whole slide is the solution.

Also it should be noted - while the striker return spring was clearly exploded - I am not an armorer so it is only an educated guess that the trigger was no longer resetting because of that part failure, I wanted my gun back in operation as quick as possible so I thought it was best just to send it in and let them cover all the bases.

EDIT: to clarify - the striker return spring is easy to access and swap out and if the firing pin block wasn't jammed I might have gone that route - I didn't really get the chance to make up my mind

[SsevenN]

There used to be a fn dude floating around on here. I hope they get you fixed up. Spring breaking not a big deal. Spring breaking and jacking gun up is. I also am curious on what they say for replacement. When I had mine it was pretty hard to get info on her. Nice part about most companies is they let you know. It is like changing oil or flushing trans fluid. Good maintenance will make a longer lasting more reliable product. Not letting the consumer know intervals is just a easy way of shooting yourself in the foot.

I guess I should have formatted my original post more clear - it's very reasonable to assume the broken striker return spring isn't the primary issue and that the lodged firing pin block is. The broken return spring is the failure that originally got me to inspect the gun that day.

[MSparks909]

Not trying to be rude but before you jump off the deep end, take a few deep breaths. I understand your frustration, however it is pointless to get all spun up at this point. Wait for them to call you back and see what your options are. Hopefully, FN will come through for you and will fix the problem and right the wrong.

But, if they don't, it's not the end of the world. Certainly don't let it blow your weekend plans. Shoot your other FNs, and if you still decide you want to sell them later then do so. I feel like there's a ton of emotion flying at the keyboard now...there's no need to go burning the FN flag and having a fire sale just yet.

[hiro]

Are there any aftermarket parts fitted to the gun?

I get that the striker return spring failed and the firing pin block has damaged the frame, the question is why?

A spring cannot last forever, if FN are going to say that by not replacing the spring, you have failed to do the appropriate preventative maintenance then they will hold you responsible and not do the work under warranty.

Is that what they're saying? It's not clear to me if they have spelt out exactly why they aren't offering to do the work under warranty.

If the service intervals aren't readily available and they don't say when you should have the gun serviced by a "qualified gunsmith" then you have a lever to argue you're not responsible for the failure.

Personally, I wouldn't wage a smear campaign on forums/social media. Yes, it may get a result but it's blackmailing, it doesn't help you find out why the problem happened if they just buckle and give you everything for free. It may well be the way the world has become but that doesn't make it the right thing to do, stay classy!

$370 at their cost is tiny compared to what they make as a company. I doubt that this is about money to them. If the product has failed thru lack of maintenance or simple wear and tear then they may have a point and you'll need to suck up the $370. With 16,000 rounds thru the gun, at a conservative estimate you've spent $3,200 on ammo, with the gun and ancillary gear added in, the cost of a new slide is less than 10% and way less money and time than you'll lose selling the FNs and investing in new hardware. Every gun has flaws, if as @Edwin (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=9726) has pointed out you have lost confidence in the gun then it's up to you to decide how to proceed. There are many seasoned shooters on this board and a good number of them are not giving up their Glocks because they fail the 10-8 no mag ejection test (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24029-Glock-Ejection-Without-Magazine). Nothing is perfect, nothing lasts forever.

[SsevenN]

Are there any aftermarket parts fitted to the gun?

I get that the striker return spring failed and the firing pin block has damaged the frame, the question is why?

I don't think the firing pin block *damaged* the slide - it is lodged in the slide - as in stuck in the depressed position, I think that they cannot remove it either - then again I don't know for sure, could be damage to the slide.

A spring cannot last forever, if FN are going to say that by not replacing the spring, you have failed to do the appropriate preventative maintenance then they will hold you responsible and not do the work under warranty.

Is that what they're saying? It's not clear to me if they have spelt out exactly why they aren't offering to do the work under warranty.

The conversation I had with the rep with FN went as follows:

them: Hi Mr. Barker I'm calling regarding warranty care blah blah, it will cost $370.00 to replace the slide

me: what? that's crazy, the parts broke during normal use of the gun, the wear and tear is simply from shooting it, I have never heard of a gun company charging for warrantied parts breakage. I have multiple other FNSs nearing that round count are you telling me I'm going to have to pay for the warranty work on them as well?

them: would you like to go ahead and buy a new slide?

me: no, do you have a supervisor or someone high up the line I can speak to?

them: I'll have them call you back

me: good here's my cell phone # too please call ASAP - That is the entirety of their communication with me.


If the service intervals aren't readily available and they don't say when you should have the gun serviced by a "qualified gunsmith" then you have a lever to argue you're not responsible for the failure.

Personally, I wouldn't wage a smear campaign on forums/social media. Yes, it may get a result but it's blackmailing, it doesn't help you find out why the problem happened if they just buckle and give you everything for free. It may well be the way the world has become but that doesn't make it the right thing to do, stay classy!

Yep I freely admit I have totally blown my normally extra cool demeanor and am mad as fucking hell right now, this is beyond frustrating.

$370 at their cost is tiny compared to what they make as a company. I doubt that this is about money to them. If the product has failed thru lack of maintenance or simple wear and tear then they may have a point and you'll need to suck up the $370. With 16,000 rounds thru the gun, at a conservative estimate you've spent $3,200 on ammo, with the gun and ancillary gear added in, the cost of a new slide is less than 10% and way less money and time than you'll lose selling the FNs and investing in new hardware. Every gun has flaws, if as @Edwin (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=9726) has pointed out you have lost confidence in the gun then it's up to you to decide how to proceed. There are many seasoned shooters on this board and a good number of them are not giving up their Glocks because they fail the 10-8 no mag ejection test (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24029-Glock-Ejection-Without-Magazine). Nothing is perfect, nothing lasts forever.

I have 2 other FNS's that are nearing the round count of this gun - it is wildly unacceptable if I am going to have to drop big dollars over the next year to get them repaired. and $370.00 for the fucking slide??? I could buy a FDE FNS-9c with night sights for like $60.00 more, what the fuck? Nope if that's the case I'll start buying VP9s, take it for what it's worth but that's how I feel.

EDIT: formatting, grammar too much slamfiring rage on my keyboard.

[SsevenN]

Not trying to be rude but before you jump off the deep end, take a few deep breaths. I understand your frustration, however it is pointless to get all spun up at this point. Wait for them to call you back and see what your options are. Hopefully, FN will come through for you and will fix the problem and right the wrong.

But, if they don't, it's not the end of the world. Certainly don't let it blow your weekend plans. Shoot your other FNs, and if you still decide you want to sell them later then do so. I feel like there's a ton of emotion flying at the keyboard now...there's no need to go burning the FN flag and having a fire sale just yet.

Not rude at all, I appreciate, and you are right.

[hiro]

To quote an esteemed forum member, "Facts matter, feelings can lie".

It appears to me that the question of when to replace the springs before they fail has not been answered. Routine maintenance is always cheaper than replacing parts that break. If all you have to do is replace springs and the problem won't happen then there's nothing to worry about. You can "what if" it till the cows come home, it won't help.

There's a good chance the person you spoke with is just the messenger, they might not actually be the one working on your pistol and don't know the details. It's great when you can talk to the person doing the work but I don't know how FN are set up, they might prefer to let the techs beaver away but it is worth asking to speak with the person who's worked on the gun.

I really had to stop and think umpteen times before writing this: Stop swearing. I know it's your usual use of language, I've watched your videos ;) but if you can't stop yourself from typing it and it's slipping out when you're talking to CS, it will not help you. Now don't go thinking I'm all puritanical, I swear as much or more than you but there is a time and a place and dealing with a corporate CS structure is not the place.

Set the feelings aside, get some facts together and come back to us with the progress.

[SsevenN]

To quote an esteemed forum member, "Facts matter, feelings can lie".

It appears to me that the question of when to replace the springs before they fail has not been answered. Routine maintenance is always cheaper than replacing parts that break. If all you have to do is replace springs and the problem won't happen then there's nothing to worry about. You can "what if" it till the cows come home, it won't help.

There's a good chance the person you spoke with is just the messenger, they might not actually be the one working on your pistol and don't know the details. It's great when you can talk to the person doing the work but I don't know how FN are set up, they might prefer to let the techs beaver away but it is worth asking to speak with the person who's worked on the gun.

I really had to stop and think umpteen times before writing this: Stop swearing. I know it's your usual use of language, I've watched your videos ;) but if you can't stop yourself from typing it and it's slipping out when you're talking to CS, it will not help you. Now don't go thinking I'm all puritanical, I swear as much or more than you but there is a time and a place and dealing with a corporate CS structure is not the place.

Set the feelings aside, get some facts together and come back to us with the progress.

???? I thought I addressed that earlier but I guess it wasn't clear. To the best of my knowledge there is no part replacement documentation provided by FNH and the general word of mouth is "they last forever" - I know that is not acceptable or accurate - *I'M* not saying they last forever, I'm saying that is the narrative, or talking point FNH may have - hearsay I know, I'm just dumping whatever info I have, because little to none seems to be provided, I will scour though all my cases and gear when I get home to confirm, if I'm wrong and it's clearly stated I fucked up with small parts replacement along the way I will formally apologize to the company, eat crow and pay up.

I wasn't rude to the lady, I think I even told her sorry a couple times in a row in the middle of babbling at her.

Are you seriously implying that I am omitting, lying or otherwise manipulating the authenticity of this experience? Come on...... I'm mad as hell, I'm not a liar.

EDITED

[hiro]

???? I thought I addressed that earlier but I guess it wasn't clear. To the best of my knowledge there is no part replacement documentation provided by FNH, I will scour though all my cases and gear when I get home to fonfirm.

I'm with you, I downloaded the 2016 FNS manual which has nothing and as Tom pointed out it's not easy/always possible for the public to get that info but I'll wage a P-F dollar that FN know.


Are you seriously implying that I am omitting, lying or otherwise manipulating the authenticity of this experience? Come on......

Of course not, where did you get that from?

[SsevenN]

I'm with you, I downloaded the 2016 FNS manual and as Tom pointed out it's not easy/always possible for the public to get that info but I'll wage a P-F dollar that FN know.



Of course not, where did you get that from?

To quote an esteemed forum member, "Facts matter, feelings can lie".

I guess I misunderstood the pertinence of that statement, I apologize - I don't need any other battles today.

[hiro]

No apology necessary. All I meant was that there are some things you need to find out to help you argue your case.

[TheNewbie]

I contacted ruger once, asking for information about recoil spring replacement schedule on my LCP. They were not helpful. I have no problems with Ruger, but they didn't want to give that information out it seemed.

[Cory]

This sucks man. Let us know how it shakes out for sure.

Otherwise, have a beer and say fuck it for now. You can't do much until you hear back from them, so do your best to hold on until you hear back. No need to borrow tomorrow's trouble when you don't know they're going to keep saying it is your expense. They might simply say "Hey, you're right. You are in warranty and we'll get this taken care of." so don't freak yet.

And honestly, who cares about swearing? I wouldn't cuss anyone out because that help... but there is a pretty significant difference between swearing at someone and swearing in general. I think we can all grasp the difference. Some people swear, and upset people swear more. Lectures on whats proper seem to rarely have the desired response. So let's skip the bullshit, shall we?

-Cory

[SsevenN]

This sucks man. Let us know how it shakes out for sure.

Otherwise, have a beer and say fuck it for now. You can't do much until you hear back from them, so do your best to hold on until you hear back. No need to borrow tomorrow's trouble when you don't know they're going to keep saying it is your expense. They might simply say "Hey, you're right. You are in warranty and we'll get this taken care of." so don't freak yet.

And honestly, who cares about swearing? I wouldn't cuss anyone out because that help... but there is a pretty significant difference between swearing at someone and swearing in general. I think we can all grasp the difference. Some people swear, and upset people swear more. Lectures on whats proper seem to rarely have the desired response. So let's skip the bullshit, shall we?

-Cory

I appreciate the kind words bro, and yes patience is my friend right now, I'll keep you guys posted on what they.

If they flip their story and cover me I'll probably be back to being a raging fanboy overnight.

[Mitch]

I contacted ruger once, asking for information about recoil spring replacement schedule on my LCP. They were not helpful. I have no problems with Ruger, but they didn't want to give that information out it seemed.

I had a similar issue with Walther and a PPQ. It's all about getting the right person on the phone sometimes. The guy I had couldn't understand why the schedule would be different between a PPQ and a P22. I gave up and treated it the same as a gen 3 glock.

HK was better on the phone but for the life of me I don't know why some manufacturers don't just put the information in the manual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GardoneVT]

16,000 rounds through a gun may not be "a lot" compared to some shooters, but safe to say it's a long way from the annual median of your general shooter.

It needs to be acknowledged that when someone uses a product heavily beyond expected norms - such as track using sports cars or shooting high rounds through pistols- that user must also assume responsibility for the wear and tear it causes. If I buy a Corvette and track use it every weekend to the point the brakes wear out every month,I can't very well pull into the service bay and whine about how it's a factory defect.

FN may not have done a good job setting expectations here,but they've got a point too - OP is a relatively heavy user ,and that has a cost sometimes. See if they'll discount the cost in the interest of customer service-but the OP should pay something for the repair.

[Clusterfrack]

SsevenN--There are a few separate issues here. Let's work through each of them as dispassionately as possible.

1) Is FN's CS truly awful? If it was, that might be reason to abandon the FN platform because you couldn't count on them to address future issues. If they are just dickish, or make you pay for something you think should be free, but otherwise support their products... maybe swallow your pride and carry on.

Now, here are the issues that would be more troubling to me. If the answer to either of these was yes, I'd be selling my FNs and switching platforms.

2) Is there a critical design flaw in the gun that makes it a poor choice for a high round count shooter?

3) Is there a critical reliability issue that makes the gun a poor choice for carry, duty, or competition?

[SsevenN]

16,000 rounds through a gun may not be "a lot" compared to some shooters, but safe to say it's a long way from the annual median of your general shooter.

It needs to be acknowledged that when someone uses a product heavily beyond expected norms - such as track using sports cars or shooting high rounds through pistols- that user must also assume responsibility for the wear and tear it causes. If I buy a Corvette and track use it every weekend to the point the brakes wear out every month,I can't very well pull into the service bay and whine about how it's a factory defect.

FN may not have done a good job setting expectations here,but they've got a point too - OP is a relatively heavy user ,and that has a cost sometimes. See if they'll discount the cost in the interest of customer service-but the OP should pay something for the repair.

I don't agree with your reasoning at all. Firearms companies need to stand behing their products that suffer unprovoked catastrophic failures, period.

As an example, glock will replace cracked slides, no questions asked whether the gun has 1,000 rounds through it or 100,000.


Glock has never questioned us about how long we've owned it, they've just send us an RMA to get it shipped back. It does mean a lot to me because that means they stand behind their product. We have other companies tell us they will only repair it once, it's out of warranty (though the claim to be life-time warranties), will not warranty because it's on a range, etc.

Glock has ALWAYS repaired and/or replaced the entire pistol and never once denied a repair.

V/R
Ron


Here's the link to the source on that:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/160140_High-round-count-pistols--100-000---observations.html&page=13

[SsevenN]

SsevenN--There are a few separate issues here. Let's work through each of them as dispassionately as possible.

1) Is FN's CS truly awful? If it was, that might be reason to abandon the FN platform because you couldn't count on them to address future issues. If they are just dickish, or make you pay for something you think should be free, but otherwise support their products... maybe swallow your pride and carry on.

That is the big question and I'm really really hoping they turn around on this, I just can't continue to work with those guns if they are going to leave me twisting in the wind on normal wear and tear. shot gun that fails in this way

Now, here are the issues that would be more troubling to me. If the answer to either of these was yes, I'd be selling my FNs and switching platforms.

2) Is there a critical design flaw in the gun that makes it a poor choice for a high round count shooter?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe this was more of a fluke catastrophe than anything - I'm not upset at all that the gun broke, it's actually a point of pride to me that I could shoot it enough to do that. my next most shot FNS, the 4" has about 13,000 rounds through it and I'd be very surprised if I experienced this issue again when(now a big IF) I get around the 16k mark.

3) Is there a critical reliability issue that makes the gun a poor choice for carry, duty, or competition?

In my opinion, no - I have absolutely no problems with the mechanical characteristics of these guns, in fact I still think they are some of the most rugged autoloaders on the market, my issue is 100% with FNH leaving me feeling left out in the cold and not taken care of.
If they turn around and cover me on this I will stick with the platform and keep shooting it and keep espousing the merits of the mechanical design, but I will be eternally weary of their CS and if I have a second issue after this and I am treated in a similar manner I will drop the whole company right then and right there.... Fool me once, shame on me....Fool me twice.....

[LockedBreech]

Remember the simple truth: You're dealing with a large company, and just like government agencies they're slow to respond. Once they do, they may help you out just fine.

Advice I frequently give clients/friends when dealing with government agencies and large companies is P-cubed or The Three Ps: Polite, Professional, Persistent. Always be sunny and cheerful and ask about their day, always maintain a patient, understanding attitude with no profanity, excitability, or anger, and continue to call every freaking day until someone helps you out of a pure desire to be rid of you.

When I was a prosecutor with 350-400 cases, the attorneys I ALWAYS called back first were the polite, pleasant ones that would not shut up until I dealt with their issue.

[hiro]

their products that suffer unprovoked catastrophic failures, period.

But you don't yet know why it failed and you are rushing to the conclusion that it's a warranty and that they should help you out.

Most warranties cover material and manufacturing defects, not wear and tear. Until someone at FNH tells you why they want to charge you and not cover it under warranty we're chasing our tails.

[fly out]

I realize this is not an actual maintenance schedule, but the FNS manual does say the gun should be checked by FN or a gunsmith every 2,000 rounds. Yeah, I know. That's what it says, though.

To the OP, do you shoot reloads?

[SsevenN]

No apology necessary. All I meant was that there are some things you need to find out to help you argue your case.

Well, looks like I fucked up. By manner of asinine unmanageable maintenance standards set by FN. See final picture.

Apparently I'm supposed to mail this thing back to the factory ever 2,000 rounds (L O FUCKING L) so a qualified gunsmith can examine it (I live in a part of the country with some of the highest poverty rates & unemployment and lowest population density - no one here is an FN gun smith, most people don't even know what FNH is 'round here, to give you guys some perspective, I would be returning this thing, half way across the country every 2 1/2 weeks (and then that really great ground UPS turn-around and shipping cost on top of that!).

If I was to follow this insanely retarded procedural standard I would be without my gun ~50% of the year, if they are going to hold to this ridiculous narrative, I don't care if I'm technically in the wrong - this platform is now unusable pertaining to my shooting habits.

I wonder if dave sevigny just has like 7 of his long slide models laying around so after a day of shooting he can box it back to the factory and just grab another from the stack.:rolleyes:

I have a feeling this stuff is CYA stuff so they can protect themselves from bubba home gun smiths, which I am not. (I don't mod the guts, I clean up the trigger by shooting it)

Also - because the pistol was broke I took down the striker assembly, so now I'm on the hook for breaking the already broke gun by taking it apart to confirm it was broke. - This is a little tongue and cheek, and now apparently because I took down my 4" models striker assembly (to confirm the striker return spring was indeed busted on the 5") I have screwed up even more.

But if they want to play the technical semantics whack-a-mole with me I'll argue that while it says not to do anything more than a field strip - it does NOT specifically state doing more than a field strip voids your warranty, so nana-nana-boo-boo stick your head in dog doo FNH.:cool:

Here is the lodged, depressed firing pin block next to my 4".

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/20170225_005144_zpspm7aazpn.jpg

Here is the busted striker return spring next to my 4" models intact striker return spring (for me to confirm it was indeed busted - what a reckless maneuver on my part :rolleyes:)

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/20170225_000013_zpslhgq8the.jpg

And lastly here is the wordage telling me I dun goofed (whop-whop (Archer cadence))

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/fnrules_zpsown2ttl9.jpg

So when I talk to whoever I talk to - regardless of how the slide issue is handled (if they cover it or I have to pay, and it looks like I'm- in the strictest technical sense now culpable for disassembling my broken gun so I'll bite my lip and eat the cost if I must) I'm going to ask if I am really held to these impossible to manage maintenance specifications, if I am I am going to have to ditch the whole series of guns regardless because it would totally bone my shooting cycles, or force me to buy at least 2 more of each gun and force me to eat almost bi-monthly shipping fees. Also I don't like being treated like a child in regards to a simple field strip visual examination being too much for me to handle and only something the professionals can handle.

Also - there is no mention of recommended parts replacement cycles.

So p-f, whaddya think? Do I still have a leg to stand on or did I cut myself off at the knees?

[SsevenN]

But you don't yet know why it failed and you are rushing to the conclusion that it's a warranty and that they should help you out.

Most warranties cover material and manufacturing defects, not wear and tear. Until someone at FNH tells you why they want to charge you and not cover it under warranty we're chasing our tails.


Dude??? The specifics of the failure are irrelevant, it suffered a catastrophic failure during normal use - this is the contextually important part, it broke fully just shooting the gun. I don't care HOW it mechanically failed I care that they don't stand behind the failure, jesus christ...

And good gun companies absolutely DO cover wear and tear, see my post about glock. If FNH has a less rock solid position on honoring their products I will as I said before, buy the new slide and proceed to firesale all this hot unsupported garbage.

[jeep45238]

I think you have a leg to stand on - if they can show you your disassembly has damaged it, then you should be charged for the damaged parts/labor. If no damage from a tear-down, then no charge. Just like the automotive world. Have them tell you, in writing, how your disassembly post-lodged striker block lodging, broke a slide (the expensive part that needs fixed). Have a voice recorder going if possible (Ohio is a 1 party needs to know state, check your laws). Take notes on a pad of paper so you can keep track and not get tripped up, time-stamping when you hear something that's important. Keep asking for a supervisor until you reach an agreement - everyone has a supervisor until you get to the board of directors.

I came very, very close to choosing the FNX series, and didn't due to parts availability, and am glad I didn't after this. I can't see ever owning a firearm again where I can't just up and order replacement wear-out items. Every 2000 rounds needing a factory inspection? Personally that says a lot about the LACK of durability in a design in my opinion.

Sorry to hear about your situation man.

[SsevenN]

Remember the simple truth: You're dealing with a large company, and just like government agencies they're slow to respond. Once they do, they may help you out just fine.

Advice I frequently give clients/friends when dealing with government agencies and large companies is P-cubed or The Three Ps: Polite, Professional, Persistent. Always be sunny and cheerful and ask about their day, always maintain a patient, understanding attitude with no profanity, excitability, or anger, and continue to call every freaking day until someone helps you out of a pure desire to be rid of you.

When I was a prosecutor with 350-400 cases, the attorneys I ALWAYS called back first were the polite, pleasant ones that would not shut up until I dealt with their issue.

Excellent points, I've settled down a lot since this afternoon. I think a decent amount of my disproportionate rage was generate by the terse and almost rude phone conversation, like I said I felt bitch slapped and betrayed. I sent these guys a bunch of pictures bragging to them how kick ass their gear was, I expected a call from a friendly individual telling me something like "Sir your pistol is on their way back, sorry for the delay, also thanks for the pics we hung them up in the break room!" I guess I was just being naive.

[GJM]

I haven't read the entire thread, so excuse me if this was mentioned before. When the FNS was first introduced, there was a design issue that could cause a failure mode that could tie up the pistol. FN basically said tough nuggies, if you had one of these pistols. I liked some things about the FNS, but at the end of the day, there was not enough better about the FNS to deal with FN support for it.

[GardoneVT]

I don't agree with your reasoning at all. Firearms companies need to stand behing their products that suffer unprovoked catastrophic failures, period.

As an example, glock will replace cracked slides, no questions asked whether the gun has 1,000 rounds through it or 100,000.




One- given factory prices for ammo ,you've spent $4,000 on ammo for that pistol. It's a sizeable amount of use,especially if recoil springs and manufacturer recommended service was not completed. $370.00 is not even 10% of your ammo expense history with the gun.


Two-FN is not Glock. One also buys the product support with the gun in question-or lack thereof on occasion. At least FN is working with you on this,which is more then MANY gun firms are willing to do.

[SsevenN]

One- given factory prices for ammo ,you've spent $4,000 on ammo for that pistol. It's a sizeable amount of use,especially if recoil springs and manufacturer recommended service was not completed. $370.00 is not even 10% of your ammo expense history with the gun.


Two-FN is not Glock. One also buys the product support with the gun in question-or lack thereof on occasion. At least FN is working with you on this,which is more then MANY gun firms are willing to do.

Yep the FNS is not a glock. The Glocks slogan is "Glock Perfection" The FNS's slogan is "Over 400,000 rounds tested" and their company slogan is "The worlds most battle proven firearms" You are being obtuse as fuck if you cannot infer from that wordage that they are stating they sell ridiculously long life span, rugged products and anyone with sequitur logical reasoning skills of equal to or greater value than a chimpanzee can see this.

I wish I had eyes the size of beach balls to roll at you.

[Luke]

Beach ball comment got me!




Bro, sometimes when your a special snow flake FNH lover bad things happen. You should buy some veepeenines regardless of how this plays out.



Edit to add that paragraph you typed out in response to gardone won't be read. He doesn't speak that language, you gotta use numbers. My buddy is an accountant, if you need him to translate for you let me know.

[ReverendMeat]

At least FN is working with you on this,which is more then MANY gun firms are willing to do.

...the hell are you talking about? I can't think of a single major manufacturer that wouldn't fix a gun that broke during normal usage, and normally they do it for free.

[SecondsCount]

I think you have a valid point about the warranty. It just seems that this is the way customer service is handled these days and it really turns the consumer off.

Years ago, when the M&Ps came out, I had a similar situation when the striker started failing. It turns out that the tip started bending, causing light primer strikes. When I called S&W to get a replacement, the person on the phone flat out lied, said that it wasn't covered under warranty, and that they were not having issues with strikers. I bought a replacement from an online vendor and switched to H&K soon after.

[SsevenN]

Beach ball comment got me!
Bro, sometimes when your a special snow flake FNH lover bad things happen. You should buy some veepeenines regardless of how this plays out.


I think I'm going to get some VP9s simply as fall back, regardless, all of this couldn't have come at a worse time. The company I work for is on death's door, I'm preparing to relocate to the north east, basically money is tight right now.

Yes I know I shoot what many people would consider way too much money worth of ammo, but life is about priorities and choices and my passion, dedication and motivation for personal and professional success is largely fueled by my desire to become a stronger shooter.

If the folks here can't empathize with that philosophy then I am truly alone in the universe lol. Also yes I'm super aware my pseudo-contrarian deeply rooted need to be a special snowflake is undermining, or at best challenging the efficiency of my training.

EDIT, I'll pat my own back with the beach ball jab too, colloquial vernacular alacrity peppered with wit in efficient form. :p

[SsevenN]

The annual/2000 round factory inspection thing is goofy. If I were you, and I really loved FNH pistols -- which it sounds like you do, I'd really try to get them to let you into a armorers class so you could "officially" do the inspection and maintenance yourself. I bet you'd even find out the recommended replacement intervals for all the small parts. :)

This is actually a fantastic idea. Not to mention a possible inroad in to a new career direction.

[SsevenN]

with the exception of this massive failure I've run these guns really really hard with flawless results.

I even sent them this fucking picture in the return box with a note praising their design and quality and what a fan boy I am.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/20160807_161834_zpssnwgh22a.jpg


I hope this isn't bad form - but I realize many of you might not be familiar with how the FNS guts look clean. So here is a picture for posteritie's sake.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/20160807_174747_zpsnmkjykt5.jpg

[Vinh]

This is not directed at the original poster, but at the general population here. How come we expect firearms to be warrantied for life, but not other consumer products like cars?

[scw2]

I haven't read the entire thread, so excuse me if this was mentioned before. When the FNS was first introduced, there was a design issue that could cause a failure mode that could tie up the pistol. FN basically said tough nuggies, if you had one of these pistols. I liked some things about the FNS, but at the end of the day, there was not enough better about the FNS to deal with FN support for it.

So moral of the story is to pick a Taurus before a FN? :)

[ReverendMeat]

This is not directed at the original poster, but at the general population here. How come we expect firearms to be warrantied for life, but not other consumer products like cars?

Most people use their cars. Most people dont use their guns to the extant that anything over a 2 year warranty would be necessary. Since so few people would use it the mfgr isnt out much money overall but gets brownie points regardless

[GardoneVT]

Yep the FNS is not a glock. The Glocks slogan is "Glock Perfection" The FNS's slogan is "Over 400,000 rounds tested" and their company slogan is "The worlds most battle proven firearms" You are being obtuse as fuck if you cannot infer from that wordage that they are stating they sell ridiculously long life span, rugged products and anyone with sequitur logical reasoning skills of equal to or greater value than a chimpanzee can see this.

I wish I had eyes the size of beach balls to roll at you.

Phineas T Barnum once reasoned that a suckers born every minute. Life's hard when you don't do your homework on important purchases.

[Willard]

Return every 2K rounds (paying FEDEX/UPS shipping)??? Frankly, that sounds crazy to me, as it puts the cost of ownership over say 30K rounds as 15 return trips to the factory at roughly $80 each as $1200 in shipping only. Plus cost of gun, and replacement when they don't cover it or only cover half cost, and we're coming up on Wilson Combat prices and you'd get longer wear and the enjoyment of a higher grade gun throughout the use and a far better warranty experience. Glad I don't (and as a result of the OP's posts won't) own any FNs. Thanks for the public service announcement.

[SsevenN]

This is not directed at the original poster, but at the general population here. How come we expect firearms to be warrantied for life, but not other consumer products like cars?

I know you intentionally shielded me from what could be perceived as a taunt or challenge while I'm in this state of duress, but I wanted to give my 0.02 on the subject regardless because I think you asked a very legitimate question. I hope I worded that clearly - I'm not offended or threatened by your post I simply want to share my thoughts.

I see it like this, cars are used daily, and even casuals are forced to put similiar amounts of miles on cars as professional drivers are- in some or many circumstances.

Guns, particularly pistols are made or broken by the observations and opinions of the professional shooting community (law enforcement/mil/comp/and even us joe schmoe uber-enthusiast social media parasites - to a degree). People who cannot afford to, or do not have the motivation to shoot a gun as much as a competitor or serious law enforcement professional will still WANT and DESIRE to carry the gun recommended by the aforementioned demographic. (See: the immediate and prolific rise in popularity of the SIG P320 right after the mil trial ended and they won)

In this sense gun companies have an active responsibility or at least big incentive to provide people who do go the extra mile with the highest quality customer service and support imaginable, we are walking anecdotes, walking talking testimonials and sales people.

I have (without shame) actively shilled and promoted the FNS for years because I have an investment in the gun being profitable for the company and kept afloat for my own personal needs. I can confirm personally influencing at least a dozen buyers I'm aware of, and god knows how many more to invest in this system.

If FNH keeps even a nobody enthusiast with median level skills happy? I permeate and infect the social media and interwebs with my passion and love - I'm not spending extra money after the fact directly with FNH mind you, but my participation and use of their product literally fuels sales. This is the basic business model of Free to Play video games.

I think that was a rather pointed and succinct post, I could expand a lot, but I wanted to cut to the heart of it.

[SsevenN]

Phineas T Barnum once reasoned that a suckers born every minute. Life's hard when you don't do your homework on important purchases.

Now FNH - one of the largest and most successful manufacturers in existence, who supplies 70% of the small conventional arms to our military, is a less than reputable manufacturer and I'm naive and have been duped for investing in their products?

Keep digging, you are really illustrating your deductive reasoning and observational skills. I'm sure you are impressing the knowledgeable individuals here with the quality posts.

I think you're just rump roasted that I burned you like Hydrofluoric acid.

Beach balls, etc etc... :rolleyes:

[olstyn]

This is not directed at the original poster, but at the general population here. How come we expect firearms to be warrantied for life, but not other consumer products like cars?

I feel like the blame, if it can be called that, rests squarely on the shoulders of the manufacturers who've started offering lifetime warranties. It has become, if not the industry standard, at least quite commonplace. Consumers wanted it, manufacturers served that demand, and here we are.

[SsevenN]

Return every 2K rounds (paying FEDEX/UPS shipping)??? Frankly, that sounds crazy to me, as it puts the cost of ownership over say 30K rounds as 15 return trips to the factory at roughly $80 each as $1200 in shipping only. Plus cost of gun, and replacement when they don't cover it or only cover half cost, and we're coming up on Wilson Combat prices and you'd get longer wear and the enjoyment of a higher grade gun throughout the use and a far better warranty experience. Glad I don't (and as a result of the OP's posts won't) own any FNs. Thanks for the public service announcement.

I will let you know if they REALLY hold to this standard or - if like mentioned previously, it's just CYA (cover your ass) lettering to insulate them from bubba's truly responsible for damaging their firearm. I have a feeling they won't hold me to this standard, I actually expect them not to, If they do it's literally a death sentence to the companies reputation in my mind.

I should also reiterate 16k and 4k dry fire is pretty neat-o, a simple extrapolation of ToddG's HK P30 observations show the mechanical wear to be pretty well lined up, and to reiterate again - I really do think this slide stop jam is a fluke one off bizarre occurrence, with visual & physical observation I was totally mystified as to how it occurred. I just want them to fucking fix it asap and send it back so I can start shooting it again, that or veeepeeenineeeee

[GardoneVT]

Now FNH - one of the largest and most successful manufacturers in existence, who supplies 70% of the small conventional arms to our military, is a less than reputable manufacturer and I'm naive and have been duped for investing in their products?


"I am completely beside myself, I have over $3,000 worth of FNH pistols."

[Cookie Monster]

Get a Glock of whatever flavor and shoot that and remember this is a very first world problem.

[Willard]

Let's please try to limit discussion to the subject at hand and not each other. As usual, this sounds like a request, but it's not.

Tom, you are equipped with the unflappable demeanor required of a cat herder. I for one appreciate it.

[hiro]

This is not directed at the original poster, but at the general population here. How come we expect firearms to be warrantied for life, but not other consumer products like cars?


I feel like the blame, if it can be called that, rests squarely on the shoulders of the manufacturers who've started offering lifetime warranties. It has become, if not the industry standard, at least quite commonplace. Consumers wanted it, manufacturers served that demand, and here we are.

I think the marketing departments came up with the idea of lifetime warranty. The engineers who make stuff probably just face palm. How long is a lifetime? Are we talking a mayfly? The tyres? The spring or the barrel? It's pretty close to meaningless and therefore they can interpret it any which way they like to fit the outcome they're offering.

It's selling peace of mind cos there are a lot of idiots buying stuff. And no, that is not aimed at anyone in this thread.

[VT1032]

I feel your pain on dealing with companies that don't want to honor their warranties. I went through this with Rock River Arms before I got smart and started buying decent AR's. One of their rifles ran fine for about 1000 rounds or so, but then basically started having extraction issues every other round or so. I sent it in, and a few days later got a call from their customer service guy telling me that "my barrel was shot out" and that it appeared it was because of excessive rates of fire so they wouldn't cover it under warranty...

It was a DMR build that had never even seen rapid fire, never mind the fact that to shoot out a barrel in 1000 rounds, I basically would have had to some how have a 1,000 round magazine and just go cyclic, so the claim was completely ludicrous. I explained all this to him and he politely implied that I didn't know what I was talking about, and to take it or leave it. I not so politely implied that if their barrels could be shot out in 1,000 rounds, then that said a lot about their product and that I wanted to speak with the manager. He said someone would be in touch. A few days later, I did get a call from one of the guys who run the company (his name escapes me). I explained the situation, and he took one look at the rifle while he was on the phone with me and noticed there was no gas tube roll pin... He said he'd give me another call back. A few days later, I got another call from the original rep. He somewhat sheepishly admitted that my barrel was fine and that because there was no roll pin, the gas tube had worked loose under fire. They replaced the entire gas system and the rifle ran fine after that. They still had the chutzpah to try and charge me for the replacement parts, after all that, which I flatly refused to pay for given their negligent QC practices. After verifying function, I sold it, bought a Colt 6720 and never looked back.

The point I'm belatedly getting to is that it just takes the right person sometimes. Getting pissed usually won't help the matter, but not taking their answer and politely but firmly insisting on different outcome can make a difference. I can't speak for FN, but I've contacted a few gun companies for assistance and have had wildly different outcomes from the same company. I had a horrible time with glock once. I had a gen 3 19 that not only was giving me pretty consistent brass to the face, but was exhibiting serious finish wear after only 6 months of use in a suede lined safariland als holster. They refused to send me a shipping label (shipping cost me $70 because it had to be overnighted) and when it got there, they said it "was operating within specs" and that while it was exibiting abnormal finish wear, it must have been my fault, to paraphrase. They then shipped it back without consulting me as to whether that was an acceptable outcome. On a different occasion though, I had a completely different experience with glock, where they paid the shipping, fixed the problem quickly and overnighted the gun back to me. I've contacted Smith and Wesson CS a few times and they have always stood out as excellent, and very helpful. I think it really all depends who you end up talking to. Some people are problem solvers and some people like to punt the issue down the line.

[psalms144.1]

Holy mother of shipping costs, Batman! As I read that manual, with its horrible grammar and lack of punctuation, your pistol needs to be inspected by a certified armorer every 2,000 rounds OR every year. It does not say "whichever comes first." The BS about how your pistol is such a finely tuned machine that your neanderthal mind can't possibly comprehend the complexity, leading to its certain destruction if you do more than field strip pisses me off so badly that I would NEVER buy any FN product, EVER. Sure, you're not a certified armorer, and I'm sure it's more complex than a GLOCK, but, sure as a bear shits in the woods, I wouldn't own a pistol that I have to ship off to the mothership ON MY DIME every couple of weeks/months.

If you're desperately in love with the thing, I feel for you. The Good Lord knows I made an absolute idiot of myself lots of times because I was in love - just never with a pistol (yet!)

Hope this works out.

[SsevenN]

"I am completely beside myself, I have over $3,000 worth of FNH pistols."


Once again, because concrete is your spirit animal - your skull is as thick as it and your wits are as quick as it. I'm furious with their customer service, I am still unabashedly impressed the the mechanical design and quality of their arms.

How about we just part ways on this subject?

[Slalom.45]

Interesting thread.

I made a very analytical choice roughly 4 years ago when I decided I was going to go polymer and move my shooting from every now and then to a more serious level. I looked at and fondled everything out there at shops and shows. Glocks basically felt the least natural in my hand, but everything else pointed me to them. I went with it any now they feel perfectly natural in my hand, and all seven that my wife and I own run... all the time.

I have looked around on occasion and thought that FN would be the other brand I might be interested in should I ever decide to change. That is certainly not the case after seeing those ridiculous requirements for warranty.

[hiro]

I'm furious with their customer service, I am still unabashedly impressed the the mechanical design and quality of their arms.

Really? I think you have it back to front.

The gun fails on you but you're saying it's mechanically sound? You've not mentioned (that I recall) any issues of delay in their response to dealing with your issue, you just don't like their response but as far as I know, they've not yet made it clear to you why they want to charge you for a new slide.

:confused:

[SsevenN]

Interesting thread.

I made a very analytical choice roughly 4 years ago when I decided I was going to go polymer and move my shooting from every now and then to a more serious level. I looked at and fondled everything out there at shops and shows. Glocks basically felt the least natural in my hand, but everything else pointed me to them. I went with it any now they feel perfectly natural in my hand, and all seven that my wife and I own run... all the time.

I have looked around on occasion and thought that FN would be the other brand I might be interested in should I ever decide to change. That is certainly not the case after seeing those ridiculous requirements for warranty.

I know I seem schizo, given my general flair for hyperbole and the original fervor I came out with, but maybe I just got a shit service rep, maybe this will be resolved with an apology and some S.W.A.G.

I'll make sure to keep everyone posted for posterity.

[SsevenN]

Really? I think you have it back to front.

The gun fails on you but you're saying it's mechanically sound? You've not mentioned (that I recall) any issues of delay in their response to dealing with your issue, you just don't like their response but as far as I know, they've not yet made it clear to you why they want to charge you for a new slide.

:confused:

I'm actually done responding to you because you consistently circumvent the point of my posts and chime in with tertiary, red herring reasoning. It seems almost intentionally designed to solicit a response rather than hold its own water as an argument or position.

I appreciate your contributions earlier though.

[El Cid]

I think the marketing departments came up with the idea of lifetime warranty. The engineers who make stuff probably just face palm. How long is a lifetime? Are we talking a mayfly? The tyres? The spring or the barrel? It's pretty close to meaningless and therefore they can interpret it any which way they like to fit the outcome they're offering.

It's selling peace of mind cos there are a lot of idiots buying stuff. And no, that is not aimed at anyone in this thread.

Agreed. If I shot out the barrel of an AR I wouldn't expect the maker to install a new one free of charge. It's difficult to say what should be done to the OP's gun without a full diagnosis - but I don't think what is broken should be so after 4,000 rounds. The problem for makers of firearms though is they have no real way to know what kind of ammo is used in their weapons. If a shooter (not saying the OP did this) uses higher pressure ammo or hand loads, then maybe accelerated wear isn't the maker's fault. I can't imagine Chevy honoring the warranty on a Corvette run at the track with race fuel.

I don't know what the right answer is for this situation but anytime a big company treats me like crap I walk away. A good company employee can tell me I'm wrong or out of luck and do it in such a way that I say thank you. My only dealing with FNH was when the USG optic on my PS-90 failed. They sent me a replacement immediately after I sent them the bad one. I don't recall who paid shipping but I was overall pleased with the experience. Good luck OP - I hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction.

[GardoneVT]

Actual text from the FN manual regarding the "2000 round service",offered without comment:

"NOTICE! YOUR PISTOL SHOULD BE INSPECTED EVERY 2000 ROUNDS AND/OR ONCE A YEAR BY A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH OR THE FN PRODUCT SERVICE CENTER BECAUSE DAMAGE, WEAR AND CORROSION ARE NOT ALWAYS VISIBLE FROM THE OUTSIDE. LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MILITARY PERSONNEL SHOULD CONTACT THEIR DEPARTMENTAL ARMORER WHO
WILL INSPECT THE PISTOL ON A YEARLY BASIS."

[hiro]

I'm actually done responding to you because you consistently circumvent the point of my posts and chime in with tertiary, red herring reasoning.

I appreciate your contributions earlier though.

All I was doing was trying to offer a balanced, reasoned and unemotional approach, which is what you asked for in your OP.

But because it doesn't fit with what you want to hear - you don't like what FNH are saying and you don't like what I'm saying, you choose to ignore it.

Maybe I could have written it better, maybe it didn't read well for you? I will bow out of the thread.

[SsevenN]

All I was doing was trying to offer a balanced, reasoned and unemotional approach, which is what you asked for in your OP.

But because it doesn't fit with what you want to hear - you don't like what FNH are saying and you don't like what I'm saying, you choose to ignore it.

Maybe I could have written it better, maybe it didn't read well for you? I will bow out of the thread.

Same old song and dance aye?

See you around bud.

[fly out]

To the OP, do you shoot reloads?

[GardoneVT]

Thanks, but that was already posted by SsevenN in post #43 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24700-So-I-broke-my-FNS-9L&p=574585&viewfull=1#post574585) of this thread.

I stand corrected.


In any event I don't see the problem with that. Basically , a qualified individual should check out the gun to ensure nothings amiss. Who says that person can't be the owner?

[Olim9]

Get a Glock of whatever flavor and shoot that and remember this is a very first world problem.

But Glocks are ugly as shit. :cool:

[busdriver]

16k rounds is an absurdly low number to have a trashed slide.

[fly out]

Before we pile on to FN, Glock's published information is very similar...

...GLOCK pistols subjected to heavy usage, should be inspected periodically by a GLOCK-certified Armorer, or by returning the pistols to GLOCK, lnc. for inspection. Although the appropriate inspection interval will depend on the conditions of use. a reasonable rule of thumb for law enforcement, security, and military users is that the pistols should be inspected by a GLOCK-certified Armorer at annual intervals.

FN has not said they are using the 2,000-round language to deny warranty coverage.

[coN]

I suppose I should chime in...

Not trying to anger the OP, but a similar situation that happened to me left a really bad taste in my mouth and I ended dumping the platform. Long story short, being told that if I replaced parts purchased from MGW and not have their gunsmith (@ MGW) install them, they would void my warranty. The whole ordeal left me disgusted so I hocked my FNS 9L on Gunbroker.

It was replaced with a Glock 34 with an Apex Trigger and Ameriglo T-Cap front paired with Pro Operator rear sights. Ugly as sin, but it can really shoot if I do my part. Hate the finger grooves and stippling isn't as aggressive but the trigger is so much better, and I am happy.

That bring said, yesterday I installed a polymer Apex trigger in my M&P 2.0 and holy shit, the trigger is sweet, no tweaking involved, no other parts installed. Best way I can describe it, is a PPQ with a slightly heavier trigger, minimal overtravel and as a bonus, the stippling is awesome. I guess what I'm trying to say here is, if you decide to dump the FNS platform, there are plenty of fish in the sea.

I hope it does work out for you.

[SsevenN]

To the OP, do you shoot reloads?

no, mostly factory LAX new loads or whatever my LGS can supply at a comparative ~0.20 per round price point, always brass too


16k rounds is an absurdly low number to have a trashed slide.

I think this has been beat to death, but off of my observations this slide is mechanically intact......The slide stop is just wedged in so tight the jaws of life stand no chance.


I know you are frustrated by this whole situation, but I'm going to ask you (and everyone else) one last time to please follow my direction to not talk about each other (or at least take it to PM as it's just not interesting to the rest of us :)).

This goes for everyone, it's possible to ignore someone without telling them you are ignoring them. In fact, telling them that you are ignoring them is sort of the opposite of ignoring them. :cool:

I will abide and discontinue responding, clearly though there are provocation attempts here, reading between the lines on forum speak is a well exercised skill for many of us and I'm sure you are no stranger to the dynamics of it, I will bite my lip and accept my responsibility for not diffusing the situation, I apologize for any off topic vectoring.


Before we pile on to FN, Glock's published information is very similar...


FN has not said they are using the 2,000-round language to deny warranty coverage.

Right, I hope I made that clear, pretty sure they are just going full C.Y.A. mode in the manual, that said the response I get from a human being in the following days will drastically influence my continued disposition.

[SsevenN]

Holy shit - I just had a mini-ephany too....

They wanted to charge me $370.00 for the slide, JUST the slide - the barrel was clearly unaffected. Who is pricing this stuff over there? Were they going to replace the completed slide + bbl for no reason? Or were they planning on ripping me the fuck off for a singular milled + MIM part assembled slide and dropping in my existing and perfectly great (FN makes awesome bbls) barrel? Are they aware you can snag a complete gun for like $450.00 if you are savvy?

Yep, I'm back to furious, can't wait to talk with someone over there.

[Padwan]

It can happen to the best of them. My first Glock was a Gen 2 that cracked at the muzzle, along the portion that retains the RSA. I talked to the shop that sold me the gun (I was still relatively new to shooting at the time) and they talked to Glock. Factory said they could replace my slide subject to inspection of the gun.

I was quoted a price equal to a new Glock. I was told that using a Harrts recoil reducer guide rod voided my warranty (yes, it was that long ago). I told them thank you but no, bit the bullet and bought a new Glock instead.

It sucks but fortunately, it was the only sour experience I've had with that maker so far.

[LockedBreech]

As usual, this sounds like a request, but it's not.

This made me laugh.

"She wondered how far he might push Roland before discovering that he hadn’t been pushing at all. Because some men couldn’t be pushed."

- Stephen King, The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla

[farscott]

This is not directed at the original poster, but at the general population here. How come we expect firearms to be warrantied for life, but not other consumer products like cars?

This might be due to the fact that several companies (e.g., Ruger, Taurus, Springfield Armory, and S&W) either have a written (SA) or de facto (Ruger) lifetime warranty. Others are in the middle, like Wilson Combat and BCM, both of which are very generous with warranty returns. Heck, SA does not even care if you are the first or the fortieth owner as the warranty covers the gun.

[fixer]

Some constructive criticism:

1.Use this as an opportunity to evaluate the platform. If this has left a serious hole in confidence in the platform, then absolutely nothing FNH will do, even a replacement slide, will satisfy you. This is why I never bought into the lifetime warranty thing. (I don't know if FNH has a super duper warranty or not). If the gun is breaking more than I can handle, I move on.

2.You've found a potential flaw in this platform. Can it be mitigated with additional maintenance or replacements before it turns into a slide replacement?

3. If you have to do a slide replacement every 1k rounds or so, do you like the platform enough to deal with this?

4. Can you envision having a 2 or 3 back ups?

5. Is it possible this is a fluke and your pistol was one that happened to be just outside the QC limits? Another way to say this--do other FNH pistols of the same general year and model have this problem?

If you've got a hankerin to move on to the VP9 then this is as good of a time as any to make the switch. Your inventory of FNH can be liquidated to easily cover 2 pistols and a gear train.

[busdriver]

I think this has been beat to death, but off of my observations this slide is mechanically intact.....
I understand, my point is that regardless, it's trashed and that is a very low round count to be replacing major components under "normal wear and tear" rather than under warrantee.

[Hambo]

SsevenN, I think you need to put this in perspective.

Parts break no matter who made the pistol. To expect springs of any kind to survive six figure round counts (from your quoted FN advertising) is unrealistic. At 16K I'd have replaced recoil springs several times at the minimum.

You've still got functioning FNs, so shoot them. You don't need to make a wholesale change today. You may decide not to buy them in the future, but for now they work. No matter what FN says or doesn't say about small parts replacement, you've got a good idea of when some parts should be replaced. If you do your own PM on your other FNs you could run them for a long time. Rage quitting the FNs you have won't hurt FN in the slightest, but you can take a financial beating.

[olstyn]

Not trying to anger the OP, but a similar situation that happened to me left a really bad taste in my mouth and I ended dumping the platform. Long story short, being told that if I replaced parts purchased from MGW and not have their gunsmith (@ MGW) install them, they would void my warranty.

Ridiculous. At one point, the slide stop spring on my Walther P99c broke. I called Walther and a few days later, the new part was in my mailbox, gratis. Crazily, they trusted me to install it, too, even though doing so was not 100% trivial. (It wasn't anything insanely difficult, but it did require removing the trigger and locking block from the frame, which was definitely a learning experience, since I'd never done it before.) I wasn't particularly interested in FN beforehand, but even leaving aside the OP's story, the other responses regarding FN CS are not pushing me anywhere but away from FN for the future.

[Hemiram]

IMHO, the crazy part of this whole thing is the $370 FN wants or wanted for the slide. My FNS-40 cost me....$370. Well, soon it will be gone. Not because of this, mostly because I'm done with .40 and I don't like the grip texturing at all.

[LittleLebowski]

I've passed this on to someone who might be able to help, maybe not. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Help should be coming, OP.

[SsevenN]

SsevenN, I think you need to put this in perspective.

Parts break no matter who made the pistol. To expect springs of any kind to survive six figure round counts (from your quoted FN advertising) is unrealistic. At 16K I'd have replaced recoil springs several times at the minimum.

You've still got functioning FNs, so shoot them. You don't need to make a wholesale change today. You may decide not to buy them in the future, but for now they work. No matter what FN says or doesn't say about small parts replacement, you've got a good idea of when some parts should be replaced. If you do your own PM on your other FNs you could run them for a long time. Rage quitting the FNs you have won't hurt FN in the slightest, but you can take a financial beating.

As stated repeatedly, including in the original post, I have NO problem with the parts failure. I even stressed, in the OP it was a bit of a point of pride that I could run enough rounds to cause a breakage. My problem is the garbage tier customer service.

How have I not made this absolutely clear at this point?

[SsevenN]

Help should be coming, OP.

You are my favorite person on the internet sir.

If there is ever anything I can do for you, name it, I mean that.

[coN]

Parts break no matter who made the pistol. To expect springs of any kind to survive six figure round counts (from your quoted FN advertising) is unrealistic. At 16K I'd have replaced recoil springs several times at the minimum.
Well see, therein lies the issue. I was hitting the 5000+ rounds mark and wanted to preemptively buy multiple RSA's, striker return springs, etc. Calling FN, they wanted me to just send in the pistol on my dime, which would be expensive since no FFL around here will send the the gun for me at their discounted rate. The rep was also vague about allowing me to buy extra parts so I told them I would buy extras from MGW and install them myself. It was all downhill from there.

To further the perspective, I bought a beat-the-hell-up Gen 3 Glock 17 (my first) at a pawn shop with the funds I got from the FNS 9L. Looking at various forums, people were encouraging police trade-in Glock buyers to call Glock and send in their gun so they could take a look. I figured, 'what the hell' so I called Glock and they sent me a labeled box. One week later, I got the gun back with paperwork telling me all the parts they replaced (barrel, all firing pin parts, extractor, trigger spring, RSA) and a thank you for purchasing. This gesture impressed me so damn much, I now own multiple Glocks. It also helped that I shot with them well aside from my M&Ps.


At one point, the slide stop spring on my Walther P99c broke. I called Walther and a few days later, the new part was in my mailbox, gratis. Crazily, they trusted me to install it, too, even though doing so was not 100% trivial.
I can also confirm this about Walther. When I owned my PPQ M2, multiple times at the range the mag would just drop out of the gun. I attributed this to the super-light mag release button. Upon calling Walther, the rep said she would send me a spring from the 45 model of the PPQ's mag release. She then asked me if I was comfortable installing it, of course I said yes. 3 days later, spring is in the mail, installed, and roughly 1500 rounds later no more mag drop issues.

I dunno whats going on with FN, but I hope the situation improves. LittleLebowski made his contact, well see where it goes from there.

[VT1032]

To further the perspective, I bought a beat-the-hell-up Gen 3 Glock 17 (my first) at a pawn shop with the funds I got from the FNS 9L. Looking at various forums, people were encouraging police trade-in Glock buyers to call Glock and send in their gun so they could take a look. I figured, 'what the hell' so I called Glock and they sent me a labeled box. One week later, I got the gun back with paperwork telling me all the parts they replaced (barrel, all firing pin parts, extractor, trigger spring, RSA) and a thank you for purchasing. This gesture impressed me so damn much, I now own multiple Glocks. It also helped that I shot with them well aside from my M&Ps..

And it's stories like this that really drive home the point that it really depends who you talk to. My glock experiences were quite the opposite, but I've also had good interactions with them on another occasion.

[coN]

And it's stories like this that really drive home the point that it really depends who you talk to. My glock experiences were quite the opposite, but I've also had good interactions with them on another occasion.
True. But while anecdotal, the ratio of success stories I read about Glocks customer service far outweigh the handful of negative experiences.

[VT1032]

I believe it. It just really soured me on the whole company. Don't get me wrong, I still mostly own Glocks, but it pissed me right off. They redeemed themselves later though, to a degree. If I were in charge of a company, I would not skimp on customer service. I'd get decent people and empower them to take care of problems at their level. Good customer service really does earn lifelong customers.

DSG Arms is an example of this. I've called them a couple of times with questions and every time, they've gone way above and beyond in answering questions, and or helping me with issues I've had. In turn, I've spent a bunch of money there and keep going back. they aren't always the cheapest, but they are competitive and they are a stand up company that takes care of their customers. Botach on the other hand usually has stupid good deals, but their customer service and shipping is so atrociously bad, I refuse to shop there anymore. I've rage cancelled more orders there then I've actually received, and that's not an exaggeration.

[Larry Sellers]

I believe it. It just really soured me on the whole company. Don't get me wrong, I still mostly own Glocks, but it pissed me right off. They redeemed themselves later though, to a degree. If I were in charge of a company, I would not skimp on customer service. I'd get decent people and empower them to take care of problems at their level. Good customer service really does earn lifelong customers.

DSG Arms is an example of this. I've called them a couple of times with questions and every time, they've gone way above and beyond in answering questions, and or helping me with issues I've had. In turn, I've spent a bunch of money there and keep going back. they aren't always the cheapest, but they are competitive and they are a stand up company that takes care of their customers. Botach on the other hand usually has stupid good deals, but their customer service and shipping is so atrociously bad, I refuse to shop there anymore. I've rage cancelled more orders there then I've actually received, and that's not an exaggeration.


Rage cancel...one of my favorite things to do on a day off. Especially with shit customer service.

[EVP]

If you like your FNs, which it seems you do I think part of the resolution should be to let you take the armourer courses. Honestly FN should want customers like you who shoot there guns and tell people about how much you like their product.

[Trajan]

The owner isn't allowed to fully disassemble the FNS? That bugs me.

I think the FNS should be more popular than it is. It's basically a well built M&P.

[coN]

Perhaps thats why it hasnt caught on with more people and LE agencies. And with the M&P 2.0 possibly fixing the full size 9mm accuracy (and lack of grip) issue, its gonna be a tough market to compete in with S&W, Glock, HK, Walther, Sig, Beretta, and now even frickin CZ, etc. But competition is always good.

[SsevenN]

***UPDATE***

Got a the call back.

I was told the reason for the charge for the replacement slide was because of the round count of the gun.

The guy scott was immediately on the defensive and borderline hostile, I wasn't in great form either with a strained voice and blood pressure through the roof, but I did manage to keep the cussing to a low volume and I felt I articulated my position well.

I was interrogated about my treatment of the gun ("How do you clean it?" "What are your maintenance cycles like")

I was fed leading questions like "So you expect us to fix every one of your guns no matter what?" I said no, but for sure the FIRST time a gun breaks catastophically from normal wear and tear, yeah I do expect 100% service and an apology.

He put his foot down at selling it to me (the slide) at $150.00 and the audacity to say "I'll eat the cost of the labor" What the fucking fuck lol.

The fucked up part? He kept saying he loved how much I shot and loved their guns, I kept responding saying don't you get it? I'm selling them all and never shooting them again.

He also thought I was full of shit that glock fixes shit no questions asked - he didn't say it out loud but it was implied.

I also asked him if Dave Sevigny paid for replacing wear and tear parts (I know a facile and low blow but it felt good)


My grand finale question to him was "So you are willing to lose a life long, dedicated enthusiast customer who would spend thousands more dollars with you over the years over the cost of a slide?" - I didn't get a response to that.

He didn't question at all my detail stripping of the slide or not returning it every 2k rounds shot.

So I have canceled/switched my 3 holster orders over to my HK P30L - despite the controls not being where I like this will be my stop-gap gun until the VP9s with button mag releases arrive, sucks that I won't be able to sell one of these guns (the 4") until my EFK threaded bbl gets here.

The moment this pistol comes back, its time to take some nice pictures and I'm off to gun broker.

I'm selling a FNS-9L a FNS-9 a FNS-40L a FNS-9c - I'm going to keep the 5.7 because I bought it like 12 years ago when the anti-gunners were in arms (pun intended) to get it banned because of it's AP characteristics, I thought that might happen and that it would go up in value, regardless they are holding value really well and it's just a safe queen.


TL;DR FNH was super impressed and happy that I shot their guns so much.... and the reason they wouldn't cover the repair is because.... I shot my guns so much. People who actively shoot their guns should avoid FNH USA like the plague.


If words are not adequately conveying my disposition at the moment, please reference the image below.

EDIT to add - even if they did cover the slide cost I would be 100% done - two different customer service reps and both were rude with terrible "bedside manner"

[LockedBreech]

Well, can't say you didn't give them a chance.

You could always try to run it up the flagpole. Email the company, explain the entire process in writing, name everyone you talked to, and reiterate that you're ready to abandon the company without better service and that the matter is being publicly discussed on a shooting forum.

Remember. Polite, Professional, Persistent. This is still a pretty new matter on their plate. Maybe I should add a 4th P of Patient (not intended to be snarky, just thinking out loud). Not sure what the word is for "cubed" when the exponent is 4, though.

Of course, if you're fully fed up at this point, HK is as good a choice as any. I passed on a screaming deal on the FNS myself a year or two ago due to reports from a few LE agencies that issued them that they did not hold up especially well to field/duty use. Similar to the XD series, reliable and functional for a while but without the longevity of a Glock, HK, or Sig.

[SsevenN]

Well, can't say you didn't give them a chance.

You could always try to run it up the flagpole. Email the company, explain the entire process in writing, name everyone you talked to, and reiterate that you're ready to abandon the company without better service and that the matter is being publicly discussed on a shooting forum.

Remember. Polite, Professional, Persistent. This is still a pretty new matter on their plate. Maybe I should add a 4th P of Patient (not intended to be snarky, just thinking out loud). Not sure what the word is for "cubed" when the exponent is 4, though.

Of course, if you're fully fed up at this point, HK is as good a choice as any. I passed on a screaming deal on the FNS myself a year or two ago due to reports from a few LE agencies that issued them that they did not hold up especially well to field/duty use. Similar to the XD series, reliable and functional for a while but without the longevity of a Glock, HK, or Sig.

Appreciate the support. I could do that, but I'm past fed up. Me and FNH have broken up, we are splits, the honeymoon is over. They can go fuck a rake.

[ssb]

Some takeaways I drew:
1) ToddG once wrote something to the effect of, "uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason." The reasons aren't always bad reasons and the guns don't always suck, but it should give some pause before jumping on the 29th iteration of the Glock Killer (tm).
1a) Track record still matters. A manufacturer that's done large government contracts and had wide success in the LE market -- and private market success that typically runs subsequently or even concurrently -- probably has a handle on the whole durability thing. Likewise, they've probably figured out how to provide effective service for those guns if and when they fail.
2) Making a marketing representation to customers that your guns are capable of long-term high round count firing schedules (relative to the <500 rounds/year crowd) and not fixing them when they suffer catastrophic failures relatively early in their service life is a dick move.

As to FN not being established, it's my understanding they make lots of cool stuff that's seen widespread adoption by various militaries around the world, including our own: the M16/M4 contract, M249/various Minimi derivatives, M240/MAG derivatives, SCAR-Hs, as well as a legacy of lots of really cool historical stuff (FALs, BHPs, etc.) that basically everybody used. What they don't appear to have is much -- if any presence -- in the domestic pistol market, particularly in the form of fleets of FNS's or their previous flagship pistols (FNP, FNX, etc.) in service with large LE departments over the long term. I have no doubt they're a competent manufacturer capable of putting out a quality product. What they lack, however, is a pistol-centric track record in the US, and because of that it seems probable that they don't have the institutional kinks worked out like SIG, HK, S&W (to an extent), and Glock do.

I've had two "big" failures with guns I've owned. One was a legacy SIG that ended up at the factory and was handled no-questions-asked (to include shipping). The other was a Glock that was fixed with <$20 in parts, a YouTube video, and a minor amount of profanity. In the case of one manufacturer, I can quite literally build the entire gun without using a single OEM part at this point, I order pretty much every part in the pistol online, and armorers are abundant (most of the ranges and LGSs in my area have certified armorers on staff). On the other, factory support seems to be more than adequate for service needs. Both approaches give me warm fuzzies when I spend almost as much (if not more, in the case of Glock) money on mags, holsters, sights, and various aftermarket trinkets than I spend on the pistols themselves, and it was a factor in both purchase decisions.

[Cory]

Looks like i'll be encouraging my brother to look at other brands. He has been eyeing the FNX9 for a bit.

I'm sorry to hear this. I like Glocks and Berettas, but plenty of folks like HK. Best of luck with a new platform.

-Cory

[Kirk]

I really hate how this ended up. Honestly, if I was in corporate at FN (I'm certainly not), I'd definitely fix these problems at no cost. Very few individuals shoot their guns anywhere near that much, so this is a rare issue. Not only that, but a guy that shoots a gun this much is a valued customer and will buy numerous other guns. Also, a guy who is this angry and outspoken about the issue while shooting the gun this much is more likely to go to the web and bash my product to everyone. All over $200ish bucks (actual cost) in a very rare instance. If they had simply repaired the gun at no cost, they would have turned a negative into a very big positive.

Glock apparently DOES fix virtually all guns no questions asked, as long as the gun doesn't have modifications. I have a friend who shoots A LOT and has sent back numerous guns to Glock over the years. I'm not sure of the market data on such actions, but from a grass roots level, these actions seem to have an impact.

[45dotACP]

Damn, that's pretty fucked up. Well at least I know which gun company I won't be buying from.

[Edwin]

Snail mail letter, hand signed to the upper levels will light a fire under their asses. Works every time.

[ReverendMeat]

FN screwed the pooch, plain and simple. I feel your rage man, had sworn off sig a couple years back for less

[ralph]

OP, you gave them every chance to make it right. I agree with the poster who stated that FN had a chance to reaĺly make it right by just replacing the slide at no cost. A simple good will gesture like that gets you as a company a life long customer, who would've likely told everybody he knows. Advertising like that, you can't buy. Instead, they threw this opportunity away. Well, now you know how much you can rely on FN to fix anything. You made a good choice with HK, I own 4 of their pistols, dead nuts reliable, very accurate, and the one time I had to use HK's customer service they were stellar.

I had bought a LEM kit from HkUSA, and installed it myself, In my HK45ct, it worked fine except that when I pulled the trigger, the hammer would flop back like it was'nt under pressure from the hammer spring.(it was) I made a short vid, showing this and sent it to HKUSA, I got an email back from their head 'smith at the time who told me he knew exactly what the problem was, sent me a shipping label. I boxed it up and sent it off, by 9:00am the following morning it was at HK. By 1-2:00pm the same day, it was fixed, test fired, boxed up and on the truck back to me, I had it in my hands the following day, total turn around time was about 27 hrs..all at NO COST to me. HK could've been shitheads and said that since I installed the LEM kit I was responsible, but, they did'nt. They stepped up to the plate, and offered to help,and make it right at no cost..I never forgot that..

[fly out]

Too bad we are unlikely to hear FN's side of this. I'd like to hear if they have any sort of rationale for their decision, or if there is more to this that seemed relevant to them. Based on how this has been related to us here, FN's response doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

It's all a little bit theoretical for me, because they don't have anything I want at the moment, but if they would have followed through with an FNX-C, I'd have been a buyer. Still would. (Hint, hint, FN...I'm sure your Google Alerts have been blowing up in the last 24 hours.)

[nwhpfan]

Early on OP you said you should calm down. That would have been my advice too. You get the bees with honey if you didn't know. Sounds like you did a lot when you desribed your follow-up phone call. Still, doens't sound like you got what you were hoping for. HK customer service is legendary. I'll leave it at that. FWIW I've had to call FNH and was dissapointed in their response...I've called HK and gotten everything - to as bad as your experience here. FWIW I think their is value in learning how to maintain your guns yourself. ESPECIALLY since you are shooting so many rounds. Not all guns are as simple as a Glock or M&P but if I shoot 15k rounds year, I do 2x in DF.

[Trajan]

Is the FNS/X only made by FN USA? It does not appear on the FNH website....

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/products-capabilities/handguns.html

[L-2]

Is the FNS/X only made by FN USA? It does not appear on the FNH website....

http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/products-capabilities/handguns.html

See this website address, instead: https://fnamerica.com/pistols/

or, https://fnamerica.com/pistols/fns-series/

For the OP (original poster), if it helps, I was considering a new AR rifle; FN was considered, but no more, especially after this thread's situation.

[Olim9]

Sounds like time to switch to the VP9 like you suggested. It hasn't been tested thorougly like Todd's P30 and HK45 test but it's a no brainer that HK knows how to make pistols that hold their own and can easily exceed the 16,000 round mark. The fact that the VP9SK and VP9L are coming out makes it pretty much a no brainer.

I never really cared for the FNS series of pistols and I'm pretty glad I never did. I almost bought one a while back myself.

[Balisong]

Thanks for sharing this experience OP. I'm sorry this ended up so crappy for you, especially from a company that you've wholeheartedly supported and endorsed for so long, that really has to sting. I despise awful customer service, and I don't find 16,000 rounds of normal firing to be an acceptable number for this catastrophic of a failure. Springs or maybe small parts like an extractor, ok, but not a totally jacked up slide. These FN pistols were barely on my radar before now, but I definitely won't be buying one now. And this isn't the first I've heard bad about their CS, but this is especially lousy.
Luckily there plenty of polymer fish in the sea.
Thanks again

[LittleLebowski]

You are my favorite person on the internet sir.

If there is ever anything I can do for you, name it, I mean that.

Just let me know if you don't hear from FN in say, a week. Obviously, a Dillon 650 is the best way to say thank you :cool:

[SsevenN]

I'm going to make a quick formal apology to you guys for any of my comments or bits of my attitude that were inappropriate or not keeping with the spirit of this forum.

Not that this is an excuse...But I quit smoking butts/got off nicotine entirely 9 months ago, I've basically had these flashes of pure rage ever since, and the day I started this thread was the most upsetting day I've had in that time frame.

Also I primarily post on forums that are a lot more rough around the edges and my debate/conversation style is kind of infected with that disposition.

Sorry for any disrespect guys.

Sorry LittleL not sure how I quoted you on this but EDIT to fix

EDIT2 Hiro sorry for being combative and Tom sorry for making you herd cats

[Luke]

Dude it's totally cool, my sister in law is bipolar too.




















Edit to add the :) so you knew I was kidding

[SsevenN]

Dude it's totally cool, my sister in law is bipolar too.




















Edit to add the :) so you knew I was kidding

YOU MOTHERFU...

Kidding!! I'm going to work on exercising my more refined and presentable communication skills to better participate in this little slice of pistol heaven. This place really is the next step in software focused pistol discussions.

EDIT to add - while I know you said that in jest but at times since quitting nicotine I have felt schitzo/bi-polar. At work with long term work colleagues I've been told by multiple people ""SsevenN" doesn't get mad" - well in the last 9 months I have painted a brand-new picture for them on that account.

LittleL - no idea why you are default quoted in my quick response, clearly ABP and NoScript are not playing nice with this website.

[1slow]

I'm glad you posted this. No FN pistols for me.

I've shot FALs since the 1980s and had several FN special police rifles that were very accurate and trouble free.

Little VP9 experience, 30,000 rounds through P30 V1 LEM 9mms, broke a trigger spring an my dryfire and practice gun no big deal. P30s have been very good. HK45s, HK USP 45, HK USPT 45 and P2000SK LEM 9mm have been trouble free. Todd, Darryl and GJM were influences.

Carried and shot Glocks: GL21,30,19,17, starting 1990, for 23 years (10,000 rounds+ yearly) very little trouble a few trigger coil springs, slide stops, take down springs.

[fixer]

Too bad this didn't turn out better. You'd think in 2017 manufacturers would learn a little good will does wonders, but "bad will" will turn into a flame thread that costs them four times as many customers.

I can honestly say I've never even remotely needed any Glock or Beretta customer service program and I've had dozens of each over the years.

[KevinB]

I am surprised how this turned out.

I had forwarded this to FNA's Pistol guys hoping to get past the Customer Service folks.

FNA's marketing folks also scan the web for FN America related topics and I had expected that this would be flagged for oversight.

[Hambo]

Not that this is an excuse...But I quit smoking butts/got off nicotine entirely 9 months ago, I've basically had these flashes of pure rage ever since, and the day I started this thread was the most upsetting day I've had in that time frame.


I was going to say...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

[Nephrology]

I can honestly say I've never even remotely needed any Glock or Beretta customer service program and I've had dozens of each over the years.

As long as we're telling happy stories... I routinely send old, beat mags to Glock - even if I bought them old and beat - and they send me brand-new replacements 1:1. I just got 5x new Glock 19 mags in the mail that were older LE marked and malfunctioning. Only cost to me was the 1-way shipping to them. Can't complain.

[Trajan]

See this website address, instead: https://fnamerica.com/pistols/

or, https://fnamerica.com/pistols/fns-series/

For the OP (original poster), if it helps, I was considering a new AR rifle; FN was considered, but no more, especially after this thread's situation.
Yeah that's my point. Are these pistols US market only?

[Doc_Glock]

As long as we're telling happy stories... I routinely send old, beat mags to Glock - even if I bought them old and beat - and they send me brand-new replacements 1:1. I just got 5x new Glock 19 mags in the mail that were older LE marked and malfunctioning. Only cost to me was the 1-way shipping to them. Can't complain.

Oh man great idea. I have a few of these right now and they are the only mags that malfunction for me.

[jeep45238]

As long as we're telling happy stories... I routinely send old, beat mags to Glock - even if I bought them old and beat - and they send me brand-new replacements 1:1. I just got 5x new Glock 19 mags in the mail that were older LE marked and malfunctioning. Only cost to me was the 1-way shipping to them. Can't complain.

Ooooohhhh

This I was unaware of.

[LockedBreech]

Called Glock U.S. today and asked about doing this with the 3 old beaten LE/Mil magazines that came with my G23 trade-in, and representative Kevin acted very confused and said nothing like that has ever happened during his tenure. Maybe I need to get the right guy.


As long as we're telling happy stories... I routinely send old, beat mags to Glock - even if I bought them old and beat - and they send me brand-new replacements 1:1. I just got 5x new Glock 19 mags in the mail that were older LE marked and malfunctioning. Only cost to me was the 1-way shipping to them. Can't complain.

[Nephrology]

Ooooohhhh

This I was unaware of.


Oh man great idea. I have a few of these right now and they are the only mags that malfunction for me.

Yup, I always just include a quick "please repair or replace" note detailing the size/caliber# of mags and a return address/phone #. They turn them around in about a week in my experience.


Called Glock U.S. today and asked about doing this with the 3 old beaten LE/Mil magazines that came with my G23 trade-in, and representative Kevin acted very confused and said nothing like that has ever happened during his tenure. Maybe I need to get the right guy.

shh... don't tell him!

[LockedBreech]

I did it wrong :(

[LockedBreech]

Since this thread is already mildly derailed, please forgive a small derailment further.

I bought a Duxbury, Massachusetts trade in Glock 23 Gen 3 in 2015 (Duxbury PD 49). I figured at 2015, the gun had probably been carried 5-10 years, similar to my M&P that I bought in 2016 with a 2010 manufacture date.

Called Glock today and they said my gun was imported March 1, 1999 and issued to that agency March 11, 1999. So my gun has 16 years of being carried.

When I got the gun, I replaced the guide rod, recoil spring, firing pin safety, firing pin spring, trigger spring, extractor depressor plunger spring, slide lock spring, magazine release spring, slide stop release, locking block, and magazines. I did not replace the barrel, extractor, extractor plunger, firing pin, firing pin channel liner, or frame pins.

I have shot the gun several times since without issue. With 16 years of carry, are there any other components I should swap out just to be safe? Wondering most about the extractor itself.

[hiro]

Since this thread is already mildly derailed, please forgive a small derailment further.

I bought a Duxbury, Massachusetts trade in Glock 23 Gen 3 in 2015 (Duxbury PD 49). I figured at 2015, the gun had probably been carried 5-10 years, similar to my M&P that I bought in 2016 with a 2010 manufacture date.

Called Glock today and they said my gun was imported March 1, 1999 and issued to that agency March 11, 1999. So my gun has 16 years of being carried.

When I got the gun, I replaced the guide rod, recoil spring, firing pin safety, firing pin spring, trigger spring, extractor depressor plunger spring, slide lock spring, magazine release spring, slide stop release, locking block, and magazines. I did not replace the barrel, extractor, extractor plunger, firing pin, firing pin channel liner, or frame pins.

I have shot the gun several times since without issue. With 16 years of carry, are there any other components I should swap out just to be safe? Wondering most about the extractor itself.

Doesn't answer your question specifically (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?975-Glock-Maintenance) but I don't see any mention of replacing the extractor as a scheduled thing.

ETA: The Glock Armorers Manual link still works tho the link next to it doesn't. The armorers course is $250 and they hold them frequently here in CO, I'll sign up to one as soon as I can.

ETA2: Can anyone tell me if the download is the latest Glock Armorers Manual please?

[Doc_Glock]

Called Glock U.S. today and asked about doing this with the 3 old beaten LE/Mil magazines that came with my G23 trade-in, and representative Kevin acted very confused and said nothing like that has ever happened during his tenure. Maybe I need to get the right guy.

Hahaha I also talked to Kevin. Got nowhere.

[LockedBreech]

Doesn't answer your question specifically (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?975-Glock-Maintenance) but I don't see any mention of replacing the extractor as a scheduled thing.

That makes me feel better, looks like I got all the critical wear bits. And the barrel still looks nicely rifled and shoots fine. And extraction beats my 2015-manf Gen 4 Glock. Thanks for the response.


Hahaha I also talked to Kevin. Got nowhere.

Haha! Kevin is like "Wtf is happening."

[Mitch]

Haha. I may have to call and ask Kevin about my two friends that got free mags.


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[LockedBreech]

Haha. I may have to call and ask Kevin about my two friends that got free mags.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"They said you specifically told them all Glock magazines are free."


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[Doc_Glock]

"They said you specifically told them all Glock magazines are free."


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Not like the jerks at FN that make you pay for mags.

[Chef]

I live in Atlanta and wor close enough to Glock that I can stop by on long lunch hours. They are super nice and rebuild/replace every single mag I bring- EXCEPT the 33 rounders- no love for those.

OP, this sucks and hopeful they make it right for you.

[farscott]

For those Glock owners who want to shoot a match and get some maintenance done, join GSSF and have a Glock armorer go over your pistol at any GSSF match. I once witnessed a Glock armorer at an "Indoor League" match in Marietta, GA, start with a stripped frame and complete upper that was bought that way and install all of the internals free of charge. I thought that Glock went way above and beyond in that case. I have had recoil spring assemblies and a chipped extractor replaced.

One warning: GSSF requires guns to have stock Glock internals.

[typical_user]

I'm not upset at all that it broke.

I'm upset because I am now staring down a financial cliff of invested $$$ and time in this platform, with a ton of aftermarket parts currently in limbo, and if they don't make good with the fix I am going to have burn a ton of money getting away from the platform and burn tons of time re-training and worst of all - now I don't even want to shoot my FNS-40L, I have this terrible taste in my mouth. My weekend plans are completely ruined and I'm directionless.

So... you have a ton of aftermarket parts in limbo... just sitting there... You totally didn't modify the pistol with aftermarket parts, then try to claim the warranty? You do realize modifying it VOIDS THE WARRANTY, right? I would also assume that FN would know if a part is in their pistol that isn't theirs. Now you are trying to force their arm by crying to the internet?

Really?

[typical_user]

Did you register just so you could post that?

Sure did. He started shooting his mouth off on other forums already, and then linked here. Expect more of this.

[hufnagel]

IBTB
(in before the ban)

[Cory]

So... you have a ton of aftermarket parts in limbo... just sitting there... You totally didn't modify the pistol with aftermarket parts, then try to claim the warranty? You do realize modifying it VOIDS THE WARRANTY, right? I would also assume that FN would know if a part is in their pistol that isn't theirs. Now you are trying to force their arm by crying to the internet?

Really?

Welcome to the forum. Generally we take folks at face value here. Especially when we have no reason not too. A lot of accusations made, and a lot of assumptions made. I certainly hope that you feel you did something of value signing up to post this.

More importantly, I would love you hear your experience with FN and how it differs. Or your experience with their customer service. Or really anything that adds to the thread besides accusations.

-Cory

[SsevenN]

So... you have a ton of aftermarket parts in limbo... just sitting there... You totally didn't modify the pistol with aftermarket parts, then try to claim the warranty? You do realize modifying it VOIDS THE WARRANTY, right? I would also assume that FN would know if a part is in their pistol that isn't theirs. Now you are trying to force their arm by crying to the internet?

Really?

The parts in limbo were as follows.

(3) baseplate extenders
(3) custom holsters
(3) sets of talon grips
(3) sets of houge grips
(1) EFK threaded barrel

Nothing for the completely unmodded internals.

[Cory]

He won't be able to reply as his account is set to read-only. I'm loath to do such things, but I'm currently very busy and don't have time to mentor a new user that, by his own admission, joined so he could call someone out.

typical_user: if you have a problem with what SsevenN posted on other forums, you can take it up with him there. PF isn't really a drive-by callout sort of place.

I see. I was actually serious about hearing how FN customer service has treated others. If anyone reading has had different interaction with FN when a firearm has broken during the course of normal use (even heavy normal use) I would genuinely like to hear about it. My brother is thinking about purchasing an FN and looks to me somewhat for guidance on gun stuff. I'm also wondering why a company that has such a strong base in the military market and such a track record is so drastically different in the civilian market with lack of track record and almost missing in action.

-Cory

[SsevenN]

He won't be able to reply as his account is set to read-only. I'm loath to do such things, but I'm currently very busy and don't have time to mentor a new user that, by his own admission, joined so he could call someone out.

typical_user: if you have a problem with what SsevenN posted on other forums, you can take it up with him there. PF isn't really a drive-by callout sort of place.

ETA: I'm not really fond of PF being used to wage some sort of online war against anyone or anything. If that's what this thread is going to devolve into I will close it and likely take other action.

I hope I haven't done anything inappropriate..

I was asked how my experience with my FNS guns was going on another board (because I was a notorious huge fanboy zealot for two years) and rather than type everything out or copy and paste it I just linked here so I wouldn't have to go through the same line of questioning again.

If been typing a lot the last two days...

If you think it's better for the forum I won't link here - let me know.

EDIT I know I lit this fire, but it is raging out of control and being fed by individuals across the net....Would I post it again? Of course, this needs to be known. Would I be less honest and candid about specifics relating to me personally and not the gun? Absolutely.

[H&KFanNC]

SsevenN,

Have you heard back from FN for a final determination of your issue?

I am really on the fence on how I feel about this. On one hand, the manual states 2K rounds, it needs to be checked. Wether you like it or not, agree or not, that's what it says. Also, springs have a life span. We all know it. Not knowing the exact recommended time/round count to change them or have them changed seems to me that would lead you to err on the side of caution. Normal spring breakage would be a minor inconvenience so if you ignore the recommended course of action, replace it when it breaks. In this case, a stupid spring broke and kittened up your slide. That's just bad luck on top of bad luck.

On the other hand, FN is requiring ridiculous maintenance schedule for their gun. Not providing some kind of parts wear guidance and inferring a lifetime warranty and not backing it up is lame.

I know one thing, I will never own a FN firearm after hearing your story! Hope FN is paying attention...

Good Luck!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SsevenN]

SsevenN,

Have you heard back from FN for a final determination of your issue?

I am really on the fence on how I feel about this. On one hand, the manual states 2K rounds, it needs to be checked. Wether you like it or not, agree or not, that's what it says. Also, springs have a life span. We all know it. Not knowing the exact recommended time/round count to change them or have them changed seems to me that would lead you to err on the side of caution. Normal spring breakage would be a minor inconvenience so if you ignore the recommended course of action, replace it when it breaks. In this case, a stupid spring broke and kittened up your slide. That's just bad luck on top of bad luck.

On the other hand, FN is requiring ridiculous maintenance schedule for their gun. Not providing some kind of parts wear guidance and inferring a lifetime warranty and not backing it up is lame.

I know one thing, I will never own a FN firearm after hearing your story! Hope FN is paying attention...

Good Luck!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As far as I'm aware my conversation with Scott detailed on page 12 was the last interaction I will have with FNH USA. The result was the ultimatum of "pay $150.00 for the slide or we will return this bricked garbage to you"

So I paid the $150.00 on credit expressing very explicitly my intent to never touch their products again and fire sale everything I owned while simultaneously warning every other gun owner I come into contact with, he seemed fine with that conclusion, even content, at this point it is hilarious in the most satirical sense.

EDIT:So I was just threatened with a "stop talking about this or else" by an individual who thought he was clever by data mining my IRL first name on a board, until the mods instantly vacuumed the whole thing - I shit you not.... Is this real life? Am I that out of line? I don't feel I am. FWIW this (IE: The thread here on p-f) is the ONLY singular original post and thread I have made about this incident - anywhere, and I linked it externally exactly once. I wish that thread didn't get bricked like my gun, if it turns out that was an FNH USA employee I would have sued them.

[hufnagel]

you can contact the admins on the other forum and let them know the thread should be hidden archived and not deleted, as there could potentially be legal implications with the user's posted threat. also I'd make note of user's name for future reference.

[SsevenN]

EDITFWIW this (IE: The thread here on p-f) is the ONLY singular original post and thread I have made about this incident - anywhere, and I linked it externally exactly once. I wish that thread didn't get bricked like my gun, if it turns out that was an FNH USA employee I would have sued them.

For the sake of being transparent and posterity, this statement is no longer true, I just went ICBM on another board.

Also to be absolutely clear I will not associate p-f with any asshattery or posting I do elsewhere, the last thing I want is to drag this forum through the mud. In fact the reason I made such a detailed post about this incident here and here alone (detailed here only) is because you guys are quality and worth it.

[H&KFanNC]

Sorry to hear that, OP.

As for the dude that threatened you, I'd like to think that it was nobody on this site as the Mods here are pretty damn sharp!!

Good Luck with whichever brand you choose next. Obviously, I am partial to HK!


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[John Hearne]

I haven't been following this thread so sorry for being late.

All modern pistols are designed with a certain service life. The days of 100,000+ round pistols is long gone. The manufacturers want to keep that service life as low as possible as it allows them to design cheaper products if they don't have to last as long.

I don't know how to prove this but manufacturers have been lowering the service life for decades now. Sigs built in the 90's last longer because they used better quality parts. In an effort to keep themselves price competitive, Sig started using cheaper internals. This means that their pistols no longer last as long but only a tiny fraction of end users will ever know. A well known trainer used to shoot 228's and sent his most recent one back when it started to fail at 14,000 rounds. He was informed that he had exceeded the life of the pistol by 4,000 rounds. He no longer carries Sigs.

Realistically, if a manufacturer builds a pistol that lasts 5,000 rounds then they will have met the needs of 99% of their customers. They can double that to 10,000 rounds and probably keep 99.8% of their customers happy. If you are in that minute minority who needs more service life then you had better be prepared to buy another pistol.*

FN probably won't admit it but you've probably exceeded the expected service life of the gun and they think it's time you buy a whole new one.

Modern pistols are disposable consumer items.

* I can't remember the exact number now but part of the reason the P320 probably won the Army contract was they only tested them to 10,000 rounds or so.

[farscott]

I haven't been following this thread so sorry for being late.

All modern pistols are designed with a certain service life. The days of 100,000+ round pistols is long gone. The manufacturers want to keep that service life as low as possible as it allows them to design cheaper products if they don't have to last as long.

[snip]

FN probably won't admit it but you've probably exceeded the expected service life of the gun and they think it's time you buy a whole new one.

Modern pistols are disposable consumer items.

I find this idea interesting in light of two facts:

1) The increasing popularity of high-round count tests, like those done by the late TLG and by EL. And those tests being used to advertise how strong pistols are. Mr. Langdon's results with the PX4CC prototype running at such a high-round count was a factor in my decision to purchase as were TLG's results with the P30.

2) Many people today shoot much more than people did 100 years ago. There are many people on this board who shoot much more than 5000 rounds per year, which would mean that a pistol's average lifetime would be about a year or two. As such, we should be wearing out a lot of pistols. But I am not seeing that on my personal weapons. I am, of course, keeping up with maintenance, and I have still broken more than a few gun parts. But my last "deadline" failure was a crack in an alloy-framed Colt "Lightweight Commander". The modern guns just run. I am still waiting for the first P30 magazine to fail.

It is, of course, possible that some manufacturers are all too aware that many new guns never see more than a box of shells in a lifetime and are designing to that fact (S&W zinc-alloy .380). I just do not see the Glocks, Berettas, and HKs of the world doing that nor anyone going after the service pistol market. I assume there may be a bifurcation in pistol designs, where some guns are designed for lower round counts and less abuse while others are designed for LE/MIL usage.

[JAD]

Mr. Hearne said "modern pistols."

[hiro]

Mr. Hearne said "modern pistols."

LMAO! :D

[GardoneVT]

I find this idea interesting in light of two facts:

1) The increasing popularity of high-round count tests, like those done by the late TLG and by EL. And those tests being used to advertise how strong pistols are. Mr. Langdon's results with the PX4CC prototype running at such a high-round count was a factor in my decision to purchase as were TLG's results with the P30.

2) Many people today shoot much more than people did 100 years ago. There are many people on this board who shoot much more than 5000 rounds per year, which would mean that a pistol's average lifetime would be about a year or two. As such, we should be wearing out a lot of pistols. But I am not seeing that on my personal weapons. I am, of course, keeping up with maintenance, and I have still broken more than a few gun parts. But my last "deadline" failure was a crack in an alloy-framed Colt "Lightweight Commander". The modern guns just run. I am still waiting for the first P30 magazine to fail.

It is, of course, possible that some manufacturers are all too aware that many new guns never see more than a box of shells in a lifetime and are designing to that fact (S&W zinc-alloy .380). I just do not see the Glocks, Berettas, and HKs of the world doing that nor anyone going after the service pistol market. I assume there may be a bifurcation in pistol designs, where some guns are designed for lower round counts and less abuse while others are designed for LE/MIL usage.

It should be noted that compared to the overall population of gun owners,we are a long way from the middle of the bell curve.

I remember a novice student asking a pistol instructor ,in total seriousness, if an HK P30 could break from being stored in a kitchen drawer. She elaborated upon conclusion of that basic pistol class it would be stored in the drawer indefinitley .

She's a lot closer to the round count mean then any of us here.

[Edwin]

I wonder what the service life of the Wilson Combat EDC X9 is?
Wilson claims one of the prototypes has over 12k rounds with no malfunctions with just lube and regards maintenance. ,

[ranger]

Has any major pistol manufacturer publicly posted a service life round count? I agree that most pistols are seldom shot and are often consumables sold at a price point - but, that is also all the reason for a major manufacturer to provide exceptional service for the very few pistols that are shot to a failure point. We have a very high volume shooter at my club who favors M&P 9mms - he has gotten great CS from S&W because they recognize he is a high volume shooter plus there is no telling how many M&Ps are sold in our area due to his example. Same with Glock - whenever I buy a used Glock I swing by Smryna and they "inspect" the pistol - in my experience I leave with the same frame, slide, and barrel but all small parts replaced, test fired, and new magazines.

[Sigfan26]

It honestly would have cost FN less money to give you a new gun. They have lost, at least, 3 sales off of this thread. Not just of the affected pistol, either. I had recommended my brother (anesthesiologist that is looking at picking up a used Gallardo and a high end semi auto rifle this year) look at a SCAR17. I have since pulled the recommendation and suggested a Knights, La Rue, or even one of the Sig offerings. All of that is over a product that MIGHT cost the company $200.


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[spinmove_]

Can't say as I was terribly lured towards FN products, but after seeing how they treat their customers I don't think I'll be buying any of their stuff anytime soon.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[kitten_frenzy]

It honestly would have cost FN less money to give you a new gun. They have lost, at least, 3 sales off of this thread. Not just of the affected pistol, either. I had recommended my brother (anesthesiologist that is looking at picking up a used Gallardo and a high end semi auto rifle this year) look at a SCAR17. I have since pulled the recommendation and suggested a Knights, La Rue, or even one of the Sig offerings. All of that is over a product that MIGHT cost the company $200.


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Make that 3.5
I was seriously considering an FNS9C

[LockedBreech]

I can get a pretty good discount on the FNS-9 and had considered it when window-shopping a number of times. While I can't say I'll never buy one on this thread alone, I can say it discouraged it, so maybe 3.75 now.

[SsevenN]

So now that this has been concluded I wanted to kind of cover my final thoughts.

This whole situation to me is basically a people skills issue, I think if I had got even just a slightly better interaction with the two customer services reps I could have been managed better and not gotten so offended.

OK I know Scott isn't a mind reader, but if he had brought this up and framed it like follows "Hey SsevenN, I see you love our guns, and I'm sorry but I do have to charge you for this fix, the reason is you completely ignored the maintenance standards in the manual. I also get that these standards don't fit with your shooting habits, and I want you to keep shooting our gun. So how about if we come to an agreement where you send us the gun every 8,000 rounds and we will risk the additional wear and tear, or how about you go ahead and buy another FNS pistol and when the 2k mark hits, we will cover the shipping and you can rotate guns - but I'm sorry with this negligence of the conditions I just can't hand these parts out."

If I had gotten a polite or friendly and a reasoned compromise instead of terse, completely unsympathetic attitude and basically an argument from him rather than a discussion, I'm pretty sure this whole situation would be different and I'd be back to raging fanboy status and this whole thread either would not exist or would be an FNH hugbox.

What do you guys think, is that a reasonable conclusion for me to make?

[LockedBreech]

Customer service is supposed to serve. When I call a company and I feel like I'm immediately trying to prove to them I'm not a liar, it's bad service.

Examples of good service are companies like Benchmade and Amazon, who are willing to take a small financial hit to keep a friendly, positive relationship with a customer. Thanks to Benchmade's cute, fun response to an issue that was totally my fault, I will probably buy 90% Benchmade knives forever. They are out of my typical price range, but I'm willing to spend more because they make good stuff and I know beyond a doubt they'll back it up.

I think it's entirely acceptable to end your relationship with a company because they were jerks.

[walker2713]

Nope: the burden wasn't on you....they're responsible for how this played out.

JMHO.

George

[octagon]

I haven't been following this thread so sorry for being late.

All modern pistols are designed with a certain service life. The days of 100,000+ round pistols is long gone. The manufacturers want to keep that service life as low as possible as it allows them to design cheaper products if they don't have to last as long.

I don't know how to prove this but manufacturers have been lowering the service life for decades now. Sigs built in the 90's last longer because they used better quality parts. In an effort to keep themselves price competitive, Sig started using cheaper internals. This means that their pistols no longer last as long but only a tiny fraction of end users will ever know. A well known trainer used to shoot 228's and sent his most recent one back when it started to fail at 14,000 rounds. He was informed that he had exceeded the life of the pistol by 4,000 rounds. He no longer carries Sigs.

Realistically, if a manufacturer builds a pistol that lasts 5,000 rounds then they will have met the needs of 99% of their customers. They can double that to 10,000 rounds and probably keep 99.8% of their customers happy. If you are in that minute minority who needs more service life then you had better be prepared to buy another pistol.*

FN probably won't admit it but you've probably exceeded the expected service life of the gun and they think it's time you buy a whole new one.

Modern pistols are disposable consumer items.

* I can't remember the exact number now but part of the reason the P320 probably won the Army contract was they only tested them to 10,000 rounds or so.



I agree with most of what is said above. I bought a new Sig P226 9 mm in 89 or 90 and it ran like a top from the day I got a good magazine from then on until I sold it in the mid 90s having put several thousand rounds through in prep for police academy and general shooting at least monthly. The agency I was hired by had switched from revolvers to P226 in 9mm a few years before I got there. The guns ran well in all our training with very few problems and often related to cleaning and maintenance not the gun. We switched to P226 in 40 a few years later and had nothing but problems with a lot of guns. Guns would seize up the slide,wear barrels down where you could feel roughness and galling, a ton of grip screws would loosen and fall out so much that RO had screwdrivers when we did our twice a year dept training outside or we would lose screw in the gravel. We tried to work with Sig and got a so what response with no real help. There was discussion that SIg switched to outsourcing parts and using stampings that didn't meet tolerances to work well from new to broken in and went straight to broken. This was so bad that we had no trouble convincing the management and city council to allow us to switch to Glock 22 in 40 just 2 years after the switch to P226 in 40. I can't confirm any of the accusations of Sig parts but in 200+ guns I saw a dozen broken guns in less than 2 years.

That said we had much better luck and customer service with Glock. No guns went back to them broken in the first few years and other than SWAT guns we didn't do any serious maintenance other than occasional spring or a few slide stops when guys tried to take their gun apart and broke the tip of the spring off putting it back together. My personal Glock 23 I posted a pic in the well worn carry guns thread has 30,000+ rounds through it carried everyday for 25+ years and been through several shooting schools. I have only replaced the RSA and a trigger spring or 3 and all when the gun was running fine as a precaution not a repair. That doesn't mean Sigs can't be just as reliable or others wouldn't have the opposite experience with great Sigs and crappy Glocks. I have to say that I have rarely ever heard or read a story of bad Glock customer service when the owner wasn't blowing up their gun with lead or reloads and wanting a new gun. That may be one of the reasons for Glocks popularity.

[John Hearne]

I agree with most of what is said above. ... We tried to work with Sig and got a so what response with no real help. There was discussion that SIg switched to outsourcing parts and using stampings that didn't meet tolerances to work well from new to broken in and went straight to broken. This was so bad that we had no trouble convincing the management and city council to allow us to switch to Glock 22 in 40 just 2 years after the switch to P226 in 40. I can't confirm any of the accusations of Sig parts but in 200+ guns I saw a dozen broken guns in less than 2 years. ... That said we had much better luck and customer service with Glock. No guns went back to them broken in the first few years and other than SWAT guns we didn't do any serious maintenance

I think that Sig is the worst case scenario of this. They have been selling metal framed pistols in a world that moved on to polymer. The material itself doesn't matter as the costs to create/machine a frame. The traditional Sig frame requires a lot of expensive machining to create. They cut corners on the internals and streamlined designs (the new large external extractor) to stay price competitive. Sigs still sell for the same basic amount that the did in the mid-80's. There's not way for that to happen without cutting corners somewhere. I read somewhere that to make a new P226 to the old standards would force them to sell the pistol for $1200-1500 - and that's for a basic pistol.

IIRC the cost to manufacture a Glock is between 125-150. That leave a lot of margin for better internals and the ability to provide a lot of replacement part or guns and still make money. If I had to guess, Sigs future was tied to the success of the P320. Had it failed, I don't know if they'd still be around. Sig didn't diversify into long guns, optics, and everything else for the fun of it - it was a survival strategy.

[Willard]

I had Ruger swap a new Match Champion for a Six Series that had a front latch issue at no cost (think they earned a long time customer and a lot of free advertising there?). I split a Glock frame at the lanyard loop (I asked if this was common on a different thread, but got little response, so guessing not) and they replaced the stripped frame with a new frame with all internal components intact at no charge (I paid shipping there which was around $85 or so if I recall, but not back). I consider the Glock experience a positive one, as the shipping would not have covered the difference in the stripped frame and a kitted out frame based on Glock Parts prices, so I still left a happy camper. Not up to what I experienced with Ruger, but still very good. S&W charged me reasonably for a repair, but not up to what I experienced with Ruger and Glock. SIG may/may not have done a repair, but at no cost (I could discern no difference, but I'm not questioning anyone's veracity, so I guess they did).

Things break (ideally they wouldn't, but they do), but it is the CS that matters when they do. This situation, based on the information posted here, is enough to put me off FN. I believe I've had far better customer service with every gun related issue that required factory intervention from several of the major players in every instance.

So essentially, this thread served two purposes for me: 1) bad press for FN; 2) good press for aforementioned companies. FN pays who knows how much for marketing and (corporately) must fully realize: 1) people trust other people more than they trust companies promoting their own products; 2) people are several times more likely to relay a negative experience than a positive one. Yet, based on the information presented here, the representatives tenaciously defend their decision to save a couple hundred bucks or less while ensuring a lot of bad PR for their company. The kind you can't spend away. I don't get it. Seems like a minion decision and I suspect if you went further up the chain, you'd get a better response. But that's just me.

[LockedBreech]

I have been fortunate to have lengthy in-depth conversations about firearms procurement with 3 different police agencies around where I'm at. All three are Glock agencies, and all three easily put customer service as one of the top reasons they either stayed Glock or switched to Glock. For police customers especially, they'll take a loss in a heartbeat for loyalty. People are often snide about that, saying Glock "buys" credibility, but you know what? Yeah. They do. Every company is supposed to. That's what spending money on both a quality product and a PR department is supposed to do, buy credibility. I have great respect for good CS.


I agree with most of what is said above. I bought a new Sig P226 9 mm in 89 or 90 and it ran like a top from the day I got a good magazine from then on until I sold it in the mid 90s having put several thousand rounds through in prep for police academy and general shooting at least monthly. The agency I was hired by had switched from revolvers to P226 in 9mm a few years before I got there. The guns ran well in all our training with very few problems and often related to cleaning and maintenance not the gun. We switched to P226 in 40 a few years later and had nothing but problems with a lot of guns. Guns would seize up the slide,wear barrels down where you could feel roughness and galling, a ton of grip screws would loosen and fall out so much that RO had screwdrivers when we did our twice a year dept training outside or we would lose screw in the gravel. We tried to work with Sig and got a so what response with no real help. There was discussion that SIg switched to outsourcing parts and using stampings that didn't meet tolerances to work well from new to broken in and went straight to broken. This was so bad that we had no trouble convincing the management and city council to allow us to switch to Glock 22 in 40 just 2 years after the switch to P226 in 40. I can't confirm any of the accusations of Sig parts but in 200+ guns I saw a dozen broken guns in less than 2 years.

That said we had much better luck and customer service with Glock. No guns went back to them broken in the first few years and other than SWAT guns we didn't do any serious maintenance other than occasional spring or a few slide stops when guys tried to take their gun apart and broke the tip of the spring off putting it back together. My personal Glock 23 I posted a pic in the well worn carry guns thread has 30,000+ rounds through it carried everyday for 25+ years and been through several shooting schools. I have only replaced the RSA and a trigger spring or 3 and all when the gun was running fine as a precaution not a repair. That doesn't mean Sigs can't be just as reliable or others wouldn't have the opposite experience with great Sigs and crappy Glocks. I have to say that I have rarely ever heard or read a story of bad Glock customer service when the owner wasn't blowing up their gun with lead or reloads and wanting a new gun. That may be one of the reasons for Glocks popularity.

[SsevenN]

I have been fortunate to have lengthy in-depth conversations about firearms procurement with 3 different police agencies around where I'm at. All three are Glock agencies, and all three easily put customer service as one of the top reasons they either stayed Glock or switched to Glock.

This right here should be stapled into the minds of every decision maker in the corporate world of firearms.

Hey, I'm not one of them, or qualified to tell them what's what.

But this is so easily observed and quantified even as a non participant, I am literally floored it is not SOP for every company vectoring for big contract sales (hello FNH, have you read this thread yet? Or are you just dead set on being deja vu Colt 2.0)

[ASH556]

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/8E263FF8-5301-4BD5-8E72-F639D6F84538.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/8E263FF8-5301-4BD5-8E72-F639D6F84538.jpg.html)

[ASH556]

Since I've been asked in a pm about the post above and in the spirit of keeping this an info-driven place, here's my explanation:

I think FN should have done a better job with customer service. However, tools wear over time and use. I don't think it's reasonable to wear out a product and then demand a manufacturer fix it for free. Both sides made errors in my opinion. The guy's initial post where he compares his pistol braeaking to a spouse cheating is insane...hence the meme.

[JonInWA]

I've read through all 20 pages of this thread, and here are my thoughts:

The initial poster's excess emotionalism in dealing with this issue was probably a significant causal factor in the lack of resolution. I understand his consternation, frustration and distress, but choosing a more dispassionate tone and words arguably would have had a greater chance of a successful resolution in his terms.

FN arguably could have had a more positive slant on the OP's issue(s) and their resolution, but the reality is the OP had subjected the gun through not insignificant usage. That makes him pretty much beholden to the largess of those he's seeking to resolve the problem, albeit at no or little/significantly reduced expense to him. Being adversarial, either in specific words or tone makes it easy to deny rather than be conciliatory.

I've had excellent results from Ruger, Glock, and SIG. But I've also taken the time to build relationships with them, and be factual, accurate and dispassionate when I encounter issues (which have been relatively few throughout the years). I did have a failed sear one of my earlier Hi Powers, after I'd owned it for years and put some 6K-8K rounds through it. Browning expeditiously repaired it,and I had an amicable discussion with the head of their service department, but I did pay full house given the age/use of the gun, which I didn't feel was particularly unreasonable. Ruger is consistently the best, in my experience.

I wish the OP well with his new platform(s).

Best, Jon

[El Cid]

I don't think it's reasonable to wear out a product and then demand a manufacturer fix it for free.

Yea, I don't think Craftsman does that anymore. Used to be if you found a broken tool they'd replace it no questions asked. While it creates brand loyalty it doesn't seem like a sustainable business model.

[Mark]

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/8E263FF8-5301-4BD5-8E72-F639D6F84538.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/8E263FF8-5301-4BD5-8E72-F639D6F84538.jpg.html)

Well this seems pretty inappropriate and certainly the opposite of constructive and helpful.

I think the OP certainly did let his emotions get the better of him and I agree that he should have handled his communication better. At the same time his round count wasn't too high and FN's maintenance requirements are not ones I'd be willing to live with. Seeing as how TLG proved that 50k rounds was no biggy in a Glock, HK (x2), M&P, and Springfield 1911, I'd be embarrassed by this if I was FN. did they have to fix it? No. Should they have? Yes. What's the impact on me? I'll never buy an FN product. What's the impact on anyone else? I don't know.

[hiro]

I feel uneasy quoting TLG as I am surrounded by people that called him a friend, but shit dude, TLG had a programme to replace parts before they failed.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?975-Glock-Maintenance&p=15769&viewfull=1#post15769


FWIW, I do not know how common the breakage is -- I've never seen it personally -- but two folks at Glock both recommended to me that I replace the magazine catch spring with some regularity. While breakage may be rare, if it snaps in two below the frame hole your pistol is essentially deadlined permanently. They've only seen them break when using the extended mag catch (which I don't run) due to the additional flexing, but I would hate for my test & carry gun to die.

My plan at present is to replace the recoil spring every 7,500 and then every 15,000 I'm going to replace:
recoil spring
firing pin block spring
striker spring
mag catch spring
takedown lever spring


It's also been suggested to me that the slide stop lever should be changed every 15k or so. I've got to call LAV and see if he can send me a few spare levers.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I've read through all 20 pages of this thread, and here are my thoughts:

The initial poster's excess emotionalism in dealing with this issue was probably a significant causal factor in the lack of resolution. I understand his consternation, frustration and distress, but choosing a more dispassionate tone and words arguably would have had a greater chance of a successful resolution in his terms.

FN arguably could have had a more positive slant on the OP's issue(s) and their resolution, but the reality is the OP had subjected the gun through not insignificant usage. That makes him pretty much beholden to the largess of those he's seeking to resolve the problem, albeit at no or little/significantly reduced expense to him. Being adversarial, either in specific words or tone makes it easy to deny rather than be conciliatory.

I've had excellent results from Ruger, Glock, and SIG. But I've also taken the time to build relationships with them, and be factual, accurate and dispassionate when I encounter issues (which have been relatively few throughout the years). I did have a failed sear one of my earlier Hi Powers, after I'd owned it for years and put some 6K-8K rounds through it. Browning expeditiously repaired it,and I had an amicable discussion with the head of their service department, but I did pay full house given the age/use of the gun, which I didn't feel was particularly unreasonable. Ruger is consistently the best, in my experience.

I wish the OP well with his new platform(s).

Best, Jon

I've been hesitant to comment myself since I've been treated well by FN (but then it's in their interest to treat me well since I'm publicizing the continued use of an FNS-9).

But I have to say that half the reason we even decided to shoot an FNS-9 is how responsive FN was to our comments and ideas before we ever talked about the 9mm test, and before there was any real tangible benefit to paying attention to me.

So I don't want to appear to be a mouthpiece for FN, but I also hesitate, based purely on the admittedly emotionally charged commentary of one party, to condemn their response to a two-party problem.

[SsevenN]

Got pretty petty in here, so I'm out with one final tidbidt of info for those who are legitimately curious about life span of these guns.

Scott called me back we actually had a conversation this time and he was apologetic. He suggested that instead of replacing the slide I replace the whole gun.

I ask him if he thought it was because the frame would make it unsafe to shoot.

He said no - but if I kept shooting it I should expect more failures.

So reading between the lines, yes there is an unwritten lifespan on the guns and whatever it is, it's short of 16,000 rounds. (Obviously my gun wasn't serviced on their maintenance cycles so maybe the number should be higher)

EDIT: He also said my concerns did not fall on deaf ears and he was looking in to the products life span, take it for what it's worth.

[SecondsCount]

I feel uneasy quoting TLG as I am surrounded by people that called him a friend, but shit dude, TLG had a programme to replace parts before they failed.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?975-Glock-Maintenance&p=15769&viewfull=1#post15769

In my case, where I brought up the M&P striker which is a small part, there was an obvious design flaw as Smith and Wesson has redesigned the part at least twice since that time to deal with the breakages. They also offer a lifetime warranty which covers the entire firearm, including the little parts like magazine releases and strikers. That being said, on many of my pistols including Kimber, Les Baer, and HK, I have broken springs and pins and have purchased, and replaced them myself, so I get that small parts break or wear thing.

Here, we aren't talking about a small part but a slide, which if it had been TLG testing the gun, would have brought the test to a halt if it had to be replaced. The FNS-9 would have gone down as only lasting 16,000 rounds, far short of the M&P, HK, Springfield, and Glock test models.

It would seem to me the FN may have a much bigger issue here or there was a manufacturing defect as the gun should have lasted much longer than it did. It is on them to do the right thing by the customer and after reading this, I have enough doubt that I would think twice before purchasing an FNS.

[JonInWA]

My understanding is that the acceptable forecastable lifespan for pistols competing for contracts in the contemporary LEO arena is at least 20K rounds, up to 40K depending upon platform and contract stipulations. Contractual warranty fulfillment is normally dependent upon the organization adhering to a schedule of maintenance and programmed component replacement(s) for the guns throughout their lifespan with the organization.

Best, Jon

[hiro]

Here, we aren't talking about a small part but a slide, which if it had been TLG testing the gun, would have brought the test to a halt if it had to be replaced. The FNS-9 would have gone down as only lasting 16,000 rounds, far short of the M&P, HK, Springfield, and Glock test models.

Respectfully, I think you need to reread the thread. As best we know from the thread, I haven't read FNs opinion on this, a spring failed that caused a part to wedge into the slide. The slide itself has not failed.

[Kirk]

Personally, I don't think we should judge the FNS-9Ls life span based on 1 failure from a firearm. None of us in our right mind would judge a Honda Civic's lifespan based on 1 driver who drove 65,000 miles and had an engine failure.

By all accounts, FN makes solid firearms and I'm sure if you took 100 of them and shot 16,000 rounds through them with proper maintenance, 96-98 of them would probably be fine at the end of the test. The problem occurs when the 2-4 guns that fail are summarily rejected for replacement by the factory, causing threads like this. Now we have an entire board questioning their durability.

[SecondsCount]

Respectfully, I think you need to reread the thread. As best we know from the thread, I haven't read FNs opinion on this, a spring failed that caused a part to wedge into the slide. The slide itself has not failed.

I get that but the reality is that the one issue rendered the gun permanently broken until the little part is extracted.

If Ssevens is at fault for not replacing the little part or spring that has fubar'd the slide because of a lack of maintenance then so be it but that isn't the issue here. When that little spring breaks it basically ruins the gun/slide.

[Luke]

Personally, I don't think we should judge the FNS-9Ls life span based on 1 failure from a firearm. None of us in our right mind would judge a Honda Civic's lifespan based on 1 driver who drove 65,000 miles and had an engine failure.

By all accounts, FN makes solid firearms and I'm sure if you took 100 of them and shot 16,000 rounds through them with proper maintenance, 96-98 of them would probably be fine at the end of the test. The problem occurs when the 2-4 guns that fail are summarily rejected for replacement by the factory, causing threads like this. Now we have an entire board questioning their durability.

I thought we were upset about the customer service?

[spinmove_]

I thought we were upset about the customer service?

That was the original purpose of the thread. We all know sometimes shit happens and stuff can break before it's supposed to. It's how FN handled the situation was what got Ssevenn riled up. I'd probably be a bit miffed too.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[hiro]

I get that but the reality is that the one issue rendered the gun permanently broken until the little part is extracted.

If Ssevens is at fault for not replacing the little part or spring that has fubar'd the slide because of a lack of maintenance then so be it but that isn't the issue here. When that little spring breaks it basically ruins the gun/slide.

But we still don't know the interval at which the part should have been replaced and as was mentioned early in the thread, we're unlikely to know. All FN say about regular maintenance is have it seen by a qualified armourer every year or 2000 rounds. The same kind of thing that every manufacturer says. 8 times more rounds thru the gun than the recommended service interval and something's broken that renders the gun unusable and we should be surprised?

If you don't want to go to the trouble of sending your gun to FN to service, and I wouldn't, you need to find out what needs replacing when or find someone that knows. To just keep shooting the gun till it breaks and then get upset that the manufacturer won't replace parts free of charge seems at best unreasonable.

[JonInWA]

And probably a proactive, amicable discussion with FN Tech support, along the lines of, "I'm a higher volume shooter to the tune of xx rounds per/session/match/month/year" would probably have resulted in some specific recommended component replacement intervals to the OP.....Not to do some basic research, and proceed to dump some 16K rounds through any platform, and expect everything to be peachy-keen seems a bit naive.
Best, Jon

[olstyn]

Not to do some basic research, and proceed to dump some 16K rounds through any platform, and expect everything to be peachy-keen seems a bit naive.

Perhaps, but when the manufacturer doesn't provide any information on recommended maintenance intervals beyond "send it back to us every 2K rounds," which sounds absurdly short, I feel like they haven't exactly done their part, either. That information should be in the manual and/or on their website. You shouldn't have to sweet talk the customer service line or become an armorer in order to find it.

[Jared]

Perhaps, but when the manufacturer doesn't provide any information on recommended maintenance intervals beyond "send it back to us every 2K rounds," which sounds absurdly short, I feel like they haven't exactly done their part, either. That information should be in the manual and/or on their website. You shouldn't have to sweet talk the customer service line or become an armorer in order to find it.

If FN made maintenance intervals for springs and small parts available, even if you had to call in and say, "hey, I'm a high volume USPSA shooter, I need to know how to maintain this thing" and then sold the spares it would be better. Wanting it sent in every 2000 rounds and not selling spare parts would put me off of the gun on the spot.

[GJM]

If FN made maintenance intervals for springs and small parts available, even if you had to call in and say, "hey, I'm a high volume USPSA shooter, I need to know how to maintain this thing" and then sold the spares it would be better. Wanting it sent in every 2000 rounds and not selling spare parts would put me off of the gun on the spot.

Only an FN can make a CZ seem durable.

[LockedBreech]

This is a surprisingly divisive topic. I no longer really have an opinion. I'm just kinda ping ponging back and forth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mark Housel]

This is a surprisingly divisive topic. I no longer really have an opinion. I'm just kinda ping ponging back and forth.

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCertainly seems to be.

Anyway...if this is accurate and the gun was still under warranty.

I jumped through FNH's website's hoops to get it returned for repair - gun is warrantied.
And the warranty was not voided by not replacing springs, parts etc. at some mandated intervals.

Then I'd say that FN should have warrantied the problem and I can see being pretty irritated at them telling me I had to buy a new slide.

The claim by FN that the slide is trashed since the firing pin block plunger is stuck seems like a pretty lame attempt by them to get the part removed to see if there was any actual damage to the slide.
How long could it possibly take to come up with a way to get that part out? Was it like welded in place?

Between a few good solid whacks against a wooden (or otherwise non-marring) bench top to allow inertia to do its thing, or even having to drill a hole in to where the spring is and hook something in there to pull it out?

Just how much work could this really entail by FN to keep what seems like a dedicated customer?
Of course I am biased and see this from the perspective of someone who has the tools to fix something like this reasonably easily. Who knows what resources FN has on tap, beyond a parts department and a few hand tools to actually fix anything?

[Jared]

This is a surprisingly divisive topic. I no longer really have an opinion. I'm just kinda ping ponging back and forth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure where to lay the blame either myself. I mean, OP didn't follow FN maintenance schedule recommendations, but the maintenance schedule FN lays out is silly, and the refusal to sell spare parts so that you can do your own PM is stupid. In my mind, parts should be available, and if you screw the pooch trying to DIY instead of having someone competent do it, then you get your warranty denied and foot the bill for the repairs.

OTOH, I think the OP should have done more due diligence on the matter beforehand​. If you're gonna be a high volume shooter, you should understand that things are going to wear/need replaced at regular intervals and the service life of springs and small parts should have been researched and a PM schedule followed.

[hufnagel]

Yea, I don't think Craftsman does that anymore. Used to be if you found a broken tool they'd replace it no questions asked. While it creates brand loyalty it doesn't seem like a sustainable business model.

If you make a tool that never (or almost never) breaks, then there's not a lot of replacement required. I've tons of Craftsman tools that are decades old, and only ever broken my 3/8" drive ratchet. That one tool gets a ton of use/abuse, so when it finally failed after 2.5 decades I wasn't too surprised. It's also the only tool of theirs I've had fail, despite my strenuous attempts otherwise. The replacement has broken twice in the past 5 years. They don't make 'em like they used to.

[pangloss]

I think the big lesson here is to never send a really dirty gun in for repair (or pictures of such) and don't volunteer how many rounds you've shot through it. Most people don't keep up with round count, so I figure the company is unlikely to ask. Spend a night scrubbing down the pistol, then call customer service and say "I love your pistols and I have six of them, but my very favorite one broke. Can you please help me?" Why give the company any reason to hassle you?

[John Hearne]

I need to dig it up but I have a return letter from Sig for one of my P220ST's I sent in. In all caps the tech had written "EXTENSIVE HOLSTER WEAR" like I had been abusing the gun and doing something wrong.

One of the more bizarre stories I've heard was a classic Sig that came to the armorer for erratic failures to fire. Apparently, the officer performed 100 dry fires every day without "protection." He had managed to egg out the sear pin hole to the point that ignition wasn't reliable when the tolerances stacked just right. This took years and years to accomplish. I was impressed with the officer's dedication.

[scjbash]

I think the big lesson here is to never send a really dirty gun in for repair (or pictures of such) and don't volunteer how many rounds you've shot through it. Most people don't keep up with round count, so I figure the company is unlikely to ask. Spend a night scrubbing down the pistol, then call customer service and say "I love your pistols and I have six of them, but my very favorite one broke. Can you please help me?" Why give the company any reason to hassle you?

This.

I'm not saying I think FN is in the right but when I saw the picture he sent them I cringed.

[GJM]

I need to dig it up but I have a return letter from Sig for one of my P220ST's I sent in. In all caps the tech had written "EXTENSIVE HOLSTER WEAR" like I had been abusing the gun and doing something wrong.

One of the more bizarre stories I've heard was a classic Sig that came to the armorer for erratic failures to fire. Apparently, the officer performed 100 dry fires every day without "protection." He had managed to egg out the sear pin hole to the point that ignition wasn't reliable when the tolerances stacked just right. This took years and years to accomplish. I was impressed with the officer's dedication.

When I returned a 226 for a defective action job, I received a letter from Sig saying that it appeared I was using hand loads. I was not, at that time, but really?

[olstyn]

I need to dig it up but I have a return letter from Sig for one of my P220ST's I sent in. In all caps the tech had written "EXTENSIVE HOLSTER WEAR" like I had been abusing the gun and doing something wrong.


When I returned a 226 for a defective action job, I received a letter from Sig saying that it appeared I was using hand loads. I was not, at that time, but really?

*snort*

Those are both hilarious. Thanks for sharing, guys. :)

[JAD]

Otoh, I sent my Range Officer to Springfield having blown a case through what had to be a double charged reload. It was jammed in battery with the case having welded itself to various parts of the breech/barrel interface. I had included a note that said, "I blew up my gun with a reload. Please quote repair or scrap if >$500." They sent me back an unfuckulated gun in a week, shipped free, with a note that said "don't shoot reloads." They did not add a frowny face, or the unspoken "if you're an idiot."

[VT1032]

I'm not sure where to lay the blame either myself. I mean, OP didn't follow FN maintenance schedule recommendations, but the maintenance schedule FN lays out is silly, and the refusal to sell spare parts so that you can do your own PM is stupid. In my mind, parts should be available, and if you screw the pooch trying to DIY instead of having someone competent do it, then you get your warranty denied and foot the bill for the repairs.

OTOH, I think the OP should have done more due diligence on the matter beforehand​. If you're gonna be a high volume shooter, you should understand that things are going to wear/need replaced at regular intervals and the service life of springs and small parts should have been researched and a PM schedule followed.

I get what you're saying, but if they offer a "lifetime" warranty, they ought to stand by that. Really, one slide isn't going to kill their bottom line, and if they went above and beyond to do the right thing, they would have likely earned his loyalty as a consumer. Instead they pissed all up in his cheerios, and you end up with this 22 page thread thrashing them on a site thats browsed by a whole bunch of serious shooters, many of whom probably won't be buying FN products any time soon now. Neither probably will hurt them in the long run, but I can say with certainty that this thread alone has cost them a helluva lot more money then that slide was worth. Stingy customer service costs money in the end.

[hiro]

an unfuckulated gun

That's the technical term, right?

=D

[JAD]

That's the technical term, right?

In my experience it's applications engineering specific.

[Jared]

I get what you're saying, but if they offer a "lifetime" warranty, they ought to stand by that. Really, one slide isn't going to kill their bottom line, and if they went above and beyond to do the right thing, they would have likely earned his loyalty as a consumer. Instead they pissed all up in his cheerios, and you end up with this 22 page thread thrashing them on a site thats browsed by a whole bunch of serious shooters, many of whom probably won't be buying FN products any time soon now. Neither probably will hurt them in the long run, but I can say with certainty that this thread alone has cost them a helluva lot more money then that slide was worth. Stingy customer service costs money in the end.

I agree with you, I really do. If they'd have just fixed the damn thing they'd have been better off and I seriously doubt either event will make a difference in their bottom line at all.

I was never gonna buy an FNS personally anyway. The way they introduce a new pistol that takes new mags with no backward compatibility put me off on FN's consumer handguns some time ago. I mean, look at HK. When the VP9 came out, it took P30 mags. They ain't cheap, but if a guy wants to upgrade to the new hotness, and he has a stash of say 10 mags, he ain't gotta go buy a whole new stash of expensive mags. I think the Smith and Wesson Gen 2 and Gen 3 autos also shared mags. That's smart. What FN did with the FNP and the FNX and FNS mag thing was very confusing and I don't understand the reasoning.

[1slow]

Any interest I had in an FN pistol is GONE !

IMHO, the customer could have been a little more diplomatic. That does not alter that having to send in a gun every 2000 rounds is unworkable for me. A service life of 16,000 rounds means every 16 months I would need a new one. I find this repugnant.

I have Glocks and HKs, that are much less delicate. One GL30 that went Kaboom (my fault). I told them it was my fault and Glock replaced everything but the slide for $140 or so. Slide was the only part undamaged. In 23 years/200,000 rounds of carrying and shooting Glocks I had very little trouble. Probably did not spend $100 on parts other than the kaboom.

Currently I am using HK P30 LEM 9mm and USP, USPT 45s, they do not seem delicate. I looked at Todd's tests on P30s, HK45 etc... then later I looked at USP 45s. GJM and Darryl were my inspiration on USP45s and by all accounts the USP 45s are durable.

I used to carry, shoot and maintain 1911s 1973-1990 and shot Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson 45s up until a few years ago, so I get that parts need replacing etc....

At this point I want a reliable durable service auto.

[VT1032]

I agree with you, I really do. If they'd have just fixed the damn thing they'd have been better off and I seriously doubt either event will make a difference in their bottom line at all.

I was never gonna buy an FNS personally anyway. The way they introduce a new pistol that takes new mags with no backward compatibility put me off on FN's consumer handguns some time ago. I mean, look at HK. When the VP9 came out, it took P30 mags. They ain't cheap, but if a guy wants to upgrade to the new hotness, and he has a stash of say 10 mags, he ain't gotta go buy a whole new stash of expensive mags. I think the Smith and Wesson Gen 2 and Gen 3 autos also shared mags. That's smart. What FN did with the FNP and the FNX and FNS mag thing was very confusing and I don't understand the reasoning.

Well, that's the other thing that really irks me about their response. We aren't talking about a Glock, or HK or other really established pistol line here. I know FN is a very established manufacturer with some great guns, particularly of the belt fed variety, but the FNP/FNX/FNS line is really struggling to gain a foothold in an already saturated market. They have no room to be burning people's asses, but thus far, what I've seen from them is that they really don't seem to care. It's evident in the design, as you mention, and it's evident in the customer service, and in the marketing. Glock, Sig or S&W practically (well, in the case of Glock, litterally) offer free lap dances to get their guns into LE holsters, but I don't really see that urgency with FN. It's not that it's a bad gun, there just doesn't seem to be an effort there to make is sucessful. They seem like a company that's very content in their military contracts, and that's all well and good until the gubmint teat run dry (see Colt, right about now).

[SsevenN]

IMHO, the customer could have been a little more diplomatic.

Sorry I said I was done adding posts to this thread but I need to clarify. Because I am not being explicit enough, clearly.

My exasperation, frustration and rage expressed in this thread is in no way indicative of my communicative conversation with FNH - I felt I was very explicit in articulating the tone I used, I was a little high pitched in voice and I dropped a "fucking" in once during an almost 15 minute long argument where I was articulating simple concepts and being met with flat out stonewalling- I do that when my mind is racing (say fuck) it's like an "um" from other folks, and I type like I think, hence all the fucks while I was furious within that first day. (I actively worked on maintaining a reasoned verbiage on the phone is the point, for those who need it broken down to banal sentences)

I specifically made this thread to vent and ask opinions, somehow this venting here was contrived into "He spoke to FNH employees with the attitude displayed here"

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I deal with CS as part of my job, I understand exactly what is involved and I know the types of people I like to deal with.

I tried to be that person, they were not in the mood, I got an initial terse and non-explanatory response from someone lower on the totem pole, and then when called back I was engaged in a confrontation, I'm completely right in being upset about this.

(This is not directed at you) But it seems that even in the pistol related forum of the highest quality, reading comprehension is an underdeveloped skill and facile reasoning is often employed to facilitate an agenda rather than address the issue.

[LockedBreech]

If you make a tool that never (or almost never) breaks, then there's not a lot of replacement required. I've tons of Craftsman tools that are decades old, and only ever broken my 3/8" drive ratchet. That one tool gets a ton of use/abuse, so when it finally failed after 2.5 decades I wasn't too surprised. It's also the only tool of theirs I've had fail, despite my strenuous attempts otherwise. The replacement has broken twice in the past 5 years. They don't make 'em like they used to.

Craftsman really did change. This is absolutely true (as far as you can believe anything online): I snapped the tip off two Craftsman screwdrivers, one right after the other, trying to change the grip screws on a 1978 Beretta 92S.

Those ain't the same screwdrivers my dad has in his toolbox.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Cid]

(This is not directed at you) But it seems that even in the pistol related forum of the highest quality, reading comprehension is an underdeveloped skill and facile reasoning is often employed to facilitate an agenda rather than address the issue.

Sheesh... if you're going to insult us all, at least use words we can "comprehend." ;)

[LockedBreech]

Thread gonna go big sad :(


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[SsevenN]

I guess I'm just doomed to offend in type, I can promise with (vocal) inflection I'm quite amicable.

[1slow]

SsevenN, I do not fault you at all and am sorry to give offense. I would have been really pissed at FN. Could you have been more diplomatic, yes. That does not alter that I believe you to be correct your dissatisfaction with FN.

Personally after that experience, even if they gave me a new pistol, I would would sell ot of them and get something that lasts better. Assuming it was financially doable.

[hufnagel]

One of the questions most places HATE, that I love to ask when they quote "lifetime warranty!", is "who's lifetime? mine? or the company's?" The reaction has been known to dictate my procurement policies.

[Mark Housel]

One of the questions most places HATE, that I love to ask when they quote "lifetime warranty!", is "who's lifetime? mine? or the company's?" The reaction has been known to dictate my procurement policies.
Seems in this case it's the "lifetime" of the firearm. "Oh, it died? Well then, the warranty has expired." :rolleyes:

[Aray]

I had an experience that was less bad than the OP's and still swore off of and no longer recommend that manufacturer. OP has every right to be pissed IMHO.

[JonInWA]

Sorry I said I was done adding posts to this thread but I need to clarify. Because I am not being explicit enough, clearly.

My exasperation, frustration and rage expressed in this thread is in no way indicative of my communicative conversation with FNH - I felt I was very explicit in articulating the tone I used, I was a little high pitched in voice and I dropped a "fucking" in once during an almost 15 minute long argument where I was articulating simple concepts and being met with flat out stonewalling- I do that when my mind is racing (say fuck) it's like an "um" from other folks, and I type like I think, hence all the fucks while I was furious within that first day. (I actively worked on maintaining a reasoned verbiage on the phone is the point, for those who need it broken down to banal sentences)

I specifically made this thread to vent and ask opinions, somehow this venting here was contrived into "He spoke to FNH employees with the attitude displayed here"

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I deal with CS as part of my job, I understand exactly what is involved and I know the types of people I like to deal with.

I tried to be that person, they were not in the mood, I got an initial terse and non-explanatory response from someone lower on the totem pole, and then when called back I was engaged in a confrontation, I'm completely right in being upset about this.

(This is not directed at you) But it seems that even in the pistol related forum of the highest quality, reading comprehension is an underdeveloped skill and facile reasoning is often employed to facilitate an agenda rather than address the issue.

And with this, I think I'm out of here.

Best, Jon

[stevewonderful]

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