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EmanP
12-14-2011, 03:39 PM
Not too long ago they show cased Vogel, their World Champion, on a video shooting a stage. In my opinion, he was round dumping by shooting an extra round into the last target. IDPA came back and said that it was a mover which made it legal followed by all the other IDPA fan boys clainmng an insurance shot on that 'difficult' target. Whatever. Now, they show case yet another stage with him firing a 3rd round on the last target again. It was a mover again, but this time we have two targets moving forward and he chose to engage the last one of the two gaining him the faster reload. Really IDPA, if you are going to show case your star shooter, your champion, don't do it showing him breaking your own rules which would earn you the coveted Failure To Do Right 20 second penalty. His second one at the World Championship which would undoubtedly not earn him the title. I have now officially lost all hope for IDPA.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-McLWcQuSE&sns=em

ToddG
12-14-2011, 03:50 PM
I see it the exact opposite. Here are two great examples of why the rule is inherently flawed. There is nothing in the rulebook about "insurance shots" or any other such nonsense.

Nor am I calling out Vogel. I've taken those exact same shots at plenty of major IDPA matches. Only a liar would say the decision to make such extra shots was made regardless of the reload. How many pre-planned extra shots get made on stages requiring less than a full mag to complete? Just about zero.

In a misguided attempt to prevent gaming, IDPA has simply created its own more complicated, more subjective, more unenforceable rule.

It's an easy fix, IDPA. And it's long overdue.

KeeFus
12-14-2011, 04:00 PM
It's an easy fix, IDPA. And it's long overdue.

A-Freaking-men!!!

LOKNLOD
12-14-2011, 06:10 PM
If you're going to make something into a game, don't be upset when people play it. :/

VolGrad
12-14-2011, 06:32 PM
If you're going to make something into a game, don't be upset when people play it. :/
THIS.

Take it for what it is. It's a game. No one can say for sure what a shooter's intention is with extra shots. Hell, I take them all the time .... but mine are usually because my bad eyes couldn't tell if I had good hits or more likely because I can't remember if the stage called for 2 or 3. :D

MikeyC
12-14-2011, 07:21 PM
I take extra shots myself if I'm not sure. The extra second or so it take for an additional shot beats the heck out of a down 3 or miss.

DonovanM
12-14-2011, 07:47 PM
I don't know what's funnier, the rule itself, or the fact that Vogel took extra shots for better reloads when he had zero competition. Why bother? I'm not making claims as to his character, but I wonder if he was trying to make a statement...

JHC
12-14-2011, 08:00 PM
THIS.

Take it for what it is. It's a game. No one can say for sure what a shooter's intention is with extra shots. Hell, I take them all the time .... but mine are usually because my bad eyes couldn't tell if I had good hits or more likely because I can't remember if the stage called for 2 or 3. :D

I overshoot something in most matches. Mostly because once I start shooting something, I don't like to stop. I think its a lizard brain thing. Definitely not strategy. lol I have no strategy but to shoot to empty, reload, repeat. lol

jlw
12-14-2011, 08:03 PM
If you're going to make something into a game, don't be upset when people play it. :/

Yup.

ToddG
12-14-2011, 08:47 PM
If you're going to make something into a game, don't be upset when people play it. :/

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9jZt7AFgxBk/TkUfL12P5XI/AAAAAAAAAnM/NyZHqKTngDo/s1600/guinness-brilliant.jpg

Slavex
12-15-2011, 02:43 AM
when did they load him?
Does it count as gaming to shoot the steel twice?

da6dspanburg
12-15-2011, 06:49 AM
I take extra shots myself if I'm not sure. The extra second or so it take for an additional shot beats the heck out of a down 3 or miss.

Same here. When I was shooting IDPA several times a month, I was always taking extra shots at targets. Sometimes it worked out that I could do a slide lock reload at a good point and at other times I ended up doing a reload at a not-so-good point.

ToddG
12-15-2011, 07:03 AM
Sometimes it worked out that I could do a slide lock reload at a good point and at other times I ended up doing a reload at a not-so-good point.

That's because you're about the farthest thing from a gamer anyone has ever met, my friend. But with the wrong RO, one of those propitious extra shots could have earned you a 20s penalty.

jlw
12-15-2011, 07:55 AM
I guess I don't game the games enough. I absolutely can't stand to drop a point and will sacrifice either the time to make a solid -0 shot, or I'll put an extra shot on a target to put one in the -0 even when I know leaving that -1 and moving on would be less time on the whole.

NickA
12-15-2011, 09:29 AM
What's really embarrassing is TRYING to round dump to slide lock, losing count, riding the slide release so the slide stays closed, then doing a RWR and somehow trying to reload the empty mag you just pulled out. Not that there's actual video of me doing that or anything.
I'd look for it to get a serious going over by the Tiger Team and probably be removed. IMO it makes the sport look kind of goofy to have such an unenforceable rule.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

JM Campbell
12-15-2011, 10:26 AM
Lol you sure that wasn't me Nick?

NickA
12-15-2011, 10:37 AM
Lol you sure that wasn't me Nick?

I was just demonstrating how NOT to do it, to help you get started out right;) what can I say, I'm a giver.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

markp
12-15-2011, 11:02 AM
I made the suggestion over on the idpaforum to count all rds on target(s) and do away with the round dumping call
(in a vickers count stage).

It did not go over well...


until that day
Mark

ToddG
12-15-2011, 11:22 AM
I'm baffled why anyone would -- or could -- support the round dumping penalty. It makes no sense in terms of objective refereeing of the sport. It makes no sense in terms of fairness. It makes no sense in terms of tactics.

It amazes me that a rule designed to prevent you from getting a benefit by counting your rounds basically requires you to count your rounds or else risk a huge penalty if the stars align wrong and you get the wrong RO on the wrong stage.

jetfire
12-15-2011, 12:59 PM
Like Todd said on his blog today, the problem with round dumping is that it requires the SO to read my mind.

PPGMD
12-15-2011, 04:47 PM
My name is PPGMD, and I am a round dumper.

About 50% of the stages in a match I dump a round, the other 50% I take an extra shot because I didn't feel right when the shot broke.

I would bet that when I can start running again I would likely get a FTDR at some point because I rarely miss, but they don't give me one because I can't move fast enough to be competitive at the moment.

theblacknight
12-15-2011, 05:20 PM
when did they load him?
Does it count as gaming to shoot the steel twice?

No, most times only shooting steel once will have you waiting on any activated movers depending on the array.

If I dump, I try to do it first target or array.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

JHC
12-15-2011, 05:44 PM
Reminds me of my IPSC days in the early '80's when I could not deal with "timed fire" stages. I just shot them all as fast as I thought I could; always faster than the time allowed. It's a game but I played it for training purposes. Same with the IDPA matches I've shot and our local unsanctioned action pistol matches. Just shoot it as "tactically" as you can figure out how to and be done with it.

da6dspanburg
12-16-2011, 06:49 AM
That's because you're about the farthest thing from a gamer anyone has ever met, my friend.

That is one of the best compliments I've received. Thanks!

da6d

NEPAKevin
12-17-2011, 01:32 PM
I'm baffled why anyone would -- or could -- support the round dumping penalty. It makes no sense in terms of objective refereeing of the sport. It makes no sense in terms of fairness. It makes no sense in terms of tactics.

I heard that there was strong support during the last revision of the rule book to eliminate round dumping as a criteria for the FTDR, for all the reasons stated.
Then someone remarked "You know, (ToddG) really hates that rule. Can't we keep it?! "
And that's why IDPA still has the round dumping rule.
:)

ToddG
12-17-2011, 04:40 PM
Then someone remarked "You know, (ToddG) really hates that rule. Can't we keep it?! "
And that's why IDPA still has the round dumping rule.

I believe it.

peteral
12-30-2011, 07:03 AM
Round dumping is impossible to call
I have been an SO since 2001 here in RSA and have had someof the top
SA shooters on my range Including some of the top IPSC guys shooting
our discipline.
How can you tell a shooter that he can't fire an extra shot if he is not sure
I am a "distinguished senior" and can't see the target never mind the holes.
Hopefully Idpa will sort this out in the current review
Lol