Flinch? Or compensating/anticipating recoil? I really would appreciate some advice.

[SC_Dave]

I'm not sure which to call it or maybe it's all the same thing IDK.

I had my son load 4 15 round mags. I asked him to put 2-4 snap caps in each. The result was stark. I wanted to video it but my DA forgot to bring the tripod. But suffice it to say the flinch was very noticeable on 9 of the 10 snap caps. 1 wasn't so bad. I have dry fired at night till my hands are sore. I'm as smooth as can be dry firing witnessed by the red dot on my RMR. So why doesn't this translate to live fire?

To my point. What do I do about it? I have read about and tried 10 different things but obviously it has not helped. I would really appreciate some input.

Thanks in advance for trying to help me.
SCD

[Luke]

for me, it depends on what kind of shooting I'm doing. Uspsa head shot at 25 yards, shouldn't see any movement when I hit a snap cap.

10 yard hoser target in gonna try and blast quickly, you'll probably see me almost throw the gun forward if it doesn't go bang on the second shot.


This is a good drill for finding out why you can't accomplish the first scenario, not the second. What kind of issues are you having.

[Gio]

I just posted this in another thread:


Grip force and follow through are everything when it comes to resetting the sights and gun back to where it was before the shot broke. If I stick a dummy round randomly in a magazine and run bill drills or some other kind of speed drill like this, you will see a massive push forward and down that would look like a flinch, but it's actually a post-ignition push to counter recoil. I've found this is something shooters develop subconsciously over time. As a side note, this is one reason ball and dummy drills are more of a new/struggling shooter drill and don't help advanced shooters. In fact, instructors that aren't familiar with the post ignition push can mis-diagnose advanced shooters as having a flinch.

The way to tell if it's post ignition push vs. a flinch is to see where the rounds are going. Shoot at a small target at about 5-7 yards like a 2" dot. If you are hitting the dot consistently, you're not flinching.

Contrary to what Luke recommended above, there shouldn't be a difference in how you recover from recoil on a 25 yd head shot vs. a 3 yd hoser target for any kind of action shooting. You should be fighting to get your sight picture reset as fast as possible in either scenario.

Now, if you are shooting a bullseye course, where you have basically unlimited time to shoot 10 rounds and you are going to only fire one shot and then rest or return to the holster before the next shot, you should be much more relaxed and focus on a smooth/constant trigger press and just let the gun recoil without trying to chase it or force it back down.

[Luke]

Gio I agree, that was more of a slow fire bulls eye type shooting, not during a match. Should have used your analogy but bullseye shooting is so lame I try not to even type it :p


But in a match context there still will be a different amount of force used for 2 25 yard head shots and a quick hose with .11 split

[SC_Dave]

for me, it depends on what kind of shooting I'm doing. Uspsa head shot at 25 yards, shouldn't see any movement when I hit a snap cap.

10 yard hoser target in gonna try and blast quickly, you'll probably see me almost throw the gun forward if it doesn't go bang on the second shot.


This is a good drill for finding out why you can't accomplish the first scenario, not the second. What kind of issues are you having.


I just posted this in another thread:



The way to tell if it's post ignition push vs. a flinch is to see where the rounds are going. Shoot at a small target at about 5-7 yards like a 2" dot. If you are hitting the dot consistently, you're not flinching.

Contrary to what Luke recommended above, there shouldn't be a difference in how you recover from recoil on a 25 yd head shot vs. a 3 yd hoser target for any kind of action shooting. You should be fighting to get your sight picture reset as fast as possible in either scenario.

Now, if you are shooting a bullseye course, where you have basically unlimited time to shoot 10 rounds and you are going to only fire one shot and then rest or return to the holster before the next shot, you should be much more relaxed and focus on a smooth/constant trigger press and just let the gun recoil without trying to chase it or force it back down.

Thanks guys. A little more info. Their are so many things that transfer from competition shooting to self protection (some say tactical but I have grown to hate that word) and vice-versa.
I don't shoot competition but I have not ruled it out at a local novice level in the future. So most of my shooting is practice for self protection that I hope is never needed.

From 7 yards in as you know is very forgiving of movement. In fact IMO 5 yards and in sights aren't really necessary to hit center mass though their are exceptions. When I noticed my downward dip of the pistol when breaking the trigger on a snap cap was the scenario Gio mentioned in his last paragraph. I was shooting a B8 at 15 yds.

Edit: for additional info. This is going to sound like I am experienced, I am not so take it for diagnostic info. I have been shooting off and on since my teens, I'm 61. I have gotten more serious in the past year or so. Also I'm shooting at an indoor range, it's all I have right now. Knowing that it's louder indoors I tried doubling up my ear pro. Plugs under muffs thinking the noise level was causing some of this. Didn't hurt but I can't tell it helped either.

Holes on the left most side are from ripping the B8 out of a notebook.

[Mitch]

Are you right handed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SC_Dave]

Are you right handed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes I am.

[Mitch]

Without seeing you shoot it's impossible to tell, but it's possible rather than flinching you could be snatching the trigger.

Try this. Shoot at the same distance with only two goals, a smooth trigger press and sight alignment. The front sight should not move relative to the rear. It's going to wobble inside the bullseye, but that's fine. Don't try to time your trigger press with the front sight crossing the bullseye. As long as the front and rear sight are lined up, pointing in the black, and you have a smooth trigger press you'll get a good hit. But if your front sight starts moving relative to the rear sight your misses will be more dramatic.

EDIT: Just saw you're using an RMR. I've never shot with one of those. You can try the above with a iron sighted pistol, or with an RMR with the big disclaimer that I've never shot one and don't know you or your experience. Basically don't try to time the bullseye, accept some wobble inside the black.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnO]

I'm going to offer a few videos that you should watch. You should be able to get some helpful info from these that will help you better understand what you are doing.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

Pay attention to Mike's explanation of a flinch being a timing issue in the 2nd part.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aINiaGKj6A&t=22s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dov5sq7wR-U&t=207s

[BJXDS]

There have been some very good replies. I think you need to find what you are really doing i.e. Bad trigger pull or anticipating/clinching. TRIGGER PULL IS EVERYTHING! If you are flinching and I still do it sometimes especially when shooting 44 mag even though I hate to admit it.

Drill are helpful but I think you have to shoot your way out of it

[nwhpfan]

Ball and Dummy drills are good to tell you that you flinch but not the way to stop doing it.

Once you know you flinch now you have to take focus away from "noise, sound, flash, recoil" and direct that attention to the positive. Aiming correctly and pulling the trigger correctly; controlling the lift, bringing the sights back to target, then "sending" the sights back up as you shoot again.

This is mental. Let recoil flash noise happen; control it - you make it happen; focus on the sights, your trigger, your grip...

[Peally]

In short, practice even more. Dry fire at the range between live fire, dry fire at home, etc. Eventually you'll start tuning out the 'splosions and focus on the fundamentals.

[SLG]

Ball and dummy wont fix it and for most people, neither will dry fire till the cows come home. Dummy and ball will fix it, and Ive written that out before, so maybe a search will prove fruitful, idk. Or, see LAV, as he is where I learned it some 13 years ago.

[JohnO]

Ball and dummy wont fix it and for most people, neither will dry fire till the cows come home. Dummy and ball will fix it, and Ive written that out before, so maybe a search will prove fruitful, idk. Or, see LAV, as he is where I learned it some 13 years ago.

Larry Vickers runs a great drill in his class where you work with a partner. Your partner sets the gun up and you don't know if you have a live or empty chamber. If you flinch you are required to do 10 perfect dry fires. Larry ups the difficulty with a timer beep and the requirement to break the shot during the beep. Another drill with a partner LAV runs is the empty case on your front sight. Dry fire at your pace and then dry fire on command. Really good drills to help those afflicted with El Scatcho syndrome.

[SLG]

Larry Vickers runs a great drill in his class where you work with a partner. Your partner sets the gun up and you don't know if you have a live or empty chamber. If you flinch you are required to do 10 perfect dry fires. Larry ups the difficulty with a timer beep and the requirement to break the shot during the beep. Another drill with a partner LAV runs is the empty case on your front sight. Dry fire at your pace and then dry fire on command. Really good drills to help those afflicted with El Scatcho syndrome.

Thats it.

[Gio]

Gio I agree, that was more of a slow fire bulls eye type shooting, not during a match. Should have used your analogy but bullseye shooting is so lame I try not to even type it :p


But in a match context there still will be a different amount of force used for 2 25 yard head shots and a quick hose with .11 split

I agree with you for the most part, however, I still disagree with the part in bold. In any kind of action pistol shooting (competitive match or defensive shooting), there should not be a difference in how you fight recoil between 25 yd head shots and quick hoser shots. The only difference should be in how fast you press the trigger and how much you need to see on your sights before shooting.

[Peally]

That Larry drill seems almost identical to a ball and dummy drill and dry fire, only you don't know when the dummy rounds will happen. I solve that by loading 5 magazines with very little attention paid to what I'm loading in what ;)

[Peally]

I agree with you for the most part, however, I still disagree with the part in bold. In any kind of action pistol shooting (competitive match or defensive shooting), there should not be a difference in how you fight recoil between 25 yd head shots and quick hoser shots. The only difference should be in how fast you press the trigger and how much you need to see on your sights before shooting.

I certainly loosen my trigger hand when shooting at in-your-face distances.

[JohnO]

That Larry drill seems almost identical to a ball and dummy drill and dry fire, only you don't know when the dummy rounds will happen. I solve that by loading 5 magazines with very little attention paid to what I'm loading in what ;)

Yes you can do that. However the drill really changes (increased difficulty level) when you are required to break the shot on Larry's command.

Another variation of the case on the front sight it trigger finger starting position. On the trigger is the easiest. Trigger finger along the side of the frame in the "register" position as Hackathorn calls it is a lot more difficult.

[Clusterfrack]

So does Ben Stoeger, so you're in good company

[JohnO]

I certainly loosen my trigger hand when shooting at in-your-face distances.

The rational there escapes me. I have one grip and one grip only.

[Mr_White]

I think the observation that people do different things with their grip depending on the shot difficulty is more about 'something that people do' as opposed to 'how it should ideally be if they were perfect or at least a lot better.' That's always been my impression of those kind of observations.

[Luke]

I agree with you for the most part, however, I still disagree with the part in bold. In any kind of action pistol shooting (competitive match or defensive shooting), there should not be a difference in how you fight recoil between 25 yd head shots and quick hoser shots. The only difference should be in how fast you press the trigger and how much you need to see on your sights before shooting.

I disagree, but that's ok :) we are still Internet friends

[SLG]

I agree with you for the most part, however, I still disagree with the part in bold. In any kind of action pistol shooting (competitive match or defensive shooting), there should not be a difference in how you fight recoil between 25 yd head shots and quick hoser shots. The only difference should be in how fast you press the trigger and how much you need to see on your sights before shooting.

Maybe that's why Gio is a GM?

[Peally]

The rational there escapes me. I have one grip and one grip only.

Standard crush grip doesn't cut it on a 3 yard bill drill I'm trying to burn down. Finger can't actuate quickly enough when the hand muscles are all tensed up. My grip also loosens up during things like reloads where quick and smooth movement is desired.

From a competitive drill standpoint at least. YMMV but I think that's very typical of many shooters. If I could be as limber with a Vader choke I'd go that route obviously, but I don't have ahnuld hands that can be at full exertion all day.

[cheshire_cat]

In dry fire make sure you are pressing the trigger hard. For me, recoil anticipation is the cause and trigger jerk is the symptom. The Vickers partner drill seems like it would be a good one, at speed that is. Especially the part about the 10 dry fire reps if you flinch. The Frank Garcia dot drill is a good drill - 2" dot at 7 yards, 6 shots in 5 seconds. It is not either/or with Flinch and trigger jerk/low left. They are connected. That you are not seeing the dot go low left in dry fire, but you are in live fire, indicates recoil anticipation due to the noise/recoil/blast. Focus on isolating your trigger finger and pressing hard in dry fire. But like some have said, you have to somewhat shoot out of it, but you have to make sure you are mentally working on it at the range. Just throwing lead downrange in large amounts won't work.

[Clusterfrack]

Peally's explanation mirrors my experience. Also, when I'm at full crush, I feel like my upper body isn't as mobile, probably because of added grip pressure from outward rotation of elbows (Vogel method). For a classifier like CM06-03 Can You Count, you've got to have a super fast draw (less time to form a crush grip), ripping fast splits, 1s reload, and a fast, fairly wide transition. My hands feel much more relaxed than on 25+ yd standards type shooting.

[Luke]

Maybe that's why Gio is a GM?


Is he? Not that it matters. Just curious

[SLG]

removed, waste of time.

[Luke]

removed, waste of time.

I'm guessing this was a reply meant for me? I wasn't being a troll or trying to start anything. Genuinely curious. There are a bunch of shooters on here and a uspsa classification is one way to tell how skilled a person is. How skilled they are also doesn't correlate to how much knowledge they have about actually shooting (to a point I guess?).

Him being a GM doesn't change anything for me, lots of GM's share different opinions about things. Once again, just curious, I like GM's and want to be one one day.

Ive learned stuff from D class and GM class.

[SLG]

I'm guessing this was a reply meant for me? I wasn't being a troll or trying to start anything. Genuinely curious. There are a bunch of shooters on here and a uspsa classification is one way to tell how skilled a person is. How skilled they are also doesn't correlate to how much knowledge they have about actually shooting (to a point I guess?).

Him being a GM doesn't change anything for me, lots of GM's share different opinions about things. Once again, just curious, I like GM's and want to be one one day.

Ive learned stuff from D class and GM class.

It wasn't directed at you, I just needed to fill space when I removed my comment. It was directed at me.

[Gio]

I disagree, but that's ok :) we are still Internet friends

If you are relaxing your grip for distant shots, how are you able to shoot A's at a competitive speed at 25-35+ yd targets?

[Clusterfrack]

If you are relaxing your grip for distant shots, how are you able to shoot A's at a competitive speed at 25-35+ yd targets?

I think he's using a firmer grip at 25+ yds than he does for closer targets?

[MGW]

I found some real useful stuff in the videos posted above. The timing issue makes a lot of sense to me and I'm going to work on that and see what happens.

I think at some point trying to fix a flinch can make it worse. Something like the yips in golf. Case in point, I've worked so hard at not anticipating the shot and pushing it low that I've actually started flinching shots high. I think to much ball and dummy in its many variations has hurt me a little bit.

Related I think a lot of pushed or pulled shots, especially when we are talking about shooting fast, are because of bad grips. If I get a bad grip on the pistol, any change in grip pressure moves the front sight to the left or right. If I take the time to get a correct grip changing grip pressure won't move the sights at all or at least very little. I tend to over grip the pistol and get to much of the heal of my hand on the grip. This really makes the sights pull left if I grip to hard with my strong hand.

[Luke]

If you are relaxing your grip for distant shots, how are you able to shoot A's at a competitive speed at 25-35+ yd targets?


The firmness of my grip is not what dictates the return of the pistol back on target. (To an extent)

Competitive speed for a 35+ yard target is pretty slow.

What is different for a long shot vs hoser shot is how much I muscle the gun back onto target.

[Clusterfrack]

Luke--so you're actually gripping less on the far shots?

[Luke]

Luke--so you're actually gripping less on the far shots?

No, if I were to have a scale in between my hands it would read the same for every shot.

I just shot a match with 25 yard targets and hoser targets, I went to make a video showing you the difference but it can't really be seen on the video which has lead me to one of two conclusions:

1. It's so tiny it's hard to pick up on full speed on video.

2. It's all in my head.

I plan to experiment with this and see which one in is.

I *beleive* Les Pepperoni is the same way (long shots don't get as much recoil control as close).

[Gio]

The bottom line on recoil control is if you want to maximize your performance, you should be gripping as hard as you can (without losing dexterity in your trigger finger) on every shot regardless of difficulty or distance. Most beginner to intermediate shooters tend to fall into the trap of relaxing their grip for harder targets which causes them to be more prone to unlocking their wrists before the shot breaks (resulting in a complete miss) or having much slower follow up shots. The performance gap between a solid GM shooter and an avg A-C class shooter is generally much wider on lower probability targets than on close up hoser targets.

[YVK]

No, if I were to have a scale in between my hands it would read the same for every shot.

I just shot a match with 25 yard targets and hoser targets, I went to make a video showing you the difference but it can't really be seen on the video which has lead me to one of two conclusions:

1. It's so tiny it's hard to pick up on full speed on video.

2. It's all in my head.

I plan to experiment with this and see which one in is.

I *beleive* Les Pepperoni is the same way (long shots don't get as much recoil control as close).


We find ourselves in situations when several hoser and several hard targets have to be shot from the same positions all the time. Last stage of my last match had two hosers that you had to run up to (hidden behind a barricade) and then transition to a two mini-poppers way out there. I can't even imagine being able to think of relaxing my grip while transitioning for those two shots.
Lately I have questioned relaxing my grip even for a bullseye speed shooting. I get a better, smoother trigger finger work that way, but I don't want to lose a counteractive benefit of a strong support hand grip on any trigger control imperfections. I've found no difference in my long distance groups either way. One grip effort for everything for me, life is easier that way.

Proudly, a B class shooter.

[Peally]

I think we've thoroughly confused the shit out of the OP now ;)

[Luke]

I think we've thoroughly confused the shit out of the OP now ;)

I concur.


I can't put it into words, or make it make sense when I think about it, but I don't grip the gun any looser when making hard shots, but I don't control the recoil as much. I stay loose without being loose. Idk man, can't put it into words.

Gio is a production GM. I Internet stalked him.

[Clusterfrack]

No, if I were to have a scale in between my hands it would read the same for every shot.

I just shot a match with 25 yard targets and hoser targets, I went to make a video showing you the difference but it can't really be seen on the video which has lead me to one of two conclusions:

1. It's so tiny it's hard to pick up on full speed on video.

2. It's all in my head.

I plan to experiment with this and see which one in is.

I *beleive* Les Pepperoni is the same way (long shots don't get as much recoil control as close).

Grip also protects sight alignment against disturbance from the trigger press, which is why some people grip harder on far/precise targets.

[Joe in PNG]

Last summer, I noticed a weird little mindset difference thing between dryfire at home, and shooting at the range. At the range, I would somehow "know" that the gun was going to go bang, and I would flinch pretty hardcore. As recommended above, a string of dryfire down the range at the target helped a lot in ironing that out.

[Sal Picante]

I *beleive* Les Pepperoni is the same way (long shots don't get as much recoil control as close).

DAFUQ I get looped into this thread? ;)

I grip hard every shot, specifically with my left hand. It grips so hard the skin on my RH knuckles is rough...

Long shots get just as much recoil control as close shots. People lose big on being able to hammer out Alphas and transition smoothly on distance targets.

[Sal Picante]

I'm not sure which to call it or maybe it's all the same thing IDK.

I had my son load 4 15 round mags. I asked him to put 2-4 snap caps in each. The result was stark. I wanted to video it but my DA forgot to bring the tripod. But suffice it to say the flinch was very noticeable on 9 of the 10 snap caps. 1 wasn't so bad. I have dry fired at night till my hands are sore. I'm as smooth as can be dry firing witnessed by the red dot on my RMR. So why doesn't this translate to live fire?

To my point. What do I do about it? I have read about and tried 10 different things but obviously it has not helped. I would really appreciate some input.

Thanks in advance for trying to help me.
SCD

To the OP: Do you push/flinch/whatever with a .22?

[SC_Dave]

To the OP: Do you push/flinch/whatever with a .22?

Look below please, I decided to do a multi-quote.

[Gio]

We find ourselves in situations when several hoser and several hard targets have to be shot from the same positions all the time. Last stage of my last match had two hosers that you had to run up to (hidden behind a barricade) and then transition to a two mini-poppers way out there. I can't even imagine being able to think of relaxing my grip while transitioning for those two shots.
Lately I have questioned relaxing my grip even for a bullseye speed shooting. I get a better, smoother trigger finger work that way, but I don't want to lose a counteractive benefit of a strong support hand grip on any trigger control imperfections. I've found no difference in my long distance groups either way. One grip effort for everything for me, life is easier that way.

Proudly, a B class shooter.

I am by no means a bullseye expert, but I also go 100% on grip force on the rapid fire portion of a bullseye course.

[SC_Dave]

Pay attention to Mike's explanation of a flinch being a timing issue in the 2nd part.

At 8:00 in the second video, would that more so apply to a fast string?


I think at some point trying to fix a flinch can make it worse. Something like the yips in golf.

Exactly the way it is with me right now.. I didn't do this before?????


I think we've thoroughly confused the shit out of the OP now ;)

Yes. At least somewhat. I have no instructors or good shooters near me that I can consult that I know of so I am trying diligently to fix this myself. I have picked up some good info here and I'm going to apply it. I like hanging around with people I can learn from even if it's on the internet. It's hard to fix it when you can't see it first hand.


Last summer, I noticed a weird little mindset difference thing between dryfire at home, and shooting at the range. At the range, I would somehow "know" that the gun was going to go bang, and I would flinch pretty hardcore.

This^, and I have no idea why!!!!


To the OP: Do you push/flinch/whatever with a .22?

I don't know, I don't own a 22 pistol anymore. But that's another story...... I am inclined to say no.




Some of the stuff you guys talk about I have no idea what it means, but even at 61 I'm trying to learn.
SCD

[SC_Dave]

*****VIDEO AND PICTURE ADDED*****

1 15 Round Mag with 3 Random Snap Caps

B8 @ 7 Yards

Slow fire as you will see.

Hope this helps some of you help me further.

On this trip I changed some of the things I was doing. Before I was taking the slack out and slow, slow, slowly squeezing the trigger. I gathered from what some of you suggested this made me anticipate the break more and it was surprising me. This trip once I took up the slack and when the dot was where I wanted it I made a smooth pull to the rear without hesitation and without jerking the trigger. Or at least that's what I tried to do. I think things were better but not fixed.

Please have a look at this vid, the target pic corresponds with the vid and it's none too great IMO. As I mentioned there are 3 dummy rounds and you will see I am not smooth on the trigger and for the life of me I don't know what else to do to fix it.

You guys posted a lot of info and I appreciate it. I could have missed something or just didn't absorb it so don't blast me please.

Also the 3 holes in the far left side is where I pulled the target out of a notebook.

http://i.imgur.com/BZ5Mrq3.jpg?2 (http://imgur.com/BZ5Mrq3)


https://youtu.be/SGp2FUG6d_4

[Mr_White]

https://youtu.be/SGp2FUG6d_4

SC_Dave, these are just a couple of thoughts from looking at your video (particularly when you get to the first dummy) so take it FWIW.

It looks to me like you are 'pulling the trigger with your whole hand' to use Ben Stoeger's verbiage - moving your other strong hand fingers in addition to your trigger finger. The gun's movement when you get to the first dummy looks like more than I *think* you would get just from coarseness in the trigger press itself. A mental emphasis on isolating the trigger finger may help.

You really want to get rid of the support hand grip adjustments between shots. That's a general comment and maybe less applicable to the specific thing you are doing in the video, but still.

Not as specific to you, but a thought I am having on this whole discussion: The post-ignition push gets established subconsciously to bring the gun out of recoil after it has fired. That's some pretty specific timing, but the subconscious sure does develop it. I think pre-ignition push can happen, at least in part, when the conscious mind intrudes on that subconscious process and gets the shooter out of time with the gun and the trigger. Then recoil recovery either becomes less efficient (timing later than necessary), or manifests as a flinch (timing too early.) Conscious and artificial timing can lead to getting out of time with the gun and trigger, whether it's from being time focused on going faster or time focused on going slower. Instead the shot needs to be fired when everyone (shooter and gun together) is ready, but the subconscious is probably best as the controller of that.

[SC_Dave]

SC_Dave, these are just a couple of thoughts from looking at your video (particularly when you get to the first dummy) so take it FWIW.

It looks to me like you are 'pulling the trigger with your whole hand' to use Ben Stoeger's verbiage - moving your other strong hand fingers in addition to your trigger finger. The gun's movement when you get to the first dummy looks like more than I *think* you would get just from coarseness in the trigger press itself. A mental emphasis on isolating the trigger finger may help.

You really want to get rid of the support hand grip adjustments between shots. That's a general comment and maybe less applicable to the specific thing you are doing in the video, but still.

Not as specific to you, but a thought I am having on this whole discussion: The post-ignition push gets established subconsciously to bring the gun out of recoil after it has fired. That's some pretty specific timing, but the subconscious sure does develop it. I think pre-ignition push can happen, at least in part, when the conscious mind intrudes on that subconscious process and gets the shooter out of time with the gun and the trigger. Then recoil recovery either becomes less efficient (timing later than necessary), or manifests as a flinch (timing too early.) Conscious and artificial timing can lead to getting out of time with the gun and trigger, whether it's from being time focused on going faster or time focused on going slower. Instead the shot needs to be fired when everyone (shooter and gun together) is ready, but the subconscious is probably best as the controller of that.

This makes a lot of sense to me Mr White. I will concentrate on isolating my trigger finger. I'll work on not having to adjust my grip between shots as well. Truth be told I didn't realize I was doing it until I watched the video. Thanks very much for your advice.
SCD

[Mr_White]

SC_Dave, you're welcome and I hope it helps!

[Gio]

On this trip I changed some of the things I was doing. Before I was taking the slack out and slow, slow, slowly squeezing the trigger. I gathered from what some of you suggested this made me anticipate the break more and it was surprising me. This trip once I took up the slack and when the dot was where I wanted it I made a smooth pull to the rear without hesitation and without jerking the trigger. Or at least that's what I tried to do. I think things were better but not fixed.


I concur with Gabe's advice. In addition, the way you describe the part highlighted, you may still be having an issue with how you are pressing the trigger. You should strive to press from start to finish in one continuous motion without stopping after taking the slack up. You will find yourself jerking through the wall/break if you do this and it won't always be smooth. Also, "accept the wobble" of the dot, meaning don't try to press the trigger immediately when you think it's in the exact spot you want it. Let the dot naturally wobble on the target and work your trigger independently from that.

I use a trigger graph machine hooked to a Glock trigger that puts a visual graph of force over time on a chart to help provide a graphical depiction of what shooters are doing on the trigger. The most successful shooters I work with have a linearly increasing force/time line until the trigger breaks, regardless of whether they are shooting fast or slow. The faster they get, the steeper the slope is, but it stays relatively linear through the break.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, shooters that struggle with pushing shots low/left (for a righty) tend to display an inconsistent trigger press where the graph shows the force applied to be randomly increasing and decreasing until they finally hit the amount of force needed to break the shot. I can often see these shooters stop all rearward trigger motion for a few seconds before pressing again with significantly more force than they were using before they stopped moving their finger. This inconsistency will result in the kind of shot patterns you are seeing at 7 yds.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video with such a close up view, but it doesn't look like you are gripping hard enough with your support hand bc you are losing your grip between shots.

[SC_Dave]

I concur with Gabe's advice. In addition, the way you describe the part highlighted, you may still be having an issue with how you are pressing the trigger. You should strive to press from start to finish in one continuous motion without stopping after taking the slack up. You will find yourself jerking through the wall/break if you do this and it won't always be smooth. Also, "accept the wobble" of the dot, meaning don't try to press the trigger immediately when you think it's in the exact spot you want it. Let the dot naturally wobble on the target and work your trigger independently from that.

I use a trigger graph machine hooked to a Glock trigger that puts a visual graph of force over time on a chart to help provide a graphical depiction of what shooters are doing on the trigger. The most successful shooters I work with have a linearly increasing force/time line until the trigger breaks, regardless of whether they are shooting fast or slow. The faster they get, the steeper the slope is, but it stays relatively linear through the break.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, shooters that struggle with pushing shots low/left (for a righty) tend to display an inconsistent trigger press where the graph shows the force applied to be randomly increasing and decreasing until they finally hit the amount of force needed to break the shot. I can often see these shooters stop all rearward trigger motion for a few seconds before pressing again with significantly more force than they were using before they stopped moving their finger. This inconsistency will result in the kind of shot patterns you are seeing at 7 yds.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video with such a close up view, but it doesn't look like you are gripping hard enough with your support hand bc you are losing your grip between shots.


Thanks very much for this helpful information Gio! It makes sense to me and I will put this and the info from Gabe in my range notes for my next trip.

I want to be sure I understand fully the part in bold. Is it good practice to take up the slack and pause at the wall until I have a good sight picture? Or, should I not pause at the wall and press straight through it?

PS: I'm assuming this trigger graph machine is a high dollar item?
SCD

[JCS]

I concur with Gabe's advice. In addition, the way you describe the part highlighted, you may still be having an issue with how you are pressing the trigger. You should strive to press from start to finish in one continuous motion without stopping after taking the slack up. You will find yourself jerking through the wall/break if you do this and it won't always be smooth. Also, "accept the wobble" of the dot, meaning don't try to press the trigger immediately when you think it's in the exact spot you want it. Let the dot naturally wobble on the target and work your trigger independently from that.

I use a trigger graph machine hooked to a Glock trigger that puts a visual graph of force over time on a chart to help provide a graphical depiction of what shooters are doing on the trigger. The most successful shooters I work with have a linearly increasing force/time line until the trigger breaks, regardless of whether they are shooting fast or slow. The faster they get, the steeper the slope is, but it stays relatively linear through the break.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, shooters that struggle with pushing shots low/left (for a righty) tend to display an inconsistent trigger press where the graph shows the force applied to be randomly increasing and decreasing until they finally hit the amount of force needed to break the shot. I can often see these shooters stop all rearward trigger motion for a few seconds before pressing again with significantly more force than they were using before they stopped moving their finger. This inconsistency will result in the kind of shot patterns you are seeing at 7 yds.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video with such a close up view, but it doesn't look like you are gripping hard enough with your support hand bc you are losing your grip between shots.

So as the gun is cycling and recoil is occurring, do you let the trigger reset and "prep" the trigger at all? Or are you letting the trigger reset and when you get an acceptable sight picture are you pulling the trigger fully?

This is very good info. I also struggle with yanking shots and that makes a lot of sense. My biggest issue is pulling the trigger with all my fingers and not isolating the trigger finger. I think this is also me anticipating the recoil and clenching my hand.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr_White]

I concur with Gabe's advice. In addition, the way you describe the part highlighted, you may still be having an issue with how you are pressing the trigger. You should strive to press from start to finish in one continuous motion without stopping after taking the slack up. You will find yourself jerking through the wall/break if you do this and it won't always be smooth. Also, "accept the wobble" of the dot, meaning don't try to press the trigger immediately when you think it's in the exact spot you want it. Let the dot naturally wobble on the target and work your trigger independently from that.

I use a trigger graph machine hooked to a Glock trigger that puts a visual graph of force over time on a chart to help provide a graphical depiction of what shooters are doing on the trigger. The most successful shooters I work with have a linearly increasing force/time line until the trigger breaks, regardless of whether they are shooting fast or slow. The faster they get, the steeper the slope is, but it stays relatively linear through the break.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, shooters that struggle with pushing shots low/left (for a righty) tend to display an inconsistent trigger press where the graph shows the force applied to be randomly increasing and decreasing until they finally hit the amount of force needed to break the shot. I can often see these shooters stop all rearward trigger motion for a few seconds before pressing again with significantly more force than they were using before they stopped moving their finger. This inconsistency will result in the kind of shot patterns you are seeing at 7 yds.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video with such a close up view, but it doesn't look like you are gripping hard enough with your support hand bc you are losing your grip between shots.

Those are very interesting comments about the trigger graph machine. I've heard about that before but not with as much detail - thanks for posting that! What you describe matches the mental construct I have about what a continuous increase in pressure on a trigger looks like graphed.

---

SC_Dave and 1776United:

Continuous increase in pressure on a Glock trigger (others too, but Glock especially) can LOOK very deceptive from the outside, since the finger and trigger appear to stop moving when the slack ends and the pressure wall begins. That doesn't mean that the increase in pressure has stopped. The increase in pressure can be shallow or it can be steep or somewhere in between, but as long as the pressure is always going up, that's the main thing. I suspect that the rate and shape of increase is very much what describes different levels of care in the trigger. This also gives rise to little subtleties that aren't how you'd tell a beginner to do it, but people who go deeper will need to attend to sooner or later - like pressing the trigger NOW in reaction to acceptable gun-target alignment, but avoiding moving the gun when doing so. There may be instances (a lot of times driven by the physical circumstances surrounding engaging a given target) where a person gets on the trigger and through the slack, then stops increasing pressure because the shot is no good anymore, but then it becomes good again and the press restarts from where the finger currently is - the pressure wall. The key difference is that more skill can allow the continuous increase in pressure from right there, whereas less skill may lead directly to jerking the trigger and gun.

I wish I were in the same room as you guys so I could press on your arm as if it were the trigger, and it would be pretty easy for you to feel what Gio and I are referring to.

[GJM]

Advantages of manipulating the trigger during recoil, is the process of doing that does not disturb the sights, like if you worked the trigger after the sights have settled, and it takes less movement to press the trigger from the wall, resulting in a faster shot. This is as taught by Rob Leatham and Manny Bragg.

[SC_Dave]

Those are very interesting comments about the trigger graph machine. I've heard about that before but not with as much detail - thanks for posting that! What you describe matches the mental construct I have about what a continuous increase in pressure on a trigger looks like graphed.

---

SC_Dave and 1776United:

Continuous increase in pressure on a Glock trigger (others too, but Glock especially) can LOOK very deceptive from the outside, since the finger and trigger appear to stop moving when the slack ends and the pressure wall begins. That doesn't mean that the increase in pressure has stopped. The increase in pressure can be shallow or it can be steep or somewhere in between, but as long as the pressure is always going up, that's the main thing. I suspect that the rate and shape of increase is very much what describes different levels of care in the trigger. This also gives rise to little subtleties that aren't how you'd tell a beginner to do it, but people who go deeper will need to attend to sooner or later - like pressing the trigger NOW in reaction to acceptable gun-target alignment, but avoiding moving the gun when doing so. There may be instances (a lot of times driven by the physical circumstances surrounding engaging a given target) where a person gets on the trigger and through the slack, then stops increasing pressure because the shot is no good anymore, but then it becomes good again and the press restarts from where the finger currently is - the pressure wall. The key difference is that more skill can allow the continuous increase in pressure from right there, whereas less skill may lead directly to jerking the trigger and gun.

I wish I were in the same room as you guys so I could press on your arm as if it were the trigger, and it would be pretty easy for you to feel what Gio and I are referring to.

The info just keeps getting better. I'm soaking this in like a sponge and hope I can retain it. Concerning what's in bold, I do too!

Thanks again Gabe!

[Mr_White]

You're welcome SC_Dave.

Here's something you can try out in dry fire. Make sure you are paying attention, via the sights, to gun movement when the trigger breaks. Some people find that with the Glock trigger, you gotta get completely over and through the speed bump that is the pressure wall. Try starting with your finger on the face of the trigger with no pressure, and then press all the way through the trigger pretty quickly - try to do so with a continuous increase in pressure like we have been talking about, and isolating the trigger finger. Don't be slow and careful. Don't let the pressure wall 'stop' you. Almost pretend like there is no pressure wall there at all. Get all the way through the trigger in one continuous motion. You may have to try it a bunch of times to start with, but you will probably find that on some of those presses, you got right through the trigger much more aggressively than usual, and the gun didn't move and you may not have really been very aware of the pressure wall. Those are the presses you want to duplicate.

[SC_Dave]

You're welcome SC_Dave.

Here's something you can try out in dry fire. Make sure you are paying attention, via the sights, to gun movement when the trigger breaks. Some people find that with the Glock trigger, you gotta get completely over and through the speed bump that is the pressure wall. Try starting with your finger on the face of the trigger with no pressure, and then press all the way through the trigger pretty quickly - try to do so with a continuous increase in pressure like we have been talking about, and isolating the trigger finger. Don't be slow and careful. Don't let the pressure wall 'stop' you. Almost pretend like there is no pressure wall there at all. Get all the way through the trigger in one continuous motion. You may have to try it a bunch of times to start with, but you will probably find that on some of those presses, you got right through the trigger much more aggressively than usual, and the gun didn't move and you may not have really been very aware of the pressure wall. Those are the presses you want to duplicate.

I'll begin working on that tonight, without fail. I have light bulbs going off in my head. What you are saying could be, may be, why I tend to have a tighter group when I shoot a little faster string. I'm not trying to be as precise with my shots, so I'm not anguishing over the perfect shot. I'm working through the wall in one motion I believe. I'm not saying I shoot great when shooting fast but maybe I'm more fluid when I do. ??? Does this make sense?

I'm lucky enough to work at a gun friendly job even though we are not in the gun industry. They even let me go to the range during the day once or twice a week. I have a blue gun on my desk and today even though it has no working trigger as you know I have been working my trigger finger back and forth concentrating on isolating it from the rest of my hand. It's at least giving me some repetitions.
SCD

[Mr_White]

I'll begin working on that tonight, without fail. I have light bulbs going off in my head. What you are saying could be, may be, why I tend to have a tighter group when I shoot a little faster string. I'm not trying to be as precise with my shots, so I'm not anguishing over the perfect shot. I'm working through the wall in one motion I believe. I'm not saying I shoot great when shooting fast but maybe I'm more fluid when I do. ??? Does this make sense?

YES - Get out of your own way, so to speak.


I'm lucky enough to work at a gun friendly job even though we are not in the gun industry. They even let me go to the range during the day once or twice a week. I have a blue gun on my desk and today even though it has no working trigger as you know I have been working my trigger finger back and forth concentrating on isolating it from the rest of my hand. It's at least giving me some repetitions.
SCD

Awesome! I wonder if they'd let you have a SIRT at work...

[SC_Dave]

YES - Get out of your own way, so to speak.



Awesome! I wonder if they'd let you have a SIRT at work...

Absolutely. Most of us carry daily at work. Not uncommon to see pistols on peoples desk.

[Gio]

So as the gun is cycling and recoil is occurring, do you let the trigger reset and "prep" the trigger at all? Or are you letting the trigger reset and when you get an acceptable sight picture are you pulling the trigger fully?

This is very good info. I also struggle with yanking shots and that makes a lot of sense. My biggest issue is pulling the trigger with all my fingers and not isolating the trigger finger. I think this is also me anticipating the recoil and clenching my hand.

As the gun is cycling, you should be letting the trigger out/reset and then working back through the slack. You want this to be a continuous motion though where you are pressing through your next shot as your sight picture settles without your trigger finger coming to a complete stop if you can avoid it.

[Gio]

Here's another drill to try for both live fire and dry fire:

Dry fire:
-Have your gun out on a small target (like a light switch or 2" circle or 1/6th USPSA target) with your finger resting on the trigger but without taking any slack out and set your timer to a random start time. As soon as the timer beeps, press the trigger as fast as you can and observe what happens with the sights. Work this several hundred reps until you can do it without the sight moving significantly. Note with a glock with no snap cap, there will always be a slight vibration of the sight when the striker hits the breach face on an empty chamber, but the sight shouldn't move off alignment or target. Focus on gripping so hard that it doesn't matter how "rough" you press the trigger, you can't pull the sights off target.

-Also, work this drill 1 handed strong hand only and weak hand only. This will exaggerate problems with your trigger press that doing the drill two handed won't highlight.

Live Fire:
-Do the same drill live fire and focus on how fast you can break the shot after the beep. See if you can get down into the .15-.20 range consistently. Aim at a 2" dot at 5 yds. If you're pressing the trigger the same in live fire as you do in dry fire, you should be able to keep most shots in the 2" circle even at that reaction speed.

[Jay Cunningham]

I really think Ball & Dummy drills can be very detrimental if applied willy-nilly as diagnostics.

Physicality that seems to manifest itself as "flinch" during B&D can be perfectly appropriate ignition-push and does not need to be "fixed" by dry fire or whatever.

[GJM]

Bill Rogers use ball and dummy drills, but differently. He alternates ball and dummy, so the shooter knows exactly when there is the ball and the dummy, and that is part of his Intermediate/Advanced class curriculum.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've seen B&D used as an adjunct to "Surprise Break" trigger manipulation and it isn't a good way to teach practical shooting.

I've seen better results with an emphasis on grip and aggressive trigger manipulation.

I've seen good shooters get brainwashed into thinking they suck by stupid application of B&D drills when they are performing perfectly natural ignition/push.

[GJM]

Without intending to, I commonly induce ball and dummy into my PCC practice sessions, by unloading the carbine when I put it down to go tape or load magazines, and occasionally forgetting to chamber a round on the next shooting string. I press the trigger smoothly, and then shortly after, with no recoil to counteract, do this convulsion that looks like it would jerk the round into the dirt below the target.

[SC_Dave]

I've seen B&D used as an adjunct to "Surprise Break" trigger manipulation and it isn't a good way to teach practical shooting.

I've seen better results with an emphasis on grip and aggressive trigger manipulation.

I've seen good shooters get brainwashed into thinking they suck by stupid application of B&D drills when they are performing perfectly natural ignition/push.


Without intending to, I commonly induce ball and dummy into my PCC practice sessions, by unloading the carbine when I put it down to go tape or load magazines, and occasionally forgetting to chamber a round on the next shooting string. I press the trigger smoothly, and then shortly after, with no recoil to counteract, do this convulsion that looks like it would jerk the round into the dirt below the target.

Well these are certainly food for thought and a differently way of looking at it that makes sense.
SCD

[SC_Dave]

I believe some things are coming around for me. I'm not there yet but some of the things I learned in this thread has help me a lot. Though the result you see in the pics below are nowhere near most of you guys I can't tell you how stoked I am right now. Below are all of the targets from todays range trip except for one that I lost on the targets trip back to me.

All were fairly slow fire except for the one that says rapid fire, and by rapid fire I mean I shot as fast as I could re-aquire the sight picture. No particular number of rounds in the targets Some were just what was left in the mag at the time.

I feel real good at this point on what I need to continue to work on. I found myself concentrating some much on technique I forgot about the flinch. One time I started to anticipate the blast/recoil of the indoor range and just stopped completely and started over. It helped.

Thanks a lot for everyones help! I'm sure I'll need more later.



14783
14784
14785
14786
14787
14788
14789

[Gio]

Those targets look good.

[spinmove_]

Good progress, dude! Keep doing exactly that.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Irelander]

Great thread. Thanks for asking the good questions Dave and all the great advise from the pros.

[SC_Dave]

Great thread. Thanks for asking the good questions Dave and all the great advise from the pros.

You are welcome my friend. I am trying to get better and I like learning from folks that know more than I do
SCD

[SC_Dave]

OK, so at 25 it's not good. This is living proof I don't just post my good targets. My RMR dot at 25 shakes worse that a dog shitting a sand spur and I don't know what to do about it. I have noticed marked improvement out to 15 but as usual any shortcomings show a 25 I guess. Not sure where to go with this, I'm all over the place........

Thoughts? Direction?

Thanks!

http://i.imgur.com/WC6AFyV.jpg?5
http://i.imgur.com/dGIhKln.jpg?4
http://i.imgur.com/ZyLHu9W.jpg?4
http://i.imgur.com/oFvxa1g.jpg?4
http://i.imgur.com/lZLBRki.jpg?4

[scjbash]

It's far from the only reason for it but the most common fix I see for people shaking is to back off the strong hand grip just a bit. One of my friends shakes so bad it looks like he has tremors if he grips too hard with his strong hand.

[Sal Picante]

If you're holding one handed, learning to breathe to effect a "respiratory pause" is huge.
25 yard 1-hand shooting is TOUGH. All the IPSC guys bitch about that bullseye shit, but inside, they're scared...

[MGW]

Don't try to hold the dot, or sights, perfectly still. Let you sights circle your point of aim as you press the trigger.

Old school bullseye shooter talk about letting the sights do a figure eight around the point of aim. I could never pull that off but allowing my sights to gently circle my POA helped a lot.

[SC_Dave]

3-31-17 range trip.

Went back today and only shot 25 yds. I relaxed my grip, locked my support hand wrist, relaxed my arms.

I certainly don't thinks these targets are good but I do think they are somewhat better than the last ones I posted. I'm thinking I need to continues with this method but want to hear from ou guys that have any other suggestions for me please.

No particular number of rounds per target. Usually what ever I had left in the magazine. I will tell you that I had some flyers though.

This first target is the first target I shot. Cold.

http://i.imgur.com/JMSWS1c.jpg?1

This one is second.

http://i.imgur.com/pOpJzCc.jpg?1

These 2 below were the last 2 I forgot to take pics of the ones in between before I tore them off.

http://i.imgur.com/cSFXP2H.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/Ug5rJ4w.jpg?1